This is JoCo podcast number two fifty nine with me, JoCo Willink the a one year arrived just as the team started taking incoming mortar fire. Godwyn quickly calculated the coordinates for the mortar's location and and the information was passed on to Covey, who in turn related to the is a laconic whistling voice came back down the line. It's crispy critter time, so y'all keep your heads down. Within seconds, the area in front of the team exploded into flame, the deadly napalm coating everything and it's erupting path flaming and VA soldiers ran briefly toward the team before falling to the ground.

An agonizing death throws the hand grenades and ammunition they carried cooking off like firecrackers. Unfortunately, the elephant grass was also set on fire. The napalm had definitely slowed the VA advance, but it had not stopped it. Covey reported that extraction extraction choppers were five minutes out and the team needed to move fast to gun ships from the Seventh Air Cav roared over the Elzy.

Watkins put out two bright orange marker panels and the gunships confirmed they had the team in sight. As they loop back to make their first strafing run, the gunships reported that a large enemy force was moving toward the Elzy and they were going to attempt to discourage it as they made their run. Pouring M sixty machine gun fire and rockets into the enemy, Artie Lyon could see the air filled with green tracers hitting the helicopters. They were taking a vicious beating, but they hung in there and kept pouring fire down on the VA.

It was an incredible show of raw guts and determination. covid came on the radio to say the gunships had taken casualties and were leaking fuel oil, hydraulic fluid and just about everything else. So they were being forced to head home, but the extraction slicks were on station. Artie Lyon looked around and could see it, salvation coming toward it on its nose.

Although they were flying at a good clip, it appeared as if they were moving at an agonizingly slow speed. As with the gunships before them, they were taking a horrendous amount of fire. One chopper was hit badly and began losing fuel. After a brief confab, the rescue package suddenly broke off its approach and headed back the way it had come, leaving nothing but smoke. And Artie Lyons hopes for rescue behind.

When Watkins asked Covey what this meant in terms of time on the ground, all harnessed could do was say that he'd contact these three and ask for a new set of extraction assets ASAP. In the meantime, he promised to get more taxpayer support over the team and do all he could to keep them alive. While Watkins appreciated the sentiments, this did not do much to raise his spirits in his heart of hearts. He felt the team's position was precarious and likely to get much worse and quickly.

The EVA had literally thousands of men it could throw at the team, while the team had only so much ammunition and not much by way of cover. What he told his team members, however, was that there was going to be a slight delay and reminded them to keep vigilant and be ready for an attack.

What he didn't have the heart to tell them was it could be hours before another rescue attempt was made. Their stay at Oscar eight was far from over.

One of the blue suddenly signaled that EVA troops were crawling toward the team through the elephant grass. The news was passed on to Covey, who responded that he had to a one standing by, one loaded with Qaboos and the other with rockets. Both aircraft had their deadly twenty millimeter cannons locked and loaded. Watkins told covid to bring in the KBOO as fast as possible and to lay it down as close to the team as they could get. In less than two minutes, the team saw on a one e appear front in front of their position, its twenty millimeter cannons roaring away.

It flew so low they could see the pilot turn his head to locate the team as he released his ordnance. Unfortunately, some of the mini bombs exploded so close to Artie Lyon that to Brew received light wounds. This was distressing. But Watkins consider it one of the acceptable prices a recon team paid to keep from being overrun by a superior force.

As the A1 EZ departed, a small group of Inva suddenly rose up out of the grasp behind the team and charged them AK forty seven blazing on full automatic de descender. His red communist star facing forward rose up and opened fire at near point blank range. The Brue joined in as other groups of Inva popped up from the elephant grass and attempted assault after assault. What followed was several hours of deadly cat and mouse, with the mouse hunkered down in its little hole and the EVA cat making paw swipe after swipe, an attempt to claw it out or do it in an ironic situation for the team to find itself in while our.

He lion fended off attacks covid directed airstrike after airstrike at the NBA troops, the storage area, the anti-aircraft guns and anything else he could draw a bead on throughout the day, primary and secondary explosions followed one another as the strikes found their mark. Whenever the team's fate, whatever the team's fate, might turn out to be, the VA were paying a hellacious price for messing with it, with daylight, ammunition and ideas running out.

It was like a true message from God when Watkins heard Covey report that South Vietnamese Air Force two hundred nineteen Special Operations Squadron had one of its legendary king bees and root for once Watkins' spirits actually rose.

Not that he didn't love the living daylights out of the Seventh Air Cav, but the Vietnamese of the two hundred and nineteenth had time after time after time, proving themselves to be about the most daring, most imaginative, most aggressive and all around finest pilots on the face of the globe.

If Artie Lyon had any chance of getting out of this hell hole, a king bee pilot was the one who would find it and exploit it, no matter how slight the chance was or how deadly the odds that was simply what they were pledged and committed to doing day after day.

More good news followed when Covey relayed that the Lone King Bee would be escorted by Marine gunships from h. M l three sixty seven. A bad bunch of flyers that went by the code named Scarface.

Things were definitely going to rock and roll with them on station. Scarface enjoyed nothing more than kicking and va butt and taking names and then coming back around to kick more. But just for good measure on general principle and for the sheer fun of it. However, Covey splashed a healthy dose of cold water on Waukegan's by reminding him it was very nearly dark and that despite all the bombs dropped, rockets fired and gun runs made, the enemy was still pumping out an enormous amount of fire and still moving forward.

Pulling our tea lion out of Oscar. It was going to be as difficult and dangerous and extraction as could be imagined, and they would have just one chance to pull it off if they muffed it. Artie Lyon would be spending the night and would most likely not see the next morning. Sobering information indeed. But Watkins did not want to discourage his team, so he just gave them his best grin and said, let's get ready to go.

In the distance, Walkman's could hear the distinctive sound of the old nine Piston Sikorsky H thirty for King B chugging its way along a steady bass note to the higher womp, womp womp of the Hughie's. He squinted into the twilight and when he could finally make out their dim silhouettes, he flashed his strobe through the barrel of an M seventy nine grenade launcher so as to mask it from enemy sight.

The helicopters acknowledged having Artie Lyons Mark and the Hughie's immediately divided and made a split run, one raking the teams forward perimeter with rockets and machine gun fire and the other working its rear. It was a beautiful show.

Watkins yelled over the noise to blow all the claymores by setting off all the claymores at once. He hoped to avoid having any uninvited and join the team. They went off in a deafening blast and blinding flash.

The little mouse that roared as the Scarface duo looped around to make their second final run.

They confirmed there were dozens of dead and dying NVE scattered around within feet of the bomb crater. Unfortunately, they also saw more troops advancing. It was down to the short strokes as the Scarface gunships began their last pass. The King Bee tucked itself in behind them and came roaring on. But rather than sat down outside the crater and have the team come to him, as Watkins fully expected, the pilot pulled up and hovered over the crater as the team looked up in disbelief.

The old age. Thirty four warbird began gently settling itself down toward the team like a mother hen about to cover her chicks, thus also discreet, decreasing the silhouette to enemy troops by the light of the burning elephant grass, Watkins was able to see into the King Bees cockpit and was startled to find the co-pilot seat empty.

In the pilot's seat was his much admired friend captain on a man who had saved Watkins Bacon on many other occasions, but none quite like what he faced here at Oscar eight.

Captain on lowered his can be toward the team with a precision and steadiness that gave an entirely new meaning to the word cool. His face was smooth and calm, but there was steel in his eyes. As he worked both feet and hands to maneuver, the chopper's close to our line, as he could at one point, Watkins could have sworn that all nodded to him as if in a casual greeting, the whole scene bordered on surrealistic. What would the Elzy lit by a flickering brush fire?

The sounds of gunfire and explosions, the smell of cordite and burned human flesh and this improbable savior hovering above.

As Watkins had experience before the action took on a dreamlike quality sounds faded, as if someone turned down the volume, the air thickened movement appeared to be in slow motion and the brain snapped individual frames that would never, ever be forgotten. The looks of fear or pain on their faces, bodies being blasted backward, a piece of someone on the ground, a scrap of Kroloff one's own hand, clutching a weapon or shaking wildly as it tries to execute some simple, well rehearsed but now impossibly difficult task.

This is what war looks like to a mind.

Under stress, Watkins could hear small arms fire thumping into the King Bee's body as he fully expected that at any moment it would either pull up an exit or come crashing down on them. But it did neither. It's settled into a stationary hover, its front wheels placed delicately inside the crater.

And there it sat, an unbelievable vision, a heroic portrait of an old warrior taking a pounding but refusing to falter.

Watkins' disorder at Godwyn begin heaving the brew into the chopper Godwyn followed to set up after taking an anxious, anxious look at his team leader was next, his bright red star pointed over his right ear as if he wasn't quite sure whether he wanted to be going or staying.

Finally, in accordance with that time honored tradition, the one zero feet were the last to leave the killing ground of Oscar eight, with the door gunner and team pouring small arms fire and seventy nine rounds into the perimeter beyond its rim, the king be lifted up and out of the crater.

As a last defiant gesture, Watkins threw a red smoke grenade onto the Elzy. This gesture was universally understood by everyone who supported SOGGE to signal that the team was safely out. The Elzy clear and everyone else was free to pound the living daylights out of it.

But RCTI line was not home free. Not yet, at least. Anti-aircraft rounds were bursting around them like a World War Two Achak fire captain on was dipping and juking in an effort to dodge the dodge the bursts and make himself harder to track. He still looked calm, cool and collected as if you were making a routine flight for these guys. Fort Watkins. Maybe this was a routine flight. When the King Bee touched down a case on disorder, Godwyn and the grinning door gunner walked around poking their fingers into bullet holes and counting them.

But they soon gave up. There were too many. And besides, it was just too unsettling, unsettling to contemplate what might have been. Watkins' learned later that Captain On had chosen to fly solo in the Oscar eight because he knew exactly how dangerous this mission was. He lost king bees there before and was determined not to risk more lives than necessary.

He figured if the gods ordained that his ship go down while trying to save our lion, it would just be him and the door gunner.

It seemed like a simple and perfectly logical decision.

