Welcome to Talking Dateline. Today, we're going to be talking about the episode called A Life, Interrupted. If you haven't listened to the show yet, it's the episode right below this one on the list of podcasts. So go there, listen to it, or if you want to watch it, you can stream it on Peacock, and then you can come right back here. When you come back, I've got some questions for Dennis. He's been following the case for five years now, and he had that big interview with Fotis Doulos. Dennis also has an extra clip he wants to play for us from an interview that didn't make it into the show. And later, we're going to answer some of your questions about the show from social media, so stay tuned for that. And with that, let's start Talking Dateland. Dennis, thank you so much for being here and for discussing such a powerful, powerful episode. I mean, that one just got me. It was just so sad and just so incredible that these people who just appeared to have everything could go down such a dark path.

Andrea, I could never get past the big picture here, which is all about the children. This is a woman who was the mother of five children. There's just devastation and tragedy on both sides of this thing. I'm struck at the end of this, Andrea. There's still so many questions, so many things we don't know. Where is Jennifer's body? Will they ever find it?

I mean, that was one of the things I I was wondering as I was watching the show is, where is Jennifer? And are there working theories out there by the police, by prosecutors, by anyone as to what might have happened to her body?

They never could come up with the whereabouts of the body. And I'm not even sure that the body was brought back to the Farmington area. Clearly, the cleanup bags were the stuff from the garage because that's what gets dumped in those fascinating videotapes. But do we know that her body came back to Farmington? I don't think do. And here's something else, and this is totally Dennis speculation. I would not be surprised sometime in the future if it was revealed that there was somebody in the garage helping photos. And I go back to the the the the only time I met photos, we were at his house, where he lived with Michelle Tricones and had lived with Jennifer. And I was struck at what a fastidious guy this was. He was all starched shirts and jeans with creases in it. And I just couldn't imagine him getting all bloody and messed up.

Yeah. And you talked about just how put together he was. I noticed even his shirt in your interview is monogrammed. Everything was just perfect.

You know what? He was very competent. He wasn't startled at all. He's a salesman. I mean, he could talk his way, it seems, out of anything.

Yeah. And so you get this big interview with him. He kept saying, I'm not allowed to talk about that. I'm not allowed to talk about that. That's frustrating as an interviewer when you're trying to get answers and the person is not really saying a whole lot.

I can tell you about the marriage. I can tell you character-ref stories about Jennifer, but I'm not getting it into anything that happens on May 24th and beyond, which is, of course, everything you want to know.

Right. But of course, we will never turn down an interview with someone if it gives us a glimpse into the life. You want to get something.

I have a theory that the audience wants to hear how he speaks. How does he address the problem in his life? We've all talked to accused, and I never expect anyone to say, Murphy, you got me. I'm glad you asked me that question. Now I'm going to tell you just how and why I killed her and where her body is. We're not going to get that. But I think the audience should hear how the guy addresses the world.

Just to see him, hear him, how he talks about his wife. Our audience, they are like their own little slews. They like to see body language. They like to see if there's tears, are they real? They have big opinions.

I have those same questions. So much of this is about body language. But he was a very composed guy. He was already in the tsunami at that point.

Yeah. One of the things I didn't realize was just how little money he had because it's like a house of cards, right? Because you look at the house he lives in, the properties he's building, and you think, wow, this guy's rich.

He was really relying on Banco de Jennifer. Jennifer's father was the bank. He staked photos in all of these properties. And then when the house sold, they divide up the profits. And then he hit a bad spot, and he was really on the edge. Now, I mean, there was a cynical theory that one of the state's attorneys had offered early on, and then she had the money and he didn't. The money went to the children. There are a whole bunch of trust funds that are set up. Maybe the way the theory, if you're saying the motive here is to get money, is that he would be able to get into the kids' trust fund and refinance himself. I don't know. I just leave that out there. They talked about it. They never offered it as a true motive in trial. Yeah.

So this was a very long trial. How many weeks did this last?

I think it went seven weeks start to finish.

That's a long one.

As dramatic as the events are, it was a pretty tedious trial. There was a lot of long slogging through States technical evidence and CSI type stuff. So much of this comes down to technology, Andrew. When you go to that Hartford Police Camera Command Center, they're operating 700 cameras. That was incredible, by the way. This is like Star Trek.

I felt like I was watching an episode of NCIS Los Angeles or something. I mean, it was so cool. It didn't even look real, almost.

And that's where Hartford law enforcement people go to work. They watch the city. They're watching every car go by. And lo and behold, here comes photos in his Ford pickup truck. And it's say good night. When he shows up on those Hartford security cameras dumping bag after bag, he's done at that point.

