Transcribe your podcast

Three oh five.


Mark. Yeah, look, they love me. Yeah, they love me first. Love yourself for that. And God, we trust. Trust me. I don't trust myself. Your jewelry. I get it. Took no show.


Welcome back to it is what it is. This episode is sponsored by Underdog Fantasy. The app is an easy way to make some cash just by making picks on your favorite players. Underdog is available in more than 30 states, including California, Florida, Texas and New York, just to name a few. Make sure to support the show by hitting the link in the bio and downloading the underdog fantasy app. They will also match your first deposit up to $100 and you get a special pick when you sign up. I'm treasure Wilson, aka stat baby, along with your hosts, Mace and Cam.




What's good?


How are you doing, man? You all right?


Yeah, man.


From yesterday. Pause. I'm watching that nigga, but the word is that that was okay what I did. But you still up from when you hit me with all the hats. You and stat. It seemed like they threw you in it too. Stat. They said y'all lied me. So I don't know if that was a ploy to get stat back as well with the hats, but they said I'm still there.


They wanted to throw a stat in it.




How you feel about that?


It is what it is. Say that.


Jacksonville coming out, I bet.


Let's do it. Okay.


Well, for today's episode, we are joined with a very special guest. He was born in Brooklyn and was selected by the Knicks as the 18th overall pick in the 1987 NBA draft. During his career, he was an NBA all star NBA rookie of the year in 1988 and is 6th on the NBA's all time assist list. From 2011 to 2014, he was the head coach of the Golden State warriors. After coaching, he was recently a game analyst and announcer for ESPN. Introducing Mark Jackson.


Mark, what's going, baby?


Everything good, man. Congrats on everything. Y'all are climbing the charts, making a lot of noise. I'm honored to be on, man.


Thank you so much for joining the show and we look forward to everything that you have in the future planned out and thanks for joining us before the year is over, this is our Christmas gift to the show, man. We really appreciate it, man.


Yeah, Mark.


That's what's up, man.


I'm with legends. I'm with legends now.


Cut it out, Mark. Cut it out. It is no bigger legend in New York City than Mark Jackson. Man. You're at the top of Mount Rushmore, legends. Definitely.


Thank you. Thank you, Mark.


You know, you was on the only Knick team I watched growing up.


You're not telling the truth, man.


I told killer I stopped watching the Knicks after they traded Strickland. That's when I stopped, though.






Was you the one saying, put Strickland in front of me or play us together?


He's watching.


I thought Strickland should have came off the bench. You know what I'm saying? I definitely did.


I would certainly say we should have played together. Rod is a bad basketball player, all time. Great point guard and a tremendous friend.


Absolutely. Look, we always up here, I don't know where your loyalty lies. As far as your team outside know, you coached a few different places or you played a few different places, but we say, as New Yorkers, we're always allowed to have a second team because we can't go through the turmoil that the Knicks put us through. Me and Mace aren't old enough. And of course, that is it. We've never seen the Knicks win a championship ever in our life. We've seen the Giants win. We've seen the Yankees win. We actually seen the Mets win in 86. I believe it was the jets and the Knicks, we have never seen win. So we always get a plan b when it comes to NBA team, when it comes to the Knicks. How do you feel about the Knicks franchise overall since the last championship in 1973?


Well, fortunately, I was alive to be around for 69 and 73, especially 73, because Earl of Pearl Monroe was my guy. But let's go back. You can't have a plan B.


What are you all talking about? What are you all talking about?


Who said it's okay to have a plan b? That's what I want to do.


I want to talk to that. Mark, you got to realize this comes with stress and heartache and pain and everything else. And I know that's part of it. I dig it. But at the same time, see, you got paid. We didn't get paid.


We just watched them layups under the basket. Ewing finger roll.


Yeah. Charles Smith, he won't dunk the basketball. We went through a lot of heartache and pain.


I'm biting my nails thinking about the Knicks right now. I'm biting my nails in years.


And listen, Mark, you're absolutely right. I got a lot of friends that say the same thing you say, cam, don't come back when we make it to the playoffs. I don't want to hear nothing of that. Because when Julius Randall got there his first year at RJ Barrett, they looked pretty good. So when they got to the playoffs, I was like, all right, I'm back. And they was like, kim, get the hell out of here, man. You're not back. We don't want you. So maybe you're right. A lot of Knicks fans are going to agree with what you said, but are the Knicks your team?


No, I don't have a team. Being quite honest, they were my team as a kid growing up. I watched every game. I listened to games. I went to the park like all of us, and tried to emulate the things that I saw during the course of a game. So they were my team growing up. It was a dream to play for the Knicks. It was a dream to be on the Madison Garden court. So that was something I wanted to do. And they were my team growing up. But when I made it and covering the NBA for almost 20 years, I didn't have a team. So, no, and I will go back to the Patrick human finger roll. I really thoroughly enjoyed that because it was against my Indiana paces.


He was there. You watched him fumble.


Yeah, we hated that.


That might have been the final straw for me. Was exaggerating the other day. Mace said, I ain't watched the Nickers since Trent Tucker played for them, man.


Yeah, that was my nick team.


That's what's up.


Well, before we get into the main topics, I do have a couple of questions that I do want to ask you. So, are you ready?


Always ready.






So, considering you were once rookie of the year, who would be your front runner right now?


The front runner for rookie of the year right now is Victor Wimanyana because of what he's doing is absolutely incredible. Looking at his numbers, he continues to get better and Sky's the limit for him. Chet Holgren is an outstanding player for Oklahoma City Thunder. What he's doing is awfully impressive. Any other time, he would be probably the lead for rookie of the year, but I would have to go with wendy because of his impact and what he's doing. But we're a long way from sealing the deal on that. But he's the guy that leading the clubhouse as of today.


Let me ask you something to follow up on. What stat just asked, do you think it's fair that Chet is even eligible to be rookie of the year, being that he was in the league last year? I know he didn't play any games, but he was around the NBA facilities. He was at practice, he'd been around, he had experience. This was a similar situation. Was it Ben Simmons, Mace?