No big deal. Incredibly, everyone who participated in the mission was alive and well.

The men of our line were home seasoned veterans of Oscar eight. It had indeed been their time after all.

So that is. That is a whole different kind of heroism. Because, look, when you're on the ground, in many cases, you don't even have a choice but to be a hero, you either step up or you die. But for these pilots.

Men like Captain on, they don't really have to do anything heroic, they could easily say that the landing zone is too hot or they've already been shot or the low on fuel or whatever.

But they're safe in their aircraft and they see the hell that is going on and they see the hell that they are going into bullets and rockets and anti-aircraft and they go anyway.

They go anyway, men like Captain Nguyen Key on a pilot in the South Vietnamese Air Force who flew countless missions, insanely dangerous missions in support of American and South Vietnamese SOG teams.

He's a recipient of the Silver Star and the Distinguished Flying Cross. And it is an absolute honor to have captain on with us here to talk about his experiences fighting in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. Captain on. It's an absolute honor to have you here. Thank you.

And I guess also joining us once again is John Striker, Maior Till, Special Forces member of SOGGE, who has been on this podcast before.

Couple couple of times.

One eighty one eighty one one two one eighty six with the Frenchman to forty seven to forty eight.

And the last one with cowboy con cowboy to fifty eight back again.

They are so much.

And, and when you first came on after the first couple of times people started asking almost immediately to if I could find a king bee pilot. And I know as soon as you know, you very quickly mentioned the captain on always. No one can be for sure. Thank you.

So so tell us about what it was like growing up. Where did you grow up?

Uh, I was up at, uh, Hanoi, not Vietnam.

And, uh, my father decided to move the family to the South in 1954.

That was that after after the French got beat. Yeah. So did your father kind of recognize the bad things could happen? And what did your father do for a living?

Uh, you mean before fifty five. Fifty four. Oh, he has, uh, some kind of business to cut the lumber like a log. Yeah. OK. And he he he hired people to do it, but he, uh organized the uh the office and uh after uh before we moved down to the south and he worked for, uh, one of the, uh, French company or he worked for a French company.

Yeah. OK. Up to Photofit before I moved to the south. OK, and what did you do.

How old were you when you moved to the south?

Oh, I was 11, 11 years old. Yeah. And then my my my my um. My father's and my cell and my brother, my younger brother at uh that time he was ten and uh two prior to the uh with uh, one of the friend to the south.

Now did you have any understanding of what was happening with the Communists in North Vietnam? Did you have any understanding of that yet?

Oh, but, uh, before we go to, uh, we went to the south and, uh, I remember I, uh, at night, I sleep next to my, uh, my father and, uh, he was, uh, uh, uh, criticizer watching me, uh, because my, uh, oldest brother was killed in, uh, forty five and uh, when he was seventeen, OK. Yeah.

By the communists. By the Communists.

So once you got down to South Vietnam, now you're eleven years old. And what what did you did you were you just going to school.

Yes, I did. And since the uh we move around all the time, I know. To, uh, Haiphong and then go to the south and uh, I myself and, uh, and my brother next to me, we try to make to grade in one year.

You try to make what one. You're too great. Oh yeah.

Were you able to do it. Yeah. OK, we did nice.

Nice.

And uh uh in the city, uh, 60 to 62. Yeah. I was on the Air Force and, uh, my brother, he, uh, got the scholarship from UCLA and he went here too.

So in nineteen sixty two is when you joined the Air Force. Yes. And and once you join the Air Force, did you know you were going to be a pilot. Yes. OK. I didn't believe it will be because I couldn't ride the car, I couldn't ride a good airplane, an airplane, a bus, because every time I got in the car, I still got to come up to my mom.

Of course, she trains every year. We get. Yeah, that's that's not fun. But eventually you were able to get over that.

Yes. The first time my, uh, i.p he, uh, demonstrated the, uh, engine as in the that they said and uh and I thought, well I feel my my style must come up a bit.

Oh my God. How the I can fly. But later on I get is with it. Right.

And, uh, I like it.

I know that they have something for American pilots and I don't know if they made you do this. They have something where if you get air sickness, they have something. I think it's in Texas, it's called spin and puke. And they basically put you in this machine every day and it spins you around and makes you sick until you get used to it.

Really? Yep. Oh yeah.

So I guess you didn't do that. No. You didn't have to go to the spin and keep one on a rotation. Helped.

So how long were you in the Air Force before you started training to become a pilot.

When I sign in the Air Force uh in uh lady sixty two and uh and uh formally it was on uh then the first of a sixty three.

OK, and uh I was uh the uh basic military, uh training in the fall and also the ESL for six months. And uh in uh in July sixty three. I uh this uh I was sent here to get a tiny. So you came to America. Yeah.

And get the uh yes. Again training in Australia. In San Antonio.

OK, yeah.

So so you go to San Antonio to first to learn how to speak English, uh, in uh, in Vietnam.

Oh OK. Well, and I, uh, got the, uh, military, uh, military training entity, uh, ESL English training for six months. And then and, uh, I went to uh uh to San Antonio, Texas, a while, another four months, uh, ESL English, uh, ringlet. After that I went to, uh, for what was in Texas.

OK, and and what was funny was for for the, uh, primary, uh, headquarter training.

OK, is the, uh, a study, uh, 23 the S twenty three chopper, a chopper small. And that's like the that's like the bubble canopy.

Right. Similar to that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Very old one.

And then.

So how long did you spend in America training to fly.

Uh from uh from the uh first training, uh uh advanced training on the SS twenty three to that. Then uh after I finished it I went to Alabama to get the training on the uh I study for the King be the big me.

What was your first impression of the King be what you thought it was, because 833 is a small, tiny one.

And, uh, when I finished the, uh, training on the today for, uh, the I was trying to, uh, get to get the training on the highway at that time.

They already the, uh, at the school and they only have the, uh, a model. It's a small one.

The model. Huey Yeah. What did you like, what did you like better, the Huey or the King give me today?

They may have about at that time maybe, uh, one thousand fifty hundred horsepower. OK, but he weighed more and more have all the nine hundred horsepower.

But there he Hughie's a lot smaller than the king. Yes, it is smaller. And, uh, but did you feel like you had more power in the king bee. No.

No, because it's too easy. Too easy to forget what. That one because of the uh.

It's thirty four. I got roll about five hours. How many hours. One hundred hours, wow, total and, uh, but on the highway, I only get the nine point ninety nine dollars, OK?

And then the pilot, the captain pilot who checked them checked me. They said, OK, you can stay home. You don't need to fight anymore. You stay home till he can have more time to 10 other people got other people didn't learn as quickly as he did.

Got it. So I was off for one week and they were out.

So then so is that is that what you got trained and you completed all that training and then it was going back to Vietnam?

Yes. In, uh, 64 across or around as well said.

So in sixty four Americans there, but not super heavy. Engaged in combat operations yet. Not yet. What was it like when you got back? Were you were you starting to anticipate where was it start to seem like there was going to be a broader war being fought there?

Don't forget, in June of nineteen sixty four, Roger Dolin earned the first Medal of Honor at a Green Beret camp. So of where there were major battles at the camps at that level. And so and of course, the king bees even then were supporting somebody, Achint. So that was the beginning of that war at a serious level. And yes, the we didn't get the American troops involved. I drank Valley, but they began to build up and the Marines came into Danang.

So he was all part of that. What year did the Marines come into Danang? Sixty four, I think, for a people. People.

Yeah, because it's always I drank in sixty five. That sort of in my mind marks the beginning of like heavy American combat operations. Yes. As the formal battle between American First Cab and the VA.

So but yeah, definitely prior to that it was advisors in there working by, with and through the locals. Right. And yeah.

So you are seeing all that happen. You're seeing that start to unfold.

Uh, were you at what point did you start flying the King Bees in support of Special Operations?

Uh, when I first came back from, uh, um, the US training, I, uh, I was assigned to the 217 Squadron and, uh, the two so that this was the first station at, uh, Saigon.

And in 60 later, sixty five was, uh, moved to, uh, control in the South and uh, in uh, February nineteen sixty six, I, uh, I was assigned to the Anteaters group. Mm hmm. It is the room to combine, uh, fixed wing and helicopter with the, uh, Mason and uh, later on the helicopter to, uh, become a to nineteen.

But, uh, the group of the eighty, the helicopter group in eighty to uh special group only for helicopter. Mm. Yeah. But when we become became the two nineteen we had twenty four of them.

Did you know what you were getting into. Yeah. With those like and of course he's very modest. The first two years basically from, from uh but he went to that first to 217. The commander of that unit didn't like North Vietnamese so he was only a co-pilot but he fly co-pilot get very bored. He wants more action. So he finally gets the request and he goes and gets the action.

So once you once you started doing that, what was what was that like? What was it what was it like to start going out on those operations where there was all this incredible intensity on the ground?

Uh. I think he's more excited than in a normal squadron. Yeah, I'd say it's probably more exciting than a normal squadron. What was it what was the what was the operational pace like?

How often were you getting called to fly? What would happen? Would you be on standby waiting to go extract people? Would you sit and plan with the guys from SOGGE? So you all were working together. How did all that how did all that work?

Everything worked out like that because you had a rotation like one week they would be on assignment, one week they'd be training, another week they'd be getting ready. And then in one week or so, they'd be on the side. They could be up a few by then. They go down to wherever the most bending on the weather, what missions were up.

So we would sogge ground guys go and, you know, would you sit down and say, OK, here's what we're going to insert here today. Would you be up order?

And they would be in for the briefing prior to lunch before we do the operation that we had, the briefing, what we're going to do to do and we are going to work.

But since I was a little familiar with the whole border from the homework assigned down to Bracho by me to the whole board around the idea, the what you've been through, I'm so familiar that I hear well, I don't need to bring that up.

You were that familiar with it? Yeah. And here's another king during those briefings, when there is a one zero, the king bees, as we went further into the war there, briefing with say we found twenty three.

Mike, Mike here. Thirty seven. Mike, Mike. Anti-aircraft weaponry in those targets. So they would tell the covey and with their expertise would be another bonus that we had in terms of our briefing.

