This.

Festive season. Have you been nice or naughty?

Why wouldn't I be nice? Reacher is back. They're coming after us. Good.

He's bigger. Badder.

I don't hit soft. And he.

Doesn't hit soft.

We're going to need more guns.

Reacher, the.

New season. Get to it.

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On March 16th, 2000, two sheriff's deputies were shot in Atlanta. A Muslim leader and former black power activist was convicted. But the evidence was shaky and the whole truth didn't come out during the trial. My name is Moses Secret. When I started investigating this case in my hometown, I uncovered a dark truth about America. From Tenderfoot TV, campside Media, and iHeart Podcasts, Radical is available now. Listen to the new podcast, Radical, for free on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

In the new Amy and TJ podcast, news anchors Amy Robach and TJ Homes explore everything from current events to pop culture in a way that's informative, entertaining, and authentically groundbreaking. Join them as they share their voices for the first time since making their own headlines.

This.

Is the first time that we actually get to say what happened and where we are today.

Listen to the Amy and TJ podcast on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is Let's Be Clear with Shannon Dordy. Hi, everyone. This is Shannon Dordy. And today I'm joined by a very special guest, my friend, Holly Marie-Combs. Hi, Holly.

Hi. How are you doing?

As usual, so full of energy. What some people don't know is that we knew each other before Charmed.

How did people not know that?

I don't know.

They weren't paying attention.

I know, but some people don't know.

They didn't watch T. M. Z. Very much. Correct. Wait, this was before T. M. Z.

It was. How did we meet?

Are you saying you don't remember? You just want.

Me to tell the story? I do. I'm quizzes you.

Oh, I didn't know there was going.

To be a test. There's always a test.

Well, this is a long string of events. My first husband, my first mistake was friends with Jeffrey Dean Morgan. Some of you may know his name. He was dating Laura Glenn Boyle at the time. Laura was actually the first friend I had in L. A. When I moved there to do picket fences. And the Laura knew Roxanne. Roxanne knew you. Charlie was in there in the middle somewhere. When I was no longer friends with Laura, then I became friends with Roxanne. Then I became friends with you, and then Roxanne. We became upset that we became friends.

What really the story is you met me and you were like, I don't need any other friend but Shannon.

That was the distinction.

That was it.

You're all like, It was the only choice.

I don't need any of these other people with her multiple personalities. She covers all of them. It's all good.

Then I became Charlie's daughter's godmother, and then I got fired because of the first husband. My first mistake, she didn't like that situation. Then you got hired as that godmother. It's all very twisted, if you think about it.

It is. It is really twisted. All right.

I was 19. Oh, God. That means...

That means I was 20.

No, that means I had a momentary lapse where I'm like, What am I, 39? No, no, 49. So that means that was 30 years ago. I just don't think there's enough time in the day to go through all of this.

That's a long, long, long time.

It's a long journey.

Right. We hung out. We did all of this stuff. When Charmed came around, I remember- We're.

Skipping a lot of stuff here, by the way.

I know. I'm going to get to Charmed real quick. We can always backtrack. All right. Well, yeah. I mean, okay, hold on. No, no. You're right. No, because you said first mistake a couple of times. I did. Which is really funny because I think we paralleled with mistakes. We did. Throughout our friendship. Yeah. You're on your third marriage, right?

I am.

Aren't you? But so far, so good. Well, no, I mean, my third is ending. Right. Okay, here's one of my favorite stories about Holly that I want to tell all of our listeners is that Holly would often stay at my house because...

Of my first mistake?

The first mistake was no boy, no. And she needed a little bit of safety and protection, and I supplied it along with my German Shepherd Elphie, who was like, shits and free trained and cray, cray and loved Holly. She kept people away from the property. Let's just put it like that. She had a couple of encounters with the first mistake that didn't go so well for him. Holly would walk around the house in overalls with a tool belt, and she would fix everything in the house that needed fixing. I distinctly recall looking at her and saying, It's so weird that there's not a lock on my bathroom door. What if I have a guy over and I need to use the restroom? They could just come in. That's not okay. And the next thing I knew, I heard hammering and there was a lock on the door. I was like, This is so cool.