And even though he didn't play a game. He a red shirt NBA rookie. I like that. I like the way you put that. Do you think that that's fair for him to even be eligible for rookie of the year?


Mark, I do believe it's fair, and the reason why I say that specifically is because we treat them like rookies, as veterans on the team. So that rookie that didn't play a moment during the course of their first year still has to carry the bags, still got to go get donuts, still have to run routes and do things that a rookie would have to do. So I think it's totally fair because of the fact of the matter is they didn't play 1 second the previous year, so I got no problem with it.


All right, bet. Okay.


Also, back to when you were playing, I know the pristines were a pretty big threat. Obviously, we know right now they're on a pretty bad losing streak. And I've asked this question kind of before. What's your perspective on how you think that they could put themselves back on the map? Like, how do you think that they can fix their team?


I was fortunate enough to get a job with the Golden State warriors head coach that they had not made the playoffs, I believe, one time in 19 consecutive years. So they were not a winning team at that particular time. And the thing that you wanted to instill in them is changing the culture, is making sure we are the hardest working team on the floor every single night. That's the first thing that you have to do. We want to come in the locker room and understand we gave it our all, not that we're talking about it, but that we actually gave it our all in between those lines. And when you do that, good things follow. And you see what has taken place with the Golden State warriors and the dynasty that they put together. Sustained greatness that they put together. It starts with the correct habits. And when you look at that Detroit Pistons teams, that's the thing that you have to sell to them, not just collectively, but individually. It starts. Let's make sure we defend. Let's make sure we hold each other accountable. Let's make sure we play with pride and represent what the Detroit Pistons have represented for so many years.


And when you do that, good things follow. So that would be the first thing that I would say, and then the winds will take care of themselves.


Do you think that's the same formula for that the Utah Jazz needs as well? It seems like they're struggling. They're in the same boat as the Detroit Pistons.


I absolutely think and when you look at the Utah Jazz, they have more guys that have accomplished in between those lines. Ari marketing, his success being an all star. Jordan Clarkson, his success being six man of the year. So they have more proven guys that they have a faster track to getting there. But no matter who you're talking about, the elite teams are the bad teams. It starts with the correct habits and taking care of business on the floor and holding each other accountable every single night real quick.


I like his answers. Could you give me an example of when you got to Golden State and a lot of people sit there and say, oh, Golden State, they got everybody. They got everybody but everybody. That's the main core. When I say the main core, I say Clay Thompson, I say Draymond Green, I say Steph Curry, even Andre Inquadala to a certain extent. But I'm going to leave Andre Inquadala out of this. These players were drafted, so it wasn't like they made a bunch of trades to get this team together. And you won't say it because you're such a nice guy, but Isaiah Thomas, Big Isaiah Thomas, the OG, he said that Mark Jackson doesn't get enough credit for changing the game of basketball because another coach may have not let Steph Curry or Clay Thompson shoot these threes, and now the whole NBA is shooting threes because of the system that you let go on at Golden State. With that being said, when you say the right work ethics and the right habits and so on and so forth, what happened when you first got to Golden State and you seen Steph Curry and Clay Thompson shooting these threes and you said, I got to let this work.


I got to see if this goes down, because obviously you've seen it go down in practice, but doing it in a game is something totally different. Was that something you said, I'm going to take a chance on, or was just that undeniable shooting that you said, I can't stop it?


Well, first of all, you guys are outstanding. I mean, this is tremendous questions and putting pressure on me. And I don't take for granted your brilliance and your greatness. So there's a reason that you guys continue to climb the charts and that everybody's talking about you. I will say this. Thank you. I will say this. Steve Kerr is an incredible basketball mind, an incredible basketball coach, and he's done an incredible job. And he is a guy that will go down in history as one of the best to ever do it as far as coaching, and he's a true champion. That being said, I'll take the credit that you gave me, but it has nothing to do with me. It has something to do with the greatness of Steph Curry, Clay Thompson, Draymond Green, that incredible cast of guys that have put together a championship run together. And it wasn't me putting the battery in their back. I truly watched their brilliance, and I acknowledged it, and I sat back and allowed them to play. And it wasn't anything new. It was something that happened to me as a young kid playing in my rookie with the New York Knicks from day one.


We had two point guards playing in front of me when I came in and watched them in camp. Gerald Henderson and Rory Sparrow, two proven guys. Rick Patino took the basketball out of their hands, put it in my hands, and then also told me that I was the best point guard in the league. Did he believe it? I'm not sure, but it didn't matter to me. It sounded like music to my ears, and I was convinced, no matter who I was playing against, night in and night out, whether it was Magic Johnson, Isaiah Thomas, John Stockton, the greats, every single night facing them, I was convinced that they were the second best point guard on the floor. Now, at my 58 years old self today, that was ludicrous. That was absurd. Magic Johnson better than me detector in 1987 and asked me that question. I would have passed the lie detector test because the guy that was in the suit and tie convinced me that I was better, and he believed in me. So I instilled belief in the guys that I attempted to coach, and it propelled them to greatness. So I don't take credit for it.


One thing you can't do is lie, so they got to give you a foundation to make it believable, and those guys certainly did that.


That's what's up.


When you say that, you just said something that really sparked a thought in my mind about what made you just say, okay, go shoot that. Like, in real time. If you're coaching a team and he come down the court, what was the first thing that made you say, this guy's brilliant, and I have to let him shoot that shot?


That's a great question, and I'll keep it as simple as this. If we all went into the booth, me and stat would shut up and watch you guys fit, is what you do. I watched Clay Thompson and Steph Curry shoot the basketball and practice every single day before practice after practice, is what they did. It was absolute poetry in motion, watching those guys shoot the basketball. So I'd be a fool to not give them the green light and the same shots that I witnessed them shoot. Even though the history of the game tell you those are bad shots and part of the reason that teams are losing against the warriors, because they're trying to shoot against shooters, it makes no sense. You look at the game last night, I don't want to jump ahead, but the Boston Celtics, I don't want to get into a three point shooting contest with Clay Thompson and Steph Curry. It makes no sense. It's a recipe for disaster. But I witnessed those guys greatness, and it was easy for me to say, shoot the basketball and the results will follow.


