Hi, and welcome to this episode of Kie the Posit, sweetie. I'm Krista Renee-Hazelit. And today we are talking Father's Day with one of my favorite people, the Kirk Franklin.

Yep. I don't know if I'm one of your favorite people because you would have had something established for me to sit comfortably. We know there's a height challenge that I exist in. And these little fancy new modern couches, they take away your masculinity. I don't know how I feel about being here, but I'm going to help and get this done so I can go and sit on the regular couch, the way regular people sit. First question. Let's go. Let's go.

Wrapped this up. Let's go.

The strike is over. I've got things to do. Let's go. Hello. Me too. I got to study.

Thank you, Lord. What's up, Queen? You look so silly. How are you doing, sir? I'm doing good, Queen. Good. Thank you so much for coming. Thank you. I like to start every episode with a song or a quote. And the song that comes to mind with you sitting on my couch is a song that has guide me through so much and that has hold me down. Wow. Yes. And we're going to talk about that in this episode. I need you to know what you have done with just your voice, your lyrics, your music.

No, I'm not. My voice literally, ladies and gentlemen.

I like your when you do the talking, singing thing.

Yeah, well, yeah, okay. I just want to- It works.

Only you can do that.

My favorite. I'm finding that out.

But for those of you who don't know, Kirk is a songwriter, producer, choir director, gospel singer, best known for leading urban, contemporary gospel and Christian R&B ensemble such as The Family, God's Property, One Nation, Crew, among others. Straight off.

Of Google, continue.

You have won 19 Grammy Awards?

I've only won about two or three. What happens is the other ones, I go to the Grammys, and when people go to the bathroom, I grab their Grammys, and I got a homeboy that's still locked down in jail, and he can take a nameplate, and he put my name on the front. I just wanted to.

Be honest. So the other 17 were actually somebody else's.

Just go ahead and put these on the screen.

Yes. And you are one of the inaugural inductees of the Black Music and Entertainment Walk of Fame. That's huge.

No, I'm grateful.

For that. Amazing. Oh, my gosh. I want to tell the viewers the first time that I was introduced to you. This is in the 90s. I had to be probably 10, 11-ish when I was first introduced to you. I shared this with your wife. I said, Kirk doesn't understand that when he came on the scene, I was raised Methodist. No shade to any Methodist. No, you know what I'm saying? But it's.

Not the.

Most- You just didn't clap. You didn't clap.

We did not clap.

We didn't clap. But we did transition where we actually sang some of your songs in my church because I think they realized we got to switch some things up. We can't just keep singing hymnals all day.

That was at AMC?

I was United Methodist.

Okay. Yeah. Oh, so you were more of the.

White side. Catholic. Yeah, almost Catholic because we were in sight a lot during service. And you helped me find my own relationship with God because I always felt like this can't be it. It didn't excite me. There was nothing where I was like, I really just want to be on fire for God. Until you came along and it was relatable. And I was like, Okay, I can talk to God how I talk. I don't have to, I believe in God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, energy. So that thank you, seriously. And then 2019, I met you the first time. I'm not sure if you remember this, but it was the grand opening of Tyler Perry Studios, the new studio. And we had the gospel brunch that Sunday after the grand opening.

And.

There was lines going everywhere for food. And you had a plate of shrimp and grits. And I said, Where did you get them shrimp and grits? And he was like, Over there. But the line is long. Here take mine. I was like, No, no, no. He's like, Take it, girl. It's not giving any food. Take it. Wow. And I took it and I was like, Wow, that's a nice person. So that was my first interaction with you in real life. And then- Did you eat? I did. I tore them up. They were good. I'm sorry.

You didn't get any. No, it's okay. First that and now the couch. We're just.

Moving in a certain direction. Yeah. It's a-.

First question. Let's go.

Oh, my goodness.

Oh, my goodness. But it's all about this. This is the mood. It's so arrogant. Let's go.

Let's go. Wrapped this up. But on a more serious note, I opened up about when I was a teenager, I had suicidal thoughts. And I would sit in my floor of my bedroom and play, Hold me Now over and over and over again. And it was as if God literally was holding me. And to this day... I tried not to cry. We can see how we went from this to that quick because how really what it is. To this day, when I hear that song, I cry. And I was talking to a friend of mine. Markies and I actually do car chronicles where we sing and we play that song. And if you went to my page and looked at the comments, everybody loved it. They're like, Oh, my God. That is my song. They went back and started playing. I'm sure your ratings and your spins went up after that.

But.

No, seriously, you definitely helped me through a really tough time. And now I cry for a different reason. What's going to do? We're going to break this up, okay?

No, this is a beautiful moment. Let's stay right here. I'm good. I can tell you that I have always lived in a dichotomy of I knew I loved God, but I had a hard time believing that he loved me.

Now.

That people are more exposed to the backstory of who I am and my experiences with my father, I got you. I'm closer to it. Thank you. I'm closer to it.

Thank you.

I have lived with this space that a lot of things that have been written have not always been what I feel, but what I imagine. It hasn't always been this confident truth that I've always worked from. Even when I think about that song, I was like, Oh, yeah, that's right. That's another one. That's another one that I was screaming out for help for, and people didn't even realize that I was screaming out for help. I was wondering, Can you hold me now? It's because you're right. That's a very abnormal conversation for someone to have in a gospel-song.

But that's been the space that I've lived and always wanting, always searching for what I did not have in the physical world that I lived in. And so I was trying to always ask God, it's because when you talk about anxiety and depression, I've lived in that space my.

Whole life.

And it is very humbling.

To.

Know that a song that, for me, was just a moment of.

Speaking.

To a little girl somewhere that I didn't even know. I think that's the big, beautiful, chaotic, painful journey of life.

It is, yeah.

