Walter Isaacson set out to write about a world changing genius in Elon Musk and found a man addicted to chaos and conspiracy.

I'm thinking it's idiotic to buy Twitter because he doesn't have a fingertip feel for social emotional networks.

The book launched a thousand hot takes, so I sat down with Isaacson to try to get past the noise.

Well, I like the fact that people who say I'm not as tough on Musk as I should be are always using anecdotes from my book to show why we should be tough on Musk.

Join me, Evan Ratliff, for on Musk with Walter Isaacson. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Tune in to the new podcast stories from the village of nothing, much like easy listening, but for fiction. If you've overdosed on bad news, we invite you into a world where the glimmers of goodness in everyday life are all around you. I'm Catherine Nikolai, and I'm an architect of cozy come spend some time where everyone is welcome and the default is kindness. Listen, relax, enjoy. Listen to stories from the village of nothing much on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hilary Burton Morgan here, and I'm excited to tell you about a new series I'm launching. It is the companion podcast to Sundance TV's true crime story. It couldn't happen here. Now on the tv show, we focus on small towns and the crimes that can rip them apart. And on this podcast we will go even deeper into our cases and give you a unique insider perspective on how these stories are told. Come join us as we get curious and get involved. Listen to true crime story. It couldn't happen here on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is, let's be clear with Shannon Dougherty. Hi, everyone. This is, let's be clear with Shannon Dougherty, part two of my interview with Holly Murray Combs. Hi, Hall.

So good we had to do it again.

It's kind of like where we left off. We were talking about charmed and what transpired and what happened. And I don't know if the statement was made in her book or if it was on her press tour. I don't really know because I didn't at that point in time pay all that close of attention to it.

And I know that people are really interested in what actually happened. It's a question that you and I get. I think when we do the conventions. And we go on these panels. People have asked us, and I sort of would say, oh, it's wait for the podcast. Wait for the podcast. Now it's here.

Let's be clear.

Let's be clear.

I just want to make sure that everybody knows that there's zero hate here. The past is definitely done and over with, and it's not even like we really talk about this at all. Think this is coming up because it's a question that I get asked on an absolute regular basis at every convention that we do. Every single fan that I run into on the streets always asks me, why did you quit? Why did you quit? Why did you quit?

And.

The narrative that I quit was assigned to me by other people, wasn't assigned to me. I didn't assign it to myself. And I think I'm just at that point in my life where I don't want to keep lying about something, and.

I don't want to keep lying about.

Something that meant the absolute world to me, something that I loved doing. I loved going to that job. I loved the people that I worked with. And I had a father who was extremely sick and had a lot of medical needs. And this show really helped me to provide for an entire family. So when my livelihood got taken away, it was extremely hard. I still went with the narrative and the story that everybody wanted me to go with. But now, at my age and dealing with stage four cancer, I just don't feel like I have to keep telling a lie. I feel like it's okay to be honest.

So one of the biggest sort of myths out there was that I quit.

Well, that story has a backstory and then another story.

Yeah, it has a lot of backstories, which we'll go into, but just to sort of address that, I don't think that there's anybody in their right mind that would quit a hit show that's paying them a good amount of money that they actually really enjoy working on, which was my deal. I enjoyed it.

Yeah, you did. You were very dedicated. You like to show up for stunt rehearsals a day early and do your wardrobe a week early. It was really annoying.

Well, I mean, Eilish was, like, so good prepared.

You were overly prepared.

I was. I like to be prepared. But sort of during that time period, after the first season, when everybody sort of got acclimated, I think things obviously started to change, and the show got a lot more attention, and us girls got individual attention, and that may have caused some.

Yeah, I heard that. I mean, we've talked about that, but I never knew that because I wasn't the one doing the maximum covers. I think I did one terrible cover, and they gave me very big boobs, and I was like, who is she?

They did. I remember that cover.

It was stuff.

Was it stuff magazine?

They made me, like, 6ft tall and gave me really big boobs, and I was like, okay, that wasn't the picture I approved, by the way. I had final approval on the photo on the COVID and it was a version of the photo I approved, but that was the only naked, naked maxim type photo shoot I did. And I remember saying to my publicist at the time, I was like, shouldn't I take, like, a couple of weeks? Well, I was in my 20s, maybe three, to work out and look good for this. And he was like, honey, no, they airbrush Giselle. They don't even care what you look like.

And I was like, ouch. By the way, stuff magazine, the name, it sounds like a porno magazine.

Yeah, well, it looked like it, but actually, the COVID shot was the one I was most comfortable with because I just wore my jeans. I wasn't wearing, like, red lingerie, and I was topless, but my hair was covering my boobs, so that was the one. I was like, cool, I can swing this.

