Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Garaboldy Red podcast. It is Groundhog Day, it seems, although we were only here just this morning talking about a possible points deduction. But as of seven o'clock on a Monday evening, Forrest have been handed a four points deduction. It wouldn't be good to play the intro music, and again, that's not good. See, the four-point seduction has affected us all in many different ways. As I say, Forrest handed a four points deduction for breaching PSR. We expected it. It could have been worse. It could have been a lot worse, but it isn't brilliant still. I will read out the club statement in a minute, but just to break it down a little bit, Forrest Basically lost over the threshold of 34.5 million of their threshold they're allowed. It also went into consideration for the Premier League that Forest were a Championship side, and given the losses are slightly different We all know the rules are extremely confusing. I'm not a financial expert or an accountant, thank God. I mean, I struggle to be a podcast host sometimes, so I'm glad I'm not an accountant. It was supposed to be a six-point deduction originally.

The Premier League even posed an eight-point deduction at one point, but due to Forest's basically cooperative stance, they were reduced a little bit there, and then also reduced by two for the mitigation of the sale of Ben and Johnson. It's all confusing, but we're going to try and react to it in the next hour or so. Joining me is Mark Turner and Callum Castel. Both Forest fans are now regulars to the podcast, so good to see you both. Let's kick things straight off, and we'll start with you, Callum. Just how are you feeling? A little bit relieved, maybe. And just given the news and your thoughts now sum it up for us.

Yeah, I think relief was the overwhelming feeling at the time. I think when it first came out, all those, it seems like ages ago now, but when it first came out, I was thinking, I was fearing the worst with Everton getting 10 points. And that was where my mind was heading straight away with 10 points. And then when they called some back and got it to six points, I thought, okay, six might be the base. So I've had it in my head recently that it might be six points. We might get it knocked down to four points. We might get it knocked down a bit more. But I thought that would come after the appeal, maybe after the end of the season. So I'm happy that the two points have been taken off and we're on four now. I don't know what the appeal thought I know what it is, but I don't know what it means. I don't know. Some people are a bit confused. I don't think anyone knows whether we could lose points if we appeal. I think, apparently, the two points is mainly based on the cooperation. So Nobody's really clear.

I think it's Kieran Maguire, the financial expert. He said just now on Twitter that there's a slight chance that we could lose points if we appealed, but he wasn't really too clear on it either. So I don't think it's That's something that anyone's too sure of. If we could lose points by appealing, I'd like us not to, because I think that we can make something of four points. If it was six points, if it had been six points or if it ever did become six points, I think that's a really difficult amount to overcome, especially with loot. And I think we're in touching distance of them now. And I'm just happy that we're there. I'm a little bit annoyed about results recently, well, very annoyed about results recently performances. I feel like if we'd have beat Luton, then we wouldn't be in the relegation zone now. I thought it would be quite funny that we'd have been in the relegation zone when Luton were playing Bournemouth at halftime, and then we'd have been out of it by the end of that game. And then got points deducted and still been out of it. If we'd have been looting on the weekend, it would have been typical forest.

But we're only just in the relegation zone now, and I think we can do something about it if we use the siege mentality and call it back. You saw what Everton did after they got theirs taken off. If we can do that, then we should... I don't want to say we should be okay, but we've got some good fixtures, especially at home. But yeah, relief at the moment.

Yeah, our running is a lot better than the other sides in the bottom three. I will just break it down as Callum said there about Kieran Maguire, basically three points for a breach, then three points for the amount of breach, then it takes minus two off for mitigation and cooperation. In terms of Everton didn't deal with the Premier League greatly when they went through it, they submitted false accounts, and that's why it's gone on so long. Forest did go with the nice approach, shall we say, to the Premier League, which let them off a little bit at two points for mitigation due to the timing of sale of Brennan Johnson. It's all very confusing. I would highly recommend you do a bit of searching on YouTube for Kiera Maguire. And as Callum says there, he so eloquently explains the rules and basically breaks it down to simpler terms and not be so confusing as it is. I'll bring Mark in shortly, but I just want to read some of the club's statement I've got to given Forest's, I think, actually really good response. Forest said in a club statement, so forgive me for reading, that Nottingham Forest is extremely disappointed with the decision of the Commission to impose a sanction on the club of four points to be applied with immediate effect.