It's the dichotomy. It's the duality of reality. I'm extremely humbled and extremely grateful to know that what wasn't mine became yours.

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for that.

Thank you.

This year, you dropped a documentary about finding out that you're a biological father was still alive. I watched it and I wept uncontrollably. And when you posted it on your Instagram, I typed in the comments, I just want you to know that all the mess and everything that you thought you were going through ended up helping so many people. And there was so much beauty in that. I want to talk about, when I watched it, I was just like, Oh, my goodness. We look at you as like, You're like everybody's uncle, everybody's brother, and people don't even know you. You're that figure to them. How have you been able to navigate that? Even still, because you're on tour now, it's almost like your life just had to keep going. But how are you taking time to really deal with it?

Sometimes I don't know if you ever really do. If we were honest, I think every human in some capacity is always running from something. I think that the biggest problem with American Christianity is we want American Christianity to be wrapped in these perfect bowels that it's got to look pretty. It's because the imagery that we portray is a lot of times the stained glass windows and people on their Sunday best and talking, Hey, brother. God bless you, sister. Right. Hallelujah. Tbn and everything is super. And life is messy.

It is.

Life is messy. Life is dirty. Life can get ugly. And you wonder, where's the guide in the midst of all that chaos? And what I don't know doesn't cancel out what I do know. But I'm still not afraid to acknowledge there's a lot I don't know. So I may be running forever because somebody's like, Well, no, there's got to be a blood.

No.

Now, scripture has a myriad of people. I remember in one of Paul's writings that he's just making a list of all of these people that lived by faith but never lived to see the promise happen.

That's the reality. Look at Moses. Moses would use to part the Red Sea but didn't make it into Cana.

Right.

Isn't that crazy? It's like my nigga. He didn't make it in. That's the reality of what we live in. I am learning, though, to be okay with that. I'm learning to be okay that there will be some crosses I got to carry. There'll be some lips that I'll have. And from those places have come, for others, some of the most beautifully painful songs that I see reach people like an Imagine Me. I went on the beach sipping on my tie with flip flops on. I'm going to write, Imagine Me. I'm like, Life is ugly. I've got a song, one hit, and here you go.

During those times, and I know this is still fresh for you, did you ever question God? God, why did it take so long to find this out?

I question God all the time. I was questioning God.

Before that.

Really? I question God all the time. When you see a family on the way to church and you hear the whole family died in a car wreck or you meet people that have cancer, and then you see fools living a life, and they live until they're 70 and 80 still being fools. I mean, I question God all the time. And God welcomes the conversation. He does. Because the questions, at least we're talking.

And.

He's we're talking.

And.

He welcomes the conversation. And once again, I think that so much deconstruction of religious dogma that we've been programmed to believe has to happen for people to have a clear understanding that for most people of color, this fear of what we can't do and can't say to God is really burnt in a colonized version of what Christianity was introduced to a displaced people to control them. And so all of that has to be deconstructed. So we can so it's because what we've got to understand so clearly is that Western Christianity and the teachings of Jesus Christ are not synonymous. They are not the same. Who Jesus is and what we a lot of times teach in Western Christianity is dogma and ideology that has nothing to do with the pure heart of Jesus Christ. Yeah.

Wow. I remember just recently, while you were on this tour, a man was outside the venue.

Oh, no, not this tour.

What tour.

Was that? That was four years ago. Somebody just resurrected it. Somebody just resurrected.

What? Okay, I thought that was happening in real time.

Oh, my goodness. I wouldn't be able to talk to somebody like that now. I was like, Man, this pandemic. I don't know you.

Right. But you literally took time to meet with this man after. And he ridiculed you just for how you dance and your lyrics. We do have to deconstruct because everybody's gotten so literal, almost, where they're taking it and taking it their God.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then also, it is an extension of the heart of a pharisee, right? That what I don't understand, I dismiss. And so it is in the process of being able to engage with people to get an understanding of why they maneuver and how they maneuver, and to not demonize or to try to put scripture to things that may not be my cup of tea. Kirch is may not be your cup of tea.

Yeah, and.

That's okay. And that's okay. Sometimes I'm not my cup of tea. Some days I get.

On my nerves.

Have you ever had days where you're like- Girl.

Get it together. Lip, yes.

So if you have that with you, why would you not understand that everybody's not going to process and connect with you in certain ways and still give them grace for God to keep doing the work.

In there. That's good. I love that. Now that you know who your father is, how are you integrating that into your life? I don't know. Have you guys spent any time together?

Yeah, but it is still the weirdest thing for me. And he's a great guy.

Seemed like a really, really nice guy.

He's a great guy. Just because you've been introduced to love don't know. It doesn't mean you're not a process of when you see it. That's good. Yes, not automatic. And I think once again, we've watched so much TV. We've watched so many movies. We've read so many romance novels that we want happy endings to everything quickly.

That's been me in a relationship. One guy told me, he's like, Crystal, it's not a fairy tale. Get that out of your head.

But I'm the same.

Way though.

Really? Okay. I romanticize everything.

Yes. Oh, my gosh. I'm the same way. Because my biological mother passed when I was two. I feel like a part of me always wonders what parts of me are like her. And now that you know your dad, do you see any like, Oh, that's where I get that from? Or, Oh, now things are starting to make a little more sense.

About you. I have not had it just been a whole lot of time. We've been able to have moments. There are things, but there are things that I know that probably for the both of us still need to row. But because he's headstrong, he's ambitious. Like you. I'm very much him. I'm very much him. But he's a good man. He's a good man. He is. He's somebody that I could definitely look up to. Well, we're the same height, but you know what I mean? But I think that more than anything, it's just me. It's just the trauma. And then you also got to remember something very important. There was a man in my life that I believed to be my father. Well, no, not in my life. There was a man that I knew of that I believed to be my father all of my life. And I hated this man all of my life because he wasn't my father. And I need to try to make this really clear. I did not hate him because I did not want him to be my father. I hated him because I wanted him to be my father.

