Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Garibaldi Red podcast. After weeks of speculation, the Reds finally found out today that their appeal against the original breach of profit and sustainability rules was unsuccessful. It means that Forest will receive no points back with the fort deducted being the final outcome. It also means that Forest remain where they are, three points clear of the relegation zone just outside and above Luton. And it means it all goes down to on the pitch for the remaining two games against Chelsea and Burnley for the Reds to survive in the Premier League. Joining me to discuss this on a... It's quite a nice day, actually, on a Monday evening. The sun's shining through. I can see him there. It's Max Scott Talks Talksport broadcaster. Max, you've been busy today for Talksport doing all of this, so I appreciate you joining us. How are you, first of all, mate? Did you have a good birthday?

I did, yeah. I had a really good birthday. We were just talking, weren't we, Max, about my video that went up on last the last pod. And you didn't edit out my sister's cheeky boyfriend calling me a professional banker. But anyway, you know I had a really good weekend, jam-packed Friday, Saturday, Sunday, feeling a little bit worse for wear because now I'm in my 30s. Hangovers last a lot longer, mate. But yeah, now I'm doing well. Are you?

Yes. Good mate. Good. Yeah. See, hangovers aren't too bad with me because I'm young. I'm like a spring chicken. Right. Let's talk about points deduction. And again, it's gone on for so long, this. Nuno, a spirit of Santo forest head coach, called a few weeks ago and even just recently about the transparency and how it needed to be sorted, finally is after the bank holiday yesterday, zero points back to the appeal. What do you make of the appeal, Max? Because you followed it quite closely today. Can you give us your general thoughts and take on it, and then we'll go from there.

Yeah, I read it. It's very wordy report, and I've read through I think my overwhelming... A little bit mixed emotions, I think, Max, because it was my understanding that I think there were some people at the club that were confident that they might get one or two points back. I think that was quite widely known as well, just from fans. I certainly hoped for having seen what happened with Everton as well. So there's a slight tinge of disappointment just as a fan, that we're not able to get those points back. But equally, it's really clear from the report that Forrest broke the rules, right? And I don't necessarily think this podcast today should be about those rules. I think that it's worth mentioning that the rules as they currently stand, they're widely regarded by fundits, by professionals, by managers, by owners, by fans as being out of date, and that's why they're changing. I think that adds a little bit to the frustration that we're on the receiving end of that, so it's same as Everton. But it's really clear from the report that Forrest broke the rules, right? Despite his incredible incredible investment in the club, Evangelos Maranakis has gone too far.

And the sale of Brennan Johnson, he sanctioned two months too late. And ultimately, I think that was our big mitigation that we argued that it wasn't Almost it wasn't a near miss. That was what we were arguing, and the report has suggested otherwise. And so look, we are where we are, and I'm just quite glad it's over. Obviously, we'd all be happier if we'd have been given points back. But it's nice that we can finish this on the pitch, that we can rely on our own form and our own players, our own fans, our own manager, rather than on politics. And so bring on Chelsea, I say.

Yeah, bring on Chelsea. Two games left for the Reds. I imagine the atmosphere on Saturday is going to be electric. And remember that Forest could be safe by then. Luton travel to West Ham. And is that right? Yeah, Luton at West Ham and Burnley play Spurs. So all to play for on Saturday. As you mentioned there, Forest arguing the mitigation and around Brennan Johnson. Just to break it down, Forrest basically appealed the four points deduction. It then goes to an independent panel. The Forest Trust, actually, very interesting enough, we did a podcast with him, and they've got a great expert, Robert Machowitsky, who basically is a financial expert. He actually contributed evidence to the appeal because he's from outside. He's not related to Forrest directly, almost indirectly with being a member and board member of the Trust. He was able to submit findings into the original report. We'll hope to do something with him to get his thoughts on it, whether he's allowed to speak about the appeal, though, I'm not too sure. But Forrest had argued that the original commission did not take into account the sale of Brennan Johnson on deadline day last summer.

That's two months after the end of the relevant financial year as a mitigating factor, as you said, Max. The club also felt that not suspending summer or all of the points deduction was a further error. Forrest alleged errors were made in the statements for the original decision. One of those concerns was obviously holding out for a higher fee of Johnson. I won't go into it for too much. It's all online for people to see, but it's interesting because Yannis Frentress was involved quite heavily with all of it as well, who was the former CEO of Forrest. I saw your tweet actually earlier, Max, and you bit on, which I recommend anyone to go and view. Great job. And you talked about the strongly worded conclusion from the CEO and how they weren't happy with Forrest almost examining these, should we say, language used. Can you talk to us about that and your stance on that? Because it's a really interesting one, isn't it? What's the point of appealing?

