The part Kenny show on news talk with Marter private network during current restrictions. Don't ignore your health concerns. Our expert team is ready to help. As you've been hearing at the high court has ruled that pubs are entitled to insurance claims over the covid closures, if the high court decided that this was the case when four pub owners took a case and they were the pub owners, which, you know, as Sennett's bar in Dublin, the Leppard's town in Dublin, and Lemon and Duke in Dublin, and the owner of Sean's Bar and Athlone in county Westmeath there.

The pubs that took this action, a sample action. I suppose others may well be piggybacking on all of this, but I'm joined by Brian Winter, who's a publican, solicitor and organiser of the Save Irish Pubs campaign. Brian, good morning. Good morning, Paula. Thank you very much for having me on.

Now, tell me about the history of this. How did the claims start? And I suppose you're overjoyed by the result.

Absolutely, I have the judgment here open in front of me, there is quite a bit to digest, but it is a very good news story for Republicans, the length and breadth of Ireland, how the story began to save Irish.

Paul's campaign is backed by Irish distillers. I kind of compliment them enough for coming on board and supporting us.

And it was in response to the manner in which the insurance companies have the actual disregard that they have handled claims by not only Republicans, but small business under the heading business interruption. In response to that, Republicans submitted claims there were advisers to go to arbitration with the cost of an arbitration was somewhere in the region of 100 to 150000, which was beyond the reach of many Republicans. So in collaboration with Irish distillers structures, the leading commercial firm, the council's Gerald Wavelike, whereby we invite publican's from across the country to submit their policy, and we would assess, package them together and take test cases in order for them to get recompense, two of which they were entitled to.

That is so the cover that Republicans thought they had was that they had to cover for interrupted business. And did it specify in the policies and what circumstances might interrupt the business? You know, for example, if they decide to put a Lewes line outside your door and while they're doing the work, no one can go in.

And your pub, obviously, you lose business. Would that kind of thing typically have been covered? Yes.

Look, the policies vary from insurer to ensure the the case, which is under scrutiny today, relates to business interruption arising from infectious disease. And we in Save Irish Pub have analysed over 19 policies that are in the market in Ireland. And the important point here part is business interruption not only extends to infectious disease, but there is provision in there for loss of licence and loss of access to your premises. The Supreme Court in the UK two weeks ago ruled very much in favor of the insured.

That has been echoed by Justice MacDonald today. So what I would be urging all publicans across the country, Dublin, Cork, Donegal, Kerry, get your policies into your last assessor where you taught that you had not got cover. That is back in sharp focus. You can upload your policy to save our pubs, but we will assess the validity of your claim for no cost to the public and this will not cost you anything. So today is a quite a seminal day, not only for, first of all, publicans and the pub industry as a whole, but also for small business, because I think the insurance industry have not exactly covered themselves in glory.

As the old adage, unions should rise up to the point as to when you make a claim and then the true Republicans to to to to the lines, the letters of the pen to the basis upon which to deny politicians or simply nonsensical the argument that speed offered.

Can you summarize what they were saying? Because on the face of it, if you're covered for infectious disease closure, you think, Oh, I'm covered.

So what were they saying? What was the reason they were offering, in summary, as to why you weren't covered?

Well, I think in very brief, if it was to give a very kind of quick synopsis of the judgment, I think FCD had conceded liability before this judgement. But what they were trying to invoke was what they called the trends clause. That's what that means in layman's terms, is due to the core of the crisis. Business was in such decline that even if you weren't entitled to the claim, that claim was minimal. The court has rejected that synopsis.

So what the court are saying is, you know, the matter has to go back in a quantum of damages that would be awarded for WFTDA, basically saying, No. One, we're denying you have a plan, but if you are entitled to a claim because of corvids, you would not have had any business. The court has rejected that only today.

And that is it's an interesting it's an interesting argument. I know the old story about the guy who takes out a gun and shoots his parents and then goes into court and looks for clemency on the basis that he's an orphan.

You know, it's that kind of logic. But but this may not.

Resulting in the huge payout, depending on what the quantum at that is set down by the high court and then if the quantum looks very large for the insurers, are they going to go all the way to the Supreme Court?

I guess I'm venturing into the realm of speculation as to whether the insurance company, i.e. Speedy, will appeal this. I don't actually believe they will. I think the judgment is a very fair synopsis of the facts. And and more importantly, the law like this is simple contract part. There was a policy offer, acceptance, consideration. The the terms and conditions were contained within that policy. So the four Republicans today are only obtaining cover for what they were entitled to.

Quantum you know, again, there could be quite a payback for the Irish exchequer. What I mean by that, a lot of the policies relate to gross margin. The insurance companies are going to argue that because of the wage subsidy, you know, that that should be discounted or counterarguments. That would be. No, you pay out on under the terms of the policy if Republican or small business had to repatriate that money to the exchequer. That's a different discussion.

But today, it's a discussion between the Republicans and the Exchequer. Exactly. Yeah.

Now, one final point, Brian. The question of whether or not companies who have this business were actually reinsured with other companies in other jurisdictions and what that impact, if FBT, for example, could not retrieve the money that they thought they had reinsured in another jurisdiction?

I mean, what might happen to them? Because if they have massive payouts, this could be hugely damaging to them financially.

Just take one look at IPD. She's a little concerned about their capacity or capability of being able to meet their liabilities, you know, insurance companies on a personal level and I think is is the sentiment of many people. They're absolutely brilliant. Are collecting in your queeny. You know, the response to the COBRA crisis for small business across Ireland has been a hike in premiums they have collected. You take you take an average Republican down the country who has been in the trades for 35 to 40 years.

They have paid hundreds of pounds in policy fees over the over the duration of their business life and, yes, in their time of need. When when when the first time that the really called on the insurance companies were were I have absolutely no sympathy for the insurance companies. They have the balance sheet to collect money. We're only enforcing on behalf of publican's what they're entitled to.

OK, well, look, Brian, thank you very much for joining us. Brian Wonder who's a publican himself, solicitor and organizer of the Save Irish Pubs campaign. And I've no doubt we'll hear lots more about this story later on in the day.