I remember this cover. It's very sexy.

I thought so. I mean, if I was six foot and had double ds.

Yeah, don't look it up.

Oh, my God. Woman let some things die. Okay, so they weren't double ds. They were like C's. But still, hey, you never know. I could go shopping.

Those are big.

Yeah, it's too big for my five foot two.

Look at your abs.

Yeah, and they got longer. That's what I mean. Like, I got long. I got tall.

Yeah, they definitely stretched the torso.

They did, because I have no torso.

I mean, you look good, though.

The real picture was fine too, though.

Yeah, I think I did, like, FHM and lingerie and then Maxim.

You guys were on the circuit.

We were, but it was more of, like, all the other. Yes. Those magazines were. They served a purpose back then, but it was like the people magazines or the individual tv guide covers or this or the. That. In my case, I guess my contract was that I was the highest paid because I was the one that the network hired and sort of greenlit the show based on. So it was something my attorney negotiated in there, and that caused rift once alyssa found out. That was definitely.

Yeah, and spelling did some backdoor deals. I don't know why. He's privy to all the backdoor deals. But people tell me everything.

I guess you do have a plethora of knowledge of stuff that didn't even really pertain to you. It was kind of wild.

Yeah. And I keep every text and email, so truth be told, let's be clear.

Yeah, I do, too.

Oh, I know this. I do know about you.

Yeah. Some people don't love that about me, but that's all right. I just like keeping all that stuff because I think it's really good reference. If somebody is saying something that transpired, that didn't transpire, then I can go back in the email and be like, well, actually, here's the email. Yeah, I think that's like the attorney side of me coming out.

Right.

So there were all sorts of little jealousies. You went into the hospital and that was a little bit of an asked.

It was funny. I don't know why they put me in a room with Jonathan Levin, of all people. It wasn't Jim, wasn't Aaron. Well, Aaron had kind of was having his own health problems at that point, but it wasn't Jim, and it wasn't Duke who were by my bedside when I woke up from surgery. So it was interesting that when I had a problem after this all transpired, and I wanted to discuss leaving the show and all my reasons why they put me in a room with Jonathan Levin, which I don't know that I had seen since we went to network, and you had told me about your background with him, which is varied and interesting. And he obviously has a very fond spot, shall we say, for you. And I don't know why they chose him to do this meeting, but I can tell you that during the meeting where I said, this is not the show I signed on to do, I hear that you're looking for other people, and it's not about the list of names. It's about, this is not a show that I wanted to do without Shannon. She didn't want to do it without me, therefore I don't want to do it without her.

And that should be fairly clear. And he had tears in his eyes already because he could see I was getting upset, as you can hear me getting upset. And I said, why would you hire her again just to fire her? And he said, we didn't mean to. And he said, but we've been backed into this, said, you know, we're basically in a position where it's one or the other. We were told that it's her. Me and Alyssa has threatened to sue us for a hostile workplace environment, which, because she went to the therapist or the mediator or the corporate mediator or whatever the heck his title is, she built a case for herself where she was documenting every time she felt uncomfortable on set and for whatever reason, whereas you and I refused to speak to him. So that's where the deck was stacked.

I always think that when somebody does that, I would, as a producer, call them on it. And I know that that's a huge risk. And it was definitely one that they didn't want to take.

And what's funny is that by today's standard, it wouldn't even qualify because there were no onset brawls, there was no even harsh words exchanged. It was all behind the scenes. It was all in a trailer. It was nothing that anybody or any of our guest stars ever noticed or noted. And there is not a director that would not work with you again. There is not any one of our crew members that did not have a great time working with you. So by today's standards, it wouldn't fucking fly.

Right?

And I don't think being laid as a teenager on a set called 9210 would fly for being fired either. It just doesn't make any sense anymore. There are people that actually behave badly and get away with it, and there are men that abuse people, throw things, screaming fits and get away with it. I don't think people understand that. That never happened here unless you were there. No one understands that.

Yeah. Listen, I lived a year after that sort of replaying everything in my brain and really trying to find those moments where we. And I couldn't find them. We never had it out, not privately or publicly. I don't ever remember being mean to her on set, actually. I remember an episode that I directed where she did something on the Christmas break, and they asked me to work around some things with her, and I had no problem with it. I couldn't have been more kind and understanding. And the only thing was that there were a couple of things that sort of stood out to me. One was, her mom had that safe searching thing or whatever, and she showed up one day and said, oh, well, I designed your website and it's on safe searching now. And I was like, can you please take it down? My father doesn't feel well. He's not doing well, and I sort of want to give this to him as a project so he has something to occupy his time with.

