Hello.

Welcome to Garra, BOLDYREAD, a Nottingham Forest podcast brought to you by Nottingham. I'm Max Hay, your host. For this Q&A special, we'll be with you for the next 30 or 40 minutes or so to discuss all the questions that we put out on Twitter that you have sent us and fingers crossed for a little bit of positivity. After Forrest lose to Spurs 2-0 on Friday nights, of course, Brennan Johnson's return under the lights ended up with Spurs being down to 10 men, but Forrest couldn't really capitalize on that, ended up losing the game 2-0 with more pressure mounting on Steve Cooper than ever ahead of the busy Christmas period. To discuss all of that and more, we're joined by Forrest, journalist, and of course, podcast regular, Sarah Claps and Sarah, how are you?

Hello. I'm good, Max.

Good. Thank you. Good. Ready for Christmas?

No. I was creeping on it too quick.

Dave, have you done all your Christmas shopping?

Yeah, lots of vouchers, mate. Really unimaginative stuff. But why do I give the freedom of choice? As you say, Christmas for me is how can I get up in time to get to Newcastle? That's my big issue.

I know that's a lot of question on the Forest fans' mind at the minute. It's that awful half past 12:12 kickoff on Boxing Day. Also joining us from the neutral camp today is Dan Bardale, sports broadcaster often seen on Skye, Sports, and Talk Sport. Dan, good to see you. Podcast debut.

How are you? Yeah, very good. Obviously, I'm the opposite end of the spectrum to Forest fans at the moment. Very much enjoying football. I'll come here and obviously I'm in a good mood, but I fail for Forest fans because it's never nice when you're struggling.

No, it isn't indeed. We'll get straight into it, really. A bit of a Q&A special today. We'll just start with a list of questions and we'll put them to the panel. Thanks for all your questions as well. Thanks for getting involved on garibaldi_radi on Twitter. Let's start. Sarah, let's start with you. This question comes from @Lathgaribaldy on Twitter. He says, Aside from deciding on Cooper's future, what do the panel think is the most important role or area in the club that needs sorting off the pitch so we can try to continue to make progress and get out of this rock.

What a question that is for the first one.

Yeah, it's a great question.

It's great. It really is. Thanks for bringing that. The biggest thing, and it's not necessarily easy to do, is stability. I know that's not really tangible, but it's having something solid in terms of personnel, not just on the pitch, not just in terms of the manager, but around the whole club, because uncertainty and constant flux, constant change, which is what Forest have had really for a while since the summer, is not good. It doesn'tit isn't the be all or end all when it comes to performances and results on the pitch, but it doesn't help. There have been a lot of personnel changes, ones that people perhaps wouldn't necessarily notice and see, so in terms of maybe physio department, analysis department, all things like that, it all adds up and it all just creates a bit of uncertainty and a bit of a lack of stability, which is so, so vital. We've seen what it does in terms of transfers with constant changes of ins and outs. It's not necessarily something that's easy to fix, but I think it would really help if Forrest just managed to have a period of stability. And obviously we've got that uncertainty over the manager at the minute, which just adds to that.

So that would be my thoughts, really, on something that Forrest could really do with sorting out.

Yeah, Dan, and just picking up on the back of Sarah's answer there, Dan. I mean, stability is talked about in football clubs a lot, and from an outsider point of view, with Forrest trying to almost continue to make that stability with Steve Cooper, that they've had a manager now for over two years. But at what point did the club actually go, Hang on a minute. You can't get stability when the team's losing games constantly. And it's a phrase that's talked about in football a lot, isn't it?

Yes, stability is massive. Having a cohesive unit and everyone pulling in the same direction at a football club is massive as well. Successful teams often have the whole football club aligned and it feels like everyone's pulling in the same direction. Forest have never really had that. Since they returned to the Premier League, it's felt like a bit of a mish-mash, different things going on in different places. Not sure who's making decisions in certain places. I'm not surprised that Forrest is struggling. It always has felt to me that just as Forrest get some momentum and you feel like things are going okay, they'll change something or they'll buy another five, six players and throw it all into the mix. I just feel that at the moment with Forest, they're probably about where I would expect them to be. I don't think Forrest will go down. I mean, we'll come on to the manager, obviously. I think the manager has been a big part, actually, of what's good about Nottingham and Forest. Without him, I think Forest probably do go down last season. I think he did a really underrated job. But I just think it's not just on the pitch.

He is off the pitch. Like Sarah said, it feels like every month or every few weeks, something will change. For a football club to be successful, I don't really think that you can operate in that manner. You don't see many successful clubs doing what Forrest do on a weekly or monthly basis.

Interesting point there. We'll go on to the next question. Dave, this one for you actually, I was speaking to you after the game on Friday, and you voice your concerns to me about the recruitment with Forest. Christian asks on Twitter, Who is exactly running the club on a day-to-day basis? Dave Murphy was never replaced a CEO, but there are several people in senior positions on the club website. Is it Marinacas Jr? Now, this is a question that's talked about a lot Dave, on Twitter. Who's actually making the decisions at Forrest? We know that Marinacas's son is involved, that's Miltiardis, as well as Ross Wilson, who's now the recruitment officer, chief footballing officer. And there's lots of other people involved. But Dave, can I go in from that question as well into recruitment? What have you made to the signings? And as Christian asks, who do you think actually is running the football club or a football club on a day to day basis?