I was handy. I also needed projects.

You were very, very, very handy. Yeah. You fixed everything in my house. I actually need you to fly to LA and come to that. I need something fixed. I have a couple of items that need fixing.

If you have anything that needs to be put together.

And you're cheaper and funnier than a handyman.

I think so.

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On March 16th, 2000, two sheriff's deputies were shot in Atlanta. Jamil Al Amin, a Muslim leader and former black power activist, was convicted. But the evidence was shaky and the whole truth didn't come out during the trial. My name is Mosie Secret. When I started investigating this case in my hometown, I uncovered a dark truth about America.

He said to me, You don't.

Need.

To take care of them for not doing something to pain you or something like that? I said.

No, what are you talking about? But I had no idea.

Who he had become.

That's how he approached you? You know what he meant when he said that.

Yeah, I'm thinking murder in a minute.

I think that's what he was thinking, too. From Tenderfoot TV, Camside Media, and iHeart Podcasts, Radical is available now. Listen to the new podcast, Radical, for free on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

In the new Amy and TJ podcast, Amy Robach and TJ Homes, a renowned broadcasting team with decades of experience delivering headline news and captivating viewers nationwide, are sharing their voices and perspectives in a way you've never heard before. They explore meaningful conversations about current events, pop culture, and everything in between. Nothing is off limits.

This was a scandal that wasn't, and this was not what you've been sold.

The Amy and TJ podcast is guaranteed to be informative, entertaining, and above all, authentic. It marks the first time Robach and Holmes speak publicly since their own names became a part of the headlines.

This.

Is the first time that we actually get to say what.

Happened.

And where we are today.

Listen to the Amy and TJ podcast on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm going to jump to Charmed. And I was obviously off of 90210. I was very trepidacious of working with Aaron, Spelling again and getting involved because they burned me really badly on 90210. And I was probably carrying around a lot of resentment and anger still.

Absolutely.

-working, doing mall rats, doing different projects and pretty chilled. Holly, I picked you up, right? Mm-hmm. We were in my car and she saw this script thrown in the back seat.

That's how much you looked at it. You saw spelling just through it.

Yeah, I saw Aaron spelling and I was like, I'm not going down that path again. No, thank you. But you saw it and you were like, Have you read it? I was like, Absolutely not.

I said, Actually, this one is pretty good. You'll probably like it. You said, No, it says spelling on it. I said, I know, I understand. But if they sent it to you, that means they want to work with you on it and it might be a good thing.

Yeah, and I read it.

Then you had your meeting with Aaron coming to Jesus moment.

I mean, it wasn't really a coming to Jesus moment. It was for him. It was for him. You walk in and it's as if nothing happened. I mean, for him, that's how he conducted the meeting. It was like, kiddo, let's do this project together. It's going to be great. I was just like, Do we want to talk about everything that happened in the past? Do we want to talk about that you fired me and didn't even have a discussion with me? And all the stuff that transpired on 90210 and how that was just an ugly situation. But no, he didn't really want to discuss any of it. He just wanted us to move forward.

He was moving on.

But you were right. It was really well written. Constance Burge did an amazing job. It was supernatural, but it had darkness to it as well. It was funny to a certain extent. The relationship between the sisters was so powerful and so great. It was.

Funny by accident. It wasn't supposed to be funny. Anything funny that happened was totally by accident.

That's true.

But then it worked because the circumstances were so beyond reality that to have those moments of humor or humanizing moments helped it a lot.

Yeah. Aaron offered us different roles.

Well.

I'm jumping ahead once again. He wanted me for Piper for your role.

Yeah. I had auditioned for Phoebe, which was painful.

