But unlike his compatriots who came here for money, the horsemen came for love of carnage. Goodbye, Ichabod Crane. I curse the day you came to Sleepy Hollow.

Villaine wears many masks, none so dangerous as the mask of virtue. We are dealing with a madman.

The widow Winship was with child, a strange sort of witch with a kind and loving heart. I'm pinyon by a chain of reasoning. Watch out for your head. Oh boy. Today on film on the rocks, we are talking about Sleepy Hollow from 1999.

Welcome back to Film On the Rocks, we continue our October spooky season series with Tim Burton's Sleepy Hollow.

I'm joined by my good buddy, Nate. Nate, how are you doing, man? I'm doing good, man.

How are you doing? Doing pretty well. I'm excited to talk about Sleepy Hollow. And today, it's a very special episode because we have a very special guest. We are joined by Aurelien, the Spooky Sisters Book Club. Thank you so much again for coming on. Talk about Sleepy Hollow. Aurelien, would you mind telling us about yourself in your podcast? Sure.

Thanks for having me back. I have a podcast called Spooky Sisters Book Club, where I read really anything weird at this point, horror, sci fi, fantasy, magical realism, anything you can think of. And this month I'm focusing on ghost stories.

Oh, I love a good ghost story.

Mm hmm. Well, thank you for coming on. So today, like I said, we are talking about Sleepy Hollow from 1999. This movie was directed by Tim Burton. It was written by Kevin Yayo and Andrew Kevin Walker. Andrew Kevin Walker was also known. He's written some other movies, won that kind of stuck out to me. He was a writer on the movie seven, this movie. Yeah, this is a good one. This movie stars Johnny Depp, Christina Ricci, Miranda Richardson, Michael Gambon, Jeffrey Jones, Richard Griffiths, Ian McDermott and Christopher Walken with a special guest appearance from Christopher Lee.

One of the plug that in there, like half of Harry Potter and Star Wars is in this movie. Yeah, yeah.

We actually got all three Sith Lords in this movie to Count Dooku, Darth Maul and Emperor Palpatine now breaking down all the the prequel, the prequel trilogy, Sith Lords. Yeah, OK. I was going to ask if you knew about that. So I guess I'll kind of talk about that. The rape park who played Darth Maul, he was the fighting stuntman for the Headless Horseman in this movie, which I love that little fun fact. Hmm. Oh, my God.

It sparked so much joy. I mean, I was so excited to see it.

I guess I'll go ahead and mention how much money this movie made. So this movie had a budget of one hundred million dollars, which seems like a long shot.

Yes. So much money, though. They had a they had a build that whole town themselves. I think that's where a lot of it went towards. Yeah. It made over thirty million dollars this opening weekend and it grossed over two hundred and six million dollars worldwide. So did pretty good. Wow. Are you OK? Yeah. I think it's kind of like had some clout. Tim Burton, you know, he was kind of, you know, famous for all of his other movies and including like the Batman movies and Edward Scissorhands and Beetlejuice I believe was before this.

So you know this you know Johnny Depp. You know, this movie has some clout to it. So and also it's it's kind of like one of those like, fine. Just like folklore, that kind of ghost stories, the headless horseman. And I feel like that kind of draws on to a lot of people. And Tim Burton, he he brings the right aesthetic to a movie like this. I think I just love the the mood and the vibe of all this is so great.

Um, was this anybody's first viewing for the podcast of this movie? Yeah, I'd never seen it before. So so. So what do you think about on your first viewing? I was excited. I was excited because I had just been wanting to see it like I had seen like cartoons of the Sleepy Hollow as a kid. But I don't know, I kind of had to, like, muster up to it because I really wasn't sure what to expect.

So, like, I went out, I got a couple of Margarita's in me and I was really I was really expecting and one I went out I mean, I went and picked them up. So I can't go anywhere right now, but I don't know what I was expecting. I was kind of expecting to be scared a little bit. And I actually just thoroughly enjoyed this movie. I thought it was a lot of fun and it was like the perfect movie to kind of start off this whole October movie horror Halloween themed film fest that we're doing.

Right. Um, so I was pretty excited for it. It got me. I mean, Halloween spirit, that's for sure. Yeah. It's such a like a quintessential October movie. I just love it. Just has that vibe to it. Aurelien, what was what was the first time you saw this? I think I saw it when it came out, to be honest. That's awesome. Not ever since I'm watching it this week.

I was like, I think I liked this movie, but I couldn't tell you what it was about or what happened. Right. It was not what I remembered.

So what's your opinion on the movie now after seeing it twice? Uh, overall, like like you said, really excellent, spooky atmosphere. Like there's lying fog everywhere. And the music is that, like tinkly spooky music where you're like, what's going to happen? Something's going to come out of the trees. Mm hmm. But I found the plot like kind of tedious and the family tree stuff lost me a couple times. I was like, I don't get this.

Yeah. I keep getting to the story. Yeah, my eyes go a little cross towards the end because like everybody, everyone has, like the surname, like Van Somethin's till we have name tags.

Please, please, please, I'm doing this.

I couldn't keep it straight and it didn't matter. Like, I didn't care why he was targeting specific people in the family.

Yeah. I mean, I still I mean, I still like this movie a lot, but that is the one thing that I go like crosseyed for that kind of loses points for me, but it doesn't make me dislike the movie. Yeah. It's something that you can just kind of zoned out during when they go too deep in the family tree. So if you're like, all right, what are we getting to the spooky shit.

Right. Yeah, I do kind of like it though that it's not. I mean, you go to directions, you know, it's just the apparition of the horseman. And that's that's like torturing this small village of Sleepy Hollow or, you know, it's somebody controlling him. And I kind of like I mean, I feel like I would be fine either direction, they way. But I kind of like the the human element of this that it's just it's all like human motivations that are driven by this is all greed and things like that.

Just kind of drive is not this unstoppable monster. So as I was, I kind of doing the research for this movie, Tim Burton said that he was really inspired by some of the older Hammer movies. And that's why he has like Christopher Lee in this movie, because Christopher Lee played he played like The Mummy Frankenstein, and he played all those like monster characters. And so I really thought it was cool that he had like a cameo in this movie to, like, nod to that.

And like, the small fact that it's not I mean, it is like a zombie Horsman that is like the supernatural being, but he's being controlled by someone else. That is, again, a parallel to one of the Hammer movies that Christopher Lee was in. And he was he was the mummy and somebody in that movie. It was a human that was summiting and controlling the mummy to do his bidding. So it we get that same parallel here that was kind of like what Tim Burton was drawing inspiration from.