I was really shocked. I think if the independent appeal have made their conclusion that Forrest shouldn't get any points back or a reduction of points taken from them, then fair enough. They're an independent body and they're not full of looting fans. They're completely independent. Despite many of the challenges that this country faces, we have an independent justice system. However, their conclusion was really strongly worded and they seem to be frustrated with Forrest examining the minute detail of the language used in the Commission's initial four-point deduction and the findings from that. I just felt that it was quite maybe unnecessary and the cheek to almost suggest that it was... Well, the whole point is that's what lawyers do. If you are challenging a major decision that could potentially be the difference between relegation and survival, then of course you're going to look at the minute detail because that's how the legal system works. I was really shocked that they're signed off by a KC, the highest legal position you can get in this country, or almost the highest. I found it incredibly shocking that it was signed off by a KC with that wording, right in conclusion.

That's how democracy works. That's how the legal system works. You have a right to challenge based on the language used. And so Forrest were well within their right to challenge and appeal, and they did. They were unsuccessful. But just the conclusion was, it was almost like a bit of a kick in the teeth for Forrest, who obviously didn't get what they want. So, yeah, I mean, for anyone listening, if you don't want to read the whole report, just scroll right to the bottom. There's about six bullet points, and you can read it there and make your own mind up.

Yeah, spot on there. It's so confusing to get your head around. And when we talk about football, just in the modern world at the minute, and just the modern day, and how someone's league position is determined from points and being taken off the pitch. It's just very frustrating, I think, for not just Forest, but for Everton as well. You can understand everyone's stance on it, really. We are live on YouTube and Facebook. This comment from Michael, Good outcome, to be honest, means relegation not decided by some faceless bean counters, and it's all on our hands. I didn't read that last bit. That's not a bad point in the fair. I suppose you should focus on the pitch, which is what Forrest will have to do. Before we look ahead to the wider picture of relegation and we move on from this, because there isn't really much to say other than Forrest have appealed and they've got no points back. I think we'd be sat talking about something slightly different if there were points back because it would have ultimately relegated Burnley and put Luton in a very interesting position going into Saturday. But when you look at these rules made.

And yes, you can understand that they're in place, Max. Many clubs disagree. You've got City with 115 charges and still not found. You can understand the frustration, surely, from not just the owners, but the fans. And also the players, Anuno touched on it brilliantly in a press conference he did where he said, We don't know our league position. We don't know what we're fighting for. Not saying that if we had three points back, we'd be on the beach now, but almost saying, We don't know what the plan is going into every game, almost, because you plan to win games based on getting points and moving up the league. And it's taken that long. And it is frustrating that the decision came today. Why not last week if we were going to get zero points back? They would argue maybe it would give It would affect the football in weekend, the previous weekend we've just had where Forest went to Sheffield United, Luton obviously lost, drew against Everton. And it is frustrating. If we're going to get zero points back, then you might as well have just told us last week and not waited till after a bank holiday weekend when And Forrest have had a win.

I think people at the club would rightly be frustrated. They should have heard back in the middle of last week, and they didn't. And I think that it only serves the argument that many fans have that the Premier League are completely incompetent and that the way that they've dealt this entire situation isn't good enough for the best football league in the world. So I think Forrest have a right to be frustrated about the timing if they were told that it was meant to be last week. When it comes to the rules, Max, I just find it... I think that the club, the punishment should have been that you can't buy anyone. Put a transfer embargo on the club, put a transfer ban on the club. It's happened to Chelsea in the past. I just think that it seems There's a real sense of injustice, particularly, of course, as you mentioned, when there is another high-profile football club with 115 charges against them. I don't know the ins and outs of that case, but it seems to me that if I get charged for kicking a cat, and that charge happens within three months, but you have kicked 115 cats, and because it's so many cats, that's going to happen in three years time.

I don't think that that should be anyway, in an ideal world, how the wheels of justice turn. I do think that the frustration from Everton and Forest fans, many of it is really justified when we live in that landscape and the punishment seems to not necessarily fit the crime or the punishment seems to punish fans. Look, if we haven't had Four Points deducted, we'd be safe right now, wouldn't we? Yeah. Two times ago. And look, Forrest broke the rules. Forrest knew what the rules were, and so ultimately they are accountable. But I do think that now that all of this is over for Forrest and Everton, there needs to be a continuation of a really robust argument about the rules, and particularly about how this new spending cap is, and whether or not it's only going to serve to make the Premier League even more of a closed shop. That's what I'm really worried about. Look, I want us to stay up. I have a feeling that we might well do that because of the energy at the club at the minute and how amazing it's going to be at the City Ground on Friday.

