Transcribe your podcast

I don't really know how to start with you, so I'm just going to start. OK, I'm going to cry at some point. I'm sorry, in your welcome. How like when women cry, it makes me very uncomfortable with that story. I believe we evolved to cry because men are so bad at reading faces that we had to evolve. Yeah. To have they respond well to wetness, I guess. I don't know the biological basis for this.


Well, there's there's no avoiding misreading tears. You know, something's obviously wrong.


Like, I mean, I'm micromanaged, OK, that men couldn't figure out that we were upset. They can't see past. They can't see. I'm fine. They can't tell that that means I'm not fine. So we evolved to cry.


That could be ever thought of that. That's an interesting theory. This is this truly, I believe, is in many ways tantamount.


To most women's wedding day, what is this conversation with you right now?


Really, I've been dreaming about this my whole life. I've been wanting this my whole life. Um, I've been looking forward to this my whole life, planning this. I've never worked harder to look pretty. I Jackson watched me put on five different shirts for you to every one of your guests. Never.


Never. Right. So your work. Is my father. Like you raised me, your work undid all my dysfunctional programming. Really? Yeah, well, very I'm very honored. Everything I have, I believe I have because of you.


Oh. That's hard to live up to, something that's been a pleasure. Thank you, everyone, for tuning in. And we have a history. I tried, yes, to get you on my talk show when I was twenty 14, something I believe that was about twenty fourteen, I did a talk show for entertainment.


I don't even know if that's still a company. It's an app or something. And I wanted to do a talk show where I had amazing people.


I wanted to do this. It was before podcasts were back. Right. And they said Can you get Honey Boo Boo and Kim Kardashian?


And I said, I knew that was going to each. And what do you expect? I want Robert like me on the E channel. It's a bad fit.


And we emailed. We did. And I was heartbroken.


I was heartbroken, too, but you're the surgeon that melted my heart together. I make a big deal of it, but I believe you didn't write back. But that's all right.


I figured you're going through weird things, but your book is why in your work is why I got out of the relationship. That's great. And integrated and heal the wounds.


Do you have like Sergej probe? Do you have like I mean, that's what this is. Do you have other. This is a slightly odd pattern.


If you had this would happen.


I knew it would happen. Wow. My inner child was running the show at the time. Yeah. And then what your work did for me was it helped my adult help me be an adult and not have my inner child run the show.


And my character defects are the weapons and the maladaptive behaviors that I had as a child. Run the shot like I didn't need them anymore. You made me realize that that's great. So that's why I always say, like, you're my real father. Wow.


What responsibility is this a lot for you?


It is a bit it's a bit much, you know, because I'm just like. You know, I spent a long time without any success in my life, you know, up until talking. Yeah, not really.


And so I always have a part of me that feels a little bit kind of small and ground down by life and circumstances, because I took me till I was like thirty eight, thirty nine before I had any kind of success. So I don't you know, I have an ego as we all do, but there's a part of me that slight sense of an imposter or whatever you want to call imposter syndrome.


Yeah. A little bit. Um wild.


But isn't the fact that you didn't make it until then why you made it so hard when you did make it? You did didn't you need all that in order to be you? Oh, I think so.


I think you're right. It's very. It was yeah. Because again just call me was.


Well, um, yes. Because if I was given the opportunity to write the book ten years earlier, I would have been able to pull it off. I, I needed a lot of really shitty experiences in order to write the forty eight hour and have a lot of anger and bitterness in me. So it just was like a cloud that gathers. It's so black suddenly to pour out. That was me at the age of 39.


This is such an interesting moment because with you I can't get away with anything. This is what's happening with you.


It's a little bit it's a little bit difficult sometimes because people think that I'm looking through you at every moment, like I've got x ray eyes that I'm seeing into your psyche. And so that makes them very nervous and they have to be careful. So they don't you know, they are very guarded around me, you know, and I'm having the opposite.


I'm feeling I'm so like obsequious because I'm I'm surrendering to the fact that I know there's nothing I can do. I mean, I've read all these books and I know how to seduce you. But I you know, you taught me how to sew. Like, all I can do is be authentic because I can't pull anything off. I can't look, you know, so there's this relief of just going, oh, the mask is off. OK, that's good.


There's something like I feel like I'm in a flow state with you.


Yeah, well, I don't the same way. I mean, I'm very relaxed. I don't have to try to do anything because you'll see it.


Yeah, I'll see through it.


Yeah. So. You also taught me the biggest shift I've ever had in my life is understanding that body language is more important and behaviors are more important than verbal. Most definitely.


I think that is maybe the biggest problem we have as human beings. Definitely.


We're so language oriented. We think that when people were like conditioned to believe that people say something, there's sincerity and honesty behind it, when in fact it's often the opposite. People are using words to disguise what they really feel. Oh, you look great. Your screenplay is wonderful. You know, you've lost so much weight. Do I look great?


Yeah, no, I was just joking, but, um, so, you know, and I felt that way since I was a kid, like a sort of like was my spirit growing up like because the adults around me seem so insincere and hypocritical. They were always wearing a mask. Always.


But the body doesn't lie. Words lie all the time. But your tone of voice doesn't lie. Your eyes how open they are, the how your skin moves up. When you really smile, you don't smile your posture and then your actions and your behavior. You can't live with those things.


And yet that's like you're sitting there in front of you. What's the secret to understanding every single human being you encounter and you're ignoring it? How stupid is that? Because you're just listening to people's words. You know, there's nothing more important than what you just said, and this is not a joke, is plastic surgery going to. Make that less potent. That was a real question you like you get Botox, yeah. If people start getting Botox is going to be harder to read faces.


That's an interesting well, you're going to be reading the Botox and then you're going to be reading something else like this person. This is you're insecure and fear.


Yeah, but that's a terrible look. The tightness in your skin where you can't your eyes crinkle when you're smiling and your skin is.


I believe now that wrinkles are a sign of youth. Uh huh. Well, then I'm young. It's switched.


It is switched.


So you you and my horse are who taught me what really the best thing you've ever said to me that that's truly honored you and my horse are my teachers, basically in terms of under leaving.


Because I had a very dyslexic view of the world, I thought, look, I believe I'm mildly dyslexic, but I thought words were true. I just thought what people said. I thought things people said was the truth. Yeah. I didn't understand that behavior was truth yet.


Is that what's happening with my body language now? Like what have you ascertained anything for me since you've met me? Because I'm I'm I was so worried I was going to be unctuous with you and like, just like puke up. Compliments, well, all I noticed was when I first came in, you were a little bit tense and nervous and you have like relaxed. You have that kind of that's sort of gone a little bit. Mm hmm. No, I'm wrong.


No, I think you're right.


So, like, maybe you since you cried or something, something happened, changed. Like you kind of let go of some of your defenses or whatever. That's about it.


And what is the difference between jealousy and envy? Well, jealousy is usually like involving three people, like a triangle, so if if we were in a relationship which were not to worry and panic and there's a third person, and because your wife is also my hero. So it's a while, this is just a wild confluence of, OK, my dreams come true.


So if there was a third person there in this triangle and he was making moves on you and you were kind of falling for him, I would be jealous of him. But envy is something larger than that. You don't just envy someone because somebody that you're interested in is interested in them. You envy their position, their power, their success, their good looks and all of those things. It's not it's not necessarily a triangular thing. You can be envious of one person, right?


Not because there's a third person involved. It's a fine distinction. And in the English language, we use the words interchangeably. But I love the word envy because it has a really old etymology. You know, it comes from the word invidia, which means the evil eye in Latin. Wow. So because N.V. has some kind of something with the eyes, when people are envious, they shows up in the eyes.


So I like the word envy, but is there a plan to download your brain into a computer? I'm not joking. Not that I know of.


Should be like Britney likes Freedom is on the podcast. A couple of like he's you know, does the AI for Tesla like and is working on the NewLink like we should download your brain.


This is real or is it's like are we in a simulation. No, but I mean is this a real thing?


Yes, I think it's going to be in our lifetime. Oh, it's not yet though. Not yet.


But you would be the first if if that would be, you know, would be interesting, whether that would be like a form of immortality. Yeah, that's what I mean. Instead of being like Walt Disney and having your body frozen. That's right.


You'd have your brain live on or you wouldn't be conscious because we need to download everything that's in your brain for infinity. Oh, I don't know if you want everything in my brain. That would be kind of the hippocampus.


I want the whole hippocampus because all of the you know, and I think that the reason you have unlocked my power, what your work does is it shifts all the things we've been told.


Our weaknesses are actually our strengths. And you also, you know, women are told they play games and that they're Treki. Yeah, and who doesn't play games, who isn't tricky? Why wouldn't you? Yeah, you know, it's just.


If you're going to just be the coach, if you're going to play games, just be the coach, I guess, and that's you. And and that's just because in the art of seduction, I remember like I started I I'm known for yelling on stage. I'm known for screaming. I started talking less loudly when I read the seduction. Oh, really? Yeah.


Well, maybe it's better that you yell on stage.


Well, I yelled because I wasn't hurt as a child. Oh. And then I read your book and it was like, oh, you let people come to you and you talk quieter. Right. And when you're seducing someone, well, you want them to sort of lean in and have them come to you.


So just get the feeling that people like, you know, the books better than I do. I've kind of probably.


Probably, probably. That's fair. Well, you know. Or is that are you seducing me?


That's exactly that. You're seducing me. That's such a seductive thing to say. You're so charming.


Should we be afraid of charm? His charm, a red flag and a person.


It depends on the person itself, you know, so there's charm work. It depends on where it's coming from and from the individuals.


So the weird thing is that really malignant narcissists can be very charming, right? Yeah, because they've learned from a very early age that this is the way to get power. This is the way to get attention. Narcissistic feed is by pretending that they're interested in you and you and your ideas and your thoughts and your life. And they can be very good at they're very good actors. Narcissists are consummate actors, which is part of their power. But there are people out there who are charmeuse, who are have genuine empathy for other people.


You know, and I talk in the art of seduction about that woman, Pamela Harriman. Right. She was someone who was a real people person. I hate that expression. But it's true. She had genuine love for people and she wanted to kind of give them what they needed. Or Benjamin Disraeli. I have the talk. I talk about him in that chapter. You know, he actually had a tremendous love for people and he wanted to help boost their egos because he knew that that's what they needed.


They needed validation and they needed recognition. So it depends on where you're coming from, which is the truth for all of my books. So people blame me for all of the nasty, manipulative, psychopathic people in the world. They think that I train them to be like that through the 48 laws of power, the art of seduction.


But you bring your own weaknesses and weirdness to my books and the kind of a mirror I hold up to you. And for people who aren't like that, they use the book in a much different manner. So charm can be something very beautiful because there's so few people who are truly charming in the world.


Hmm, right. Yes. I think we like to be around people like that because they make us feel better about ourselves, but it just depends on how you come to it.


It's so interesting. Like I've heard, like, do you feel like people blame you for powerful people? Being effective? Well, you know, I don't get as much blame as I probably should. Because what an amazing sentence, what an amazing sentence.


Well, because when I wrote the book, I was expecting people to be really angry, like the pitchforks would come out, you know, but in fact, it's kind of the opposite. So sometimes I get mail, email correspondence from people who say, look, my boyfriend used your book as a primer. He screwed me up and I hate your guts. You know, you should go to hell right now.


He would have done something else if it wasn't for your book or people like that don't need my book.


Yeah, they don't need your DNA like your father. Did he need the 48 laws of power to be a psychopath?


No. No.


So it's in their DNA, right. But, you know, to write your book, your books probably saved her life, frankly. Probably would have killed her if you didn't find your books. That's right.


Oh, I see. Yeah.


But, you know, a lot of women in particular found the book helping them recognize really kind of dark seducers. Yes. They understood that this is what this person is doing to me.


You have created the Cliff Notes in a way, the life hack. Hate that word.


Oh, the worst. That's my people pleaser.


Life hack. I mean, that word hack is just so over you. It's so over you. It's a hack meet and hack in common. You're a hack if you're an original hack, like I have said, such a trigger word for me.


Right. But yeah, you gave us the manual to be able to identify predators and vampires.


Right. This helped dismantle the Mirage. This helped me stop being susceptible to what we call Christmas trees. The Christmas trees is. Something when you walk in a room and you're just a Christmas tree is a person that lights out because they activate all your they give you the perfect neurochemical cocktail of adrenaline and cortisol and dopamine and all the anxiety and the fears and the that yummy cocoon comfort zone that your primary caretakers caused you.


So I used to walk in a room before I read your book and went to 12 step programs and the most borderline personality addict, malignant narcissist. I just they vibrate at a different frequency. I just walk in and go.