So that kind of made sense to me and fun to see when you did the research. Yeah, that's cool. I also feel like maybe that was the comedic tone that I didn't get was that throwback vibe. There were a couple of moments that were like maybe funny but didn't really work for me and it almost felt kind of vintage horror. Mm. Yeah, get any funny moments, when did you guys laugh in this movie? It was to be it was mostly like the incompetence of Ichabod.

He was OK.

Yeah, because it was like a nutty professor kind of vibe. Like he's a little exciting and silly. Yeah, I love like he likes to point, but he has like no punch to it. He's just like make an observation and people like, you know, so he decapitated him. People mostly do that. So that way they can identify the body in their body. But we know who this is exactly. Why did he do that? Because he realizes, wait, I don't have an answer to this.

And that's something that is like a not necessarily a contrast, but a parallel to the original. So this is an adaptation of the short story, The Legend of Sleepy Hollow, written by Washington Irving from 1820. And the character Ichabod Crane was he was kind of written as or described as this is like kind of this ugly looking person, like he wasn't like a handsome character. But, you know, Johnny Depp is pretty good looking. Right? So it's so instead of making him giving a prosthetics, make him ugly, they gave him kind of like ugly characteristics, like he thinks he's the smartest person in the room, but he actually isn't.

Or he kind of like fumbles over his own theories sometimes. So they kind of gave him all of these imperfect, imperfect quirks or like how he's a coward. Like he he uses a child as a human shield when they go see the witch or, you know, he's like standing up on top of the chair because there's a spider in the room. So they gave him these undesirable characteristics instead of making him ugly, which I thought was an interesting take on that.

It reminded me a lot of him and Willy Wonka later, though, and I couldn't see that. Oh, really? Yeah. Like, they share a lot of the same characteristics.

That is that is that who you're Johnny Depp like this is my go to character with Johnny Depp as Willy Wonka.

No, I think that's who ruined Johnny Depp for me. That character. Oh oh oh. Did you think of him now? I think of that weird character, but it just kind of reminded this was almost like a Proteau, Willy Wonka type where he was like pretty eccentric, but not overwhelmingly eccentric and like a little incompetent, but not totally incompetent. Um, he he also wasn't like because, you know, they gave him this like a like authoritarian role with like being a constable in the short story.

He's not a constable. He's actually a headmaster teacher. And he's kind of a looser sort of and like basically the threads that are the same or that he is in love with this Katrina character. This character named Brahim is kind of pranking and being mean to Ichabod this whole time. But the and he kind of gets scared out of town through like this Horsman story. There is like this interaction between the Horseman and Ichabod Crane in the short story. But it's kind of ambiguous.

Ambiguous on the ending is I don't know if I want to spoil it here, but it's kind of like was it was it really the horseman or is it really Brohm just dressed up, like pulling a prank on him? It kind of like leaves you to decide what happened and that and we do kind of there is a homage to that in this movie where, you know, Brohm just throw like the pumpkin at him what he's dressed up as the horseman.

So it kind of just give you that sort of fun little Easter egg in this movie if you've read the short story. But yeah. So I did appreciate kind of a lot of the nods to that.

Why was he investigating if he's just a headmaster? So it's weirder.

So in the short story, he's not investigating anything. Oh, yeah. Oh, so he's just like a he's a citizen. Yes, yes, he well, he he is he is an outsider, but he's coming into town to be like a headmaster. And he is I guess back then it was customary for the teachers or headmasters to kind of just like. Couch hop, and he's just like sleeping in the different he's like staying in the different houses in the town.

And again, he's kind of a loser in the story.

So, uh, so, yeah, really selling the story. It's interesting. I do like the ending of it, but it is it's weird. It is weird. And so so like the plot of this is so it's a little it's actually really different from the plot of the short story. Well, I'll say I'll say something about the town itself. So I've actually visited Sleepy Hollow, Sleepy Hollow in New York. And I did one of those little like walking tours like through the cemetery and saw like the old Dutch church and all these things, the lighthouse and such.

This town, just from like the pictures that I saw on that tour compared to this movie, like nothing matched up at all. Like there was no like I guess the old Dutch church was kind of the only thing that kind of was represented in the Sleepy Hollow movie, like compared to what I had seen like in real life. But that church is actually located like within the cemetery, which is where it all kind of takes place in the actual written story, which this one not so much.

I guess it kind of comes out of the woods and the cemetery is more like a side area. It's not as important, but I didn't think that was like a little bit interesting. Just a personal observation, it still would be cool to go and visit it, but I personally would like to do that. What, like the Sleepy Hollow? Yeah, yeah. I think I'll be like, oh, dude, it was so cool. That town I went in October, the town was so into it.

They were all decked out everybody's front lawns. There were skeletons everywhere and everyone's skeletons were headless. Horseman, right. I love that. Yeah. And like the roads were lined with like. Like cobblestone, kind of I don't even not like it wasn't like cobblestone roads, but like the little walls kind of holding up. I guess the dirt from whatever they cut into is all cobblestone. It just looked very old and looks like very from that era.

It definitely was very haunted me because he was like raining a little bit. There was like fog when I was up. And I'm walking alone. Right, because I was there for work trip and I'm like, everyone's going to do stuff together, like the bar, the hotel bar. And like now I kind of want to see the town.

Like I'm doing a podcast and this is a cemetery by myself.

You know, I'd been there and this was like this was October twenty nineteen. And because now we're actually going to do this episode back then. But this work trip was just such a disaster. It was actually part of the reason I had to leave the podcast. It was because my work was just keeping me on a string. Anyways, they had the horsemen actually walking around the cemetery. I felt that it was like I didn't think it would freak me out because I knew it was coming because I had seen him when I was walking up.

But when that horse came up next to me, the horse was huge. It was so big. And then the horsemen, right. No head. And it just looked so real. And he like smelled even a little bit. And then he, like his whole body turned to me just like really quick. And I actually like I like jumped. I was like, fuck, wake up. And I actually felt like something was staring at me, even though there was no head and my whole body just got like goose bumps and chills.

So and I like did a shudder. And I was like, I, I know. Done I'm going I'm going back to my hotel room. This is this is too much for me. That's a cool. Yeah. That's so cool. My my great grandmother, her family is actually from Sleepy Hollow and that's all I know. I don't know anything else about the lineage of that or anything but. Yeah. So that's something that she always kind of told me because I was reading the novel movie adaptation novelization of this movie.

That's why I'm trying to say. And then she saw me reading that she was oh, you know, like my family's from there. I was like, what's. Yes, we come from the van. Tressel's. Oh, God, I would hate myself. Rukavina Tressell. Oh, that's a good name. Oh, my God. Her middle name was Vand. Oh, my.

Oh, my God. You're about to be hunted on Halloween.

Is it weird? I'm like I'm like hoping for that. Kind of like please let me spook.