Yes. We were like, Let's switch this around. Let me be the older, let you be the middle. He didn't believe that we were old enough to play those characters.

Yeah, it was actually we were the appropriate ages for the other characters that we preferred.

Right. We preferred them because they were like, Pru, felt more authentic to me. She also felt like a different character than which was really important to me. Like, Brenda, a 902 and a 0 was such a... She had so much teenage angst and made so many mistakes and was selfish and self-serving in her own way. And Pru was the antithesis of that. She was all about her sisters and all about self-sacrifice, which I really liked as far as a career move. And for me personally, I just didn't want to play a character that seemed a little frazzled or the Phoebe character, which was a little on that immature cusp. I wanted to play a very solid, strong woman who put her sisters above everything else. Why did you want to play Piper?

I don't know. I just felt I definitely couldn't be the youthful, phoebe one. I don't think I was that youthful when I was youthful. And so Piper was just far more appropriate for me at the time. And she was a handful. It was a challenge.

Right. Which I think is the thing about the two of us always is that we like challenges.

Definitely. I don't want to be bored.

Hence a lot of our mistakes. All of them. We're like, Well, that's a challenge. That one's a challenge. We can change him. I don't see red flag.

It's fun. I can.

Turn that green.

No problem. We've got a discount on red flags today.

Oh, my God. Yeah, I mean, I think that Piper, I just remember reading the script. And when you were like, I want to play Piper. I thought this actually makes sense because you would bring your... You have a dryness to you, which I love. That's my sense of humor is a little dry, a little dark, super witty, clever. And yet there back then, not saying that it's like this now, back then, there was something naive about you personally and still very trusting regardless of your mistake. You were still very trusting and soft. And it was a good casting call for you to be Piper because you were able to bring the vulnerability to her, the naivety to her, and along with your dryness, your eye rolls, which you're now famous for.

Apparently.

You brought a character that I personally felt when I read the script was two-dimensional, and you really made her three-dimensional. You gave her so many different layers and so many different colors. You brought her to life, I think, in a way that not even the producers or Constance could have seen coming.

Yeah, well, Constance was tough too. Remember, she based the characters on her sisters. And so she was trying to hold me to what she had created. And I was like, You got to give me a little leeway here. You got to give me a little. It was tough to make everybody happy the network was against me. Only Aaron and you wanted me. You blackmailed the network into wanting me.

We'll go into that story. Was the network WB or CW at that point?

It was still the WB.

The WB. So I was already committed to the project. And Aaron and I made a calculated decision to take only Holly for Piper and another girl, Dana, for Phoebe. So we go to the network. I'm sitting in with the network. The girls come in individually and read off of me. And it's really like I love telling the story. I hope you like it as much as me because I just think it's such an interesting take on Hollywood and sometimes the close-mindedness of people and someone like you, persevering and proving everybody wrong, which I love. But so you came in and you read, Dana came in and read. And the network, you guys went out of the room and the network looked at me and they said, Yeah, she just doesn't have that it factor. And I was like, What are you talking about? That charisma, that like, You know, that charisma. When you walk in a room, Shannon, everybody takes notice. And I went, Whoa, whoa, whoa. That's because... I'm now who I am thanks to 9.02.0, thanks to a network giving me a chance, thanks to Fox Network saying like, okay, let's hire her for Brenda.

It's because I was on the cover of Rolling Stone magazine. Like, you give this girl this part and she's going to do all of that. They were still sitting on the fence. Aaron and I walked out. And I remember that you and Dana were standing in the parking lot. And Aaron and I walked away from you guys. And Aaron goes, kiddo, what do you want to do? I'll fight for Holly. I said, She does it or I don't do it. Aaron goes, I'll back you. I went, Great. So we had our piper. We did not have our Phoebe.

I believe the term, the actual term was star quality. She doesn't have the star quality that you do. That one stuck with me for a while. I know exactly the person who said it. She actually called me years later to do another pilot. It's after Charmed. It was a pilot. It was six women.