We're not the fly and that's one of the briefing parts.

I was like, we hear what the mission was, get that from us three. But we always hear from them then the covey after that.

Oh, yeah.

So you'd be flying basically some kind of combat mission every day or two days, three days at the most or something in one day for three mission.

Its mission, uh, less about less than two hours.

Yeah, yeah, see, that's what's cool about being a pilot, right? Two hours, you know, two hours of your dog. If you live, they come home. You have to come home. You're doing all right. You're back eating good chow and drinking a cold beer. Indeed.

So. So how long did it take before you finally ended up getting shot down?

Well, they said, like, when did I know you ended up getting shot down?

How long were you flying for before you got shot down?

For the first time over four years. Plus, I see. Oh, it's the first time, some time in 67 or 66. I don't remember because I was at that plant haplotypes and I count four times. Yeah.

And, uh, I don't even I don't even remember which they were that I said the last time I lost my hand.

I remember that. Yeah. The first time you got shot. You don't really remember what happened the first time you got shot.

Oh, uh, the first time I was shot down was in, uh, south of the Marble Mountain. Mm hmm. And in the morning, the we supposed to, uh, take the, um, uh, the the platoon to make the, uh, security line south of the mountain and Marble Mountain right.

Where ever before was. So this is a country mission and they're picking up a battalion to put it on the south side of Marble Mountain because ever before was on the north side and they were having some issues. They put the battalion out there for security purposes to working along with the Marines at that point.

And so seven o'clock in the morning, South Vietnam get shot down. Yeah, yeah.

It's, uh, I don't know, at six o'clock. And, uh, it's just the, uh, my job, the, uh, the two and uh, when the second, uh, came to the land and, uh, he said that he, uh, kept that he got that, uh, Ralphy and I told him, remember which way. Uh, and, uh, I come back to, uh, my mountain, pick up more people and then land again.

And I see which, uh, which direction is that. He said two o'clock and I take up and have to go to work opposite.

Uh, and I said and I saw a line of the people was, uh, moving with the body of a woman and a kid and uh, with the two Baskette that they carry.

Yes. Yeah.

And I told her the, uh, all people, civilian people don't know the ship.

And as long as I finish it, I had a long fire from that from that laugh a moment that people are those people and, uh, the engine just quit.

And I make I make it to, uh, I don't need a rice paddy.

And the, uh, the third chopper that came down to, uh, pick me up and bring me, uh, to the morning and at nine o'clock as well, were again to take the chopper back.

And we we took that chopper by the, um, mechanic. They couldn't find any around.

So they kept asking me, tell, uh, tell them, tell tell them what happened, what really happened. If, uh, we couldn't find any, um, route, then, uh, it must be the technical problem.

And I said, yes, I did. Yeah.

I heard today the area did fire.

And, uh, later in the afternoon, one of the, uh, mechanics ship he was, he opened the front door for the of the, uh, of the engine.

Mm hmm. And he looked around and suddenly he he saw the, uh, the the, uh, they lit the cap of the, uh, my needle lowered a hole in the wall.

So that was it.

And, uh, he was wondering why there is a hole in it.

Why did the, uh, the people that didn't change it. So he called it the mechanic and opened it. Oh my my my wallet was in there and there was a tie that. Well, yeah.

So you would go back out and you went back out and recovered. That aircraft, yeah, would you tie straps onto it and bring it back, or how would you do it? I, I, I go out and we do so seldom how to to to break the down aircraft.

Would you bring it back with another helicopter? Yeah. Just try it on and bring it back and then start working on it. Uh, did you feel jinxed going back in that aircraft again.

Like or did you feel lucky you already got shot down.

You know, when I, when I, uh, I played on, uh, in the rice paddy. Yeah. I, um, I jumped out of the, uh, chopper.

Edna grabbed the damn turkey, the old one at the wheel well to machine gun. And I put it bring a little carry the uh I'm about and uh my uh my my Coleby.

He rode along with me when I had amateurishly I look back and I saw the, uh, the, um the water on the rice paddy was fairly deadly because in the airport from the day they were sweating from the villages.

Oh yeah. Still. And I ran to the bottom of the rice paddy and put a gun with a machine gun and loaded and I shot it.

I thought it did at least shoot one one two hours at a time.

Yeah, that's all it was. All 30 caliber were not the most reliable after after the first thirty years of combat.

Yes, I know. There's another another story where you got shot down again after.

And the day before, King B had been shot down and then you went into what happened on that operation, uh, in that, uh, operation day, the day by day, the day before we went out and to, uh, resupply and bring the wound from the, uh, on the team and, uh, I land and pick up some early supplies. Um, but the second one that shot down by the RPG and, uh, it was about 5:00 PM and, uh, when you saw it and, uh, I came back to, uh, Dactyl and, uh, no, we we'd like to me at that time.

Yeah. To keep me on the previous day and I decided not to.

How did you feel about going on an operation when there was two can be shot down the day before and now you have to go back in there. What did that feel like?

Oh, I think we need to bring the, uh, order, my friend, right? Mm hmm. Yeah. And, uh, when I land to, uh, on, uh, at, um, uh, Ducktail, uh, the, uh, the radio man from the camp, he went away. He said the order from Saigon not to land in the morning and, uh, he lowered his head.

But last decision is yours.

And I say, oh, I'm glad you're here again.

And I said, be and to get in shape.

And, uh, my, uh, number three number four can be, uh, I will go in again and uh, when people about. Oh yeah. And uh, um, I, I thought that that's, uh, followed me.

And uh, when you were about five kilometers from the algae, then you people just skip out.

Betty and I will go down by myself and, uh, I wait until seven o'clock, seven p.m. it's dark.

And uh, uh, I say let's go and I turn my lady, the light, even even the, uh, the, uh, that's more light.

You turn them off, turn them all very, very, very, very. I hate to have to see and because anyway, uh, for, for a long time I, I can listen to the engine and I know how much data it was looking and how much uh how many r.p.m. it is ready.

And, and uh when you were about five kilometers from the outset, I turn out the light and uh tell other people to I'll wait for me and I asked Jacobi, do you see me? And he said, yes. Yeah. So I get up and down and go down without and uh to the top of the tree recovered.

And, uh, I see him again, really still, uh, see me. I said yes, OK.

I mean, and you got to say I left Liberia and I get ahead and make a 360 with a ninety ninety, uh, not got my 360 degree to, uh, to land on the outside.

So so the they were walking you in and telling cups of coffee. Would you like me guiding you out. Yeah.

At night at Treetop in the jungle. And there's mountains here. Yeah. It's not like we're flying to Cambodia where it's flat.

He's flying over the hills to just and this is part of one another day with a king bee.

Well at night with the lights out and he got everybody up and uh the next day I came in again and at uh, 10 a.m. and when I was taking off and I held a brush and the, uh, the chopper started to pick up.

Was it the engine was that they brought up the rear of the engine or what blew up the engine? Yeah, they only fire it was it was a hit by the RPG. OK, you got the phone? Yeah, I make it the right. I did is I make the right move to keep the, uh, jumper cool. We'll stick to the side of the hill. And still, unless we load the, uh, left side out too, so we can hold onto the side of the hill and let them out.

And I say, did the co-pilot when I came out, I hit my go by.

He goes on my left high and run.

So let's make sure I get this. You're you're the aircraft gets hit with an RPG. Yeah. The engine dies. The engine came off.

The engine came off. Yeah, it blew off the engine. OK, and so that's why the chopper noise. So now the chopper goes nose up. Yeah. You're going to crash land and you have to do it on a hillside. Yeah. And so you had to kind of maneuver the helicopter double angle.

Yeah.

So it was before it rolled out of the hill and then so you land it basically you are able to crash landed and then you look at your co-pilot and say right.

And ran uphill, OK, you designed it.

And so then you joined the soccer team on the ground. Yes. Uh huh. Did you charity the and thirty again for now. At that time we have had sixty.

Yeah. OK, so you have you got the sixty off of it. Yeah. Uh the only one.

But uh so then what happened when you joined up with the soccer team is our team today. Uh oh. The 16 and 18.

Well all the uh the dish and uh, I grab one of them now. At first I yeah.

I got one of them tried to shoot at a while obviously, but, uh, they, it didn't work because they shot, but then uh uh they ran out of bullets.

Yeah.

Uh, I think the uh too dry.

Oh the gun was too dry. Yeah. I couldn't shoot any more.

OK, so now you're in a perimeter I guess. Yeah. With your team. With the team. They're wounded. Yeah. And this is a boon to people who have picked. What was this. I'm not sure. Salah Qanta this is before my time even like sixty seven.

I think so. Uh so I went around and uh and not uh am seventy nine again.

Mm hmm. And grenade launchers like Abdulghani and so I just walk you shoot me down. I'll be nice to you.

I should, I should, I have to like a little uh until the day.

And uh I said I was shooting from 50 meters away from us to two hundred meters away from us.

How long were you guys on the ground for before you got extracted? Uh, and, uh, when I, uh, I, uh, after I shot the already grenade, I called Eddie Govey and he said, Are you still alive?

Yeah, I actually got out and I found my, uh, rescue file.

It wasn't he really was on this guy and he saw me. He said that he saw the, uh, the frame that I know frame go and hit my chopper at my boat in the front. No explode. And he thought that I was not dead, but where he was. And he said, oh, you're still alive.

Yeah, but don't go up. We have to move back. Yeah. So you hear if that had been a Huey, they're dead. Everybody's dead, but that's a king B. Yeah, the you know, the RPG hit the engine and blew it out, which is a nine cylinder World War two is from the B seventeen but blew it out of the aircraft and he's still there. We'll talk about it. Walk away from. Yeah. And crash land that thing like on top it on a sideways.

On a hill. Yeah.

So, so was the the the other aircraft.

The other can be then land and pick you guys up quickly. Are you out there for a while.

No.

We have to um uh we have to run away from the elizee with the, with the team from 10 a.m. to four p.m. before I was pick up.

So much for the two hour mission. Six out. You're getting shot up by the NBA the whole time? Yeah, many times, and he's learning how to shoot down.

Seventy nine in between the F-16, the F-16, whatever else he has on the job training in Laos.

