Hello. Welcome to Garibaldi Redd, a Nottingham Forest podcast brought to you by Nottinghamshire Live. I'm Max Day is your host. I'm with you live for the next 20 minutes to discuss the eagly anticipated clash under the lights tomorrow night against Spurs, Forest v. Tottenham Hotspur, as Brennan Johnson makes his return to the city ground in front of the TV cameras. A huge game for Forest and a difficult one too. To discuss the preview with me and more, I am joined by, first of all, Forest fan and broadcaster, George Butler. George, good to see you. How are you?

I'm good, Max. How are you? Thanks for having me on.

You're welcome, mate. I'm very good. This is a nice break from essay writing. It's been a week of university deadlines, so I'm looking forward to talk football for the next 20 minutes. Also joining us is Seb Jenkins from the opposition side. He's the editor of The Spurs-Web. He covers Spurs Home and Away. Seb, good to see you. How are you?

I'm good. Thank you. Thanks for having me on. I'm excited to chat some football.

Yes, definitely. George, let's start with you then, because Brennan returns on Friday night. That adds a little bit of it into the mix as well as Steve Cooper, as ever under pressure, which seems like he's on this one game rolling basis so far. What have you made to the pressure that Cooper has found himself under George and we come off the back of a decent point away at Wolves? But how big a game is this on Friday night, do you think?

Well, it's a huge game. I mean, it feels like we've been here before, as you said, it's the carousel of pressure that Cooper is constantly under. Like many Forest fans, I think it's quite unfair, to be perfectly honest. I don't think it really does the team any good that constant threat of who's going, who's staying, what's around the corner? Look, it's the nature of the Premier League. It's certainly the nature of the Forest leadership as well. But I personally don't think it does any particular favors to the team. Obviously, we saw the other day, the team that got picked really went out there, and especially in the second half, they seem to really be fighting for Cooper. There is that flip side to it in which the players are going out there knowing that in order to keep their manager, they need to go and put a really good performance out there on the pitch because it does feel like a bad result is the excuse needed to get rid of Cooper.

Yeah, definitely. And it certainly could see Steve Cooper gone from his job, especially if it's anything like we saw away at Fulham with that five-nil thrashing. We are live on YouTube and Facebook, Garibaldi Redd and Nottingham Forest News. So if you want to get your comments in, that would be greatly appreciated. And you can put them to the panel as well as George, Seb, or if you've got a question, even for me, and we will answer those in the next 20 minutes or so. Seb, from the Spurs perspective, this is a big game for Forest. It's a bigger game for Spurs too. There's no easy game in the Premier League, but this is a game that Spurs from your perspective, I guess, will be targeted as a win. And after turning it around with that poor form, you found yourselves in similar to Forest, although not that bad. And now you come to the city ground on Friday night after a 4-1 thrashing over Newcastle, really. How can you see it going?

Yeah. I mean, with Pastor Coughlin at the minute, I think every game he sets up to win, regardless of who it's against. I think it's going to be one, being on a Friday night, I think always seems to just be this melting pot for a really great game in the Premier League. I think we're just going to have two teams that are pretty open and attacking at their best. So I reckon we're going to see a fair few goals hopefully under the lights, which should be really good.

Yeah, definitely. And remember, sorry I was on mute then. And remember, if you want to get your predictions in for the game or any comments, you can do so by commenting on YouTube and Facebook. George, in terms of the actual game on Friday night, this will be a game that Forest, the under the lights, the atmosphere, the fans right behind Cooper most likely. I think we'll see great support of him because this could be a game like you said, if we lose, it's maybe an excuse to pull the trigger on Steve Cooper. So maybe the fans will see this as a farewell. How important do you think it is for Forrest to get back to winning ways, not just in general, but also in the City Ground? Because we've seen last season how important the City Ground was to make sure that Forest could pick up points and ensure Premier League survival.