Notwithstanding our disappointment, we thank the Commission for agreeing with this matter on an expedented basis. The club consider it to be essential to the integrity of the league, but we are extremely dismayed by the tone and content of the Premier League submission before the Commission. It also goes on to say about Brennan Sale and how they argued mitigation, but that wasn't really taken into consideration. They also believe that the club showed cooperation and it reinforces its disappointment in the Premier League. Of course, Forest have had many issues with the Premier League in terms of refereeing decisions and VAR and letters to the PGA, M-O-L. So I guess Marianackis and the Premier League probably aren't on best terms at the minute. Mark, let's bring you in all the way from America. Thanks for coming on, first of all. I appreciate it. And hopefully, it's a lot more sunnier and brighter where you are, the mood and the weather. Just talk to us how you feel about the points deduction and whether you still think Forrest will be okay.

You mean after you put me on the spot on the last show?

Yeah, I did. After I posed that awful question to you about Forrest getting relegated.

Internet sensation unwanted. Well, yeah, it's great to see you, Max, and you too, Callum, as well. It is bright and sunny here in beautiful Colorado Springs, I can confirm. I'm looking at a Pikes peak right now, America's Mountain, which is capped with snow and looks absolutely gorgeous. Sunny, I'm sure, than behind closed doors at the city ground, where they'll be wrestling with these four points and how to respond. My response is really one of frustration, period. I don't know how many times Callen alluded to the fact that this is smoke and mirrors, essentially. You use different terminology, but it is that apacity that makes this so frustrating. The structures just don't seem evident to the public. It's difficult to know what's coming down the line. And I don't understand. I don't understand why it has to be like that. I don't understand why the Premier League aren't clear about what the punishments can be in terms of number of points. I know there's some loose correspondence between how much you go outside of the requirements and how many points you'll be docked. That really seems to be finger in the wind stuff. So I think that more than anything is maddening.

That being said, with a very tenuous connections I have with folks in and around the FA, I was hearing six points for quite some time. So the fact that those two points have been applied for mitigation, bringing us down to the four, I think is a good thing. And I don't know that it would be in Forrest's best interest right now to appeal. That being said, Max, and we were joking about you put me on the spot on the last call on the last part about, do I think Forest are going to survive or not? And looking at the remaining fixtures, I can see it's getting an instant bump. Again, against Palace at home. To Callum's point, I can see it's doing a bit of an Everton there. But as I look at the remaining fixtures, I am really struggling to see Forest getting amassing double figures in number of points in the remaining nine games. Given that we're only now on 21 points, I struggle to see a path to 35, 36, which might be the very minimum we need to scrape by. So I think we're still in worrying times.

Yeah, worrying times for sure. Forest now in a relegation zone at one point below Luton, especially after that result on Saturday. Do keep your comments come in on YouTube and Facebook. Dennis says, We have to treat every one of these last nine games as a Cup final now. No matter who the opposition is, we'd be sooner playing mid-table teams at this stage. Burnley, Everton, Sheffield United away will be far from easy. Andy says, Four points. We will be staying up. Come on, you read. I like the positivity, Andy. Thomas gets in contact and says, Couldn't believe how the How many points deducted we got. This one, We cannot be reasonable about this relief, and it's about right. It could have been worse. It's not helpful. We need to be angry. The players need to be angry. We need to channel this into points, which is a very good point about channeling that siege mentality around the club. Callum, when you look at the ownership, when you look at Marenackus, and he is a controversial figure, a passionate figure, shall we say, and they We do know the rules, and Forest have broke them. Yes, there's arguments about mitigation.

Yes, there's arguments that City get away with it, and many other clubs continue to do so. But Forest have broken the rules, and we ultimately find ourselves in this position because of almost this scatter gun recruitment, don't we? And also bring in a crazy number of signings. You look at the likes of Omar Richards, that Forest signed for quite a big amount. He broke his leg, they missed it in the medical, and now he's at Olympiarch. That's just one example, isn't it?

Yeah. I think it's frustrating because we had to sign a lot of players. And I've said before, and I always come back to it, is for So for Everman Murillo, there's a John Joe Shelby. And that's the frustrating part because I don't blame us for having to sign so many players. Again, going back to Kieran Maguire, he put on before that, I think it was the squad cost. By the end of '22, for all the Premier League clubs, we were bought by a large amount, and that includes Bournemouth and Fulham who came up with us. And they had their parachutes and they bought a lot of players and spent a lot of money in the Championship. They came down Premier League squad. So I get that. It's just that, like I say, for every Muleo, there's a John Joe Shelbyvi. And if we could have nipped out a lot of those, like Hwang, Josh Bowler, some players haven't even played a minute. A lot of that's frustrating. The Brennan Johnson Athletic offered quite a bit of money, which came out today as well. There's a lot of frustration around what we've been doing. And we have broke the rules.