Well, to take the two parts separately, Max, if you listen to Sarah's excellent answer and you listen to Dan's answer, they are giving the feeling that there isn't one defining force within the club that's bringing it all together. To the outside world, it looks like it would be Steve Cooper, but I think there are several people who are dipping their fingers into the and we could do without that.

There.

Is a lack of stability, I think. I think our lack of stability goes right back to five loan signings in the championship. If those players have been our own rather than loans, we wouldn't have had to sign so many. And from that point onwards, it's been a tumble dryer of players in and out. And I actually feel it's going to carry on through January because my viewers and certainly sat there in the trend turn on Friday night, I've always had my suspicions about the quality of the recruitment and the quality of the players that's been brought in. I felt early on in the season, some people were getting ahead of themselves. Ah, Forest will be all right. Forest will be mid-table. Forrest will be 12th, 13th, 14th. And I'm like, I want to see it on the pitch. And I sat there on Friday night and thought to myself, as I walked out the ground, I thought this squad is not good enough to stay in this league. The Gulf between Tottenham, Hotspur, and Nottingham Forest was almost frightening. We are so poor at keeping the ball. I actually think we're the worst team in the division at ball retention.

How many games since we got promoted? A forest dominated possession? Hardly any. How many times as a forest... I can only recount Liverpool at home last year as the only time a Forest midfield has dominated another midfield since we got promotion. And that was through brute force and ignorance rather than any subtle dissection of the opposition. I don't trust our goalkeepers, either of them. Month, Steve Cooper, all you like, but he can't clear the ball for Matt Turner. And Vlackadimos has not impressed me either. Our wide guys are trying hard, but they're showing to me why they were peripheral at the clubs that they were at before they came to Nottingham Forest. Our defense, yeah, there have been some good performances in there, but if you let five in at Fulham and you give away goals like we did on Friday night, then you're not doing your job. I justI just feel that we're not good enough to stay up at the moment. And I've never been fully convinced. I've had lots of people saying, This is a Premier League quality squad. Well, not enough of them are put in a run of consecutive, credible performances together.

At the moment, I would suggest that Harry Tofolo is the most consistent performer in our squad. A lad who's had serious personal issues to deal with, and he's showing the strength of to do it. He's becoming on the quiet a little bit of a cult hero, Harry Toffler. Nico Williams has come back in. In fact, our two full-backs since the Fulham debacle have been our best players, both of them. Marillo has only been playing professional football for about a year or 18 months. I think he's a recruitment success. Aurel Mangala, I think, has been pretty consistent, but I want oral to dominate a midfield. I want oral to open a defense up. We don't do it. We don't have a player that we can give the ball in the midfield and he sets the tempo not only for us, but against an opposition. I just feel that we are a relatively Bayesian outfit at the moment, and it needs to be different. Is a striker. If we're looking at recruitment, successes have been Tawho, Wanyi, and Marillo. And Tawho, actually the best player in the club in many ways at the moment, is the one who's not in the side, Tawho.

He's our best player. And the fact that he's not there is showing the deficiencies elsewhere. I'm afraid I do not see Chris Wood as being the answer. Smashing lad tries hard, but I think, and this might sound cruel, a light of former years. Divock, Kehrigie, the same. Now, add to that, I don't see any really exciting youngsters coming through from the Academy. Back in the day, we had Brennan Johnson, we had Ryan Yates coming through. And you take Yatesy, I mean, Yatesy, I mean, Wolves and couldn't fault the effort. Absolutely couldn't fault the effort, but effort will only take you so far. And I think there's a distinct lack of Premier League quality in this squad. And I worry that some aren't good enough and some have reached their ceiling. And I don't think there's enough at the moment of a core of players to build that necessary stability on and off the field to build around that. There isn't the kernel of stability that we need in this club. And my view walking out on Friday night was if that side had gone to Kenilworth Road, Turfmoor or Bramble Lane the next day, it would have been beaten.

And I've always felt, and I'm not being overly pessimistic or gloomy in my outlook. I've always felt that the second-season syndrome, where the novelty has gone from the crowd, where the novelty has gone from the team, is going to be really, really difficult. And I said I wanted 17th and I still want 17th. I'm actually less convinced that we can get 17th now. So something has to change. I do think the manager is going to go soon. I love the guy, but I think the change is going to come. But my biggest fear, actually, was that you might change the manager, but is the quality of this site going to be improved therein? I'm not so sure. I have grave reservations about the recruitment, Max, to be honest. The recruitment team that was brought in, if Ross Wilson was that great, he'd still be at Rangers. That's my view. Sorry to name names and call people out, but at the moment I do not see a Premier League quality squad to play for Nottingham Forest.

That's an interesting take. Dave, remember in the comment section on YouTube, you can always drop a comment of whether you agree or disagree with what we all say. Adrian, love on Twitter, also asks, which leads us quite nicely to this question. Actually, Dave, your point. Adrian asks, What has the bigger effect changing manager or getting reasonable tau cover in January? Obviously, meaning a striker. Would a Lopateghi or a similar manager change with the behind-the-scene circus on recruitment make a difference? Or would we be handing Cooper a competitor, better equipped given his future experience with us? Basically, obviously, I guess there, Sarah, probably a question that means, would it be worth changing manager when you've got a recruitment window coming up? You've got January transfer window coming up where you can get cover for Tywo, Owani. And would it be unfair to get rid of Steve Cooper, get a new manager and then give them a whole window for new players and a new squad?