Mistresses, right?

Yeah. I said, Are you trying to kill me? She goes, No, absolutely not. She goes, I think you're the perfect person for this project. I was like, Why? She goes, Because I know you'll deal with all of them really well. I was like, God damn it. But it didn't get picked up, obviously, anyway. I think they picked up Drop Dead Diva instead.

Right. Then they cast this girl out in New York, Laurie Rom, who was wonderful, loved her. She fit in perfectly. She brought something like she was quirky. She was quirky, but took everything very seriously.

Yeah, I think she was primarily a stage actress before this, and it showed.

Yeah. I mean, I enjoyed her, but she ended up quitting.

She did.

After.

We got picked up.

Then they filled her part with Alyssa Milano.

It was actually right in the middle. We found out right in the middle of the TV guide shoot that she wasn't coming to the shoot and we didn't know why. We found out later that she was a member of a particular church and the church didn't like that she was a witch on TV and basically told her she would go to hell.

Listen, not the decision I personally would have made clearly, but I do respect her for putting her faith and her values first.

Kind of couldn't argue with it. Nobody could. They just went, Okay, now what do we do? That's why that TV guide shoot, there's us on each side. They just dropped a listen to the middle of the photoshoot.

What a time period. Charmed was like a... I look back and think that that first season was the best season to shoot as far as everybody getting along. Sure. I mean, compared to season two and season three, for me, season one, we were all still new working together and filling things out. There were obviously things that we didn't necessarily all agree on. I didn't think it was important to move to a studio lot so that we could have a commissary. There were just a few of those things where you're like, Okay. I look at season one a lot and say, Wow, we were getting our feet under us. You see the steady improvement from season one to season three, season three being my favorite season. And just the growth with our writers. And I think even the growth with our acting, we settled into our Parts A lot more and felt a bit more of a freedom, certainly in season three. I'm not going to talk about the other seasons because I was there. So why would I? But like, you and I had so many arguments with the producers about our clothing, about our hair.

They wanted to control every single aspect of us. We had zero freedom.

Yeah. Well, that's Aaron's thing, too, with the hairstyles. We were not allowed to change our hair for the first, I think, six episodes. They didn't even want it to be up.

You had to establish your hairstyle and keep it that way because he felt that that's how an audience became familiar with you.

Yeah, that's how they identified with the character was big part of the hair.

Right. And listen, maybe he's right.

It's a formula.

For sure. It's a formula. I mean, I like to think that people are identifying with the character because of what we're bringing to it in our performances, not in the physical.

Right. Well, one would hope.

But it's all right. When you work that hard and those hours, you're working 17, 18-hour days, it's nice to think that it's because you're talented and people are connecting with the character as opposed to your hairstyle.

Well, yeah, the job is to create a human, a whole human. It was a little tight. It was a struggle. We were struggling to prove ourselves. We were struggling to prove ourselves to the network and all of it. I mean, we could keep talking about it, or we could just reboot the reboot.

We're not talking about episodes. We're not getting into any of that. Promise you, that is for the reboot.

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On March 16th, 2000, two sheriff's deputies were shot in Atlanta. Jamil Al-Amin, a Muslim leader and former black power activist, was convicted. But the evidence was shaky and the whole truth didn't come out during the trial. My name is Mosie Secret. When I started investigating this case in my hometown, I uncovered a dark truth about America.

He said to me, You don't.

Need.

To take care of them for not doing something to pain you or something like that.

I said, No, what are you talking about? But I had no idea who.

He had become.

That's how he approached you? You know what he meant when he said that.

Yeah, I'm thinking murder in a minute.