Yeah, it's absolutely vital. I mean, we've seen this season to be fair, a marked improvement in how we play away from home. I mean, obviously, it couldn't have gone much worse from how it was last season, but we're so much more solid. We seem to have a little bit more of our wits about us when we're away and play a bit more sensibly. I don't think we're going to rely on our home from like we did last season where it literally was the sole reason we stayed up. But at the same time, in the Premier League, you have to be strong at home. I think we're going to really obviously need to pick up at the majority of our points there this season. This is the game last season where on paper, we're going into it thinking, we haven't really got much of a shot, but let's see what happens. How often last year, whether it was the Arsenal game, the point against City, the Liverpool win, did we go into the City ground games against one of the big teams thinking, I'm not sure about this. In that crowd, that atmosphere, the players really just grinding out a victory or a point.

I'm hoping tomorrow we can have more of the same. I think the atmosphere is going to be special tomorrow. I think it will be, as you say, there is a lot of love out there still for Cooper. I think people are slightly realistic that who knows how many games he may have left at the city ground. I think it will be a special atmosphere. Being on a Friday night, as I've said, is always good in the Premier League.

Yeah. Also something more to add to it as well with Brennan Johnson making his return. George, do you think that's a player that the Forest have missed recently? Creativity-wise, there's a cry out amongst fans in the terraces for having that player that can almost be the link between midfield and the final third. Brennan really was that.

For us, wasn't he? I don't think we could have missed a player more, to be perfectly honest. I don't know last season, some people felt like he didn't do enough or didn't feel like he was involved enough, but I think we're all looking at the team now. We brought in some decent replacements. It's totally not knocking the wingers that we brought in, they're good, they're decent players and they've done a pretty good job. But the difference in his quality is when he's not there this season is so marked. Even for Gibbs White, for example, he hasn't got that outlet that he had every single time that he picked up the ball, it was like, where was Brennan? It wasn't just getting the ball to Brennan, it was knowing that when the ball was at Brennan's feet, he was going to do something. That's the thing. He always produced that moment of magic. Even if he didn't touch the ball for an hour, he would always produce that assist or get that goal or he'd have that shot would win the corner for and score from. I think we've really, really, really missed that because actually, even when you're not playing well to have a player of that quality, always threatening, always being able to create something is a huge loss.

I think we've really missed him. It's not a surprise. Obviously, we all know the reasons why we have to sell him. But I miss watching him play as well. He's such an exciting player to watch because he's so quick. I'm sure Sev's been enjoying him playing for Tottenham, but I miss watching him and I'm pretty sure he will get an amazing reception tomorrow evening.

Yeah. Seb, how has he settled in to Spurs, judging from watching him on the TV and watching him play? He seems like he's settled in quite well. Is he enjoying life at Tottenham?

Yeah, I think he's getting to that point now. I think he struggled maybe a little bit at the very start as players do when they make a bit of a step up in the Premier League. He was in and out of the team with Rich Artison and him alternating on the left. He picked up an injury as well. But I think his game against Newcastle last time out, I think, was the best 90 minutes that we've seen from him. He was just unplayed. But you guys know how fast he is. Playing him off the right side now, which I think is where he'll probably start against you guys. Yeah, he knocks the ball past him and just goes. I think he's really, really starting to hit his stride now in the new team, playing in a new system under Postercod Blue. But yeah, it's great to hear the glowing reviews from you guys when he really gets to his peak as well.

Yeah, definitely. And he was a great servant for Forest as well coming through the academy and being loyal to us during the bad seasons and the good ones, of course, ultimately with promotion. Dan says in the comments, which defender would you put on Brennan? George, I suppose that's a question that nicely falls on you, really. Who would you be putting out of that, Forest, whether we play a back five again or, Forest, go for the classic Cooper back four?