And what is he thinking? He doesn't think there's cameras in a city? For a seemingly smart, educated man, really dumb criminal.

I said, What does he got your phone? He says, I'm proud of that. I'm happy with that. I don't have anything to hide. I said, I mean, they started looking where your phone was, and it's hip-hopping around Albany Avenue in Hartford. What's going on? And then the whole thing was revealed. He was disposing of bloodied garments from his late wife.

When you get into the Michelle Triconis aspect of this, his girlfriend, in order to believe that Michelle was involved in all of this, you have to believe that Fotis killed Jennifer.

Yes. It's a house that Jack Bell theory the prosecution has to offer. A, the Jennifer is in fact dead. B, that Fotis, her husband, was the one who killed her. And because it's the Michelle Triconis trial, jurors, you're going to have to decide whether Michelle, the girlfriend, knew about this in advance and did nothing.

And it's like you don't envy this jury with trying to decide what to do with Michelle Triconis because it is- Just look at the charging, Andy.

I throw it out to you. Guilty of conspiracy to commit murder. That is legal word salad that you got to break down concept by concept. For laymen to take that on, it What does it mean? What are you asking me to do?

The part that I really get is the aftermath, right? That they accused her of knowing what he had done. She's helping him. They're driving around, dumping the trash.

It's circumstantial, but you can go to the video. You her to get it.

Right. But the part that I didn't totally understand was the the conspiracy. So this jury believe that she was in on it from the very beginning?

Yes, they have to believe that to come up with a guilty verdict, which they did. That was the a difficult thing to wrap your brain around a conspiracy to commit murder. They never argued that she was in the garage, but that she knew about it in advance. She said that she's up at the house in Farmington, has said goodbye to photos. But what happens during the course of nine hours of interview, she gets in deeper and deeper trouble the more she talks. She's got a very detailed timeline of the day, which is another part of this trial. She and Fotis, four or five days after Jennifer has gone missing, sit down with a piece of paper and a pen, and they each write down, 7:00 AM, we did this. And nowhere on there does she say they tore down Albany out, dropping garbage bags.

They feel like the absence of that information, the omission, was a big red flag.

We the cops, have been talking to you, Michelle, for days now. Why didn't you tell us that back when? Now we think you're lying. When you lie to cops, you got trouble.

What do you think the most important piece of evidence was as far as what got her on the conspiracy charge?

The phone call. There was a phone call that was fielded from Greece. The jury has been told, Look, photos has his friend, Andreas, in Greece, agreed to call him at a set time in the morning. By the theory, he's going to be down in New Cana, Connecticut, killing his wife at that hour. But the phone call would be an alibi for So the question became, who fielded that call? There are two people there. They're supposed to be Mouwini, his attorney, and Michelle, his girlfriend. And they say, Michelle took the call, lasted 17 seconds, and that was evidence, according to the state, that she was in on this. Do you buy it? I don't know.

Yeah, because I was going to say he could have just told her, Oh, my gosh, I forgot my phone. Like afterwards or whatever, she could have just seen his phone ringing, answered it.

But that is the Dynamite evidence of the single phone call that shows up on the logs. What was going on with that? Michelle, what in the world did you think you were doing? What did you think was going on?

So you and so many others were on verdict watch. This verdict did not come in right away.

Just to take you behind the curtain of what has to happen, we're on target to do a two-hour show on Friday, and the jury has just gotten started their deliberations on Tuesday. They're out Wednesday. Thursday, they're still out. So we arrive very curious on Friday morning, wondering what we're going to do. I had a backup story that was ready to go, and I didn't know whether it was going to go. And then at 11 o'clock, the jury knocks And they're coming in. On a Friday. From the time the verdict was announced until we rolled Dateland on the East Coast, it was 10 hours, and we had to pull it all together.

Big shout out to your producer, Lynn Keller, and of course, everyone else who worked on the show. But Lynn has been on top of this story from the beginning. She is aces. I talked to her on Thursday, the Thursday before the verdict, and I said, Tomorrow, you're either getting a verdict or you're getting a deadlock jury. That's it. I said, Mark my words It's, you will get one of those two things tomorrow. And I was right. I'm sure the viewers just appreciated it that you're giving them this story in real-time. This is very soon after.

And then you step back and you realize, again, it is about the children on all sides here. Yeah, it's very, very important. And they're doing well, Andrew. We asked the nosy question to, how are the kids doing? And they said they're growing up to be fine young people. They're on course. They're on target.