The rules are unfair. I don't agree with the rules, but they have been broken. And ultimately, that's led us to where we are today. So it has to be managed better. We have to learn from it as well. If we stay up and if we're here next season, we have to learn from it massively because it could have been worse than what it was today. There could have been an embargo and maybe less points. And then you've only got the squad that we've got at the moment, which is struggling as it is. We are quite lucky that it's four points, I think, in my opinion. I would love it to be less. I would like us to appeal and take it down. I don't think the rules are fair, but like you said, they know the rules, and we broke them. Brennan Johnson could have been sold sooner. I know he didn't want to Brentford, but I'm sure he wouldn't have minded Athletico. I'm not too sure. But yeah, it's frustrating. And even then, we're talking about Murillo to Shelby. We sold Brennan Johnson and we bought in Sangare, and that just doesn't... That was something that I thought at the time.

I thought, okay, if we're going to sell Brennan Johnson, I'm really... Again, I'm really impressed that we sold him and bought Alangaran for... What was it? I don't even know. He was so cheap compared to Brennan Johnson, and his output this season.

Five million.

It's ridiculous. That's a good sign. But we brought in the... To put Sangari over the line was to sell Brennan Johnson. And yeah, it is frustrating. There's a lot of frustration this season. It's very different to last season. I thought that if we'd have got it over the line last season and stayed up, we'd be really careful in the summer and make smart moves and not be sat there. There are people at the start of the season saying that we won't go down. Factually, there were reporters saying that. And I don't know how we're in this position again. And the points deduction doesn't help. And that being over our heads hasn't helped. And I think that being warned with a points deduction at the point when you know we just got those wins over Man United and Newcastle, I think that's left a dark cloud over the club for a few months. And I'm hoping... I've been saying recently that I think Everton got their points deduction and fought straight away. They knew what it was. They fought straight away. They won loads on the bounce, whereas we've had to just sit there and guess.

And it's been a bad time, really, recently. And I just hope that it turns on its head now and the international breaks at a good time and we can come back and just try and make every game, like I said, like a Cup final.

Yeah, fingers crossed. I've just realized that Alanga was actually 50 million and Callum Woodson had only five million. So we got that wrong. Thanks for everyone getting in contact on the comments for that. It's been a long day talking about too many numbers with points deductions and things. This comment coming in from Rich, Can only hope both the fans and players use this as fire in the belly for the rest of the season. We are much better than the results keep getting. Maybe this will be the kickstart to getting those results we are more than capable of. John says, Only one point and we have a much better squad. There is a little bit of positivity. I think Forest as a club and the ownership are disappointed in terms of this point destruction. Many reports coming out and bits and pieces that's been said. It seems like the ownership not happy, and they most likely will appeal. Seven days to appeal, Forest could get more points on top of that, but it's very unlikely. But it just drags it out because this could still go on until after the season finishes. So it's so confusing and it is unfair, Callum.

So completely echo your thoughts about how unfair these rules are, especially given that they're going to change in the summer. Mark, do you feel like if Forest appeal, it will go on longer and longer? Would you be saying if you were at the football club now, Come on, Forest, let's accept it. We've broken the rules. We almost pull our socks up and we go again starting against Palace, a crucial game after the international break.

Yeah, no, 100 %. That's what I'd be doing. And I appreciate this is going to split the fans. Some folks are going to agree with me and some are going to be more inclined to with Callum, and I understand the tease that comes with an appeal, the potential to reduce that penalty. But in reality, how much would it be reduced by? Maybe a point. I just can't see it being reduced much more than that. And it just It's still cheerish to be pursuing that when we drop four points against Luton. It's like we know where our focus needs to be. I agree with John. John's comment. We have a great squad, probably the strongest, certainly in the bottom five. But as I mentioned, In the previous show, Max, I don't think we have a good team, and there's work that needs to be done there. And so as a club, I'd be spending the next two weeks focusing on that as opposed to worrying too much about the appeal. We can go around and around and around about these numbers. We missed them up by 34.5 million quid. If we'd sold Brennan to Brentford, we'd have covered that.

