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That is such a key to success, because no career is linear and I have so many stories to prove that even though I was with one firm for thirty three years, but it's not linear. It's not perfect. And the big lesson is no one is thinking about your career as much as you are. Back in the land of douche bag, Gary, I want to talk about where food has gone, what it has become and how this conversation started was because Sarah, who works with me, she also has never seen like a table sized Caesar.


She thinks a Caesar is like what you get at like the Olive Garden or Applebee's like this, like creamy white dressing. And I was talking about how back in my day when they had covered wagons, the Caesar was like a special food. It wasn't something that they had at every restaurant. It was table side. It came in a wooden bowl and they were like mush anchovies in the side with Dijon mustard, Worcestershire lemon, parmesan, garlic, salt, pepper, olive oil and like an amazing croutons.


And it just came all zesty and more clear and coated versus that like creamy garbage. You get in like a packet at Wendy's. So I love Wendy's.


I'd like to get a spokesperson deal from them. So sorry, Wendy's. I don't know if you sell Caesar dressing. So sorry for fucking pissing you off. But anyway, I digress as usual. So we started talking about food in the iteration and how now like the Caesar is such a big deal. And then that brought me to realize that the kale Caesar, the kale Caesar was like Madonna in its day and kale itself was like Madonna. And I always say, I want to meet Cale's publicist because also back in my day, kale was like this green, curly garbage that came next to like a sweaty, hot orange next to your eggs at Denny's, like just some piece of like some cousin of fucking old school curly parsley.


Kale wasn't like a rock star with a starring role. Kale wasn't something that like people massaged in kitchens in Provence to bring out a salad that was tender leafy greens to the taste. And kale didn't come in. All iterations didn't come in like baby kale and wild kale and and like kale chips and shredded kale and, you know, braised kale, sauteed kale. Kale was not what it is. So that that brought me to think about Cale's friends and other people that like other celebrity vegetables, that came up because when I was growing up.


There was no Rogala, no the Caesar salad, we had iceberg like a wedge or just like that house garden salad with red wine vinegar, like it was like shredded carrots on that iceberg, chopped up garbage. And it was like a red wine vinegar. And there is something good about it. It came in that little thin would bowl also. But then mesclun was the fucking biggest deal ever. Mesclun came out, balsamic vinaigrette came out together. They came out as like a couple and it was like Marilyn Monroe and Joe DiMaggio.


So everybody was doing that. I was never ultimately a big fan because that mesclun bag that then came in bags got soggy super fast. So I was not a big fan. And even Romayne on its own wasn't a big deal when we were growing up. Like Romaine later came in its own, probably around the same time as as mesclun. Later Mesclun agent brought in baby spinach. When I was growing up, we had spinach bags of unwieldy spinach.


You could wash it. It would be Sandy. You would. You would. You would. You would satay it. You would seem a bit like spinach didn't have little lovely, delightful little leaves that you could make in your own little salad. It didn't have baby spinach, didn't even have maxey spinach. You just had spinach and now it's baby kale, whatever. So that was spinach. And then arugula came in and they call it Rockit in London.


That was the first time I had it was in London because I think it was there before, which is weird because London used to not even have vegetables. But anyway, a rogallo became a really fucking big deal in the cold salad category, in the hot Sydes category. It always used to be broccoli and sauteed spinach and asparagus. Then in the modern day, in my day, broccoli, Rob was a big fucking coming up star and broccoli. Rob still is.


You know, it's a success story, but it's not what it used to be. So then I don't know. Was five years ago, somebody in a boardroom threw kale up in the fucking at the ceiling and just said, let's try to make kale popular. Some some genius. The Kale Society and kale came in with a fucking vengeance, OK? Kale came in, was shredded kale chips, kale, Caesar massaged kale, sauteed kale, braised kale, kale, everything.


Kale was even in burgers. Kale was like chopped up with a paired with its other friend, butternut squash and some wild rice. And then they sort of fucking throw cranberries in warm and almonds into salads. So that was kale then came back in the day. Broccoli Rob was when brown rice became popular. White rice used to be the way you did rice brown rice then became like, it has to be brown rice. It has brown rice. You can't eat white past.