And I got one more question. Yeah, I got one more question. Another thing that you said that was really interesting. I always pay attention to this when somebody says it. Accountability. What does accountability look like for you in coaching that team? When you said we kept everybody accountable?


It doesn't just mean coaches to players. It also means players to coaches. I got to show them and sell to them the same way that they're making shots and doing things on the floor, I got to also sell to them. I can remember being in the locker room. We were playing against a specific team with some star players, and I looked Steph Curry, Draymond Green, Clay Thompson, Andre Godala, whoever it was in the eye, and I went individually demanding that you win your matchup. And I then said, I got and I named a coach. It's me and him, and I'm going to win my matchup. I expect the same thing from you guys. So holding each other accountable and making sure that what the standard is, is the standard, and we're not going to accept anything short of that. And when you do that, it becomes contagious all throughout the locker room, the bus rides, the plane rides, possessions, offensively, defensively, the unselfishness. And it's sustainable, as opposed to, we've seen things the other way. You're going to lose and you're going to put together a losing streak. So it's a beautiful thing when you're all in harmony.


Mark, you good man. Mark, you nice man.


Win your match right now, this.


You know why Mark is so good? Because of this. You're tremendous, Mark, because you gave such a good answer that you never answered my question. It's a simple yes or no question, Mark. Do you think you deserve more credit for changing the game of basketball the way that it's being played now that the credit you're not receiving, according to Isaiah Thomas.


I think I get enough credit and history will look kindly on the job that not just me, but an incredible coaching staff, an incredible group of guys, incredible ownership, incredible management, that put together something that was able to start a run, play a part in an incredible all time great run. So I'm honored to even be a piece of it.


That's what's up.


I still didn't answer you.


The question is, do you believe you was the architect?


We know what Kurt did. Shout out to Kurt and everybody else.


Listen, let me tell you something. Let me tell you something real quick to answer. And every time I see Mark for the last maybe six or seven years, I always remind. Know I bump into Mark periodically, maybe every two or three years, if that. But I remember Mark being on air, and I'm going to remind the people who didn't see this game because I was actually watching it live. And it's funny, little Wayne used what Mark said in a ball one time. Mark may not even heard the song, but little Wayne took one of Mark's lines and turned into a bar. So to answer Mark's question, because he's not going to say it, because he's that much of a gentleman, one day they was on air, and Jeff Van Gundy was about to come out his face to say something. Oh, well, he did come out his face and say something, said, yo. And this was maybe a year or two years after Mark had just finished coaching the Golden State warriors. And Jeff van Gundy said something to the extent. I'm not going to say verbatim, because I don't remember verbatim, but he says something to the extent of, mark, you did an exceptional job with these Golden State warriors.


Tremendous. But it's just something about Steve Kerr, when he coaches them, that has them doing something different from when you were doing it. And Mark said, what you're not going to do is, what you're not going to do is disrespect the caterpillar and rave about the bar. So that's the answer.


Can I be honest for a second?


Yes, sir.


Jeff and Gundy's family. And am I the only one that miss him on tv?


Yeah, absolutely.


A brilliant basketball mind and family to me, that was a lob to me. So that question that you said he gave, he gave it with the total intention of understanding that I was standing by the rim, two hands, waiting to catch it. So it was a set up, and it put me in position to put the line at use.


That's the shit we need behind the scenes right there to give us the inside. Because if you never told me that. I thought you was checking them. And that goes to show the brotherhood and the friendship that you two guys have. And yes, absolutely, we miss Jeffrey and Gundy and we also miss you too. So it's a pleasure to have you on the show because listen, man, I may do voiceovers for the championship this year. Just me, myself and me and Mace. Because I'm not digging what I'm hearing right now. I'm just going to be honest with you. So that's just us, man. Sorry. Sad. I know you have a couple more questions.


Okay, this is good discussion. Okay, so I'm curious because you prompted an NBA rule change called the Mark Jackson rule. Sometimes where you can't have your back to the basket for more than 5 seconds in the post. Do you think that rule changes fair? Even.


If you haven't noticed, I was slow as a basketball player. Nobody had a problem when those quick guards were crossing me over and going by and jab stepping and using their speed and athleticism to their strength and to the detriment of me as a defender. So why change a rule when I was able to capitalize and use the strength of me backing guys down and posting guys up? The one strength I had was eliminated. Guys like Charles Barkley used it to perfection also. So I was a little salty that the rule was changed. I understand that it wasn't as attractive watching the game, watching a slow footed, plotting, methodical basketball player post up away for a double team is not as entertaining as what we're watching today. But it took away my biggest strength.


Yeah, I mean, look, it's only 24 seconds on the shot clock, so at the end of the day, the ball is going to get shot anyway. And look, if that's your strength, I have to agree with you. If that's your strength, that's your strength. They didn't change the rule, but I remember them talking about they didn't want to do the hacker shack. I think they couldn't find a way to say, damn, we can't not foul Shaq or people are not good at free throws. When free throws are a part of the game, whether you're five foot three mugsy bowls or you're 77 manu bowl, you have to practice your free throws. And I remember them trying to figure out a way to stop the hackershack. I know they did the more than Shaq, but to me, if that's your skill set, that's your skill set. It's the other team's job to figure out how to make you not good at your skill set. That's my opinion on that.


You're right. Don't let them off the hook. Make free throws, and then we won't value.


Yeah, exactly. Okay.


And then before we get into the chunk of the show, my last question is, what was your reaction to Jaw's return? And then, do you think his sole return can bring the Grizzlies back on track?