But I'm worried about next season. I'm worried about the next five years because the Premier League, I think, is becoming less and less competitive competitive. Whilst Arsenal have accumulated an incredible amount of points in a challenging Man City, they've done it without spending anywhere near as much as them. And I think that's real credit to Arteta, to the owners for the patience that they've shown. And so, yes, it's a great title race, but I do think largely the Premier League is becoming far less competitive, and I think that that will ultimately affect the products moving forward. So they've got to work out a set of rules that doesn't punish, as Richard Masters would call us, smaller football clubs. And I really am worried about the future of football in that regard.

Yeah, spot on. Well said, Max. Richard Masters, we won't go into too much detail of what we think about him. When you look at Forest recently and how they've responded in terms of refereing incidents and in terms of statements and everything like that, they've been silent. They've not released a statement. They may well do so, but I imagine that they're probably not going to say anything. I think that's that now. Forest, then this whole PSR and the panel. It's put to bed. You can't appeal again. It's done. It is what it is. Is it nice to see Forrest being quiet for once, in a way, Max?

Yeah, I really do think that. Look, the whole tweet that got viewed 45 million times at the end of the Everton game. A colleague at work said this to me because I didn't really like it. I understood some of the sentiment behind it and the frustration behind it. I don't necessarily think it was delivered in the best way. But my colleague, Luke, said to me, What's worse, though, Max, the tweet or the refereeing decisions. And for me, it's the refereine decisions. And so I'm at a point now where I'm willing to look back at that and think, bloody hell, that was a grenade thrown in and it was actually quite entertaining, regardless of the fact that I didn't think it was particularly tasteful or befitting of the club. But in terms of this, I'm delighted that we haven't responded. Now, I don't know how much of that is to do with the fact that there is an investigation currently ongoing from the Premier League and the FA into that original suite from Everton. But regardless, I think that it's great. Look, the focus should be, let's use this pent-up energy, whether it's because you are frustrated at the owners, but leading us into this position, or whether it's you think that the Premier League is completely corrupt and are out to get for it.

Wherever you are on that spectrum, let's take that energy into Saturday. 5:30 kick-off, live on Sky Sports by the banks of the River Trent. It's going It would be absolutely mental. And I cannot wait. And just think that... Look, Chelsea are in some really good form. I think Pochettino deserves a lot of credit for what he's achieved under Todd Boley and the mess that Todd Boley has given him. And so fair play that Nony Madouake is in great form. Cole Palmer is in fantastic form. What a player. But I just think that Andy Jacob said to me on Talksport today, because he's a Chelsea fan, and I was banging on about the atmosphere, and he said, Well, the atmosphere doesn't score goals. Actually, well, of course it doesn't, but atmosphere's changed games. And maybe Chelsea haven't got the atmosphere of the well famous city ground, but they're certainly going to feel it. And I just sincerely hope that the players are able in the first 10 minutes to respond to that and give the fans more and more energy, that Chelsea aren't able to shut us down. Look, they're really an experienced team match, Chelsea.

They've got some young lads that won't have necessarily played in that old traditional ground, tight in with fans and just with all of this energy. And so I just think wherever we are on the spectrum, it's done now, it's passed. I hope that the club learned from the mistakes that they have made, but let's go into Saturday, all guns blazing, can't wait.

Yeah, it's going to be a big one. And Forest might be safe by then. But if not, a win, possibly a point, depending on the results on Saturday, might just do it. It's almost parallel, isn't it, Max, to when you had last year the half past five kick off against Arsenal. They were title, no Chelsea aren't, but it felt like everything was against Forest, we pulled off that magnificent result, stayed in the Premier League, the city were champions that day, and then we went to the final game of the season away at Palace and really did have a party. Hopefully, it will be like that and it won't go down to the last game. But I think the club are in a good position at the minute. I think the club on the pitch are in a good position, shall I say, in terms of the relegation battle, because if it does go down to the last game of the season, I was saying to my dad earlier, actually, we'll be in the best position when you're thinking about it, because even a point against Chelsea, we will be all right. And especially given Forest's goal difference, you'd hope that that will take them.