It has to be whole wheat pasta that has to be like not a white white. It can't be a white grain and brown rice now is a fucking loser. Quinoa came in hot. The protein grain quinoa came in was like, move over, kale. We're going to hang out with you. We're going to hang in the same place. We're like Taylor Swift and Gigi Hadid. We're going to hang out together. Kale Quinoa became best friends, major Instagram following huge deal.


And as of more recently, Brussels sprouts, Brussels fucking sprouts. When I was growing up, Brussels sprouts was child abuse, Brussels sprouts and cauliflower, which is another popular one. It was abuse. It was like lima beans, which are waiting to make their debut. But Brussels sprouts now perram with bacon, shred them in a salad, add them with with with blue cheese and pecans and walnuts and like make fry them Asian restaurants, make them fucking so cool.


Brussels sprouts are rock stars. And then my final vegetable that I'd like to talk about, which really has a very confused identity. Cauliflower was literally I mean, raw cauliflower was actually emotional and psychological and physical abuse. When I was growing up, it was cauliflower. It's like if fart was a vegetable, that was, what, cauliflowers? So all of a sudden cauliflower is pureed as mashed potatoes. It is food processed. And now we're pretending that it's rice, it comes in tot's, it comes in in Yoky, it comes in hash browns like they make cauliflower to hash browns and they try to make it into steak.


I've been to a restaurant. They say cauliflower steak, fuck off. OK, it's not even steaks long and distant cousin that lives in another universe like steak and cauliflower. I have nothing in common. If you rub steak all over cauliflower, it's still has nothing to do with steak. It is big piece of grilled cauliflower. It's fucking cauliflower, OK, because you could cut it with a fork and a knife. I could cut dog shit with a fork.


I have to. It's not steak, OK? And cauliflower. Rice is not rice. Zucchini noodles are not is not noodle. It's not pasta. It's long shreds of yellow or green vegetables drowned in sauce that that doesn't even look like pasta taking long wavy ribbon noodles and moshing ricotta cheese in between them does not make that azania so the fucking vegetable crisis is real. OK, that is a relief effort in. And of itself, if lima beans come in next, or succotash or okra or some other bullshit vegetable, that is shit, then you'll know the cow has had its day.


But I literally think every time I talk about these vegetables that their publicists are going to call me and that I'm going to be finished, that my career is over because I fucked with cow and I just don't think you can. Now, I think Karl's got too much power. It's too much. It's like the Kardashians. I can't you can't fuck with it because it's just got an army and it's it's just here to stay.


All right, my guest today is Kathy Engelbert, the commissioner of the WNBA and formerly the first female CEO of Deloitte. Well, she's very interesting. We talk about being a woman in a corporate atmosphere, something many of you would be interested in. We talk about how she made it to the top of her field and why sports are so important to young women and girls. I hope you enjoy this conversation. Hi, Kathy, how are you? I'm doing great, how about yourself?


I'm good. Where are you right now?


I'm in Bradenton, Florida, at IMG Academy in the WNBA, what we call the players of affectionately called the wabble, the WNBA bubble.


Oh, that's so funny. So do you travel an incredible amount before the pandemic?


Yes, incredible. Both in my prior job and with the W, because obviously we have 12 different cities, 12 teams. So yeah. But I guess that's been the only good thing about the pandemic is less, less stressful we all feel.


I know, but do you miss that some people like to travel like it just gives them a structure to program. They leave their house for a minute and like they just get to collect themselves even though they're working there on their own. And how does it affect your family?


I don't miss it at all because I did so much of it at Deloitte. I mean, I was on the road four or five days a week for essentially decades. So we're like really enjoying not having to be on the road and being with my kids. And my daughter just moved back home. She's a one year old college, so. Yeah. So I know I don't miss the travel at all.