And that's to be attracted to them when we're magnetically attracted to somebody because they're recreating you know, they have the negative qualities of our primary caretakers and a lot of strange stefanutto sexual energy is combined with those early childhood wounds, which is very I don't totally understand it.


I mean, there are some very interesting thinkers have written about that. And I don't you know, I'm not one of them, but there's a lot of weird sexual energy connected to kind of malignant parents in our background. You know, and it's why, you know, you could be attracted to someone who's exactly the wrong type for you.


Yes. And you know it. But you can't help it because you feel that physical attraction. And then someone who's like an angel in Sweden who has none of those problems, you're not attracted to them.


And it's truly in my sponsor. And Elhanan says this is like I get bored in my attachments, I get bored. So it's like I need to chase the approach it.


Once I have your approval, I stop the neurochemicals that give me that adrenaline turns into dopamine. So it's like if I'm not chasing you, I don't love you. You know, if I have your approval, I'm bored. I don't need to fuck you. I've already, you know, and whatever primordial instinct that is, the biological basis of it is like I probably already populated with you, so I don't need to do it again. Right. And it's now about you did say something about getting you were like, I get depressed sometimes.


I mean, is it hard to know all this?


It must be liberating and also kind of onerous to know everything, you know.


Well, you know, I probably I don't get too depressed, most of my depression now comes from my physical condition right now because I was somebody who was very physically active, swimming and hiking and bicycling, and then to wake up one day and it's all gone. I've had to deal with that for two years now. And it's give me a lot of, you know, bouts with depression. And prior to that, when I was younger, before my success, I would often get depressed and even suicidal.


But since I've had success, it's pretty much been under control. Um, the only thing is it gets a little lonely. Mm hmm. Right. So, you know, and that's the kind of the plight of a writer. But I must say, it's I'm so blessed. And each time I have, I if I get depressed, I just go home and or I go into my office and I start working on my book and I'm taken out of myself.


The solution, the antidote to depression is to be taken out of yourself to talk more about yourself.


Therapist, to go deeper into your problems, to find a way to get out of yourself, either through caring about another person or through your work, through your art work, through your comedy, through whatever you create.


And so I'm blessed that I continually have that.


And I wonder that is probably why. And 12 step program service is such a huge part of it is that, um, service keeps you sober, is doing something for someone else. Right. Very much so. Fascinating, and did they just implicitly know that Bill W. who created the 12 steps? I wonder if they just stumbled on that.


Well, I think it's kind of elemental wisdom. I mean, I don't you know, there's a lot of therapists and great writers who've written about that, people like Victor Frankl, who wrote Man's Search for Meaning, which is a wonderful book, recommend you know that book.


I know, but I haven't read it. He would only read your books. I don't I never like I maybe read like three other books. And I was miserable the whole time you've read your book. I've read my you know what's interesting? I had a really do you read your audiobooks? I read one audiobook.


I had a really hard time reading my own book. I couldn't read because I was too busy trying to improve it. I was like, oh, I was beating myself up in my chronic perfectionism came up so much.


Oh, you're a chronic perfectionist. That's a good quality.


You know, it's served me pretty well. I think I'm finally at the point where it's benefited and I keep it. It's a maladaptive behavior that serves me really well, and I think I've gotten rid of the emotional perfectionism that is not serving me and the feeling of being abandoned is like the worst feeling, like you're going to die.


You feel like you're choking on yourself and you might you might die if you're abandoned, like, quite literally. And then, you know, historically, our monkey brain, as if you were alone in a tribe thousands of years ago, you would die if you don't have people nearby. Yeah.


And so I think a lot of it is you're anticipating the end of something and it's like, what masochists do they anticipate the pain that's coming. They want the pain and then they can sort of manage it that way. So I know the end is coming. I know this party will be over. I know this this I'm in Paris. It'll be over in five days and I'm back to L.A. I know the end is I can't vacation.


I'm miserable on vacation. You are? Yeah.


Well, we have a lot in common.


I don't think anyone's ever said I go on vacation. I think to me the vacation is the planning of a vacation. Yeah. Um, the looking forward to something. But when I get there, it's just I'm disappointed. Are you disappointed a lot in life? Or insitute. Well, nothing is ever going to live up to our imagination. And I'm very grateful that I have a great amount. I have an amazing imagination.


Are you kind of romantic by nature? Do you have a kind of an idealist? I think romantic. And I thought the bad way. I don't mean that negatively.


I think no, I mean, even if you do, that's OK. So I will put people on pedestals and I will romanticize people and I will fill in the blanks with my own projections of like what I had to do with my parents growing up. Like I had to fill in the blanks to make them heroes.


I'm a writer. Yes, you are. So I write TV and comedy.


So I will make you I will make nonfiction fiction to fit whatever will to fabricate whatever will soothe me and make me feel safe. Right. So I guess is that mean romantic comedy?


I don't mean the word romantic. It's it's more like you're idealizing things. You kind of you're mad. You're fantasizing a lot about what things should be. And then when you actually encounter them, you're sort of disappointed.


I've been like that most of my life. I think after now I'm in a radical acceptance and forgiveness is good and everything is exactly third step in 12. Step of everything is exactly as it should be. And there's no need to romanticize anything anymore. I think for me, romanticizing was a survival mechanism and you can control that.


I it took 10 years of some brain reprogramming. Like I think when we romanticize, that's a tool we use to self soothe. It's an anesthetic. And now that I've largely gotten a lot of the things that I wanted and healed a lot of the invisible wounds that were causing me the pain. So I don't need to romanticize as much anymore.


OK. Well, I mean, I think I tend to do that a lot, and I remember about 15, 16 years ago, I was invited to London to give like a seminar on seduction at like the Soho House. And I was imagining all of these like English breaks.


And I was so excited to be this is going to be like my book Come to life.


And I just imagined it. And I kind of totally and then I got there.


And I hope none of the people who were there listening to this idea, I was so disappointed.


They were the opposite of what I thought they would be, what it would be like.


You know, it's so interesting you say that because. No, I do do that. Don't worry. We're still the same. OK, thank God.


I, I do like I was doing I was touring this past weekend and I was doing shows outdoors in Denver and in Connecticut and in New Jersey and in my head I painted this picture of it being outside like Shakespeare in the park, like there was a stage and there was green and I showed up.


It was a parking lot and there was dumpsters and human shit, really. And people outside in masks distanced and cars were driving by. It was like at the corner of a freeway and cars were honking. All the people that didn't buy tickets to the show were honking at me and ruining the show.


Long way there. And I'm like, you didn't buy tickets and now you're ruining the show you didn't come to. Wow.


I feel relieved. I don't feel disappointed. I feel relieved.


I'm like, oh, OK. I knew it. I was right. It's almost like the Damocles sword isn't hanging, it's fallen, so I don't have to worry about the Damocles sword falling, OK, so I feel a little bit of relief instead of disappointment. When someone disappoints me, I'm like, who?


The shoe dropped. Yeah. Now the shoe can't drop. OK, that's interesting. Yeah, I don't know if I'm quite at that point yet. Maybe I need to go into your program.


You're mad because you had a more messed up childhood than me.


Yeah, whatever. Alcoholic parents don't mean to brag, but that is my big you know, for a writer who could ask for better material than your own child.


I have such I have I'm working on this theory that bad parents are the best parents. Oh, they are.


I give you adversity and you are able the people that I know that had like, quote, loving parents that were attuned to them are the our messes.


So, you know, children are kind of magicians psychologically, because when you're a child, you're so weak and you have to deal with your own weakness and your own vulnerabilities. And children are very willful and strong in their own way. And so when they have parents who ignore them or who are abusive, they find a way to somehow compensate for that. And their compensations often lead to being great artists, great political figures, great actors. Or I mean, I've read millions of biographies for my books.


And I can't tell you how every charismatic, powerful, successful person has had a terrible sorry no as had a messed up childhood. Right. You know, like Winston Churchill's sort of the classic example or Kennedy or people like that.


The more deficient your parents are, the more proficient you become.


You have to compensate for it. You have to find other ways of dealing with this problem. And you you compensate in ways over the weakness, the wound. You build something kind of some sort of strength. And people who have had parents who are calling them, who are just so wonderful and loving, they grow up thinking that life is going to be like that, that they're entitled, they're privileged. Then they enter the work world and they're like, bitch slapped by all the messy crap that comes out, the manipulations.


They don't know how to function.


They don't have any internal skills or strength because everyone was so loving and wonderful and life wasn't like isn't like that at all. So I think it's a it's a blessing in disguise if there is something missing in your in your rearing. Now, my mom is watching this interview.


Oh, so, mother, I had your mom. Thank you. If she is watching. Thank you for what you've done. Oh yeah. I had a wonderful childhood, but I was alone a lot.


So that was me too. It was an absence. Yeah. That's why I developed an imagination and interesting. And you know, I never want anyone to feel sorry for pity me ever when I say like I grew up in an alcoholic home in a very dysfunctional home because it helped me in a very young age learn how observation that's what I do. I'm a comedian. I had to be able to anticipate people's needs. I had to learn to read what someone was going to do, figure out what was about to happen.


And it helped me learn to shape shift. Yeah, into this person needs me to be funny.


This person needs me to be quiet. This person needs me to compliment them. Like walking on eggshells around narcissists really does help you develop the tools you need to be successful in the world.


I agree. So we should assholes should have more kids.


That's what's going to save the world.


Good people, well-adjusted, secure people should not be procreating, OK, because those kids are going to be failures. I think you're right. I think you're right.


I'm really worried that it's it's a really great way to be good.


I'm really worried that people that are, quote, good parents are going to ruin their children by loving them too much.


Yeah. Because children need to develop their own worlds, their own fantasy world, their own mental life, and if if there's too much of the parent there where they don't have any distance from them, then they're not able to develop their independence. And I think not being independent from your parents is the worst thing that can happen to you. You know, I think you are. That's a kind of one you can never get over. And I think that's what happens to a lot of people.


I know I'm thinking of certain examples of my head of people who had the most ideal parents. And people would say, oh, I wish that they had been my parents. Right. But then you look at the kids and all five of them are so messed up.


So messed up. Yeah, the the sickest people I know parents are to get married still. It's like they're still their parents are still married, love each other. And I'm like, oh no.


How traumatizing for you.


I mean that's that's what it is like. You didn't get any tools in your your toolbox is empty. Yeah.


You know, I left a very chaotic, you know, primary caretaker environment that was bifurcated because they were, you know, obviously divorced with a toolbox full of tools full of every kind of dangerous situation I could possibly be.


And I didn't quite know how to use them properly until I read your books. And it all had had to congeal. You know, it all kind of had to, you know, make sense and. You're making me think a lot about like cancel culture is such a gross, like it's just such a like I just get a lot of negativity at me because I'm very triggering to people. Really? Yeah.


I think it's because you're so smart and you're and you don't take bullshit. You kind of see through people a lot and you kind of you've got that, that air about you, that edge.


I hate me if I was insecure. I'd be triggered by me if I was someone else, I'm like, and I think ambition on women is really unsettling to people. It is ambitious is the dirtiest word you can call a woman. Yeah, it upsets people. I think that I am ambitious.


Yeah. I think a lot of men, not that I'm like Mr. Sensitive Guy here, but I think a lot of men need to go through a kind of a process, a mental process, where you think, if I were having to put up with what women put up with, I would be so angry.


It would drive me absolutely crazy to be continually judged by my appearance, to be sort of disdain for showing my ambition for all the things that we kind of just take for granted. If you could just imagine for a moment what that would be like, you would really understand, you know, how horrible and how difficult it is and how it's pervasive. Now, you have to live with this every single day. But we don't we don't think about that.


We just sort of put our own world onto you when we imagine that, you know, everything is great. But that kind of stepping into into what it must feel like, you know, like when people doesn't have it because I'm a man. But if people are judging me about my appearance or my clothes, it gives me the creepiest feeling.


I hate it. I really, really hate it. You know, I want to say, go fuck off.


I don't care what I look like. If my hair is like this forever booger in my nose, I don't care.


It's all I care about.


Yeah, well, if I had to go around thinking like that, it would drive me up a wall constantly having that mirror put up to me about my looks, you know.


So anyway, and it's not only that they do it to us, but do it to yourselves. Other women do it.


Yeah. And our selves. Mm. I do it to me. Yeah. I cakehole myself really.


I walk by a mirror and I go, oh. Margalla, good job, or I go like crow's feet.


Yeah, you're getting jowls, no, no one's no one's nastier than me to myself.