I think that's what he was thinking too. From Tenderfoot TV, Camside Media, and iHeart Podcasts, Radical is available now. Listen to the new podcast, Radical, for free on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

In the new Amy and TJ podcast, Amy Robach and TJ Homes, a renowned broadcasting team with decades of experience delivering headline news and captivating viewers nationwide, are sharing their voices and perspectives in a way you've never heard before. They explore meaningful conversations about current events, pop culture, and everything in between. Nothing is off limits.

This was a scandal that wasn't. And this was not what you've been sold.

The Amy and TJ podcast is guaranteed to be informative, entertaining, and above all, authentic. It marks the first time Robach and Holmes speak publicly since their own names became a part of the headlines.

This.

Is the first time that we actually get to say what.

Happened.

And where we are today.

Listen to the Amy and TJ podcast on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

I want to ask a question. Are you excited about your new endeavor?

After I recorded the first episode, I said to Chris on the phone, I was like, Who needs therapy? It's like... There's something very cathartic about doing a podcast. And especially, I think, when it's like my type of podcast where you're unpacking your life, you're basically looking at everything. And in real time going, Oh, maybe I was at fault. Maybe I did this. Maybe I did that. Or maybe this person needs to take responsibility. I think it is giving me and going to give me in the future everything that I would be spending $250 an hour for.

Absolutely.

So I'm very excited about that. I'm saving money.

Yeah.

I bought a new pair of boots today because I was like, Well, I saved money on therapy. So I like it so far. I also love the fact that I'm in sweatpants and slippers.

Absolutely. I can't beat it.

This is an interesting question. I don't think anybody's ever asked us this. And you and I do a lot of conventions together, and fans get to ask us questions on panel. And they're usually about certain episodes. But what would you say the similarities are between us and the differences between us? Because people really look at us as like sisters. So it's an interesting question.

Similarities, we definitely have the same sense of humor. Like when we did the travel show, we could entertain each other. We don't really need other people. I really don't. I don't know. We were just always terribly compatible. I basically lived with you and Rob for quite a while. I don't know how Rob feels about that still to this day, but we ate the same, we traveled the same, we hated people the same, got in bar fights the same.

Made the same mistakes.

Right.

We.

Just have very similar personalities. We come from very different childhoods, but we're just very similar. We do holidays the same, and there's not a lot of people I can.

Say that about. Right. Yeah, I think one of my favorite trips of ours that is actually not in the Travel Show is when my parents, you and I went to Ireland.

That really should have been the Travel Show. I don't know what we were thinking.

It should have. The network didn't want to pay for the whole overseas trips, but that was definitely one of the most fun vacations I've ever had. You and I walking around Ireland and sneaking out of castles so that my parents didn't see us sneaking out. Meanwhile, they were watching us from their tower room.

And we were of age, people. We were still of age.

And then we got caught because one of the castles was you had to take the little, the castle, ferry over, but we got back too late.

How.

Did we get back?

We had to call a guy who knew a guy that had the thing that came across the moat thing that were too loud coming in, apparently. Your mother was up and your mother was waiting, and it still feels terrible. It really does. But Zoom is very upset with me.

She was. She was upset with us both. She was like, It's dangerous. Two girls going... Meanwhile, we just went to the neighborhood pub.

You went to the pub? As one does.

Yeah, and we had a blast hanging out with all the Irish people and trying to mimic their accents and getting to know them and hearing the story of Ireland from people who actually live there.

There are some great photos from that night.

Do you have them? You have to.

Send me some. Yes, I do.

I actually don't have that many photos from Ireland, but I need some. I recently realized that I do not have nearly as many photos as I thought I did. Like just saved up over the years. I don't know what happened unless they always included a boyfriend and I was mad and ripped them up.

They're probably in storage somewhere.

I have found some photos where it's ripped in half. So I know that there was a guy that I was dating next to me in the photo, but I've now ripped him out of the photo. But I apparently really liked how I looked in the photo, so I didn't want to just throw it out completely, which is hysterical. There's quite a few of those. And then I have to try to backtrack by my outfit to figure out who was in the photo with me. Fashion determined who I was with. We had Ireland, so we're similar. How are we different besides our childhood.