It will be taken into consideration in a way, given the result on Saturday. Let's just sum up, actually, Max, the Sheffield United game, because even though we've talked about it a lot, I don't think you can get bored of talking about it and key performances. Me and you have talked about for ages, Ryan Yates, Mr. Forrest, and players like him will ultimately play be a huge part on Saturday, and if it does go down to that last game against Burnley, and you just hope that he'll be on form alongside Callum Hudson and Adoy on Saturday.

I think, like I mentioned, against quite a young Chelsea side. Ryan Yates said that they don't want to play against Ryan Yates. I think it'd be a great battle between him and Conor Gallagher because Conor Gallagher has got some beans, hasn't he? He doesn't mind a bit needle. I'm done trying to convince people that don't rate Ryan Yates to rate Ryan Yates. But in terms of that goal, one, that goal was Ryan Yates' personified, wasn't it? Just an absolute thunderbaster. I'm just delighted that he scored that goal. I think he's just a wonderful representative of this great club. I always say it, but I don't get tired of it. If I was good enough, I would play like Ryan Yates. If I had the talent, I would I would like to think that... I just think the way he carries himself, the way he models himself, I think is brilliant. And what a player. I can't articulate, for me, how important he is to me as a fan. So it was great. But he also played brilliantly. And so I won't be surprised if he scored a goal on Saturday. But also the story about Callum Hudson-O'Doy finding his feet at Forest.

His career could well have been over, but he's found a place to call home and he just cutting in on his right bow and swinging him in. So that's the trick. And lots of defenders don't know how to deal with it. And I just think the fact that he's coming up against his former club, Chelsea, there's a really, I think, captivating footballing story in that. We talk about it with Dave. Dave and I talk about this a lot, just the stories in football and the narratives. And I just think that all of the noise around Forest this season, all the things that have against us and all of the things, the negative things that have happened at the club, I feel that there could be a real beautiful culmination on Saturday. And of course, football is a brutal game, and it wouldn't necessarily shock me if Chelsea came and beat us do 3-nil because they've got a ridiculously expensive and quality squad. But I just look at their experience. I look at Forest with their tails up after a win against Sheffield United, and I'm really confident. Sorry, I keep going on to that Chelsea game.

No, I like it. Shefield United was a real banana skin, Max, wasn't it? There is a real rivalry there that's gone on for a long, long time. And I felt that it was a real banana skin. And we dealt with going behind incredibly well. I thought they were incredibly composed. Danilo has slowly rebuilt his form in a forest shirt. Morgan Gibbs-White was fantastic. Yates was brilliant. And it was great to see Taewoe back as well. He scored the winner at Stamford Bridge earlier in the season. It'd be great for him to come and to our survival charge like he did last season. So, yeah, lots of things going. Who was your man of the match on the weekend?

Murillo. Murillo, definitely Murillo. I think given the first off as well, he kept foresting it, just those clearances again and just right place, right time, gets back. He almost smiles as well when he does it. He knows. I'm not saying that he becomes complacent from this, but he smiles knowing that... I wouldn't say he's got the worst players around him, but smiles knowing that he's probably the best player for Forest at the minute alongside Gibbs-White. I think he carries the squad at times, and I just think he's becoming a real leader. To say what? He's younger than you, Max?

He's 10 years younger than me. I'm He won.

He's depressing, but you're right, he revels in his supremacy.

And what a fantastic player. I think that I almost can't imagine a world where he plays for us next season. Because we need to balance the books. I'm not saying that we can't have success without him, but maybe he's just one of those that comes in and it's this fleeting romance and he has to move on. So the past year's new. I said very early on, Madrid or Barca got it written all over him because he's an absolute stunning player. And I just hope that, and I'm sure they will because he's on a big old contract, well, as in a long contract, that they will rinse every million out of any club that comes call him. Obviously, Obviously, I'd love to see him and Gibbs White, but again, I just struggled to see a forest with those two fantastic players in there, but both of them have been instrumental. If we do stay up, those two players will be instrumental. Let's hope that they can drag us over the line.

Yeah, fingers crossed. Before we go, actually, Max, wanted to touch on... It's interesting, a lot of speculation on social media, specifically Twitter. Shock. Yesterday, the mail came out with a few reports that Nuno's position will be reviewed at the end of the season, as every manager's position is most likely reviewed. If Forrest were to make... Do you think Forrest should make a change if we stay up? Have you been convinced by Nuno enough to give him a summer, give him time, give him that stability to build next season, or would you be happy for a new manager to come in with new ideas and let's go again and start fresh, really?