It's such a difficult one to answer. I think if a one had been fit, I don't think Forrest would be in the position that they're in. I think they would have more points than they've got currently. But equally, Steve Cooper has made some mistakes. He's got some things wrong in terms of tactics, in terms of substitutions. It's so difficult to decide whether he's getting the most out of the players or whether the players are... I think they are letting him down to an extent with some of the performances, but would a different manager get more out of that group? It's such a difficult one to call. There's no one. Nobody can predict either way. Nobody knows for certain what would happen. I think there's probably a bit of both. I think, Steve Keper needs to get more out of the group, but players also need to step up. As Dave mentioned, some of the players that have been brought in haven't had the desired impact. The point that Dave was making about controlling a midfield, that was what Sangari was brought in for. That was his role. He's been pretty disappointing so far. I think he's shown flashes, he's shown glimpses.

He was starting to find his feet a little bit, but still not to the extent where we were thinking, He's running the show here. He's absolutely got a grip on this midfield. You'd like to think that with time, that will come. As we've seen with Mangala, as we've seen with a 1-1. But Forest need it now. Forest need somebody to step up now and put in those performances. They need players to really up their game. The problem they've got at the minute is the people or the players that are performing best are Nikko Williams and Ryan Yates. They're keeping out the likes of San Garay and Domingo and Olarina and the players that have been brought in in the summer. Can you change that now? Probably not, because they're the players that are performing best and the system that Steve Kupferr has picked, Nico Williams can't play in a back four. He has to play as a wing-back. In that sense, he's tired at the minute. How he fixes that? I don't know, because long term, you can't leave out the likes of San Garay and Domingos when the owner has spent a lot of money bringing those players in.

It's a massive headache. I don't know how he solves it. It's a tricky one. I think probably I've rumbled on a little bit, but I don't think there's an obvious answer to the question. I think it's such an unknown and trying to predict what will happen is anybody's guess.

It's very hard. And Dan, from somebody that's watched Forest this season and saw them last season, are you shocked at the difference in quality on the pitch? And a lot of people will say that on paper, this squad is actually good enough. But as Dave so eloquently said earlier, that it actually isn't sometimes, and the likes of San Garay should be performing more. I think that's the difficult thing with Forest at the minute, is this squad actually looks okay on paper, but it just seems like players aren't performing.

I would say that this is a side that I would have expected to be in a relegation battle. I just think with the turnover of players, I feel that it's unavoidable that Forrest aren't going to be in a relegation dogfight. You have to give players time, but it's hard when you're buying so many players at every window. And like you say, you need Forrest to be good now. I want he's injured at the moment. That's a blow because he is your goal score and probably within the Forest squad, he's irreplaceable. So Steve Cooper's operating without him and he's operating without Brennan Johnson, who was a massive part of what was good about Forrest last season. That front three, he was by Brennan Johnson in the one year, that's not there now. He's trying to find the right formula, the right mix up front. I don't think Steve Cooper's found that. You've gone from having Navas and Henderson to having Turner and Blasad demos. Now that's a huge downgrade in gold. There's no other way around that than that's a downgrade in goal. I thought all season when I watched Turner, he struggled. I was at the Forest game when they beat, Villa and Blasadame.

I wasn't really tested. I haven't seen as much of him as I have of Turner, but I think the goalkeeper positions are a concern. Then I think up top, without a one year, that there's not the goals. Then Dave and Sarah have said that in the middle of the park, there isn't that ball-playing player. But I feel sorry for Steve Cooper because I feel like he's getting given players. They're not necessarily players that he wants to sign. If he'd wanted a Reggie, Reggie would be playing, but he's not playing, which says to me, That's not a Steve Cooper signing. I feel like Steve Cooper is operating with one hand tied behind his back. On the managerial front, I think making a change is hugely, hugely risky for Forest. I know Lopetaghy has been spending a lot of time in the UK. It's been hanging around here, waiting for something to happen. But if I look at that Nottingham Forest squad, and I think who is that squad better suited for Steve Cooper or Lopetaghy? I would say Steve Cooper, because Lopetage came into Wolves. There's a lot of technical players within that Wolf squad at the time in a Matinho and never were there, plus the players that are there now.

And there was the basis of a Lopetage side. Lopetaghy is a volatile character as well. I think he comes into Forrest, sees the way they operate, players throwing in front of him that he doesn't necessarily want. That guy could walk, and then you just create an absolute mayhem and chaos, which has been what's happened to Forrest since their return to the Premier League. Steve Cooper did unbelievably to get Forrest a blast of his. I just think there's so many things going on. I would look at that league table and think, realistically, who do the Forest fans expect to be ahead of their other than maybe Bournemouth and Fulham who are pushing towards mid-table? Forest are about where I'd say that I'd expect them to be.

Yeah. And ahead of that Christmas period, Forest just sitting outside the relegation zone after Everton picking up points with their 10-point deduction. That leads us quite nicely into a question Dave, JS, Gurlin asks on Twitter, is a new striker or a new goalkeeper the absolute priority in January? I think so Dave.

I don't think there's any doubt about that. If you can't score a goal, then you can't be competitive. If you can't keep them out, you can't be competitive. All good sides are built on clean sheets. All good sides. I don't know if you know, there's a chap who used to manage us, used to say that. He was asked when they won the League in '77, '78. He said, We signed, Shielton, and we took off. And they got... Brian Moore asked him in an interview, so he won the League. Him and the back four, that's what Brian said.