Sorry. No, it's just it's and I have to go. Oh, I internalized this like who's voices that. Yeah. You know that was was that. You know, my inner child, what she deduced, because she wasn't getting the attention when she was young. Right, right, right. It was like, oh, it's it's your fault, you know, because that was the it can't be the parents fault, because then it's too that's too traumatizing to the psyche.


I know it has to be our fault. At least I can. At least I know the. What happened, know, this famous psychologist who analyzed that very great thing, called it the moral defense and the idea that your parents are at fault makes you very frightened because you depend on them for everything. So what you do is you find yourself at fault. That's your defense of it. Like I'm to blame if bad things happen, I'm to blame if they're beating me.


I'm to blame if you know, if they're to blame, then it's too disorganized. It's too stressful. They have flaws. Yeah.


Um, you changed my life when I heard you say the single greatest human need is to be recognized. Why do so few people understand this? Why isn't this taught in schools? Why isn't there Robert Greene class in schools?


People want me to do that, I don't know, but it should be taught in school. I learned stoichiometry. Why was there a chemistry class with Tokyo, it's in in it's like fake equations and chemistry. I don't know. It's when you add elements together.


Well, look at what brought you.


That's a good point.


Well, like, you know, if you could just think about yourself for a moment, you would love to.


My favorite thing to do, you would understand this.


So you yourself want people to recognize you. You want attention. You love it. When you hear you're in a crowd and you hear someone say your name, your ears immediately go, it's the narcissist in all of us. Right? You want attention, you crave it. You crave it. Since you were four, three years old from your parents, from that moment when your parents started to put some distance between you and them, when you were being weaned, etc.


. How do I get attention? I needed from my siblings, from my parents, from my teachers. You want recognition, but can't you make the step and understand that that's what other people want? That's what they want to feel validated. They want to feel the light shining on them. And so instead of always trying to be true, I let you sit in my chair today.


Is this your chair?


This is normally where I said I'm sitting normally where the guy sets. This is the first time I've ever done this role reversal. I'm very honored that it is very comfortable, actually. Good. I like it. Good.


Um, so. You know, it's like it's like a key that you possess for getting people to like you, and there's nothing wrong with getting people to like that so yucky and insincere. And that's just bullshit. You want people to like you. If you're trying to finance your film, you're trying to get people interested in your ideas, trying to get any kind of success to not kill you, get them to not kill you, et cetera. So you have to have that power and that ability.


And that's the golden key, is understand that they want attention, they want validation, they want recognition, sort of thinking about how you were going to get it.


If you just put your energy and your your mirror neurons into them and think about what they're how they're thinking, you'll unlock so many amazing things, so many powers of persuasion and influence.


When we tried to get someone to like us, all we do is think about how we are going to present ourselves to them. How am I going to get you to like me? Just ask them questions about themselves and just focus on them, not us. I wonder what the biological basis for that is.


I mean, it must be just her biological basis. For what? For not being able to just put four, you know, cliche sense yourself in someone else's shoes to not be able to make that jump to. Why wouldn't other people want the same thing? We I want probably because we can't even there are some shame in accepting that we want validation. There is so much shame about saying, I want to I want you to like me. Right.


There's shame there. Isn't that interesting. Right. We want to go look, I don't care what people thought and think of me.


Well, you do. Avenal like to take a break in our regular scheduled. But does it regularly scheduled programming to have a cigarette? No, I'm not pregnant. Lots of announcements that we need to make. We're going to be at the Midway in San Francisco, November 7th and 8th at the midway outside distance. No covid pandemic free in San Fran with Taylor Thomlinson, great, brilliant young comedian who I'm jealous of.


Yeah, she has bangs and she has bangs. I had bangs at that age, too. Me, too, because I was, too, because I couldn't afford Botox and I thought getting bangs would cover up the wrinkles on my forehead. I love her bangs. Yeah, they're amazing.


I'm feeling very healthy.


Is that a good segue into talking about jellyfish?


There's no good way to do these ads.


Like there's no way to do them very healthy. Yeah, I'm so I just do I feel I just feel like the pandemic is a nightmare.


I know it's a nightmare, but the silver lining is that everything can be delivered to your home.


I mean, I feel like this is the we're in the great reorganisations. We're in the great shift. Healthy food just shows up at your house.


Not only you'd want to organize during this time, I'm obsessed with how fresh someone just broke into my house. Maybe it was someone maybe it the help of fresh delivery person.


I hope it was all right. I would like to make some meals. How fresh is America's number one mail delivery? That yes, I did know that they deliver right to your door. Fresh ingredients, pre measured, all spaced out, chopped out, ready to go.


The craziest thing is that this is written on a screen in front of us, but better than not reading it off the screen. You're just saying that because I use that fresh for years.


I know I really enjoy it recently.


Maple, mustard, chicken leg, leg with a leg and it was delicious. There's potatoes, there was green beans.


But to explain to people that are listening that are like trying to fast forward through the ads what that even means, what that means, it means they sent me a box full of delicious meals, ingredients.


If you're listening to this podcast, you're a podcast listener and you hear ads all the time. Hello, Fresh. I've heard that on a lot of other podcasts. Why should they order today, Benteke?


Well, hopefully because you trust and believe in us.


And also we know it's so easy. Easy. I literally made Tuscan bacon filled ravioli.


Did you know that existed? Stop letting grocery store lines steal your life. That's what it is. Cooking takes your serenity in your life. It's not even about that.


Hello. Fracking is fun. OK, that's the whole point of hello fresh. So it's a great time and they make the minister.


Do you know what sucks. What? Prepping. Cooking. Yes. I don't have a team like Rachael Ray to put salt in bowls for me. I do it all myself and I do do that. And how they do it for me. Yes, they do it all the time. Walking into my own studio, kitchen handled.


It's like the new it's like the better version of Lunchables.


Yeah, I remember Lunchables. I make that delicious food, I eat it and then I break the plates and throw them away because I'm not doing a dish.


A dish. I'm not doing a dish. The one I own so I can afford. Go to hello fresh dotcom. That's good for you. Ninety and use go good for you.


Ninety to get a total of ninety dollars. Ah there you go. Including free shipping. Let's have a fresh dotcom slash. Good where you ninety and use code. Good for you. Ninety to get a total of ninety dollars off including free shipping.


Exclamation point. Exclamation point, first time at manscape, you know a lot about balls, tell us about this brand.


What do you why do I know a lot about ball? You play basketball, baseball with men.


Look, I love men. And there's this I don't know. I guess I have this reputation for being like a man hater, which is so untrue because in a lot of my standup specials, I've talked about like how balls look unnecessarily.


Old idea. I used to joke that said, why do all balls look like they're one hundred years old?


That was in my year figuring out that my first special that maybe I was well, I was also dating guys around eight years old, so maybe that was lie.


And then I said, they look like an elephant ear dried apricots, like I had a whole run on how ugly balls are.


And I feel bad about that because it's ball shaming or I was I was a ball because I think at the time there was no companies that were making products to even give men the opportunity to fix that problem. So it was just I regret doing that. And I'd like to make a public apology.


I'm making a public apology to all the men that I felt offended.


And I would like to make a public apology to manscape for taking this long to mention that you're the ad we're talking about. So we are talking about manscape because they have figured this out. They have a crop care kit which is formulated. It's a formulative bundle to give you a plus bawls.


That was even an option.


Having D minus your B have D plus boobs, but you don't want D minus bawls, you want A plus balls and manscape is going to get you there blue.


But we have to just talk about that. Hold on.


Oh that's got to be talking about it. That's OK. But I don't know if I'm doing this for me, but don't you think they might want to do. Yeah, OK. If they decide to pull this ad, that's fine. Fine. I'll be fine. We'll be OK.


We I'm just saying I appreciate that there's a company that is giving men the opportunity to clean up the swamp that is their balls in a way that's not emasculating.


To be fair, this is what you would shave your balls with, very precise.


This would be because I'm holding the nose hair trimmer, which I use for myself as well, because I have an asymmetrical nose. But that's for another story.


The lawnmower three point oh trimmer offers a replaceable ceramic blade with advanced skin. Safe technology helps reduce grooming accidents, water. It's water with a light on. You can do this as a light in the shower. So this is how you shave your balls, manscape your balls, your butt and your body butthole.


And your body legitimate, but but, yeah, I guess you could shave that part, too. Yeah, no, you have to. I mean, that's that happens. That's real. Vegan cruelty free, die free sulfate free, Perriman free, love it so much, you are free.


The products that she's talking about that are all those things. Obviously the lawnmower is all those things. Yeah, but also the crop care kit includes ball deodorant, ball reviver a body wisch ball wipes. Yes, a foot deodorant also.


Dude just the packaging is so sexy.


It is very because I just feel like men can't buy products for there to clean their balls and scrotum dick. What do you call all of it. Your package. I don't talk about it.


OK, good. Because it's always like pink and sparkly and like it's made for women.


They don't make the ball products are made for women.


Normally I'm just where are you shopping. OK, get 20 percent off and free shipping at manscape dotcom promo code. Whitney, add some swag to your saggy bad guy. Guys, buy this for yourselves. You won't be embarrassed to have this all over your bathroom. And women buy this as a gift for your man. This is a great gift for your preacher. The same on the mall, your next door neighbor.


Dad, this is a great bye for your grandpa. The balls are gross. It's Father's Day coming up.


You have a male babysitter. I need to. You made me realize. That's right. My greatest need is to be recognized. I'm a stand up comedian. I became a comedian to control how I was embarrassed. Right. Because that's my greatest fear. Right. I'm just going to control it and to make sure I'm always being recognized and seen.


Right. Invisible. And this should be no shame about that.


And it's interesting because you would think that social media is sort of going to fix that. It does. It does. Because you're not seen in the right way. Right. Or you're not seen enough. It just creates this next insatiable. Am I seen enough? Well, getting a like on Instagram isn't isn't really recognition isn't really about because it's so cheap that you press a button. No one sees you. You're not talking to them. There's no kind of verbal or physical feedback.


It's achieved. So it doesn't it leads to just an addiction. It's like a little tiny hit.


It's one too many. A million. Not enough. Yeah. So. You know, but there's a lot of shame attached around things that have to do with human nature, which is sort of a big problem for us. So the idea of ambition, the idea of wanting power, the idea of wanting to be recognized, you know, to have attention, there's so much negativity surrounding that. So when people people have to be so inauthentic about it, they have to pretend that they're not really interested in power, they're not really interested in attention.


You know, they're just these like saints walking around kind of things.


But pretending never works. Like to me, I feel like I learned from you like everyone knows everything, right? Even if they don't know they know what they know, if they're not connected to their gut about you. So it's like wearing the mask never works. So why do we keep doing it? Do you know what I mean? Yeah, it's like it's not even being rewarded necessarily, like being an authentic, a pretending and being fake. Everyone knows on some level that there is an incongruence between what who you pretend to be and who you are.


Yet we just keep doing it. We we continue to be full of shit. But your work helped me with the shift of like, oh, you're pretending you're wearing this mask to get the things that you want.


In reality, you're only going to get them. If you stop trying to chase something, you chase it away. But. Yeah, I couldn't say it any better.


You finally silenced me three, you know, cancel culture. I'm fascinated because I like to compare it to the Roman Coliseum.


So that's interesting. Like, we just have this primal need to the schadenfreude on which you talk about at length. We enjoy watching other people go down. Right. Suffer because either it's not us or we're getting the primal reward for learning what ostracizes people so that, you know, we were like evolved to like what?


Like when you want to see a car, you got to look at a car crash. You got to look at a car. You can't not look at a car crash. And I think that's part of our dopamine reward system, rewarding us to educate ourselves on it.


I don't know if it's if I'm what I'm saying is any different from that. But the way I look at it is we're so repressed socially. We have to pretend to be these saints, these virtuous people from a very early age since we enter school or even in our families. And so we're continually presenting this kind of saintly mask so that that dark side that I have a chapter on in my book here, it gets deeply repressed, but everybody has a dark side, myself included.


And so you want to have it's like it's like a pit bull, that side. You want to be able to walk it out in public and get it out for a walk and get to pee and poop and do all its things outside. So council culture or rage on the Internet or trolling, these are all ways that people can get out their dark side. It's their shadows that gets to speak. So they get they get some that hostility, that kind of fuck you kind of energy, that bitchiness that they have to repress so much.


Here's a socially sanctioned way to get out, to get it out, you know, to be and to pretend that you're being virtuous and political at the same time. Right.


Did you name your shadow? Did you ever do that exercise where you have to name your shadow and, like, be friends with it? Sure.


I mean, I even have that in the book amusia.




Yeah. I knew secrets worth keeping. Like, should we keep some secrets from yourself or from others?