Maybe you should never go visit Sleepy Hollow or like once you're in the bounds of the town it starts just so that would be nuts because like controlling the horsemen that do it, do it. So like I that's on my mom's side and then on my dad's side, I'm related to I'm a descendant of one of the witches that was killed during the Salem witch trials, Rebecca Neuse. So I got both reallife. Yeah. Yeah. So I got on both sides.

So my family tree is haunted. It is, yeah. It's my favorite record. I think that's why I'm so drawn to this, but it's in my blood foot, so I'm kind of like getting a good gauge, I think for all those opinions on this movie. Let's see. I kind of want to see what y'all think of the Rotten Tomatoes score. So the tomato meter, the critics have this at a sixty nine percent. The audience score is at it.

Eighty percent. Oh, my God. We're all kind of fall on this. It's kind of hard with the critics. OK, you're right. Yeah.

Like I mean especially compared to the last movie I was on here to talk about was the mummy. Compare this to the mummy. Yeah, the mummy is really good. I mean, but it's also like different genres, like apples and origins isn't a different genre, is it.

Horror, action adventure.

It's horror action adventure. This one's like horror fantasy. But you got to look at it in a vacuum, though, right? It's its own entity. Yes. Yeah. So just so so you're leaning more towards like the high sixties for this movie.

I'd say sixties, maybe 70s. I think there's better Halloween fare to be had. OK. What about your date? I think as I had when I went to the town and did the tour because of my connection to that, I'd say like mid 80s. Mid 80s. OK, yeah. Um, I'm kind of like splitting the difference. I'm like high 70s, maybe 80 percent. Um, really, this movie kind of loses points with me really only only like two things.

One, we kind of talked about it, how the whole plot is just kind of makes you go cross-eyed. It would've been I think we'd been better. They like left little breadcrumbs of like who could have been controlling the horsemen because it kind of comes out of nowhere. And I don't know if y'all felt that because we've only seen that character like once or twice. I don't even know she had speaking parts before the reveal. So it kind of just felt like a very Scooby Doo ish, kind of like, hey, it was this person the whole time.

Yeah, it also.

So what did you think the casting of Christopher Walken as the Headless Horseman like? How did you how do you like that? I kind of wanted him to talk a little bit. That was the best I could do. That's pretty good. I like it. I wanted to hear him. I thought he was way too huge of an actor to be in that role. Yeah, he had no speaking parts. Oh, really? Yeah.

I was surprised. Like, I think I had looked away from the screen at some point and looked back and I was like, oh my God, Christopher Walken. Like, when did you get here?

Is it kind of distracting? Like as soon as it comes out, like. Yes. Takes you out of it because you're like, oh, that's definitely Christopher Walken. Yes. It his hair is just like hairspray, like just it's just so I could afford an electrical socket and he's just like, yeah, yeah. I mean, I mean like it looks good. I like the, the crazy super light blue contacts he's wearing. The razor sharp teeth I thought was interesting, but he's literally just going out the whole time that I kind of would have like some speaking even as a human, even as a human.

He was doing that. But here's here's my thought on why he was like monster like is because Ichabod Crane is hearing this story from somebody else who's currently being tortured by this monster. Right. So they probably don't see him as like ever having been a human. He's always been like some demonic figure. So this is them. This is their interpretation of who he is. This is why we never actually hear him like be human. Like he was just always a monster that just killed.

Right. Oh, interesting. I like that theory. Yeah. Yeah, they definitely do play on the whole Ichabod trying to like be he's trying to base everything in logic and science and he's all about the scientific method and, you know, using logic to kind of solve most things. So it was kind of I did like that aspect of this that they really tried to he was just such a skeptic on everything that was going on. So I thought that was a fun element to this.

Mm hmm. Yeah. I couldn't help but think, though, when he started his investigation that at the time he's living, we really didn't know anything about forensic investigation. Right. And I got a little distracted from the actual science.

Right. Especially when he does pour that powder over the decapitated head and it he goes it was decapitated like one fell swoop or whatever. Like that. My girlfriend is what.

How? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

I thought he was doing some like, footprints.

I don't know. Stride is ginormous. Well, it's a horse so I don't know. There were almost parts of it that seemed like Tim Burton writing his own Sleepy Hollow fanfiction where he was like, and this will be fun and I want them to be like this. And I wanted to feel like this rather than like an adaptation. That's a really good point.

I kind of feel is more of what he wanted to do kind of thing. I think that I guess, again, that kind of plays into how he him wanting to draw inspiration from all sorts of other movies, like the whole windmill scene that's just straight out of like Frankenstein. So again, that's like something that wasn't in the original. But I guess it's also kind of like how do we make the short story? A 90 minute movie, a 90 minute movie, and how many of my other movies can I tie into it at the same time?

Yeah, I did like the like that scarecrow was definitely Jack's skeleton or whatever from a nightmare before Christmas. I didn't know what to because they oh it just, it just that immediately pulled me out. I was like, oh wait. Tim Burton did do both of these things.

Again, a superior Halloween movie, by the way, that one is again, it's a Christmas movie, but, you know, it's both for both religion. And then the other one I noticed was Johnny Depp looked when he was like looking out that circular window. I was like, is this my watch? And Edward Scissorhands right now? It's very much so. Looks like that it was like the same Johnny Depp, handsome. But also like a little bit of darkness in him, right, but we actually never saw that darkness within the sky.

We really didn't. I thought we might. Yeah, not a whole not a huge arc for her Ichabod in this. Oh, yeah. No, actually, no, I don't really think there is really. Which, again, is fine. I mean, I saw like this movie a lot like I think is just purely entertaining and it kind of just really hits all those things that I love it because it has a it's not like a horror vibe as a spooky vibe.

I don't know how to explain that, but I just love it. And, you know, it kind of always was saying with the there's fog in every scene, the whole western woods looks awesome. I just love it. And I like the color correction on this is just like the right cue. I don't know if this is true. I'm a little skeptical. This trivia fact I found so well, apparently this whole movie was shot through a blue filter.

And so all of the blood that they used was actually orange, but it looked red through the blue filter. But I don't know why I'm kind of skeptical of that now. It makes sense. The movie did feel cold like the whole time. So it makes sense.

Yeah. And I mean, just think of, like, the whiteness of Christina Ricci skin. It's almost like they're going for that undead pallor. Yeah. Like she was so pale and her hair was so pale and she was always wearing white skin.

We can't talk about like that to the age difference. And it's like love relationship that they're trying to put between them, too. Yeah, she looked like she was like 13.

She was really creepy. Yeah. Full adult man. Yeah.

It's actually a 17 year difference between the two actors. Like in real life. Yeah. In real life. And Johnny Depp said he was actually really uncomfortable with this because he has personally known her since she was nine.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. That was because I mean, she she does look like I mean I think she was. Supposed to be a teenager here, right when the movie came out, she was 19 when the movie came out, so she was maybe 18 when they filmed it. But still, it was, you know, dancing on that line, right? Yeah.