And until you think- It's a very good.

Impression Dave. It's an average one. I've had a cough suite this morning, Max, that's what it is. But the thing is, my view on the goalkeeper is like Dan's looking from outside the fence and looking at Dan, I think, You know what? The Villa are romping away at the moment. We beat the Villa. But actually, since that game, Villa have gone in one direction and Forest have gone in another. And if you like, at the moment, our wins are almost outliers to the plateau of performance that we're on. The goalkeeping situation, I think back to Cailan Navas, I think back to Dean. I saw Dean playing for Crystal Palace this weekend at the Etihad and what good work Dean did, and I'm thinking, Aries, and we've been spoiled a little bit now in hindsight with our goalkeepers. These two, Matt Turner had a decent start to the season, but then it's tailed off. Oddy came in with a big reputation, having played every game for Benfeika last year, but I think there have been goals that we've conceded. I thought he could have stopped Dwight McNeil's goal for Everton against this when I look back at it at a different angle.

I don't trust either of them. In fact, maybe against Bournemouth on Saturday, I'm saying Big Wayne. Give Big Wayne the gloves, let him go. He can't be any worse. And as for upfront, at the moment, if you ask me honestly, where our next win is coming from, I don't see it. Could Forest go to Manchester United and win three-nil with his squad? No, Bournemouth have just done that. You know what I mean? I think Bournemouth are a level above us. Newcastle, even though they've got 600 in the casualty unit at the moment, have probably got a squad good enough to beat us. United who come next on the 30th at tea time. I was watching them yesterday to see, are there any chinks to them? And whatever you say about United and the chaos there, they still got a point to Anfield, which nobody has done this season. I do not see where our next win is coming from, and I do not see where our next goal is coming from, and I do not see where our next clean sheet is coming from. So to answer JS Gilling's extremely incisive question, a goalkeeper and a striker of some description, absolute necessities and the stability issue or the instability issue, because that's really what it is, isn't going to stop in January because we've got so many holes in our squad that need filling, it could go on and on and on.

It may get to the point where Fulham, if you look at Fulham, Fulham had like, We're up one season down the next, up one season down the next before they finally settled. And Forest may have to go through a period like that. But yeah, a goalkeeper we all trust. A guy said to me, Why don't we go and get David De Gale? And at the moment, David De Gale wouldn't be a bad shout for us compared to what we've got. And as for a striker, I watched our kids at Ackrington a month or so ago, and they play some lovely football. And it would be nice to think that one of those could come through a Julian Larsen or a Natif Kenate, somebody like that. But unfortunately, the gulf between that and what we need in the print... If you like, in a way, Forest have almost gone too far, too quickly, and it's caught up with them a bit. From the bottom of the championship to where we are now, it's an incredible progression, but it's almost like it went up so quickly there's a leveling off period, and there's some pain involved now with what we're going to do.

But yeah, I've rambling on a bit. That is my want. But a goalkeeper and somebody who can put the ball in the back of the net, absolute necessities.

Indeed, of course, fingers crossed that Forest will get someone like that through the door, Dave. But, Sarah, in terms of, as Dave mentioned there are about Bournemouth and Fulham, the two teams that came up with Forrest last season, all three of us survive him. But the worrying sign for me looking at Forest is that Bournemouth and Fulham are rising up the table and Fulham managed to put five past us. And then you look at Bourneworth and under a new manager, they're thriving. And Forest seemed to be having that second season syndrome similar to Leeds last season. And that is a concern, isn't it? That the other teams around us that you would think would be near us, whether that would be near the relegation zone or as Dan was saying there are just about realistically finishing.

17th.

At picking up points, and that's the worrying thing for us. And even the bottom three are as well.

Yeah, absolutely. I heard in one direction and other teams around them are in the opposite in terms of four. What I would say is that can quickly change. We saw that last season. Any team, and there's a lot, that in and around at the bottom, go up and down. If you're on an upward curve, then you soon get out of it. If that continues over the course of a season. But most teams that are in a relegation scrap will go through peaks and troughs and ups and downs and all kinds of twists and turns. We saw that last season. Forest are right in the thick of it, though, and that is the worrying thing. They need to find a win somewhere. They need to find some point from somewhere. As we said, looking at the fixture list, it's not easy at the moment to see where that comes from. But surprise results happen. The villa resort, for instance. I don't think too many people would have predicted that. Forest got the win. We hoped it was a starting point and a building block, same as the point at Mollonieu, something to build on. He's just getting it.

That's why... Steve Cooper has gone back to basics really at the minute in terms of setup, in terms of how he's playing, in terms of this low block and trying to be hard to beat. He's done it out of necessity. He's just trying to get some result, any way, any how, and hoping that there's something to then build on and start to get back to what he wants to do. But it's not easy. Christmas fictionist is always important. It looks like it's going to be particularly important at the minute because a lot can change in a small space of time.

Looking at the Christmas fictionist of Forrest, it doesn't make nice reading. Jordan's asked a very good question on Twitter, Forget the last two years, just go from what we are seeing. Do you believe that Cooper will turn it round? From your point of view, you've seen Cooper turn it round last season. He was under the pressure for not once, but twice, and was publicly backed by the owner with a contract and with a statement saying that they're going to be behind him. Do you think Cooper has still got enough about him to turn it round, Dan, for Forest?