I think we will play a back five. I think we played pretty well in that second half midweek, and I think we will use that back five to hopefully slightly combat that Spurs system with the pace on the wings and obviously, Brennan being a part of that. I think obviously the left-sided centre-back is going to play a big role in that space that Brennan can get into in behind. I think that's going to be a really important position in terms of marking Brennan. In terms of the left wing back, well, I think, Toffs had a great few weeks, few months, and I think he's been one of the players that has really put it out there and left everything on the pitch. A bit of a cliché, but he has and he really wants... We saw it in that interview we did after the game. Obviously, he got the goal, he almost got a second goal. He really wants to be on that pitch at the moment and it feels like he's really fighting for the manager. It's a no-brainer that he'll be on there. I think obviously he's not got the pace that Brennan's got, but he's played against him a lot in training, no doubt.

Hopefully, he'll be able to bring some of that into the game. But there's threats all over that front line from Spurs. Obviously, whilst Brennan is an incredible player and we all know all about him, I'm probably slightly more worried about Son through the middle.

Me too. Get your comments coming on YouTube. Toby says, Of course, we missed Johnson, but the fee made it very hard to turn down. Marty says, Put Tofalo on the defender for Brennan, as discussed then just by George. Dj Tone says, Johnson has been playing on the left, so Nico will have to pick him up if he plays. Then Barry finally saying that Merillo is showing he is the best transfer for Forest. From that Spurs perspective, George just mentioned there, Son, he was in fitness and injury doubts, but did start against Newcastle and had a great game in the 4-1 win. How dangerous is he for Tottenham? And how well has he done under Postercoughlin? Not only is the whole squad done well for Tottenham this season so far, but it seems like Postercoughlin is really getting the best out of him.

Yeah, I think giving him the captain's armband as well, he's really stepped up since Cain left. I think at times he can get lost a little bit in that central role. He's not your typical number nine that's going to hold the ball up and bring others into play like Cain used to do for us. But he actually played off the left against Newcastle with Rich Arleson upfront, and I thought Sun looks like a different player, like the Sun of Old, just taking the ball, going up against Trippier one on one. And just getting past him every single time. I reckon you guys will probably have to contend with Sun on the left and Rich Arleson upfront again come tomorrow night.

That sounds great.

Optimistic as ever now. Thanks, Seb. But in terms of the job that Poster Coughlin has done, Seb, for me, he's such a likable manager. Similar to Cooper, speaks very well to the press and just seems really like the fans love him at Tottenham, but also fans at other clubs seem to love him. Just how good of a job has he done for Spurs this season?

Yeah. I mean, he's transformed the club completely in a matter of four or five months. I think with the greatest respect to them as well as managers. But when you're coming off the back of Conté, Marinho, and Nuno, we were so starved of attacking football and exciting football. He's come in and just shaking the club up, giving the fans what they want, but it actually looks to be a very sustainable and progressive model. I think we're just loving life at the minute, just game to game. Not too fast about the results at the minute, but just enjoying to watch in top and play proper football again.

Seems like Forest might need to get back to that as well, George. I mean, in terms of the football that Steve Cooper is playing at the minute, and we mentioned there against Wolves, he changed it again and he's struggling to find that consistency in the Forest squad at the minute. And we touched on it here on the Garibaldi Red as well after the Wolves game about the team selections. Do you think, George, that Cooper's got such a difficult job because of the sheer amount of players in the squad? Almost it's so hard to find that consistency when one week he'll field a team and we go and lose five nil to full him and then he'll field a completely different team. And we actually have quite a solid performance against Wolves. It's so hard for a manager to actually find that consistency, isn't it?

Yeah. I think last season we obviously really struggled in the first, what was it? It was the first two months maybe in finding the best team, and then we found it. Then we found it. Probably a bit before Christmas, we found it. Then we were fairly consistent with the team that we put out, barring the injuries, etc. He seems to have really struggled to have found his team. It is understandable, obviously, a lot of additional players. I think obviously we're now seeing a team that's been put out, which has a lot more of last season's players in the starting 11, and it seems to be the team that is performing a little bit stronger. I think there probably is, at the end of the day, in the the football environment, I'm sure there is a lot of pressure from above to place certain players when you've spent a lot of money on them or when you brought them in the first place at all. However, I'm not entirely sure that too many of the players we brought in in the summer have been an improvement on the team that started at the end of last season.

