I collected coins as a kid, and I still have the collection, and I think it's more valuable than it actually is. And my son doesn't seem that interested in it.

Yeah. Your son is like eleven somewhere in there, right?

Yeah, he's eleven.

I've got an eleven year old son as well.

Is eleven year oldest.

No. So I have 15, 1311 and nine four.

Wow. Yeah.

You know, you're from Manhattan. I'm from.

It's true. It's true. Yeah. And Manhattan, too, is a lot. Yeah.

My trip that I do once a year to take my friends away. It should not be the budget for your bike across America matter.

He comes running in front of the camera phone and drops his pants. Pants.

Okay. Mind the experts. This is a big topic and a tricky one. The story from the book that leads into this is the invention of sactional. So look, we're working in the back of this factory. We're making sacks. We have our first store. I'm working there, open to close. And every day, besides buying love sacks, people are asking about this couch. We have a couch in the corner to look. Pretty big screen tv over here. And people are like, well, how much is that couch? I'm like, we don't sell the couch. We sell these giant knot beanbags. Yeah, but I really like this couch. Will you sell it to me? We made the mistake of selling it one time. We could barely deliver it to the guy. We scratched it on the door trying to get it out of the store. When we got it there, the guy wants the matching armchair. And otoman, we're like, after hearing this, like, every day, how could we possibly get into the couch business? They're too big. They're too hard to stock, they're too hard to inventory, all the colors, all the fabrics. So we start chopping couches up.

Like, we shrink sacks down to one eighthaith the original size. It allows us to stock them in the back room, keep the COVID separate. It's a really great business model. Could we do that for couches?

Maybe?

And through our efforts, we invent sactionals just by any number of seats, by any number of sides. The side work says the back or the arm. I'm sitting in sactionals right this second. It's a fantastic invention, but it took us months and months and months to prototype and get these plywood, two x four samples built in the garage. But we couldn't do certain things because we didn't have the equipment. Like, put the sinuous springs across the top, make them really comfortable. To sit on, et cetera. We needed a furniture manufacturer to help we take our garage prototypes and our drawings. We had already applied for some patents and take these to a totally different furniture maker down the road. We'd used this guy for sacks before, and we left him with our samples. We left him with our drawings, and we paid him $1,000 to prototype these things for us properly using his equipment. And he says, yeah, come back in a couple of weeks. I'll show it to you. Sure enough, get back there. And now he shows us this sample that is almost like the one we had just seen. I couldn't even believe my auntie did the same thing.

We're like, where's the one we gave you? He's like, oh, no, that'll never work. I've been making furniture for, like, 40 years. Like, the angles are all wrong. It'll be rickety. It won't hold together. But these little sectionals will sell great in your stores. And they were just like every other sectional you've ever seen in your life. And I felt like I was taking crazy pills. Are these guys talking to each other? And I learned a hard lesson that day that their expertise blinded them to the possibility that there might be a whole new way to make a sectional sofa. And, yeah, it wasn't perfect. And, yeah, there were bugs to be worked out. We worked those out over a number of years, but we finally had to just do it ourselves because, frankly, me and Dave were dumb enough, not being experts in the field, to say, why not? Why can't it be done this way? And sactionals were born.

Let me save you.

I'm your host for the let me save you 25 year podcast. Sean D. Nelson, founder and CEO of Lovesack. With me today is a man who is no stranger to the camera. He lived his life on tv for decades and is currently the host of on patrol on reals, Dan Abrams, live on news Nation. He's been covering legal cases in the media forever, dating back to the OJ Simpson trials as the chief legal correspondent for ABC News, and has, of course, been covering the indictment of former President Trump. Dan has written numerous New York Times bestselling books. What about overlooked legal cases? He's owned restaurants and vineyards, has two kids, and I think, like, 13 jobs one way or another, but somehow has made time to come on here to unpack this one with us today. Mr. Dan Abrams.

Sean, it's great to be with you.

Thanks, man. Thanks for joining my little podcast. It's good to chat. Good to meet you. Really honored. All right. This week's Shaunism is kind of a double entendre, right? A concept I learned the hard way back in 2005 when we invented sactionals. Mind the experts. The name of this chapter out of my book, which comes out this winter. I continue to have experiences daily that remind me of this little Shaunism to live by. So we're going to unpack it with Dan. So I'd love to hear from you, Dan, just your overall take on mind the experts. You've read this chapter in my book. You kind of understand where I'm coming from. We'll start at a high level. We'll get into some detail.