You drive a lot faster than I do.

I'm an aggressive driver. Yes, you are.

You're a lot, how do I say? Not like a neat freak, but you're much more tidy than I am.

Yes.

I do admire your drive, though. I can see- I.

Do like keeping things in order.

Yeah. See that that wood thing behind her has to be at a certain diagonal on the counter, and it cannot be five degrees this way or that way. It has to be this way. That one right there, just so you know.

Well, when I place things.

I.

Take my time placing stuff in my home because my sanctuary, right? It's where I feel the safest. So if I've spent months just looking for the right piece, and I then spend hours figuring out exactly where it goes and at what angle and somebody comes in and moves it, it tweaks my brain a little bit. But I'm not OCD, but I do like things very much in order. I'm very, very like...

Look, you had to look to check to see if.

It was right. I did. I'm craning my neck. I'm like, is it right? So that I.

Will say you're much more okay with diagonals and angles where I have to have everything straight or it drives me insane. I will be OCD about that. This bag is crooked. I'm going to straighten it. You are happy just putting furnitures and desk on angles. And I'm just like, Why did she do that?

Only because- But it works. -everything else is straight lines. I'm not the person that enjoys a lot of arches and any of that. My house is, as you know, it's very square or a rectangle or straight lines. So then I like to soften those straight lines by moving furniture at a slightly off-kilter angle. Yeah. Yeah.

That tweaks my brain.

I think we're both... I wouldn't say that we're germaphobes, but I do think we're both very conscious of that.

Yeah, try to be, sure.

Or we're going for how we're different. I think from my point of view, those differences have become less as you've gotten older.

Oh, yeah. No, I blame you for everything.

Exactly.

When I tell people to fuck off now, I'm like, That's Shannon's fault. I don't know where that came from.

You're one of many who blame me for everything, so it's all good. I've heard it a lot lately. Yeah. I think in the beginning with Charm, for instance, you were much more of a people pleaser, a producer pleaser. You had your thoughts, you had your opinions, but you were far quicker to acquiesce than I was.

Definitely. I mean, I barely made it there, so I had to be like, Okay, sure.

But then you started finding your voice. For me, your voice really started becoming much more strong in the third season. You were gaining it in the second season, but by the third season, I felt like you had your voice and you were willing to use it for the good of the show. It was always about improving and better scripts or people actually showing up and doing their job and not complaining about it.

I mean, it was very important to me, and I don't know how. I mean, it always was to both of us. It was always very important. And even to elicit in the beginning because here we were these child performers coming out of those trenches, trying to have some sense of normalcy as grownups, and wanting this not to fail. We had that in common in the beginning that we all wanted this to be good and wanted this to be our foray into being grownup actors and to be taken seriously. And that's a tough jump for kid actors to suddenly be able to do this and be suddenly women. Because we were still young, we were surrounded by a team of men, aside from Connie, really, in the beginning. Yeah, we had something to prove, for sure. And so by season three, it's like you have to believe in yourself. You have to find your footing or you're going to just constantly look like you don't know what you're doing.

And we cared. We cared about the work. We cared about what we were putting out there and we cared about... You and I were always... Towards the beginning, we were like, Yeah, we'll stay here. We may be exhausted, we may be tired. The crew wants to go home, we want to go home. But listen, if we don't have it, we don't have it. We'll stay and we'll get it because we cared about what was going on that screen.

Yeah, and very dedicated. And I don't know where that came from necessarily, but it was just a dedication to making it right and making it well. And it's a work ethic that I don't think you can really manufacture.

It is work ethic, and it's work ethic along with being grateful, right? Right. I think that we were both always very grateful. Gratefulness does not equate to not having an opinion.

Right.