I think the other big thing is obviously without our main man up top, I think we really, really struggle with a lack of quality depth in that forward position. That's why I do think the pressure on Cooper is extra harsh, because it's very, very difficult in the Premier League to get results when you haven't got a really decent quality striker up top. I think that that's a big challenge and no matter who you're playing behind him, we're always going to slightly struggle for goals.

Yeah, Steve Cooper had his press conference earlier today. Our very own Sarah Klepson was there and she told me Cooper was pretty happy. He seemed like his usual self. And he said that Tywo was still having a positive impact on the Forest squad, despite being on the sidelines for what will probably be another few months. And Sam, in terms of, again, from that Spurs perspective, do you think this is a game that the Toptenham fans will be targeting? As I don't like to use the word easy three points because there is no easy game as discussed earlier in the Premier League, but this is a game that surely you'll be coming to the city ground on Friday night and hoping for a good win.

Yeah, definitely. I mean, like you said, there's no easy wins. Up until last week, we had to Newcastle, we've gone five without a win. So I think it would be stupid to just rule Nottingham Forest out completely. Typically this season, even in those five that we couldn't buy a win, the first 20, 25 minutes, we were just all over the opposition. Probably should have gone two, three up in every single one of those games. I think if you grind out those first 20 minutes and you're still at nil-nil, then yeah, I think you've got every shouter getting a win, let alone a draw. Yeah, this Tottenham team has got a lot of injuries at the minute. There's a lot of areas to get at, I think. With Postercoughlin and the way that he plays, there are gaps at the back, especially if you've got pace up top. So I think it's just going to be a really, really open game and it depends which team plays at maybe 100 % and which team plays at 90 %. But it is going to be exciting, I think.

Do you think Forest will try and target those gaps? George, and I suppose Cooper being the man he is, will try and get a game plan that can really take the game to Spurs, really. And I think the biggest thing for Forest would actually be to start well and probably get an early goal to get the crowd behind them.

Yeah, definitely. The only thing on that, we have had a bit of a tendency this season to score that early goal and then really sit back from an early stage where it's like, come on, keep... I am slightly cautious about that. But yeah, I think he's going to probably pick a very similar team to last week. I think it will be a team that's going to be fighting and scrapping. I think Yates will be in there obviously with Nico and Toffalo. I think it's going to be full of players that are going to really be fighting and scrapping and working, working hard. I think we are going to be out from the blocks and really putting pressure on Spurs from the first minute. Then I think it's all about who he picks up top. I think that's maybe where he might change it, whether he wants to bring Hadson and Doy and look to play three up top or whether he sticks with the two. But clearly no matter which direction he goes, we've got pace. That's something that we have been looking at over the last few weeks, isn't it? Playing at early ball and really looking to get our quick players in behind.

I'm sure that will probably be a trend that we see again tomorrow night.

Yeah. Seb, just finally then, how can you actually see the game going overall? Predictions from a Spurs point of view?

I'll be wary, as thing is that it's a Forrest podcast.

It's all right, mate. You can say what you want.

I would hope that Tottenham are going to get the win. I'm hoping that the Newcastle Wind is kickstarting some run of good form again. I think earlier today I predicted 3-1, Tottenham, so I'll stick with that.

Yeah. And certainly that result could probably see the pressure mount on Steve Cooper. Richard asked earlier, do you think that Cooper will go if we lose? And there's quite a few comments as well coming in about Steve Cooper. One here from Marty saying, My only concern about Cooper is that he has these better players, but he doesn't know or hasn't figured out yet how.

To utilize them. Has he, Max? Do you think he has got better players? Do you think he has a few? I'm sure there's a couple for sure. But do you think he has got a significantly better squad this season? Genuine question.