That means he was in his 30s. Yeah. Yeah, he was in his 30s.

It was, uh, but I watch interviews with her and she is kind of like he's not bad to look at. So I was cool with it.

I mean, I think the height of Johnny Depp Dream Boat is this time thing. He's pretty. He's in teen magazines.

So is this peek Johnny Depp or is Pirates of the Caribbean peek Johnny Depp? No, that's when he's old. OK. The more popular he used to be super hot.

I mean, I like again, I'm so I'm very comfortable with my sexuality. So I feel comfortable saying this. I was very distracted by how good looking Johnny Depp was in this movie because like you were saying, like he was an old Jack Sparrow. Mm hmm. He did. Like, I just remember seeing the movie, like, he's just like just an old guy, quirky, eccentric, just whatever. And he's just kind of who people think of when they see Johnny Depp.

And again, like the only young movies I had seen Johnny Depp, as were Edward Scissorhands. So and even in that one, he just looks a little a little different. But in this one, I was just like, oh, damn. He's like a good looking guy. Yes. Yes.

And I feel like they really played it up with also like making him pale and smooth. And, um, I don't know, this was just I didn't do any research on how popular he was at the time, but I'm pretty sure he was like girls were cutting pictures out of magazines at this time. Yeah, yeah, and I was trying to place where this movie is in his whole life because Disney like have like a big downfall like him and Rob Lowe and Robert Downey Jr.

, I feel I feel like they were kind of a crew and they all had this, like, peak in the 80s. And then they all plummeted because they're all like doing weird stuff. And then they all peaked again. Even drugs. I mean, a lot of drugs.

Yeah, well, drugs and things like skeptical, skeptical things, skeptical decisions. I think Rob Lowe is a big one because I think when I think of Rob Lowe, I think of what's that show? I just think that the low files and records.

Oh, yeah. I like him on the upswing coming out. But I mean, same with Winona Ryder, same generation like she and Johnny Depp used to star in things and she fell out of the spotlight until stranger things. Oh yeah. She got hugely unpopular probably around this time. Oh, not that I know there have been so many revivals of like 80 stars in our time. Well, I think that this is a perfect segue way to say it sounds like these people could have used some accountability.

It's a surprise ad. So they ought to to today's sponsor, support, support. He's a super awesome accountability service. I can't get around fucking cheesy here. Oh, boy. But support is awesome. Support is awesome. If you're having trouble meeting your goals or staying motivated or feel like you need some accountability, that's what that's everything that support is about. The whole idea is that if you have somebody helping you come up with a plan, holding you accountable to that plan that you will, you're more likely to stay motivated and actually accomplish your goals with support.

You get partnered with accountability body and you all help each other stay on track. It's really easy, simple, and it's low pressure is not added pressure or anything that kind of help you figure out what's going on or there's any sort of hurdles you need to get over. You head to get supported dotcom or over to our show notes and click the link from this movie. I kind of felt like that there was an odd accountability relationship between the stepmother and the horseman.

She was in an odd way, keeping him accountable by killing people for her own bidding. But this was this is not what the story is about. That's a really negative relationship between a Nates. Who did you think could have you some accountability in this UIF? I mean, Johnny Depp himself, he needs to like you. I think you talked about before. He uses this child is like a meat shield when he's going to meet the witch, like, hey man, you need to get your priorities straight and you need to think about, you know, protect these kids.

You can't be putting them in harm's way just because they're the only one who wants to go with you. Like, don't let this kid go with you. Take accountability, do it yourself and, you know, come out with the results you're accountable for, for goodness sake, you know. Yeah, he's kind of a coward. So I had to get supported dotcom or get down there for you have today. Tell them that film on the rocks sent you and you can start your two week free trial today.

All right, guys. So let's get into the drinking pools. Aurelien, since you are our guest, would you like to start us off? Sure.

So my first one is drink whenever Johnny Depp makes one of his faces and like, I don't know how to describe that more, just he does like a little quirk of his eyebrow or a weird like, oh, Gaspé smoulder, right? Yeah. He just has a lot of weird faces that the camera likes to pause on for a second. So we're all like, yeah, what is Johnny Depp thinking? His face does things, you know.

Oh man.

I really think Tim Burton is a little bit in love with him and like probably yes, occasionally. And be like Johnny, just emote for me right now.

Everyone shut up. Johnny's on screen. He's the guy we're Johnny Depp says any, like, lame joke. And Tim Burton's just like, ha ha. And everyone's like, I really wasn't. I don't think that was a joke.

Yeah. So good to hear.

So I also have a drink whenever you get confused about the family tree, because every time it came up I was like, wait, what did they say last time. What who's related. Who's a what, who it was. I just lost it at some point and I was like, I don't care, I'm just going to keep watching.

There are also similar and they all look the same. That is a part of the movie we don't spend without. We didn't spend enough time with any people to delineate families.

Yeah, we didn't like Vancouverites from the Van Tassels and the Van Heusen is like it was just any of you.

It does. It was more confusing than like Whoville, like everybody. It was just so confusing.

Yeah. Also drink whenever you see a low lying fog because there are often just shots where it's like, oh, it's a foggy scene.

That's a dangerous or a real danger and get real foggy doing that thing.

And then my last one really puts you over the edge, which is drink whenever the music gets spooky. Yes. I want to talk about the music is really good. Yeah. Danny Elfman killed it in this. Very spooky. So those are all mine. I love them. Yeah. I like the mix of visual and audible. Yeah. I think big big fan of those big fan of texting during movies and so and meeting those types of things.

OK, so I too mixed a little bit of visual and audible drinking rules. So for every decapitation comes with a nice little slicing noise and maybe a little spin at the end spin of the head. So take a drink. Every time we see a pumpkin, this one's going to miss the other pumpkins everywhere in this dang movie. Take yourself a little drink and then this one, these two, you can kind of interchange whichever one you want. So either the horse footsteps, not for every single footstep, but every time we hear the footsteps, do like a quick little like three second waterfall or every time they shoot the horseman.

So individual shots, which is so pointless he is already dead. Why are we shoot in the students do. Why do they keep shooting him? It's like, what else are you going to do?

I come off the horse and it just makes me feel good. This, this like they need to they just hate, like the Patrick Starr approach. Let's just push the city somewhere else like y'all need to because we just move away from the western woods. I don't understand, but go on. That was those are my rules. So I like the solid ones and an interchangeable one for whatever you want. I you and I overlapped on the pumpkins and beheadings.