You can still be grateful and look and say, you know what? This script is not great. Let's do a polish on it. Or this doesn't feel natural to me. This relationship on this show between these two characters isn't working. You can still have an opinion, but be grateful for being there. You just want your opinion valued and heard and respected, even if it gets rejected at the end of the day, as long as it's respected and heard, it's okay.

Oh, many times. And I've been accused of taking the show too seriously at times. And I've been accused of being too involved at times. There were times that I watched dailies every day, and I would call the editors and go, Why did you use that take and not that take? I was overly involved at a certain point, but it just because it mattered to me, I didn't want it to suck.

Yeah. We both always talked about the comparison as practical magic, which was one of our favorite movies.

Yeah, it was a great book. It was one of my first favorite books.

I remember we referenced that movie a lot, on occasion, a lot and on occasion to our producers and to our writers like, Okay, look at how they did this. Particularly, I think, with the CGI.

Yeah.

Because our CGI was.

Really rough. It was limited.

It was very long period of time.

It was limited. It was what we could afford at the time, for sure.

Yeah, it was not great. But I mean, it was pretty successful. I think everybody was... I think the network and spelling people, they were all like, wow, this actually premiered well, and it kicked off well. And then the audience fell in love with the concept and fell in love with the characters and the sisters. And we were able to connect people in a way that they weren't connecting before.

Yeah, it was a big premiere for the WV at the time. And I remember Aaron saying it was the first time they had gotten a full-season pickup so early. The first season went pretty well. And that was the only time that that happened because every season after that, they made us wait for it. And we never knew if we were going to be canceled or not.

For me, the way that things were on 9/0, 2, 1,0 and standing up for myself against all the men, and I think that got carried over into charm to a certain extent because it was still the same group of producers, right? And it was still producers who... They started getting a little bit better about pretending to listen, but they weren't really listening. And whenever I would say something that was constructive about trying to improve the show or about my character, they would go, , . And then smile and walk away. And then I remember that my attorney or my agent or my manager would always get a phone call being like, Shannon needs to stay in her lane. And she's an actress, and that's her job. And she can't tell us how to run a show. And it's always like, my God, when do things become collaborative? Things were very collaborative with Kevin Smith and Mauraat and a bunch of the other things that I did. So going back into this situation with Spelling, I was like, so things haven't really changed that much. They're not evolving with the times. And I will say again that we were definitely ahead of the time of the women's movement that has happened in the business.

We were pushing for our voices to be heard. We were rebelling against the patriarchy, if you will, like the men who just wanted us to stay in a box and wear skin tight clothes with our boobs hanging out and keeping our hair a certain way and all of that stuff. We were already pushing up against that and saying, no, we have a little bit more to offer than all of that. So let us bring everything that's within us to the show. Like, let us be the creatives and the talent that you hired. You need to trust us at some point.

Yeah, which wasn't by design, though, it just happened organically. And I think the fact that we knew each other from before and we stuck together and creatively, we wanted more and we wanted better and we wanted more realistic portrayals of women. There were just some times where the dialog just didn't sound right. It didn't sound like a person our age would talk like that. So it needed to... Well, it was because a 45-year-old, 50-year-old guy was writing it. So it was like all of that happened organically. I don't remember ever feeling like we were being a pain in the ass. I couldn't have done it any other way. I couldn't have just been a puppet. That's just not in me.

But I definitely look back on all of that and think we were some of the very first trailblazers in petitioning, if you will, for women to have a voice that actually mattered in a male-dominated business. And certainly in a very male-dominated set with producers who were used to things being done a certain way and keeping their actresses in a box.

We were show ponies, for sure. We were show ponies. I think people get confused when they see so many women writers on Charmed and say, Well, there were women behind the scene, but there wasn't for us. The only producers we got to see were spelling producers, which were all men. The writers had a writer's room that was all the way in Hollywood, very far removed from us. They didn't get to visit. They didn't get out much. That room stayed in the Aaron Selling building by design. And there wasn't women writers on set aside from Connie. And eventually we saw how that went too. She was pushed out creatively, financially, and in all the ways of the show that she created based on her own sisters by the group of guys.

