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Hi, everybody. I'm Josh Mankowitz, and we are talking Dateland. Our guests today are Keith Morison.

Hi, Keith. How do you do? Nice to meet you, Josh. Wow.

Starting off great right from the beginning. Shane Bishop, Dateland producer and producer of this episode and many, many other Dateland episodes.

Yes, we should say producer extraordinaire when we refer to Shane.

I think that means old, but I'm happy to be here with you, too. Thank you.

It uses most of the letters in elderly. Yeah, that's true. This episode is called True Confession. Now, if you have not listened to it already, or if you haven't seen it on television, it is right below this in the list of podcasts that you just chose from. So go there, listen to it, or you can watch it on television or stream it on Peacock, and then come back here. When you come back, today we're going to have some questions for Keith and for Shane Bishop, who has been following this case for more than a decade. And Keith also has an extra from his interview with Chris Tapp that you're going to play for us. Then also, we are going to answer some questions of yours about this episode that came in on social media. So hang around for that. So let's talk Dateland. Okay, so what an episode. I didn't know the story. So when I'm watching it, I'm thinking like, they're exonerating him too soon. What's in the rest of this story? He's going to commit another crime or it's going to turn out he actually did do it. I keep thinking like, Wait, this thing's over with 15 minutes to go.

I couldn't imagine what was coming next, and what was coming next was just one whipsawing twist after another.

It's an amazing story. As you said, Shane and Tess dragged me along for over a decade as we covered this story. It's a whole saga. It went in a direction that was both satisfying and extremely disconcerting. I agree with you, Josh. It turned into a powerful story that we didn't see coming.

How did we hear about this story originally?

I grew up in rural Montana and loved to read tiny newspapers, and I was reading some Idaho newspaper. I'm not even sure which one it was anymore. There was a story about a mother of a homicide victim trying to get the guy out who had been convicted of killing her daughter. I just thought that was the weirdest thing I'd ever heard of. That's how it started.

That, I have to say, is something I've not heard of before.

No, it's the most extraordinary thing. The driving force behind this whole case was this unbelievable woman who Whose persuasive power, whose determination to honor her daughter who was murdered, was such that she had police departments and politicians and innocence projects quaking at her feet.

What was Carol's relationship like with police all those years.

She was the person pounding on their doors. She was the one who wouldn't stop calling, trying to get the attention of anybody who would listen. Where other people might give it a lot of effort over a long time, she gave it complete effort over decades. I feel for her tremendously. She's the one who solved the riddle before anybody else. She's the one who was experimenting with familial DNA before almost anybody else in the world was even aware it existed. She was the one who demanded of people who were completely intransigent, that they somehow revised their way of thinking about things. And I've never met anybody else in my life with that determination and that, frankly, personal power.

It does illustrate something that we see all the time on Dataline, which is families that agitate and families that won't stop. They don't always get results, but they got a better chance of getting results, and that certainly was the case here.

They do. If you're a detective and you're working 10 different cases, and one of them is calling you up every day, and you have to go back and check to see what the latest is, it's more likely you're going to make some progress on that one.

This also is one of the things that is familiar to Dateland viewers, which is, Carol's life split right in two by this, the life she had when her daughter was alive, and then the quest she went on afterward. And one of the things that frequently happens is then that quest comes to an end. Somebody gets arrested. In this case, somebody got arrested, imprisoned, then released, and somebody else arrested. And now what do you do? What's next? This is not going to occupy your life anymore. So what does occupy your life?

It's a tough one. It really is.

I think everybody who knows Carol and loves her and cares about or worries about that.

This is a story of a bunch of things. It's Carol's story. It's also the story of some terrible police work, followed by some pretty good police work. How'd they miss a suspect living right across the street?

Well, the suspect moved away. He left. They had to collect his DNA. You know, they forgot all about him. Yeah.

Like you said in the episode, Keith, it's police work 101. His name's in the file the whole time from the day after. No alibi. He lives right there. Proximity.

Yeah.

Right across the street. Yeah.

I mean, they were looking at other things.

Well, they were. They were concentrating on a theory of what happened here. The theory was that this group of people who would hang out of the river, since she, the victim, hung out of the river, too, that somehow they turned on her, and one of them raped her and killed her.

And that's not a crazy idea. I mean, that's the crowd she hung out with. That's those are the people you should be looking at. Turns out, those people are not living lives completely free of contact with police.

And it's a mistake that was made over and over the case as the years passed, because whatever detective was in charge focused mainly on pulling in the River kids and re-interviewing them. Destiny must know some name. Jair must know some name. And nobody knew anything.

Sure.

