The part Kenny show on news talk with Marter private network during current restrictions. Don't ignore your health concerns. Our expert team is ready to help. A new bill from the Department of Housing is set to allow the government to directly transfer public land to the land development agency. The proposed legislation is designed to prevent councillors from blocking the sale of housing developments.

To tell us more. The Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Dan O'Brien, is on the line.

Minister, good morning. Good morning, Pat. How are you?

Very well, thank you. Now, tell me this. Was there much of this going on, that housing land, which was in the gift of councillors, was being blocked for transfer? And why would they do it?

I think it's just one element of the bill. The main piece is obviously to make sure that the land development agency is set up on a legislative footing. It's important that the state actually, you know, uses its land appropriately and productively. I think most people agree that we should have a land management agency. So we need to give it the powers to do its job by bringing the legislation forward, which I hope to have that all the week after next will mean that we can then capitalize the land development agency to the tune of one point twenty five billion.

It has 11 sites at the moment that it's starting to develop was particularly Chandana Castle, which will be the first one that that they will deliver and will have a big role in delivering a cost rental, which I might talk about later. One aspect of that I do expect the interaction between the land development agency and local authorities will be based on a collaborative arrangement and actually has been up to now. So I don't expect there to be conflict into the future.

What I've done is have a provision. There are two provisions. One is that the LDA will get first refusal on the sale of public land. And I think, again, most people would agree that that is the right thing to do. So where any state agency is selling land that the land development agency would have first call on it. The other provision you refer to relates to what's called Section 183, whereby councillors consent is sought to dispose of any any lands that a council may have.

So most of the cases this won't come up where the LDA will probably be developing at the social and affordable housing fundamentally for the council and in collaboration, but in the very small few instances whereby there may be an inordinate delay on delivery. Yes, I think it's appropriate that in that instance where a chief executive of a local authority can make his or her decision in collaboration with councillors to dispose of that land directly to the land development agency land that that they can develop themselves, I would still expect on our local authorities would be delivering most of the homes anyway, but both public and affordable with what this agency is going to do is going to have a real impact in delivering affordable purchase and rental and also social homes on state owned land right across the country.

So it's a very significant piece of legislation.

It's an important just to let you know, you've got your council's building, social housing and whatever, and then the LDA comes in and lands within that council area.

It gets involved only if they're asked to bother with that.

You know, why not just let the councils use their own land to build their owners and they're going to and they're doing it.

And that's why they've been on your show discussing. Same about the build program for this year for social housing, which will be 12000, 750 social homes. And our local authorities are doing the vast bulk of them and they'll continue to do it. The Land Development Agency is more for the larger pieces of strategic land. Dundrum and Hospital there. If you look at Catalans and Balbriggan as Zangana castles, a larger strategic landholdings that the councils may not have the the ability to deliver them all on their own.

Some will, some won't. They already have 11 pieces of land and I'm encouraging them. What this legislation helps them is to get on and deliver affordable housing. And within the bill, I've also said, sorry, go ahead.

You know, I've just got to clarify, they will buy the stuff. I mean, they're not going to rub it from the councils. They're going to blow up the market, the market rate for the land.

Yeah. And look, they will be if if the land a lot of the time, the council will ask the LDA to develop the land for them and the land won't transfer. And that's fine. OK, but all of us want houses built. And, you know, we all know of significant landholdings that have been, you know, in the public eye as well that have been, you know, held up for many years for many different reasons.

And I think our public want to see us moving on and delivering homes. So, yes, they won't be taking land. Of course not. They would actually, if this was to happen, they would be paid for that land. No question. We will be looking at how that would be done in the bill. Like I will set an affordability threshold as well. I've said a minimum of 50 percent affordability and development of land. So the land price will reflect that.

So the state will actually, through me and the Department of Housing, actually provide a subvention for affordable housing there as well. So, you know, look, it's not something that people should fear. I see there's been some, you know, some reaction to it by some who who may, you know, have held up housing developments for quite some time. We're. We're in a housing crisis still, we're making progress. People want to see our land used productively and we're always talking about public housing and public land and rightly so, an affordable housing on public land.

But we've got to get on and do it. And that's why this legislation is so significant.

Now, you've announced some cost rental schemes which will deliver a few hundred cost rental. Just explain exactly how that works.

I mean, you know that normally the local authorities will actually rent out property. It remains in the ownership of the local authority. What's different about all of this?

Yeah, this is a new tenure of housing cost rental. And what it will be is put out a call just before Christmas to approve housing values, to come forward with schemes that can be delivered this year. So it's for working people, people who are above the social housing limits, who aren't on the social housing list to provide long term secure rentals at a minimum of 25 percent below market price. So the rent is set just simply the development and management and the cost effectively of running a specific development or an apartment block.

So this is something that's been done quite well in Europe, hasn't been done in Ireland to this degree, is a new form of tenure. So what I announced this morning was we'll have 440 homes this year under the cost rental model split between Dublin, the greater Dublin area and Cork areas whereby, you know, rent is still far, is still too high. And this is the start of rolling out into a rental scheme.