You're right there, which I love. We need more Jack and Lenard's in movies like I don't care, like put them in James Bond movies. We need more jack lanterns and movies, especially when Ichabod walks in. I think it's Van Tassel, Dumbledore's house when he first gets to town, because in that room or in that house, there's just pumpkin's like on the fundamental like the door when he first walks in there everywhere, it was kind of really fun to point that out.

Um, so and of course, the Scarecrow, which is really great script scarecrow acting. I got to say I was great Scarecrow. My third freaking role besides the pumpkins and beheadings was every time we see horses running in like through the western woods. So like whenever there's like a chase scene or some some people running through the western woods, take a drink, which I just love. It just looks awesome. It just looks so cool. It just that's just geek out every time.

My fourth drinking rule is, oh, drink whenever Johnny Depp does the whole Cardinal Birdcage flip thing, it's a good one. Yeah. Which that was not in the in the short story but cool, cool little fun thing. OK, so my first drink, you're about to sound like such an idiot so you'll let me know if you have a feeling autoline what the word for this. But for the lack of knowing this word drink whenever a horse pops a wheelie.

I don't know what that's called when they kind of like name stand up on their cracklings. I don't know what that's called. Rear rear.

OK, so whatever a horse rears take it really.

I did a header off their wheels. I was like you in a question, how would you do that. So I feel like she's read a word.

It's just as why you just read a shit time, like you just put all these words in your head.

I could have very easily Googled what that was, but I wanted because what would you have Googled? What would you specifically type horse pops wheelie. Exactly. So Acardo was like, you know what I want to describe, but what my thought process for this. So we had a much better way of stating. I would have been like, you know, when the horse goes, that's how to describe it. But that is not the same. So, yes, I think like the most dramatic like like I don't like bellow dramatic moment of horse popping a wheelie.

I'm just going to stay on brand with that is when Katrina and Ichabod get into that little fight because she like I think she burns the evidence he has on someone and she was she leaves like the horse rears and she says she just keeps eye contact with him the whole time. It's just so it was so extra. It was like it was to be kind of like, who is this for?

Like it's for Tim Burton. Everything in this movie is for Tim Burton. That's 100 percent correct. I feel like all these directors all have their own little quirks and stuff, because Tim Burton definitely had his own things that he puts in there for himself. But like the whole like Quentin Tarantino loving feat. So in all his movies, he's got, like, crazy ups and stuff. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. He has a fetish. I'm pretty sure it's Tim Burton's in the theater.

He's like, oh yeah. That was for me more like. Oh, yes, oh, so what? So it's kind of moving on to the scenes that made this movie, so what kind of scenes do we want to talk about or what? Well, popped out to you. The British accents really threw me off because I was, you know, did that well. Seventeen ninety nine were there still. Yeah, well, here's my here's my part to that.

I feel like Aurelien kind of has something to do. So, yes, the United States was founded in 1776, but it was settled for like a very long time before that. Right. So I feel like by 1799, like the accent's kind of would have fizzled. We would have got more of an in-between between the British accent, the American accent that we know today. So that that point where I was just like, OK, I don't know if that was completely consistent.

What were you going to say, Aurelien?

Because you I was going to say it's fine if they still have British accents, as long as they would all match. None of them matched. It's like where who taught you all to speak? Like, why did Christina Ricci have this weird, like, Brit, American accent? And her step mom was full American. Yeah, it yeah, it did. I would have expected the older people to maybe retain some British, you know. Mm hmm.

It did it does always make me forget where this movie actually takes place, because I always forget that Sleepy Hollow is supposed to be like a like an American, like a New York folktale. But because of that, I always think, oh, this is somewhere in the U.K. whenever I watch this. But yeah, it does throw me off. Mm hmm. Yeah, no. And Johnny Depp just did his, like, dandy man voice that he does.

He does. He does do that. I think the only thing that brought me back and reminded me that Sleepy Hollow is in the United States, in New York was just I saw the the seventeen ninety nine American flag in the background. I was like, oh OK, no Union Jack, OK, we're like an eagle eye spotter.

I did not notice that at all. Mm hmm. I was like counting the stars. Oh. How many states do you have at this point? I really love the long opening weekend when Johnny Depp is actually traveling to Sleepy Hollow because the Danny Elfman scores are awesome. I mean, he's one he's he's a great composer. He's kind of a staple for Tim Burton. He's basically John Williamson to Steven Spielberg, really. And Nate, in case you didn't know, Danny Elfman also did the Tobey Maguire Spider-Man movie scores that we've covered before.

So, yeah, it's the element. It's awesome. And so you really get to just be immersed in this score. And it also kind of like sets you in the time because we're watching him travel. It's kind of like a long scene. So it's like you kind of really felt, oh, it took them this long to only travel twenty five miles. So kind of like he was coming from like Manhattan or something like New York somewhere in New York.

Yeah.

Oh did he say the Bronx. I feel like I heard Bronx somewhere. Did you, did you say New York covers it all. Yeah, just just flat. I mean people just rolling their eyes right now, but. Yeah. So so it kind of doesn't really sets you in that time. It's like. Oh yeah. It took them this long to travel. So I, I really, I just felt like oh I'm like I'm settling into this movie, I love it.

Yeah. I think the opening is actually one of the best parts of the movie. The music, the atmosphere, everything really works together to get you into like oh this is going to get spooky, like it's going to be good, you know. And you're also anticipating what's going to happen next when he arrives. Yeah, it is really nice when they kind of submerge you in the setting a little bit, which I thought was really, really good with this movie.

I really felt like it was we were where we were supposed to be. Everything kind of matched, you know. Yeah. I don't want to jump too far ahead. No, feel free. We jump around so much.

The Tree of heads. Oh. Oh, really surprisingly gruesome.

Yeah. The Tree of the Dead was awesome. I love the design of it.

Yeah, the tree itself was really cool. And then we start like hacking into it and you just see these faces, oh my God, it's bleeding and oh I just really like visceral horror.

It's great. And that's something that Tim Burton said that he just loved throwing blood on Johnny Depp. So any so any opportunity that they got to just spray him down because Johnny Depp hated it, that he just loved taking advantage of it like a fetish was like a Johnny Depp fetish, or he's like, Johnny, Johnny, just let me do this. Looks so good.

Did he start chopping for any reason? I thought that was so weird. And he was just like, hold on, let me try something. And he just takes a hatchet and he's just like, that's good point.

Why he was doing. I thought at first he was like trying to cut it, like cut it down or like start to attack it. But then I don't know, maybe it's entirely full of heads. Yeah, that's a good point. I actually don't know why he starts hacking at it. Yeah. So yeah, I feel like this whole movie was kind of like a missed opportunity in terms and this is kind of going back to what Breker was saying earlier where like they didn't really give us clues as to who was doing what throughout the movie.