They've dug themselves quite a hole being so far under 500. But I was thrilled to see job back as a former player, as a man, it's about redemption. It's about forgiveness. And has he made some mistakes? Absolutely. Hold yourself accountable and be better as a basketball player and more importantly, as a man. And it was so much fun watching last night, him back where he belonged on the basketball court, making spectacular plays, putting his team on his back, and ultimately hitting the game winning shot. That's what the league is all about, and it was fun to watch. I'm happy for him. I'm happy for his dad. I'm happy for his family.


Super, super dope. Yeah, we talked about it already.


Take all his nonsense off the floor to play that way in the game.


Listen, man, I said this mark yesterday when we talked about it. I said, listen for me, and I may be jumping the gun because. Listen, and I like the rule changes. I like the fact that you can't be all NBA if you miss more than 17 games. I like the fact that you can't be an all star if you miss a certain amount of know Adam Silver and the rest of the Joe Dumars and them guys are trying to find ways of guys cheating, so to speak, load management if they pinky nail, toenail hurts, all type of ways to stay out of the basketball game. But for me, I said solely, and I may be jumping the gun. I may have just been excited to see ja play, but I said, for me, after last night, if we're going category for category, he just went third team all NBA for me at point guards last night. Now, I may be jumping the gun. Of course we got Steph Curry, of course we got Luca in Dallas. But I will argue with you about any other point guard right now. Of course, I love Damien Lillard as well, and we have a few of us to discuss.


But for me, after one game, I put him at third and there's going to be a travesty that he won't be even eligible to make any of these all NBA teams. What do you think about that?


He's an incredible player. You can't put him at third after one game and even you know that. And you forgot Shay Gilchrist Alexander.


What he's doing, I like. Right? You're right.


It's an incredible group. To me, it's an all time great group of point guards in the league today. The level that they're playing at, it's tough to make any one of those teams. But Josh, certainly it's great to see him back and it's great to see him better hold and moving forward to being a better basketball player and a better man.


Well, you're right about that. I totally forgot about Shay. But let's not forget, Ja was second and third team the year before last. And last year he would have made it as well if he didn't get in all that trouble. So I'm not really jumping the gun. I mean, I'm jumping the gun because there's one game. Hold on.


You jumping the gun? He plays one game.


I'm definitely jumping the gun. You're absolutely right. I'm jumping the gun. But he has a history of making all NBA. And last year, with all that nonsense, he messed up about 30, 40 million not making all NBA last year. And he was on schedule to make all NBA. But you're right, I absolutely did forget about Shay and what he got going on. So I will say that I'm jumping the gun, but maybe I was just excited. I was excited. You got it. You got it, big bro. You got it. Understandable. So let's get into question, one last question before we get. Because me and Mace was talking about this, and this would go to somebody of your knowledge of being a coach. And to me, certain coaches have GM skills, which I'm pretty sure you have great GM skills and could still be a GM possibly one day, and a coach one day. When you look at the way that. How it's panned out so far for John Morant and Zion Williamson, we're saying, me and Mace was talking about this yesterday, of course, the year that they both got drafted, they went one and two.


I was saying there's no way you don't take Zion. Everybody and their mother would have took Zion. But Mace said, and I have to agree with him to a certain extent, that that's a GM's job to foresee. Is he going to be overweight? Is his body going to hold up? Will he be able to play 82 games, if not 82 games? 70, 75 games, as opposed to what Ja is doing whenever he's available to be on the court? What do you say to that as a potential GM or a potential coach, saying, if we're New Orleans, we could have got Ja instead of Zion. What do you think? Do you think New Orleans made the right decision?


Well, going back to that draft, I said it. They both were home run draft choices. You couldn't go wrong either way, but the way that the game was being played, you need a dynamic, permanent player to have sustained effectiveness moving forward. The best teams have a dynamic playmaker on the wing in the backcourt. So I would have taken John Morant with the number one pick. Not saying that now in hindsight, back then, I said it. Nothing against Zion Williamson, but the way that the game was going to be played moving forward. New Orleans took Zion Williams, a guy who's had an incredible start to his career. The one thing I would have done is I'm not looking at JA or Zion and determining the weight of what you talked about. I got to say, are we able as an organization to put this guy in the best possible position, to be in the best possible shape, to be able to play not just this year, but moving forward, ending up with a championship and a Hall of Fame jacket? So I got to understand, as an organization, are we qualified and equipped to help this guy?


And you can hold Zion accountable, but you can also hold the organization accountable. They've fallen short to a certain extent of putting him in the best position to be in the best possible shape. So there's enough blame to go around. But he's an incredible basketball player. One thing I love about him is the way he answers questions. He does not duck or dodge Bob or weed, stands in front of the microphone, answers the question. And when he could have got angry and upset of the comments made by him, by reporters or journalists or shows, he showed grace and love and acknowledged instead of trying to throw punches back.


He said, if it comes from a.


Place of love, I receive it and I thank you. And for the other ones, so be it. I love the way he conducts himself and he carries himself.


So how would you hold him accountable? Because I keep hearing that word, accountable. I still haven't gotten a definition yet.


I can remember playing for the Los Angeles Clippers years ago, and we had two guys, John Williams, who was an incredible basketball player, and Stanley Roberts, who was an incredible basketball player. But both guys fought weight issues.




Simply put, they get on the plane, you can't eat what other guys eat. You can't have dessert.


Let's be honest, sometimes you can't have.


Dessert, and it's coming from a place of love. Sometimes you got to be able to say no. And if you can't say no, I got to be able to look in eye and say, big fella, you know, you shouldn't be doing that. The same way that if a guy drives past me and my defense is awful and he dunks at the rim, you should be able to come to me and say, you got to be better. And if we're going to get to where we're going to get to, it takes teammates, coaches, general management, ownership staff to help this guy, put him in position to be in the best possible shape for us to win. And if you don't do that, you're hurting yourself. And as important, you're hurting me.