What that means is and obviously the costs of running the show and so on will increase gradually over the years.

But in terms with inflation, you'd imagine that your rent today at which reflects the kind of the recent construction cost of the financing and so on, eventually that rent should become relatively insignificant compared to where it started if we ever get back to inflation. Yes, I'd agree.

I think it sets a low base as well apart. And it should be, you know, a very small incremental increases on this. And the state like this council, we're putting in about 38 million into this, you know, so through our approved housing bodies were actually, you know, it's been backed by the Housing Finance Agency as well. So we're able to deliver as low financial cost and to be able to pass that on then to to the home, to the householder and the renter.

So our lower rents are reflecting the fact that we're actually able to to finance these projects at very, very low rates and low rates into the future. So it provides a secure tenure as well for working people. And I think this will be, you know, is one of three elements of the affordable bill, which I spoke to about a few weeks ago, and the affordable purchase on state owned land, the shared equity and the cost rental for people who, you know, want to rent for want around long term.

I want to have a secure rent there. And these homes will be delivered this year. So we'll be announcing in about three weeks time the exact locations of them. And we just have there's some commercial arrangements just just need to be concluded. But we're partnering with their approved approved housing by these three of them here and who have done a really good job and are really good at managing these properties. And so really what it will mean is that people will be able to get long term secure rent for a minimum of 25 percent below the market rents that would be anywhere else within a given area.

Other things you have on your plate, the strategic housing developments which go straight on board Pianola. These are if they're are over 100 units.

And I think the on board pianola had 250 applications. Three quarters of them were were granted. Many of them contravened the local authority development plans.

And you have the chair of the board panel given out about people actually objecting to these things, saying people are given a free pass.

I mean, the cheek of them because people are bypassing the local council, which is where normal democracy works, to go straight to one board, Penola, to an unelected body who make decisions over and above the heads of the local councillors and the local people.

I mean, that is the cheek, if you don't mind me saying so, of Dave.

No, no, the chair of the board pianola to be complaining about that because there were judicial reviews, 28 judicial reviews, and most of them were lost by on board Kanala. Yes.

In other words, they know wrong to begin with in the programme for government perhaps, and which which I was part of the team that negotiated with the Green Party and would finish together. There's there's a commitment that the that the Saudis will not be extended past the end of this year. So the previous minister had signed the extension and that's fine. There were there were there for a specific reason, I think, you know, to fast track planning to deliver homes.

Many of them you know, I'm not talking about specific planning applications because I'm precluded from doing so. But I think what's also interesting is the conversion rate between SAHD approvals and what actually happens on the ground. And certainly it's been raised with me, the concerns that you have, you know. Annunciate, they're around, you know, conflict with local development plans. It is important that people know that like planning operations, obviously the council is a matter for the planners themselves.

The councillors don't have any role in the case.

And can you know, they look at their own county development plan upon which normally they've spent millions and they've got to public consultation and so on. And they large stopped county development plan and then their own planners look at that and they either approve of something or disapprove or something like and then it goes to the board plan and no plans don't actually observe the county development plan. I mean, that's crazy stuff. No.

And I think, look, as I said, the process won't will expire at the end of this year, early into next year. I think because of the eight week shutdown in in March last year where our planning was froze. And I think it's an additional eight weeks, just so we're clear. So by February 2022, the process expires. You made a very fair point. Like our local authorities, we, you know, have the knowledge on the ground.

They put their development plans together every five years and they should be the Bible of planning it in any given area for want of a better phrase. What I do think we need to ensure, though, and this is something that was debated in the run up to the election just about a year ago and again is in the programme for government now, is that our local authorities are resourced properly to be able to deliver planning and planning decisions promptly and efficiently as well.

And so the board obviously have a role in planning. We know that that's fine. And the process, though, part, I don't see it continuing past its expiry date.

And that's one of the things here in the province.

The government one of the things about the board minister is this, that they're supposed to keep a detailed minute as to why they would overrule a county council or indeed their own inspector. Are they don't they just kind of give the decision in that minutes? So there's never even under freedom of information, there's never any way that the ordinary public can understand why on board, Pianola overturned their own inspector, their own inspector, but not the council's inspector, their own inspector with no information on that.

Yeah, look, I understand and we do now have an office of the planning regulator that is there as well, whereby people can seek advice and recourse to look we want. And we have in the main a transparent planning system. I think the process was a fast track process that was brought in under the previous administration for a particular reason. And it's that because it was felt that there was a logjam in planning to deliver homes quicker. Now we know we need to deliver 33000 homes a year.

And that's got to be my focus. And the focus of a country is to make sure we're delivering, you know, homes for our people at an affordable rate for for purchase and for rent. We also need to make sure that we are fully transparent planning process.