I think on paper, George, that you could argue that Forest squad is better than last season. We've spent what, 50 million on San Garay record transfer fee. But I think the problem that the Forest fan, I'm sure you agree the minute, George, I think it's more that consistency than ever and getting the best out of those players. I actually agree with Marty. I think the likes of Gibbs White haven't been at his best recently. Hudson and Doy, albeit he's been obviously a little bit injury-prone recently. The same with the Langer. Do you think then, George, from your point of view, that the Forests have actually had a better squad on paper last season?

No, probably not. I think that the only thing I would say is the Brennan factor, in which I touched upon earlier, is that he could pull a rabbit out of the hat when we were playing well, when he wasn't playing well, when everything seemed against us. And it's like, Oh, he's just taken on a player, crossed it in and Tywell's knocked it in and we scored. I think losing that is significant. I don't think we've signed a player nearly as good as Brennan. I think obviously we spent a lot of money on Zangara. I'm really, really hoping we haven't seen the best of him yet, that's for sure. But we all know that it can be really difficult to jump straight into the Premier League and all of a sudden and look at a multi-million pound player. Let's obviously give that time. But I think we've signed some really good players. I think we've clearly signed an incredible centre-back, Marino. But I don't think the squad is so much better. I think our goalkeepers last year were better. We had a brilliant... We had probably a very similar defense to last year, but we've obviously lost a great left back.

Oriel is not as fit as he was last year. Yeah, as I said, I think the squad is better. I think the sighting 11 arguably isn't. That'd be my take on it. But I can see how you could argue by the way.

Yeah, and I think one thing that we do like, George, and you look at from Sebs perspective, a Tottenham squad where it has an abundance of players that can change games and come off the bench. Forest don't have that at the minute, do they, George? And and even the likes of Allanga and Hudson-A-Doy, who, of course, were signed on a bit of a cheaper option to replace Brennan, they even haven't been performing to the best of their ability at the minute, or at least what we could potentially see from them as well.

I mean, Allanga would be the most incredible sub. He would be the most incredible sub. You could imagine a centre-back 70 minutes in thinking.

Oh, no. We saw it at the Arsenal game.

Yeah, do not put him on. He would tear me apart. He's going to absolutely outrun me. Obviously, he's been forced to start every single game, so we haven't been able to see him come off the bench. I think you're obviously right. We do lack really class quality attacking options coming on from the bench and just making a difference. That's a big factor. We've seen it quite a few times where we've lost goals and we've not been able to make an impact in the final third of the game. I do think in attacking positions, we lack that depth.

Yeah, Ian says, Myles, better this season in terms of, I guess he's talking about the squad on paper, just needs to get them played in the right positions. If we get Nuno and play three at the back and wing-back, Sengari must fit in front of the three in a diamond and in front of these three. And it sounds like you could probably go for the at Forrest job if Cooper does get the sack. I mean, this.

Is.

The sad thing, isn't it, George? And I'll come to you in a minute, Seb, as well from your perspective of Steve Cooper at Forest, is that it seems like he's on this one game rolling basis. Do you think that if Forrest lose on Friday night, tomorrow, that he could possibly be gone? And do you think it would be the right decision to get rid of him?

Two different answers. First one, yes, I think he probably will go it. I mean, if reports are accurate, then he's clearly on a knife edge. Obviously, it sounds like a good excuse to say goodbye would be the way the club wants to go. Clearly, if we win, it's very, very difficult to get rid of him. If you keep going on a winning role, it's difficult to... But there was a story earlier today which you've no doubt read in which he was saying, This isn't sustainable. We can't go on little runs where we get a decent amount of points and it's like, Okay, he's okay for now. Then we go on and we run and we lose three or four games, which is going to happen in the Premier League. Then every single time it's like, Oh, his job is at risk. It's not sustainable. You need to either move on or you need to go, look, we can make this work and this is our man. The second part about, would it be sad to see him go, do I think it would be fair to see him go, no, absolutely not. The job that he did to get us up, say no more.