Well, at this podcast, just to let you know, is about visionary's game changers, billionaires, people who started from the bottom. Now they're here, people who took circuitous routes to get to where they are, non traditional business, because I'm finding through speaking to these amazing, interesting people that are giving me an hour of their day and they do not have an hour to give. But during that hour, you know, it's all meet and the people listening are getting just different tenets and ways of thinking and ways of that you live and the decisions that you make so they can take it away into their different lives and jobs.


And so do you feel like that's, you know, in the beginning that's just paying your dues, just wherever they need you to go, whatever you need to do that that's paying your dues. And then there's a point where you really just don't have to do that anymore because that's part of paying your dues.


Yeah, I mean, I think it's all about what business and what industry you're in and whether you believe in relationship building face to face, and therefore you got to get on the road or not. And I think it's varied over my career as a client, the the so-called ladder. But as to how much travel I had to do or how I wanted it adjusted because of having two children, there's a lot to unpack even than that. Yeah, exactly.


The whole that's that's a whole topic that will probably end up getting into somehow later. You were the first female CEO at a big four firm. What was it like getting that job? Did you think you weren't going to get it? Did you think a man was going to get it? Were you did you see it? Did you look at the prize and look at the chess chess board and say, I'm going for that job? Like, what did that mean?


Yeah, well, at that time I had been with the firm for twenty seven years, never aspired to be the CEO, never thought I would be a CEO and I don't think I was I think I was a bit of a, you know, underdog call it, because we have an election every four years. And I kind of had just risen into leadership right before that election where I ultimately did get elected. You have to get it's a private partnership, have to get elected by the partners.


And I got a call I'll never forget. I was actually at the Fortune most powerful women's conference in California. And I got a call from someone on our board of directors who said, we want you to interview for the CEO position. And I was like, really? Because I had been kind of a new entrant into the leadership, like the top leadership ranks. And I said two things. I said, well, I don't want to just do it because I'm a female and I don't do I have support?


And second, do I have support more broadly in the firm? Because I had risen up in our in our audit practice, but we had a huge firm audit tax and consulting them and they said, you have support and we want you to do it. So like literally within a month I had to prepare a vision and I have to prepare a whole platform that I would then present to the partners ultimately if I got nominated to be elected. And but no, I see it coming.


Did I ever aspire to it? No. I always say I aspire to lead to a CEO, but it worked out. And I was I was really proud to take on that role at a time where the culture change was needed and providing a role model for not just women, but men and women to aspire to something higher.


What did you mean by didn't want the job? Because I was a woman. I didn't want to interview for it. If they just wanted to say, oh, we interviewed a woman. Right. So you were thinking like that? Yeah. There were these other male candidates who were well known in leadership positions much longer than I have been. And I wanted to make sure I was a viable candidate, that that was a real viable candidate. Right.


Yeah, that's interesting.


So you didn't want it to be like they're just checking the box and I wonder how much that's actually happening versus people really feeling that the person is right for the job. And in your case, it obviously sounds like you were right. And the reason I mention all this is because. In my career, I never thought about men and women now. You were you were a seriously, intensely corporate environment for years. So you understand how to play that game, how to be, you know, be corporate, but also you have to be a maverick because you have to navigate the hundreds of thousands of people that you're working around and such a serious, intense, important company.


But I never thought about who's a man, who's a woman I always just acted like. Just be the back, like just go be the best and you end up being better than the men and and the cream rises to the top. And so not until after I was successful. People have tried to sort of create this narrative to me about. You know, being a woman versus being a man, and I had to retroactively think about the fact that I broke into the liquor business in a major way, which is an all boys club marketed to men, you know, sold by men, run by men.


But there are advantages to being a woman.


Well, I take you back to nineteen ninety three when I was about seven years into my career. We had a CEO at the time, male who had two daughters. And not that his daughters were going to work for the firm, but they were graduating from college and he was kind of looking at this data of women who had risen to leadership roles and and pretty pathetic data, I might add, and said, you know, there's something wrong here.


We've got to look at something. So he was kind of well before his time back in ninety three and launched this thing called the Initiative for the Advancement and Retention of Women, because we actually weren't doing that. Advancing it was retaining women when they get to critical junctures in their life cycle of them as our employees, that they were leaving at much higher rates than men were their male counterparts first.