So I particularly concerned, by the way, that some of the FDs than don't get built. Well, there's a sizable portion of them don't pass, and they have you know, I'm not talking about a specific application, obviously, but just a general point would be, is that, you know, a large number of PhDs that are granted don't actually convert into into being built. And then you have to look at as to why that is the case in certain areas.

And, you know, sometimes that can be, you know, a genuine conversion, you know, and that's it. But other people will say sometimes that's a better book value of of a property or a piece of land to enhance that value. We don't want that. And we need homes, you know, delivered for people. We need a planning process that backs that up. So, you know, we need to see what good elements of the FDs, you know, if they're if there are any could be continued in the councils, i.e., the efficiency of actually delivering planning what we want to make sure that that people have and the general public have access to the information and the reasons why decisions are granted, such as you have mentioned, inspectors reports and minutes.

And that should be available to people. And there shouldn't be a question about now.

We'd love to have on board panel on the show. I don't know whether they do interviews. We were told that's OK.

But anyway, the invitation is open to them. At one of the other concerns we have is bill to rent. And it turns out, according to an article I read by Frank MacDonald, about three quarters of new housing schemes, apartment blocks and so on are built around. In other words, in your locality there, build a tower of 10 or 11 stories like in Dublin, I think it's 16 or 19 for the Blair will say they're seeking, but they'll all be rented.

So people who live in the area who might want to change to apartment living and they own their own house, they have to flog their own house and then rent forever and a day. You must be concerned that the amount of building that is being built simply to generate an income stream for big investors and not give locals the chance to buy. I am and I am concerned and I have been for for some time and I raise these issues particularly about there is a role for, you know, for institutional investors, long term rentals and that.

But the issue is, I believe, proportion, concentration and location with parts of Dublin in particular, where there's a heavy concentration of these type of bills to rent development. And what happens then, as you rightly said, is that the family trading down of the copper who are trying to buy can't actually access properties because a lot of them are belligerent. Now, what we've done today on cost rental will provide an opportunity to balance some of that, by the way, because I believe that you know what I mean.

I'm not talking about articulateness, but if it turns out that young people starting out in life can no longer buy, they're being condemned to renting for the rest of their life.

And I don't want them because there's nothing available. Absolutely.

I'm sorry. And I diverted slightly from the way I don't want them to do that. And that's why I'm bringing forward the affordable purchase and shared equity to help people buy. But your point is very valid. What we've done in the programme for government is to ensure that each local authority calls those carries out excuse me, a rental needs assessment. And what that would mean that in a particular area, if you take it and, you know, be a Ballymun or Balbriggan are or poor monarch or whatever, that they will be able to assess how many rental properties are in a given area.

And if it's seen that there is sufficient, that they will then be able to say, well, there can be no more built to rent in a particular area because of the concentration of them, because you've got to make sure that young people and our seniors who are trading down have access to be able to be able to buy.

You want you don't want transients. You want people to build a community, but you don't. Your hardship tends to tends to bring about a couple more things.

A living over the shop. Your colleague Barry Cowan had quite a good bill have in opposition. And I'm just wondering, it costs to apply for these kind of permissions about 10 times in the republic, what it costs in Northern Ireland to to just get the planning and all the documentation for such a conversion 10 times here, what it costs in Northern Ireland. There's got to be an easier way.

Yeah, there is a Barrys bill was a good piece of legislation, which we're looking at right now. And actually in the north it is. And in Britain, indeed, they have a better process. And one of the reasons for that is they have four different categories of preservation, which means that, you know, depending on the importance of the property of what you can do behind the facade or above the shop, and that that's a big problem, particularly in Dublin and Limerick in Cork areas where there are older Georgian buildings, the cost of actually converting them, which means that we have a last and far too many empty vacant properties, we are going to be able to do something about it.

I was actually in Limerick just before Christmas and the local authority there are doing a really good job at repair and lease some of these and bringing people back in to live in a lot of our older buildings. But the planning system and actually with regard to the preservation piece and this isn't about ripping up our preservation or the Royal Institute of Architects of Ireland have done a real good job on this, too, is actually looking at the different categories of preservation.

So it means that you can you can do more inside, you know, inside a property as well. What I what I was having to jump through so many hoops because we have a lot of vacancies, you know, have residences, potential residence as a bookshops that actually aren't lived in it brings life back into our into our cities and indeed our regional towns. There has been some success on the on the repair and lease and also a scheme which we're going to look to expand, which is called buy and renew, which means that we get people in that there will be grants available to convert older properties to get people back living in them.

And that's a good thing. But we're we're working on that right now. And Barry's legislation was a good guide for that, too.

OK, finally, Minister, a suggestion from one of our listeners is to cap the rent available on co living, which will probably put a stop to that Galip anyway, you know, 500 a month for a shoebox. That's fair enough. I just leave that suggestion with you where you have bancor living.

And we did do that. So and I hear what your listeners are saying. It's not a tenure of housing that that I support. So, no, I, I take any reasonable suggestions on board and I don't.

Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Darro. Brian, thank you very much for joining us there.

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