That's a different type of energy. And so now that I have been introduced to my father, it doesn't mean that I go, Oh, okay. It's like I have over half a.

Century of.

Hate and anger that I've lived with that now has to be reprogrammed and once again, deconstructed because of what I believed him to be. Now I'm left with a lot of pieces that I'm having to maneuver through. It takes time, and I'm not going to rush so that people can have another Hallmark move. I'm not going to do that.

Don't.

Do not. I'm not going to do that. That doesn't benefit anybody involved. I'm going to take my time to do what it is I need to do in the process. I'm 53 years old. I'm not looking for no daddy.

Right. At this age, right.

At.

53.

He going to pick me up from school. What are you going to do? What are we going to do? I've got to maneuver. And then once again, If I have to divorce my heart from what I thought it was.

And.

This man went to his grave, knowing that I hated him. He went to his grave. So that hurts, too. He didn't.

Deserve it.

There's a lot there. And the tour has been wonderful because I've been able to get away. Now that the tour is ending, I can be honest, I do feel anxiety.

Because you're not going to have to sit in it.

For a minute. I know I got to go home.

And.

I know I got to maneuver. That's good.

Tell me a little bit more about the relationship that you had with your... Did you even have a relationship with the man you thought was your father?

I'm adopted. I was adopted when I was four by a 64-year-old woman named Gertude. Gertude was a widow. She was born in 1908. Wow. I know, had a fourth grade education, and she recycled cans and newspapers to pay for my piano lessons. Matter of fact, Gertude died before she ever heard any of my music recorded. She never heard any music recorded. In marginalized communities, it is not uncommon for kids to be raised by people, but still there may be some visual engagement, maybe once, twice, two, three times a year with their biological parents. It's very dysfunctional, but it's real. Because a lot of times outside of our communities, a child that's adopted is in a system, a type of adoption agency where they don't know their biologicals and they get adopted. Now they still have a pain of knowing they're adopted, but at least they're introduced to a family and not takes them in. A lot of times in our community, you can be adopted and still know your biological. It's a scar that never heals. It's a scar that stays open because every time that biological leaves to go with a borifirin or go wherever, you want to know why you're not good enough to go with them.

That's what I've lived with my whole life. When I was six years old, I was introduced to the man that at this point I thought was my biological father. His father died, picked me up and took me to the funeral. I believe he probably wouldn't have even done that. But the funeral was at a church in that neighborhood that I was living in with Gurtu. I met him then. I didn't see him again until I was 13. I didn't see him again until after my first album came out, and then he started trying to show up at concerts, which pissed me off. We show and we're going to have a relation.

Behind my guy. Yes.

No relation. That's how that would start to be. After that, I would even hate him more. It was not a man that tried to pursue me at any point, tried to show up for anything. It wasn't until after. And by the time I'm 23 years old, 25 years old, and that just.

Didn't work for me.

Absolutely. That's really the context of...

Of him. Okay. So with your father, now we know this is your biological father, and you say he's a good man.

I think he's a good man.

Was there any point after meeting him that Little Kirk was like, Dang, I missed out? Hey, sweetie. We're going to get back to this week's episode after another episode of Cousins. Today, we're here to talk about the toughest truck from our sponsors. Tough is in your DNA. It drives your resilience. Even when they told you that, you couldn't. You did what no one else could. And that's because you're different from the rest. Every day you work hard to conquer challenges, making the impossible happen. And tomorrow, you'll do it all over again with a truck that's just as tough as you. Explore the best Ford truck for you today at ford. Com, built Ford Tough.

I can be candid with you that there was and there is a part of me that was very angry at God. It's because I give it to you in this capsulet space. God and his sovereign plan, because we believe in the sovereignty of God. We believe all things work together. We believe everything good, bad, and ugly, either God creates or that God allows it. That's the sovereignty of plan. That's the doctrine of sovereignty. God and his sovereign plan allowed my biological father to be ten minutes away from me my entire life. I didn't know it. In that space, I developed some bad habits, became very promiscuous, girls trying to find a love in girls that I didn't have at my mama. It's because my mama wasn't there either. Those habits, as you now become a Christian, now those habits are sins.

Do.

You know where I'm going? I do, yes. God and His sovereignty allowed this absence of the Father, I developed bad habits, and then as I got older, then I become sin. God allowed absence of thepain that created now something that he hates.

I.

War with that. My God. I war with that. I do. I do. I do. I war with that.

I can imagine because as a young boy, you're just looking to fill a void.

That's how you're doing. And I was never the dude that was like, Yo, man, I got this girl. Girls were never a chess match for me. You know what I mean? It was never trophies. It was always that absence of mama. But when you're young and you have sexual urges and desires like a human would, it is how you interpret and how you try to maneuver in what you think love is. And then you realize that it's a very shallow approach to love, but it's what you know.

And so for God and his sovereign plan to allow that space, because again, in the hood, there's no after-school programs, and they can't say, What do kids do in the hood? You played a little game, How do I go get it. You don't even got it. You didn't even got it. He didn't even got it with my camera. He didn't got it. He sure got it. He got it again and again and again.

Again.

You just developed bad things that were allowed in a space of God's sovereign, sovereignly, making this emptinessness. I struggle. I don't need Christians trying to give me a theological answer. Let me struggle. I struggle. David struggled.

Job struggled.

We struggle. We struggle. Paul says, I see through a glass darkly now. I don't understand everything now. Let us struggle. I don't know what that is about Christians. We think that we always got to have the answer, the solution, everything. Sometimes the greatest thing, one of the things that pisses me off more than anything is that when somebody's child dies and the Christian is saying, Well, God needed another angel. My neck and board... I just think that that is the most.