To Callum's point, Athletic came in. It's 50 million euros, about 42 million pounds. That would have covered the basis as well. For some reason, Forrest went back and asked for 65 million euros, which seems a little greedy, although ultimately we got pretty much that at the top of them. But again, you go back and forth and around and around, and ultimately it comes down to one single salient point, which is even though there's no transparency in regards to how you get penalized, there is at least transparency, and all the clubs know what breaking the rules looks like. We know where that dotted line is, and Forrest crossed it, and that's it. So accept your punishment, be grateful for it, because I think it is a lot less than most of us anticipated. And now let's focus on nine Cup finals. Yeah, exactly. Well, let's focus on eight Cup finals, Man City.

Do you know what, though? It would be the most Forest thing to do, wouldn't it? To go to Man City.

I'll say any three points I can say.

To lose to Sheffield United. Absolutely. You're winning against Man City. Yeah.

That's spot on. Mick says, I blame Harry Arta. I think a lot of Forrest fans do. Good call. This one from Christian, Four Points is the best case scenario, let's just accept it and move on. The Premier League is completely inept. This comment from James cracking me up, Max, have you moved from that spot? I feel sorry for you. Good work on Five Live. No, I've been here. I've just stayed station.

Well, wait a second, Max. Are you working with Five Live? How did I not hear about this?

It was too busy on Twitter. Sorry, you should have seen it on Twitter, Mark. Yes, I have moved from the same spot for a trip to 5 Live and back, which Kieran Maguire was on with me, actually, and he explained it brilliantly. I mean, it's so confusing to get your head around. It's such a complex situation. And I genuinely don't wish any other club to go through PSR and through breaking the rules because it's gone on so long. Callum, just when you think about the scatter gun recruitment and those 30 signings that we touched on a bit ago as well, who is to blame here? Who is to blame for Forest ultimately breaking the rules? Or do you think we've been unlucky in the sense of if Brennan was sold a bit earlier, if we hadn't bought that player, we've been a bit unlucky at times? Or do you think this is down to a poor lack of off the field, shall we say, issues such as ownership and things like that?

I mean, yeah, ultimately, a lot just does fall on the owner. And Frentos being involved, again, just quietly is just unsettling, isn't it? I think I still just feel a little bit like we've been playing catch-up since we were promoted. I remember being sat there at Wembley and looking down and just thinking, they've got two plans today. They'll have a plan for recruitment in the summer. One's for the Premier League, one's for the Champions relationship, and it's a really difficult place to be in, especially with our squad. It's difficult. It's recruitment, isn't it? You look at Luton, and I know that they They're not doing amazingly. People think they're doing amazingly because they're in these games, which is with the squad that they've got, they've been able to do it on a shoestring budget. They've bought in some really clever signings. Our Jesse Lingard was there, Ross Barkley, and look what he's done this season. So our recruitment is just either up or down. It's like I said before, it is or it isn't, and more times than not, it isn't. And I don't know. I think it's I think it does. It falls on...

A lot falls on the owner, but a lot falls on recruitment and just, I don't know, the owner's son being involved in transfers and bits like that. There's all sorts you could dive into, but I do still feel just a little bit sorry for them with how it was as soon as we got promoted. It was difficult at the end at Wembley, looking down at these players and thinking, I hope that we sign the loan players. If we don't, then six of this start in 11 are going to be there in the Premier League And then Bree Samba goes, and then Lewis Graban denies a contract. And it's all of a sudden a couple of players from that player finally here. And now let's try and build a squad. Let's try and buy our talisman who is Gibbs-White. Let's try and get that blockbuster midfielder. We never really did. We did it this season. He hasn't come good yet. It's just that, look, Rémy Freuler looks to be doing really well in the Italian League. It's just you can't really put it together. It's difficult. It's unprecedented. Not many teams did what we did. In fact, there isn't any team that did what we did.

Qpr came quite close and went back down. So there's props for staying up last season. There's a lot of negativity around this season. If we end up staying up again this season with a point deduction and with some of the players that we've bought, it's actually quite miraculous when you think about it. But then also this season, it's not that miraculous. You just think that these players should be doing a lot better than they are.

Yeah, that's a very good point.