So, look, I think that in what I do in media, you're seeing the experts are in constant demand. Right. It's like the people who are the legal experts, who are the medical experts, who have specific knowledge about a particular area are the ones who kind of endure in the business. Because you're not just a generalist. Right. If you're the political person, if you're the Republican, if you're the Democrat, there's got to be in media these days because it's so fractured. There's an increasing demand for people who have a particular level of expertise. And for me, it's been the legal, and that has definitely helped me throughout my career in distinguishing myself is that I have a legal background, and that's the prism through which even I look at politics, I look at media, people always say to me, oh, you're analyzing that like a lawyer? And the answer is, I don't even realize it, but it's true. And so I think that it's definitely been a huge advantage for me. And as you mentioned, this is why I pursued books in this arena, et cetera. And one of the things I think that people in my industry and beyond sort of want to prove always is they can do something outside of their expertise.

Right?

Yeah.

The medical person wants to show that they can be a health expert, or the legal person wants to show they can be a political expert or whatever it is. And I think that there is a need to some degree for the experts to always come back to your roots, right? Yes. You can use it as a springboard to other things, but you always got to recognize kind of what that expertise was that got you there.

Yeah. I mean, there's nothing wrong with focus. So first of all, let's call it the good side of mind, the experts.

Right.

It's like, give expertise, it's due. And that's what I mean by the phrase, now, in a minute, we'll get into the dark side of mind the experts. I think of it like, mind the gap off the train. Right. Like, experts can also cause all kinds of problems. And I have some experience with that. We'll get into that. But I like what you said because there's this chapter in my book called be an insatiable learner. This idea, another shawnism of mine, and I explicitly, like, go deep in something. In your case, you're a Columbia trained attorney, right? You've got this legal expertise, and look at the career it's given you on tv. I don't even know when you connected those dots, but that's pretty like, you didn't have to be an attorney to benefit from your deep legal knowledge. And I think that that's underestimated these days because I think people are, like, experts on everything now, because you can just watch videos on YouTube and think you know everything about everything. But I think there's value in going deep in at least one thing.

Yeah. For that's, you know, look what I try to do on legal. You know, for me, look, the legal stuff is complicated, right. There are a lot of people who try and make it seem really simple. They try to make it seem like, well, it's obvious that XYZ. And the truth is, the legal realities are often more nuanced. And unfortunately, in the polarized media and political environment that we're currently in, a lot of the time, people don't want to hear the nuance. They don't want to hear how things typically work. They want things that will reinforce their own point of view. They want to use the law as a political cudgel. And that's very frustrating. It's only been in the last five years that when I do legal analysis, I'm constantly accused by both sides of being politicized. Oh, well, he's saying that because he's a trumperer. He's saying that because he's a left wing nut. The answer is, I know you don't want to hear this, but this is the legal reality, and it can be very frustrating in the current environment that we live in.

Yeah. Look, I think, let's get into that for a second, because with your expertise, first of all, just to build on what you said, I think that the medium itself, especially tv and traditional media, does not allow for a ton of nuance. You're on a schedule. I mean, who knows it better than you? You got someone in your ear. You've got so many minutes to talk about this topic or whatever. That's why I've really enjoyed the podcast media myself as a listener is because you can get onto some of these things, they'll go on for two, 3 hours and really hear someone unpack something. Now, whether you agree with them or not, that's not the point. The point is you finally get the air, the oxygen for some of these really fantastic experts to go deep on whatever it is they're talking about, whether it's a legal case, an indictment, whether it's, who knows, science, vaccines, all these controversial topics. You can really understand deeper when someone has a chance to really unpack it, because often on these, everyone's looking for sound bites, everyone's looking for TikTok videos, Instagram clips. And so I've really enjoyed that.