I think he would, and I believe Steve Cooper would, would keep Nottingham Forest up, but I'm not sure he'll get the chance. I think, I can't remember who just said it, but the promoted teams are starting to pick up points here and there. It's felt like the whole season at the bottom three will be the three that came up. But I think Sheffield United will get better at home. Now Wilders in there, I think he'll galvanize them a little bit. Burnley, they got better last season in the championship. You'd expect there to be a little bit of an upturn there. I think Vincent company is a very, very good manager, and I've been really impressed with Luton, and it wouldn't surprise me if they stayed up. I still think Steve Cooper would keep Forest up. But then you've got to start looking at the moment that Forest are the closest towards those three teams, which I think will make the owner perhaps trigger happy. In the owner's defense, he did back him last season and he did keep him in the job and that was the right decision. He wasn't as shot, good and happy as he has been in the past.

He stuck with Steve Cooper. He can turn around and say, I stuck with him once. I just feel it's the right time to make a change now. But for the reasons I outlined before, I think it's a huge risk to get rid of Steve Cooper. I think he would keep Forrester, but I don't think he'll get the chance to do it. I do think there'll be a managerial change, probably at the start of the new year. The thing that might keep him in the job a little bit longer is that the games come really fast at this point, it's a challenge in a manager when there's a game every few days. Teams don't really tend to do that. I just hope for Steve Cooper's sake and Forrest's sake, because I really, really like Steve Cooper. And I really like Forrest as a club as well. I just hope they can pick up some results over the Christmas period because I don't want to say Steve Cooper lose his job. I think if he does lose his job, he'll rock up somewhere like Crystal Palace at some point. I think he'll do an outstanding job there because I do believe he's a brilliant manager.

I just think it's a really, really difficult job not in the forest at the moment.

Yeah, it is. Try talking about him every week, Dan. Billy asks on Twitter the very simple question of Cooper in or Cooper out, which leads us, I suppose, on to you Dave. I know you've always been a huge Steve Cooper fan, as we all are for what he's done for the club. But at what point do Forest actually say, Look, one winning 13 could be 14 if we lose to Bournemouth next game. Do you think, as Dan said there, that we'll have a new manager in the new year? Yeah, I do.

I do. Sadly, I do. And as Dan has said, the poor tents for Steve Cooper don't look good. And as Dan has also said, he's likely to go somewhere else and make us all think, You only realize what you had when it's gone. Do you know what I'm saying? So I think as a guy, he's a pure class human being. He's had some personal abuse, which is ridiculous. As a human being of the highest order, dignity, integrity, decency. I go back to that night at Fulham. He could have just skedaddled off, but he fronted up and he faced it. I'm sure Sarah was at his press conference after the game that night, and he was absolute class. But I think he's got the next three games. And given that the difficulty of those three fixtures coming up, I think time is running out for him, and I think a change will be made. I'm with Dan. I don't necessarily think a change will bring about any revolution at the football club, which is going through an evolution at the moment. I mean, if you look at last season, changing your manager brought one result, which was relegation to Southampton, Leicester, and Leeds.

Sticking with your manager kept another result, which is keeping Forrest in the Premier League. Do I think Mr. Marinac has got the patience? I think his patience will run out. If we take nothing from the next three, I personally think Steve Cooper will be done. He'll go with our best wishes and we'll move on to another era, another chapter of this great football club. And like we all do, because we're all fickle and we're all short term in our thinking, a lot of us, the next guy will come in and we'll get behind him and then maybe if he loses four or five games, we want him changed. If another one comes in after that, we want him changed. But I think Steve Cooper's sands are running out. I really do. And it sadens me to say that because my love for him is complete. There are people saying that he's lost the plot and he's not good enough. Did those people think that at Wembley? Did they think that against Liverpool last year? Did they think that against Arsenal on the last day of the season? If Steve Cooper has become a bad manager, I'd like to know when it happened.

I don't think he's been helped by the instability that Sarah alluded to, and Sarah knows the innards of our club far better than I do. And I think, as Dan said, I think he's got a hand tied behind his back. This idea of players being some of the manager's players and some of somebody else's plays, that can never work. If it's not unified off the field, how can it end up being unified on it? I do think a change is coming. Some want that, some don't. The level of love for Steve Cooper is actually remarkable given the way the results have gone. The thing is, I waited 23 years and I saw a revolving door of mediocrity that was an embarrassment to Nottingham Forest. Nottingham Forest was a standing joke about Forest's longest serving manager had been there for 23 minutes. It was ridiculous. It was embarrassing to be a Forest fan. That was the stick that we were beaten with. And then we're Forest can't keep a manager. Twenty-three years. And I'm lucky enough to have lived through the club era. My dad was part of the scouting stuff at the time, so I knew the club to a certain extent.

And I enjoyed those years when I was a kid. And if you'd asked me back in 2016 or 2017, when we survived on the last day of the season against Ipswich, would we ever get to the Premier League? I would have said absolutely not. When are we going to get a manager that we can love and that we can take to our hearts? And who, more than anything, is going to build a rapport from the pitch to the stand. I never saw it coming. And then, lo and behold, this guy turned up and he's done all of those things and I never thought it was possible. And a lot of people didn't think it was possible. So I think that's why there's a great love for him. Unfortunately, we're now at a point where something I think, has to change. Friday night was the first night I walked out to the city ground and I lost my hope. Because I thought, They aren't good enough. This isn't good enough, and something has to be done to change it. The worrying thing on top of all these worrying things like Dan's alluded to is, you might make the change, but you might not actually move any further forward.