And Destiny, of course, was somebody who said some things because she thought that was what she was supposed to say, and they so locked on to that statement.

And that's another example of police work gone wrong here, which is you're supposed to examine that thing, not just what people tell you, but whether or not you think they're telling you the truth or whether they're telling you what they think you want to hear. But let's now praise the fact that they were open to admitting that they had made a mistake, because as you guys know, having covered cases like this before, frequently, you'll find prosecutors and investigators who, when confronted with evidence that someone else was involved in the crime, their answer is either, no, they weren't, or, okay, well, they were a co-conspirator of the person we already locked up, but we're not letting anybody out. And in this case, they were definitely open to seeing a mistake that they had made and then going out and getting the right person.

Well, let's keep in mind, they kept a foot in both worlds. There was quite a bit of time spent with Brian Dripps asking him if he was alone or if someone was with him or if he knew this Chris Tapp fellow other than what he'd seen on Dateland. So Bill Squires, the guy who manned the door at the crime scene in '96, and then turns out to be the captain who solves the case, he still believed up through that interview until it was ruled out that Tapp was there.

It speaks to how difficult it is to unloge a belief once it's firmly established in a person's brand.

That is the problem with wrongful convictions, which is it requires undoing so much. I got to say, you did such a great job in getting these people to talk. Okay, Carol is going to want to talk. She was on a mission, right? Chris isn't necessarily going to want to talk. Jerr is not necessarily going to want to talk. And Destiny, who said something that she knew wasn't true and helped police convict somebody that later turned out not to be guilty, that's the person who usually never talks, but she did. And I thought she did a great job.

Well, you How did Shane with that. I mean, he was with them the whole time and was able to let them know that they had nothing to fear talking to us.

It's funny because over the years, I think we've all learned to listen to that little voice in our head as journalists like, Oh, you should do this. You should reach out to someone. That's what I did to Chris in September. I feel so fortunate that we got to talk to him for that last time. But I have to credit Chris, really, for all those interviews because he pulled Destiny in by the scruff the neck and said, You're going to do this. She really didn't want to very much. He was very willing to gather up his friends and say, You can trust Keith and Shane, and they all showed up.

Yeah, that's great.

You guys, we're going to have to hang on for just a wee moment here.

You've got a pettish.

I'm a patient here who wants some attention. Just a second. Got to open the door.

Short break here.

All right, I'm back.

We've just taken a little break here for Keith to deal with his dog. What's your dog's name? I think America once.

Finnegans, the Irish Doodle. He's a crazy dog. He only behaves like he's been in a bar all night. But he really is quite sweet.

When you guys come home and there's a detritis all over the floor. Do you say that's FINNEGANS' wake? Because I would. I'm just saying.

You're such a literary guy.

Call me for these anytime you want. When we come back, we will have more from Keith's final interview with Chris Tapp.

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Let's talk a little bit about that confession. I'm pretty sure everybody in the audience listening to this or watching, said to themselves, why would someone confess to something that they didn't do, particularly something as terrible as a rape and murder?

There's actually been a lot of... There's a whole body of research into that now. It's much more common than it was ever thought to be in the past. There is a fairly standard belief until maybe 10, 15 years ago that if a person confessed, they're either guilty or pretty guilty. Frankly, as far as I can tell, it was through agitation by innocence projects and by efforts which had occurred in other countries. The United States lagged behind in this for many years in establishing rules for the way interrogations could occur.

I know that in the UK, police are not permitted to lie to suspects. You're not allowed to say, But we have your fingerprints at the scene. You just have to tell me how this happened, if they don't have it.

That's correct. There's a whole series of rules that have to be followed. When they were initially put in place, detectives all around the country were saying, Well, that's it. We'll never solve another crime, because the only way you're really going to solve a crime is if you can sweat these people. And we were doing stories about it all the time and made the trip to England to look at their experiences as a result of some situations that we had encountered doing stories here in the United States. In America, it's legal for cops to lie to suspects. Not here. Could you, for example, go into this interview and say, I have a certain specific piece of evidence that tells me you're guilty, if you don't have that evidence?

No, absolutely not.

Can you talk to a suspect for as long as you want to?

No. You should only interview for 2 hours at a time, and you should take recognize breaks at mealtimes, prayer times, and nighttime.

Well, it was pretty soon thereafter that those new procedures began to get adopted by police forces around America. And I think it's much more common now that rules and regulations have been put in place and cameras have been put in place, and recordings have been put in place to ensure that these interviews are done correctly and don't produce false confessions.

I imagine one of the hardest decisions that Chris faced, that anybody would face, would be to take the play to be released because you have to plead guilty. You have to say in court that you did this thing that you didn't do. But on the other hand, you're out of the slammer. I get it, but you got to live life as a convict, and that's tough.