I have no idea if that was a factor or not, but it happened.

They did yours as well, but you allowed it. Because why wouldn't you. You didn't have a dad that needed something to do.

He's floating around out there.

Right? And then the whole pay discrepancy, even though it was so incredibly minor, not even worth a conversation, really. But once that all came out and her and I had the conversation and my attorneys went to spelling and said, this is not okay. You can't be doing side deals with someone.

It was me that told you that there was another deal, so why wasn't I fired? Right? Yeah. And I think previously you had discussed with them that the tension was getting high and that you didn't want a replay of what had happened before, so you were preemptively trying to work it out. And I also wonder in the back of their minds if they didn't choose you because they knew they had done it before. And 9210 went on. I almost wonder if they were okay with the publicity, if they were okay with, we've done this before, it worked out fine. We can do it again.

I think that's a valid, valid point.

When Walter Isaacson set out to write his biography of Elon Musk, he believed he was taking on a world changing figure.

That night, he was deciding whether or not to allow Starlink to be enabled to allow a sneak attack on Crimea.

What he got was a subject who also sowed chaos and conspiracy.

I'm thinking it's idiotic to buy Twitter because he doesn't have a fingertip feel for social emotional networks.

And when I sat down with Isaacson five weeks ago, he told me how he captured it all.

They have Kansas spray paint and they're just putting Big X's on machines. And it's almost like kids playing on the playground just chews them up left, right, and center. And then like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, he doesn't even remember it. Getting to Mars doesn't excuse being a total, but I want the reader to see it in action.

My name is Evan Ratliffe, and this is Elon Musk with Walter Isaacson. Join us in this four part series as Isaacson breaks down how he captured a vivid portrait of a polarizing genius. Listen to Elon Musk on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Tune in to the new podcast stories from the village of nothing, much like easy listening, but for fiction. If you've overdosed on bad news, we invite you into a world where the glimmers of goodness in everyday life are all around you. I'm Catherine Nikolai, and you might know me from the bedtime story podcast. Nothing much happens. I'm an architect of cozy and I invite you to come spend some time where everyone is welcome and kindness is the default. When you tune in, you'll hear stories about bakeries and walks in the woods, a favorite booth at the diner on a blustery autumn day, cats and dogs and rescued goats and donkeys, old houses, bookshops, beaches where kites fly and pretty stones are found. I have so many stories to tell you, and they are all designed to help you feel good and feel connected.

To what is good in the world.

Listen, relax, enjoy. Listen to stories from the village of nothing much on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hilary Burton Morgan here, and I am excited to share with you a new series. I'm launching, a companion podcast to my passion project, Sundance TV's true Crime Story. It couldn't happen. Here on the show, we focus on small towns and the crimes that can rip them apart. The cases we've covered have confused me and they have made me deeply question our judicial system. What got me so excited about doing this podcast is that we have more time to really dig in. So you're going to hear more information on these cases as well as never before heard interviews, and you'll get to go behind the scenes with me and the team and learn what it's like to make a show like this. Come join us as we get curious and get involved. Listen to true crime story. It couldn't happen here on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I think back then, the male mentality was to pit the women against each other anyway in order to keep them controlled.

Yeah, no, they didn't want us working together. They wanted to keep us segregated and separated and not negotiating together, because then you have a friend situation where everybody's getting paid the same amount, and that's not what they wanted to do. Like I said before, I ended up doing the most hours for the least pay because I just didn't ask for raises. I didn't want more to be taken out of the budget. I didn't want to have no money for guest stars like I was producing then I knew that we had to get rid of Brian for some episodes to afford Nicolas. But at the time, when I had a three month old baby and I'm doing more hours than anyone and people are being let out for baseball know, I sat in my trailer and I was like. And I said to Jim, and I said to Duke, I was like, I don't need to do this. I don't want to do this. This is the second time. I don't want to do. I just. I don't know how you expect me to pick up all the pieces and go home to a three month old baby and not be ragged.

It just wasn't fair. It just wasn't fair.

Yeah. Because when I was gone, once I was gone, it really did fall completely on your shoulders, because at least while I was there, it was on my shoulders. And I would share it with you because we had the same mindset about the show. But then once I got fired, it was all on.

Know the writers were good about letting me work through the process of going through the change and grieving your loss and then being awkward with rose coming in. Yes, Pru and Paige, but I'm using their real life names because that's what I had to deal. You know, I had said to Jonathan, it's not the show that I want to do. It's not the show I signed up. You know, the conversation got to the point where he said, not just threatened to sue me, but said he would sue me and dock my wages if I worked anywhere else.

Right. I remember including being a bagger at a grocery store, they would still dock your wages.

