It may mean that you don't get to A to B as fast as you could. The easier thing is to include, let's say, these three people. But if these three people aren't the diverse group of people that you would like to have to see the change that you'd like to see in the future, then you may take the shortcut. Often, I'm guilty of that myself. I found myself more and more saying, even though this may not be the most efficient thing to do, the only way that folks are going to, in particular, learn the skills and the experience is take them along the journey with us.

This is In Her Element, a podcast from BCG. I'm Suchi Srinivasan.

I'm Camila Rakhimova. Each episode, we have meaningful and vulnerable conversations with women leaders and allies in digital business and technology.

This week, we're speaking to Pavesh Dayalji, Chief Executive Officer Officer at Kentho Technologies and Chief AI Officer at S&P Global. In this conversation, we're going to be focusing on Bavesh's role as an ally and what he thinks other leaders could do to show up for the women in their workplace.

Bavesh not just open and honest about the struggle to balance work and family life, a challenge that many senior leaders face at some point in their career.

Here's my conversation with Bavesh.

I'm Bavesh Dealgie. I'm first, I would say, a husband, then a father. Then for profession, I'm the CEO of Kensho, an artificial intelligence company, and also the Chief AI Officer of S&P Global. I have two roles. In fact, I have many, many roles, both as all of those things that I mentioned before and my professional job. So that's who I am.

So, Bhavesh, talk to us a little bit about your origins. How did you get started, your experiences at CERN, and walking us through your journey into leadership roles?

Well, I think it probably first makes sense to talk about my family. My family are immigrants, like many people's family, especially in the US, and I'm sure like yours. So my parents came, my mother came from India, my dad came from East Africa in the UK, and I would say probably the '60s, '50s, '60s. And so I grew up in the UK. I was one of three kids. I was the youngest. I was also not the smartest. And so that really drove me. And when I went to university, I studied software engineering. And what clicked was how I learn. And I don't think I really knew how I learned until I went to university. And then I did really well. So I was doing fantastic at university. I started my career at CERN, which is where the Large Hydrogen Collider is, and the Higgs-Boson particle was found there. That was also where Tim Berners Lee founded the World Wide Web. And that place in particular was defining to me, I think, because I saw how much passion people had for technology. I spent my time there working on a specific experiment called Atlas, and we were using software engineering applications to really study what was happening when particles collided.

And it was fantastic working with these physicists and working with these great computer scientists and software engineers. But something was missing, right? So for me, what was missing was I was always so interested in the application of technology in the business world in particular. And CERN is in Switzerland, and it's right next to Geneva. And I always used to joke with my colleagues at the time that I was actually more interested in what the private bankers were doing in Geneva than I was with a physicist at CERN. So that took me into consulting. And that's what brought me to working with startups. And I think the key thing that I learned through all of that experience was the time to reflect and the time to be conscious and intentional about the work that you want to be doing and the energy that it brings you. And so that brought me to Kenshou. Kenshou was this very small startup at the time. We grew it, we scaled it to the point of an acquisition to S&P Global in 2018, the largest AI acquisition at the time. Think of it akin to DeepMind. And now we serve as the AI Innovation Hub for S&P Global.

Wow. First off, just marveling at the breadth of experiences that really shaped you as an individual. That's given you a vantage point. I think that sounds very unique in the industry, right? You've looked into consulting, you've been in academics, you've had the startup, and now you've had the big company experience. I love the diversity of that journey. Let's talk a little bit about your viewpoint as an observer here. When did you start observing inequalities in this tech sector?

I think it was actually at university. When I think about just my class, it was generally all men.

You don't say.

Yeah, exactly. I remember one friend of mine, Vivian, and I remember thinking, wow, she's the only woman in this class. And I just remember thinking, I wonder how that feels. And then it carried on, to be honest. When you went to CERN, it was very similar. And there was always specific roles. This is the one thing that sticks in my mind. So if it was in a specific function, then it would be more women than men. Or if it was in a specific area, it was more women than men. And I think that's where I started noticing it. But if I'm completely honest and frank, I didn't think to myself, okay, well, how do you change that? It was just an observation that I had. And I think that that's actually the big change that I've seen, at least in my leadership, where I want to do something about that now. And maybe that's because I'm in a leadership position. But at the same time, I think there are a lot more advocates now, which I think is great, but there's still a long way to go.