I also don't remember that many female writers in the first three seasons.

That's because they never got out of the building. And they just didn't get to visit a lot. And also the problem was that Brad.

Did a.

Polish on every script. So it didn't matter if we had a great script from Daniel or Zach and Chris. It came out feeling and hearing, sounding the same because Brad did a polish on every script. And I was like, How many times am I going to say we're screwed? Every time there was a we're screwed, it was Brad Kerne. I was like, I know.

We're talking about the showrunner, producer Brad Kerne, who was an interesting fella. Illustrious. You're the best. Yeah. I was such a fascinating letter from him that at some point I'm going to read on this podcast. It's just fantastic. It was after I was gone from the show and him experiencing that show without me and a deep, deep apology letter of like, Oh, my God, which is great. You're like, okay, but you don't want to hear it after the fact. You want to hear it. You want to be protected in that moment. So going back to us as women, I think it was also three women on a show supposed to, in its own way, be an ensemble. But I was cast first. The show was originally sold to the WB based on me. So obviously that's going to be there. That's just natural. But once those magazine covers started happening and one person is being asked and the other one isn't or you're... And I experienced this on 90210 as well with the cover, Rolling Stone. And everybody was super mad at me because I did the Cover Rolling Stone and didn't request everybody else.

And I was like, Okay, it's cover of Rolling Stone. I'm not saying no to it. And I felt that I didn't feel it was happening of the competitiveness was kicking in. And I'm not saying with you, I'm saying with Alyssa and myself that there was a lack of female support.

Oh, yeah.

And I personally was never... I've had the same publicist for I don't even know how long, Leslie Sloane. And she could come on podcast and be like, Shannon never cared about somebody else getting a cover. It just wasn't in my wheelhouse. And I actually, even though it was supposedly good for my career, we were working so hard. I was like, to then go on your weekend and do a photoshoot was a nightmare to begin with. But there was a competitiveness with Alyssa. I heard that she addressed it in her book. Obviously, I'm never reading her book because it's sorry, not sorry. So right there it tells me like, you're not freaking sorry. Why have I mentioned something in that case? And there was also competitiveness about you, which was really interesting of trying to pull you away from me. And that transpired in that second season. And it was, I know for me, it was an incredibly rough season. You were going through health stuff. You were in the hospital. And my dad had been, as you know, in and out of the hospital non-stop. And hospitals scared me to death. And I waited 24 hours after your surgery to go.

And then it wasn't even easy for me to get in. I was being told I couldn't even get in.

I was not fun.

By Alyssa and her mom, they were blocking people from seeing you. And at the time, you didn't know. And I remember you texted me and were like, Dude, are you going to come to see me? And I could feel like your pain of feeling like I had abandoned you. But I also felt like my anger at the situation of not being allowed to come see you.

And.

How a family had swooped in and caused this weird divide between the two of us that then continued throughout season two, where I think I cried every single night of season two. What is your take on season two? Because it was really interesting. And you can go broad strokes.

Watching season two, I like season two because I feel like we were more ourselves than anything.

I agree.

But there was a lot going on behind the scenes. I think it was pretty obvious that I was raised by teenage parents. I didn't have a big family. And so you're right, when a family swooped in and tried to basically adopt me, it was very seductive for me. And I also wanted everybody to get along. I wanted the show to be successful, and that was part of that. There were no angels. There were no demons. We all had bad days. We all had good days. We all could have behaved better at certain points. But there was a lack of awareness of a bigger, broader picture of just being, like you said, grateful to have a job and to be doing something that we liked and to be in a position of power to do something that we liked was not something that happens easily or normally or routinely.

Well, we are out of time for today, but there is so much more I want to talk to you guys about. So everyone, please join me next week for part two of my interview with Holly Marie Combs. Until next time.

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