My brain just exploded all the blood everywhere, vultures flying.


Well, because there are a lot of secrets that we don't even want to admit to ourselves, you know, and sometimes you need illusions about yourself that are healthy.


So if you knew all of the truth about your own motives, it would probably really depress the hell out of you and you'd kill yourself. Right. So it's good to. Is that the like?


I know that in my family there was sexual abuse in children and I think. A lot of us just it's like it's just in a box in your film. How many siblings did you have?


It's an endless number of illegitimate ones. Suicide.


I have every I guess so.


Oh, OK. Since you said that and I'm happy to bring it up, I made jokes about being my ancestry, being from West Virginia on a talk show about a year ago. And I had to go to West Virginia and apologize because West and the joke was about how are they ancestral trauma of being from West Virginia and the coal mining in my family.


We are so and basically being barefooted and hollers in that because the terrain of West Virginia was hollas hollow.


What we say holer, we had to I mean, the Hatfields and McCoys like I that's that's the type of resilient that's great honey badger shit I come from.


And so of course the state went, yes, I have that Scotch Irish. It's our Vikings really Scotch Irish. We're kind of our Vikings in a way. Right. I guess, hmm, maybe I could cancel for this. This might be my cancer moment, but I do think, like, do we. Do you think I have a little theory going that has no scientific basis whatsoever that this surge of cancer culture that just happened in the pandemic, of course, I'm sure the pandemic amplified it.


People being stuck in their homes, people on their phones, more, of course, but also the absence of sports like. When sports went away, did we sort of have to? Transmute what we were normally getting that fix through sports. Never thought of that. I mean, I'm somebody who loves sports and I know that I went through massive withdrawal symptoms, you know, because May was the time for Lakers.




All revved up and getting my testosterone, the nuts. And that's in your love of sports. It's testosterone, but it's also the primal tribal pitting against each other. My team winning. Losing.


Yeah. But so you're thinking like men, because I don't know if women went through that or that's a great point. No, biology is sexist. It's not you. Yeah, but interesting. You're right.


So that was like that led to cancel culture. I was just.


No, it's it's not a it doesn't hold a lot of water. That's one thing. But look, I'm pitching chapters here and at the same time there's. So this was not sublime. Fair enough.


OK, well, no, but I do I'm there's this event called Calcio Storico in Italy every year, cusk Calcio storico, it's called.


And then Calcio. Yes, I do not I do not speak good Italian. I just hosted a podcast on Silvio Berlusconi and I had to have a service.


I did. I did you interview it was it was for one tree and it was I narrated the one Dree Wonder is a podcast network that does they did this thing called Dirty Jon, which is about this guy that was a con artist who I love it.


And then it was so it was like a ten episodes and it was like a documentary series about Silvio Berlusconi. I narrated it.


Oh wow. I know. He's amazing. What a fascinating farce. Donald Trump, father figure, truly, truly. And Putin, he's really good friends with Putin.


And, you know, can I tell you something that might interest you?


Yeah, I had some Russian movers at my house recently, and I was like, where are you guys from? They said Russia. And I was like, can I ask you about Vladimir Putin? And they were like, who's asking? And I was like, no, no, no, no bias. No, I'm not a I don't thank you. You know, I'm not blaming you for the fall of democracy you don't like. I'm biased.


I'm neutral. Like I'm a comedian. I'm an anthropologist. I'm not. Going to be emotional about it, what do you guys think of Vladimir Putin? I'm just so curious. How would I know?


And he goes to guys, they go, oh, well, we all fully believe that the Vladimir Putin that we see in the media is an actor with plastic surgery that was given plastic surgery to like they all believe that over there, like it's not even a. You sure you don't like too weird? These were Russian movers. I mean, take it with a grain of salt. But but that's what's the word on the street as they all go.


Oh, well, that's not really like they have sort of all accepted that it's an actor.


That's what happens from living so many years in Russia, in the Soviet Union, where you don't have no connection to reality anymore and you believe anything because your life is so filled with misinformation.


But it's also it's also I could show you photographs on my iPhone with Putin. He's real. He's not he's not an actor. He's there. I have people who've met and we've talked to him.


But I mean, he's still alive. But there's someone that looks younger that had plastic surgery. That's like his double look. I know. I watch too many movie.


Remember Dave from the movie Dave? It's like that. And it fed into my the conspiracy theory for me because there were some Polish leader who died in a plane crash and his twin took over for a while, his twin brother. And so I was like, that is so fascinating to me, yeah, because also Vladimir Putin, there's that video of him doing horseback riding with a shirt on.


Yes. And Taekwondo. And there's all these people that he's fighting with that are acting like he's beating them, but he's not. Yeah, but that's him, so he does create this surreality anyways, playing ice hockey and making goals left, right.


And everyone's like he's in The Truman Show. I mean, everyone's pretending, you know, so Calcio storico, Carluccio Culture Calcio storico. It's in Florence. It's bare knuckle boxing meets football. And it's basically me. I mean, it's may mix with football and it happens once a year. And there's the only rule is No. Two on one. The only rule is No. Two on one. These are not professional athletes. These are butchers, lawyers, doctors.


And the teams are they don't look like they look like me. And they do train, you know, they train. And it's a good half a point. And it's scoring a points almost impossible in this game because you I mean, the point is to just beat the shit out of it.


That's right. That's right.


Testosterone and it's the teams are neighborhoods. Oh. So it's especially tribal. And a lot of it is brothers against brothers and fathers and sons. And they I believe the quarters are like an hour. This goes on for like three days. Are people like getting concussion? People are just being pulled off the field constantly. So if you just keep watching, like they just get pulled off, pulled off, it's like Rollerball.


You ever seen the movie Rollerball? That's exactly what it is. But when this happens in June in Florence, violence goes down to almost zero. So it's just like an interesting yeah, that's not catharsis, but it's like they channel. So I oh, I want to make a documentary on this and I think someone's already done it, but I could never just like get over there when it happened. You've not seen one of these. No. I want to go so bad.


It happens in June. But so I was thinking when all of the when the cancer culture got worse, I was like, I wonder what was taken away.


Oh, you mean culture? Storico was probably not canceled as well.


No, I was just like cancel culture. Like when sports went away, I was like, maybe that's part of why cancer culture went up or is this are we just in a cleansing? Are we in like a reorganization like of what's appropriate?


You know, we're going through a mass shaming. That's kind of.


What do you mean, like around the whole. The whole Black Lives movement, like cancel culture, like comedians making offensive jokes. Ten years ago, we canceled John Wayne was homophobic, like, oh yes, of course he was right.


What are you talking about? Right. Yeah, I see what you're like. Our addiction to outrage. Well, look at the statistics. I didn't understand. Yes, I think I gave the video.


No, no, no. I didn't understand your council culture thing, but now you're talking about it. I understand it. Wow, isn't this amazing? Look at the referee's outfit, he's like from the 15th. Oh yeah, they all dress like Lemony Snicket or whatever this says. They dress like Jowett, like court jesters or something. Wow. It's so amazing. And then if you look you it's no, it's it's incredibly violent.




That would work well here with, like, the proud boy, the boogaloo guys. Yeah. Versus Antifa this instead of having it out in street support. I have it in. Yep.


Truly. Because this may be happening in November.


So you might be going then. No. You're here. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. In the United States. And it's very sad with guns. What is your day like.


How do you spend your day. I don't know if people want to know because it's so radically boring, um, so I exercise every morning, you know, I do either my bike ride.


Are you able to sleep? Yeah. Your brain's able to shut up.


Well, if you take a lot of CBD, you know, I've spent my whole life on sleeping pills, so videos wonder.


Really? Oh, my God. Really, it's wonderful. It doesn't seem hardcore enough for me, but I can hook you up with the really pure stuff.


Yeah. Makes me sleep really well. We're talking, um, but yeah, I sleep but so basically I'm just exercising and I'm doing my best. I could do two hours of physical therapy every morning because, um, you know, it's really want to get over this. Yeah. Yeah. And then finally after lunch. After my nap. Yeah.


I get to writing and it's like my only what I look forward to all day and you do it on a computer.


Well I can't, I can't type. Right. So I handwrite and I take to have a dictation software. This is really interesting I'm sure.


But no it is. No, but you are easily and well, one of the greatest minds to ever live in your rituals is fascinating.


Right. So I have lunch, I have my tea, I take my nap. I then go into my office or onto my patio and I either handwrite or I'm writing the book now instead of the research.


And, you know, like, do you get haunted by your own brain? Like, it must have salt. You must most salt your attention in terms of like, you know, like I, I just thought I'd think I'd have to write it down, you know.


Oh yeah. Yeah. It's it's also getting a little bit older and slower, like even in this conversation. Oh I want to remember that. I can't remember things that happened a minute ago. Me too. Yeah. So I have great ideas.


Came to me in the shower, which is usually often where they come. Interesting.


I don't remember them.


So now I have to have my notebook in the bathroom, drives me nuts and I, and I never know because I'm there's a little thing we say in comedy where it's like if it's funny, I'll remember it, you know, because like I have forgotten.


That's true. That is there's wisdom in that. Not that I keep saying there's so much wisdom in you, but it is a recurring theme here, but an idea that that you seem to forget. It'll come back if it was really worth it. So I've learned that as well. You know, it doesn't like the most brilliant idea for one of my books didn't just go down the drain. It eventually come back to you. But, yeah, I don't know what you mean.


If I'm haunted by my own, like, I just I would imagine your brain is like I have this idea. I have this idea. Like I said, you know, can you sort of control when you're inspired? Can you you know, you can basically work when you're working and not work when you're not working. I get you. Can you be present as Robert Green, just the human being, are you? Because I think I mean, I'm a comedian.


It's different. I guess it's my job. I'm just always working. Yeah, me too.


It's hard to relax. It's hard to get out of that mode, particularly when I'm building up steam. So imagine for me, like that book took four or five, five years to write.


Wow. So you've been researching literally over three hundred books for that. You've got everything organized, then you start writing it and then as you get deeper and deeper, it's all you think about.


Your brain is like pickled in this. Yeah, that's all you could think about.


And it's good because ideas will come to you left, right and centre, but you can't turn it off. So I knew. I know what you mean. Yeah, that's true.


There's love real. I mean, as real as anything is real. I mean, I heard a simulation, um. Yeah, I mean, it's hard to say I love you, you do say I love you to my wife. Yeah, like when did you when did you say it and how did you know you loved her?


Opponents say it often enough, but it's your.


But she knows it's you. So she your behavior is what's to as I say, you don't need to say I don't want to use those words.


You want to prove it to the other person because it doesn't work so well with women all the time.


Well, I what I do now, being your student, is if a guy wants to say I love you, I go, no, no, I'll tell you when you love me.


Right. You don't need to tell me. Well, a guy unsolicited saying I love you is sometimes the best.


That's very fishy. Yeah. Particularly if it happens very quickly. Yeah, it's like the third date and he's saying, I love you. Something's up. Something smells. Yeah. Fish.


Know what a guy says. Yeah. No, I had a guy say I love you to me like quickly. And it was just like, no, don't, don't do that. Don't know what. OK, call your mom, work it out like I'm not.


I'll tell you when you love me. Yeah, I'll know.


Yeah. Right. I mean, it's a feeling it's not a word, right?


Our words were so verbally oriented that we think words are like magic, but it's it's an emotion that you feel it's not just like some thing out there that exists, like an objective reality. It's a feeling. It's an emotion. And you know it. When the other person loves you. Right. You can feel it.


You sense it in their behavior. Right.


So saying it is often a form of manipulation, not always, because sometimes particularly if the other person is depressed or they're feeling unloved and and they need to hear it, then I understand that, you know, I mean, what I've learned in my books, but I've also learned in life in general is to really forgive people for their for their flaws and their problems. So if somebody needs to hear those words, I understand that there's nothing wrong with that.


You should feel ashamed. And I'm not trying to shame you, but it's better to just prove it to them in some way.


It's also. Yeah, and it's like no one wants to be flawed. It took me so long to figure that out.


It's like why I say radically forgive your parents because they did the best they could with the tools they got. No one wakes up and is like, I'm going to be a shitty parent. Like my parents probably did better than they were capable of.


They tried so hard to to be good. It's just their version of good parents was very whatever it was.


So it I have such radical compassion, forgiveness and people are flawed because no one wants to be flawed. Right. We should have sympathy for people that are flawed. Right. Right. We should pity people that are flawed. But instead our ego I guess, gets involved and well, personally, we think we're narcissists, so we think they're flawed because of us.


Well, the other thing is, do you think that you're not flawed? You know, I'm flawed. I have tremendous issues and problems and weaknesses and vulnerabilities. So and I understand you have to talk about them with a therapist or you're there.


