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[00:00:07]

November 3rd, Election Day, and as the clock ticks down, the polls start to close.

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Polls close in Georgia, Virginia and most of Florida at 7:00 p.m. at seven 30.

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We get North Carolina and Ohio in the final hours of the presidential election. Joe Biden had made one last visit to Pennsylvania before heading home to Delaware. Meanwhile, Kamala Harris took a last minute tour through Detroit, Michigan, trying to drum up some Election Day energy in the battleground state.

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The polls closed today. So let's make sure everyone we know votes. Let's keep texting. Let's keep calling, folks knocking on the doors of neighbors and your family members.

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After the rally, Kamala and her husband, Doug Imhoff, traveled to Delaware to watch the results with the Bidens. The night did not start off happily for the Biden Harris ticket. First, Trump won Florida decisively, more decisively than had been expected, and then Ohio.

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Yeah, we got a big number here. NBC News is projecting Ohio will go in the Trump column when all the votes are counted.

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Before the election, the polls had the Biden Harris team way ahead. Now they were behind in almost every battleground state, leaving some wondering, would this be 2016 all over again? But inside the campaign, they were calm. They always had three goals. Flip back, Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania. That's it. Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania. For the Biden team, everything else was gravy.

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But look, we feel good about where we are. We really do. I'm here to tell you tonight we believe we're on track to win this election. Election night turned into election week and gradually the tide shifted.

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Here, the people rule power can't be taken or asserted. It flows from the people and it's their will that determines who will be the president of the United States and their will alone.

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And now, after a long night of counting, it's clear that we're winning enough states to reach 270 electoral votes needed to win the presidency.

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Then on Thursday, Pennsylvania tipped blue, then Georgia, a state that hadn't gone blue since the 1992 presidential election, a turning point, then Saturday.

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Kamala Harris took a jog with her husband near Biden campaign headquarters in Wilmington, Delaware, in the middle of her jog. The networks called the election and Comilla made a call of her own.

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We did it. We did it. Joe, you're going to be the next president of the United States.

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A lot of people had worked hard for this result, but perhaps no one more than black women when we have just elected the first black Asian American woman in this country as vice president. So it also matters who's leading this conversation.

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That's Tiffany Cross, author of Say It Louder Black Voters, White Narratives and Saving Our Democracy.

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Then we have to make sure that not only are we censoring the rising majority of this country, the new American electorate will decide races, but also holding this administration accountable because we saw a record number of black voters and the woman who had so many firsts under her belt has won her biggest, first of all, vice president of the United States. But while I may be the first woman in this office, I will not be the last. We get support from at home hair color company, Madison Reed, we're doing a lot at home these days and a lot of it can feel repetitive chores, TV, you name it.

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Woke up feeling like I just might run for president, even from MSNBC in one direction. I'm Joy Reid and this is coming next in line. This is Episode seven, not the last we witnessed history being made with the election of Kamala Harris as vice president of the United States for four years, you marched and organized for equality and justice for our lives and for our planet.

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And then you voted.

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And you delivered a clear message, you chose hope and unity, decency, science and, yes, truth. You chose Joe Biden as the next president of the United States. Come January, the Biden Harris administration will be in the White House, where they'll have to make good on their campaign promises, and we'll soon find out what Vice President Kamala Harris is all about. But already there are a number of questions surrounding Kamala Harris and the role she will play in a Biden administration in an extremely partisan Washington, D.C. Will the administration be successful?

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And how will this administration be held accountable by the black, predominantly women voters who propelled them to office? Joining me today to answer these questions is Pulitzer Prize winner, opinion writer for The Washington Post and an MSNBC contributor, Jonathan Capehart, editor at large at the 19th, and MSNBC contributor Aaron Haynes and Pulitzer Prize and Emmy Award winner, MSNBC correspondent and host of Into America, Trymaine Lee. Thank you guys all for joining me. Thank you. Thanks.

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Thanks for having us.

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So it's great to talk to all of you. And this is a subject that all three of you know so well. So I'm going to start with Jonathan, who I think is the O.G. Comilla, sort of, you know, journalistic whisperer.

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You've interviewed her so many times. Can you talk about, you know, what you think that she brought to this ticket based on all of the things that she's gone through in her life and career?