And you've been on the inside of that. So I think what I'm fascinated to ask you is this idea of minding the experts, right? It's a two sided coin on the one hand, and we'll get into this when we talk about your entrepreneurial endeavors. We need experts to do great work. Like my company is full of them. I'm like the dumbest guy in the room. My company is approaching a billion in sales, right, in the next couple of years, whatever. And it's run by people that are all smarter than me. I mean that really sincerely, and I'm the CEO and I've learned to embrace experts. On the other hand, experts really can change opinions, can lead people to believe truth, fiction, what have you. Being on the inside of media where now there's so much distrust, I think generally in political leaders, in even media itself, I don't know. What's your thought on the state of affairs when it comes to this?

So I think that the experts are being attacked now in the media. And again, this goes back to our fractured media, is that I think that rather than respecting the fact that people have devoted their careers to studying a particular area, the way in the media space to get attention is to attack the experts, right? To say, oh, they're all frauds, oh, they're all beholden to some particular point of view, whatever it may be. And I think it's really dangerous. I think it's really dangerous because the experts, the real ones, devote their lives to a particular area and to studying, learning about teaching the rest of us about it. And when the answer is, oh, they're all just making it up, or they're all just politicized or whatever it is, it's a dangerous world for us to be in. So I think that I hope that we continue to give people who have smart people, good people, who are good at it, who've devoted their lives to a particular expertise, the credit that they deserve, the respect, as opposed to, again, in my world, in the media space, where it's just easy to just sort of knock them down with a line or two.

And I think that's really unfortunate.

Yeah. So as a participant, as a listener, as a wanderer on the earth, a citizen, whatever, is there a good way to filter? Is there a way to know when you're listening to, in fact, some kind of biased or some kind of agenda, that when there is an agenda at play versus true expertise, just trying to be productive and useful in their realm, is it just instinct? Is it your spidey sense is hit? How does one navigate?

You got to do a little homework. I mean, I have people who call into my radio show who say to me, and my show is very analysis and opinion based, but it's all based in fact. And again, it's a politically moderate position. And I have people who will call in and they'll say, you know, dan, I disagree with you on so many things, but I went and looked up a lot of the stuff that you said about this fact and this fact, and you were right. And so that's the reason I keep listening to you. Even though I don't agree with your takes, I know that you're not getting the facts wrong. And so I guess it's an anecdotal way of saying that the way to do it is to do a little homework, right. Go in and see if. Don't just look in. I always like to say, you want to see if a fact is true, go look up the thing and put in fact check or something like that. The thought. And there are credible organizations that have examined facts around controversial issues, et cetera. And I think that it's important to also look to the majority of the experts, right.

People like to, again, these days in media, try to be the iconic class, right? And say, oh, all the experts are telling you that blank is happening. Don't believe them. Don't believe them because they're all this and this and that. You better have a pretty darn good argument for why the vast majority of the expert, you want to talk about one person, okay? One guy. Oh, yeah. He's beholden to the pharmaceutical company. Okay. But the majority of the experts have all agreed after x number of studies and to say, oh, well, I want to be the iconoclast okay, I get it again, that's a way to get followers. It's a way to be popular on the Internet is to shoot down the experts, to be the one who says be the controversy. Yes, of course. But the truth is that the majority of the experts aren't doing it in almost every case for any reason other than that they're right. And I get it that that's frustrating to those who either don't want to believe it or want to try to develop a following by being the person who's going to take on the experts.

Yeah, look, it's tricky. I appreciate the advice. I mean, the point of this podcast, right, let me save you 25 years is trying to make things easier. Learn from my mistakes, your mistakes, our mistakes. We're all participants in the media landscape, and you're on the inside, but you're also another participant in the sense like you're watching the news too, so to speak. You're experiencing your life on earth. You're raising kids.

Do you listen to many podcasts? As you may have noticed, this podcast has zero advertisers. I created it as a way to give back a little bit just to share some of the hardearned lessons I paid for the hard way in hopes that others may find them useful. As such, all I ask is that you please consider taking 30 seconds to find your way to the show inside your app or wherever you listen or watch this and give it a star rating. Please share it out to a friend really quick or whoever you've thought of while listening today. That would be awesome. My book by the same name, let me save you 25 years, is loaded with similar lessons. Definitely check it out on Amazon or lovesack.com or wherever books are sold. All net proceeds from that book are donated to the FBLA. Future Business leaders of America, a long standing nonprofit supporting would be young entrepreneurs. I don't make a dime from any of this, so please subscribe to the pod and give it a star rating and maybe a review. It really means a lot to me personally because I'm on a mission to get it out there.