Yeah. I said, well, I started laughing, like, through my tears, I started laughing, and I was like, what does that even mean? He said, we will sue you for what we think we will have lost on the show because of your departure, and we will dock your wages to regain those numbers. And I said, well, what if I go to Arizona and I bag groceries? He goes, we will dock your wages. It really was like, suddenly I'm married to the mob. They forced me to go back to a show that I wanted nothing to do with. And it was very emotional for me, and it was very emotional for both of us. And you couldn't understand how I couldn't do anything. And frankly, neither did I, because my voice meant nothing. And that's what was so funny to me. I was like, you're telling me I'm so valuable that you can't do the show without me, but yet my voice and my feelings and my thoughts mean nothing.

Well, imagine they couldn't lose two sisters. It's fine to go into a four season replacing one sister, and all of a sudden she's dead. And you have her direct her own death without telling her what she's doing, but to lose two, for sure. I think at that point, the audience would have turned, because the truth would have come out at that point, and eventually those people would have turned it off. Which is why I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but you and I have spoken about this. It's hard to have even this conversation publicly, because we are so respectful of the audience and the fans and how much they love the show, and they bond with the show, and they think of us all as sisters. So you don't want to break that.

You don't want to burst anybody's bubble. But the fact of the matter is, this is what I say it is like a real life family. We did have common goals, and we tried to keep it together, and we did get along famously for a long time. And then you just have life differences where sisters, as far as I know from having no siblings myself, families stop talking to each other, or people come back together and reunite, or they don't. And it's a painful bond, and it was a painful time. And for it to be put to me the way it was was. It felt like blackmail. And then try acting through that and making people want to see it.

Well, you succeeded.

Meh. I don't know.

People still wanted to see it. I think people inherently, instinctually understand that. It was like, once I was gone, it was you that was the glue between the new threesome. And I think it's why when people really think of charmed, it becomes, yes, Prue will always be there. But there's a big piper element, because I think it's obvious, like, you know, hurt. You were all of those things, I think that shows in how you dealt with it after. But during the rest of those years, you were the.

Know. And it was tough know. None of this was Rose's fault. And she was coming into this situation quite awkwardly. Even though she'll say she was a tough guy, she wasn't. This was awkward for her, and I had empathy for her for that. And I could see how difficult this was for her to just jump into not just being a show that was already running, but she had never done tv before, so there was a huge learning curve. So I was sensitive to that fact. And really, my only consolation, and it wasn't a very big one, was that I said to Jonathan, you guys will not have the privilege of saying that you fired her again. And I said, the only thing that I'm going to ask of you is that she gets to put out whatever statement she wants to. And I said, if anybody talks about it, then I'm going to be a very big problem.

I mean, what's really funny about that is that I had a pay or play deal, and when all of this went down, I was like, okay, they can't burn me a second time. That's not fair. It's not fair to me. So I really wanted to sue them for my pay or play deal, which would mean that for as long as you guys went on, I would continue being paid and my contract would be honored. As far as a paycheck goes and profit participation and everything that was in my contract. And my representatives, I remember them looking at me at the time and said, no, your career won't survive another firing. So we're just going to say that you chose to leave. And I remember I started laughing, going, who is going to believe that I'm crazy enough to leave a hit show.

Or to direct an episode that you died in in not such great fashion? We would have made it far more spectacular than that, for sure.

It wouldn't have been just a bookcase falling on you and me being thrown through the air and through a door wall or whatever.

We both went through the wall and looked like we were taking a nap.

I would have blown up. I would have had far more spectacular. Somebody take over your body and you blow me up, and let's see how you deal with killing her sister for the next season. I would have done something a lot more, but I'm going to say I was still young. I was 27, 28, 29, somewhere in that range, and really thought that I should listen to everybody else about my career. And it's not like a huge regret, because at the end of the day, it's just a tv show, and it's just one aspect of my life when my life is about so many other things. But I wish that I had been older and wiser because I definitely would have sued and I would have been honest about the situation because the rumors followed me regardless.

Right.

And so the rumors were there, but now I wasn't getting paid, and I was made out to. It makes you look crazy when you leave a hit show only after three seasons. I think that the people in the industry and the business knew what happened because word spread pretty fast.

Not necessarily, though.

Yeah, I mean, we ran into it a couple of times. It was awkward. And I think I said much earlier that there are things that you can forgive and forget, and I was pretty harsh saying that I would never forgive or forget. And I was contemplating that again today and yesterday, and I thought, is there forgiveness? I think there's acceptance, which, as you get older, you accept that a situation happened, but acceptance and moving on with your life does not equate to forgiveness. You just learn a lesson and look at somebody differently and move on.