Max, let me just jump in there very quickly and say we're talking about one club here, and we know Forrest's shortcomings and the scatter gun approach to recruitment. There didn't seem to be a lot of joined up thinking, as Callum has already pointed out, at least a third of the players that were brought in. That being said, this isn't a club issue. This is a system issue, which is why this is being addressed in the summer, because what we have right now, it just isn't fit for purpose. It's a system that basically is a pull the ladder up system. Anyone who came after the rules is basically stuffed, particularly if you're getting promoted from the Championship. It's just incredibly difficult to get a foothold. And look at Newcastle as well. Again, looking system-wide and not just at one club, Newcastle is swimming in cash right now. I'm not suggesting they should be able to go out and buy whoever they want, but they can't even close the ground on the top four despite having as deeper pockets as they currently do. Why? Because the systems don't allow for it. And it just seems something inherently wrong with that.

I'm obviously more interested in the other end of the table where we're currently, we can't really reside, but it does feel like it's the haves and the have nots. And there's the Premier League for you in a nutshell.

Yeah, no, I totally agree. Fans talk about, well, fans' chants, actually, don't they, Mark? Forrester Magic on and off the pitch, not on the pitch at the moment, and probably neither off it. And do you blame the recruitment? Do you blame Marinoacus? Do you blame almost that Forest haven't been a Premier League club off the pitch? There's lots of stories that have come out, and I always feel that when Steve Cooper was in charge, he almost protected the ownership from probably getting quite a bit of criticism.

Yeah.

Here you are. Look, it's me with a difficult question again. I wonder, this is the last time I come on the podcast. You're off after this. I don't blame you.

No, I think you're right. I think you're right about that. Some news came out. I'm not even if it was news. It's a rumor, and it's come from more than one place, and it's come from good sources. So this suggests some truth in it that our set piece coach hasn't actually been involved very much, if at all, since Nuno came on board. And again, another instance of what's going on behind closed doors. And when you ask the question, Max, do I blame the club? Do I blame the owners? Do we blame the manager? I don't know where to point the finger, quite frankly. But I I don't know that it's helpful to do that at this point in time, because, again, we have nine Cup Finals coming up, eight plus Man City, and that needs to be our focus as a club right now. I'm more concerned about recognizing we have a really good squad. How do we turn that into a really good team? A team that turns out the performances that we saw against Newcastle, early doors under Nuno's reign.

Kieran says on comment, this is the result of kicking the down the road from a few seasons ago, not getting enough signings done permanently, too many loans and then expensive signings. It is a good point that, Callum. And when Forrest got promoted, why didn't we go out and get... I know it was difficult. James Garner wasn't the sale. Keenan Davis, they were worried about his injuries and things like that. But it was a shame that Forrest hadn't secured those players that got them promoted on a permanent level. And also when you look at where we are now in a situation, you You need players that, I keep alluding to it, but you need players that know what it means to the club to get promoted in the first place. And Forest really haven't, bar one or two at the moment in the start, 11, haven't got that, have they?

No, it doesn't. Yeah, It doesn't feel like there's much soul in the squad, in the lineup. It's like you said as well, even one of the small advantages that I feel like we did have was no matter how no matter the performances of Joe Warrell and Brennan Johnson at times, we had a nice little base there with Warrell Yates and Johnson, who were players that came from the academy, know the club inside and out, love the club, support the club, and were able last season to pick up the players that didn't know what it meant to be a part of Nightman Forest, didn't know what it felt like to be out of the Premier League for 23 years. But then even the players that didn't understand that, we had Serge Aurier, who had the Armband at times and had played in the Premier League. It just feels the season looking through. It's just disjointed. And we've swapped centrebacks every week, and we've got injuries all over the place. It doesn't feel like we've got too many leaders. It doesn't feel like... It just doesn't feel like, I don't know. You look at the strongest lineup at times and you think, yeah, that will do well.

And then you watch it and everything just seems disjointed. And the set piece thing is just... It's It makes me sick. Every time we can see the set piece, the rage that fills... I'm just sick of talking about it as well and sick of watching it. I have an ongoing joke with people whenever I'm watching the game or going out of the game and I say, look, if we score from this set piece, I'm going to get rid of something valuable within my home. I'm going to get rid of the TV. And it's just an ongoing joke. I don't know why it is, but it's just to me to prove that nothing's going to happen from the set piece whenever we get one. But then as soon as the other team gets set piece, I sit there and I'm like, yeah, this is probably going to be a goal now. And to have that alone is just, what's the point? Even if you play so well for 90 minutes and score, and it's the reason we're losing three, two so often. We were able to score, but we were conceding more than we were scoring.