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Well, I think what Senator Harris, now Vice President elect Harris brought to the ticket was energy, strength, experience, next generation, an emerging American demographics, but even more important, running twice statewide in California to be the attorney general of California and then to run for the U.S. Senate. That was a proving ground. And then you put on top of that the fact that she ran her own presidential campaign and even the SWIP, she took it, Joe Biden at that debate in June.

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I think all gave her the experience that would that were the experience that was necessary to be on the ticket and to run with the eventual nominee, just given the experience that she had. And also, as we've seen on the campaign trail and, you know, we've we've all covered her and have seen her.

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She's just she is just a down home real person. It doesn't always come through on television. It doesn't always come through in those scripted moments where you see it is where it's most most important on the campaign trail. And that's with real people when she's out on the trail talking to voters, and especially when she is face to face with a young person and particularly young children of color or young girls. And just the way her whole everything about her. If you want to understand Kamala Harris, just look at pictures of her with young with young children or watch video of her interacting with them.

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And that will tell you everything you need to know about who she is and why she was such a dynamic presence and a real power on that ticket.

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And, you know, Aaron, you got the first official interview with Kamala Harris as the vice presidential nominee for the 19. So congratulations on that.

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What did she see as her value to the ticket and what were her goals out on the campaign trail?

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Well, you know, her lived experience as a woman of color in this country and somebody who had been a trailblazer, I think really proved to be quite an asset to the ticket with Joe Biden in energizing her, particularly with the vanguard of the Democratic Party. I'm talking, of course, about black women who, you know, told me repeatedly over the course of the 2020 election cycle that they wanted to be valued not just for their output, but for their input.

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They wanted a seat and a voice at the table.

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And a black woman was, you know, in leadership at the highest levels was something that they felt would translate into a return on their investment, that investment being their voting, organizing, donating and volunteer power even in the midst of a pandemic.

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And so, you know, I think that, you know, even as Kamala Harris exited the presidential primary in December before even one ballot was cast, she returned to the Senate and raised awareness as the lone black woman in the Senate around the the inequity and the disparities that the pandemic has laid bare in this country. But, you know, regardless of the shifting criteria in this campaign, whether it was voter enthusiasm, whether it was ability to raise money, whether it was ability to do the job on day one around the dual pandemic's of systemic racism and coronavirus.

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Madam Vice President elect here is a simple. That checked all the boxes consistently, and we will, of course, recall that there were multiple efforts to really pressure the Biden ticket and Joe Biden himself to pick a black woman as his VP. I think a lot of those people were very happy with Kamala Harris, whether it was the Melanie Campbell, that letter with like 100 women. There were black men who wrote letters and of course, The Washington Post letter with video from six very prominent black women in media.

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Tramaine, one of the things that caused African-Americans to really make that pressure campaign. There were two things. I think, you know, there was Kamala Harris herself, Senator Harris, who in that Georgia debate made very clear that black women have sowed seeds into the Democratic Party. They haven't always gotten back. But there was you know, there was also the concern that a lot of people around Joe Biden had that she had taken him on when it came to race in one of those debates, that classic moment when she called him out on race and on segregation.

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What do you think it says about Joe Biden, that he looked past those criticisms of the party and of himself and picked her anyway?

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You know, I think this is really about legacy, right? And hinged to Joe Biden's legacy. Is the 94 crime bill right? I think there's no mistake about that. For those of us old enough to remember our communities, our families ravaged, quite frankly, and destroyed. And so with Joe Biden's legacy, you know, hanging in the balance, I think he is an older man. I think he takes pride in being the VP to the first black president and the opportunity to appoint Kamala Harris to break through that that glass ceiling.

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Right. And have a black woman by his side, not only sending the signal to black folks saying, I am hearing you right, I am listening, I value you. But also he's thinking about his legacy here. Just recently, when Joe Biden talked about Donald Trump's refusal to concede and said, you know, history might not look too kindly on his legacy, they remember this moment. It's not lost on him at all. I think he wants to be seen as someone who can push the ball forward.

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You know, his whole campaign was about restoring the soul of America, the soul of a nation. And James Clyburn called him a good man. Right in South Carolina said, unlike what we're seeing now, he's a good man who understands us. And I think he wants to show that indeed he is a good man. We get support from halal fresh, you can get fresh, pre measured ingredients and mouthwatering seasonal recipes delivered right to your door with Halal Fresh America's number one meal kit, Halal Fresh lets you skip those trips to the grocery store and they make home cooking easy, fun and affordable.