Carroll played a part in that, too. I don't think he hesitated very much to take that deal, but this blew my mind when I heard it. He was going to plead guilty to the rape, not the murder. But Carroll insisted that he pleaded guilty to the murder and not the rape, because if he pleaded guilty to the rape, he would be labeled a sex offender. He would be watched very closely, and the chances were very good that he would slip up somehow and be put back in prison. She actually, I think, went way beyond what anybody would even know what she did.

Because she was convinced by then that he wasn't the guy.

Oh, yeah. I went and visited him in prison at one point. A couple of different points, actually. It's obviously soul-destroying for anybody. He was just getting to the point where it was so hard that even being a convicted murderer was preferable to being inside anymore.

The sense that I got from listening to Chris, watching him, is that he was remarkably free of anger, bitterness, rancor. He seemed more at peace with what had happened to him than I would have been, I think.

I agree with that. He was a sweet guy, and he was always very friendly and gentle, pleasant character. I enjoyed his company.

This feels like a good time to play this extra clip that did not make the broadcast. And this is about Chris, the man who served time for a murder he didn't do, talking about the man who did commit that murder at that rate, Mr. Dripps. So let's listen to that.

Did you ever see him in person?

Honestly, yeah, I did. I ran into him once out here in the real world. I was taking somebody to a medical procedure, and he was coming from the same medical building, and he was surrounded by two guards. The transportation guards were walking him, and he walked in front of my car, and I was in the back of the car. So we saw each other. I saw him, he saw me. And then when he got into the van to go back to the county jail, because it was before his conviction, We were able to look each other in the eye. Did you say that? No, I don't have that. Again, that was my one opportunity, probably in this lifetime, to ever say anything that meant. I still have nothing to ever say to him.

Boy, there had to be a moment, though, locking eyes with that guy.

All that hatred, all that frustration, all that built up inside me for all those years, and that was my one opportunity. I probably could have got them that day. I mean, honest truth. I don't know. But again, I can't continue to live in the past. Like I've said many times before, This one act will never define the person I am or the person I wanted to become or who I will be. So again, if I fight into that temptation of being able to do that to that individual, it proves to the world that I could be that monster they always thought I could be. I was able to survive it. That's the most important thing at the end of the story. And they haven't been able to run me out of town or take me away from anything like they did 26 years ago.

Determined to stay there in town?

I don't know if I'm determined to stay here in town, but we'll see where the world takes me. You know what I mean? The world's different now. This is the first time in my life in 26 years, from incarceration to even being released six and a half years ago. This is the first time truly in my life that I'm alone. I'm by myself. I'm free. So we're going to see how the world works, and we'll figure it out as we go.

It's a very different feeling now.

Truly.

That's what I'm talking about. I mean, that's a guy thinking, I would say, on a different level than a lot of people would be once being released from incarceration for a crime that they were completely uninvolved in. And the fact that he's able to think, Yeah, I wanted to kill that guy for a wreck in my life, but then I would just prove to everybody that I'm the person they thought I was.

And he could move on. He wanted to move on.

When Chris took that plea and got out, he had no reason to believe that he would one day be fully exonerated, right? People were looking, and there's another man's DNA there, but he could go the rest of his life and never know who that was.

That's exactly right. He knew that the forces were still arrayed against him. And what are you going to do? So you take what you're offered, even if it's got an emotional ankle bracelet.

What's the police theory of the crime now that they know who it was and what happened? They think what Mr. Drips just saw her and decided to attack her. He knew that she lived there, saw her move. Do we know of any contact between killer and victim before the night that he killed her?

Not as far as we know. And there really is no other story besides the one Dripps told the police. They can't prove or disprove it. They have no particular reason to offer a different opinion.

I spent 90 minutes with Brian Dripps in the prison in Idaho where he's serving his time. And And I sat in a conference room with him after corresponding with him for quite a while. And he told me that story that he told the police, showed some remorse, but just said, That's the way it is. That's what happened. And I'm sorry I did it. And I looked over my shoulder for the first couple of years, thinking every time I saw a cop, they were coming for me. And after that, I forgot about it.

Let me ask you, I think, the question that's probably on everybody's mind right now, which is, what's new on the death of Chris Tapp. I mean, they think it's a homicide. Are they anywhere on that?

I made a call to the Homicide Detective in charge of the investigation before we air the story just to make sure there was nothing new. And he indicated that there may be an arrest soon, but nothing confirmed. The altercation happened in Resorts World in Las Vegas. Cameras everywhere. You have to figure they have a pretty good idea who went in and out of that room.