I think we were all just cogs in that wheel. I think they knew how to make money and they did it well.

I was fine being, and I know that this doesn't sound very good for me, but I was fine being at cog in that wheel, to be honest, because it was a great show and it was something that I enjoyed. And the more it progressed and the more I got to do my stunts and I had that amazing stunt team, it was fun. I looked forward to going to work, and once they started letting me direct, I was in my element. I was assuming that four season, I would direct something like five episodes or four episodes. It gave me a lot of opportunities that I was incredibly grateful for. But then when that was sort of snatched away without even a fair trial, that's what's upsetting without a warning, though, either.

I mean, I remember when you called me and we were on hiatus and you were working and we hadn't really talked in a minute, and you said that they had just fired you. I said, that's impossible. It's impossible. I was like, you just directed the last episode. That's impossible. I really was like, you're mistaken. You're mistaken. Because it was just so preposterous, it was so ridiculous that it was, like, shocking. And you said, you need to do something, and I was like, it's just not even happening. It's so dumb. So dumb.

I will say that I think Rose stepped in nicely and that, as you said, was very. Yeah, I know that there were some press things trying to pit us against each other.

Well, that's what they did.

And I kept on referring to a photo of the two of us at an entertainment weekly party in New York City where we hung out and we're both smiling and happy with each other because there was no reason, it wasn't Rose's fault. There was no reason for me to have an issue with her. And she did a great job and she brought something quirky and different to the show. But it was definitely you that kept that train moving forward and being the person that cared oh so deeply, besides me for it, and making sure that the fans got what they needed out of that show. You were very dedicated to that cause.

Yeah, I was. I still am. And that's why going to cons, it's astonishing to me that it meant half as much to other people as it did to me, because I really thought I was going crazy for a little bit where I was like, I just so valiantly wanted to make it good and wanted to make it real. And for whatever reasons, I can't really even explain now. Part of it is work ethic, part of it is not wanting to fail. But it was a big deal to me. Wow.

Anything that you want to add?

I don't know. I got a little heated. I got to calm down a little bit. It was a terribly uncomfortable situation for me. And obviously, you saying, I'm not going to do the show without her in the beginning to network. And me saying it clearly didn't have the same know. And so it was terribly awkward for know Brian and she were dating at the time when this all went down, which to me, us being completely oblivious to me was the worst part, where it was like all sort of part of this plan that was happening and unfolding through over months. It was months of that year, and you were dating julian, so you guys were off in that world. And then Brian was off with Alyssa. He just recently, it was about a year ago in France, we were on stage at a panel that was filled with many, many people. And he just kind of paused. He looked at me like he forgot something. And I kind of looked at him like, what? What's the problem? Why are you looking at me like that? And he just looked at me while someone was asking a question and just went, I'm so sorry.

And I was like, sorry for what? I was like, are you going somewhere? What's happening? He just shook his head and he goes, I'm so sorry. Because we had talked about it a little on stage without talking about it because still no one was allowed to talk about it. And we got off stage and he just looked at me and said, I'm so sorry. That must have been a terrible time for you. That's all I have to say. I mean, it took him, like, 24 years, but better late than never. Better late than never.

I want to go back to something that you said right before that. And you said, when I said, the network, she's doing it, or you don't get me. And you said that obviously, when you tried that, it didn't mean as much. And I want to say that I disagree because I think had it been any normal situation that we were in with them, you saying that would have been enough, they would have chosen the right path and, yes, do that now in this day and age, it's not going to fly in any way, shape, or form. But your voice, I think, was appreciated. And I think they knew that they couldn't lose you, but they were over a legal barrel. And I don't want you to ever sell yourself short in that scenario. I know that you fought for me, and I know the tactics that they took with you, but you did the right thing. You stood up and you fought for what you believed in, for your friend, for the show. But that legal barrel that was created was just far too much for them. And you have to accept that also and understand that.

Again, I just want everybody listening to respect the fact that it's hard for the two of us to sit here and talk about this show in anything but a positive light, because we know how much it meant to the audience and to our fans and to the people that we hear from all the time, that talk about how it brought them closer to their families, or it helped them get through dark times when they were younger. And that is something that the two of us take very seriously. We love the fans. We love the show. We're super respectful. So none of this is to try, to try to tear any of that down. And as I said before, there's no hate left behind. We've all moved on, and we definitely wish everyone peace, love, and healing and all of that. I know I have much bigger things in my life to worry and concentrate on.

However.

One can't keep telling the same story over and over and over again when it's not the truth. And this podcast is, in fact, called, let's be clear.

So.

All right. Now, Holland, I are going to talk about something else.