You have a therapy. Your imagine being Robert Green, is it Phil?


It is.


I have gone to the barrier. Phil he's amazing. It's amazing. Have you've been to Phil?


I read the tools, which is I've recommended it before. It's good. It's a little bit JV in some parts it's a little bit elementary, but there are some amazing exercises. The fear about the exercise and the reversal of desire. Yeah, stuff I love. I'm a fan of Phil. I wasn't famous enough to get into Phil.


I only went like three times ten years ago. I couldn't get in.


Yeah, that's I was there about twelve, eleven years ago. The thing is, he's got he's has an illness. I hope he's still alive.


I mean, he had like fibromyalgia of substance, but he was so tired all the time and then he just stopped seeing people. He would have continued seeing me, but he had to schlep all the way to the west.


So I think is amazing. I think Barry is his sort of like Barry, Michael's like son. His son's great. Wow. Jesse. Yes.


He's who I learned to name my shadow from Barry. Barry. Yeah, he has.


You name your shadow. Wow. Jesse is going to hear this on the play.


He's going to be really happy in and the way this podcast is going to change so many people's lives. Phil starts on a podcast, changed my life by saying, when you admit your fears and insecurities and shame, something you're ashamed of. Grace enters the room, which is, what, 12 step program meetings do you say, I want a drink? I cheated. I'm a piece of shit like you're able to have Grace because you released your shame.


He just I heard it the right when I needed to hear it. And like everything clicked and it went, you're only as sick as the secrets you keep. You're ashamed if you're insecure to say it out loud.


Well, you're great because as a comedian in the way you do it, you're able to get all of that out in your persona that you express to people. That's great therapy and you give people permission to do it, too.


They go, oh, like I my career is saying all the things out loud that most people would keep secret.


That's just what I do for a living. Right. I just say, like, I got breast implants. The thing everyone pretends that you're not. I mean, I had an eating disorder. Like I just say all the things that most people are not supposed to say. Right?


I mean, it's I have Tourette's. No joke. I mean, it's it's you know, it upsets people a lot.


So it's interesting because you found your way to the perfect career or profession for that. That's like therapy for you, that you're able to get exercise all of your demons. That's what I mean. Like how children are brilliant at compensating. You found your way to the perfect way of externalizing everything that's inside of you and getting recognized for it and giving a living and getting some of your ideas out. And it's service.


Yeah, which is the stepping outside of yourself now. So for me, I, I said the book that I wrote was basically my fourth step. I published my fourth step. And that's like service in service is the thing that keeps us emotionally, sort of.


So you do another book. I, I, I'd rather just be your research assistant on Sublime.


OK, I'm going to keep you as long as I possibly can until you physically call the police on me. Um, I'm not sure I, I won't um. Do you think that what are you laughing at.


Reminds me of some horror movie. Something. Yeah. No it's going to be boxing. Helena, I'm going to cut off your arms and legs and just keep you here.


I mean, we already said earlier, like, I'm already trying to get him on these peptides that I'm taking that are supposed to make you, like, live longer. David Sinclair, who's coming on the podcast, has talked about this. I'm Joe Rogan and stuff like your you've turned me into the opposite of a murderer. Like I'm going to keep you alive longer than you want to be alive.


The form of murder it is, you know. Yes, I'm murdered. Yeah, certainly your independence like Weekend at Bernie's.


Just carry it around for a very effective heuristics.


Is, oh, OK, that's a good conversation starter.


Yeah, I'm not that a part of my job now, but bitch you. I read in one of the books or heard something in my hippocampus, which is just all full of you, it's your bathroom, is your hip. Yes, it really is.


The fact that you went into my bathroom is like, horrifying, I.


Remember you saying that if you go into a store back when we shopped at stores, if that's what you think, I think I feel like I'm front row at a comedy routine.


I have a great time.


I haven't been funny at all, though. I'm not being funny with you. OK, well, this is serious to me. Well, then I have to see when you are.


I'm not going to waste any time trying to be funny with you. OK, go on.


This is really when you're in a store that when if the salesperson touches you on the arm, you're 50 percent more likely to buy the product. Yeah. Yeah, this is this is a book I read for the Laws of Human Nature is a French book. It's like a book on manipulation. Basically, I saw the title in French. I got very excited. And basically it was the point of the book was marketing people are the most amazing manipulators in the history of mankind.


Every book on psychology, every book on in neuroscience, they have read completely and they base all of their little tricks and maneuvers on all of the science. So in the 1940s and 50s, all of these experiments were done by psychologists on people like situations where someone would go up and touch your arm and what would happen kind of thing. And they uncovered all of these things about people. Right. And then they incorporated into sales techniques and they wrote books that that salesman could read that were given his seminars to people who were in these kinds of positions.


But the take away from all that is it reveals how unconscious we humans are. Right. So if someone does something like that where they I can't I'm blanking out right now. But some of the examples of the book is they're mind blowing techniques of manipulation. You know, you set it up by saying something, you know, you can't remember them. So I wish I could. But anyway, it reveals that we are unconscious of why we decide things.


Right? So if I you know, if we buy a product, we think that we're buying it based on rationality. Like we chose that car because, you know, it gets the best mileage, et cetera. We're not aware of the fact how there are other influences going on from advertising, from peer pressure. So for me, when I read the book, it's like. Wow, there's so many things going on unconsciously about what we decide and effective heuristics means that we think that we make our decisions based on our own thinking patterns, on rationality.


But everything we decide is basically emotion based. And economists have used that word, effective heuristics to explain the buying patterns of the public, that it's not based on rational decision, it's based on emotions. And that explains the irrationality that they have had to try and analyze in business schools and economists for human behavior, because human behavior is incredibly irrational when it comes to buying things, for instance. So I wish I could remember some of those examples. It's going to haunt me.


What do you do for fun? Why do you ask, do you think I have no fun? No, I'm just curious. I'm just so I'm just curious. Well, like, are you able to just what do you do for fun? I read your books. That's not fun. Watch your your Google talks for fun while I.


Fun is hard for me because I feel like I'm I don't I feel like I have to perform, it's very exhausting to me to have, quote, fun.


I, I because I grew up in a home where I had to be hyper vigilant all the time and that a lot of people together, I'm like a herding dog. I'm like an Aussie Shepherd.


Like, I just get very annoyed because my self-worth for the longest time was defined through how useful I was. Yeah, right. So I was like, how do I my useful how can I be useful to people? And I get disoriented because as a shape shifter and people pleaser that, you know, you hate that word. But it was very exhausting to me to have to take on masks and put them off if there's a lot of people in one place.


So I usually associate fun with parties and groups of people and groups of people is exhausting to me because it's like I have to turn into something different. Like fun. Yeah. So, so fun for me for the most part feels very exhausting.


I'm a little bit better with it now. That isn't fun though.


I know now that you can document stuff for social media. Yeah, I know this is sick, but it's made it a little more fun because I have proof that it happened and I can. Get a score on the fun, because I can post on social media and I can get a certain number of likes and then I and then I feel like, OK, at least I know what happened. I don't have to be left to my own devices wondering how I did.


OK, because that's that's something I perseverating. And how did you do, how did you do.


Like I just kind of want to grade like I was telling someone the other day that I, I was touring and I'm interested in what you think about this. So it was my first time like traveling during the pandemic. Have you gone anywhere yet?


No, I went on a book tour in France and I came back like the day before everything got locked down. So that was like my last trip.


But I haven't when I went to an airport and flew. And you have to for all your you tour here. And it was wonderful, I'm sure.


No, people not only know people, but there was a set of rules everyone had to abide by. Right. I didn't I wasn't in the constant uncertainty of is this person going to be to me? Is this person is this person going to like it was everyone was six feet apart in masks and it was like everyone was in line. And it was so soothing to me to not have to wonder if these irrational creatures, oh, these mercurial creatures around me were going to do something I didn't have to anticipate.


You felt like that before the long before this? Oh, no. When the pandemic hit. I love people. I love being around people who are all abiding by the same rules. And the pandemic has given that to us for now. Uh huh.


You do well in Germany then? I, I would do great.


And Gilliard and The Handmaid's Tale, I just I know what everyone's role is. I know how close I can because I get so exhausted by why is this person staying so close to me. It's a little too close. You're not close enough. Why do I stay like it's just so exhausting having to constantly ascertain. Yeah, well I know.


When the pandemic hit and the lockdown really was strong in L.A., it was wonderful driving on the freeway, you could get anywhere and like a few minutes it was like paradise. The sky was clear. There was no pollution. I rode my bike through Griffith Park. I didn't see anybody. The golf course was closed. Birds were out there. Deer were kind of coming closer. It was like paradise, like the earth before all the shit happened.


It feels like animals revenge. Yeah.


Because this is a big win for animals. Yeah, it is. It's a big win for animals and the Earth in a way.


Do you still get to ride horses? Yes.


Isn't that fun. I would imagine if I were you, that would be my third my fun moments. Yes. Yes. Or being with your dogs. Yeah.


Liberty training with the horse and being with my dogs. That's my fun. Yeah. Because there's an absence of pressure to make fun is just an absence of pressure. Yeah exactly. I feel the same way. That's kind of me. It's not fun is it.


Like I'm having fun. It's just a relief from. Yeah.


That and then why are we afraid.


Why are humans afraid of robots.


Is there a logic to these questions. Because I can't figure it out.


Yeah. What are you what are you gleaning so far for me as the master of human nature? Well, that's an interesting mind.


That's why I see like you write for television, you write dramatically because you're able to come up with surprises come from left.


That's what makes for good comedy and drama. Right. And I've read books about that very thing because I used to try and write sort of comedy stuff, too. That's right.


So I'll talk about your acting career in a minute. Oh, you know that. Yeah, I actually I actually thought it would be funny to I couldn't do it because it would be wasting my time with you making this. But I was like, why did you do it? Because I don't ask about your books at all. I only interview as an actor. You as an actor.


Oh, that would be a very you know, I just want to talk about your acting work. You're about ten.


Yeah, well, robots, um. There's there's a word here I'm going to sound so fucking the area. Oh, I said he sounded so dumb for the last two hours. Oh, now you're going to start sounding smart.


But Freude that he had a concept of the uncanny and the uncanny valley, fairly uncanny valley. What's the uncanny valley is not the dissonance between when our brain is trying to figure out like a doll, like something that's fake and versus real. Wow, I've never heard of that. I have to write this down. The uncanny valley. Can you can you remember it?


Yes, because.


Well, then I'd kind of it. Yes. Can I say it in eloquent terms?


The Uncanny Valley is a concept first introduced in the 1970s by Mass Horacio Mori. I'm going to get canceled for mispronouncing that.


Then a professor at the Tokyo Institute of Technology, MORI, coined the term Uncanny Valley to describe his observation that as robots appear more humanlike, they become more appealing, but only up to a certain point.


OK, well, the idea and the uncanny is it's something that is familiar but not familiar at the same time. Right. So it's something that you've repressed or that you're not facing. And then it comes back and it kind of haunts you in reality. Right. So I'm trying to think of I mean, Freud had his own description of his uncanny experience. He was walking around in the streets of some Italian city, I think it was Florence. And he ended up in the red light district because, well, you know, because he's Freud and he's been studying the unconscious.


Yeah, yeah. I meant that I was a little bit ashamed.


So he left and he walked around and he came back and he ended up again in the red light district asking what the hell's going on here?


And then he tried to leave and he walked in like he came back a third time and he realized that this was so uncanny.


It was like it was like his unconscious was taking over and making him behave in certain ways.


So robots are like people, but they're not people.


So they're sort of familiar.


They're kind of like how people seem to be in life. There's a robotic side to everybody in life, but they're not they're not alive. So it's uncanny. And so, like in the early 19th century, people were obsessed with dolls and were called automata.


They like would make dolls that would come to life and they would go, wow, that was like the first sort of intimation of kind of what is truly uncanny in life. So that's the thing about it, is that people almost seem robotic to us in some way. But the robot is even more like that.


And I don't know if I'm explaining, you know, it's it's this is hard to explain and. It's so hard to explain, but this is so eloquently said by you and I think that. Combined with what from what I understand, pathogen avoidance of how we've evolved to be creeped out and fascinated by something that looks human but doesn't quite move like a human, because that means it's sick or dead or diseased. And don't fuck it.


So there's this recoiling of I mean, people when they see a doll or a clown or there's like there's like a terror, even though we know it's a doll, the fact that we're afraid of dolls is wild when you think about it.