And I feel like this really could have been an opportunity to make it sort of like a mystery, a solvable mystery within the movie. And I feel like especially particularly with like the hatchet hacking, like we don't really set that up for him to think like, oh, there could be something in this tree. You know, at no point was I like, oh, this tree is haunted. At that point, I was just like, oh, there's the sword by the grave.

There's something going on with the grave. Maybe we should go in there. But yeah, it was his first move, whatever video game plot in that way where it was like we know that the characters need to move from here to here and touch this thing.

And there's no, like, real MacGuffin either that he's going after. He's just trying to find the resting place of the horseman.

Yeah, it is almost strange. They went a. mystery. There's no mystery here that they're trying to pull us along with. We're just observers. And that's a good point. Yeah. Because it's not until I think like maybe over halfway through that Johnny Depp. Realizes that whoever possesses the head is controlling the horseman and that that then becomes a mystery but is only for like the last maybe half hour, maybe less. Mm hmm. Yeah, they did kind of take us on that whole, like, family name tangent that really didn't tie into the movie that much.

Well, I mean, it did tie into the movie. It just didn't make sense.

I remember now being bored as he's looking at these damn family trees. I was just like, pay attention, pay attention. It just easily the worst part. Like, why invent a plot that makes people feel like this? Yeah, yeah. It's it's it's not great, that part.

And I mean, they could have even thrown out this complicated plot and it's been like, oh, look, that's oh it's a full moon. Oh. Let's like make it even spookier.

Yeah. I don't know. I thought it was it they did, they didn't do a ton like a ton with the names that were kind of boring. But if they did kind of drag it out, I was very happy with how long this movie was. It was only like an hour 45. So if this movie was two hours and they did more of the same stuff, it definitely would have checked out more. I don't know. I still kind of I thought it was it didn't lose me too much.

I didn't look at my phone at all during this movie, so. Wow. Except except a text book.

That is how I measure movies are very I am not a movie critic by any means, but I definitely texted Brucker halfway and I was like, dude, this is awesome. I love this. Yeah, I was actually really excited about that. You texted me fifteen minutes and I'm already loving it because I thought that you would have hated this movie for some reason. So I don't really. Yeah. I'm like surprised at how much I'm liking you like all these horror movies because I don't like them all, you know, typically.

So, um, this is fun.

This is a weird like horror vibe and it's really bloody. But there's nothing that you're actually scared that you're going to see.

Um, I will say there are some some moments that are very, I guess like scary to me. Like the scariest one serious person movie is When the Horseman comes and he wipes out that whole family.

Oh yeah. That that was scary. And like, you know, boy, they had the guts to go ahead and kill the kid, which, you know, I appreciate. I mean, I hate how like kids, but I know kids are always safe. That's not the Tim Burton said on the DVD commentary for this. He said he goes, Oh, I fucking hate it when movie spare the kids fucking kill them. And that's why he did it.

In this movie, I will say it was done in a tasteful way. It would have been a lot worse if they actually showed the beheading. But, you know, they just cut to him and he's like, oh, it's assumed I know what happened. He got that kid in Repak is terrifying as like he is the stuntman is just he's so agile and quick. He's dual wielding an axe and a sword like Borg, like he's just speaking of the duel wield sword and Axe by Repak.

How about Repak Darth Malling that that that one dude brong yeah. Brumm completely cutting him. And have I called him Gasteyer because he was good looking dude. Call what guest on Beauty and the Beast. Because I didn't, I didn't catch his name at all in the movie but I did held his own. But at the end man he got, he fucked him like he sliced him in half and it's great. It was very, it was very dark.

Maulik Oh. And then he just tumbled. And it's very much like you see that coming. And it's very much like they could have avoided this because he wasn't trying to fight them. He was just trying to get out. And yeah, it was it was just so good. I love it.

Well, another scene. Oh, sorry. No, no, go ahead. Another scene. I just love when they're these like establishing spooky shots. So when Johnny Depp is standing and he hears something and he looks back through like the wooden covered bridge and there's nothing but there's just like fog and a spooky wind. I just love those. I think those are done really well. Um, just the anticipation of the horsemen scenes.

Right. And it sounds like the the frogs croaking. Sounds like they're saying Ichabod. Yeah. Whoa. I did not catch that. I was a good kids. I watched this with subtitles. So that's why that's it. It's funny. I did feel like this movie gave itself a lot of time to breathe, you know, because a lot of these movies tend to like move a little bit fast and we're just kind of jump in between scenes. But this one, it was just like, all right, something big happened.

And then we can pause for a moment. And I feel like a lot of big things. There were a lot of like action peaks throughout the movie, which kind of kept me engaged. Like there wasn't it didn't lead up to one big kill. I mean, in a way it did. But at the same time, it was like now like we had some pretty consistent action, like from the start, like two minutes in, we already saw, like, that dude, those two guys get beheaded for Vancouverites only know that because their name is on the carriage.

OK, OK, again, name tags that hold me right there just OK, but I agree with you, I remember the first time I watched this because there's so many parts and this isn't a complaint, but there's so many parts where, you know, the Horsman is. It's like the anticipation build up of him about to run out of the woods and come assassinate someone. I remember the first time I watched this, I was like I was always, like, dreading whenever that was happening.

Like, no, no, no. Like, he's about to come kill someone. So they did a good job. I like making you fear it, at least for me, because I was a kid when I first watched this. Oh, yeah.

I was kind of wondering who the audience is for this given like kind of like comedy, but also the bloodiness but not real horror. Like who is this for? Yeah. And it's if it was like going after like like the teenagers because like I think I was I know what it felt like, but but then don't make it or because then you're eliminating that.

But, but again it's R rating so it makes it like all like the blood. And because we actually see the the head spin off as they get decapitated, like that's what makes this movie. I bring it to the next level. That's really good. So it's it's kind of stuck in that gray area where like it needs to be. Ah. But it's missing its target audience that way.

Yeah, I agree. I think like a bunch of 17 year olds would love this movie around Halloween. Like it almost seems like that's the audience that they're ultimately going for.

How many decapitations can we have until it's not PG 13 anymore, though? Probably that might just be one. Yeah, it might be following that.

The F word rule. I mean, like, hey, you showed a child get murdered. That's an R that's that's true.

It might not even be the decapitation. Yeah. Because like it's kind of like The Conjuring. The Conjuring is rated R but I don't think there's like really F bombs in there and there's nothing grotesque in it. It's just it's pure terror. You have to make it an R just for that. So. Well, this isn't exactly as terrifying. It's kind of like that whole you're watching people get decapitated, like they don't show the shadows, they don't cut away and you just see the headless body like they're showing everything.

And that's something that Tim Burns said he wanted. He wanted to come up with a way to do this. And it's kind of cool, like how they made like mannequins for everybody in their skeletons were held by magnets. And so after the decapitation, they would turn off the magnets. So that way it just looked like the knees buckled naturally. So it was it was kind of cool how much that how many like all the practical effects that they put into this.