Everything in football, every team you pick, every substitution you make, every 200 million pounds that you throw at something, it is a gamble. Gambles work, gambles don't. Only hindsight will allow you to see the validity of a decision you make. But I do think his time is running out. He'll go with my love. But the guy who comes in has got a lot to follow. If he turns it around and keeps it up, fantastic. But I personally think that we're going to need a little bit of a miracle. It was a miracle to get into the Premier League. It was a miracle to stay up. 30 signers who gives us stuff. That's what they were seeing at Crystal Palace when we were safe. And I think another minor miracle is required based on my particular view of this squad and its ability and its ceiling to keep us up this year, Matt.

And, Sarah, I'm just actually reading a question now that we had on Twitter, and it's a very interesting question. Chris asked, Assuming that Steve Cooper doesn't survive, whether that was after the weekend or after these festive fixtures, what does the day look like after his second? And you know Cooper much more than a lot of us do, and you've interviewed him. But that's a very... It's a very question that... I mean, it's incredibly hard to answer, but also I can imagine it will be quite emotional at the football club because of how many relationships he's formed and what he's done for the city and the fans as well.

Yeah, of course. It's easy to forget now, and it doesn't seem like it was that long ago, but when he came in, he galvanized the club, he united it. You forget how toxic it was in the stages before he came in when it was really looking bleak under Chris Houghton. It was really, really dark times. Steve Cooper was a breath of fresh air when he came in, changed all that. I think we forget a little bit about that now because of the current situation. I think the day after he goes, or I seem like it's happened, but if and when it happens, the Maranaki's family have tended to make sure there's somebody ready to immediately come in. I don't think we'll see the situation that the Stoke maybe are in or other clubs. I think when they make the call, they always have a manager ready to step in. Very unlikely, there would be that period where it's, who is it going to be? They tend to have somebody ready. I'm sure that would be the same. I think it would be a sad day because of everything that that Steve Kieper has done. But I guess alluding to the previous points, I think it's a gamble either way.

I think it's a gamble to stick with him, but it's also a gamble to change. There's no certainty either way. If you stick with Steve Kieper, Yassie showed last season that he can keep for his stuff. There's no guarantee. Not the minute, not with the way that they're playing and with the players that he's got and without a striker with two goalkeepers who were struggling to save any or keep any clean sheets. There's risks either way, and it's not necessarily an easy path. It's not an easy decision. Marinakis will know that. He knows the support that Steve Kepers got. But equally, yeah, Steve Kieper probably could keep Forest up again. Mr. Marinakis wants more than that. That's the crux of it. He wants more than just surviving. He wants to be further up the table. He wants to be in the top 10. He wants to be chasing Europe at some point. Just staying up isn't really going to cut it. As harsh as that is and as much as we can all point to the circumstances and the difficulties and the challenges, all of that plays into the results that Forrest are getting and the performances and the difficulties that Steve, Keeper is having to cope with.

Mr. Maranachys has put a lot of money in. He spent a lot of money on signings. Just staying up is not what he had in mind.

Agree. No, definitely not. Dan, in terms of the money that Forrest have spent, we asked Tom on the first podcast during the relaunch about where a realistic aim for Forrest were. He said, Just surviving. Simple as that. Second-season syndrome, if you like, just surviving. Do you agree with him? Do you think that this season should just be about survival?

Yeah, I think if you could consolidate in the Premier League for two, three years and you get the income that comes with that, if Forest were to go down now, the money they've spent, that's an absolute catastrophe. That's a disaster. Forest would be in probably serious breach of the financial regulations, I would think. I'm no expert on this stuff, but if they drop down to the championship. If we use Chelsea for an example, who've had a massive turnover of players, they were third, I think, the season before they did all the damage that they've done over the last few years, and they've dropped down to finishing 10th, 11th. Forest to spend all that money, have that turnover and play and actually stay up in the first place, I think that's absolutely incredible. So as I said before, Forest are where I would expect them to be. Maranachas has got designed on 10th. I don't think that's realistic. Teams like Chelsea are struggling to finish 10th. It's a high-quality top half of the Premier League. Now there is teams like Villa, Brighton, Newcastle, West Ham, who are probably going to consistently finish in the top half of the table, added to the six that usually finished around there anyway.

Top 10 is not realistic for Forest, and I look through that squad of players. For example, the wingers that they bought in a Langer and Hudson a Doy, good players probably can go on and be good players, but they're replacing someone who was absolutely superb for Forest last season, but they've never, ever had a consistent run of first-team football anywhere. They're still developing. If you're expecting players to come in like that and replace players that have left and players that are injured, it simply isn't going to happen. If Maranachis thinks that Forest should be a top 10 team, I think you need to reality check because Forest are exactly where I think they probably arguably even a little bit better off than they should be, because I look at that squad and I don't think it's there in any position. Defense, I think there's too many, perhaps maybe too many players who were very good in the championship might not be Premier League players, there isn't that dominant midfielder. Without a one year and they've lost Brennan Johnson, there isn't the goals. Gibbs White and Brennan Johnson took massive responsibility, massive onus last season. They wanted the ball.