Did you mean like women are having babies or they're getting married and they wanted this powerful job, but then they decided to switch out and get married and do that, you know, traditional life?


Yeah, exactly. And then he wanted the data like, are they leaving for other jobs? Are they leaving to take care of their families? Is it the family thing when you're in your young 30s? Because that's when you start to rise in an organization where we were firm at Deloitte of what we called lifers. So, you know, a rise and then you get into your 30s and there's probably a point. Certainly I did. I actually resigned from the firm when I was pregnant with my first child because I didn't know whether I could do it all and do the role that that I was in at the time, and then quickly realized that with some good mentoring and sponsorship that that wasn't the right move for me at the time.


But so everybody goes through those and they're there. So what was happening with women get to their mid thirties when they would be admitted to the partnership and then rise into the leadership ranks? But that was different at that time, and that's ninety three right now. There's actually no retention gap between men and women at the firm, but back then there was a huge retention gap. So that was kind of and I happened to have transferred from I actually grew up in Philadelphia, Philadelphia office up to our what we called our national office where the CEO resided during that time.


So I went in mid nineteen ninety two. So when it came around in ninety three and the CEO was going to launch this, I got to help think through it. But I think my advantage was timing of being in that office position at the time, being kind of in where leadership was being built. And I was only what they call a manager at the time. I wasn't a partner yet. I came then back out to the New York area, became a partner a few years later.


Well, you know what?


I think I'm a very much I'm a realist. Like we have all these fantasies about how everything should be. But in order to get there, I like to think about the real and the truth. So I have a serious business. I have a many, many hats that I wear. I'm a mom. I'm a single mom. And, you know, when I used to go to a photo shoot, I would bring her with me on my lap.


And, you know, because I'm me and I have people around me and it's nontraditional and I can do that. I can bring my daughter and then, like, you know, ask them to give me food to go so I can rush home to be with her. And I always want to be with her. That's not really totally possible in the corporate world. It's not appropriate to bring your kid to work. And having daycare there is great.


But it's just it's not you know, we're trying to make it that everybody's the same. If we understand the differences between men and women, it's easier to get those things accomplished because women and men are different in many ways, not only biologically. Their science backs up the fact that, you know, women operate from a more emotional space in many in many cases, I mean, men think differently in some cases. And if that's sort of embraced and thought about, then you can approach it.


And now if that's sexist, it may be. But I, I feel that women and men are not exactly the same and the things they experience in their bodies, in the ways they maybe operate in their lives. And so I think that's the thing. It's that granular in between that's good to talk about. So then everything can be equal at work because everybody brings something to the table when women bring just as much, if not more, to the table as men.


But if you put everybody in the same box, seems like everybody's going to be the same way and contribute the same things. That's when I think we get jammed up. And so I think it's more like understanding who people are. I'm able to run a major business and not have a nanny and still be like a very present mother. But I do it in my own way. The way it is traditionally is a man is paying a check, a man is opening a door and a man goes to work and is not as involved as in a kid's life.


And I think that's just shifting culturally everywhere, even with men being with their kids. More divorced men used to be not get fifty fifty in custody. And now it's really unless there's some problem fifty fifty. So I think it's just. For both sexes, I think one of the other things maybe I can add from my experience, so maybe you go back to the formative years and I grew up in a really big family. I was one of eight kids and I had five brothers.


My dad worked three jobs to put all eight of us through college. My mom worked also while raising us at our pediatrician's office. That literally was right next door, which is why she can do both. And she did not go to college, but she's the smartest person I know. And and if you think growing up alongside five brothers, my mom used to say you can do anything the voice can do because you're growing up alongside five of them.


And I actually, I think, had the advantage there because I carried that into my professional life. Like think about the valuable lessons that a big family like collaboration read sibling rivalry and how to get along dynamics or competitiveness with. My sister and I used to hide food in our rooms because if we didn't, our brothers and we also competed for our parents time or even in collusion. I had three older brothers. They always included me as a fourth in all kinds of sports basketball with little soccer, street hockey, although they put me in goal and actually really hurt to play street hockey.