Yeah, I find dolls very creepy myself. Yes. There's a biological basis for that, I think. Yeah. You know, and I just always wonder, like, the difference between nature and nurture, what's nature and what's nurture is my obsession in life and. I always wonder if that's like because little girls carry them around and we're not allowed to look at little girls, like there's just so much drama around dolls and humans.


I remember when I was a kid and I'm a lot older, so I remember going back to the 60s. There was a science fiction movie that I saw when I was maybe five years old. I'll never forget. It was so frightening and so creepy. It was called something like Invaders from Mars and basically was these invaders from Mars. They landed on Earth and took place in the desert and their ship went underground. And it started off with this little boy who was like my age was like six years old.


And suddenly he noticed that his father was not acting like his father. He was really cold and distant and robotic and unloving at a totally free time.


And he was really worried and scared by it. And then one day he followed his father out of the house and he walked into the desert and the sands and he disappeared into the sand. And the boy kind of follows him there. And he sees these hideous Martians operating on people and like doing something and putting a little thing in the back of their neck like like Frankenstein had. And to transformed. That was kind of like that movie Invasion of the Body.


Yeah, right. So that's kind of a robotic thing where people like I think children feel that way sometimes about their parents and, you know, like their behavior is almost robotic.


They can understand that they're not they're not responding in a very human way to things.


Making me think of something that's such a weird tangent, which is because it made me think, oh, gosh, maybe that's why I'm so afraid of drunk people. You know, they get robbed. They get like robotic and weird. And that it made me think of zombies and our fear of zombies. And I was reading something about how zombie movies essentially capitalize on our fear of homeless people.


Well, and like in the eighties, all those movies about single white female, the hand that rocks the cradle, the fear of women moving into the workforce, there were all these horror movies written by men basically about, you know, what was it, though? Yeah. That not indecent proposal. What was the one with Demi Moore where she, like, made Michael Douglas fuck her? She like women and we're CEOs and they were villains.


What does that discloser it was like Demi Moore always played these CEOs in the workplace and and there was a lot of babysitters killing babies because the mom went to work.


And the biggest fear was a babysitter. You know, I'm just sort of like fascinated. And I I was thinking about this over the weekend. Like, we are so afraid of homeless people. There's a homeless problem in L.A. is getting worse. And I just think about it. And I'm like, what are we so afraid of? It's because there are people that have nothing to lose. I'm obsessed with the next door app or the next door. Yeah, yeah, yeah.


It's pretty a case where I gleaned a lot of this from you, I bet, because, yeah, you're basically just seeing the most carnal side of people's fears. Yeah. Of like and I would say 80 percent of my next door is people complaining about homeless people. It is consuming their amygdala, so activated is consuming so much of their mental energy in space and so much of what your work is about is embracing the dark side of human nature so you can and accepting that people behave irrationally so that you don't use up a ton of your bandwidth trying to figure people out.


Yeah, I remember once years ago I was in you tell me my stories are too boring.


I've so I am so fascinated by the fact that you are worried. You've said it like three times that you might be more.


Well, I don't know. You're a comedian. I don't know if your podcast I'm like bringing the wrong energy here.


And this is no, this is a there's no such thing as the wrong energy. Right. I what I started podcasting.


I didn't want to do it because I was so insecure that I wasn't going to be funny all the time. But there's nothing worse than someone trying to be funny, forcing funny when there's no audience. Yeah. So this is a different medium.


OK, well anyway, I remember I was like because you're also like statistically the most interesting person, so it's just so fat.


Which is probably why you're so interesting is because you think you're boring so you work harder, but it's just wild to me. OK.


I would be like, yeah, no, I just reason enough. I was in Nicaragua about some 30 years ago for a job. Um, and it's very weird, interesting place. They just had this massive earthquake a few years ago in the whole city had been devastated. So it was like returning to what the world was like thousands of years ago. And I was I remember experience that I've never forgotten. I was like in a post office or something.


And this young man entered who was clearly crazy.


Something was, you know, like he could be violent. And it was really strange energy. And the people there, they responded to him like he was a human being. And they talked to him and they they calmed him down and they didn't get all defensive or angry and he just kind of relaxed in front of them. Right.


And so I was like, wow, you know, a lot of our problem is social. We make people feel ostracized. We make people feel awful. And here was a very human response to someone who was very alienated socially. And the solution was to make him feel more comfortable in that environment. And it worked. And I've never forgotten that that episode that always that is so fascinating to me.


And it makes me think that the FBI gets all their tactics from you. But I'm sure they did. I mean, I know they do. I mean, I know I know.


Gavin de Beckers read a lot of my book. Yes. Yes. To me, Gavin Dibakar, who we talk about on this podcast, because the gift of fear that your body knows everything about everyone. And we just especially as women, because we've been told we're crazy and psycho, that we just dismiss our own gut and intuition. But that makes me think of the FBI, the tactics of getting criminals to admit to killing people as they just empathize with them.


Yeah, they just say, like, well, your brother slept with your your best friends with your sister. Like, did that upset you?


That would have pissed me off. Like, how could he do that? Right.


And they go, yeah, I know. That's why I killed them. It's like, well, that was easy. All you had to do was side with the person you're trying to get.


Right. You just have to side with them.


And it's like in all the conflict that we're in, I mean, when I go on Twitter, when I see what's going on with this country being torn apart, it's so incendiary for me to say to someone I disagree with politically. Like, I see why you think that, like people that are the abortion debate. It's like I both they're both right. Because you both think you're saving someone's life. It's like you're both right.


Right. So it's like when someone's like, I can't believe this person is pro-life. I'm like, well, they think they're saving a baby, right?


Of course. How can you think you would do the same thing? I would love to point out that better health has shortened their ad significantly because we never read it. It's literally like seven lines now.


Can we just say what the fuck ever just say, excuse me, what the this ad can you please do a screen grab of this so the audience sees what we see?


I, I do think the audience should see what the copy is that we get so much we bring to it.


So you see how real we are about this. Therapy is something that I'm so torn about in terms of talking about it, because it always feels very elitist to me because it's it is too expensive as it is. And who has time to drive? It's three hours door to door. By the time you get there and you park and you're there and then they leave and then you're if I lived in my home town, I have to move states to go to a therapist.


Yeah, I. But now a better help. Better help. It's online. I can start communicating and under 40 hour democratization of therapy happen.


It's world wide, world wide world. Remember that song. Oh God.


I'm not a crisis line. It's not self-help. It's professional counseling done securely online. The service is available for clients worldwide, worldwide. You can log into your account any time. Send a message to your counselor.


This is the key to serenity. I think it's like when I feel frustrated, jealous when I'm in pain, when I'm restless, irritable and you're a white tent, you're just describing my personality.


I thought, right now I want to take an action. I want to send that text. I want to send that email. I want to call that person. I want to, you know, do something reckless when you could just log on to better help. That's what I'm saying. Start living your happier life today.


Do it to your better help, counsel. Yeah. You don't make a big mess at your job and get fired.


You're right. They should because you wrote per my last email. That's passive aggressive.


You're better still appropriate. Dotcom therapist will tell you that visit.


But let us respond back with permanency. I'm not available right now. They would never do that, though, because I have either. One hundred forty eight hours is a better help. Dot com slash Whitney. That's better help and join the over one million people taking charge of their mental health with the help of professional. In fact, so many people have been using better help that they are recruiting additional counselors in all 50 states. Special offers. Good for you listeners.


Get ten percent off your first month of better help dot com slash Whitney. This podcast is brought to you by woop, woop, woop, woop, woop, I say woop. I should swap, so you guys have probably seen me wearing this very, like, elegant, how would you describe this?


It's a variation, my fashion bag. It's a stylish space bracelet, but it's like it's a space bracelet.


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It's the it's the mind of a trainer and a nutritionist on your wrist and like a coach and a cheerleader. I feel like I don't even need to get married now that I have a opened. This is basically a husband, yeah, but it tells me how I slept, it tells me how my day has been, tells me to rely, only want to talk to electronics in my life.


Really like I'm not even joking. Like, why get married when you can just get a woop?


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Well, not sure what a band is. It's a space bracelet.


We just told them it's a space bracelet, but it's a fitness wearable that. Does that help? It didn't help me at all.


Space that was more helpful. It's a band that you wear around your wrist and it tracks your heart rate, your sleep patterns, your heart variables. It tracks all the stuff to let you know, like how how well you're working out, how good, how well you're working out, how often if you're if you're doing better than the last time, if you need to rest more, what time you go to bed. And it also the cool thing about it.


So when you go to sleep it actually tells you, like when you're awake, it tells you when you're in light sleep, when you're in REM, sleep when you're in slow wave sleep.


I know that I blogged about this last podcast, but like I it it really changed my life because it helped me realize that, like, I sleep better than I thought I did because I you know what I mean? Because I thought what I was like dreaming. I just had this thing that I like. I sleep restlessly. I'm up, I'm down. I can't fall asleep like and that's what was making me not be able to sleep. And that was what was making me think I was tired.


I know I sound insane saying this now I know what you're saying, but the proof is in the pudding is I felt the same way about the calorie part.


I was like, I'm never burning any calories. Then I would to be another.


And so, you know, it helps if it's taking the stairs back, like taking the stairs or walking from the furthest parking spot did make a difference in my little band, Nelsonville, built in diary where you track if you have an argument, anything that increases because you don't have to wonder, how does that work out?


How is my sleep like it just tells, you know, and then you can move on with your day and live your life and it tells, you know, optimal.


It's really helping me like, be optimal.


It tells you I'm Joe Rogan Sho and I feel like Joe Rogan wearing a cool band.


Dagobah never talk over his guest.


You're not my guest in this house. I am. Well, I don't know to tell you like it. So we are doing these ads because it's like I don't it feel the more we talk about it, the more it sounds like you just get it. Yeah. By it would be so silly not to get it. This would not getting open would be like not getting the vaccine or like not getting it just like it's going to be firming your hair.


You got to do it once.


I'm just saying it's like it's going to be as essential as, like your phone at some point, you know, and it is connected to your phone.


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A dating app thing. So I can see people, the guys metrics that I'm dating people are not science projects.


You have to stop that. You love octopuses. Um, I'm fascinated by them to. Really?


Yeah, well, from my new book, kind of researching about strange phenomenon with animals, because I have always had this feeling like if we could somehow, you know, like the duck to do little things, we could enter their brains and see their world.


It would be insanely, you know, just be the most amazing experience of all.


I'm going to say something a little crazy. It's going to sound crazy.


Kruse's it anything you said before, if even for me in this conversation, I can help you with this. Really? Hmm. Like I can add value to you in this book. Really I, I can only communicate with animals. Oh well me too. I can't live. Humans are some nightmare.


Oh yeah. I want to hear more about this.


OK, well anyway so anyway anyway um so I was reading a book about, uh called Aliens that was trying to say. Is there life out there on other planets and what would life like that be like on other planets? You know, because our natural tendency as humans is to anthropomorphize everything so we can only imagine aliens walking on two legs, talking like us and all this other stuff. But they're not they're going to be completely different.


And in this book, there was some octopuses written by a very famous neuroscientist, English neuroscientist that somebody told me about. It's like the most brilliant neuroscientists around now. And his theory was that octopuses give us a clue to how a different form of consciousness could be. He's not saying that this is exactly what alien life would be like, but it could be like this. And I got really interested in it. And so I started reading some very detailed books about octopuses, their psychology, their physiology, and it's absolutely mind blowing.


Another word I hate, but it's true. It's unbelievable.


There's a movie out now that I have not seen called My Octopus Teacher about a man that is best friends with an octopus and visited it every day. Oh, it's supposed to be unbelievable. And it's all underwater. Him and his octopus. Oh, it's like a documentary. Yeah. They had like a friendship. It was him and his octopus. Yeah. And the whole movie is about them being best friends.


Well, yeah, there's a lot of stories like that. We would go down and knew him. Oh yeah. Yeah. It would come back to him and they were together basically. What's it called. My octopus team.


Are you going to are you going to email me all the things that we've talked about. You can remember them. Yes. OK, I promise. All right.


There was an octopus. There was an octopus octopi that were being shipped to some octopi or octopus.


I don't know. I don't know either. They were gone. I think octopi sounds weird, doesn't it?


Plural for octopus is OK, plural for octopus is octopuses. That's what I thought. It just sounds unta to s..


I know, like I said when you said it was like Octopussy that but that movie, I just was like I was uncomfortable, so I panicked.


Anyway, I wanted to take some, but my fear is they only live three to five years.


That's the weirdest thing about them. Yes, so there was a book called The Soul of an Octopus, a pretty famous book, it's good. It's not the best, but it's pretty good. Can't wait. And. She this woman, Sy Montgomery, she kind of spent a lot of time with octopuses and she would bond with them, they would die.