And a lot of them were set pieces. And we hired a set piece coach for Steve Cooper when they knew they were sacking Steve Cooper, and then Steve Cooper's gone, and then Nuno hasn't used the set piece coach, and we still don't know how to defend or take set pieces. And the set piece coach isn't being allowed to be involved, even though he was never a set piece coach before. He's worked with the England youth. That is mental to me. That alone, that sentence, just blows my mind. It's frustrating. It's infuriating. You're watching clubs try and do things from set pieces. You've got Aston Villa set piece coaches, practically Emory's assistant manager. And you've got Newcastle's goal against us from the set piece. They looked for a weakness within us. And Man City's corner against Liverpool, the set piece coach had recognized that Liverpool were putting most of their defenders in one area and stuck at John Stones on the near post whilst Ake was blocking off McAllister. And that's where he's earned his money. They were talking about it in commentary. He sat there and he's probably earned a bonus from that because he's picked something out and potentially that could win Man City the title.

I know it's the opposite end of the table, but that's something that we need. We need that advantage. If it's not scoring set pieces, defend them. Or I can't get too deep into every game and every call next.

It sounds like we need to get tricky tease on here and get them to produce a forest score from a set piece, Callum jumps in the trend. We should do that.

In fact, I'm just going to read a comment out now from Gordon who says, your valuables are safe for years, Callum. Every time. You'll be all right, Callum. You'll be safe.

Don't need to check the watch. Don't need to throw the TV out the window. The microwave is all right. I'm fine. I've got a full flat. I don't need to worry about anything because Because we don't do anything from set pieces. It's mind boggling.

It is. It is frustrating. Totally agree. Dennis getting in contact again with another good point. We are paying a set piece, Coach. We should be using him no matter who appointed him as nothing we do on the pitch at the moment is working. This interesting one from Mark, Losing Sammer was the biggest loss. He was the best keeper. Then we didn't buy Henderson. Keepers have been a nightmare, and I guess it costs Forest a lot, which adds to the PSR, which is why we find ourselves in this mess. Mark, It's funny that is, isn't it? Modern football, a set piece coach. What does a set... I'm not criticizing the role, but I'm questioning what difference does a set piece coach... Why can't somebody on new nose backroom team or whoever just analyze for it. If you pulled up five corners, for example, that Forest have conceded from this season, probably more, and actually just looked at them, and surely you could find a similar pattern. It isn't that difficult, surely, is it, to stop the set pieces? It's 19 goals conceded from set pieces. It's shocking. Absolutely awful.

Yeah, it is. And I think you make a great point there, Max. In fact, I was listening to a podcast just this past week from your new employers, where Kevin Nolan was talking about how he oversees set pieces at West Ham. And they've done really well with them this year, particularly in Europe, where obviously, tape's being watched by their opposition counterparts. But But they're not as well known in continental Europe as they are in the Premier League. And so some of the work that Nolan has done is really pay dividends in that competition. I don't know. Callum summarized it perfectly. It boggles the mind. I don't understand it. It's incredibly frustrating. The other thing I would say in regards to justifying having somebody looking at set pieces and either having somebody dedicated to that or having that being a big part of their remit is that set And the pieces have become more sophisticated. It used to be the whole chuck it in the mixer. And if you had a player like David Beckham, who could basically open up a can of beans with his right foot, then you were going to put the ball where it needed to be, and you're going to increase the chances that it was going to end up in the back of the net or create a dangerous situation, just as West Ham have actually with James Wall-Prowse.

We, unfortunately, don't have either. Apparently, we don't have the sophistication to come up with or to counteract set pieces. And in terms of delivery, Well, didn't we cover that in the last episode?

We did. And you can watch it back after the looting game. We touched on who should be taking set pieces and just how appalling they were. Right, we'll close it up. And I want to end on this point, Callum. How are you feeling in terms of if we didn't have a points deduction now, would you be confident that Forest have stayed up? Now we have a points deduction and another nine Cup finals it is now. Do you think Forest will survive?