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It was super easy. The instructions were like full proof. Right. And it tasted delicious. I mean, I was so impressed with myself, like I was feeling myself put me on a cooking show because my bibimbap is going to take me straight to the top.

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Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of the cities that she went to down the stretch, you know, after Labor Day when the general election really kicked into high gear, I'm thinking about Philadelphia. I'm thinking about Atlanta. I'm thinking about, you know, South Florida, thinking about Milwaukee, thinking about Detroit.

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You know, she was on the ground meeting with black women and black men and young people in those communities to hear directly from them about what their issues are, particularly in the midst of this pandemic, in the wake of the national reckoning on race about what their governing priorities were.

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And so, you know, for her to show up on the ground, you know, as a black woman to say, you know, that I hear you, that what you're saying is something that that I can relate to, that these these are familiar stories because of my lived experience, I think was very, very powerful and persuasive for for a lot of those voters, particularly folks in communities that had not previously felt, seen and heard by the Democratic Party and maybe even by this campaign prior to her joining the ticket.

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And so I think that she was definitely an asset to the campaign, to the ticket down the stretch. Usually we don't think of vice presidential nominees as, you know, somebody who's like a make or break right leg. Like usually their job is to do no harm.

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But I think I mean, the role of, you know, Joe Biden's vice presidential pick was it was outsized this year, given the Herculean task, not only to, you know, oust Donald Trump, which was the priority of a lot of black voters and Democrats in general this cycle, but also just in terms of what they are coming into, what they will inherit when they take office on January 20th.

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You know, in Tramaine, to that very point, the data shows that black voters really turned out for Joe Biden and really made the difference for him in some key states, including for flipping Georgia for the first time since, you know, more than 20, 30 years to flipping it to be blue. And, of course, also in places like Pennsylvania and places like Wisconsin and Michigan. You said in your podcast that there were communities in Pennsylvania specifically where there was 100 percent turnout.

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And you said it was not just a turnout, it was blood, sweat and tears from the black community. Can you walk us through that a little bit? That's right.

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Oftentimes even disconnected from the party machines. You have people all across this country like our, you know, Latasha Brown and Black Voters Matter and so many other activist organizers whose names we will never know go into places that the machine simply won't go, won't have the wherewithal to go, don't care to go, even take for granted. In some ways, you think about Olympique County and in Pennsylvania, right in these communities outside of Philadelphia, outside of Harrisburg, outside of Pittsburgh, where there are these pockets of black folks who simply have never been courted.

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Right. So we have voters there who have a clear stake in the process, but no one has ever had the wherewithal to go. And so we talked to a woman named Brittany Smalls, who is an organizer for, you know, black voters matter. And she said, you know, we went to these places in the heart of deep red, rural, what they call up south. You get outside of Philly starts look, a real country out there, real concern out there and went to these places.

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And we saw it in Pennsylvania. We saw it in Georgia. And so it's not just out of some loyalty. You know, we're fealty for Joe Biden or the Democratic Party. It's a result of all the work that organizers did on the ground, you know, credible messengers, black folks, black women, black men who went to these communities and did a little bit of of a spiel in terms of political education, but also reminding them it's not even just necessarily about the president.

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It's about what's happening with your sheriff. It's about your day. It's about your state legislators. Right. And and it seems to have worked. But you have to go to the places. You have to shake the hands. And that's something that's been lost in all of this. Even if you're putting money into targeting folks on social media, there are people who don't have access to the Internet to do right, who still have real concerns. There are people who are opening up the fliers and mailers, but they still have real concerns.

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You need to knock on those doors and walk up on those doorsteps. And it seems to have worked.

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And to stay with you for just a minute, you mean what do these voters and what were they telling you on the campaign trail that they want to see different? What do they want to see or what do they think will change having Kamala Harris, you know, there and empower beside Joe Biden?

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Well, one is like a more humane approach. The last four years have been violent in so many ways. Right. We've seen the actual bloodshed, but the violent rhetoric. Right. The abstract violence of the dissolving of protections and regulations and just this carefree racism, the emboldening. Of racism, so we'll return to something a little more humane, and so in some ways, this is more about American politics than it does about Kamala Harris. But to have her, there would be about covid-19, one in 1000 black folks dying from this disease.