It's easy for players to hide in those situations, and maybe that's a little bit of what's happened in the last couple of games for Forest when they've been turned over. Those were two players that wanted the ball and made sure they had the ball and drove Forest forward and got them to stay with the one-year. I don't really see that within the squad this time. The gives what isn't going to be able to do it on his own and one-year is injured. So where they are is where I'd expect them to them.

From that Villa fan perspective as well, Dan, you see that Villa have gone through three managers since entering the Premier League and now got UNI, Emery, who is a brilliant name and has done so much for the club already. But at what point did, especially when you went up with Dean Smith, did you go, Actually, hang on a minute. Maybe now is time to make that change. As maybe a lot of Forest fans are thinking... And a lot of Forest fans are comparing our situation to the Villa situation. Well, hang on a minute, Villa had to go through Dean Smith, Stephen Gerhard, and then now UNI, Emery. So at what point did Villa fans actually go, Maybe now is the time to make the change.

I think most Villa fans, when Dean Smith got the sack, didn't want to get the sack. Villa fans were devastated. There's parallels between Steve Cooper and Dean Smith, really. The only main difference being that Villa didn't spend as long away from the Premier League as Forrest did. So have probably always been a little bit of a bigger draw because they're only away from the Premier League for three years. There's a lot of similarities as clubs as well between Villa and Forrest, due to obviously previous European victories that we never like to talk about at all either set sets of fans. Villa had to go through that pain period. Yeah, too. Villa had to go through that pain period. They stayed up by the skin of their teeth that first season. Then the second year was all about consolidating. I think we finished 11th or 12th in that second season. There's nothing so far as won't do that. There was then that period of consolidation and then people at the football club started to look above Dean Smith and think, Can we get a higher profile manager? Then they got it massively wrong with Steve Gerrard.

He was an absolute disaster. He would have taken Villa down. Now, Villa have somehow managed to pull in an absolutely outstanding manager who will undoubtedly go down as the best manager I've ever seen at Villa. What Villa are doing at the moment and what they've done since her and I, Emery, came into the football club. We were 17 when he took over. I don't think Forest can replicate that. I don't think there's an Unei Emery out there. Villa are very, very fortunate that they got Unei Emery in when they did and he believed in the project and was back and has come in and I can't believe where Villa are compared to where we were a few years ago. You do have to go through this pain period. Inevitably, one day, Steve Cooper will leave and it will be a really sad day for Forest and he'll go. Even the Forest fans that want him out now will thank him for what he's done. I just don't think in this second season back in the Premier League that that's the time for Steve Cooper to go. I think it's when you've consolidated, when there's a bit of stability there, that's perhaps when you change a manager and look to attract someone who is a better manager.

That time is not now for Forrest. That is just going to add to the chaos if you get rid of Steve Cooper.

Yeah, Forrest's at home to Bournemouth on Saturday. Second home game in a row, home to Bournemouth before the Christmas, I was about to say Christmas break, but then Boxing Day with Newcastle at half past 12:00. I'm sure, Sarah, you'll be looking forward to the trip up there at half past 12:00 on Boxing Day. And that leads us quite nicely into the question that Andy said about who is the panel's first name on the team sheet for the Bournemouth game and for future games? He thinks Ryan Yates. And looking at Ryan Yates and the way he performed and he's been, he's a player that just gives it his all. He really does give 110 %, doesn't he, Sarah?

Yeah, you know what you're going to get with Ryan Yates, and it's the same whenever he plays. I think you need that player sometimes, certainly in the situation that Forrester in at the moment, somebody just plays with his heart on his sleeve will go into every challenge, every tackle, wins a few free kicks, gives a few away. But yeah, he's the player that he's going to dig in and you need that. He'd certainly be one of the first names. I think at the minute, Nico Williams as well, because he's been playing out of his skin since he came in. He's been absolutely brilliant. He's just looked like a different... He's just given a new lease of life. As I said before, he is a wing-back, he's not a fall-back. The system that Forrester are playing at the minute suits him better, which is why they've got to keep with the same formation, really. But he's just been really good. He's defensively been pretty solid. I thought he kept a lid on son pretty well. He's been on the other day, but can get forward, puts some decent crosses in, sets up a couple of goals.

I think he's certainly one of my first names or will be one of my first names at the moment.

Looking ahead to the Bournemouth game, trying to pluck any positivity potentially out of it. It's just a huge game this weekend. It's just another big game. I feel like just every time you go into the city ground at the minute- They all are. Yeah, they are. They are. They are. But as well, Dave, Steve Hodge, former Forest player, was saying on the radio that it just feels a little bit different and there's that nervousness at the minute around the ground. Do you feel that? And of course, the players must feel that as well going into Saturday's game.

You can't help but feel it, Max. We are on at the moment, one win, I think, in 13, we're on a down trajectory. As a club and as a club and as a family. It's not going well. Yeah, there's immense nervousness. I go to every game nervous. I always have done. I'm nearly 60. And every game I've bid to have been like losing weight as we go along and then a goal comes along for us and you think, A port and a storm. But at the moment, I don't know where my port and a storm is going to come from. And this lot who are coming on Saturday, we never beat them. They're our ultimate bogey team. I always feel that our great history, our size is a weakness against a Bournemouth or a Luton or a Brentford. These teams love... It's like centuries since we were European champions, but they say we're playing the ex-European champions at their big ground and they get a buzz off it. And this lot, I mean, they're an amazing story in their own right. We were a miracle back in the '70s winning the European Cup. This lot are a miracle because for whatNot long ago they were bottom of League two with a 17-point deduction.