Okay. I have a funny question. I mean, it's not funny, but it's one that we get asked a lot in the panels at the conventions, which is, would any of us ever consider doing a reboot? And how would we even manage to do it? Disclaimer being that we don't own the show. So it's very hard for us to.

Convince CBS to pull their heads out.

Of their asses and let us do it. And let us do it the right way. Let us do it right. But would you be interested in that? And what would that look like to you?

Gosh, it's a hard question to answer because I get asked about it weekly. Like, I'm not exaggerating. I hate the r word. I hate the theory that we're going to reboot something to make it better than it was.

So then let's not say a reboot. What if we do a continuation, but we've now fast forwarded so many years.

I have no problem doing it. I just hope for better special effects. I hope for people to understand that this show and this job meant so much to so many people around the world. And this is why I sometimes downplay it and people get angry at me, but it's like, it's hard to talk about how important it was when you were part of it. But I just think there's three generations now that have watched the show. There are people that watch it every day and sometimes twice a day. And, yeah, I would do it. I would just hope that people would come to it with an understanding that some things are bigger than you and some things are more important than personal feelings. And that being said, there's also split screen and green screen, and people don't have to work with each other if they don't want to. We can just make it look like you do. But, yeah, I think from the very beginning, I've been trying to say this thing is bigger than all of us. It's definitely bigger than me, and it still means a lot to a lot of people, and I'm glad it does, because that means that everything that we all went through actually still means something.

Agreed? Yeah, agreed. I was trying to get a more fun answer out of you.

I know, but it's too late. I'm already in the dark and gloomy gritty.

I was trying to think what would have happened to your kids by now, because what did happen to your kids? Is one, like, dead and one is dead.

Chris.

Chris is dead.

He had a terrible accident off of the Golden Gate bridge. No, I'm just kidding. We can't kill Drew, even though I want to kill Drew every day. Every day.

And the other kids that you had?

No. Yeah. Wyatt, he's the perfect child. And supposedly in the continuing. I think it's the comic Books. Yes, we have comic books, in case anybody didn't know. And we had novels like, connie wrote books after the show ended, along with a few other writers. I finally had the third kid because everybody said she had a girl. I think somebody has twins. I mean, there's all sorts of another generation, which is why people were always like, why didn't they just do the next generation? And I was like, you'll have to ask the CW, Paramount, and CBS that question.

I always say that Pru is now, like, the most powerful elder. You're an elder in the universe, but can come and kick physical ass all the time.

That's the thing, is, nobody really dies. So you technically can do whatever you want. Technically.

Right. Which I guess when they asked me if I would come for the finale, you said no. I said no, and I didn't even ask how they would bring me back, because it's a fantasy world, so obviously there's tons of different ways to do it, and they would have been open to my suggestions. But, yeah, I think I didn't want to do the finale because at that point, it had been however many seasons, and I was very separated.

You were trying to distance yourself from it and move on.

Yeah.

Which is understandable.

But I'm now an old lady, and I'm like, that's okay. I could still do some stunts.

I'm not doing any.

Come on. We can run around in heels still.

I want a rocking chair, and I.

Want to do your hand thing.

I can do that from a chair.

And she's got some grandkids now, probably.

Wait, they can go run around in heels. Drew wears heels just fine.

And your daughter's probably a witch.

She is.

Yep. I've never read these novels that Connie wrote. I'm going to have to try to track them down. Have you read them?

And the comic books? The comic books? I always seem to be doing laundry, so I'm not into those either.

No.

Oh, thank you.

No, that's not good.

So we kind of bonded over Sea shepherd, although you were very militant about it much more than I was. You're like, we're going to this demonstration today. I was like, it's Valentine's day. You were like, yeah, let's mean. We had that in common, and we had that sort of drive to be an activist in common. And I think, especially with what has happened to Sea shepherd, there's clearly more work to be done. I think it's about time for either one of us, or both of us, to have our own foundation, because right now, especially with what's happened to sea shepherd, it's hard to know who to trust, and it's hard to know where trust where your money is going and things like that. So I'm producing a documentary about the harbor seals up here. I just pledged my own money.

When Walter Isaacson set out to write his biography of Elon Musk, he believed he was taking on a world changing figure.

That night, he was deciding whether or not to allow Starlink to be enabled to allow a sneak attack on Crimea.

What he got was a subject who also sowed chaos and conspiracy.

I'm thinking it's idiotic to buy Twitter because he doesn't have a fingertip feel for social emotional networks.

And when I sat down with Isaacson five weeks ago, he told me how he captured it all.

They have Kansas spray paint and they're just putting Big X's on machines, and it's almost like kids playing on the playground just chews them up left, right, and center. And then like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. He doesn't even remember it. Getting to Mars doesn't excuse being a total, but I want the reader to see it in action.