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And the numbers are still rising right now to have a black woman in position of power to push the ball forward and to address these communities as opposed to it's just the flu. And Kamala Harris took some heat for a role, as you know, with the cup. Right. But understanding the system. Right.

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And having a different shift of a view now from where she sits now, I think black folks and black voters are hopeful, hopeful.

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Again, we've been let down and failed before by people we care, we care about and we love. But I think there is hope that Kamala will be everything, or at least some of what people hope she'll be.

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You know, and Jonathan, during his victory speech, Joe Biden said directly to the black community, he spoke directly to black voters and he said, you've always had my back and I'll have yours. That was a direct message to black voters. It was something unusual for a politician to do. I'm not sure that Barack Obama ever did it that directly.

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Yes. Yes, actually, that's probably true. But, you know, when it comes to Joe Biden, one thing we know about, about President elect Biden, he's very sentimental person. He never forgets and never forgets in a good way. He hasn't forgotten who saved him, who saved his campaign in South Carolina during the Democratic primaries, who saved his campaign during the Super Tuesday contests that came after that. So, you know, Joe Biden is someone who is grateful.

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He's so human in that way. He is grateful for the support he's gotten.

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Joe Biden will not forget what African-Americans did for him to make him. The 40 sixth president of the United States when I was hearing from people is that they wanted that person to earn the spot, that they should be there because they were qualified, which made me roll my eyes, roll my eyes, because all of the black women who were being considered were qualified.

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But the fact that Kamala Harris was chosen, that argument that, oh, well, she was just chosen because she's black, dissolved. Once people focus in on, well, why was she chosen? She was the attorney general of California.

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She ran statewide. She ran for president.

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She showed on the campaign trail that not only did she want to vie for the nomination, but she wasn't afraid to throw a punch in order to show people she was willing to fight for the job and to come back to your to your original question about Joe Biden and his talking about reminding people that he did not forget and hasn't forgotten and will not forget about the people who sent him, sent them to the White House in that in that debate, Kamala Harris showed Joe Biden.

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And because Joe Biden is an old school politician, he's not afraid of punches being thrown in. Sure, he was stung.

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We all watched it with our own eyes. But what it told him was she's serious, she's for real, she's tough.

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And she's the kind of person who, if I get the nomination now that I have the nomination, she's the person I want to be with me in battle when when we win the White House and when we're going to have to go up against this Republican Party.

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A lot of it is about her mom. And her mom, of course, was an immigrant to this country from India. Her dad was an immigrant from Jamaica. But her mom is like a big part of her narrative when she tells her own story. And we saw a lot of Southeast Asian women also joyful. I've talked to Indian American women who were just as jubilant as black women are about the election of the Kamala Harris ticket. How do you think that her elevation to this highest spot that we've ever seen a woman of color ever achieve in this country, how does that impact women more broadly, do you think?

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Again, representation matters. You know, you have Indian American women feeling a tremendous sense of pride in this moment. Madam Vice President elect Harris did give a nod to her mother, Shamala, from the acceptance speech stage, noting that, you know, her mom probably could not have imagined that her daughter would have been standing in that position, but but came to this country seeing its promise and seeing its possibility for herself and and then for her daughters. And so we have to think of an Kamala Harris called by name the black suffragists who made our access to the franchise possible, Fannie Lou Hamer, Mary Church, Terrell, Mary McLeod Bethune, Adibi Wells, Ella Baker.

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You know these women who are on whose shoulders she. She acknowledged them even as president elect Biden acknowledged that black people were the ones who got him to this moment in history for him. And let me just say one word on on president on Joe Biden's relationship to the black community. This is something that that extended far beyond the South Carolina primary. It extended beyond this election. Joe Biden has a half a century relationship with black folks. Delaware is the eighth most populous state for black people in this country.

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He does not have a career in politics if it is not for black people, period, not just this year, but his whole career. He understands and he has had a relationship and he has had to campaign to black folks. And so I think his acknowledgment of of of that was not just about this election, but I think the contribution that black people have have made to his entire political career and how he plans to translate that into governing with Kamala Harris obviously being the first signal of that.

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But even as he is, you know, putting together this transition team, even as he is planning his administration, the black women who are already factoring into that process, I think is proof of his commitment to govern with with black folks in mind. But, you know, Kamala Harris is quixotic. 20 20 Democratic presidential primary campaign is really just a case study of what it means to be a black woman in American politics. Right. Qualified and talented candidate with a pioneering resume and yet a narrative that neither the press nor voters were familiar with.