And I do think we want to unpack that journey that you traversed from you as the observer, where you're like, something seems off here or just different, to this place where you are now with your role, where you're doing something about it and how you're actioning it. I want to come back. Let's talk a little bit about Kenshoh. I know you said it's an AI startup and it does AI for S&P. Maybe a little bit deeper about what Kenshoh does in the industry and for S&P, and then you can dive into your role. What does that mean as CEO of Kenshoh and also the Chief AI Officer at S&P?

The way I think about Kenshoh as an AI innovation hub for S&P Global is about us focusing on solutions that turn data into insights and power critical workflow for S&P Global's customers. If you think about S&P Global's business, what they ultimately are doing is taking all of this unstructured, complicated, fragmented data out there in the world, bringing it into their ecosystem, and then synthesizing it, analyzing it, and developing insights from that. I would say that that's core to a lot of S&P Global's businesses. Then if you think about, well, okay, how are you going to scale that? How are you going to grow and innovate? You are going to have to leverage AI in everything that you do. It has to be core to everything that S&P Global does. Our focus has been on creating these foundational capabilities that really powers how they bring that data and insights to their customers. So think of things like extracting specific pieces of information from unstructured documents. Think about things like turning audio into text using machine learning. Think about now with generative AI connecting these databases together and then being able to query and create a conversational search engine for our customers that give you the intelligence that you need in a seamless way.

And this has been the core of what we've been doing. And for Kensho, in particular, our special source or our ingredient that I think makes us who we are is we are very much an engineering-driven culture. The majority of our people have an engineering background, really fueled by intellectual curiosity, knowledge sharing, experimentation, and a bias to action. And I think for S&P Global, it's really about using this scarce resource. I always talk about Kenshou as a scarce resource and making sure we apply in the right way, because otherwise, you're treated like a commodity. You as a technologist as well, Sook Yee, would appreciate that it's very easy to consider technology resources, machine learning, engineers, AI practitioners as just commodities. I feel very strongly about the fact that that can't be the case.

Yeah, that's right. Bavesh, Kenshou has really been doing all of this in AI for your clients and customers, actually, way before ChatGPT burst on the scene and generative AI or AI in general, became a matter of public discussion. You've been trailblazing pioneers there. For our listeners, though, would you tell us what is specifically your role as CEO? What are the things you do? Give us a peek into a day in the life of Baavish.

Absolutely. I think, firstly, I I think what's most important is setting a direction. Really making it clear what's our North Star. I think that that is the job of the CEO, almost to the point of making it so boring how I keep saying the same things about what is it that we do and how is it that we drive value. Setting that strategy and that North Star, I think, is a really important job as a CEO. Then more personally, I think where I get energy from most is really connecting with the teams, and not necessarily my reports, but the people within the organization at all levels just trying to get a pulse of, are we heading in the right direction? What are some of the gaps that I'm not seeing? What are some of the issues that are percolating that we can work on to make ourselves more efficient or better and more impactful. And I think that the hardest part as a CEO is really being everywhere. And if I can be vulnerable for a second here on this subject, this is something that I've been thinking about a lot because I'm now doing two roles, is it's just really always feeling like you don't have enough time.

I pride myself in knowing everything and doing everything and making sure I'm making an impact, but there just isn't enough time, and I just always feel like I'm behind.

Well, thank you for sharing that and that moment of vulnerability. My observation here working with so many business leaders in my role as a consultant is that it's actually more more common than we hear it said out loud. And so thank you for sharing that quite openly. Let's talk a little bit now about the diversity of thought. Now, you have a real belief here that diversity of thought is what is needed in the AI space. From your vantage point as one of the real trailblazing leaders in the space, talk to us a little bit and show us what are the benefits of this and why is it proving difficult to get that diversity of thought?

I think the problem really extends beyond the AI space, if I'm honest. I think it really goes into the investment and interest in STEM subjects, in particular early, having that more diverse groups of students that I talked about earlier, and I think that that is changing. But I think it's also... It's about having greater representation at the right levels, whether it's leaders, CEOs, leaders of machine learning teams, and them being advocates. I And I think the other thing that I think about as an issue, and I think maybe people don't talk about this enough, is it may mean that you don't get to A to B as fast as you could. Because what that means is the easier thing is to include, let's Let's say these three people. But if these three people aren't the diverse group of people that you would like to have to see the change that you'd like to see in the future, then you may take the shortcut. And often I'm guilty of that myself. And I found myself more and more saying, even though this may not be the most efficient thing to do, the only way that folks are going to, in particular, learn the skills and the experience is take them along the journey with us.