Yeah, that's neat. I have another scene, although it's the last scene. So if we want to wait to talk about that. No, no, go ahead. So we'll jump around again.

OK, I really like the last scene and I don't know if this was intentional, but it almost felt like by getting out of Sleepy Hollow and waking up in the city, they've escaped spiritual Halloween and they've made it to winter.

Oh, that's a really cool that's a really cool interpretation, like to me.

But like, they had spent this whole time in spooky Halloween and then they get to the city and it's snowing and it's winter and like they're out of it. I like that.

Oh, it's like you survived October. Welcome to two November, you know, because it's not foggy anymore. Now it's snowing like that, like that. And you're saying, OK, I don't know if that was the point. That's what I said. No, no, no. I liked I like how you go, by the way. That's very cool. I want to point out probably what I think is the best kill of the movie, the whole church scene.

Everybody is like the whole town's going to the to the church because the horsemen can't cross that threshold, which was kind like a fun little details like, oh, he is of the devil, you know. But I love the whole, like, hysteria because I felt like a lot of ties to witch hunting in this movie. Like everybody, nobody could trust each other. And everybody was like turning on each other. And of course, they're turning on the wrong people.

And like two guys, like kill each other. Somebody kills himself, I think. And then the horsemen just fucking kills. Dumbledore is such a cool he's such a cool kill. I love this. And just, like, fishes him out alive, he just drags him enough just to he can decapitate him. But he didn't bring up the whole body out. It was I love it. It was this one, one of my favorite parts of the movie.

Yeah. He went fishing and he threw that stake through that window, ripped him right out a scene that really scenes that definitely popped out to me that I just thought was just weird. I don't know. My girlfriend and I both were kind of like, this is it's a little extra was the scenes with Johnny Depp's flashbacks to his mom. I could have done without that. What was that know? Are you talking about the wardrobe choice with her?

All of it strange. It's like, what are you trying to tell me right now?

Yeah, I was like, why her boobs out so much? Like this is. Oh, this is so unnecessary. Yeah, yeah.

It was very noticeable the whole time. I was like just timba. And also have like a mom thing, one on the scene. Yikes, yeah, I could have done without all that. I mean, I think the only thing it does is that it shows his bias against the supernatural. Like everything needs to be grounded in logic. I can see, like, how that kind of like Seed's is bias against that.

But we don't see floating and stuff that, oh, I think she was a witch.

So it's kind of showing her, too. It's so weird.

So it just because, like, she does like the same spells in the dirt that Katrina does, and that's like why she gets killed. But it's we didn't need that for his motivation. Like you could have, just like he could just be a guy who was like a man of science or whatever. And we didn't need this back story to explain that. Yeah, I think with that and the last scene there trying to set up, if not a sequel, a whole series.

Oh, you think so? I think there was a lot of backstory put into this movie that is like kind of visited, but we never really see why it's there. And I think it would have come out in future installments.

Are you talking about with, like, the twin sister witches and stuff?

Yeah, I think there was a lot of, like, mythology that was inserted here that they kind of built on either with different characters or the same characters.

I kind of liked the twin sister stuff, but just because it was like short, it's like, oh, OK. That there's like that tie there. But again, I think they're just trying to pad the runtime, like, we got to get this to be like a movie length. So Joe's padded with whatever you got to him. Mm hmm. I struggled with this part.

Was there any sort of, like, message or like a lesson from this movie? All were kind of able to pull out of this? I I'll be honest, I kind of struggled with this. I don't think this is a message movie. Yeah. I just I feel like there's something there about like, you know, the real monsters, man, but not really. I just I don't know. I mean, I think this movie is just purely spooky entertainment.

I don't think that there was this wasn't supposed to be a thinker, even though you go cross-eyed at the end with the whole web or family tree. But what about you, Nate? Mm. I don't know. Listen to your elders or not listen to them. Should you.

Yeah.

Like every time the movie is like listen to your elders. But wait, maybe don't but listen to them. But not these. Well no.

Well the listen to your elders part kind of comes from like the second Khan spoke about Korean comes in there telling them like this is what's happening, this is what's killing us. And Johnny Depp's like, no, I'm going to investigate. And then once he actually sees that, he's like the I saw the Headless Horseman, he's what's doing this. And the guy literally says, I know. That's what we've been told. We've been telling you this, um, maybe just don't heed the warnings of your elders so you don't make mistakes of the past.

Maybe that's hey, that is something general or message.

Yes, I will take it. That's way more like God. I couldn't I was like, the answer lies somewhere between logic and like the supernatural. But that doesn't it. I don't know. I just. But I really like your take. I will take that 100 percent. Good job. Thank you. Put myself on the back already. So small talk. Should there be a sequel to this? No, it should.

It's just a strong word. Could definitely. OK, I don't think this was strong enough to want people to either care enough about the characters or the mythology to see more. I agree. Like we needed more investment in something solid. Um, you know, I like I like it more is just a short story. Just keep it, keep it the way it is. Don't use don't stretch it out. Don't monetize it. Too much would be good.

We'll be good. Yeah I agree. No, no sequel. Honestly I don't even know how you would do it and the story's been told.

So I mean obviously you'd have the family tree extended by several more generations and then you'd have the horseman come back and they'd get into this whole family tree stuff or what I actually thought of after that last scene. Um, why does Christina Ricci just, like, go with a strange man to a new city to live with him? But whatever? Maybe they form a detective agency, OK? Oh, the their assistant.

Yes, young Maspeth or whatever his name was. I'm kind of happy that he adopted him because his parents got killed.

This strange man just adopted this like teenage girl and young boy and brought them to a city to live with him.

Like what if that was so strange?

I kind of like the like the the duo with him in the in the boy. But yeah, it's kind it is kind of weird that the coswell came in and he left with two kids.

So but the only positive spin I can think is a. They start doing supernatural mysteries together. That's like a whole other town. I love it was investigate the American the American side of a mystery.

I mean, just think of how many ghosts there are in Manhattan or Brooklyn or Queens or whatever the are all over wherever this movie takes place.

Oh, my gosh. Can I drop a quick. This has nothing to do with anything we've been talking about. Can I just throw in this little fun fact? It's like the one fun fact that I found because there really wasn't it was more like production from facts that I was coming across. And that's not really what I was looking for. But this one, we get one a little Disney nod at the beginning of the movie. Did we catch it?

No, no, I didn't catch it either. I Googled it. So apparently back when Washington Irving wrote this back in the day, Disney popular popularized it in 1949. So Tim Burton does a little nod to Disney whenever that letter is being sent and they're dropping the wax on the letter, it makes a Mickey hit well before he presses it. I didn't catch that at all. Yeah, I didn't either. Again, I Googled it. No credit to me whatsoever.