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And I think that I think the other level of intersectionality that Kamala Harris is bringing to the table is also on her immigrant roots. I know that the Jamaicans in my life are going to be unmanageable for the next four years because they are so thrilled that one of their own is there. And I think that Kamala is somebody who's kind of she's sort of everyone has a piece of her. Jonathan, I go to you on this because I think you were actually talking to her for your podcast when she stopped to do a recipe for Indian food and she did a full recipe and then got back on the phone with you.

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I think it was with you. But either way, I think that she does understand her intersectional appeal in a really specific way because she lives it. But there's a lot more to it. I mean, her husband will be the first male second spouse. He'll be the first Jewish American to be within the top for first spouse, second spouse. There's never been a Jewish American person in any of those spots, whether the spouse or the candidate. She might be the first step mom.

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There's so many things that she's bringing to the table, not to mention the immigrant background. And being a black woman in politics, she's bringing a lot to the table.

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Yeah, Vice President elect Harris is bringing a lot to the table. But I do want to correct one thing. It wasn't a recipe for Indian food. My husband, Nick, had asked me to ask Carmela for her advice on how to bring a turkey. And so in between during the commercial break, I asked her and she started talking and I was like, this is like a foreign language to me. Let me record this and then I'll just send the memo to Nick.

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And it showed the real Kamala Harris, high powered, intelligent, driven.

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But if you ask her for any kind of cooking advice, she's there and she's ready and she will jump in no matter that she's got a minute to go before going live on television to make the case for her candidacy. She's she's ready to do it and wants to do it, but that you raise all the good points about her intersectionality and she brings all of those things to the table. She doesn't try to hide any of them. She brings her full self.

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She talked about her her late in life, quote unquote, late in life marriage. She talked about her stepchildren but doesn't call her, doesn't call. And her stepchildren, she calls them her children. She also talks about the fact that she is good friends with her husband's ex-wife and how, you know, the relationship that they have very she lives a very real life that people can see people can relate to.

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They look at her and they see her juggling all these things, juggling a career, but also juggling a family and and embracing her immigrant roots, all of her immigrant roots, but also sort of messing with people by identifying as African-American and forcing the country to have a conversation about identity.

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I don't know if Tramaine or Aaron had this experience of watching our our white colleagues in the press scratching their head. How sweet. But she's not African-American. She black, she black. But how does she how's that possible?

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And a. Like, no, she's black and also she contains multitudes, right, I mean, look, exactly among them among the many communities that that have latched on to Kamala Harris and the symbolism and the substance that she represents are going to be the BCU community. Again, representation matter so much and all of the ways in which she represents, I think about at the end of her presidential campaign, the the cooking video she did with Mindy Kaling right there making Indian food.

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And she's reminiscing. And it's bringing back all these memories about her and her mother and and cooking and her love of cooking and kind of where that comes from. I mean, that was the Indian community was thrilled to see that on display from this, again, black woman, you know, but who was raised with a sense, an awareness of her culture and where everywhere that she came from. And I think that that is something that we are going to see her bringing into the White House and bringing into her role as the second most powerful person in the country and what it means to be to be black in the diaspora.

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Right. It's not where the boat, you know, dropped you off. It's where they picked you up, right where Jamaican father and we are bringing up all these things. Right. And so to have a Jamaican father, an Indian mother, that's not anything too out of the world in the realm of possibility for us especially. We contain multitudes. And I think I say this with all journalistic objectivity.

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She does fly, though, like the people that Kamala Harris, that's the V.P. and the I say that, you know, at arm's length as a journalist, listen, she she she come out to Mary J.

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She on stage and they met. And that's the only thing I forgot to name wrote the column.

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Her dancing is her. Whatever. This is Peggy Noonan. Peggy know you should be you should be thankful for the privilege to come on. We get support from tax base, they know that it's not easy to prioritize yourself when there's a lot on your plate, but investing in your mental health has long term benefits. And with tax base, it can actually be affordable. Now, unlike in-person therapy sessions, talk space gives you 24/7 access to your online therapy room so you can send unlimited messages to your dedicated therapist and they'll respond daily, five days a week.