My name is Evan Ratliff, and this is Elon Musk with Walter Isaacson. Join us in this four part series as Isaacson breaks down how he captured a vivid portrait of a polarizing genius. Listen to on Musk on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Tune in to the new podcast stories from the village of nothing much like easy listening, but for fiction. If you've overdosed on bad news, we invite you into a world where the glimmers of goodness in everyday life are all around you. I'm Katherine Nikolai, and you might know me from the Bedtime Story podcast. Nothing much happens. I'm an architect of cozy, and I invite you to come spend some time where everyone is welcome and kindness is the default when you tune in. You'll hear stories about bakeries and walks in the woods, a favorite booth at the diner on a blustery autumn day, cats and dogs and rescued goats and donkeys, old houses, bookshops, beaches where kites lie and pretty stones are found. I have so many stories to tell you, and they are all designed to help you feel good and feel connected.

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There's obviously a lot of really good foundations, but I'm always amazed at how much money is spent on administration salaries as opposed to the bulk of the money going towards the know. For me, it was very hard with Sea shepherd because of the thing with Taiji and paid my way there and went and got in a lot of trouble with Japan that didn't really want me to come back for a while and being there at the COVID and that was extremely hard. Just like watching all of their campaign for the baby seals in Canada that are clubbed death and then saying, okay, why aren't you still there? Well, it's going to die out. We've done a great job, and we've brought it down to a certain level, which is what a lot of these foundations do, is they think like, all right, so instead of 10,000 seals, it's now only 1000 seals. So eventually that's going to be zero seals. But what happens is once you disappear and you don't have a presence there anymore and you're not documenting it anymore, the 1000 seals turns into 3000 seals, which then turns into 5000 seals, and then you have the problem again.

And I'm a firm believer in sticking with a campaign until you get the result that you want. Right.

I think with them, they had limited resources even though they had the most of, you know, the focus would sway. But now with sea shepherd, it's no longer really sea shepherd. There's nobody in Taiji. There's only dolphin project in.

Correct. You know, and I will say dolphin project, how amazing, because they have stuck with it and poured a lot of money into it.

Very consistent with Lolita and very consistent with Taji and captives and rehabilitation. So they still get my vote.

Yeah, they get my vote, too. They've definitely proven to be stewards of those dolphins and taiji and the pilot whales and the melon heads and all of that. They've done a really beautiful job being stewards. Don't know how we don't eradicate that situation, especially considering that it's been proven that that meat is filled with mercury and incredibly bad for you. And I was just talking to a woman from Japan the other day, beautiful lady. She did my makeup for people magazine and kanoka, and we were talking about it, and she was saying that nobody really eats it anymore, that there's one area, one area in a certain generation that really eats it. And I said, well, of course, that's because they are going to continue claiming that they eat it because they can hide under the cultural banner as opposed to what it's truly about, which is financial. It's all about capturing those dolphins that they then get to go sell for a million dollars, $2 million. That poor albino dolphin is still in that small. And I was there at that Taiji whale museum, and that is nothing, no place for anything to be living in.

But they have to because they're making so much money. These fishermen. Fishermen don't know any other way. They don't want to know any other way. They get a ton of money, but they can't say, well, we're just greedy. We're just greedy. So we're going to keep killing dolphins and in the most horrific way possible, because those still rods that they put through their blowholes does not kill them right away. It is incredibly painful. They bleed out. They're separating mothers from their is. I've never seen something more horrific. And for anybody who still doesn't know anything about what's happening in the COVID in Taiji, there is a documentary called the COVID It's very good. You should watch it. And then you had me go with you to the protest in Miami.

That was Lolita.

Yeah, that was Lolita. Can you tell us a little bit about.

Unfortunately, you know, I don't know. There was also someone who took over the Miami Sea aquarium who was, I believe, pretending to have good faith in sending her home, which is actually where I live now, because I moved to sort of the neck of the woods where I felt I could do the most and was most inspiring to me, and she would have been rehabilitated here, but I feel like, and I did at the time, that they weren't being entirely honest, talking about raising funds and keeping them. I don't think this organization had any real plans on releasing her. And the same with did. I narrated the documentary on Corky, who is the longest held captive, and she's been there decades, like, lolita was there decades. And Lolita's case was really tragic because her tank wasn't even a legal size. So there were so many know that she should have been the one that was released. And sadly, she passed away just recently under really suspect circumstances that haven't totally been revealed. Know, and it was me and Paul Watson and one other person who said they have no intention of releasing her. This is all just a smokescreen.