Now, back to the pod.

You're on the inside, but you're also another participant in the sense, like you're watching the news too, so to speak. You're experiencing your life on earth. You're raising kids. So I'm curious, shifting gears a little, how have you thought about, or needed to think about minding the experts in your own life? Whether you want to talk about your family or whether you want to talk about your businesses, outside of being a media know, like, when you hear this concept, mind the experts. Now, how does Dan Abrams mind the expert or not?

What do you mean know?

You got to make decisions regarding your children's health. You got to make decisions regarding your career. You got to make decisions regarding your businesses. Where have you seen success minding the experts, like, really heeding them or being leery of them? That's the funny thing about this phrase. I mean it to be a two sided coin. I believe in both. I believe that experts have their place, and we need to heed them and let them guide us. I also believe there are times where we must, ourselves have intuition to mind the experts. Like we mind the gap. Like, you better be careful, because I share a story in my book where that's the case. But go ahead.

No, I mean, look, I think that, again, this goes back to the point I'm making, which is that I think you want to look to not necessarily a single expert. Right. I'll give you an example. My son had an injury on his tooth. He'd fallen in a park. And we went to a dentist, well respected dentist in Manhattan, who said that she thought that he should go under and have the tooth pulled. And she didn't seem entirely certain. She was like, you know, it's kind of close, but that's what I would do. She said, I would definitely. And to me, the idea of putting my son under. Right. Was something that I wasn't thrilled about. The idea and the idea of him having to go under was something where I thought, wow, this better be something where you really need it. So we went and got another opinion, and a different dentist said, kind of a close call, but I wouldn't put him under. And my point being that I'm not a dental expert. I don't know what my son should or shouldn't get. But it goes back to your point. I was trusting our instincts to say, even though that was our dentist, the first person was our dentist, she was the one we'd been going to.

It just didn't feel like it was necessary. It felt like we should take a little more time to think about it. We should talk to someone else. And so I think that was a good example of making sure that a single person, and this is my point, I'm all for not believing a single person for a particular reason, but if I went to ten dentists and nine of them told me one thing, I'd probably rely on that. Now, this goes back to a separate point about knowing your kids there are certain things about your kids that even if nine experts said this and this and that, and you say, I know my kid, maybe I'd be willing to entertain the idea that you go with the 10th. But parenting and expertise is a whole chapter about how you go about dealing with making choices and relying on people who are experts in everything from medicine to sports.

No, this is perfect, because right there in that example, you've gone the full gamut of articulating, hearing an expert, using your intuition. So you're a trained attorney. You're logical, you're fact based. You're using the phrase I felt, we felt. Now you're operating on feeling. You're heeding a different expert, and then you give the example to build on your own example of, well, hey, if there were nine dentists, I'd go with the nine. But there's a caveat. I know my kid. I mean, this shows the complexity of decision making ultimately in the real world, and the complexity of navigating expertise, facts, opinions, your own intuition, et cetera. I don't know that there's any kind of answer, which is frustrating for a podcast called let me save you 25 years, other than I am a big believer in intuition, and I don't mean it in, like, a superstitious way, I hope. I believe one way or another. I mean, we could get into the science of that. We could get some experts to comment on that. But I do believe, particularly as a parent, as a business leader, in all kinds of realms in life, it's crazy, if you're willing to get in touch with it and develop it as a skill, how powerful your intuition can be.

Yeah. And look, that is a separate topic, but I believe when it comes to your kids, that there's a different kind of connection, that parents have a kind of intuition thing. But then again, I have friends who long believe that, for example, their kids shouldn't get vaccines because they had an intuition about it. I think they were wrong. I think that I have very good friends who the two parents disagreed. One parent was an antivaxxer. The other one thought she was crazy. And I think she's crazy, but she would say she had an intuition. I think it can be an excuse at times. I do think we need to rely on studies. We need to rely on facts. We need to rely on expertise. We can't just go on intuition, but it's got to be sprinkled in there, sprinkled in with the fact.

It's tricky.