I'm a bit different about it, Max, really. It's been a really tough season. You look at his stats compared to Cooper. Can I just say, the whole second Liam Resina, what a shocker. But seeing Steve Cooper linked to another club makes my heart break. It's like seeing your ex-wife dating another man. I just want to say that. Of course, he has every right to go to another club, but that just messed with my head before I came on here. Max, I believe in patience. I believe in time. I don't think Nuno is a bad manager. What he did at Wolves was fantastic. I don't see the point unless Graham Potter, who I think would be fantastic for Forest, I don't think he would come to us because I don't think that we're higher up the league enough. But unless there was a real obvious choice, then I don't see the benefit of bringing in some random journeyman to try and change things around. The players know him. I'm sure he's building relationships with the players. I've seen him talk about the players really fondly. Let's just stick with him. It's that Posh at Chelsea. You think Antonio Conte is going to come back and work with all those young players?

I just think the same with Forest. Just stick with him. Yeah, it's not been vintage, but let's be honest, two years in the Premier League haven't been vintage. We've had some amazing moments, but it's not as if we're knocking on the door amid table. So no, I don't necessarily want to see that. But equally, I wouldn't be surprised if we did because our owner has a track record of the lifespan of a manager under Evangelos Maranakis is about the same as a goldfish. And Steve Cooper was just a mere miraculous blip in that record. Look, in conclusion, I just think, yeah, keep him because I don't know if we're going to get anything better. And let's grow with Nuno, why not? And I do think that the transfer policy of the club is very similar to that of Wolves. You look at some of the talent that we're bringing in. And Nuno did wonders with the young Portuguese lads. We've got a lot of Brazilians that speak Portuguese, and so that's going to be really helpful for They're there development. So I say, stick with him. Don't twist.

Very good point. And just finally, Max, next two games, you think that Forest will stay up? Do you think we could do it on Saturday?

I've just got a feeling about Saturday. It's not Don't quote me on it. I'm not one of those YouTubers that says, We're definitely going to win, and then hope that we do, and then try and get some bloody likes or whatever on Twitter. I'm not about that. I just have a feeling. I just have a feeling because I think that the crowd is so powerful. And despite the fact that we don't have that talismanic manager in Steve Cooper, the relationship between the players and the fans is absolutely fantastic. And it's one of the last straw I've been able to cling on to this season when at times I felt really disenfranchised, maybe with things off the pitch. It's the relationship that we have with the players that has been my guiding light. And I just think that that has power on the pitch that can affect mentalities of the opposition. It can give us that extra 5 %. I would love it if we did it at home in front of the crowd, have a party in Nottingham. But to answer your question, yes, I think we will stay up. I sincerely hope we do it.

I hope Brennan Johnson for Spurs and Michal Antonio for West Ham do us a favor. How great would it be to see Brennan celebrating in front of... He's he playing Luton, is he?

No, it is Burnley. It's Burnley.

Yeah, great. It's celebrating in front of their fans because, of course, it still means so much to him. He loves this club. And I just love it if before... Imagine that if we're safe before Chelsea and we just get Waka Waka going. I do think we'll stay up, Max, yes, But it's not a foregone conclusion. And although Luton are nowhere near as good as Forest in terms of the points we've accumulated this season, we're seven points better than them. You've got to credit their togetherness, the culture at the club, the fan base in terms of how much they support their club. I know there's some beef on Twitter, but I couldn't give two tellies about that. But they could win two games. They could. They went through a period earlier in the season where they were in really good form. And so it's not over. I don't think we should be complacent, but I think we'll stay up.

Yeah, me too. I wasn't confident a few weeks ago, but being in that away end against Sheffield United made me confident. I feel like we turned a corner and hope we carry the momentum into Saturday. Let's see. Max, appreciate it. Go and enjoy your evening, mate. Don't talk about points of seductions. You'll be talking about in your sleep tonight, won't you?

I know, mate. I know. That report will just be going over in my head, all the sub clauses. Crikey, it was dull.

Yes, very dull. And hopefully, Forest won't have to hear or see any more of that in the future. We will be back. Sarah will be back for her Q&A on Facebook and on audio versions in the next few days. I'll then be back on Friday for a bit of a special preview ahead of a big game, and then we will see you, hopefully, after an emphatic Forest win. Wouldn't that be nice to survive in the Premier League? Thanks for your comments. Do give us a like, share, and subscribe on YouTube, and follow us, and leave us a review on Spotify and Apple podcast. Have a wonderful rest of your evening. Come on, you, Reds. Points deduction. Let's do it. Let's stay up on Saturday, you, Reds.