So what happens when you tell him you can't eat that and he still pause. He still shows up with the cake and he's still eating it on a plane. Where do you go from there?


The problem is not him eating desserts, because there's guys with championship rings and hall of Fame jackets that had more than their share of desserts. The problem is when you're missing games and you're not able to play because of an injury, because of in a situation, I don't know his or not, but you're overweight or out of shape in situations like that, you're hurting the basketball team. So that's the problem. If you can have a dessert and get me 30 and 15, I'll be the first to bring you some ice cream.


That's what's good point.


Can't argue with that. If you know you're not supposed to eat that dessert, don't eat that dessert. Now, let's get into the games. On Tuesday, the Warriors beat the Celtics 132 to 126 in an overtime win. So first, how did you feel about that game? Before we talk about the remarks to.


That game.


That was a great game. It was exciting. It had you on the edge of your chair watching the game, watching the incredible shot making from elite talent on the basketball floor. And it was fun to watch. It was also fun to watch from a strategic standpoint, from coaching standpoint, timeouts, adjustments, out of timeout plays down the stretch, whether to trap, whether to rotate all of those things that you look for in a high end basketball game. It did not disappoint.


Steph Curry's nice. That's just that at the end of the.


Is that breaking news?


Dirty is not really news.


Well, you got a firm grasp on the obvious, Mace. You have a firm grasp on the obvious. So at the end of the day. Let me make my comments. Is ja nice? Is that breaking news to John Moran? Is nice. This is, what if I want to say Steph Curry's nice? Listen, there's plenty of times you look at Steph Curry as good as he is and you'd be like, God damn. But to me, it's more about when are the Celtics going to step up? And I know this is a regular season game. They're first place in the east, at least last time I checked. Is this Jason? And they just gave the bag to Brown. And if they gave Brown the bag, they're going to give Tatum the bag. I'm asking you, Mace, is this the two players that are going to ever get over the hump? What? I don't like that, Tatum said. I want you to answer it. What I don't like, what Tatum said during the offseason is we still young. We got time. I didn't like that. I want now I need, now I don't need. Yo, we got Tom, yo.


Niggas is six nine and six seven, athletic, could shoot, kill, and when it's time to perform on the biggest dance floor, you all don't do it. I'm sorry, Mace. To be long.


They always go vanishing. Look at the stats. You say the obvious, but it is very obvious because this is what normally happened. He ends up with about 15 points or so as Tatum. Tatum is not supposed to be at no. 15, especially against the team that stopped you from getting your championship. You supposed to, every time you see them, punish this team. Every time he plays against Golden State, he's supposed to punish them. Because if it wasn't for Golden State, he would have a ring right now.


I like that answer. Mark, what do you think about Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum? Dynamic duo, so to speak. Me and Mace both picked Milwaukee to go to the Eastern Conference finals. We said that Boston could get to the Eastern Conference finals if Porzingis stays healthy, which he has a history of not staying healthy. But what do you think about Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown getting the Boston Celtics to the mountaintop? Do you think these two could ever get it done?


Well, I love both of them and their impact on the basketball game and winning. They can score. The versatility of getting to the cup, shooting from the three point line, versatility. Defensively, to me, the thing that I would point to is the comment that you talked about being the time and how much time they have. Dan Marino made it to the Super bowl in his rookie year and didn't get back right? He could be foolish enough to think he had time. You never promised that. I played 17 years in the NBA, a bunch of very good teams, and made it to the NBA Finals one time. When you have an opportunity to take care of business, take care of business, or you'll be looking back, regretting it from there. For from that point, moving back. Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum are two of the elite talents in this league. They got to, again, hold each other accountable. They got to be willing to take and make big time shots and big time plays. It doesn't just mean finishing at the cup. It may mean I got Steph Curry and making sure he's not winning this basketball game.


So it's not just about what you're doing offensively, it's about what you're doing in between those lines for 48 minutes. Put your team in position to win. It starts with your best players and it trickles down from there.


That's what I agree with right there.


Now you want to take Mark? Take.


I was definitely about to say that because, you know.




Do you want to hear what part.


I was talking about?


I'm going to let you say it's been three times Mark says something doing this whole thing, and you keep looking at me like he's validating my expertise. No, I'm just saying, like, you act like you've been saying shit that Mark been saying all these weeks now.




Don'T know what you keep looking at.


Maybe you'll hear from Mark. They don't listen to you. Somebody else comes and say the same exact thing, and now it's like.


First of all, I've not heard you say anything that Mark said this whole time about accountability. I never disagree with you about accountability.


He was saying the same thing.


I don't have a problem with you if you said the same thing with Mark. But don't look at me unless I disagree with you, unless I totally disagree with you. Don't hit me with the.


No, the part that I was thinking about that you shared, which is the real paramount part, is the defense is really when Jalen Brown is going to have to decide to guard Stephen Curry. That's where their championship is. Even when they get against Damien Lillard, it's going to boil down to, can somebody stop the other team? And Tatum is going to have to be willing to do that. The same way he applied that pressure to KD, he's going to now have to apply that pressure to either Damon Lillett or Curry.


Well, the way Golden State is looking, I don't think he have to worry about that in any NBA championship. And at the end of the day, it's not guaranteed that Boston is going to make it to the championship either. I think the east is pretty much up for grabs with three teams and Philly, Milwaukee and Boston. I would say to me, Milwaukee still has the biggest advantage because to me they still haven't figured it out and they're second place. It seems like Yanis gets 60, Damien Lillick gets twelve, Damien Lillicks gets 40, Yanis gets 15. They're still figuring it out and they still are in second place. So if they ever do figure it out and if Chris Middleton, if you decide to show back up anytime soon, it's APB out.


Your money.


Yeah, you got your money. If you decide to come back anytime soon, we'll be happy to.




I'm sorry, a great point because when you look at that Milwaukee Bucks team, it's Giannis is Dame, the wild card is Chris Middleton. When they were effective winning the championship, Chris Middleton was a guy they can trust putting the ball in his hands.