Yeah, that's probably what they're talking about.

It's even standard procedure, not to reveal what they intend to do until they actually do it.

I guess the question would be, and I know you don't know the answer, is this something to do with the windfall of money that he got or something unrelated that we don't even know about or some long-standing grudge? The answer is we don't know any of that.

Every twist of this story has produced a whole sheep of questions to answer for the next chapter.

Well, I know, obviously, there's more to be reported on that. I know that viewers and listeners will We'll eventually be brought up to date on that. After this break, we are going to come back and answer some of your questions from social media.

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All right, let's get to some viewer and listener mail. Here's the first one. It's from Duke in Los Angeles who writes in to say, pocket squares are usually inexpensive, but one with Keith's face on it would be prohibitively costly. That's from Mike Taylor. That's not a viewer of Mail. Never mind. Sorry, I got that confused. Here's one from Mel Loves to Talk, who is a good friend of ours online and in person. Mel wants to know, did investigate investigators get in trouble for harassment and for coercing a confession out of a suspect?

Well, the simple answer is no, they did not. In fact, the lead investigator went on to become the mayor of Idaho Falls, and if anything, was celebrated for the way that he handled this case.

And he didn't talk with you guys because he was not well, I think, right? This is not him dodging us. This is him not being healthy.

Correct. But Shane, you can tell me about your interactions with the other investigator.

Yeah, retired Detective Ken Brown. We reached out to him a couple of times, and just a few days before air, the attorney for the city of Idaho Falls, in Chris's lawsuit, reached out back to us on his behalf. We asked him three questions. One, did he have any response to Chris's exoneration? Two, did he have anything to say about missing the guy across the street? Three, how did he respond to Destiny Osborne's claims that they coerced her? The only thing that he responded to was Destiny Osborne.

What did he say?

He said that she had told the same story in a diary entry a year after the murder. In an interview with police seven years after the murder. We included both of those in our program.

So he's still defending something which has been disproved.

Brenda Celeste wants to know, where was Angie's father as this was happening?

He It was in 2004, so very early on.

Missed most of this. The care was doing it all.

You talked about this online, I know, during the broadcast. The numbers on people who confess, even if they confess fraudulently or incorrectly or if it's coerced, juries still convict, don't they?

They tend to, yeah. The best evidence as far as juries are concerned, according to all the research, is that they love a confession better than anything else, and they will almost always convict. But so judges, and so will appeals courts. If somebody has confessed, that is the hardest evidence to undo. In fact, it's almost impossible.

I have your tweet here from during the broadcast, which is that, Shane, you said that studies of proven false confessors have shown that even in cases involving confessions which were later proven to be false, the jury is convicted in 73 to 81% of the cases, which underlines something that we've talked about on Dateland a bunch of times, which is that once that judgment that you are guilty. Unwinding that is very, very, very difficult.

That got me wondering about, so if confession is probably the most effective or the number one thing for a jury to consider, eyewitness testimonies close behind, and we know how reliable that is.

How reliable that is, which is way less reliable than we think.

Much less.

I was watching a movie the other day, and I'm thinking to myself, oh, coming up is that great line where he says this, right? Then the actor says the line, and it's not what I remember. It's not as good as I remember. I'm like, How could I do that? That's the case with eyewitness testimony.

That's true. And memories, same thing. People remember things which just simply didn't happen.

And they're convinced that they did happen.

Exactly.

Natalie Bannon, a friend of ours in real life, as well as on social media, wants to know, is this the only murder/rape that Mr. Drip's committed? Do know of anything else?

I looked into his background as much as we could. We tracked him across the country. He lived both in Northern California and Southern California in the Marines. We talked to authorities in Placerville County, California. They found nothing that fit that pattern. We talked to a cold case detective in San Diego, as well as naval investigative service, and they didn't have anything either during the time periods he was there.

Here's something from daisy Lou, 2320. Also, how come we never saw Chris with his mother and brother?

Well, he doesn't have a brother.

Well, Daisy Lou thinks he does.

Chris is an only child. I decided to not bother Vera with it. I think Vera is very, very deep in grief.

Vera is a lovely, lovely woman who was so supportive of her son and always in his corner. She was just such a happy woman when he was released.

What was the from when he was set free to when he died?

March 2017, he was freed. July 2019, he was exonerated. And then November 23, he died. So six years, six and a half years, about all.

Not enough time. Thank you guys very much. That is Talking Dateland for this week. Keith, Shane, thank you. Thanks to all of you for listening. And remember, if you have any questions for us about our stories or about Dateland, you can reach out to us on social at @datelandnbc. See you Fridays on Dateland on NBC.

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