So then you come back from that mission and then take a shower, get ready and go brief another mission.

That's what you guys did know after the mission that I was down, I went back to the running back to ducktail. And at the time I did my command in my squad. The men and the whole staff of the squadron came down to that door to see what happened.

And I couldn't believe you're still alive.

And yeah. And, uh, when I, uh, first I live in see facility that my face will go, man, I say that my face I need to have one week to, uh. I'm the father of a vacation to relax. They give it to you. Yeah. He said, okay.

So all you had to do is take a RPG hit, have your engine blown out, crash land and do a six hour gunfight with the VA to get a week's vacation.

I don't know. That seems like a rough tour.

Uh, but the, uh, the previous day, one of the Jabu also got hit by the RPG and, uh, the co-pilot got killed and, uh, the pilot and the and the mechanic and they go shoot a bird. But, uh, I hope. Mhm. Yeah.

And the, uh, before the um the next day before I left the was I went back to the uh the last day of the chopper that went down.

Uh yeah. Well the previous day. And try to look at something it can remain of the co-pilot of the previous day. But I couldn't find any the whole thing with the wide eyes because the aircraft was the aluminum arrow.

So it just burned is.

That wasn't your last time getting shot down? No, no.

What about your tail rotor, tail rotor getting shot off, your tail rotor, little cable?

Um, it was in the house and I was taking it off.

And suddenly I feel somebody hit the Mahdi the on my my my foot and my feet. And I asked my question, what's happening with the tail rotor and the hitchhiker? And he got in the table and said that the cable over the controlled cable or the cable to the shot have shot up.

And so because when I feel the heat of the day, somebody I said something hit the pedal I did when I was tequila is established to to.

Right. Because we we don't have the tail to move to the left and reduce the power.

And I accept I accept to be shut out of the bag without a doubt, rather than ending.

So I keep taking it to 60 or not and 560 knots a little bit sideways and they come lousteau and I cut my uh my my, my. They are letting me go ahead and enforce and they are the stimulus and uh, because I have to make a trust and I went along to traffic and land, make a landing and the tail will touchdown. I told my go by, put up the pilot and he got out of the pile and did the job, which sounds so slowly said now that you guys that Rodney that would need a break.

I headed back to do, uh, to to stop it. But it would be for the fighters that I told of the, uh, my crew. You tell the team nine a.m. in the job.

But the other team, when I slow down the chopper and tell them to jump out of the nine men team and tell them, do not do that out, not to remain, if we give me we might make a crash and advise the, uh, chopper to try and stop.

When I look down, I that no, no doubt about it.

Do still didn't. And any of the nine members of the team get wounded.

One guy was wounded and now nobody's wounded. But yet they shot the rotor, the, the cable to the rotor.

Yeah, that's crazy. And the aircraft between the weight and the way he adjusted the cycling stick. Yeah. He flew back sideways and decrease the speed.

It's like I never heard that story. This is another one of those oh my God.

Stories just another day flying king because we kept an eye on, you know, why we say never one pilot where I tell you one thing, even at that time we have to get you.

Yes. To go by ourselves, then we can make a lot of it. Is that right?

Yeah, because we you know, today, when you go after the operation, the fueling and the thinking of the enemy, what they are thinking, we can guess. But the American you guess what they are doing, what they are going to do.

So you're saying that the American, the Americans, we would do random things, but the enemy, you kind of knew what they were going to do. They found patterns.

We can guess most of them. Wow. The Americans just go out and what local have where they to press it, try to suppress it, but for us, we can guess where they are going to put a gun or a lot of windowpane, because sometimes we, uh, one time I was shot, I was taking off from the outside and the, um, I heard the heavy, heavy growl finally come up on the right side. And I look back and I saw the Adva sitting behind the 50 caliber and shooting at me, less than one hundred.

Yeah. And, uh, so I dive down to the Baboo Tunnel and make this exact right.

But the I and I escaped but the second came back, I mean they made it so it can give me uh I got shut down, shut down and got high.

Wow. Is too close. Less than that. Yeah.

OK, another one. Not till was. Tell me about was you got something hit. You got hit by something. It almost knocked you out of your seat. Yes. And there was like a two inch hole in the back of the king bee. What was that.

We couldn't find out. I couldn't find that idea around. And I don't know what kind of, uh, what kind of, uh, debris with that. But, uh, at the time, I was taking off from the outside in and out, and suddenly this like somebody hit me with a hammer in the back and it hit me. So I, I, I, it was my left hand left. Need to hold these collective and give right and is my left hand to check my back as I see it all.

He's still right and I still get no blood.

Milbrett And when they got home the uh I checked the rules well and I saw the of the makeup. I see the makeup. I see the hole bigger than this one. Mm. Yeah. What did you guys.

Was there any armor at all on the king be. No, no, no. Just aluminum. Aluminum can't stop anything.

No I said Oh yeah. One that is the one uh I'm afraid underneath the engine.

Underneath the armor plate. Oh the book's out maybe eighteen inches or eighteen inches wide. We wrap up on the sides underneath the engine.

That's about the only armor I'm aware of. Yeah. Yeah.

Would you where you where did you wear a flak vest or anything. No. No, no point.

No they're really cool. King be like like just a flight suit.

Overalls have, there can be signals on them and they have their holster on their hip like a cowboy and they're really good looking uniforms.

I like the black was best.

And how many operations do you think you flew. Miscalculates, I got 4000 hours and minus 1000 hours of liars in or out of other things.

And so 3000, 3000, 3000 eevi to two hours for mission.

So fifteen hundred or so missions you give or take, give, take 100.

And these are all saag missions. Yeah.

How often how often would you have any contact on the ground when you went in and.

Usually they. When I came in to the team and I saw something, what is this like one time when I went to the alley and I saw the tearful line on the Audi and it was getting off and come back, I come back and they can I wasn't happy with it.

I saw it and I didn't I didn't make it right away.

But most of the time when we got shot, when we take off from the outside, when the team was headed for extraction, for the extraction.

Yeah. So most of the time you could get in well you would just pull the team out almost immediately if you guys took. Right.

Yeah, we were compromised and we just try to get it back, go out if we could. What percentage do you think you guys were compromise on the insert? Probably a lot more than we realized. Mm hmm. Could they have Elzy watchers and they would like to get us on the ground first, particularly by the end of sixty eight, because they had the saw Hunter killer teams that were out there and their main mission was to find us. Yeah, I would think they would want to wait till you inserted the you insert let the helicopters and roll you up.

There you go. So the insert usually a good work good. Would go well on less there days like we had that time in November when we get shot out of the primary secondary and the author and the Kambiz would go in Bing Bing Bing, go have lunch, they would refuel, have a little lunch because another target go back and do it again.

And often they would come back with bullet holes. Could we. Lily got shot out. They if there's enemy activity here we wouldn't go, you know, you're compromising. Try to get on the ground and get going with the mission. And we had several days like that back to back to back.

And the he's got beat up, but fortunately, nerves got shot down and the Sikorsky is just a beat. That's just a that's just a horse of an aircraft.

Yeah, I had one door, but it had the windows. So whenever we're attracted to first man in the shop, we go to the left window. You mean the port side port? That's what I meant. How we get the port confused with starboard. I start drinking port and that would be aggressive.

Passenger Rezvan right there. And the left side. Yes. Is the bulkhead secure? A bulkhead is secure. There you go. You're all babies.

And though and then right here we can interject. Um, sometimes they would be in the air and there would be an emergency call for any helicopter, which he did in August of nineteen sixty nine. I forget what you were on, but this is that mission was Scarface and Scarface was making a gun run and they were working in conjunction with the the 101st Airborne on our air mobile units. And there was like a river stream and they were making a gun run.

So the 101st had gone down with the Cobra. They had Cobras in Scarface, came in with a regular gunship, got hit. As it went down, it flipped over to the door. The crew members came out. It crashed upside down. They put out an emergency call on. Was there any response to the call? The gunships went down and they made a gun run on each side of the down, upside down Scarface.

He followed right in and he picked up the two to the crew members he picked up.

Who is either no, I did pick up this spot.

Them you spotted them first because I, uh, I if I follow the stream to see what I if that'd be a people and I spotted devastating on the big problem like this table and I call them let them know and I get so they come down to pick them up and I keep right down the stream to look at the people that I couldn't find any more.

I come back, I get back to the, uh, the, the down Healy It's upside down and I couldn't see and see inside the cabin or cockpit.

So I use my right wheel to turn it back. Hmm.

Flipped over the Huey well under enemy fire.

And, uh, I checked inside the don't nobody in there. So I told him I couldn't find any more.

Didn't you have your crew chief hang out the door? Yeah. And then he was able to say that he saw people in the pilot and the co-pilot because this date is two. Those are two.

Only two. Face Marines, aviators that are still listed as MIA. I think it was the pilot and the crew chief because the co-pilot got out and they were able to rescue those two and and the bubble of the front of the uys where he put his, you know, the strut, put the wheel in and lifted up the helicopter.

His crew chief goes and hangs out all while under enemy fire. So in August 2000, Scarface honored on at a banquet in San Diego to thank him for the heroic mission. And they helped get your award for a mission to correct that part of that. Not yet. Not yet. But that was one mission where he was just flying and they had to call for help. He responded to help Scarface because Scarface and 101st that protected King boys all the time.

And you got shot up on that until it wasn't like we're just another day in the park. He's helping the Marines try to find those aviators. And I'm not sure how many hits he got, but just the fact that go down the stream, put the strut underneath the front nose, had been knocked out and lifted up to give them a status report from just another day with the King. These amazing.

Yeah. That, you know, the reputation you guys had must have been just I mean, that opening that I read from this, like, yes, it's just epic, you know, to hear the the the relief from Watkins. Here's who it is like, OK, now we got a chance.

Yeah. And that was always our golden our golden moment. We are on the ground.

You're in a firefight and they say the king bees are coming. It's like, thank God for the king bees on that mission.

When you decide, hey, you know what, I'm not going to bring a co-pilot. I'm not going to bring a crew chief. I'm just going to bring me and the gunner. That's it. That seems like that seems like a kind of crazy decision to make.