They're teenagers now. Gosh, every time they showed those pictures with Jennifer and the five kids, I would get so upset.

Oh, my gosh. I was thinking of you and your family in those same pictures. Oh my gosh.

These stories aren't about us, but I could not help but see all the similarities with Jennifer and me, which was really eerie as I'm watching it because she lived 15 minutes from me. This woman was a mother of five. I, at the time of this crime, had five children. I'm thinking, imagine if we lost one of our friends like that, just how much that would devastate this town.

She suffered just a horrible fate.

Yeah. The title is so fitting, A Life, Interrupted, because She had so much more life to live. She was going to watch these five beautiful children grow up. And even though this had gotten so bitter with photos, her fresh start was either there or it was coming. I mean, to take her away from those kids, to take someone's mother away so selfishly, for what? If he did this for money, was it really worth it? Now you're They're dead. Now Michelle's in a... Going to prison.

She's lost her daughter. It's just ugly. And one of the hideous interludes on our way to court, Andrea, was the first attorney who was on the case who suggested, shamelessly, that she was responsible for her own disappearance. She said, Look, she's a writer. She's got a manuscript in her trunk that's never been published. And you know what? It's not unlike the story of Gone Girl. Do you remember that? Where the woman, that very popular book in the movie that frames the husband for the killing.

Oh, yeah. I mean, that was hugely popular, that book. I've seen it multiple times, actually. It's a great movie, great book, but I don't buy it.

Team Jennifer was just absolutely outraged that this lawyer would come forward and offer this, is that she's doing it in a cynical way to get revenge back on her husband.

From everything we've heard, Jennifer would never do that to her children.

I thought maybe the most interesting witness was the nanny. She dearly loves her employer, Jennifer, and she tells amazing stories about watching that household just disintegrate. I mean, when you talk about bringing Jennifer back to life, showing who this person was, who photos was, the dynamics between them, I thought it was just you had to watch between your fingers.

Yeah, and she She was wearing that necklace with the five on it? Yes. For the five children. She was wearing it in court. From what I understand, she's still- She- With those children?

She is still the nanny. She is still watching over those kids. That's incredible. Thank God. The kids are in the care of Jennifer's 88-year-old mother living in Manhattan. But that nanny shows up for work every day and gets the kids up and running and off to school. She is the surrogate mother.

And you know what? They need that stability. They need something because of everything they've been through. Thank goodness that that one woman is a constant in their life.

I don't know what that family would have done without her.

Yeah. And the friends, you talked about the nanny. The friends also painted such an amazing picture of Jennifer.

Well, it was interesting to meet her friends. There was a support group that came together, and they did it for themselves as much as anyone. They were a Friends of Jennifer group, and they'd known Jennifer in various points of their lives. These women, some of them knew her from her Manhattan years. Some of them knew her as a college friend, the gym partner, Book Clubs, and they all said, You have to show up for her at this point.

I know that you have an extra clip from, would they call it Jennifer's Army?

Jennifer's Army, yeah.

Yeah. So we're going to listen to that clip.

I think it should be noted that some of us met each other only as of this trial because we're not all from the same era of Jennifer's life. I think it's-So you all carry, I'm thinking, different Jennifer's in your mind. Yeah, that's a great I'm trying to put it. There are the different Jennifer's, but there's always the same core Jennifer. But she's what brought us all together, certainly kept us together through the experience of this trial. Jennifer's father, Hill, always said, You got to show up. You got to show show up for people. You show up in person.

Why is that so important, do you think, Carrie?

Well, I believe that if you can show up in person in 3D, you do so. I think there's something to be said for sharing physical space with other people. I think that the prosecutors could feel our presence. We were literally behind them.

I'm struck by Carrie's point that you're there in 3D at a time when you can watch a streaming video of the trial in your jammies and on the devices. You don't need to show up.

We do. This is a huge community of individuals trying to come together to support not only Jennifer, the Farber family, and those five children.

We've been reaching out to that circle of friends for years and years, and it was the leader of the group and said, Can you introduce us to someone else, Carrie? Who can be a character witness for your dear missing friend? It wasn't until the last day, they all felt comfortable with it, and they told us a wonderful story. It's though they had a celebration of life on camera us.

Yeah, I'm so glad they did that.

And as the wise Carrie says, and you got to do it in three day. Doing it on streaming isn't enough. You need to be in the courtroom behind the prosecutors as they're talking to the jury.

Yeah. And that's always really powerful when you have that show of force there for the victim, just to show how much this person mattered, because the jury needs Jennifer to come alive for them. And I do feel like in this case, that Jennifer has not been forgotten.