It was all just a stall tactic and nobody really wanted to hear that. But with organizations like that, who their business is owning dolphins and SeaWorld, there's very little hope. We can talk about it. We can make movies about it. We can show how atrocious the tanks are and how dirty and how bored they are and how brilliant and smart and how they're meant to live with their families and be social, and we can do all that. But there's nothing that's going to convince a corporation to change their formula that's been making them money for decades without a tidal wave of public opinion. And unfortunately, there's just too many people who still go to SeaWorld and buy a ticket and basically fund abuse. There's just no other way to put it. You're funding animal abuse.

I get it.

Right?

Like, I get someone having a kid and being like, I want my child to see this killer whale and this dolphin or this elephant or this. I understand, but there are other ways to see these animals to witness. There are migrations that you can go see at any point in time. And then you're also teaching your child about respecting another being and what they're like in the wild. The corporations have to have, yes, an outcry of human opinion, and it's got to hit them in their wallets. They cannot profit from it anymore. Once it becomes too expensive for them to buy them and house them and they're just not making the profit, that's when things might change. Also, the regulations need to be better.

Yeah, they're losing money now. They're actually getting sued for lying to stockholders about how much they were actually losing because of the blackfish effect that they call it. But the fact of the matter is, if you don't humanize, and I don't like to do that with animals, but if you don't humanize the issue, people don't really care and go throughout their days. So, like, the campaign I did with PETA was pretty smart because they know moms shouldn't take their babies to SeaWorld, because what happens is, especially with orcas, the sons in the wild live with their mothers their entire life. Their entire life. They do not leave their mothers. And in SeaWorld, they separate the babies from their moms, separate families. And there's literally, like, they scream out shaking and crying when this happens. There's a family bond with orcas that we can't even understand as humans because they have a whole different part of their brain that is a sense of community and family that we don't even have. They literally have a different part of the brain that is just for this. So we know enough to know this about them, and we know that after five decades, this is torture for them.

And the only thing I can really do without being a really big pain in the ass and annoying is just tell people and inform people, let them make their own decisions and hopefully they'll decide. SeaWorld is too expensive to watch something be miserable in a tank.

Yeah. Especially because there's other alternatives to seeing it. And I'm sorry. Go watch a documentary and show your child through a documentary. It's far more interesting and far more revealing than watching something be trained to do flips and tricks because you're starving them of food and they're now completely reliant upon a human being because that's not natural. That's not how they conduct themselves in the wild. So at least have a true, wild, authentic experience versus what you're getting at a place like SeaWorld. I think the best idea I've heard in a long time is us starting a foundation.

Yeah, that too. Well, we have a few ideas.

I mean, we also have a deep love of. Well, of all animals, but horses. We bonded over horses for a very long time. We still do. We both do rescue work with horses. I just rescued two. One's got cancer in one eye. Has to be taken out.

Yeah, that's unfortunate. But they do adapt. They do adapt. Especially if they have a buddy.

She found a buddy at the kilpin or her. Budy found her.

Yeah. So that helps keep them calm and secure.

And dogs. We have lots of conversations about dogs and how to help and especially with how. With high kill shelters. Yeah. I mean, we have a lot of fires in the oven right now. Yeah.

We have a lot of common interests and we kind of always have. And I think the ones we have cooking are kind of a culmination of all those things.

I would agree. Thank you.

Sure. Anytime.

Great.

No, I'm not anytime great.

I'll see you in like 2 hours.

Yeah.

Great.

Awesome. All right. Well, that's.

Let's be clear with Shannon Dougherty with special guest Holly Marie Combs. Love her. Love you guys. Thanks for listening. Kildare village will help make this Christmas unforgettable. From finding the perfect gift to watching it being unwrapped. From the office party to the Stevens day walk, from head to toe, from.

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It all starts at Kildare village. It's Christmas shopping, but better.

Walter Isaacson set out to write about a world changing genius in Elon Musk and found a man addicted to chaos and conspiracy.

I'm thinking it's idiotic to buy Twitter because he doesn't have a fingertip feel for social emotional networks.

The book launched a thousand hot takes, so I sat down with Isaacson to try to get past the noise.

I like the fact that people who say I'm not as tough on Musk as I should be are always using anecdotes from my book to show why we should be tough on Musk.

Join me Evan Ratliff for on Musk with Walter Isaacson. Listen on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Tune.

In to the new podcast stories from the village of nothing, much like easy listening, but for fiction. If you've overdosed on bad news, we invite you into a world where the glimmers of goodness in everyday life are all around you. I'm Katherine Nikolai, and I'm an architect of cozy come spend some time where everyone is welcome and the default is kindness. Listen, relax, enjoy. Listen to stories from the village of nothing much on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.