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[00:34:27]

Let's talk about some of the expectations you have. I'll start with you, Trymaine, because, listen, this is going to be a daunting presidency. Let's just be blunt. We have a pandemic that, as the day that we're recording, has killed some 240000 Americans. More than 10 million Americans have been sickened, disproportionately black, brown and indigenous folks. It's killing people at a rate that is like a 9/11 a day. And it's devastating, particularly in some of the same places that the Kamala Harris and Joe Biden ticket, the the I should say, the Joe Biden and Kamala Harris ticket relied on to win.

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And they've got to now do something about that in the face of some often violent resistance to the basic things that we need to do to try to save ourselves in this pandemic and still deal with issues like systemic racism. You still have police killings that are not abated by the pandemic. You have Joe Biden having promised to fix the crime bill to amend it. He has promised that he would do something about making it less onerous on communities of color, particularly black communities.

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So he's got a lot on his plate, not to mention immigration, not to mention trying to reunite, you know, between 500 and a thousand migrant kids with their parents. Let's talk about some setting of of expectation levels and how that is working, particularly in black communities that really need a lot of this stuff done.

[00:35:54]

So this is this is where it gets actually tough, right. So starting out with the fact that Trump ism isn't going anywhere. Right. So Donald Trump leave the White House, you're still going to be engaging with the lingering remnants of what that means, right? People who see themselves as patriots and all the danger and violence that that could bring. But we also more more fundamentally have to look at the Democratic Party and who does the party want to be and wrestling with does it, you know, retreat back to the center right and forget its true base?

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You know, will they actually reimagine the party's actual base and not have as Eddie Glaude told me the other day, this kind of fantasy of what a Democratic voter looks like. And he's in Youngstown, Ohio, and his granddaddy worked at the coal mine. And here he is, you know, where they had a good union job and all that stuff. Or do you look at the black communities who in the face of very stubborn political movement, sometimes we've been failed time and time and time again.

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And as they say, can you rebuild master's house with his own tools? Right. Are we ready to engage with an actual reshaping and reimagining of our politics and what it means to be an American, let alone the idea of America? But the actual work begins now because we have the end of one thing and the beginning of something else. And how far are we willing to go as Americans? So in terms of of this opportunity, I think there is more hope than there's been in four years.

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There's more hope now. And I think people believe in Kamala Harris, believe in Joe Biden, and I think they would do themselves a disservice. I talked to two brothers who were organizing in strip clubs to get people out to vote. Brothers who were formed bike clubs to get out the vote, brothers and sisters were going to places meeting people where they actually are, not where we hope them to be, but where they are all in pursuit of some idea of justice and the change that they believe Kamala Harris and Joe Biden presidency could bring.

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And so operating in the actual mechanics of machine America always is going to be America. And so it's just a matter of, you know, how far we stretched it. So I'd be and I'm not a cynic or a natural skeptic, but there's always, you know, there's reconstruction and then there's redemption. Right. So the concern is what we build. How easily could be torn down.

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Well, and you make that reconstruction to redemption analogy. And we recall that redemption was this violent end to reconstruction that came through the election of Rutherford B. Hayes, in which Florida decided the election in a compromise was made to let him be president and to take troops out of the south, which meant the end of the attempted liberation, the true liberation of the formerly enslaved. So it was violent. It was where the Klan was born. That's American history.

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That's the way it normally looks. And it was relatively short, Jonathan. Reconstruction, as you know, particularly as it is, compared to the amount of time and the number of centuries that that black folks were enslaved in this country. And this administration, at least from what Joe Biden has indicated, will be four years. We're not looking at Joe Biden looking to run for re-election necessarily. He might change his mind. He might try to run again.

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But in the event that we're talking about four years to do all that people are hoping for with, you know, vice president I mean, president elect, I should say, president like Biden, having promised that he's going to deliver real change, what can we really expect, particularly when you're looking across the gallery and Mitch McConnell, who has made it clear that he's not interested in allowing anything to change?

[00:39:20]

Exactly.

[00:39:22]

Because it's one thing to have goals and plans. It's another thing to have an opposition.

[00:39:28]

And the opposition that the Biden Harris administration is going to face is going to be formidable because they had eight years to sharpen their skills when President Obama and then Vice President Biden were in office. And now what we're facing is a Senate that could be split even 50 50 if the two runoff Georgia runoff seats go to the Democrats, with Vice President Kamala Harris being the tie breaking vote. Or we could have a situation where the Republicans win those Georgia seats, stay in those Georgia Senate seats.