Offensive thing. It is, and insensitive.

Yeah, just shut up, bro.

Yes. Don't say anything.

Just shut up. And these are the things that I want people to understand that we do not offend. If God is our father. I have kids. Ain't nothing my kids can ever say to me that's going to ever stop me from being a... We've seen some of my life live out publicly. I'm still a daddy. I'm still there.

I love that. Let's tap on that real quick. Everybody saw the viral video of you going in. What viral? I don't know. Of you going in on your son. You don't remember that?

Is it something new you're going to reveal? I don't know.

Watch the video. Y'all are joking. But I remember watching it and I was like, I think most of the black community was like, There ain't nothing. The overly Christian people like, Oh, you shouldn't do that. And that's not Christian-like. And he shouldn't do that. But I hang of. When I thought, I was like, Oh, that's just a normal talking to. But as I thought about it and just thinking of our culture and how we have began to normalize like, Oh, that's fine. You know what I'm saying? That's how my mom talked to me, and we turned that all right. But exactly, it doesn't make it right.

It doesn't make it right. And that did not make me right. That was a moment that I was very disappointed in. And I have to hold that. I can allow for any situation to allow me to get to that space. I can be honest and say that often, that ain't the first time I've been pulling up on somebody like that. I have that Napoleon thing, and I want all the smoke. And if you cross me wrong, it's like I... And that's one of my weaknesses. That's one of my struggles, and it's still my struggle. If I see somebody being treated wrong, I like to jump in and take up for them, and everywhere they're going to be, I pray for you, brother. It's going to be... And I struggle. It's not right. It's not right. But I'm not going to act in front of people that I've got it all together. I want to acknowledge that it was something I did wrong. My son was 33 at the time, 32, 33. So again, I'm also talking to somebody who put themselves in position of a man. And we were happy because his audio was on there too.

It was, yes.

You.

Guys.

Were like, I'm afraid of what you're saying.

That's how you want to talk? And his response was like, Why are you talking to me like that? It wasn't that. His response was like, What? You what? So you know I was two men. But again, somebody got to be the bigger person. And I wasn't. And I hate that too, man. And the reason why I also hated it is because I knew the state of my son, and that should have allowed me to be more gracious.

I feel like that in itself is a message to parents.

Yeah, man, I knew the state of my son. Buti just said, It just caught me wrong because I hadn't talked to, when he recorded me, I hadn't talked to Kareon. That was the second time I talked to Kareon in two, two and a half years. Those conversations were back to back, one weekend and next weekend, and they were both bad. Because the audio that you all heard, they were two separate conversations. He had recorded me twice.

Oh, my goodness. Did you feel betrayed?

Yes, I did. Yes, I did. Yes, I did. Yes, I did. I felt very much betrayed. But again, it doesn't justify what I did. And again, I knew the state of my son. Let me also say this also, man. My son is a beautiful... I love him.

He's my firstborn.

I.

Love him. He's so handsome. He's so talented. Oh, man, this kid has so much talent. Well, this young, this girl right now. He's 35 now. He's 35 now. I love him and I still believe in him. We've got a lot of work that we have to do, but it's a lot of work that I'm committed to do.

Good.

I love that. Oh, man, he's my son. He's my son. He's my firstborn. And me and this boy have been tight. He was my road dog. When my career first took off, I remember being at... And he was five. I remember being at high school, signing autographs, my first album, signing autographs. My first album sign the autographs. And we looked down and this little Negro signing all that. He was my guy, but he is my guy. He's been all over the world with me.

That's.

Amazing. He's been all over the world with me. Wow. That's my guy.

I saw on your documentary, you had a conversation with him and told him that you had found your father and you all had a very warm embrace. What did that moment feel like for you? Because I know that's when I lost it all. I was crying the whole episode. But then that's when I was Because it felt like we were there through it.

With you guys. I hadn't seen him in over 10 years. I hadn't seen him in over 10 years when that happened. So when I saw him for the first time before that Doc, it had been over a decade. Just to get a chance to embrace him, to hold him, it was beautiful for me. It was beautiful for me because I had been able to.

Just touch him.

He's been through a lot. He's been through a lot. He's been through a lot. And I want more of that. And I'm very proud of the fact that the hard, deep work I see him doing, And I believe someday, when Karion is ready, he's going to be able to help a lot of young men. Wow. I'm telling you. I'm telling you. His story is going to be...

Oh, yeah.

That's amazing. Special.

I love that. With everything that you've gone through, you have had your beautiful wife, Tammy. Shout, Tammy. I love you, sister. You have had her by your side. And oftentimes, we see Kirk and you are the one that we see. You're the household name. But we don't think about how it's affecting everyone around you. And I saw... She was in a state of shock as well. When you found out that you got the DNA results back and you were on the phone, you're like, Say that again. My mom has lied to me my whole life. How has it affected, Tammy? Because sometimes, I don't know if you're like me, I'm not the type of person where I need to be by myself.

That's the problem. That's it right there. I don't know if that's a creative thing, that's a thing of creatives. I don't know what that is. But I think that that's what I have to manage more than anything. The natural instinct to be alone.

First of all, shout out to Tammy Franklin. Tammy Franklin is a beautiful soul. She's an incredible woman. She's an amazing woman. And it takes a lot to be married to someone who has lived with so much of a traumatic... Because my experiences have not only been traumatically as far as natural family. My experiences have been traumatic when it comes to religion. When it comes to religion. Because think about it, man, as I've been inwe know this, I've been dogged my career, even by the music I do with the Church. I've been kicked out of churches. I've been kicked out of Bible colleges. It just takes a very special woman to be able to experience all of that. And yeah, this is a season where I find isolation and being alone, even something more that I gravitate to. I have to fight to try to be intentional, to be reminded. And especially now that my kids are gone. It's because my kids was interesting for me, and again, because I didn't have family. See, Tammy comes from a big family. So what was natural for her was very unnatural for me. Having kids gave me something to make up for all the hurt I didn't have not having a daddy.