Oh, and, you know, and the bond that you have with them is very weird because there's something uncanny to use that word again about them. So do you know a lot about octopuses, but not as much as you.


But I can hang I can do this conversation. OK, well, not scared.


Well, like primates, obviously we're related to and we branched off from them fairly recently in history. But the branching off point with octopuses is literally about six hundred million years ago. It's it's incredibly early on. Right. We have very, very little in common with them. Right. Neurologically, etc. Our eyes are kind of similar to that to theirs. They're structured similarly, but everything else is different. They're invertebrates, right? So they have no skeleton, which is why they can go crawl into small spaces.


They have their brain is in their arm. Their brain is in their arm. They have three hearts. The blood that they pump is this weird kind of Greengold substance that they don't find in other animals there. They can literally see with their tentacles. Right? They have. So can you imagine seeing through their skin you could literally see through your arm. You can also taste with your arm.


It's unbelievable the fact that we eat them as criminal. Oh, it's disgusting. After reading this, you can never eat them again. I used to eat them too. I would never do that again. They're not even I don't even think they're good.


I was like, this is just a robbery. It just feels like you're eating skin. You're eating. It feels like cannibalism to me.


Yeah, well, it's like almost like eating a cat or a dog would be a similar thing because they're so smart and so sensitive.


Or pig or pig. Yeah. Mm hm. I have a pig. Once you have a pig, it's very hard to pig here. Back not here. He's in Texas now.


Wow. Yeah. Like a little potbelly pig.


And he said, well, all pigs are big, but I learn because there's this teacup pig trade. So if you've seen like a teacup pig, two, three pound pig, it's very trendy thing on Instagram. People have these little pigs. There's no such thing. That's just a starved regular pig. Oh, terrible. Yeah. So pigs are never going to be under two hundred pounds. So any time you seem smaller than that, that just means they're starved.


So I rescued this pig during the Wolseley fires a couple of years ago and it was a starved pig from that, like an Instagram pig, like a breeder pig and got him. And so his growth was stunted and his legs were bent and he had all these problems.


But they're so emotional. Oh, I'm sure. And they're so vocal and they get jealous and they get horses, get jealous. Do they get jealous? I didn't know that about horses. They get yeah. Horses get very jealous. I mean, it depends on if you're the lead mare or if you're whatever. But jealous is a big thing with horses.


Well, horses are incredibly violent. Also, a lot of people don't know this about horses, but wild horses so that all the horse, wild horses, all the horses we've seen are broken.


Right. Right. So it's like they say you break a horse, you break their spirit. So any horse that we see that's being ridden or pulling carriages and stuff, they have surrendered and they don't think they have any other options. So they're basically just zombies. It's very rare that most of us see like an awake horse, awake horses, the way that they communicate with you and show that they like you as they mimic you.


Really? Wow. I thought I knew horses that I didn't I don't know anything about compared to you.


And their eyesight is really fascinating to the way that they see and the and they're incredibly psychic. I mean, horses that I know horses are mirrors, you know, their prey animals. So they can you know, there's these amazing stories of, you know, a horse that they tried to drag under a bridge and it wouldn't go under a bridge for two days. And then, you know, a day later, the bridge collapsed, you know?


I wonder where that comes from. I mean, their prey animals are octopi, pusser's, very pugnacious or.


No, no. No octopus is the thing about octopuses is that they're very vulnerable.


They have they got rid of their shell, you know, millions and millions of years ago.


So that's why they don't live very long, very vulnerable. They have no defense. And for their defense, that's how they developed their incredible propulsion ability underwater and their camouflage skills. Yes, but, um.


Oh, no. So they're not very violent now. But they're very clever and manipulative and, you know, they can do things like the greatest escaping.


So that's my horse. We see we can lie down together. Oh, that is so sweet. Yes. You know that.


That's my liberty trainer. But we do that. It didn't look like. Yeah, no.


Well, you are a shape shifter. I mean, looks is.


No. Yeah, I went to her Instagram, but when I can find the picture of me doing it, I don't want to waste your time.


Oh, full of horses.


Not cool. So whatever is going on with you is going on with the horse. So if you can be sure, if you can get to a place where you can get the horse to not feel any danger or threats or fears, it means you're in, you're out of here.


You like a horse was fight or flight.


It's I grew up around horses and they were my best friends because they were the only communication I understood. They were the only time I wasn't the only time. Not confused as around animals because they're so direct and they have honest communication. They don't pretend and they know the same way. They don't wear masks and they don't want you to wear one either, because if your need anything from a horse, if you're scared of it, they they just are like there's a mountain lion close by.


Yeah. Because they don't want you to be scared of it. So your fear to them is perceived as danger. So they just wanna get away from you.




And any kind of it made me realize that needing a picture with it or needing to pet it or needing to touch it all, that's so repellent to them because it all just boils down fear the.


And it took me like it blew my mind, the dumbest tamed horses aren't like the wheel. They're broken. Yeah, they have. They don't they don't think they have any choice.


So if a horse truly has a choice, they will do that. I see. So if if an unbroken horse wants to be near you, that's the greatest compliment you can get.


Oh, wow.


So sometimes even now, if I go in there with my shitty energy and if he just walks to the other side, I'm like, got it. I'm still thinking about the guy that cut me off in traffic. I'm still thinking that I'm falling to the earth like I'm not good enough. I feel fat today or ugly or I just disparaged my I got it or I need a selfie. I need to put this on Instagram. And he's like, bye bitch.


Fucking buy clean your shit up and then we'll hang out. Yeah.


You know, so it's just he's my. His shoes have like a long term relationship with the horse. I do. I mean, he's my. Soul mate, yeah, what's his name? King, King. Well, his name is King of Diamonds when he was a show horse. And I hate that show horse thing and I hate the name of that. But I just thought, let me keep king, because what they say is name a horse, what the horse needs.


So when Abused Horse comes in, you know, like a name is important.


Because it's going to change the way you so you say his name is King, so I get more regal right away and I treat him more regally because his name is King.


So if you have a violent horse, you want to name them cutie pie.


If you have an insecure horse, you name him King.


Can you do that with people that you'd like to help lead their energy into what they need? So we make this mistake of naming pit bulls fang.


I mean, and then we all think it's more violent than it is because we just and then we project that onto them when we cast them in that role and then they start. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Yeah.


So they say the way you talk to so you never say to a horse I learned and you shouldn't do this with people either.


Love like I'll go like you're so pushy, like who's in it and then who would talk to a horse like it's your bad boy like any of that.


You're just training them to be a bad boy. Oh, I see. You know, so I had to change the vernacular I used with him because he was insecure and would be physically too close to me because they are always testing you. Yeah. They want to know if you're going to stand up for yourself.


Another book is your third book. Crazy Horse lady. No, no, no. Things that you've learned from horses, and that's not the title, believe me, but would be really interesting, your relationship to animals and what they've done for you, what they've other things you've learned, because they made me learn that when you draw boundaries and you stand up for yourself, you don't repel them.


They don't abandon you.


They just respect you more if they don't go away. Yeah.


And I thought if you had self-respect, it was the other person feel rejected, because when you grow up around narcissists, they take your self care as a rejection. Right. So they go away.


So but with horses, they want you to stand up for them. They want you to be regal. They want you to be royal, because then they feel safe. They go, OK, I don't have to worry about you.


Well. Yeah, it's amazing. Are there aliens, are there aliens? Well, according to this book. That is a big, obviously huge debate about that, and most people a lot of people think obviously with the number of of planets out there that are habitable, the odds are that there is definitely life out there. But is it conscious life? Is it organized civilizations out there?


I mean, half of us aren't conscious. Yeah, that's true. But, you know, is there like a civilized a space traveling alien out there? And that seems not maybe so likely. The other thing is the distances are so great from any planet that would be habitable that to get here would take like hundreds or thousands of years.


So if any alien life encounters, it would probably be synthetic, would be like robots, right?


Yes, Vincent. Yeah. Yeah. Because obviously they can, you know, go on forever. And that's how we would probably have to end up traveling through space. But the other thing is, if you read, which is part of my new book, the circumstances that led to the formation of life on Earth and then from simple organisms to complex organisms to prime to animals, to mammals, to primates, it was so unlikely, such a chain of circumstances.


It almost makes you believe in God.


It's so unlikely, you know, an asteroid hitting Earth 90 million years ago and wiping out the dinosaurs and that asteroid almost missed the missed us. Right. And if it hadn't, dinosaurs would still be wrong with dominating the planet. Right.


So you have to have a word for it. I can't remember what it is, but there's so many barriers that you have to go through to get to any kind of civilized life form. It's conscious that for that to happen on another planet seems unlikely.


But considering the number, the sheer number of planets out there, maybe there is a couple or a few that do have that.


But there would be so far away and it would take so much, you know, some kind of technology we've never heard of before to get to us to reach us. So it's a little bit disappointing to read that. But, you know, they've discovered that there's probably life right now on Venus, some form of life form on Venus and on some of the moons of Jupiter, et cetera. So there is like very primitive life forms out there. We already pretty much know that.


And probably on Mars there was at one point.


But, um, there's an ongoing conversation on this podcast about such fetishes. That's amazing. That's amazing. Yeah.


Do you write screenplays or anything like that or fiction or anything?


Um, sometimes.


Wow, I used to be able to do that myself, but I kind of lost it just to be like just associations that are so free have no fucking idea where they come from.


Stream of consciousness. Yeah. So what about foot fetishes. Do I have one.


So foot fetish as my feet do very well on the Internet. They do very well. I know they're covered. Um. Is it I think Freud said it's because toes look like dicks. I never heard that right. I think I might have just made that up.


If you did look like it anyway, if you don't know if you can't corroborate it, it's probably not true. I either dreamt this or read this somewhere or thought of this that.


How did you go from aliens? Because I was thinking about êtes fingers and that's what my toes look like. And then I went, Oh, I have to ask him about foot fetish.


OK, OK. Because he's right. All right. Mystery solved. He's a man.


He's a master of what happened in the first couple of years of your life governing the rest of your life.


Yeah, there is a theory that babies crawling, wanting their mother, they see the mom's feet. I think that I just I just made that up and I think I'm trying to pretend like I read that somewhere, but that is just the theory I have that babies are trying to get to their moms are are and the feed is all they can reach. But then why would just some people have that and why only some people, moms were barefoot? OK, I'm just not your next book.


Stick to animals, please.


And co-dependency.


Anyway, um, what's the foot like? Fetishes like?


We talked with a neuroscientist a couple of weeks ago about the neuroscience of fetishes, but is there any kind of is that interest you at all?


Yeah, um. It's like you have sexual energy that's charged for something that represents something else. Um, I mean, somewhere in the back in the dust bins of my brain, I've read some interesting things about foot foot fetishes, but I don't know if I can remember that your brain knows it's not worth the real estate.


Your brain knew to delete that trash, but you like at a very early age, some body part or piece of clothing or, you know, because there are other fetishes besides feet. Uh. Write something in your early early childhood became charged with sexual energy, with libido, libidinal energy, and you never overcame it. And so that body part stands for something else. I mean, it's all I can.


So in digging, digging, digging, but I'm not finding of mine.


Hunter. Did you watch mine? Hunter you might like it. It's David Fincher. Oh yeah. The greatest. So David Fincher made a TV show about serial killers, about all the famous serial killers and about the guys in the 60s or 70s who were the part of the CIA who started studying serial killers and interviewing them in prison. And it's all the serial killers admitting why they did it. And it's kind of an exploration of their moms and them needing pantyhose and heels to jerk off.


And it was like it's very much about and of course, it's David Fincher. So it's visual Shakespeare. I mean, it's like everything means something.


I mean, and this is something that I've never shared before. I going to get in trouble for my fetish. I heard I don't think I have fetishes like I do. I do have a little bit of yeah, I don't watch porn and I don't like what I watch it. I don't get turned on. I get I think it's I get so distracted by making jokes and observing and going after a joke about this, like I can't really get lost and stuff like that.


But I do think porn is probably going to be the next generation in sort of giving fetishes and stuff. I mean, I feel like computers are now our fetish.


This is what turns me on getting on my computer and Googling something. You know, this is our fetish now. This is my foot fetish.


Yeah, but you don't have sexualized interest in your view?


As far as I know, I think it's probably in the US and this could be my birth control, because when women are birth control, we smell pheromones differently. Right. So we're our body thinks it's pregnant. So we are attracted to a more like Alpha, quote unquote, man. But I definitely, I think, fetishize like tattoos. I'm definitely and I don't know if it's just my brain going like, oh, risk. He takes risks.