No, because we we I know that the situation was too bad that we have to go out as fast as we can so we can bring them home as fast as you can.

Meaning it would have taken time to round up the the co-pilot.

Now, if one time when he was they were put immortal in in the Knechtel. And I saw I saw the the, uh, the smoke came up on me again on the other side of the hill.

And I saw I, I rented my job and climb up and I get up and when I said you go by it was late at night, it's gone.

So you didn't care if you had a co-pilot or no idea what. It's just like that mission later in the book with a chapter twenty when they had the night bright light. Yeah. Where the hatchet force had been in, they had severe casualties. They had all been exfiltrate it out. The last helicopter went in was again a U-turn, went in on strings to pick up the team leader from the Hatch Force. The sergeant stayed back and a couple of indigenous troops and the chopper got shot down, crashed.

And then that night they asked to go in. And this is October sixty nine. And then Black went in and on, took them out again with no crew. They took them out at night, found the Elzy and thought they thought they're going to repel him. But somehow he's able to find an area big enough to get the kingpin went down, lampblack got in, picked up the kid, picked up the team member had a broken back and the other survivors.

And then he came back again at night, picked up the team. I think this time did pull him out and strings and then they pulled him out.

Was there anyone else that that could fly at night?

Like you could hear some of them? Was it your eyesight? Was it just the amount of hours that you had in the helicopter?

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

You know, at that time, the thing be they really have the AC, the see model that we be out. We have the ADF, VHF and FM. Mm. But the Demara we got from the Marine have detected UHF. We had uh but uh since the uh Titan and the VHF, we don't use it often. We almost. And it's too heavy and it was used on the table and they did the heavy table heavy.

So I remove all of that extra radios out.

Yeah, we don't we only need the USAF and that's all.

And this leads me to a quick sidebar. Almaty's is you or not. But we had in 68 the king bees had the Marines wanted to raise the king bees to food by.

So they had the race, a race race. They had their own force. Oh, no, no. This is just going from Danang from the air base. And it can't be will race. You talk about king bees versus what? Versus the Marine Corps, age 34 is they still have some sturdy force. Oh, so it's just it's king bee versus king bee. Yeah, but Cambie versus Marine Corps got it with all the radios. So the Marines had to go around Hai Van Pass and go over the South China Sea King bees fly up and over hoping they get the flu by when 100 dollars of that was near enough.

But that was one of our favorite king bee stories.

The Frenchman always told that one man. And then who's your maintenance crews? I was it was it Vietnamese?

Yes, airforce. They were they are in a village, Air Force. And, uh, later on, we had the, uh. I see what what I said before, get out. Oh, I told the U.S., the American company. Oh, American company.

Yeah, they they are the main job is to to replace the part. I said, I suppose to, uh, change the tail, the tail rotor.

They bring the whole, the whole set and put it on the television set. But I don't trust that. You know why.

Because at one time after the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, tail rotor and, uh, up, I checked everything I had to the chopper it up the engine and jobless. It started jumping up and down, up and down. And I see the spirit of the, uh, needle and get off the engine. And the job was like this.

And if the know come up and I go down, check, check, check and check the tail. Oh my God.

Where's all the other three remain? It's supposed to help the flight, but it only had one was not there until it was achmea here.

That could ruin your day. Yeah.

We had in Vietnam for the SEALs in Vietnam, they had a similar relationship that the SA guys had with the Kambiz, with the with the sea wharfs, and they had to kind of improvise, improvise and their maintenance. They were very proud of and and very proud of their maintenance crews because their maintenance crews would keep those aircraft running and they would do whatever they had to do and rob, cheat and steal to work around here.

That's right. That's right. And they were already, you know, using birds that had I forget, they scrounged up the aircraft themselves from somewhere. They kind of left over aircraft. And and so that it wasn't just the the pilots and the gunners. And then on top of that, these incredibly hardworking sailors in the Navy that were making those birds able to fly on a moment's notice. But it's just it's a very similar relationship for the same guys and the king bee pilots as it is for the SEALs and the Seawolf guys.

So there of legend. Absolutely. Yeah. Outstanding. Yeah. And and just the it's a similar, you know, the attitude. You know what you said earlier on earlier when I asked you, you know what what do you thinking about when you need to go back into a spot where two king bees have already shot down or been shot down? And your response was, I want to get my friends out. That's it. That's that's that's the esprit de corps that is just unmatched, you know, and having that relationship with and just that that warrior brotherhood is there is a very human side.

Like there's a few times that we get pulled out. Right. At last night, we got to be passing. Hey, come on, I'll buy you a drink. And the captain Tim, say I'm going home to my family or captain to long. No, thank you, but I'm going to go home. I feel I'll be back tomorrow. You buy me drinks tomorrow. They come back and they had time go in the club to have a drink before we go on the next mission.

That's just amazing. So you had this whole.

Yeah, that's crazy dichotomy there with their to fly home to her family. She's and they always came for us. They never you know, we never had them say no for us, any of our teams.

Yeah, no, that's that's definitely something to think about because Americans, we are always fighting in someone else's country. Right. We don't go home when we go on deployment. That's it. No, there's no family.

Were you married during this time or were you did you have kids during this time? Did you have your your brother?

Yeah, I, uh, I married in nineteen sixty nine and uh I don't remember if I was uh shut down before or after. Hmm. I don't remember.

I said I said the last time and you must remember, you know, going on a mission, getting your aircraft shot up and then going home to your wife and saying hi honey, I'm home.

Yeah. Yeah.

Every time I uh. Yeah, I wish I had, uh.

But I think most of the time they'd miss me. Yeah.

One time I flew back from, uh, the quality and the, uh.

The weather was really bad, and we all know about three feet along the hillside and suddenly this, somebody fired a long line of I got it right at my my ear.

And I, I looked like a little uphill and I saw a lot of NBA, you know, in the Civil War.

Yeah. The front lines, the seat, the second line, the the and the lines, the stands just like that. And they were on the hill and they're shooting at me.

Well and uh and I, uh, I told my coach it should shoot back.

And I saw the, uh, tracers that they had no doubt decapitated the whole day in front of the front line of them. I don't know if he did. He did any of them or not. But because I was the last one in the flight at that time. And so I just keep trying to make the policy and wait.

You can see I Eickhout, I found forty nine holes.

He's flying from Kazan where we had F will be three. He would pick up teams, launch four targets from Kazan. And of course when you flew in a case on where this is during the offensive. So, you know, that was so he flies from that hot zone flying to Quong Tree, which is quote, a secure base. And in route there's three lines of Velva just practicing target hit them. Forty nine times.

Yeah. Forty nine rounds. What happened the last time you got shot down?

The last the last time I shot that was in Budapest. Yeah. Not of uh but between and uh I insulted the team and came by and they came back.

I just like when you are uh when you are in service for a long time, in combat for a long time, you have some feeling. I would say the sixth. Yeah. And I feel something wrong on the ground.

Yeah. Down in the jungle. So I am uh fifteen hundred feet. I would allow you to take it, uh, at about 500 feet. They have to shoot at me.

And this is this when you're trying to extract them or is this during the insert drop help is coming back from an OK, so after you drop them off you're halfway home.

Yeah. And you decide you're going to go look on the ground. Yeah. And you start to gut instinct. Yeah.

And I, uh, I got mad and I said, I bet this x y and I skip your line of eye and uh, I don't matter. I said that this is my land and I take care of y you got your dad to shoot at me.

So I come back and sued and I got hit again and the chopper got fire the round hit the fuel tank and then the fuel ignites and the fire comes from the fuel tank into the cabin. He's a 500 feet trying to keep the aircraft stable to land while on fire. And I was on top of the frame, the flames coming from the game up from the cabin to the cockpit, and I really if I a right.

All right, all right. All the way around there in the body, it would be OK.

But I don't want it to be a cop, so I could probably get the wood up.

So. So your plane's on. So your your helicopter's on fire. On fire. You could cry. You could land right away.

You don't want to get caught now because that's going to be a horror.

And I tried to get me to a boot up and the frame to keep her and keep burning. And one time it was so hot that I left out of the control the criteria. And I love it. I keep my my hand and my my chest when I saw the when I left the cyclist, then the choppers start to dive down and I saw the roof coming up and I said, I just see it in my head. It is on, it's over.

But when it come close to the treetop, the, uh, the instinct of survival pushed me to grab the cyclist, the pulling back and the chopper was diving down. And suddenly when I pulled exactly so, so hard and it came up, I thought that the main road that would come off, but he needed and I thought I saw it and I leveret and that's how the shop is diving again. So it is like it like a scene like in the sky.

And finally I make a landing and, uh, in the open area.

So the the in the handles were so hot that you couldn't hold on to him. No, but then at the last minute, the survival instinct, you knew what you had to do in order to get some kind of a landing. So you just grabbed those.

And, uh, when I saw the, uh, Elzy, I was flying eighty eighty nautical mile and it was nineteen nautical miles and I moved decidedly to the right and pushed the right peyro all the way down.

And so the uh the chopper at a 90 Nergal by like a 360 degree so quickly that I thought the Kennedy detail boom came off that and they started to sell it out.

And when I touched down very smooth and but they still Statler's are still running though. It hit the tree and on the wheel came off pretty big. Uh, the blade came off. And when he stopped, I, um, I grabbed the seatbelt lock and I pulled it. But instead I put my finger open and forthwith and I use my left hand on my left elbow to hit the buckle. And that is the lock. And I grabbed the handle of the window because when I ran and they had the window ready to move out and close it.

So I grabbed the handle of the window, put it back. But it happened like the other seat belt. I grab it, but the finger opened but couldn't hold onto the handle.

The skin was burning. So I used my, uh, my shoulder to hit the window and broke the window out. I somehow when I saw from the door the honor, the, uh, material which came while I was burned out except the zipper. And the liberal is still burning the way I roll down the grass, wet grass and to, uh, put it off. And after it was off, I couldn't stand up.

And I microchip read by and grab me up and bring me a ride me to the rescue chopper, the number three, no tweeting me.