I put it all in them. I put it all in them. Sometimes, even to the fault, I can be honest and say, and I've never said this on anything before, and I'll be transparent here to say, is that even to a fault that a lot of times I realized now that they were empty nesting, I probably invested even more into them.

Than.

I even sometimes didwith her, because with her, the natural man to do things is always the Red bottoms, the card, the purses. You're always doing the things that you think are the things.

And that's.

Not the things. And they're not the things. I am guilty of that. I am extremely guilty of that. It's not intentional. It's just what you end up doing because you're so busy trying to make it. And then when you come from poverty, you think that these things are the things that matter. But also it was a lot for me. A lot of the attention was, These kids cannot feel what I felt. They cannot feel what I felt. And not having a blueprint for being a daddy, I.

Overdid the dad.

You know what I mean? I would come in from the studio three or four o'clock in the morning and sit up in the chair so I wouldn't fall asleep so I could take him to school in the morning. Because they cannot feel it. They cannot feel it. And so that's what drove me.

But in all that, you feel like you were neglecting Tammy as well.

Well, that would be for her to say if it was neglecting.

Because she may not feel that way.

Yeah. But whatever she may feel, I look back and go, Man, I did not learn. And then it's also the thing is that some things are taught, some things are caught. I did not have a lot around me to be able to teach me some of the husband's stuff. Now, my spiritual father, I've spent a lot of time with him trying to learn how to be a husband, trying to learn how to be a god. I met Tony Evans.

I know. Yes, I saw you on his documentary. I know that's what you're talking about. Love him. He's my hero.

He's my hero. He's incredible. I know that I've still got a lot of learning. I think that this empty nesting thing has shook if me.

Because you have nothing... You're like, Wait, I got to sit in this for real. Look in the mirror. Baby.

And see, when people started to realize, Tammy and I got married with kids.

Oh, I didn't know that.

We've never lived by ourselves. Wow.

Okay. Yeah, I had carry on. So both of you are like-.

Not her as much. Me, because again, I come to the table with these family deficiencies.

I.

Got married on a Saturday and went on a plate that Tuesday. Oh, wow. And I've been gone ever since.

Ever since?

Yeah, you don't stop. And we had two kids already. And then we got pregnant less than a year in our marriage. So the kids became... And when you travel as much as I do, you do have the fear of the kids missing out. It's almost like as a man, the natural button is to think of the kids. I don't know what that is. You just naturally worry, Okay, well, I don't want these kids to miss me at their plate. I don't think they'll miss me. It's because I think that the life of the children and all that they're involved in becomes the priority for both parents at times. Because I was very blessed to be able to have a position where Tammy didn't have to go to work. I enjoyed watching her pour into these kids. That was our nucleus. Now that we don't have those things, I thought... And again, not her. Me, it's like, My babies are gone and I don't have anything to nurture. So I'm trying to find my way.

Wow. I can't imagine what that's like. And it's crazy because as adults, we start to look back and we're like, like you said, I never want them to feel what I felt.

Never.

Want them to feel what you felt. Never. But that little boy and that little girl never leaves us.

That's what it is. That's what it is. And again, that ain't got nothing to do with your spouse. Like I said, Tammy is a superwoman.

She is, man. Tammy is a superhero.

She's a supertiny. Tammy is one of the most kindest women. And again, Tammy is got great parents. Mom and Daddy, big old house. I came from sleeping in the car, you know what I mean? I pawned Gertrude's wedding ring when I was 20 because I was so hungry and had no food. I pawned her wedding ring and the lawnmower. That's how bad things were for me. You're just trying to.

Figure it out. Do you feel like you live... Because you've made it. But do you feel like you ever catch yourself living in a scarcity mindset, remembering being homeless and having the pons that you're bringing along.

With you? Always. There's never a mindset for me that I've made it. I don't feel like I've made it. Are you.

Kidding me?

Girl, are you kidding me? Because here's what you got to understand also. I'm also part of a musical genre that is a niche genre. I'm not doing mainstream music. I don't do mainstream. Now, I can't deny and say that the Lord has been extremely kind in my career, but you got to understand, I'm part of a genre that behind closed doors, I'm always dealing with issues. I am... Man, okay, here it is. Here it is. I am part of a genre that behind closed doors, I'm always knocking and begging. Because people on the bigger platforms, major corporations and companies, they don't believe in gospel music. They don't see the marketing value in gospel. You're always having to prove to them that it can work. There has never been a time in my career that itwhere the red carpet has been laid out.

Wow. It's Feast of Almond over here, my entire career. Baby girl, you about to ask, man. You about to ask. Out of all the tours that I've done in my life, and I've been touring for the last 25 years, I've only done two tours in my life that were profitable.

What?

It was the Hopeville tour, right after September 11th with Don McClerken and Yolanda Adams. It was profitable.

And.

The Maverick tour. That was the only tours that I personally was financially blessed to make money and come on money. Only two tours. Because everything else you're having to really invest in it yourself.

Oh, my goodness.

Yeah, man. In gospel music, that's why you don't really see people running to do gospel music. But it ain't like it's a flow of funds and flow of opportunities. No, gospel music is feast of famine.

So.

When you have a conversation with... If I made it, we're so busy knocking on doors. We don't even know what that means. We're so busy banging on doors. Give us a chance. Give us a chance. Oh, yeah. Always. My entire career.