As a young girl, I think I had a huge advantage just from where I started and and my dad working three jobs and seeing that hard work and dedication and and so having two kids trying to balance a big job like that was easy compared to what I saw my parents tried to do with eight kids.


Yeah, you had your own little corporation at your house. You knew about different dynamics and how to navigate and bob and weave. And that is a great point.


So you said that your confidence started in sports. So is it the structure and the discipline? Is it the teamwork? Because now you work in sports, which we're obviously going to get into. But do you suggest all parents have their kids in sports in some way because some kids feel intimidated and if they're not good enough and then they're going to be made fun of, like, how do you advise people about how sports should play in their lives?


Yeah, I think obviously sports have had a major impact on my life. Never thought I'd end up as the commissioner of Major Sports League, but having played three sports in high school to sports in college, I actually came across in addition to basketball, I was a huge beneficiary of Title nine back in the 70s to allow women's sports and women's sports probably to compete. Like when I grew up, there was no girls. Soccer became a little bit after me, but we had some of the other traditional sports like basketball and volleyball, and I actually played tennis in high school also.


And I was like I was a point guard in basketball and a point guard runs the offense but doesn't always get the glory. So kind of playing helped me enormously think through. Like, now that I look back, I got a point guard runs the offense that's essentially a CEO running the company. Now, they do sometimes get the glory or the fall. But but I just think for parents, obviously, sports was enormously helpful to shape my leadership skills, because I think especially at a firm like the little one hundred thousand people, very complex businesses and in different industries, it really helped me have.


And and there's no doubt for and the data is very clear here, young girls who play sports have more confidence and do better in school and ultimately after school. But that doesn't mean everyone has to play sports. Everyone needs to find something they're passionate about, but they think they're good at but have to drive confidence from it. So I think it's just happens to be sports gives you a lot of confidence and it also gives it it gives you a lot of resilience because you lose in sports.


You don't always win and you learn to lose. And, you know, although I know there's this theory now that everyone gets a trophy just for playing, I still think, you know, again, it's all about coaching and and things like that. But yeah. And the teamwork and teaming. And again, I go back to that word collaboration. I mean, the value of teamwork that I got because I was a point guard running the offense was enormously helpful.


And I I'm not sure that I would have been as successful if I didn't have this kind of grounding in sport. But the development of young girls and the advancement of women as leaders society, because when I look at the WNBA players and how diverse they are, diverse women, you know, that's the next generation of leaders right there. There's a first group of women driving confidence leading in their craft. And one of the reasons I took the job as the commissioner of the WNBA was to help see what they would do post their basketball career because they don't play forever.


You know, it's great that there are shows like Shark Tank that I've been on. It's great that everybody wants to be a CEO and be in their garage and be a billionaire at the time of eighteen. But I just think it's important for younger people to explore many different areas because you'll find your way. And I never knew that I'd be doing what I'm doing. But it was only because I was open to so many things and took every interesting opportunity and pieced it together.


I was a nanny for Paris Hilton. Now I had Paris on this podcast. I used to work for Lorne Michaels and just so many other interesting people that have come now around in my life now. So that's why I say, like, you have to keep your eyes open. You have to be on the road and you may hit a roadblock, but you got to just be driving forward and see where the opportunities lie. So that's another thread that you're talking about, something totally different in a completely corporate environment and within your family, which sounded like it was a full scale operation.


But we both have this similarity in that you just decided to use your environment to learn whatever you could in different departments. And I've done the same thing, but in a much more freestyle way. Absolutely.


I think that's a really important way to say it. You have to do what's right for you. But I will stress you need mentors along the way. So quick story about when I was pregnant with my second child in two thousand, the firm approached me and asked me to move to a Midwestern city for a great client at the time and but they didn't know I was pregnant yet. And I'm sitting here saying, well, I live in New Jersey and I kind of have this specialization with life sciences and pharma companies, and it's a great place for that.