It's incredible what they've done. And I can't see us beating them home or away. They've just got that certain... They're the club that a lot of our fans are born with. But I think they've got better players than us. Solanki would walk in our team. Philip Billing would walk in our team. Louis Cooke would walk in our team. Their goalkeeper would walk in our team. Take the way Forrester played the last few weeks compared to the way Bournemouth have played the last few weeks, and it's an away banker. Let's give credit to Bournemouth because at the start of Irioma's reign, it didn't go well. But they as a club and as a fan base thought, No, a sunny Rupland will arrive. And it's arrived and they are the form team. Their performance against Manchester United away was like, Wow. It was an eyebrow lifter. The last time I saw a team... I mean, effectively, Bournemouth won 4-0 at Old Trafford because they had a goal disallowed at the end, which should never have been disallowed. So it should have been 4-0. The last time I saw a team win 4-0 at Old Trafford and blow the doors off was Nottingham Forest in 1977.

And Bournemouth have just done that. We are not capable of doing that. I see Bournemouth coming and winning on Saturday. I really do. Because they're smaller, they're less conspicuous than we are, if you like. And they are stable as you like. They are the antithesis of what we are at the moment. And I don't see us beating them. If we do, I'll be like, Wow, where did that come from? As I've said to you, and I know we're coming into Christmas. It's a season of Glad Tidings, and I don't sound like it, Max, but I can't see us beating them. I think they've got a forward... I watched Salanky at Old Trafford. He was magnificent, brilliant. I go back to that game. The last two times Bournemouth have come the biggest to won at the start of the championship, the promotion year under Houghton, and they were good value for it. And then last season, if you like, we've had some hurtful defeat since we got promoted, but none was more hurtful than that Bournemouth defeat at home last September. We were 2-0 up and in control, and then they just completely destroyed a second half.

And I think they are a more advanced team than us. The table tells you to, tables don't lie. It tells you that Bournemouth is back in the forest. And if we beat Bournemouth, I'd be very, very surprised. And if I end up on a Bournemouth podcast this week, I'll be telling them they're going to win. Maybe just writing Forrest off completely and saying we've got no chance. Maybe that's the way to go. I don't know, but I don't see it happening this weekend.

Maybe it is. Dan, just finally then try and spread some positivity for us, some Christmas cheer. How do you see Forrest Bournemouth going? Because it's a real tough run of fixtures as well, isn't it?

I'm not going to struggle to give you any positivity. I feel like I will apply Bournemouth a few weeks ago and they were very, very good. They've come across a team and it's either the good times to apply them or a bad time to apply them. Bad times to play Bournemouth. But at the moment, they pressed so, so high, really, really good in transition, just got a lot of energy. They stuck by the manager maybe from the outside. You couldn't see what they were doing at the start of the season, but everyone was on side. Everyone singing from the same hymn sheet. They've stuck with him and they're reaping the rewards of that. I don't think Billing has been in the team recently. That's how good they've been. I think he's been coming off the bench, some NEO, cause-villa, all kinds of problems on the flanks. It's a tough game. Forest are going to have to show some resilience. The only positive thing I can offer is that I've always felt when Steve Cooper needs a result, he gets a result. And at the moment, he needs a result. So fingers crossed, he'll get one against Bournemouth.

The other thing I will say is that I was at the Forest Villa game in the away end. That day, everything like the atmosphere, that's probably the best home atmosphere I've heard when I've been studying in away. I thought it was incredible from the Forest fans singing Steve Cooper's name, or all the way through. I feel like Forrest maybe need to get back to that. I don't know what it's been like in the other home games, but the fans can play a massive part for Nottingham Forest. Really, really strong set of fans. When they're singing and they're up for it, that helps the players. That was one of the things that helped Forrest get over the line last season. I'd implore for Forrest fans, whatever you think at the moment, you're desperate for points. Just get behind the manager and get behind the team for 90 minutes because he did it last season, pulled out results when you didn't expect it. That's what Forrest need over this Christmas period. They need to pull something from somewhere.

Fingers crossed. It would be a nice Christmas present on Saturday, wouldn't it? If Forrest can pick up three points. That's all then from us. Sarah, thank you, as always.

Thank.

You. Dave, thank you very much. Enjoy your Christmas shopping this week. If you've got any to do, you were saying about your vouchers or something.

Yeah, really. Like I say, Max, not at all creative in that department. They're going to get vouchers. I'm really dull, but I hope everybody has a great Christmas. It'd be nice to be in Bournemouth. It'd be nice to be. Would it be amazing to come back here on January the first and we'd be in Bournemouth, Newcastle and Manchester United. And I think we might have some different conversations then. Fingers crossed. Look forward to see everybody. Thanks, Matt.

It's all right, mate. It's what dreams are made of that. Dan, thank you very much for coming on.

Thank you for having me. I enjoyed it. Hopefully, Forrest can turn you around and Steve Cooper can turn you around as well.

Yeah, fingers crossed. Thank you, everyone. As always, for watching and for listening. Remember to drop us a like, follow and subscribe across all platforms: YouTube, Spotify, and Apple Podcast. We will see you next week. Thanks, as always, for tuning in, and we'll see you very soon. Have a great rest of your week.