Wow. You just never know. Because people like I look at you, I'm like, Oh, he's made it. He's been doing this since I can remember.

That's when you next time you call Tim, ask Timmy. Timmy tell you, man, all of the headaches and the tears and the discouragement. Oh, man, the nose. Because think about it, man. It's 2023. Talking about Jesus is like selling the amway, selling Avon, knocking on people's doors, trying to get people to believe in something they don't even use anymore. That a preach.

Right. Yes, preach. Trying to get them to believe in something.

That they don't even use anymore.

They don't even use it. Don't let that go over your head. My God. My God. Why haven't you given up? You talk about this industry does not support. You're constantly knocking on the door asking for help, but you haven't given up yet.

First of all, I'm too ambitious. I'm too ambitious. Let me tell you, I'm ambitious. I can't sit down. I'm hungry. I'm a new artist. Every record I approach as a new artist. I'm too, and I think some of that is that abandonment. I am fueled by my troubles. And I'm okay. I'm okay with it because I could be fueled doing some other things.

I'm fueled by my trauma. I'm too ambitious. I'm too hungry. I had a couple of younger producers come into my studio, and they saw the little whatever the stuff is that you be way or whatever. And one of them said, he said, OG, what's the secret? First of all, there's a man that called me OG. I was like.

Wait a minute. That's like people call me Auntie. I'm like, Y'all.

Stop it. Watch it. Calm that down. I said to him, I said, Well, I think I know what you're asking me, and so I'll give you the answer. I said, But it's not going to be sexy. My answer is not going to be sexy. I said, The answer is I am too insecure for you to forget me. I can't afford for you to forget me, so I'm going to do whatever I need to do to make sure that you don't forget me because I can't afford to be forgotten. Not in an arrogant state, just the fact of, Man, they can't forgive me. It's like I can't afford to be forgotten again. I know what it's like to be forgotten.

Jeez.

Kirk.

Kirk, with everything that you've been through, we are really big on mental health here in the Kibb community. You have had a therapist for over 20 years. Yeah, I know. Yes. Even before therapy was popular because we.

Just got there. And I should be getting a discount by now, Doc. I need a discount. I brought so many people to you. He's Nigerian. He's like, Oh, your documentary has got people calling me all over the place. I said, Man, can.

You cut me some slack here?

That's my man. I love him.

That's amazing. I love that you got into it before it was even popular. What made you say, I need therapy?

Because I was broken. I was broken. And I am wired naturally to seek help. That's who I am naturally. I get on people's nerves. I'm the type of person, if there's a bump on my pink toe, I'm at the doctor the next day.

What is that? That's good, though, because you never know.

Because I'm like, they're going to take my pinkie toe. And it's like the doctor comes in.

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It's a bunion. I'm like, Lord, what's a bunion? Because I'm just that type of person. I'm always wanting help. I always want help. I'm not afraid for help.

That's good.

And that could be.

That deficiency. Yeah, I was thinking that. But that's good you're not afraid to ask for it. At all. Because a lot of people would be oblivious or some people don't even.

Know they need it. No, I'm a black man that prays and she's a therapist.

That's amazing. Because I know people personally, they're like, I don't need therapy. I have Jesus. And I'm like, I'm not going to go to therapy.

And it sounds so dumb.

Say it again.

That sounds so dumb. I don't need therapy. I have Jesus. I have cancer, but I'm not going to get chemo because I have Jesus.

Right. Come on. Literally. Because I know they'll go get that chemo.

I think I'm not going to take a shower because I have Jesus. I'm hungry. I think you have another one. I'm hungry, but he's the bread of life. I have Jesus. I have Jesus.

Oh, my goodness. So good. So you talk about you constantly questioning God. You go through this phase where you question God a lot throughout your life, but not realizing that everything that you've done has allowed people not to. Through your career, through your songs. For me personally, you gave me reason. I can go on. I know that I can make it. I know that I can stand. Even though that's why I don't feel like a God-wise is happening, you've given everybody hope. Do you ever go through situations or question yourself behind closed doors? I know that I doubt and question God, but I'm telling these people, You can do it. You can do it.

And is that hypocritical? Yeah. One of the greatest illustrations of this level of honesty to me is the Apostle Paul. I love him. The Apostle Paul is this individual that God uses to write 90 % of the New Testament. He is the architect of the New Testament Church. And his letters to the churches, they set the trajectory of us understanding the ideal construct of grace, moving people from law and legalism, and yet in all of his writings and teachings and blueprints for us to be able to now be able to have personal access to God the Father through his resurrection, resurrected son, Jesus Christ. He says in Romans something that is the template for the discussion we're having. He says to the Romans, he says, But everything that I'm writing to you guys, I admit I have not obtained it. For the things that I want to do are the things I don't do. The good that I desire to do are the things I don't do. And the things that I don't want to do are the things I end up doing. Doing, yes. Oh, wretch man that I am who will free me from this body of death.

That was the intro of one of the songs.

Yeah. On the.

Maverick City album.

Yes. Yeah, well, yeah. I've done it many times. I've done it many times. I've talked about it. It's because I think that... See, the paradox of Christianity is I am a mess and a miracle at the same time.

Yes, me too.

That is the paradox of Christianity. We all are, yes. I am a mess and a miracle at the same time. And so that is why I am so irritated with the perfect bow wrapped on the package of what it looks like to be like Jesus. Because the template and the book that we use and this canon of scripture that gives us the outline of how we desire to live are written by murderers, liars, adulterists, killers, cheetahs. Bad parents.

-thieves like they-.

-thieves and polygamous, and all of these things that we call them our heroes. But they were messes and miracles at the same time. But we don't give that level of patience and grace to each other while we quote them. I don't understand it. It is the most, and that's why I believe you see one of the greatest exoduses out of Christianity that we have seen in the 21st century. We have so many people leaving Christianity because people can't take that.

