Megan McCain has entered the chat. Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to Megan McCain has entered the chat with me. Megan McCain, Merry Christmas. Just a few short days away. I love Christmas time. Today on the show, we have my friend Mo Kelly, who is the host of The Weeknight Show, Later with Mo Kelly on KFI AM 6:40 on iHeartRadio. My My friend Rameen Satuda, who is the editor of Variety magazine and the executive producer of Actors on Actors. Look, we are going to talk all things politics and news coming out, obviously. But I made a little news myself last week in regards to my old employer at The View. Some things were said about me on air that were very defamatory and compared me to Hunter Biden, who is currently under investigation for felony tax evasion, foreign lobbying, money laundering, foreign business dealings. He also has made pornography and had a very illicit and uncouth behavior in his personal life. I'll just leave it at that. You guys all know those things. I have no ill will towards Hunter Biden as a person. I do not know him, but I am nothing like him. I've never committed a crime in my life.

I have never touched a drug in my life. I lead a very straightforward life with my husband and two children in Virginia, and I'm very, very, very proud of the life and lifestyle I lead. I am also very, very happy in my life right now. I do not want to keep revisiting things with my former employer. I wish they would just stop naming me, stop talking about me, and move on. I have moved on a long time ago, but I have to talk about it when they continue to bring me up on their show. I'm going to be doing that with my friend, Ramine Satuda, also happened to write a book about the history of The View called Ladies Who Punch. It's serendipitous that he is about to come on. Aside from that, like I said, just in a really good place in my life. It took me a long time to get here. I went through a lot of sadness when I was working at The View, both personally and professionally. I really am just so grateful to my husband, my friends, my family, my agent, and my lawyer for helping me come out the other side and be able to do this work here on this podcast.

But it was not easy. I I just want to maintain the positive, happy place I'm in, enjoy the holidays, and move on from this. I really implore people to stop using me for publicity and to figure out a way to get it all on your own. I've never had a problem getting publicity all on my little own self. You can do it. You just have to be more creative than punching down and bullying people. And with that, let's get started. Welcome back to Megan McCain has entered the chat with me, Megan McCain. I am so excited for my next guest. I have known my next guest since I was 20 years old, and he was my very first editor in media. My friend, Rameen Satute is the Editor-in-Chief of Variety and the Executive Producer of Actors on Actors, which is incredible. I see all over the internet all the time, Rameen. I'm so happy to have you on my podcast. Thank you for taking time this morning.

I'm so excited to be able to enter the chat with you, Megan.

I first just want to start out with, I've known you since I was 20, and I know it's a little weird because you're a very serious, award-winning journalist, and you're the editor of this really major entertainment magazine. But I still think of me as your intern and you as my editor, and you're only two years older than me. We're very close in age.

Do you remember one of the first articles you wrote for Newsweek?

I think it was about lip gloss.

It was. Then Snakes on a Plane was coming out. You pitched a story on fashion. Was it snake derivative fashion? It was shoes. You said snake skin was very big that summer. When was this? This would have been 2000.

This is like 2005, 2004, 2005.

You did it, and all the other interns were like, Wow, Megan got her name in Newsweek. You were very, very fast. You got a lot of articles in Newsweek back then that summer.

I was not a political intern at Newsweek magazine. I will say, I think that smartly, the head editors at the time were like, She's not one of our serious political people. I remember all the Harvard and Yale guys were doing all the political stuff. But I actually, I think, not to toot my own horn, ended up having the most... Every intern wanted to get in the magazine because he wanted to be in print and see your name. I got a ton of pieces because I was back of the book with you, which means pop culture and culture and fashion. I had so much fun. I did get to interview some of the stars of Snakes on a Plane and talk about snake fashion and lip gloss and lots of just different pop culture things. I loved it, and it's still one of my favorite jobs.

You were always working on Saturdays as we were closing the magazine. You would call me and you'd be like, There's a typo on page six. I'm like, Oh, good. Let's fix that. You were always looking at the proofs on a Saturday and working with the staff, and you were very collaborative.

I loved it. That's our history. You have gone on to be so incredibly wildly successful. And we have to start out with this, and I just want to get this over with. But one of the things you're really successful for is you've written this best-selling book about my former show, The View, called Ladies Who Punch. It was a huge best-seller. It's a huge book, and it's all about people should go pick it up. I highly recommend it. And it's through your years of reporting on The View about the long, complicated, fascinating history of this show. And it's weird to be someone who is really good friends with the official The View biographer because we're friends, but you're also a really reputable source in this space. Last week on Thursday, when I was going to pick up my daughter from school with a giant Rudolf balloon and some gingerbread cookies because it was her last day of school, my phone starts exploding because the Currentview co-host, one of them, Anna Navarro, compared me to Hunter Biden on national television and said, Look, did Hunter Biden influence Petal on his last name? Yes, he did. So did half of Washington.