Yeah.

I don't think there's a right answer. Sadly, I think in the end, we have to make decisions. I mean, that's how I look at business. A business is nothing more than the amalgamation of decisions that you make, and some will be right and some will be wrong and only history will tell. Right. But you still have to be bold enough to not be paralyzed and make those decisions, some by instinct and intuition, some by letting the experts who you've brought on maybe to run realms of your business or run the whole business to do their thing as an expert. So let's shift gears to that real quick. You're an entrepreneur. You've owned businesses. You own businesses. How do you think about experts involved with you in business? And if you can bridge it, do you ever find the need, the opportunity, the impetus to trump that expertise, whether they work with you, for you, or even just outside? How do you navigate expertise in that realm?

So I rely a lot on people who are experts in everything from finance to YouTube in my businesses, and I do rely on them a lot. Do I occasionally overrule them? It has to be big picture, right? It's not going to be on the small stuff.

Why?

Because I think that giving people autonomy in what they do and feeling like they own it is very important. I think that if you start micromanaging people who are senior level folks who you've hired to take on a big role at your company, a, they're not going to enjoy their job, and that's going to make them less productive, more likely to leave, et cetera. I want people to feel like my business is their business. And part of the way to do that is to give them the autonomy to make the decisions. And so just about everyone who works for me in senior roles will tell you, Dan lets us do our thing. Now, are there big picture business decisions that I've made that some of my key leaders have disagreed with? Yes. But I hear them out. I let them make their case, and I make sure to explain to them why I am not accepting their advice on this so at least they can say, all right, I disagreed with him, but he's not nuts. He had a very clear reason why he thinks this. I don't agree with him, et cetera. And I think that kind of communication is very important.

I think that's a master class level summary on at least a couple of aspects of leadership. One of the things I mentioned in the book, let me save you 25 years, is I've had to learn the hard way over a very long time that just because someone has a different idea than mine, just because I would do it differently. And I think I'm pretty smart or I think I'm pretty good at this, especially in certain realms. Like, I have some expertise myself. And just because I would do it differently than they would doesn't mean that their path is not equally good. It's different than mine. It's a different color. It's a different outcome. It's a different approach. But maybe they're equally good. And I could muck it up by pushing for my way because it's like my brand or my name on it or whatever it may be, but if I do that too much, they're gone. I mean, there's just no satisfaction in their job. Right?

Totally.

And I've learned that it doesn't matter. Like, yeah, it would have been different if I had pushed my way, but that doesn't make it better, necessarily. There are times where it does.

Maybe.

And to your point, you got to develop the intuition to know when to dig in and stubbornly push for your way. But in my opinion, and I think you just said it yourself, those moments should come rarely. Otherwise, why have experts at all, right? You should just have minions that do what you ask. And I think that's a leadership style.

I totally agree. And I think particularly when you start your own business. I mean, I started this business, law and crime, which is now a cable network, and it's a production company and it's a website. I started it with five people. Right. And I was obviously super involved in every single decision as the company grows. And now there are 120 employees or so who work at the company. And you have to sort of allow people to make the decisions. I mean, a, because of the number of things I do, I don't have the time to do it. But putting that aside, they've helped the company grow. I mean, it's not just me that, oh, Dan Abrams grew. Yeah. Part of that is true. And part of that know Rachel Stockman and Andrew Icebrock and all the other people who helped me grow the business, too.

Let me say it craftly, Dan, because I've used this before myself. They're making you rich, and you can muck it up. I don't mean you necessarily, I'm saying broadly, right. Like these people that work with you, and not just you, but them, too, they're growing wealth, they're growing opportunity, they're growing abundance for everyone involved. And you can mess it up because you need to have your way, or you can let the experts do their thing, and it may be different. And I've seen it so many times. It's crazy how ego can just destroy good outcomes because someone had to have it their way. And look, I think there's a moment for that, too, but it's tricky.