I think that that's such an important thing that we can all do as leaders.

What are some very specific things that leaders like yourself should be doing to increase that diversity of thought, of action, of representation within the AI space?

Firstly, it's about just asking the questions. So when we're hiring people, it's my job, it's my leader's jobs to ask the right questions about, have we thought about these other candidates, these diverse candidates? Why not this person? Before, I just used to approve hires. Now I'm asking, Okay, What's the slate? Did we look at this person for this reason? Did we look at another person for this reason? So I think it's asking questions, right? I think the second thing is, how do you create a place where people can bring their authentic selves to work? And I think when people see that, women included and diverse candidates, they really feel like it's the culture and the place where they can do their best work. And I think that's where it's not always the case. And so You've advised plenty of clients, and there's a spectrum, right? There's a spectrum of how advanced these cultures are in terms of where society is heading versus how legacy cultures they are. And I'm looking for change agents, and I'm doing that more more now. And in my role as Chief AI Officer at S&P Global, one of the things that I think about a lot is my job is really to be a change agent.

It isn't to deploy technology, it's to be a change agent.

And I think, Babish, that's exactly why it's important for our listeners to hear from folks like yourself because you have such a visible leadership role shaping that agenda, not only inside S&P Global, which is very large corporation, but also up and down the industry. For example, in the financial services industry and beyond. For them to hear from you about how you view this and your role as a change agent, I think is extremely important. It starts to set the pattern of expectations from leaders like yourself. I want to go back to one other thing. So you talked about bringing your authentic self to work. Let's peel that a little bit more in terms of women in the workplace. What does this mean to you? And what do you think is potentially stopping women from actually bringing their full selves or their authentic selves to work?

I think that's a better question, probably, to ask to the specific women. But I'll give you my perspective. I think like any top talent, what happens is you try to conform to get the best outcomes. And if the leaders are suggesting that's the way to get ahead, that's when you don't bring your authentic self to And I think it's about feeling comfortable and not appeasing managers and leaders. And I'll give you an example around one of Kentra's core values as open and transparent communication. And what I'm looking for in everybody, including women, is to share what you're thinking, share your perspective, your advice. It matters. It really matters because that's how we're going to get to the best outcome. And I think innovation in particular needs that psychological safety, because sometimes you're going to say silly things, and you shouldn't be penalized for saying those silly things. I mean, I've said a million silly things. So I think it's about women in particular being open and vulnerable themselves and getting joy in that, frankly. And it's about me encouraging them to create that culture as well. Can I ask you a question, though, Sook Yee?

I mean, I think given that I have a bit of a working relationship with you, I've seen you in action, and I think You're brilliant and you've done amazing things for many, many different clients. I know that for a fact. But do you feel like you can bring your authentic self to work every day?

I think now I can. If you'd asked me the question 10 years ago, 15 years ago, I'd have said no. The answer to that is not just the decade that we're living in or the particular employer, but it also, I think, has to do a lot with my tenure. As I've grown older and accumulated more experiences, it's a function of the confidence that basically says, I honestly don't care what anyone thinks about me. Reaching that point is very difficult early in your tenure because by definition, you haven't accumulated enough life experiences to say that. So the role of leaders like yourself to create that psychological safety net that says, It's okay, you don't have to care because we value everybody is the launch pad to get them to this place that I think I've gotten to maybe after some hard knocks in life to some extent.

Absolutely.

Let's maybe wrap that up. And any words of advice for young people in the workforce? What can they do today to get themselves ready for a career in AI?

I think it's experimentation. I'm annoyed that I'm not young right now. If you look at all of the innovation that's happening, think about things like ChatGPT, obviously, think about how advanced AI has become. Think about how it's so easy to get compute on demand. Think about how you can do these no code sorts of platforms. This is the time to experiment, and that's the way you're going to learn. I mean, it's fantastic going to the best universities. It's fantastic also learning through courses. But I've always found the best way you can get better at anything is to experiment and not start with the end goal in mind always, because that's always frustrating how you're not making progress. Just start with the learning and start with the experimentation. And I think the other thing to remember is it's fine if you don't love AI. You can embrace the aspects of it as part of your day to day. We're going to need a lot of roles in lots of different subjects. I think it's a wonderful time as an example to be a creative and to leverage AI. And so don't feel like you need to go into AI.