I am simply the messenger. So, I mean, I think this movie in one way of having a spin off could be like a cool Disney World or like a Disney Park.

I think you could set an entire fogie, Creevey, Sleepy Hollow somewhere in Disney and get to, like, explore and walk around the cemetery and go into the houses and stuff and get chased by the horsemen.

And then they'll be like, I think that we need that would be there because they also say it'll be like a cool like when I was like haunted like Forrest like so like haunted house, like haunted for is like around Halloween, you know, go like walk through there, it'll be kind of cool.

I mean they kind of did that with Pirates of the Caribbean because I mean Pirates of the Caribbean I'm pretty sure was a ride before it was anything. Yeah. And they just now there's like a billion movies out for that. And like, two of them are at least pretty good, you know. So I wouldn't have. Yeah, but I was OK. One point seventy five of them are actually pretty good, everybody's opinion. But yeah, I think they could pull something out of their ass.

Right. And that would be the one I would want to do because because again, that's like my aesthetic that I go for, for October. I want I want that, not the other things that you get from it. But it was a of fun. I really I know like we kind of like nip or not really nit pick, but it's because they're a little bit more than it picks but has some legitimate complaints about this movie. But it's still like I think it's just purely entertaining.

Just turn your head off and watch it. It's such a lot of fun. Yeah. If nothing else, put it on while you're like making spooky cookies or something.

It's great for carving pumpkins. That's what we did last year. Yes. Or like at your Halloween party, you put this on in the background. Oh yes. Yeah. If anything, we don't have a Halloween party actually. Yeah.

Zoome Halloween party. Everyone's wearing masks. Yeah. Six feet apart.

Actually, Headless Horseman is kind of the perfect costume for a pandemic, right. Very true. I like that. Oh. I did want to ask Aurelien, what does horror mean to you? Because I've asked another guest on the podcast, oh, what happened to her? And I'm just curious, like because I personally, I, I've never gotten the whole, like, appeal with horror. Right. Because for me, I keep tying it back into, like gore and bloodiness and things.

Just general unpleasant tree that I don't like. But I know there are things to it that other people do appreciate that I'm just not seeing. So what so what do you see in these movies? What draws you to. Great question. I would say the thing I like most about horror is. When you feel unsettled and paranoid like that is the feeling that I actually want horror to give me, I don't want to be grossed out and I don't want to be, like, actively scared that someone is coming after me.

But things like creeping dread really like define horror to me. Things where it's not obvious that there's a monster. You have no idea what's going on. But like everyone is scared or like hysteria is a great example of horror where it's like there's no monster and we're doing it to ourselves using just the power of our minds. And that's terrifying. Mm hmm. So you like the psychological aspect of things like the thrill associated with it, OK?

Yeah. I mean, I like I guess I like the anxiety of horror more than like the fear. Mm hmm. I like the potential horror. So I don't really like gruesome stuff at all. I don't watch bloody uh. I just watched. Oh is that dumb fucking train movie Midnight Meat Train.

I'm just throwing that out there that I know, like trying to do similar travels on the one, the ice train, Snowpiercer, Snowpiercer.

Like that is just ghar horror, not what I was expecting at all. Like literally a door opens and there's just thirty guys and black masks and axes like that is just ghar to me. Yeah. So even if you didn't find any point to that.

No I thought I mean I really hate torture porn as a genre and like all this ultra violence that doesn't scare me and the way I want to be scared. Right. OK, it doesn't unsettle me. I mean it makes me nervous about other people, but it doesn't unsettle me, you know, the kind of cool. So, yeah, like when I read on my podcast, I rarely read things that are bloody or even people necessarily die. It's more like, um, is this person accurately perceiving reality or is there something interfering with them, perceiving reality and like that's so scary.

OK, well, OK, so with all these this all the psychological impact that you're kind of experiencing in your books and in movies that you see, how do you find do you sleep at night? Does does this not does this affect you at all, like going to bed?

Oh, honestly. I mean, I have anxiety naturally. So I think part of it is putting that anxiety on horror instead of real life. Like, if you can be anxious about whether this character is losing their mind, you're not anxious about you losing your mind.

It's a good point.

You know, I think we're living in a pandemic. But if I read about this guy who's really anxious about whether or not his neighbor is a monster, like, that's a totally different kind of anxiety I can focus on.

Mm hmm. Oh, that's interesting way to look at it. I still don't like to hang my hand off the bed or leave my foot out of the cupboard. I don't. I have. OK, ok, ok. OK.

I know there's not a monster, but it's still like ingrained in you. Mm hmm.

Okay, cool. I don't know, just whatever I watch these movies that just gets amplified and I'm just like I don't have to be. It's going to hold it. Don't want to get up right now. I don't feel like get my ankles grabbed even though it's never happened.

So I also the psychological horror is kind of nice because most of the time there's not a monster. Mm hmm. And then you just have to deal with like, oh, what does that mean about people? Which is way scarier. But you can totally go to the bathroom in the middle of the night.

Yeah, this is true. This is true. Okay, fine. Thanks for answering that. Yeah. I curious, I really enjoyed hearing your thoughts on that interview. That was really interesting to hear about.

I've been thinking about horror a lot because it's so broad and I never realized how broad it was as a genre.

Yeah, well you guys are definitely opening my eyes to what more that can be offered for sure. For sure. Well, thank you again all for coming on. It's always awesome having you on and thanks for coming back. I really enjoyed this. Would you mind kind of plugging your stuff? Where can people find you and your podcast? Sure. So you can find my podcast wherever you're listening to this one. And it's Spooky Sisters Book Club podcast.

And you can find me on Instagram at Spookies, Sisters Read and Twitter at Spookies. This read. And I just talk a lot about horror and sci fi and weird fiction. Yes.

Please be sure to go check her out. I will include a link in our show now so people could have easier access to that if they want to. But yeah, really enjoy your stuff. I listen to one of your recent episodes on The Birds. That was awesome. I really enjoyed that.

Yeah, I'm really getting into reading books that inspired big movies. So I read The Stepford Wives and then Just The Birds and both were so like thrilling and creepy and not at all like their movies. I was kind of shocked.

I like to is a lot of fun. So thank you again for coming on. And we will make and I will continue our October horror movie fest with a not so scary movie.

Next episode we will be covering Hocus-Pocus. A lot of fun. Oh, that's great. I love that movie. Yeah, BTU's, again, quintessential Halloween October movie Forever.

All right. Well, thanks, everybody, for listening to this episode of Film in the Rocks. Be sure to check out Orlean's podcast, Spooky Sisters Book Club and see you next week. Thanks early by.