And and so they came to me and said, we want you to move until I actually saw the advice of a mentor who said to me, you can actually say no to this big client relocation, but you have to have a yes behind it to. Something else that can solve a problem for this person, because you're just going to you're creating a problem for them because you're saying no. So find something to help them. So I had my eye on another client literally like two miles from my house.


And I could envision juggling two kids with the short running back and forth, feeding the baby. And it was a crying in my industry expertise, which I had built. And when I went to the Sleater and I said, I don't want to do a Midwestern move, but I had an idea of the leader paused and said, Never forget this. We never would have thought of you for that client. And in my mind, I was thinking, that's the only client I'm thinking about for me.


So the lesson here is like I tell this all the time, like no one's thinking about your career as much as you are. And so you have to you have to speak up. You have to raise your hand. And especially when you work with a firm that's so multidimensional, there's so many things you can do or you where you just follow your passion and and you find a freestyle way to to get into business. You have to have such a key to success because no career is linear.


And I have so many stories to prove that I was with one firm for thirty three years. But it's not linear. It's not perfect. And the big lesson is no one's thinking about your career as much as you are not even close.


And you both but you and I are both saying the same thing. My mantra is find. Yes. Like you just figured it out. You just want you figure it out. You came through the back door, you open the window, you just, like, navigated it in your mind. So we're saying the same thing and we could not have more different careers, which is interesting. What do you what do you do? So what percentage business are you and what percentage fun.


And I mean, really fun. Like, do you get a little wild and have too many cocktails and laugh and feel stupid and you know what percentage business and fun of you because you're serious. Serious, broad. Yeah. So I definitely was more fun in my younger life, but I, I am definitely a small moment of recovery person. I actually acronymic smores when I was at Deloitte so and I find time to still play sports, I find time to play golf.


I'm a golfer, tennis and really like Family First. Again, being one of eight kids, we're still all really close. My sister and I are thirteen months apart and she and I talk every day. She's a nurse, by the way. She does the testing in the state of Pennsylvania and she's my hero throughout this whole pandemic. It's a really hard time for everybody, mentally and obviously physically. And so it's just something where it's hard to have a ton of fun right now.


My daughter and I are planning a trip out to California, hopefully, and do some some fun things. But this year I think about twenty twenty and that's how much fun has not been fun and is tipped a lot towards business. But that's what you do in a crisis. And I think the companies and the people and the leaders and the personalities who lead companies through crisis at the time, those decisions you make and the risks you take during a crisis like we've all had this year are going to either serve you really well or if you were paralyzed by fear of taking those risks, it's really going to hurt your business.


When we come out of it is and I'm 90 percent homebody, 10 percent lunatic. I hear what you're saying about life, just sort of family and work and taking it seriously. And it's what you love to do. I also, though, based on what you were just talking about, about the pandemic and businesses being hurt, I think and I don't know if I just think it's small businesses and small entrepreneurs like I speak to those people a lot.


I think there's been it's been the most horrible time with job loss and with obviously death and just uncertainty. But I think in stillness there's not literal meditation, but in stillness there's meditation and time to like to plant seeds and to plot and to figure out how you're going to grow. And some people have chosen to take this time to really not get hysterical and really, you know, do their game plan or for you, it's like, you know, what are the plays for your players?


And I think in the next couple of years, we're going to have an incredible, flourishing, thriving business. So I think it's going to be interesting. Time for rebirth and regrowth in business.


I do, yeah. Now, I agree with that, Bethany. It's a really good point. And a crisis tends to accelerate or deep in issues that existed before the crisis. But it's also a huge opportunity to fix problems. And you can use the you can blame it all on the crisis, but now you get to go fix the blame, something that happened before. So you know, what a perfect example of what we're working really hard on during this crisis, even though we're trying to keep everyone healthy and safe.


No one is. As you think about women's sports, you know, I came into this world just a year ago and didn't know a lot about what was. Going on in women's sports, so busy balancing motherhood and being, you know, being a CEO and having a career, I came in and the first thing I learned was that less than five percent of all media coverage of sports covers women. And then I learned less than one percent of all corporate sponsorship dollars that go to sports, go to women's sports.