He's dangerous. He can protect my future offspring. I might just be that all, really. But I do think tattoos are like, oh really?


Oh, OK.


But I don't know if that's a fetish or if that's just a primordial. I think it's coming closer to it.


I think that's. Yeah.


Like he's I think the thing about women and their because it's men who have foot fetishes, not women. Exactly. Not that I know.


I think looking at your foot, I think it has to do with kind of the delicacy and it represents kind of femininity and mine.


Huh. There's nothing delicate about my views. Well, are there men that have fetishized your foot? There are on the Internet, but I think it sort of isn't it also part of the humiliation of your humiliating like it's I only deserve your disgusting feet now that now we're going somewhere.


I can't answer. I have no idea. Like, there are some kind of that. It's more like masochism.


Interesting or like. Yeah, being wanting to be degraded, insulted. I get fascinated by the there was this amazing article that actually my one of my best friends from college wrote about this dominatrix and she gets hired to humiliate men in public in front of people. How does she do that? It's she takes them out in public and like them wanted. Yeah. Powerful men, huh? And they get off on. Yeah, I mean, it's a yeah, we're good.


Hey, guys, I guess they're their moms just, you know, had too much Rosie and fifties.


I once went on back in the day with the art of seduction. Do you know who Susan Bloch is? No. Oh, good, I'm glad you don't. Oh, she's like a sex I don't know what you could call her, like a dominatrix or a sex.


Dr. Susan Bloch is an American sex therapist, author, filmmaker.


I have heard of this person, but yes, she was a big fan of my books and she would have me on her, quote unquote, show back in the day.


Wow. On HBO. Yeah.


And you would sit on her couch and she would have like penis pillows and vagina pillows and everything was any way she brought on as a guest for my for my entertainment, a dominatrix named Power.


And this dominatrix was inspired by the 48 laws of power and was like sort of using some of the tricks in the psychology and it on her clients. And she brought her in. And it was just it was very kind of off-putting to me. I was really like turned off, if you could be so turned off. But she was clad in this, like all black leather, shiny black latex outfit.


And she had like a man in the audience who wanted to be humiliated. And she sort of demonstrated her technique in front of us all. I was so horrified because all all I see is like desperation and sadness. Yeah, that's all I really say. The last thing I'm going to do, we get into this.


Can we get out of it like we entered the door with. No.


Did you have fun? You did it again, I'm curious. Of course I had fun. Really? Are you insecure? Yes. Yeah, had fun. Well, I mean, I don't know what fun is this supposed to this isn't really supposed to be fun, I guess, like, yeah, I'm very entertained and very impressed. And you have so much energy. You have mental energy.


I can't keep up with you all areas. I am very intense about my economy of energy. I save a lot of it.


And you drink highball?


Yeah, I'm drinking for caffeine drinks. I also like I before I do a podcast, especially someone like you, I won't talk to anyone for like twenty four hours.


Really. Yeah that's good. Yeah.


And I like won't look a computer like I'll deprive myself. Deprive myself so that I think. Yeah. Yeah. No I had a lot of fun. Thank you. Can I ask why? Because the fans will just, I think, really appreciate the art of seduction, the absence and presence.


It's the whole game. All of it. It's like a dance between those two things. Most people, particularly nowadays, only know presence because that's what they're trained and social media, et cetera, that you always have to be out there in front of people and and kind of in their face and getting their attention. And they don't know about absence. And you have to learn the fact that creating absence is what creates the fantasizing part of the human brain.


Right. So if you're continually present someone, you're always overwhelming them with text messages, phone calls, visits, etc. They don't have any space or room to imagine who you are, to idealize you in some way to think about you when you're not there, you're suffocating them with their attention and you need to give them space so that they can have some element of mystery. Now, you'll think people out there will think, well, that's so manipulative.


You shouldn't. You just be yourself if you want to just talk to people and you just talk to them. Well, yeah, you can do that. But you're also getting in the process, going to be putting them off. You are also not going to be creating any kind of magic. And if you want someone to be to have that kind of effect of starting to love you or to feel some intensity where you're penetrating their psychological defenses, you need to be able to stand back and give them some room.


So if you don't, in a very basic level, if you don't text them for three or four days, suddenly their mind starts to go into overdrive.


Think about you more when they don't see you. Yeah. And they're thinking, well, what's going on? Is she really that interested in me? Maybe she's seeing somebody else or maybe I said something wrong. And then then you start wondering all sorts of things about her. And the moment the other person is thinking about you, the seduction process is beginning.


They're going to start to idealize you. You know, I have the thing in there that comes from the great writer Stendhal. It's a crystallisation process. It's like something that's starting to crystallize. All these little crystals are forming and they're creating this kind of which will turn into an engagement ring eventually.


Yeah, that crystal will turn into a diamond just if you just make yourself mysterious. But then if you're always absent, that doesn't have any proper effect either.


That has you know, that can also lead to other kinds of problems. Like someone will start forgetting about you. They'll move on someone else you won't. So it's a it's a balance between those two. And, you know, it's the classic women used to be really good at that. They used to is the classic thing of hard to get home. And the woman who was hard to get would be the one that would make men go crazy.


And your value goes up if you're not ubiquitous because men have a kind of hunting and they want to chase. Right. And so if you make them chase, you're exciting them and you're creating that your price goes up for sure.




So the more of something there is, the less it costs, like diminishing marginal returns, like in economics. Right. You know, why can't we just apply that?


Yeah. So, um, but I think it's something that's lost today that people don't know how to step back and don't know how to create a little bit of mystery and and mystery is something that people miss in life. You know, I think they miss kind of fantasy and enchantment, guessing, guessing, but also like drama, some drama.


Everything is so familiar in Vanel and, you know, like, predictable, predictable. There's no theater. So think of seduction or courtship as kind of like two birds going through a mating dance and they're courting each other. And it's this elaborate, beautiful dance that happens all the time in nature. Well, we're doing the same thing. It's a little bit more psychological with us. It's not completely physiological, but we're creating this little kind of interesting dance.


And people want theater in their life.


They want to be taken out of their humdrum, boring day to day existence. And falling in love or having a love affair is sometimes the most dramatic thing that can happen to you. And so you're not just being manipulative. You're actually entertaining people and giving them what they want most desperately because you don't get it in real life. All are fantasizing in our culture isn't television is in imagery is out there and we're not experiencing it. Right. We have a deficit of experiencing these things in our own lives.


We live vicariously through all these programs, et cetera, but we want to experience that ourselves. So the lack of seduction going on is actually problematic to me.


Because it's like people who are missing a sort of enchanting fantasy process in life and you're not giving it to them, so never feel guilty about the fact that you're creating that distance thing because you're actually you're actually entertaining people. You're actually giving them what they secretly want.


And you're making me realize like what I say with when you train dogs to do tricks, if you're like, that's mean. You shouldn't do that. No, it's for them because then they get to feel pride. So I feel like when you do this a little bit, you're making yourself of more value to them. So when they get you, they get to feel like they got you.


So you're actually giving them esteem, right? It's not mean. It's actually then they get to be like, I got this thing that's hard to get right. I must be pretty great. Right. They got to earn you right.


And people want to earn. I don't think people want things for free. No, they don't.


You're a big deal. Do you know that? I'm just curious. You're very important. You're. A very big deal. I don't want to know, I just yeah, I don't think you should. You know what? You probably shouldn't just tell me I'm a piece of shit. Yeah, I guess you want me to humiliate you. I knew it. You are a masochist. You are that guy that wants to be humiliated. You are slipped out.


He just revealed yourself. But I think it's good. I mean, you probably shouldn't know the impact you've had on people.


It would probably be stressful to know you should stay.


Well, it's a good thought to have you know that. You know that when you die that, you know, it wasn't all for naught, that you had a positive effect.


But I don't think you're going to die ever. I think we're going to make it so you don't die. We're going to download your brain. We're going to upload it.


I'm into Dropbox or something, just like the Matrix. We can't yet know.


Yes, I'm on it. And our lifetime, apparently, we will live to 150, 110.


But will the planet still be here? It's not going to be great.


We'll probably be in a bunker. OK, it's my guess will be at the Greenbrier or something.


Or it'll be like Idiocracy. Yeah. Yeah.


It's not going to be great, but your your brain must live on. OK, well, I'm very flattered. Thank you. When the octopuses are running the world.


Well, if we confuse my brain with an octopus, that's what we're gonna do.


Yeah, like, um, what was the movie? No, there was a Belial what is the little thing that was um.


But yes, I can't believe you guys separate secret language. So, yes, there's a movie called Bisquick Sisters. I'm like your dad, he's your brother.


And I believe he was like a head and a basket, his deformed twin from inside.


They were like Siamese twins. And it's just ahead. Yeah, it's a great movie. It's a it's like a good, bad, crazy horror movie.


When did it come out? He was in the 70s. Oh, obviously this.


And he carried around his twin bed with him. Right.


He's got these, like, hands that stick out. Yeah. He's like an octopus kind of.


And we can just get we can make a belly belial of Robert and and I was like the head in big trouble in little China floats around.


Oh, OK. I hope you'll do this again.


Do it again this year when Sjoblom comes out.


Yes, definitely. Or you can you have you know, probably with this like. No, I'm good. I need to recover. Yeah. You have years to heal from this trauma.


Whatever you want, whenever you're sufficiently bored, you have no no other guests or took ten years. It did to do this I think more like six or seven.


That's fair. You're right, I wrong, sure. Well, I'm really glad we made it happen. Thank you. I thought for some reason you were avoiding me early on. You know, I might have been. I've been I'm very scared of you, like I'm very I wanted to do when I was ready, OK? And what's so ironic that word is that I screwed up because I keep a paper calendar. I write everything down on a piece of paper, and I I'm going to show in my calendar.


I put you down for next Wednesday by accident because I do all my scheduling myself and I'm, as I said, dyslexic. And I put you down for next Wednesday. And yesterday, Jack and I were talking music. Osofsky Tomorrow's a great no no. It's next Wednesday. Like I needed I was that the whole week I was going to prepare for you. And then I was like, I guess we're going to just do it tomorrow. Oh, it's just I was.


Unprepared today, and that was probably the best version of that. OK, if I prepared to for a week, it would have been bad. You're not afraid of me anymore. Yeah, I am really. OK. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, I know, I yeah, I'm not going to lie to you. I'm terrified. I'm terrified of you.


I wouldn't you be. Yes.


Yes am. But you're still here, I guess.


I mean, you're terrifying and you're you're basically a homeless person to me. Like you're like the smartest someone that is like that smart ass. It's like it's because I can't. Beguile you, I know that I can't manipulate or you'll know all my tricks. There's some truth to that. You can't see right through you, that's it, like you can't play the master. You wrote the playbook. I can't fool you with the tricks you taught me.


Yeah, there's truth to this, but there's something relaxing about it because I can just. Yeah, I can put all the weapons down. You certainly have become more relaxed. Yeah, OK, well, that's good. The low blood sugar probably tell me, are you. I'm starting to need to hashtag. Yeah, thank you. I always had these very awkwardly, but this is awkward as it gets. I got something to say about awkward separations.


Yeah, I know my separation anxiety is kicking in because I feel like the best thing I can do is create mystery and distance right now. Absents artful, artful, conscious absence. OK. So that you can project to me your idea here like I do. OK. Don't ride elephants. That's how I sign-off don't ride elephants.


Because cruel about camels. I don't know that I I mean, I don't know that much about camels, but it is abuse. Yes, of course it is. Yes, because I rode a camel once. Yeah, I wrote an elephant once. You did? Oh. So after every podcast I say don't write.


It's OK to admit you made a mistake if you didn't know.


I didn't know. Yeah, I didn't know. I've never been an elephant.


And I look back and there's a picture of me on an elephant and I now see the chains around its feet. Oh, that is awful. Yeah.


Any time you're on an animal, it's a touching apex predator holding a lion or tiger cub or any of that. That's all abused and they all die within six months and the mother is always killed. You imagine what has to happen to a lion, mom.


For tourists to be holding its baby, oh, yeah, and then they are not able to get their mother's breast milk because of it, so they are not able to develop properly. So they. Yeah. So I'll show you this place. I work with lions and tigers and bears, which is like one of the only GFR accredited, like real sanctuaries. A lot of sanctuaries are abusive. Yeah. Humans are so cruel. They're wild, they're wild and.


Yeah. So don't ride elephants. I won't not tell it to them.


OK, don't ride. I'm just I was look Falciani looking at the camera so I just looked at you back and I said don't ride.


Elephants are touched off and you don't go to zoos. OK. Yeah. Bye bye bye.