I have the strangest feeling that if we hadn't had a points deduction, we'd have gone down. But now that we've got a points deduction, we might stay up. And I don't know why. And I think it is literally just the fact that they've now got to fight and they know they've got to fight and that Nuno has got to do something. We've just been plodding along recently, and we're lucky that Luke And I haven't been picking up as many points. Like I said, they've been in games and they've been scoring late goals and they've been leading 3-0. And if they'd have won that game, that they were leading 3-0, then it would look a whole lot worse than it does now as well. So we are lucky because we've just been plodding along. And even the games that we've played well in recently, like Liverpool, we still haven't taken anything from it, or there's been referee issues in games. It's infuriating And I don't know. I don't know now. I don't know. I feel like with the points deduction, I feel today, now that the cloud's gone, I feel the best that I've felt in a while about it, about football and Forest.

And it's strange. I don't know if I'm just saying it or feeling it because of the stress that it's caused recently. But I felt like we were sleepwalking into relegation and all it took was a loot and win or last game of the season and all that stuff. Now I feel like we have to win and we have to do something about it. I feel like there might be some fight. I just don't know. I don't know. It's like Mark said, it's difficult looking at those fixtures. You look at those fixtures and it's just like you sat there and you go, yeah, Burnley away, Sheffield United, we should be winning that. And Crystal Palace at home. Tottenham looks dodgy the other day, Fulham at home, Everton away, all those fixtures. And you're looking at them thinking, yeah, this could happen. But all of the fixtures that we've played recently, you're thinking, yeah, we could get something from And we haven't. And Brighton was the one. After Brighton, for me. I was just like, I can't see any way out of this now. We should have done something. They're battered with injuries. They've just played in Europe and got destroyed.

And we've gone there and took our wingers off and just rolled over and been poor. And then the referees also stuck his finger up to us and denied as a red card, which seems to be the trend. We're playing bad and the referee does us or we're playing well and the referee does us. But I I don't want to say that we can't stay up, but I feel a little bit better today, strangely, from having the points deduction, because I was pretty certain after Brighton that we would go down.

Yeah, I think it's a relief, isn't it? It's just like breathe that it's finally happened in a way. Mark, put you on the spot on Saturday evening. Going to do it again. Do you still think that Forrest are going to go down? I'm going with your answer that you gave us on Saturday.

Well, I'm not alone. He may have You may have seen that I put a poll on Twitter. Subsequently, we've had almost 200 votes at this point, and 40% of people are saying they feel like Forrest aren't going to survive. And this was before points deduction announcement today.

I'm with you on that, by the way. I'm with you just to.

So you look at the remaining games, Palace at home, Fulham at home, Tottenham away, Wolves at home, Everton away, City at home, Sheffield United away, Chelsea at home, and Burnley, the final game of the season, away. We're on 21 points. We need to amass at least 15 in the remaining nine games, I think, to give us a fighting chance of staying up, which means, realistically, we have to win at least three games at home. I'm struggling to see that. I think we could beat Palace this This is our first game of this nine-game stretch. I think we're going to be bolstered a little bit, weirdly, psychologically by the points deduction. And I could see us winning that game. And I could see us winning the full-on game as well. They're very hot and cold, and they're not particularly good on the road. So the six points. I'm really struggling to see where another three points at home comes. We have Wolves, who have been one of the informed teams to see us. We have City, we've already talked about. And then we have Chelsea. Chelsea could be it, the penultimate game of the season. That could be depending on where they're at, and also if they made their way to the FA Cup final and therefore were distracted.

Chelsea could be it, potentially. But I think it's absolutely imperative we secure at least nine points at home. Excuse me. Yeah, nine points out of our home games. And then we got to try and pick up six points somewhere else. And it's not going to be easy, but with games away at Burley and Sheffield United, You see daylight, right? You see the opportunity. But again, I don't want to keep me in a broken record. It comes back to, can Nuno pull this good squad of seemingly talented players together and get a tune out of them consistently? And that's what it's going to take now.

I agree. Spot on. That's what it is going to take. Indeed, right. That does us nicely, I think. I'm sick and tired of talking about Forest today. I'm off for another lie down, honestly. Callum, Mark, thank you as ever. Really appreciate your time, both. Thanks as well for tuning in. Lots of comments and people watching on YouTube and Facebook, listening back on Spotify and Apple podcast. Do leave us a review if you do enjoy, as it really helps the podcast. Have a great rest of your week, Forest. It The Premier League hit Forest with it, but they don't really care about Man City's charges, though. Of course, I'm off for a lie down, and you never know, Forest might just stay up. Bye-bye.