No more. They can't.

It's because, see, when you go to the club, you know what you getting. When you go to the woo woo woo, you know what you getting. Youwhen you smoke this, you know, well, you hope you know what you're getting. When you smoke this, you know what you're hoping you're getting. When you drink this, it's like there is no ambiguity.

To.

The things outside of these religious dogmatic structures. I'm saying to you that as a Christian, that is married, that is a father, that stands in front of people, there are things about me that are not yet like Jesus. And there's a lot about me. One of my mentors said, he gave me a quote. Well, he said something to me that I made a quote in one of my phones, a Screamsaver. He said, Kirk, you are a man, a sinner, a saint, and a star. Then he said, The odds are against you.

You know what I'm saying? It's like, That's real talk. Now, I don't see myself as a star. That's what he said. But I understand the content. He was talking about just a public feeling. Absolutely. But then he concluded by saying, But if God before you. But the thing is, every day I am a man, a sinner, a saint, and a public figure or something, whatever, and I live in those realities every day. The things that I would do good are the things I don't always do, and the things I don't do and the things I don't do, the things I shouldn't do, the.

Things I do.

Oh, Wretch man that I am.

I'm just blown away right now. Seriously. Thank you so much.

Thank you for having me and your beautiful home. And congratulations to all of your great success. And it just makes me proud. Even from a distance, I'm just proud. There are others that know you in more intimate, closer ways. But just on the outside, it's like, Is it beautiful?

Thank.

You so much. This is so dope. I'm so proud of you. And you're so consistent with everybody you meet. Everybody you meet, you're the same.

You are, too, though. I feel like every time I've met you in different moments, you've been from meeting you at the studio, seeing you on the red carpets, meeting you back stage at Maverick City concert to now you are the same person and you are unforgettable. Literally, when you say, I'm too insecure to be forgotten. Every moment I was like, Man, it was amazing. And it always sticks with me. I just want you to know that you are unforgettable. Seriously. And I hope that you can just come to an understanding that you are enough and that you can let that insecurity go because you really are a light. You are a star. In our eyes, you really are. And I want you to know that and walk in that confidently.

But I want you to know, if I don't, I'm okay. Because my weakness, God uses for other strengths.

Yeah, I'm a witness.

So I'm okay. I really am. And I know that sounds like it's trying to be otherworld or it's super surreal. I'm really coming to a place. What's cool about getting older is you get to know places where you really don't care. Oh, my gosh.

I love it.

It's wonderful. It is. It's wonderful. Wonderful. I'm okay because I understand how the lips lead to other people's race.

And I'm good. That is so good. At the close of our show, we do what is called Positive Outcomes, where our listeners write into us and we give them advice. Okay. You down? I'm down. All right, let's do it. Let's get it. This one says, Hi, Crystal. I'm 50 years old, and for the past 18 years, I've been in a relationship with a married man. I know... I know that is not okay.

How many years?

18 years.

She's been, really?

Yeah, with a married man. I know this is not okay to be with a married man, but I'm 50. I'm more afraid that I would never meet someone and I don't want to be alone. I have a 16-year-old daughter. We have a 16-year-old daughter together, and she does not know that her father has a whole other family. I have gotten to the point where I can no longer keep lying to my daughter and want to tell her the truth, but her father does not want her to know. I don't want her to find out from another source down the line, but I don't want her to judge me either. What should I do?

For the sake of the child. How old is her daughter?

Sixteen. So she's probably starting to have... It seems like she knows her father. She just doesn't know that she has another family.

Got you. Okay. So she knows that this guy's her dad.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, but she does not know that her father has a whole other family.

Got you. But she knows of him. Does he spend time with her?

I don't know. Okay. Yeah. It's a lot of unknown here.

I would recommend that her and her daughter find a beautiful therapist. Because whatever the outcome is of the woman and the relationship, it doesn't change the fact that the daughter is here. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? The daughter is alive and here. So it's really now about the daughter and the wellbeing of the daughter. The unfortunate events of how the child got here doesn't take one for the fact that the child is here. And so now it's all about what the best interest is for the child. I would find a therapist who can be able to make sure that the young lady is the least damaged, because it's going to be damaged. She's a casualty of this experience. But I would really try to find a therapist. It's because the two of them have a child together now. Their experience is now secondary to that baby. There's going to be repercussions. There's going to be fallout, there's going to be all of those realities. But I would recommend them to be able to get to a loving professional, not a deacon at the church- Hello. Who do counseling in between. A real professional? Yeah, a real professional.

Somebody's got a couple of pieces of paper behind their name. I'm not saying that that makes them perfect, but there is a discipline that comes from the rigorous process of getting to that place. That's what I would humbly advise. I'm not a professional, but I know that children matter.

I agree with you 1,000 %. I can speak because I'm sure you know families that... I know a lot of people my age have grandparents who grandaddy may have stepped out and had a whole other child on the other side of town. And you don't find out about it until you're grown up. Like, Oh, I got a brother that's 20 what?

Until that funeral.

Right. Yes. Everything comes out of the funeral. But the child is the one that has to suffer not knowing that their friend in high school was actually their brother or.

Their sister. And they were dating.

That's the worst. You felt like, Wait a minute. We're related. And ain't nobody told me. So yes, I would definitely be honest with her. Child comes first.

Yes. Your child comes first.

Yes, for sure. Great advice. Okay, so the next thing we do is what I'm going through and what I'm growing through. That's cute. What I'm going through, what I'm growing through. For me, in this season, I am going through... And it's been like this. I'm such a control freak. I tell everybody this. I like to know the variables. I don't like anything unknown. I like to control it. You do? Yes. And for me, it is trust and guide. And even with the strike, we just finished the strike and we're going back to work. But even in that, I was tested so much. I know you were. Oh, my goodness.