Down the stretch of ball. We both said that.


But I got.


A grasp on the obvious what he's saying. I'm just looking at me. Chris Middleton's the wild card. You could pick up mark down the.


Stretch of ball games. They put the ball in his hands, whether it be pick and roll, whether it be isolation. He made plays for them, taking pressure off of the home run, hitting.


That's what's up.


And then last question before we go to break. Shaq posed a question that is up for debate. He said, is it time to start putting Steph Curry in the conversation as one of the best players ever? What do you think?


No. That ship has sailed. Steph Curry, without a doubt, is one of the all time greats. That's not breaking news. He is the best shooter of all time and he is one of the all time great players that has ever touched the basketball. He is a joy to watch and the thing that I love about him is he's in the best shape of any professional athlete I ever seen. His ability to run around constantly, sacrifice his body. I can be honest with you, two points or three points is not that important to me to be running around like a fool waiting to get a wide open look. I'd rather have the ball at the top and see Reggie Miller running through different screens to get open rather than be the one doing that. That takes a lot of energy, effort and commitment. And Steph Curry is absolutely lights out as an offensive weapon because you got to guard him at all times.


You know what? Enough with the roundabout. Let's narrow it.


Who is the best?


Is he a top five? All time? Best players in the top five ever? This is what Shaq is saying. Shaq is like, best ever. So is he in your top five? Your top five? Because the thing about it is to me. I'm sorry.


No, go ahead.


No, what I was going to say is that to me, different age groups have different top fives as well. You got people that's older than me will be like, well, there's no way you can't put Kareem Abdul Jabbar because Kareem Abdul Jabbar is a great talent. Or Bill Russell, so to speak. Like, Bill Russell isn't in my top five because I didn't have the privilege of seeing him. But his stats are outstanding to where other people that may be older than me and Mace and that, of course, may have seen him play and be like, how y'all not going to put Bill Russell in? You've never seen a whole game? Never. You've never seen a whole game? Never in your life.


You don't know what I've seen.


I know you ain't see that. I know you've never seen a whole game. It may not even be a whole game of Bill Russell available unless you are part of the Boston Celtics franchise. I don't think it's a whole Bill Russell game. Who they play?


Mason, I don't have time for did.


Of course you did. Is Steph Curry in your top five of all time?


Mark, to me, it's not really fair to answer that question because Steph Curry.


Back to the basket. This is why they had to make the rule.


Mark Nell is going to answer the question. This is why they made. Mark.


As I was saying before I was so rudely interrupted, Steph Curry's book is far from over. It's incomplete right now. It'd be disrespectful to me to talk about his greatness and put a number on where he fits in the all time greats. He is one of the greatest players that's ever touched the basketball and he still has work to do. It'd be disrespectful to me that guys have completed their journeys and have a body of work to insult them by excluding them. He is one of the all time greats and I'm comfortably stating that never.


See nobody this good. You're good, Mark. This dude is one of the best ever. Hold on. Top ten right now. Not done.


I'm going to reiterate what I said. Basketball players in the history of the game.


I'm going to answer for Mark. If Stephen Carey gets another championship, we got to make him the best point guard ever.


I don't know. I'm not going to say that, so to speak.


If he wins another championship, yes.


If he wins another one, I got to put him before magic. And I don't put nobody before magic, you know what I'm saying? But if he wins one more, I got to go on the record. Because the reason why I put magic up there is because how he changed the game and everything like that. When you think of Stephen Curry, it is nobody that has played in the NBA that he didn't change the game as much as they did. No matter who you're talking about, from Wilt Chamberlain to magic, the whole game is different, just like it was different in their time. And that's why I say that he's totally changed it. Kids are not even trying to do layups. They're trying to shoot from half court.


I'm not going to sit here and argue against Steph Curry. What I will say is Magic Johnson changed the game and there's a six one point guard to play with the Detroit Pistons that changed the game. Winning back to back championships and doing it to the tune of his own music. Steph Curry is one of the all time great players in the history of this game and his book is incomplete thus far.


You know what I've learned? I'm going to be translated like that. What I've learned is that I'm just going to translate for Mark. And what Mark told you is watch your mouth. The translation is watch your mouth and don't be disrespectful.


Are you doing the remix?


Yeah. You're so good. You're so diplomatically, no pun intended, correct. That we got translation. Watch your mouth. And let me tell you something to your point real quick, Mark, before we go to break, I know sad is like, we got to go to break in a minute. But one last thing. Wash your mouth. I like the way me and Mace had the pleasure of hanging out with Isaiah Thomas for about, well, I don't know. We did some sun games last season and I think he does some consultation for the Suns or whatever his position is over there. And we hung out with him and this is the time that he was telling us about how you don't get your credit, but, you know, Zeke. Shout to Lord Zeke. Zeke was like, yo, I'm the best point guard ever. Me and Mace was like, ever. But he got a serious face on. He like, yo, what point guard, you know better. So now I'm scared because now his face, he's dead serious. So I'm like, you think you better magic Johnson? He said, you make me 69 and you give me Kareem and you make him six one and you give him John Sally and you see who's the best point guard ever.


I didn't have those weapons. This, that and the third. So in Isaiah Thomas's mind, only person he gave a little bit more credit, and I'm not even going to say more credit. He said, nate Archibald Tiny doesn't get the credit he deserves. But he said, is no point guard ever better than him, including magic Johnson.


You know, it's funny you mentioned that because I can remember years ago going up to Isaiah and saying to him, I just want to tell you, as a former player and a guy that faced you and faced some of the greats ever, I believe that you are the second greatest point guard to ever play the game. Only trailing Magic Johnson, who I have as number one. I'm thinking I just gave him the ultimate compliment. He rolled his eyes at me.


Now I understand what it was all about. He had a whole attitude.


He said if he was six nine with Kareem, you wouldn't even know magic.