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And Mitch McConnell is still Senate majority leader, doing his level best to squelch any kind of momentum, any kind of of success that a Biden Harris administration would try to would try to achieve, even if it's meant to. Whatever legislation they propose is meant to help the American people, no matter where they live. And so that is what that is what the Biden Harris administration is is facing. They're already facing it in the transition where the president won't concede.

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And you've got Republicans who are playing into the theater that they don't need to recognize the incoming administration.

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But I do think that there is that there is opportunity here. And I'm thinking to your question to TRAMAINE and remains respons. You know, there's so much repair that needs to happen for America with the Biden Harris administration both at home and abroad.

[00:41:15]

And it is my I anticipate that President Biden will be spending a lot of time. Repairing America's relationship with the allies, repairing America's image abroad, which would then require Vice President Harris to focus domestically. Whether or not there's a 50 50 split in the Senate, if there's a 50 50 split in the Senate, she becomes infinitely more important. She's already important. But then she'll be infinitely more important to your point about the potential of a president elect by not running again in four years.

[00:41:59]

It is going to be vitally important that Vice President Harris have the the the power and the portfolio to be able to make the case to the American people that she should be entrusted with the Oval Office. And I can't imagine Joe Biden, who was President Obama's VP and probably one of the most powerful vice presidents we've had in the nation's history.

[00:42:28]

He wants he wanted for himself what he gave to Barack Obama when they were in the White House. And so my anticipation is that Kamala Harris is going to be an incredibly powerful vice president. She will be an empowered vice president. She will be and she will be a powerful and equal partner.

[00:42:50]

But we're also going to have a powerful opposition that is going to do everything possible to ensure that President Joe Biden doesn't have as many wins and successes as he would like, but also their long term game to ensure that there is no President Kamala Harris to succeed him, particularly since Donald Trump has made noises that he would like to be the candidate in twenty, twenty four.

[00:43:19]

And so that might be the next contest that we're talking about on podcast and on TV. But, Erin, you know, to the point that Jonathan just made for the next two months, while these battles are being hashed out and planned out and the Biden Harris administration is preparing to take power, Kamala Harris will still be a United States senator. She'll be probably the most talked about bude important in many ways, United States senator among the one hundred there with lots of eyes on her.

[00:43:53]

And so my final question is, how do you expect her to use that power, knowing what she's bringing to the table as a former prosecutor, as somebody who's quite good on the dais questioning folks when there will be more hearings and God knows what else is going to be going on in Mitch McConnell Senate during the lame duck. What do you expect her to do with that power over the next two months?

[00:44:13]

Well, I think that, again, as as the lone black woman in the Senate, she is somebody who has translated that symbolism into substance, attempting to hold her Republican counterparts accountable, continuing to raise issues around, you know, marginalized communities and people of color and, you know, what they are looking for to be full participants in this democracy.

[00:44:39]

And so even as she is focused on her transition to this historic role, I think that that she will she will continue to be a fighter in the Senate and until she vacates that seat to mainly Jonathan Capehart, Aaron Haynes, thank you for that great discussion. Really appreciate all of you. Thank you. Thank you. That was Pulitzer Prize winner, opinion writer for The Washington Post and an MSNBC contributor, Jonathan Capehart, editor at large of the 19th, and MSNBC contributor Aaron Haynes, as well as Pulitzer Prize and Emmy Award winner, MSNBC correspondent and host of Into America, mainly from MSNBC.

[00:45:23]

And wonder why this is episode seven of Comilla next in line. This is a series about the making of Kamala Harris. If you want to help us spread the word, please give us a five star rating and a review on Apple podcast and be sure to tell your friends.

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[00:45:58]

I'm your host, Joy Reid. Associate producers are Chris Siegel and Alison Bailey. Production and research help from Kerry.

[00:46:04]

Dan and Julie Serkin, production assistant from Hank Butler, music supervisor Scott Velasquez, managing producer Lutter Pandya, sound design by Lindsey Graham with assistance from Derek Barens, Executive Producer for MSNBC by Saraya Gage, executive produced by George Lavander, Marshall Lui and Hernan Lopez, for one wondering.

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