The job that he did to keep us up last year, absolutely incredible. We're not even in the relegation zone. We've had a really bad run, obviously, but you've got to look at it as beyond just these little tiny micro trends. You've got to look at it as a season. So far, we're still out of the relegation zone. I don't believe there are that many Forest fans out there that truly believe we, as a team, especially with the injuries we've had in four positions, are a team that should be in the top half of the Premier League or even near the top half. The reality of our situation is right now, staying in the Premier League for another season, unless we have no injuries and we've got a full strength squad. In my eyes, staying in the Premier League would be a job well done. Right now we're out the relegation zone. So I think it would be a ridiculous decision to get rid of him. But would I be surprised? Absolutely not.

Yeah, certainly with it being a resource-driven basis as well, a business as well. Seb, in terms of your perspective, watching Cooper and watching Forrest in the Premier League last season and of course, this season for the second season, Tottenham have had numerous managers, similar to Forrest constantly changing. Would you think it would be a silly decision for Forrest to get rid of Cooper giving a bad result against tomorrow?

I don't know if this is the game to make the decision on. Like you said, you're still five clear of the relegation zone at the minute. I just think after all he's been through with the club and after all he's done for the club, he probably deserves a little bit longer, at least get him to halfway through the season and see where you're at. It I have been expecting for us to kick on a bit more, but you've got to wonder if you get rid of him, who is going to come in and are they going to do a better job than someone that's been there so long and knows the club so well? I don't know. I just football in general, especially the Premier League, I think clubs could sometimes do themselves a favor by giving a manager the benefit of the doubt for a little bit longer rather than just always giving into the pressure and getting rid of the first sign of trouble. Yeah, I hope he stays, regardless of what the result is this weekend.

We saw that last season, Seth. We saw last season. The teams stuck with their manager, were the teams that in the end stayed up. That's a lesson that I feel like if we ignore what we might regret, Max.

Yeah. Finally then, George, your prediction for tomorrow night?

Spurs has been a bit all over the place over the last month or so, so it's really hard to predict. But obviously following that victory the other night, it could go one way or the other. They could absolutely kill us and it could be three, four, one. I think there's goals in it no matter what. Or it might just be one of those city ground nights that everything goes our way. We get a bit lucky and we end up winning 2, 1. Honestly, I think given the way Spurs been playing, I might copy seven, go three, one Spurs. I know that's being really, really negative, but I would love it. I would love it if we can nick something. What do you think, Max? What do you think?

I'm going to be positive and say... I've just seen a comment actually from Jordan that says, Forrest, they're going to win 1-0. So I'm going to go 1-0, but I also think a bad performance and a bad defeat for Forest, if it was in the case of a 3-1 loss like you just said then, George, I think that could sadly be the end of Steve Cooper. But given the results and given the pressure he's under, you can't really say it hasn't been coming.

So fingers crossed. That was a really negative response for me. I'm going to change my mind. I'm going to go, we're going to win. Come on, George. We're going to win two-one. There we go. Yeah, come on. A bit of positivity. You're right. I apologize.

Exactly. A lot of Forest fans have said that we've been positive on this podcast, so let's keep the positivity going. Right, that is all from us. We will see you on Saturday morning after the Forest game for a chat about the game against Toptenham. And of course, we'll keep you updated with whatever happens on Steve Cooper if Forest lose. We'll then see you next week for our main episode as well. Thank you, George, for joining us.

Absolutely. Pleasure. Thanks, Max, for having me.

You're most welcome. Seb, thank you. I was going to say enjoy tomorrow, but don't enjoy it too much.

I'll enjoy the game, at least. Maybe not the result.

You never know. Thanks for tuning in, as always. Thanks for your comments on this edition of Garibaldi Red. Remember to drop us a like and leave us a review on Spotify and Apple podcasts and subscribe and follow on YouTube. We will see you next time. Have a great rest of your week. Bye-bye.