That's a fact. And he said magic was six one with John Sally and Bill Lamb. Like May said, he said, you would have never heard of him. So shout to Lord Zeke. Shout to Isaiah. I'm not arguing with Isaiah because Isaiah almost wants to fight about it, to be honest with you.


Okay, so we're going to go to break and when we return, we will talk about the sun's loss to the Blazers.


She calls sing about toxic. Four years and counting got you feeling like options. Maybe I'm my own problem babe she's out of here and I don't know my stubborn and me won't fall dealing with this thing called trial but she really thinking might want to be free why my head is when you wait.


Welcome back. So let's get into our underdog fantasy picks of the day. Tonight the Wizards will play the Trailblazers. Underdog fantasy has Kyle Kuzma at 24 and a half points. Do you have him higher or lower? Mace?


Is this including like rebounds and assists and all that?




Just points. 24?


Yeah, and a half.


Pause. I'm going to go lower time and.


They playing the Trailblazers? Yeah, both these niggas ain't shit. I don't even know why we picked this for Underdog. Fancy. Look, you know what? I got a problem, man.


Underdog make you play, though?


Yeah, no, I'm going to go under, too. It may be over them even. One of these teams play great defense. Who knows if they feel like playing.


Tonight if they got their baddies in the stand.


Kuzma, his wife is, or his girlfriend's my home girl. Shout out to Winnie Harlow, supermodel, good friend of mine. With that being said, if they got the baddies in the crowd tonight, who really knows if they want to play?


Winnie might get all the shots. That's what I was thinking.


Yeah. I have no idea. But I don't even know why we picked this game. I know it's a dame. Not too stat. It's on the books for underdog. So we have to pick. I'm going to go lower. I won't be watching so you all can let me know exactly what happened. I wish I would waste my two and a half hours on that. I can't get back to watch these two teams that don't put any effort in to get my time under, probably on everything, but go ahead. Dang.


Jordan Poole is at 25 and a half. Points, rebounds and assists. Do you have them higher?


Jordan Pool, you know why I got a problem with John Pool? Because you sat there and watched greatness. And I have to give credit to. I've seen it take the Gilbert arena set. So I want to give Gilbert Arenas a lot of credit for what I'm about to say. And I thought about it when Gilbert Arenas said this. He said, you sat there and watched the greatness of Steph Curry. You've seen the work ethic every day. You see what it takes to win a championship. You seen what it took for him to come back from injury because that's how Jordan Poole started getting the shine when Steph was hurt. You see what work Clay Thompson had to put in the Draymond green, et cetera. And you're not transferring that to Washington. You're not instilling that in yourself along with your other teammates. You're worrying about ice spice. What's the other little shorty who was at the game?


Ruby Rose.


I knew stat. New little Ruby Rose. This is the shit that he's worrying about. I'm going to go higher because I don't know Ruby Rose is going to be there tonight. If it's a bad girl that he invited to the game, then it might be. I'm go over because I'm assuming maybe Ruby Rose or somebody of that nature may be there.


And you know, another thing about I'm going to go over as well, but another thing I thought about with Jordan Poole. So, you know, I just don't have firm grasps on the obvious is that when you're playing with so many other great players, people have to guard you one on one. That's what's happening to him. Because he was surrounded with so many other players. He was getting a shot. That's the one on one shot. Now that he's the man, people are doubling him and people are preparing for him better and he's not getting his shots. He's not getting the looks that he would get on that Golden State team.


This sounds good, but I wouldn't know because I haven't.


Like when you play with other elite players, it's like, oh, I could go crazy because you can't afford the double now. You're the guy, you're the Stephen Curry and everybody's preparing for you and he don't know what to do with that.


I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I just said I haven't watched. I wouldn't know.


And he's on DC. So the girls are a little bit more ratchet. It's not as laid back as Golden State. So he's under warfare right now.


Are you calling DC Ratchet? Is that what you're doing? Are you calling the girls? That's wild, disrespectful.


Chocolate city. I would know.


Better than the new mason.


DC is too tough for a light skin nigga. I'm just keeping it real because all of the chocolate girls are looking for the light skinned dude. He the only light skinned guy there.


Who'S my light skinned, but go ahead.


But he's taken.


That's true.


So he's getting all of the focus.


I don't know who's on Washington Wizards besides them two players. They won't give my time to further notice. DC, I have nothing to do with that.


My name is Mason. I stand by this message.


I have no problem with that. Listen, first of all, DC, we cool. First of all, you know, niggas clap me in DC, they still think I'm Rico. They shot me in my Lamborghini talking about, yeah, Rico, DC, we good.


Want to go to a game?


So you said it.




King with me.




And Deandre Ayan is at twelve and a half rebounds. Do you have him higher or lower?


Deandre Ain? Yeah, eight and a half rebounds.


Twelve and a half.


No, lower.


Pause. I don't even know which team that nigga play for. Which one got shipped out of Phoenix. I'm like, damn, you just asked the question. I'm like, damn, which team is he on?


Lower, bro. Lower.


Absolutely lower.


This was such an. Now you're trying to take it. Okay, download the underdog fantasy app and you can make your picks, too. We are joined back with our special guest, Mark Jackson. Okay, so we got two more before we close the show. Also on Tuesday, the Suns lost to the Blazers 109 to 104. The Suns are 10th in the west. Were the Suns a team you expected to be at this point? Why or why not, Mark?


First, I expected them to be much better, which is disappointing. I think if they're honest with themselves, it would feel the same exact way. Not at full strength. Bradley Beal has missed the bulk of the season so far early on, but if you told me I have Kevin Durant and Devin Booker, I would find a way to win ball games that they have found a way to lose. Again. It's accountability. It's being better defensively, and it's one through twelve going out and getting the job done. To me, I am disappointed in the early season results that the Suns have brought thus far.


Excuse me, Nick.


Close up.


Did I say that or not? Did I say that yesterday?


And to Mark's point, Mark said, win your matchup. They're winning their matchup, mark. What do you got to say about that? Both of them are winning their matchup and they're still losing. Kevin Durant had 40 and Booker had 26.