I get so many people asking me is like, how do I get into AI? And the first question I'm asking them is like, do you have a passion for this? Do you want to do this? Do you have an interest in this? And often the answer is, no, I don't. But it just feels like that's what I need to do because that's where you get paid the most money or that's where the most jobs are. I think that's an okay answer, but it becomes a grind 10 years in if you don't love what you're doing.

That's really great advice. Let's turn this around. I know you introduced yourself as a dad, as a husband, as a friend. So let's talk about your family and who supports you to bring your whole self to work and at home. Talk to us about who else is there.

Well, it's really cliché, but I'll say it because it is true. My wife, Emily, in particular, is a wonderful friend, leader, partner, and also the chairman of my board. She's the one person that can see through any rubbish that I may be spouting or any things I may be doing that's not correct and she'll call me out on it. And everybody needs that person in their life. But at the same time, it's also a joy to go through life with her. And I don't think about it as support. I think about it more as we have so much fun together. Our kids are a lot of work. And just as you probably know, kids are a lot of work because you've got kids of your own. But I think having fun and doing great things together is something that both Emily and I are very passionate about and something that I personally treasure as the highlight of my life. And I think in the end, the way I think about my personal life and the people in my life and my support system is, hopefully I'm giving something to them. Hopefully, I am actually supporting them.

I'd be annoyed with myself and disappointed if I wasn't.

That's beautiful. I think just your very holistic way of looking at the various people in your life, as you said, and the roles that you play. This is a curiosity question I know everyone wants to ask, so we're going to ask it for our audience. Are you ever to fully switch off from work in such a senior role as yours?

I try to. I'm getting better at it every single day. Having three kids helps to switch off because you don't have a choice. Just yesterday, my son actually said to me, is to my daughter, so my son is five years old and my daughter is three years old, and they were both near my laptop and talking to me, and I could just hear what my son said to my daughter, which was just like, oh, there's dad. He's working again. He's always working. And it just made me think, oh, God. So I stopped working and I started playing with them. So I think that's the balance. But I think going back to that vulnerability point you made earlier about what I said, I am struggling with balancing it all right now and not feeling like I'm on top of everything. But that's a skill that I'm learning as well as I go through it. And I think anybody that's telling you they've got it all under control in these positions are lying. They don't.

You took the words out of my mouth. I think it is absolutely 100 % a common struggle. And it's just the degree to which, the different degrees to which they're all talking about it. So thank you again for being so open and just sharing all of the inner thoughts on how you manage all of this. That's amazing.

Can I just add one thing? I wanted to comment on the fact that the podcast is called In Her Element, and I wanted to thank you in particular for inviting me on and to share some of these perspectives. And I was thinking, you and I had the opportunity to talk about a different subject. And I thought about what I could say around when I was last in my element. And I was thinking about when I was sharing an idea about a specific way we can deploy artificial intelligence and think about it. And I was in a great flow where I loved everything that we were ripping on and talking about and coming to a wonderful solution. I was just thinking about that gave me so much energy. I think that that's something that you're probably doing to a lot of clients out there. And it's so enriching. I was just thinking about that point that that was the last time that I would say I was in my element.

That was my conversation with Bavesh. Camilla, what were some of your key takeaways from from that conversation?

You know, Suchi, I really loved about setting the tone from the top and how Bavesh does that when it comes to recruiting and putting the teams together, playing a role in asking the question, why these candidates? What the strengths that they bring to the table, and how do we upfront do something to drive a different configuration of teams. I think that's a really powerful role modeling practice that then I'm sure trickles down in his organization and many I think being intentional, but yet giving the space to his teams to run the process, asking them the thoughtful questions. Sook Yee, what stands out to you the most in this conversation?

It was just such a refreshing conversation. He opened up with so many vulnerabilities. I thought it was really powerful for somebody with his scope of work and responsibilities to be pretty transparent about his struggles, honestly, that how he struggles to keep up, how he struggles to stay on top of things, that he doesn't have it all put together, and that his scenario at home is just the same as yours and mine, and probably a million other people here with the kids peering over the laptop. It was refreshing to hear it, and I think it was necessary to hear it from someone like him.

I can feel that as well, that when you see the full human being and the leader show up that way, one of the first feelings that rises through me is, I can do that too, because this person is full of successes, but also full of struggles. And that is such an empowering feeling.

Well, that's all for today. This has been In Her Element, a podcast from BCG.

Join us next time to hear more meaningful and vulnerable conversations with women leaders in digital business and technology.

Thank you so much for listening.