No, but ego is a real problem, I think, for a lot of business leaders, and I've thought a lot about this question of like, is it more of a problem for people who come into an existing business and are hired as like, CEO or whatever, or is it more of an issue for people who start their own business? I happen to have a lot more respect for people who start their own business and build it out and then run it successfully. Right. Because it requires all different levels of achievement. Right? It's starting from scratch, it's learning how to build it. And then if you can also run it successfully as a large company, you've now achieved all the goals in a company, as opposed to someone who just comes in. And by the way, being a CEO of a major company is a real value to a company. I'm in no way minimizing it. There's a reason these people make the money that they do, because they do matter. But I thought a lot about this question of because ego is a huge problem for bad ceos, in my view. And is it more of a problem in people who've started a company and take it so personally, or someone who disagrees with them?

Or is it people who think, who've never actually started a company and think that they're the end all? And I don't know. I don't know which one is potentially worse.

No, I mean, the truth is, you see it, though, at every level. And with leadership, with ceos, what have you, but also just with any fiefdom, it could be a vp, it could be just someone who owns a section of anything. Ego plays such a huge role. And it's crazy how many things get blown up, like whole projects, whole careers over ego. In the end, it all comes down to someone just had to dig in and have it their way or what have you. And it's crazy because people sometimes will make decisions that will decimate their own wealth or opportunities for wealth. And I don't just mean wealth, it's just easy to think of it that way. Right? And that's something I have to remind myself of. These people are making me successful. Why get in their way? Because I need to have it my way. So I do put my foot down occasionally and push for something my way, but I try and make it super rare anyway, that's a really interesting observation. And I know from your career, like as you said earlier, you've had success with experts in your businesses succeeding, and you've seen it when they've failed.

Any wisdom to pass on any way to save someone a chunk of 25 years in that realm.

So if you're going to start businesses, make sure that the people you hire are into what you're doing. Meaning that they're not just looking for a job, that they don't just want to be. HR is a great example, right? You could be an HR manager at any company, but you're going to have a much better HR director if that HR director really is interested in what you do, in what you sell, in what you make, et cetera. If they have a personal connection to it. And I think that that applies to every level of the company, even if it's not directly in the sales or manufacturing or whatever it is, the more people you have. Like again, I'll use law and crime again as an example. Almost everyone who works at law and crime in every position is a true crime junkie. They love this stuff. No matter what role they play at the company, there is some level of true appreciation and pride in the fact that they work at that company.

Love it. So work with people that are into it. That's a powerful idea, and it seems obvious, but there are lots of people just looking for a job and there's nothing wrong with them. But if you're making the decisions, you're in the power to filter through, and it's worth the wait. I can attest to that. One wrong hire man or one person who's a bad cultural fit, one person who has a bad. Just something in their core that doesn't fit well can muck up a lot.

Can cost you millions, by the way. That's definitely true. I've had one or two people in previous businesses where they were unhappy for different reasons. And boy, that can poison, particularly a small business, can really poison a small business. And if I could do it again, I would have had the person out earlier or gone without.

Don't make the hire, by the way.

It doesn't always need to be firing them either. It can also be saying to them, look, I know you're not happy. I know you're not. It's clear you're not happy. Let's figure out a way for you to find something else where you can go work somewhere else, and that way you've got some time. No one's pushing you out the door. Tomorrow. Let's just figure that out. There's a way to end these things without it being like, oh, so I fired them. No, there can be people who are good people who actually could be good at something else who are just in the wrong position.

Yeah. No, that's a fantastic piece of wisdom. Thank you. So, I have to ask, just given your exposure to all this stuff, what's one of the wildest legal dramas you've witnessed? Reviewed over the know from Amber, heard defecating on know, purveying themselves on the stand, handling themselves, anything that just stands. Like, if I were to ask, what's the. What's one of the craziest things you ever witnessed? Anything come to mind?

Yeah. I mean, look, I'll tell you something. That's one of the most impactful, okay. And it's not wild in the sort of, like, fun way. I covered a trial of a woman accused of killing her husband, who was deaf, and as a result, she had to use her hands to communicate. And when she got cuffed after she got convicted, it suddenly hit me about how her whole form of communication was now stifled. And it was just this very impactful moment where we hadn't seen throughout the trial that happen, and it was just a sort of reminder of the unfortunate situation that people can be in based on a sort of disability. But let me try and think of something that's maybe a little more uplifting than that.

No. That's interesting, though. For her, that weren't just handcuffs. That was a muzzle. That's crazy.