As I said to one of the women, I do subscribe to the theory that we live as long as someone can still remember us. They said, Yes, that's why we're here.

All right, so there were a lot of questions from viewers, so I'm just going to run through a few of them here. Sonja Linnco said that she saw that you were wearing a purple sweater, Jennifer's Favorite Color. And she was wondering if that was on purpose at all, because Jennifer's army was wearing their Purple ribbons.

I did not know that Jennifer's Favorite Color was purple until one of the women at the table said that. And she said, And you've got on Purple. I am the worst apparel correspondent in American television. I get most of my clothes at Costco and infrequently at that. But I happened to be in Baltimore, and there was a men's shop around the corner, and I said, Look, it's freezing here. I need a little lightweight I bought that sweater, wore it for the first time, but no, it has nothing to do with Jennifer. I wouldn't mind if it did, but I was unaware.

Maybe there was some divine intervention working there as to why you chose that purple sweater on that day. We talked about the gone girl theory, Dana San, 88. She says that the gone girl theory is such an insult to Jennifer's family.

I could barely hold it in. I'm sitting there talking to the lawyer as he's retailing this story, which is absolutely absurd.

When you have such a loving mother, it's insulting. So Jinnar, 2008, would have loved to have seen Fotis stand trial and said, Do you think if Fotis was there to stand trial, that Michelle's verdict or trial may have been different?

I can't imagine how that dynamic changes. She's still going to be charged with conspiracy to commit murder. But I was sitting behind the sergeant who did the main investigation of this thing. We were both watching the closing arguments together, and he was angry that he had lost the chance to try Fotisdoulas. They really wanted to get him. The trial, to me, it seemed it was the trial of Fotisdoulas. At least half of it was the case that they would have argued.

As we said earlier, to get Michelle, you needed to prove that Fotisdoul did this.

Hey, she's dead. B, he killed her. C, Michelle was in on it.

Joanne GVS says, Someone should have explained to Fotis that wearing all black only works when it's dark. Did he really think he'd be hidden in plain sight? Like that?

I don't know how people can think that they're not going to be showing up in front of somebody's camera. There's just so many lenses and so many recordings going on. How did he think he was not going to be seen?

He was not a Dateland viewer, clearly. No. Or else he would have known. So Bibi Hankins says, Please update us on the status of Fotos' attorney, also charged in some way with Jennifer's murder.

She's referring to Kent Mouwini. Yeah. He is a very out-of-focus background figure all through this thing, even at trial. He was on the witness list for both the prosecution and the defense, but they never called him. They thought that he served as the alibi witness, just as Michelle had. He's home in the office that day. It photos his house. He's sitting around fielding a phone call. That is pretty much the charge against him, but he's still waiting trial. He's still out there in the wings.

Do you know what his charge is?

The Dynamite charge, a conspiracy to commit murder.

Mike and Triconis. So do you know when he's going to be going to court?

No, they don't have a trial date for him, but he's going to be in that jurisdiction, and they got to look at the results of the first trial with Michelle.

Did you ever find out anything with Michelle Triconis as far as if they offered her a plea deal or if she would spill the beans that she could get full immunity and photos would take the fall?

I think if she had delivered a body, if she knew where it was, she would have traded in a jumpsuit for the next chapter of her life. You see her in drone footage walking cops all around the estate and into the woods. And by her account, her lawyer's account, she's helping them. But yeah, I mean, she could have done herself a lot of good if there indeed was more story to be told and they would have cut her a deal.

Yeah, or even if she just said, Look, I don't know where the body is, but I can point the finger at him. I mean, they may have felt that they had enough without her, but she certainly could have probably gotten a better deal if she became their star witness.

Her defense all along was, I know nothing. I don't know what he was doing. And her attorney says, Anytime you try and put her in the frame and tell stories about her, it's all speculation. What did she say to the collar from Greece? What did she do at the car wash? What is she doing driving that white vehicle back and forth from the houses? What's the deal with the smoke in the fireplace? I mean, there's a lot of stuff that she could have given up but didn't.

What a tragic, tragic story.

It's a solemn and tragic story, and you always go back to the children. And then beyond another step, the tragic story of Jennifer. What a wonderful person she was, by all accounts.

Well, you told it so well, Dennis. Well, thank you, Maria. And your whole team.

It was a team event. It took a village. Yeah.

That is our talking dateland for this week. Thanks so much, Dennis, and thanks to everyone for listening to us. Remember, if you have any questions for us about our stories, reach out to us on social at datelandnbc, and we'll see you on Fridays on Dateland.