I know your light bill was tested.

It sure was.

I know your car, though, was tested. Are you kidding me?

Please. Listen, the mortgage, everything.

Listen. I was like- Come on, let's keep it at buck. Okay, sitting around when you're doing what we do is like, I'm going to have the next three years saved up. Right.

For when the.

Strike happened. Not when you're an entrepreneur because a lot of what we do, we eat what we kill. We do.

So true. But in this time, it's really taught me that God had because literally, I was praying to God. And I said, God, it was so funny because I was filming last week, I was filming the podcast, and I went downstairs to get me an energy drink. And it was the last day of filming. And literally, the Holy Spirit hit me. I hit that last step down there and I said, Oh. And literally said, The strike is going to be over. And I went to Tyler's premiere and everyone's like, Oh, yeah. The strike is going to be over. I get it like tomorrow. I said, Nah, today. No, she said, January. I said, Nah, today. And literally within two hours, everybody's phones started going off. She was like, You said it. I was like, No. I felt it. The spirit really hit me because I've been like, Lord, come on now. I need you to move swiftly on this thing. I'm like, Danora, we got all these brand partnerships that she gets for me. I'm like, So when that money come in? I did this a month ago. It's 30 days, net 30. Come on.

Listen, man, like I tell you, I have struggled with these tours. I told Timmy because Tammy want to do a new house. Well, we were blessed to get a new house. Congratulations. I always make a joke to everybody around me. I'm like, All right, you all going to see me at one of these little clubs. I'm going to be stripping. I'm going to be at one of these little gospel... I'm going to be stripping gospel music. I'm going to stripping gospel music.

You think that this gossiping has gone too far. You think.

We're going to too far. You ain't see nothing yet. But guess what my stripping name is. You're in my stripping name. You're ready. I'm ready. I'm not ready. What's the tripping in? It's... Little Cheaks. I'm dead. Welcome to.

The stage. Welcome to the stage. Lc. Lc. Lc. You know cheeks. I'm just trying to think. Welcome to the stage.

Lc. -logit. -lc. That's a good laugh.

That was a ain't a laugh. That's the end of that. Boy, you laugh and.

Be saying the word when you laugh. You play too much. It never happened. You don't have to worry. It never happened. Don't worry. But if times got hard. I'm going to take him up because the Bible says a man that don't take care of his family is worse than Infidel. So I will be somewhere. You think that's a survey. Right. Little cheeks. Little cheeks. Tammie got heat. Oh, my goodness. Tammie got to eat. Tammie got to eat. That's right.

You kids got to eat little cheeks. I love it. All right, tuck on. Is there anything.

That you're going through and growing through in this season of your life? That is so fun.

How she just tried to move past that. I love that.

Let me drink real quick. Hold on. Oh, man. Anything I'm going through or growing through, I think, has been up for public display over the last six months. And it is a real mountain that I'm having to climb. It's what I'm going through, and it is yet to be seen what the growing looks like. I'm okay with that. Yes, I love that you're okay with that.

I'm okay.

With that. Because again, this.

Is not a movie.

This is not a movie. This is not a Christian TBN.

Movie where everybody.

Got to be on the other side shouting and dancing. This is real life. Yes. Wow. And in real life, Christians die. Christians are murdered. Christians are hopeless. Christians get hungry. There are Christians in China right now that are having church underground because they'll be killed. They'll be killed and sent us to prison. That's real life. That ain't pretty. That ain't a bow. It's not a bow. It's not a bow. So I'm okay.

I'm okay.

I love that. I love that. And we end the show with.

Keep it blank, sweetie. How would you feel in the blank? Keep it blank, sweetie. I would say, keep it close. I like that. Keep it close.

Keep him close. Keep your heart close. Yes. Keep your experiences close. Keep your friends close.

Keep yourself close.

Wow. I love that.

That's hard to talk.

Okay, I.

Would say we.

Touch on so many good things. For this one, I think I would say keep it real, sweetie.

Keep it real. Keep it real. Yeah. That's what I did today. You did, honey. You kept it all the way 1,000 with the people, and we appreciate it. Thank you so much. I appreciate you. Thank you. Honor to be here. No, the honor is all mine, seriously. It's your boy, Kirk, aka. L-c. Little teeth. Wrap it up.

Guys, thank you so much for tuning to this episode of Keep It Positive, sweetie. If you want to.

Write into our Positive Outcomes.

Listener letter, you can write into keepitpositivesweetie@gmail.

Com. That's sweetie with an I-E. You can follow Kips.

On all platforms.

At keepitpositivesweetie.

You can follow me on all platforms @lovecrystalrenae, and that's L-U-V. Kirk, tell the people they can find you. Let us know what you have going on so we can support because we want to get behind you. Literally. You want to get behind me. What's up, you all? Man, thank you all for supporting the new album, Father's Day.

The documentary Father's Day. Thank you for coming to the tour. Very, very grateful for keeping me in your prayers. Life is lifing, but God is good. And so you can follow me on Instagram. You can follow me on Facebook. Follow me on My Space, Black Planet. I remember those. Oh, those are not active no more. I think My Space might still be, or is it all the way gone? I'm still on the page.

I'm sorry. You might be the only one.

Okay, well, maybe that's why I ain't got a lot of followers. Thank you so much. Thank you. Oh, man, this.

Is good. This is so good. We did it. Lord, thank you so much for this day. Thank you for giving Kirk the time to be with us today. We know it's going to bless so many people. God, I do not take this platform lightly. I thank you for giving me this opportunity to spread light and positivity, bless everyone in this room and hear their prayers. Oh, God. In Jesus name, I pray. Amen. Amen.