Yeah. But in terms of sort of wild.

Moments, you're on a live cop show now as well.

Yeah. Look, I'll tell you, on that show, the wildest thing that we ever saw was there was a pursuit of a vehicle. The guy driving the car, the car flips. The guy gets out of the car, and you see him grab the hair. Turns out of a two year old who was in the car with him, and he starts using the two year old as a way to keep the cop from cuffing him.

Wow.

And he starts fighting with the cop with a two year old in his hand.

Oh, my gosh.

And so eventually, he puts down the girl, and the cop is, like, having to wrestle this guy down to the ground. It was so intense watching this.

Wait, you're there? You're watching this happen?

I'm watching it live. I mean, I'm not on the scene, but I'm watching it happen live.

Yeah.

And, of course, the only thing you're thinking about is the girl, right? You're thinking about the little girl, and one of the producers actually, from the show actually went and took the girl, but it was so intense.

Yeah. That's amazing. Well, who knows what you're going to see this weekend? It's got to keep your life entertaining.

Well, it's an interesting look. The cool thing about on patrol live is that it's real policing, meaning some of it is just the ordinary stuff. Cops pulling over a car, see what happens, cops going on, an accident. And then there's sometimes a major pursuit of a vehicle, high octane, et cetera, because that's kind of what cops deal with. They deal, know a lot of more mundane stuff. And then occasionally there is that high octane moment.

Wow. All right, Dan. Well, if you could give yourself one piece of advice, let's say 2030 years ago to someone just starting out, that could save them 25 years or, young Dan, save you a chunk of 25 years. What's that? One piece of advice you might contemplate giving young Dan Abrams, know who you.

Are and make sure you are catering your future around that. Meaning that I could have become a lawyer. Yeah, right. And I had an offer to make a lot more money as a lawyer than I did to go into tv when I started in my career. And I was so unsure about whether I should take the jump because I can be risk averse. And I would say to me, I would say it to someone else, think about what kind of person you are and whether in 25 years from now, if you, that you're going to be happy. And if the answer is no, maybe use that to begin thinking about another angle. For example, if you're a lawyer and you want to work at a company, think about working with a company that you might want to go work at. Think about a way to evolve your career, but start thinking about it early, knowing who you are. Picture yourself in 25 years and ask yourself, is that what I want to do? And if the answer is no, it doesn't mean quit your job. It doesn't mean throw it away. It doesn't mean go on tour and become a rock star.

It means try to use what you're currently doing to get you to the place you might want to be to.

Get you in that direction. How cool is that? I've had a few trained lawyers on this show that are not lawyers like yourself, but have found a way to use it, that training, and you're a perfect example. I mean, you've got all these properties. And when I say that, I mean, like intellectual properties. Tv shows, businesses that have parlayed your training into something very different than being a lawyer. That's fantastic advice. Way to make the pivot without even necessarily, like you said, having to quit your job, so to speak. That's brilliant advice. I really appreciate all of it. Well, anything you want to plug, Dan, anything coming up in your life, anything you want to tell people about.

I got too many things to. It's.

Well, congratulations on all of your success.

Thank you.

You can follow Dan as I do on X or Instagram. Dan underscore Abrams on Instagram, Dan Abrams on X. He has endless content on YouTube where he will continue to inspire you to think differently about the law and think critically. It's a skill needed more than ever this day and age. We are so grateful, Dan, to get your insights today on minding the experts. And hopefully you can save yourself a chunk of 25 years. Perhaps if you do it. If you take advantage of Dan's advice, don't forget to like this podcast or video. Please subscribe to it and do share it out on social media to help others save a chunk off their 25 year march just because you're that kind of friend. Thank you to this expert among experts, personality among personalities, the Oman on patrol, the leader of legal commentators, Mr. Dan Abrams. This was amazing. Thank you very much.

My pleasure.

And to everyone listening, mind the experts. Sometimes like you. Mind the gap. Grateful to be with you.

Let me save you.

My trip. That I do once a year to take my friends away. Should not be the budget for your bike across America.

A lot of times the next thing is not always next. It's happening right now as well. When I won that million, I was 2 million in debt, barely hanging on.

The, all of a sudden, he comes running in front of the camera, drops his pants, drops his pants.

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