So think about that. Like huge hill. We have to climb a mountain, quite frankly. And so as I thought about that, as I came in, number one thing, let me go try to do some small things of symbolic value to build trust with the players. Let's get a collective bargaining agreement done. But let's also, at the same time, work on building relationships and using, quite frankly, some of my relationships from my prior life to get companies to join women's sports, to really put their money where their mouth is around supporting diversity and inclusion.


And we launched something called WNBA change makers coming off the collective bargaining agreement because women's sports is really hard.


It's hard. It's hard to break through. It's hard to move that. I mean, being a numbers person, I said, how big is that denominator? Because if we want to include the one percent or the five percent to 10 percent, how hard will this be?


Well, the denominator is enormous because men's sports is enormous. So but we still really are proud that we've been able to sign our first three WNBA change makers. And but we need more companies to step up and support these these diverse women, these women, all college graduates, really smart, really good at their craft. And and but it's an interesting model in the difference between how men and women are valued. And ESPN doubled the amount of games they covered for the WNBA this year.


And they're a great partner in CBS Sports Network. And CBS are the first ever WNBA game on the CBS network. And I think we have the opportunity in the WNBA because we will be going into our twenty fifth season next year, the only women's professional league to kind of survive and hopefully thrive.


Well, it's incredible where you've come from. It's incredible the mark you've made and you're an incredible role model for your family and your kids. And it sounds like you've only just begun. So just the final thing is, what is your what Montrouge do you live by or do you if you have more than one? I often say I come from a place of yes, just figure it out. Get it done. Yeah.


I mean, business wise, I coined kind of three CS that you have to have courage, curiosity and confidence. You've got to have all three. You know, from a business perspective and personal, it's always family first. I mentioned my sister and thirteen months apart and talking every day. And, you know, it's always family first and that's what keeps me going.


Well, that's amazing. And it sounds like you have the balance down the best you can. And I just wanted to say thank you because I know a woman like you is so incredibly busy. And to take this time to really just reveal the way you think and the way that you feel about business is really valuable to me. But really, mostly other people are just trying to figure out how we've all navigated this. So I could not be more appreciative of your time.


Now, this was fun, Bethany. And what I've learned is life and career aren't linear. It sounds like you have many stories to prove that as well and happy to share anything. So thanks so much.


My take away from that conversation was I'm really enjoying talking to different types of people, you know, to talk to someone who's so intensely corporate and serious and who has broken through the glass ceiling and worked in a very, very intense, male centric corporate big four firm.


Three decades is serious. Like, that's a serious accomplishment to try to break through there with all men around and, you know, thinking, oh, well, she's got a kid or she's going to get married and have a baby.


And, you know, is really interesting. And just just to learn from someone like that, I mean, that's the thing I want you all to to to explore and exercise different parts of what you think business is, because business for her is very different than it is for me. But in many ways, there are so many similarities. We are could not be on more different path, but we have a lot of the same ways of approaching things that it might not be drinking margaritas at every single party or I'm just going to be a little intense and people may be a little intimidated by me despite the fact that I'm a woman, but I'm getting shit done and I'm going for it.


I'm going all the way and this is my path of my journey. And I'm going to figure it out and I'm going to make lefts and rights and talk to people. But I'm going. So she went all the way. I am on my way to going all the way, and I want you to go all the way. So I'm just giving you different different vehicles through which to figure out how to go all the way.


So even if the someone on here that you're not particularly interested in, whoever it is, you're not interested in sports or the UFC or corporate or entertainment or tech listed anyway, because there's going to be there's going to be something here that's going to peak your interest and that applies to you and your life. GSP is hosted and executive produced by me, Bethenny Frankel, Brail Productions and Endeavor Content. Our managing producer is Samantha Allison and our producer is Caroline Hamilton.


Corey Venture is our consulting producer with the ever faithful, Sarah Cattanach as our assistant producer. Our development executive is Nayantara. Roy just B is a production of Endeavor Content and spoke media. This episode was mixed by Sam Bear. And to catch more moments from the show, follow us on Instagram at Just Be with.