So then you get on the number three can be they get you out of there and you obviously go straight to the hospital.

They and they brought me back to, uh, the immediate area of the VA hospital. It was the military hospital in Saigon. And I stayed there for it until 11 a.m. the next morning.

They spotted, uh, one thing, one pilot that can be pilot on a freeway with, uh, with the American enterprise abruptly to, uh, Terfry Hospital.

And that's where I stayed for eight months. Mm hmm.

And what was that process like those next eight months?

Oh, the amputate my hand and make a skin graft on my leg because of my life when I was in the hospital. And they, uh, the they did after Dr. Smith, he amputated my hand. I, uh, I asked him, how about my leg? He said that he didn't know until after the, uh, after the operation.

Did they amputate both your hands at the same time?

Yes. And then what was the what was the plan from there? What happened after that?

After that I go back and forth to operate for eight months now. The treatment went about four or five months.

But after that, I will make the follow up to the would put it before the end of that to try to check it. And after that, after after the treatment, they sent me back to the hospital.

And at some point, I know you had a brother that was a eighty one pilot, right? He's a one pilot. And what happened with him?

He was on the nine to five mission and he was missing. All right.

We know in ninety five minutes we're across the fence also, right?

No, no, he he was missing about 30 kilometers north of a tiny town in northern.

And then what was it like when the when the war started to kind of wind down for, you know, America leaving and the communists are going to take over? What was that what was that like for you?

Um, at the end of, uh, of April, April ninety five, yeah, one would think the pilot came to check to see me and he was with my COFI.

This is in April of nineteen ninety five and thirty five. Nineteen seventy five. OK, yeah. Got it.

And uh uh he asked me uh what we are going to do and I said I really don't know what to do now is everything Masab. Did you I mean, obviously, did you feel like the when the communists took over, that you were just doomed because clearly you were a veteran that had fought for South Vietnam? It seems like you would you must have felt like you would be doomed if they completed the takeover of Vietnam.

I don't know. The thing is that we we were desperate because we lost the war.

And, uh. On the. I see 30 April 30, 1975, I was born one just the. I still remember the day she changed it and when I heard the it was up now.

So you were on an American ship. I don't know which is the challenger, the sea challenger. And when I heard the announcement, I was horrendous. I mean, oh, my, uh, my tears just came out and I want to come over to the war. But when I look back and I see my two kids and they stop me, they stop me from Jambiya. So then what happened, I mean, now you've got your two kids, you're you're in Vietnam, the South has surrendered.

What what what happened then?

I really go back to, uh, go back home and then wait. What happened? And. In, uh, Surabaya in July six seventy five, I was in, uh, they could be in the relocation camp.

In reeducation camp. Yeah. What was that experience like? Just.

They just talk about propaganda and propaganda, that's all.

And the thing is, they're the people who they want to do want us to go to class every day and we have to go to class every day.

But the guy who tell us what to do to.

Is the level of knowledge that this will likely be able to pass through the rectory, so you're being re educated by a third grade?

Yeah, right. And the kid and all of them talking the same way. It's like the machine.

It's just indoctrination. Yeah, not a nation. Yeah. How long and how long were you at the reeducation camp before I was there.

Um, uh, zeolite from June to August. And then how did you get out of the reeducation care.

Well, one time I was going out with my, uh, the other prisoner to clean up the, uh, the camp and I was pulling a barbed wire with them.

And, uh, one of the, uh, one of the guys, the RV, told me that, uh, you keep looking and we have the inspection team up on site to come to me. And, uh, when I saw that, I heard that I don't want I don't I don't remember them fully. I didn't politti my anymore. I just go along with my file and whatnot.

But the guy on one of the I in the inspection team, he came by my side and uh asked my name and my military ID and uh, after that he said, okay, it was working with Japan and he left, he kept walking away and uh, about 50 meters away, he pulled out the, uh, notebook and start writing something.

I don't know. Mm hmm. But one week later, the test would be from the lungs out to swim out.

And I had to swim with them. I stayed for another week. And one day they called it the the announced on the, uh, on the radio that, uh, you'll be able to help and then below will be prepared to be, uh, you have the opportunity to pick your people back up.

So that was it then. You got out of the camp. Yeah. Uh huh.

And so now it's still 1975. Nineteen seventy five.

And then what happens and what do you start doing it and then we leave that to leave it. Right. That is absolutely twenty five you know. Yeah. Well uh after the when they get to go over to the south it is a little miserable.

You know the people who uh everything it is them food stamp, everything stamp and uh one maybe each of them.

These people are like and by Libby and Gram, I mean 100 grams of meat a month maybe sometimes they don't.

But he said meat.

But in fact that they even can give you either hide or the fat or anything.

And I still remember one time when the one one of the guys who work at the desk, he wrote, he he he rides a bicycle around the the street near my my house, near my house. I say that the face go, people look to my face and my my, my, my said he was that 75, 76. He was nine at seven or eight and he just had to do that so we could buy the first one. But if he can make it anywhere he reached daddy celebrate price.

There will be rotten fish, only rotten fish. Yeah.

So you lived in that regime for how many years, how many years did you have to live with like this?

Uh. Seventy five to eight a.m. exactly, it would be like 84, 84, and you and you tried to escape a few times.

Yeah, I did. The first time I tried to escape with my son and we got up.

How was your first escape attempt? What did you do?

Um, uh, I asked my neighbor. He she, uh, she has some, uh, some information from other people. And so we every time we had to pay them and, uh, the first time we got caught and, uh, at Dungannon, we saw myself out of control and, uh, we were in prison.

So they put you and your son in prison. Yeah. You know, the, uh, the prison in Namkung is, uh, year.

There's a case maybe it would have guessed at about one point five the size of this room.

They made it from the, uh, so maybe 20 feet by 20 feet or something and not even not even that.

And, uh, you know, the, uh, the the three that in the swamp you swab a little bit in the soil. Yeah. They got it. And they make like it. They just like it gets just a cage is a cage and uh they over the top with no way.

How are you planning to escape. What was the plan. Where are you going to go by boat. We're going to walk.

The only thing we can go by boat. By boat. Yeah. For course, like a lot of canals, water, much water. Yeah, very few roads.

And, uh, how long were you in this cage for with your son? Uh, maybe a couple months.

And they test a little time for us to um to lie. Um, such and such was that.

Yeah. And uh, you know, the case, you know in um Namkung.

That there were a lot of mosquito, not mosquito, and every day we have the one, you know, the type to be in bed death.

Yeah, the motto by this week and every day, only one one bottle of water for one day for every four months.

You're like this in a cage with barbed wire on top. And, uh.

Mosquito at about 5:00, 5:00 p.m., we have to sit in there with the mosquito net, if not just here, it is a swarm of mosquitoes.

It's like to be and have a couple months where they will move to.

Some will move to what was it, another prison, another prison?

How long were you in total prison for and why did they eventually let you out or how did you get out eventually?

Well, my my family and the article, the people who organized the escape, they get in touch with the local. And every time they want my cell and my son, we already we have to pay about six or seven, six or seven hours.

I will go six or seven ounces of gold. No, no, no. No doubt. Oh, I see.

Uh, what do you see a point seven hours ago, Carter, where would you find gold like gold at the time I was I got that in downtown.

The police. You just let me put a hand in my pocket and found a ring, a gold mine, and this is a ticket and put in his pocket. Had to buy a would see that he take it out and put it in his pocket.

That's when you got caught. The second time, though, it's worse that oh, the first time you lost your gold ring, you lost your pack of smokes. Yeah. And then you tried to escape a couple more times. Yeah.

Another two times. But after the first time I saw that my uh my son is getting better. I don't want him to uh to be I dope to be called to service by with the NBA. So I let him go by himself.

So your son escaped by himself. Did he make it. Yeah, he made it in uh eighty seven.

I mean he at that time it was sixteen, sixteen, seventeen.

So you were facing either you get either your son escape's or your son is going to have to actually serve in the NBA who you had fought against for however long. Six years. Right.

And she's after my son, uh, escaped and I brought my, uh, my daughter to ask about another two time. I got Carter.

Oh, my. Uh, and was a punishment as severe the second two times, uh, the, uh, second time it was okay. But we after we we can get out of a couple of months up till we pay about what you take away then have go.

Where do you find gold. Oh luckily that my my my uh my sister who passed away to uh the earlier this year, he sent the money to help my, uh, my mom. Where was your sister. My sister in France. So she was in France. Yeah. So she was able to somehow send money to your mom though.

She didn't send money. She can medisave medicine and a it I. Okay. Got it. So you were at the time and it has no made no mention it now and during that time too your father was killed. Right. My father will die in 62, 63, 62, 64.

Sorry. Yeah. And I where I started the force the day you joined the Air Force went right away.

My father passed away that day.

Mm. So how did you finally how did you finally get out of Vietnam and get to America.

Oh I see. Uh in eighty eight then I heard that the age old problem. I am not here, I have not qualified for that program usually. H o h. Oh yeah. Humanitarian organization departure. Yeah. And uh it's helping the people who was in uh service. Ah. Who was in prison in the communist prison one in three years can come there prior to coming here. And uh how did you not qualify for that.

Because of the total time I, I spent. Prison is only two and half year now.

So you need to spend some more time in prison. Can you imagine that after all? Service. Good Lord. And, uh, so I thought that maybe I will that I might be, uh, leaving Vietnam for ever. So I prepare for my whatever I plan to. What I'm going to do, too late, but, uh, at that time, the, uh, uh, South Vietnamese, uh, Air Force associated with the, uh, the, uh, tourism musyoka, he was the, uh, Air Force retired colonel.

So this is an American Air Force, retired Colonel Masuka, my shoulder. And he was working with the San Jose. He South Vietnamese Air Force Association. Yeah.

And, uh, he the, uh, South Vietnamese Air Force Association asked me to help me. I seem to help me. And, uh, he went to Vietnam and saw me and I, uh, he asked me to bring on Taipei, but I, uh, I brought it to him and I just saw the DFC and he said when he saw the what the DFC, the F.C. Distinguished Flying Cross.