When you're talking about great players is more than winning your matchup. It's about getting that extra rebound, getting that extra. Stop taking the challenge defensively. Whatever the team needs in the absence of Bradley Beal, in the absence of the third star, they got to find a way to win ball games. Right now, the Portland Trailblazers are not a better team than the Phoenix Suns, and to lose a game against a team that is still trying to find themselves is disappointing when you're trying to. The goal for the Portland Trailblazers is to be competitive and build something. The goal for the Phoenix Suns is to win a championship, and if they fall short of that, they will be disappointed. So to me, I'm not satisfied with losing a close game to the Portland Trailblazers. They have to be better.


I have zero to say because I said the same thing yesterday morning. It might have been verbatim, Mark. It might have been totally verbatim so I have nothing to say. Okay.


And lastly, free agents John Wall and Austin Rivers hosted a workout with almost 15 NBA teams in attendance. Off the top of your head, what teams do you think could really benefit from them?


To me, it depends on the shape and condition they're in and how willing they are to fulfill a role. That role may be bring scoring power off the bench. That role may be to be a veteran leader, sitting on the bench, not playing, but saying the right thing, depositing into other guys the right ways to go about winning ball games, being an extension of the coach on the bench, in the locker room, on the plane, on the bus, that's valuable to me. And I think that's something that's missing when you're talking about guys like Austin Rivers, when you're talking about John Wall, even a guy like Isaiah Thomas, the young Isaiah Thomas, you can have valuable guys that have had success in this league that can bring something to the table, that's an extension of the coach, that puts teams in position to win ball games.


Let me ask you this, Mark. Do you think their ship is sailed? Do you think that a team will pick either one of these players up? I think me personally and just my opinion, I think John Wall is a great talent. I thought it would work out with him. With the Clippers last year, obviously it didn't. And with Austin Rivers, I think he's a great, like 7th man off the bench. But sometimes my opinion is, and I could be totally wrong, sometimes you're just too opinionated when you're not a good enough player to be opinionated when he's not playing, he says, you shouldn't be doing this or this person isn't shit or the league isn't doing anything about that, and sometimes that may hinder your comeback. Just my opinion. I don't have any knowledge of this. What do you. Yeah, because he's very opinionated. And I'll be like, maybe you should shut up, bro. If you're trying to come back in the league, you know what I'm saying? Unless you're trying to go off and start a new career after basketball, you should chill. Because I see him in the summertime and I can't remember verbatim, he was just going off about a bunch of different players, a bunch of different things.


The league isn't doing Xyz, so on and so forth. Do you think that's a detriment to maybe his comeback mark?


I think it goes points the finger directly to how secure you are as an organization as an owner, as management, as a coach, how secure you are. I think these guys bring something valuable to the table if monitored the proper way. A guy like Jamal Crawford, who's an ultimate pro, you're telling me he can't sit on the bench, stay ready and guide and teach and nurture and be an echo of what the coach is saying every single night? It is valuable. Look at the New York Knicks. They picked up Todd's Gibson. Todd Gibson is not, I say this with respect, he's not winning ball games today, but he's not going to cost you anything. And he's a valuable asset to the culture that's being established. You need guys like that night in and night out.


Yo, Mark, I'm going to just ask the real question. What does Austin Rivers do? Like, I know doc Rivers. I love, you know, Atlanta, New York. But what exactly does Austin Rivers bring.


To the, well, he has size at the guard position. He can score coming off the bench. He can also defend. So to me, he does bring something to the table. I got no problem with the talent of think it's, I'll be honest with you, the Golden State warriors are not the golden State warriors today. Forget about what I did and what people give me credit for. If you didn't have guys like Jared, Jack, Carl Landry, Jermaine O'Neill, you can go on and on.


Jack is better than Austin Rivers.


Yeah, but I'm not talking about the talent. I'm talking about holding guys accountable and making sure that the coach's voice doesn't get stale because they were echoing and preaching the same gospel that we were preaching about the culture and winning ball games. It's not about the talent. 15 guys can't play. It's about making sure that end of that bench is tight so they're making sure they're ready and prepared to play. And the message is consistent, one through 15. Those guys are so valuable in this league.


Well, I have to say this, Mark.


Is that you're going to interpret what I'm saying.


Can I say what I was going to say?




What I was going to say is this, because today was super dope. Like everything you've done, the knowledge you brought to the table and everything, it's so sad that we have to go out disagreeing after, disagree with Mace because Austin Rivers is trash. All right? I don't care. What about this size 15? Stay stable on the bench, accountability, and he'd be a great player. It's so sad that we have to disagree going out and I have to agree with Mace. That boy trash. Stay behind the microphone, man. You got a better shot. It's a dub for you, bro. Forget about it. You go wash John wall, you got a better chance. Sorry, Mark. We got to end the show like this because it was such a lovely time. But I got to agree with Mace. Austin Rivers is trash, bro. Sorry. He said all of united.


Cam, you really have a grasp on.


We appreciate you being here, man. And we look forward to seeing you again, if not through the holidays, after the new year, man. And also, Mark, you have a new show coming out next year. Do you have a name for it yet? And do you want to tell anything you want people to know about it?


Absolutely. I want to say congrats to you guys. Nothing but love and respect partnering up with you guys and it's an honor and a thrill and a privilege to do business together.


Thank you.


Two guys are legends and stat. What you're doing is legendary. I salute you guys and I'm glad to now call you family. Thank you. The show will be titled with all due.


Respect. Yes, sir. Thank you, Mark, so much for being here. And everybody make sure we'll keep everybody updated for the next time Mark's going to be on the show and when his own show will be dropping. Mark, salute. We appreciate you so much, man.


Appreciate y'all. Thanks again.


Thank you.


Thank you. We're all definitely looking forward to it, but that's all the time we have for today. Thanks for watching. And as always, it is what it.


Is like when they doing them two for five in a drive through.