What's up? American Award or the DSC. Got it. Got it. Got out of the flying class guy. Okay. Yeah. Yeah I know. I got I misunderstood. Okay.

So he saw that, he saw that uh but he didn't say anything but later on he said that, he told me that he didn't believe it because uh usually uh DFC supposed we thought would be a word to the American public.

So, uh, after he do all kind of pay on my paper and he said that he will try and represent, but he is not guarantee under present and, uh, he can lie to state and. He called it one of the guy who worked in the archives and I saw our guy and that guy was it was working with him in the military when he was going out it I was a second and let down the second set a little note.

I didn't the colonel, OK, like a tiny colonel, little girl around us.

And they look at they found the DFC and they found Yevsey.

Yeah.

And they found all of the records and the paperwork on that, uh, deputy. Wow. And, uh. They've been added to the National Enquirer, the magazine, the National Enquirer magazine.

Yeah, they they they they found they are the people of our guy that I, uh, I rescued.

OK, and, uh, one pilot came to see me. Yeah. It is a line. And, uh, his, uh, squadron commander is, uh, Morrison.

And they came and they, uh, inquired but they to take that they can do it all here on TV.

Wow. And so then they set up that program to get you back here. So what year did you finally get back here or what did you get to America? Oh, let's say I came here in ninety four. Nineteen ninety four. Yeah, I didn't. Well what family did you leave back in Vietnam.

Uh my mom when I left Vietnam, my mom still that but I, I, uh, I told my nephew, the uh the son of my uh my uh, my missing mom brought it to the Capitol to come over to leave it so I can go. Mm hmm. And I gave me and, uh, I left it on January ten ninety four.

And I raise uh, Trev's here to uh on uh fifteen ninety four. And then what happened. Did you have any family here. Did you know anybody.

Well at first I live in the same house with the uh the chief of the uh the South would be the airforce associated with OK. Yeah.

I lived for six months after that I moved out and then did you get a job.

What did you do. Not yet.

At the time. My, uh, my, my, my son and my brother and my son and my daughter work to support me. OK, yeah.

And, uh, when you made it out, so you had your son, your daughter with you when you made it out. My my, uh, my son came here. Oh, that's right. So he was already here. That's right. But when I came here in ninety four my daughter came with me.

Got it. Yeah. So your so your son and your daughter were here or your son was already here. Your daughter came with you and now they're working and starting to figure out life in America. How big of a shock was that to you?

Uh, at that time I was I was little just stay home and do nothing and waiting for the, uh oh. What is going to happen?

Because at that time, the, uh, the they were trying to get the she didn't care for me so I can get it out so they can give me here. And it's a lot of petition that had a good reason why they had the petition, which you said it is. Yeah, right. Uh and uh in sixty six. Yeah.

I got to see this year, 1996, you got your citizenship here in America and then you went to the Santa Clara Fire Department.

Yeah. I love that. I know. I, uh, after that I uh I go to school for the, um accounting class. Mm hmm. And after one year I got a uh is up in, uh, send it right off the fire department for almost three years.

And then they ran out of, uh, budget and, uh, I was up and, uh, unemployed for six months and get another job in the IRS.

Oh, you work for the IRS? Yeah. OK, well, I suppose we'll have to figure that out. Yeah, he's one of them. He goes from a good guy, a hero to the IRS. And how long were you at the IRS for?

Uh, from, uh, 2000 to 2013, 13 years. And that was it. After that you retired. Yeah. And what are you doing now? Sleep and watch TV.

No more prairie fire emergencies. But at first I was it was really boring.

I tried to look for the part time job, but I couldn't.

The Friday parties. So then you just had to do just pure retirement now and look for a part time job, there wasn't anything.

I don't care what a low level with anything is, just maybe if I level out six hours a day, you're ready to work?

Yeah, I'm ready to work.

Sick of watching TV.

And you're up in this area here in the San Jose area. Yes. Yesterday I came here, OK, because we might be able to find a job for you. Somebody's probably looking for someone.

Yeah, but the work on a yeah. Yeah. Up till that I miss anything.

I mean. Well let me rephrase that. I know we missed. I know there's all kinds of stories. Is there anything else that you want to bring up? No, I think those are the major stories, just the documented ones indeed, because that's one thing. I mean when you talk when we talk, when we broke down year three thousand combat flight hours, I mean, we could probably you could talk for, you know, three thousand hours explaining what happened on all those missions.

So, I mean, just unbelievable that you were able to get through all that crazy.

Automatable, my friend. He, uh, he told me that I they couldn't believe that I still alive until today.

For sure. For sure. For sure.

So. But anything else, though? No, I we've covered the major points there and, uh, you know, just like that one time with the Marines need help. Here he comes. He just went there under fire. And so many times as king bees got shot up, I mean, 40, 50 rounds, the holes have just amazing stories.

And the men were just so many of our guys are alive today thanks to the king bee pilots, period, and, of course, the other aviators. But in our case, we had that direct relationship with them. There are primary assets they put us in. They always can to pull us out. The pat walkers, Walkerston, you led off with just a classic moment, just captured the essence of that underground intense firefight. And here comes the king bee.

Not only did he come, he settles into a bomb craters.

He can get on the helicopter and go home on. Anything else you want to add?

Uh, I said, yes, that's it. Well, I'll tell you what, it's just been an honor to talk to you. And thank you so much for coming on. And more important, thank you for your service and your sacrifice. It's it's we will won't forget it. And you took so many risks. You took so many risks and you paid such a price in order to save your comrades and your and your brothers in arms and to be there for the for the guys on the ground.

And we appreciate that. And we appreciate the fact that you stood the line to defend freedom in the world. So thank you.

And during a secret war, the king bees were another secret that nobody knew about. And so I thank you for doing this to get the story about our heroic on and the other king bee pilots, unfortunately, many of whom we've lost. And we buried the captain too long, two months ago, three months ago. And our secret war had its secrets. And one of the gems, one of the great assets, working bees, and we salute you every day and the brothers in arms.

So thank you for doing that, Jocke. It's an honor we appreciate. Thank you.

Thank you.

And with that tilt and on have left the building and once again, we are left with an example of what human beings can do, what human beings can face, what human beings can overcome.

Pretty amazing, yes, sir. Pretty humbling. Yeah, yeah. Feel like we can do more? Yeah, I mean, that's pretty much the general kind of overall consensus is I feel like we can do more. You feel like we need to do more. Like I need to do more. Anyways, I want to, like, bring you over. Yeah.

Like group me and you and my whole process of trying to do more because I think sometimes I think you feel like maybe you're good with what you're doing sir.

Oh yeah.

I don't know, maybe, maybe not but yes I think so.

So you know, he mentioned and we all know that he lost both his hands and then later on during the fire department. So well, he was an accountant at the fire department. But yes, he's a fire department with no hands. Yeah. And by the way, I mean, this is he lost his hands, both hands. And I asked him about it. He's like, oh, yeah.

Well, then I went to he was no like there was no hesitation in carrying on with what he was going to do. He's just going to whatever I guess he's going to get hooks and he's going to carry on. That's what he's doing.

And then at the end, which kind of gives you an insight to like how he's thinking, where he's like, yeah, I'm like retired and I kind of just, you know, made a joke. Like, I just sleep and watch TV and he's like, man, I'm kind of looking for a part time job. I got to go do some stuff.

And you know what I was thinking about? If somebody told you a story where they said, listen, here's what's going on.

I was in a helicopter, I was flying the helicopter and that the controls of the helicopter were burning and they were on fire, but and I couldn't hold on to him. So I just let him go. And then right as we're about to crash, I just grabbed on to him and I steered the plane or steered the aircraft, the helicopter. And I got it to land and we lived. But those those controls were so hot, it was crazy.

OK, so if you heard that, you would think one level of the word hot. Right. And there's no way that the level of hot that could be explained to you is so hot that you lose both of your hands from voluntarily grabbing the controls like that does. And then as you're trying to get your seatbelt off, your hands are just ripping apart. Falling apart.

Yeah. So, yeah. And that opening that opening that I read from on the ground with the book on the Ground by drone strike. Meyer, it's just it's crazy to think, you know, your oh guess what, there's going to be too dangerous.

So I'm not going to take a co-pilot or a crew chief also going to ring as a door gunner and me. That's it. Yeah, that's what we're doing. That's that's another level. Yeah. By the way, you're sitting on a base, like, warm or whatever.

I don't know. Cool.

Maybe you're an AC, you just had a piece of chicken or something like life is pretty good. Right.

And not to mention these guys in Vietnam, they're they're like, I have to go home at night, like to say, hey, oh, cool, I'm going to go home now. Yeah.

Because I think when I was on deployment, I just put all that family stuff out of my brain. Yeah. I wasn't thinking about my wife kids. Yeah.

I was in just the deployment mode. I think it would be really hard to go. Oh, deployment mode. Well, singing ballet recital with the child.

The daughter. Yeah. You know, they say, hey, don't bring your work home or what. You know, what's that thing. Yeah. That's not the level. Right. There's another level check.

So yes we can do more so. Yeah. All right. Well keep yourself. Keep us.

We're keeping ourselves in the game. We're all getting older, we're not getting younger. Put it that way, maybe some of us are getting older. OK, so you're going back in time.

When you edit video, there's this thing you can do that freezes the frame. Right. So that's kind of what you do. You feel that you're doing freeze the frame. Yeah.

OK, cool. Well, when you're working out any way you need supplementation, that's undeniable. I guess you could deny it if you wanted to. Nonetheless, supplement to be a mistake.

I think you'd be a mistake. Yes, sir. So anyway, supplements called Jakov. So these supplements include but not limited to joint warfare, free joints, supercool oil for your joints, general health.

Some omega 3s in there, these are important. What I'm saying is also discipline, discipline, go three versions, not three version of the discipline powder.

You drink powder every day in the morning.

Kind of, yes. Matter of fact, yes. So I was thinking about this. So in the morning, I drink coffee. I'm a I'm a coffee drinker. I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. I don't drink coffee every single morning. But that's like as far as morning routines go. Coffee is not part of your routine.

No, definitely not part of my routine. But is the discipline because you get a workout, right. So you take the discipline every morning before the workout? No, I take it before I work. Work. Oh yeah. After the workout. Yeah. When I wake up in the morning I don't drink or anything. I just drink water, water and go, yeah, it's a good one.

All right. Interesting.

That isn't true. I just know I'm going to what I'm going to the Jets on the way there.

I'm drinking discipline for groups. All the three games actually sometimes actually for year but nonetheless.

And then. Yeah. So there is part a virgin also capsule version. Cool. That's when you're on the go and then the energy drink healthy energy drink version.

See this is a good one.

So in as far as energy drinks go, like we say, you can have an energy drink, but if you even same energy drink kind of brings along the stigma of the energy. Definitely discipline, go energy drink. RTD does not have that stigma because it is factually healthy truth.

It's true. You know, sometimes you look at me. You want me to give you back up on your statement? No. And I just got that look when you made a complete thought. Right. Nothing else for me to add.

Yes or no. Good for you. A lot of times I look at you because, like, sometimes you'll have this look like, oh, let me like you remember something.

Yeah. Like you want to, you know, and I just want to give you that opportunity. Oh, thank you.

Thank you. I always have a nice thank you for the opportunity.

Just saying sometimes, sometimes you say some good stuff anyway. Also smoke. These are in the form of protein protein from the dessert.

Six and one half dozen. The other is there. Either way we do know this, we're getting something that's tasty and good for us, good for us. And so you could essentially just say it's good. It's good because that covers all bases. Yeah. Good for you. Good tasting.

It depends on what kind of good, because there's a lot of kinds of good and for good of various things.

You've been doing a lot for a lot of lawyer activity with me lately about. Well, it depends on what you mean by. Yeah, because I've been noticing.

Yeah, because you can't just blanket statement a lot of stuff like, OK, so my daughter asked me, what's your favorite color. So I'm like, all right, well it kind of depends like let's say black was my favorite color, but same time like I don't necessarily want everything to be black.

Some things I want to be red. Like I don't want to eat a black strawberry, I'll tell you that.

OK, you see what I'm saying, though?

A lot of these questions, like I said, you're doing a lot of a lot of these questions demand a favorite color camo.

Next question.

Well, you'd want to eat camel orange, tell you that if there is such a thing, if you get an orange that was camo and we just called it a camo instead of an orange.

Right. Well, I just think of like, what if my wife's face was camo?

Then again, I wouldn't be too bad either. All right. Well, whatever. All right. Cool. Simplified. My answer is, how about that? Cool anyway is.

Bye, everybody. All the world, all these things. JoCo Fuel available in various locations including or Dumain.

Yes. Vitamin Shop. Absolutely.

And as far as discipline go energy drink cans. Walwa. Yes. Available straight up.

And by the way, also on Amazon.

Yes, sir.

Also speaking of origin or domain dot com, you can get there, you can get wiwa Florida right now, the whole East Coast January there. I said it, it's looking like January for the whole East Coast, thanks to the Floridians and the Florida troopers out there getting after it, clearing shelves, moving us in the right direction that we can hope for a January. For Loadout, Walwa, the people from Pennsylvania are fired up. Have you noticed that on social media, people from Pennsylvania, people from Jersey, people from Virginia, like we need it up here in this Walwa?

Yes. Yeah, I did see it. Justyna probe in there for sure. Yes. Good. OK, back to orgasming dotcom American made stuff including Ghys scratchcards, jeans, American Denim and boots.

Yeah. And you might think to yourself, oh, oh. American made jeans. Right. OK, I know what that's going to be. That's going to be a three hundred and fifty dollar pair of jeans. That's what you, you might be thinking that potentially you're thinking wrong. Actually you're thinking wrong. Get yourself a couple of pair origin jeans and listen.

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But as we grow, as we scale, we will be able to get the price down even more. But join the join the club of supporting America.

It's true.

Also, boots, like I said, also the store called JoCo Store. And speaking of clubs, we have another club. It's not really a club.

Yeah, the club. I mean, really, in a way, it's a subscription based T-shirt scenario. I like that way better than club club. I think love is something that you do unless you're in a motorcycle gang club. Yeah, that's one that's like one club also.

It depends. Oh well that's just sort of a cool name. Right.

But it depends on what you mean by club.

Are you being alone because you're over your you know. You see what I'm saying anyway. Yes. Club subscription based t shirt situation, which you are wearing one today.

Is this the initial launch mode for one of the other ones?

I must say that one's dope. Yeah. And you know, I don't throw that those around very often in a while.

Yeah, but yes. Yes, sir.

I delayers and yeah. You know, these t shirt ideas, you know, they come, they go some stick, some don't stick. But this is like an opportunity for all of us to sort of, you know, capitalize on some of the cool t shirt ideas that just fly it from time to time.

Yeah. And and just let the ideas come and go. The shirts will come and go. Yeah. One shot to get one of these shirts and they're gone anyway.

A store. I'm not sure you can jump on that if you want.

Also an outcome you can get the discipline equals freedom. Good. All these, all this stuff.

Shirts, hats, hoodies, you know, some cool stuff on there. So yeah. If you want something, get something that makes sense to me.

You can subscribe to this podcast too. If you haven't done that, wherever you subscribe to podcast, it's got some other podcast, JoCo Unraveling with Darrell Cooper, which used to be called The Thread.

Now it's called JoCo Unravelling, also grounded podcast, also Warrior Kid podcast. We also have a YouTube channel where Echo gets to manifest his little video fantasy. I kiss you. You will always say that name and good. But when you think about it, YouTube channel, you're talking about enhanced video videos that we at some point started calling enhanced.

OK, maybe I made that up.

But either way, there are not that many of them. They're all just like the video version of this podcast and some excerpts of this podcast. So technically, the YouTube channel is more you than anything. So, no, I'm just saying you put it on me a lot. So I'm just saying it's kind of both of us.

I don't know. It's sort of the outlet for your stuff, though. Kind of, yeah. I guess that's kind of true. I don't see your stuff being out. You haven't read any books yet. That's true. You don't you do have a podcast. I guess you have this podcast technically.

Yeah, I guess. No, that's true because yes. If I want to express myself in any capacity to come creatively. Yeah. Where is it going to land. It's going to you like me.

I'm over writing songs. I'm over playing guitar art.

I'm painting, I'm drawing, I'm writing books. I'm just all but video. That's your realm. Yeah. You do that. Yeah. You make a video or two every once in a while which is good. Which is who I do it all.

You check. All right. Nonetheless, yes. OK, so I understand now I understand what you're saying and you're correct and I am corrected and I understand that fully and accept that also psychological warfare. It's an album, you know, you talking about you make music sometimes.

You just making albums. Yeah. There you go. So this is one of them anyway. There's not a music one though.

This is JoCo helping you with each track, identify and help you overcome any weakness that might that you might encounter.

So that one is one of those things that's helpful, but it's 100 percent effective.

Also, we have a visual form of that flip side, Kamus Dotcom, Dakota Meyer making all kinds of cool stuff to hang on your wall, got a bunch of books, the books today I read from On the ground.

We also have Across the Fence Chronicles all those three by John Stryker, Meyer Tilt and also Whiskey Tango Foxtrot by Lynne Black. These are some of the SOGGE books that are just awesome about Face by Colonel David Hackworth. I wrote the foreword to that. It's available now. Leadership Strategy and Tactics Field Manual. The code, the evaluation, the protocols. Discipline equals Freedom Field Manual, where the Warrior Code for Freedom Field Manual is out right now. You can better order that ASAP if you want it for Christmas.

Mike and the Dragon, actually, anything you want for Christmas, order it right now. Right now. That's my that's my encouragement to you, because otherwise it's not going to be there by Christmas. You've got all these everyone's ordering everything and delivery people and delivery planes and delivery trucks are short.

They're going to run out. So your package is going to be sitting in a warehouse somewhere and your kid's going to be crying. And why are they crying? Three reasons. Number one, they don't have your your kid. Number two, they don't have your your kid, because if they did, they wouldn't be crying about it. Yeah, it's true. They would they would put their emotions in check.

So you might want to check that out. And also, extreme ownership and the dichotomy of leadership in front is my leadership consultancy. You go to Echelon front dotcom if you want help with your leadership. If online where we are training leadership online all the time, go to Yev online dot com. If you want to ask me a question or you want to figure out some leadership problem that you have come and ask us, master. Twenty twenty. I'll let you know about the dates for muster.

Twenty twenty one. That's where we're heading. If overwatch. If you need people inside your organization that understand the principles we talk about here, go to ETF overwatched dot com. We will supply you with military personnel who are ready for their civilian job to go out and lead.

And if you want to help service members, active duty and retired families, gold star families, if you want to help out in a bunch of different ways and check out Mark Lee's mom.

Her name is Mama Lee. She's got a charity organization. And if you want to donate or do you want to get involved, go to America's Mighty Warriors dot org.

And listen, if you seek personal internal agony, it's what you want, what you want is to cause pain to yourself. And we can deliver.

You can get more of my lackluster applications.

If you need more of I think this one's good, if you need more of EKOS inexplicable explanations like semi explicable number that you can find us on the website, Twitter, Instagram, which just so everyone knows what I'm talking about and I say Instagram, I know you only refer to as the Grim and on Facebook that goes out adequate. Charles, I imagine. And most important, John Strecker. Maya is on Instagram at Jay Streicher Maya.

And thanks once again to Captain On for taking the time to share his experiences with us and more importantly, for risking his life over and over and over again for his brothers on the ground and for freedom.

And thanks to every one of you out there in every branch service, Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard and to all of our allies that have stood by us on the battlefield to protect the sacred ideal of freedom. Thank you. And thanks to those of you in uniform on the home front, police and law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, Border Patrol, Secret Service and all the first responders. Thank you for keeping us safe here at home and everyone else out there.

Think of Captagon, think of taking care of others, think of recognizing the risk of his mission. Going into an area where they had already lost helicopters and deciding. At the moment of truth, that he would just go with one other man so as to save as many lives as possible, a decision which for him was perfectly logical and as he said, no big deal.

When the call came, he went. And we all should do the same. Go. And until next time, the Ziko JoCo out.