But people sitting at this table did it, too. I'm not talking about people currently at this table. It exploded on the internet because obviously she's referencing me. I was very upset, very angry, sent a big long tweet out saying, among other things, move on. It's been years, and also that this is liable-less. I just want to say really quickly, the things Hunter Biden is being accused of right now are very serious, and he may go to jail. It includes felony tax evasion, illegal foreign lobbying, money laundering, and other matters largely tied to his overseas business dealings. Very, very serious crimes. You've known me my entire adult life. Never been accused of a crime in my life, never touched a drug in my life, certainly never done anything that Hunter Biden has ever done. Why can't they quit me?

Well, I think, look, I started writing this book before you were a host on the show. I wrote this book many years ago. I started many years ago. It came out in 2019. I remember when you got on the show, I was happy for you and very excited for you. I remember how excited and happy you are. But The View does have a history of bringing in women to be on that show. And then when the women leave, if the women were successful on the show, such as Rosie O'Donnell, they can't really let that narrative go because it's good for ratings, it's interesting, there's tension. I don't think there's a lot of tension right now on the show with the current cast. I think maybe that dig was to try to recreate some of the ratings that you generated. They're now in the headlines as a result of you responding. But I also was a little confused because I don't understand. In the context of Hunter Biden, she was talking essentially about nepo babies. I don't really understand. I wasn't really sure what she was trying to say because the view is all about talking and reacting to the stories of the day.

Certainly, there's a lot going on right now in Washington, DC, and we're gearing up for another election. But I was a little confused as to what her argument was, other than just evoking you and maybe another co-host who was on at the time with you who had also a well-known father. But I was a little confused as to what the argument was.

I don't disagree. I don't want to spend, obviously, our whole interview on this, but I just want to take a few more moments because I made a lot of news over this over the weekend. It's really hard right now, and you know, because you're my friend, Miranda, who's here as my executive producer, is my friend as well. You guys both know my time at The View was not the happiest moments of my life, but it's also compounded with it wasn't just the show. My dad was dying. I had several miscarriages. It was the Trump years, and I felt like I was this avatar for people to hate President Trump and hate Republicans. It was a lot of energy funneled at me. I just didn't want to live that life anymore. I didn't want to be part of this, Yes, queen, throw shade. I hate you, talking point energy. I didn't like the culture. I don't like the mean girl culture. I knew I was having a daughter. I didn't think I was setting a good example for my daughter. It has taken me two years, basically, to find joy, peace, this happiness. I have two young children.

I'm living right outside Washington, DC, in this little village called Old Town. I'm happily married. The thing about the nepo baby, I'm like Hunter Biden, thing is, I am nothing like Hunter Biden, but I am the exception. A lot of nepo babies, particularly in politics, they struggle, they have addiction issues. There's a lot of darkness. I am very proud of the fact that I never went down that road, thank God, for a lot of different reasons. I feel like no matter what life I live, no matter how much joy I find, no matter what I do with my life, I am still going to be used in this way by a national television show. It is very hard, and it feels very bullying and very abusive, and I don't know how to get them to stop. Do you have anything to say?

I was just thinking, Roger Ebert, you saw the film critic, Roger Ebert, who passed away, he used to always say when he would review movies that nepotism gives people the opportunity to be in Hollywood. You get the opportunity, but then once you get in the door, you have to prove yourself based on your own talents and skills. This was way back when, this is 20 years ago and before the term nepo baby had been coined. But he was always in defense of talent that would come up on their own because he would say it's the opportunity, but then they have to stand on their own two feet, which I think you've more than done. I think you've also been very open about the privilege that you've had and the opportunities that you've had as a result of your family. Certainly. But what I will say is, and my question, I guess, for you is, do you think that your time on the show was shaped by the fact that you were a Republican? Because there were only really two Republicans in the history of The View, Elizabeth and you, that stood up to the other panelists and actually said what they wanted and what they believed in their heart.

I think that maybe made that particularly hard for you during the Trump years because there was so much going on in the news.

Yes. I think my politics are still covering a lot of this. It's interesting because Anna Novaro claims to be a Republican, but she is a literal surrogate for the Biden campaign and Biden people. I don't love bringing her up because it just feels reductive. But the only way Did she get along when you were on the show? No. But it's history from before she... I have a lot of long history with Anna Novaro that goes way back because she was dating a funder of my dad's campaign and then She's joined the campaign, I guess. I have no memory of her ever working on my dad's campaign, but she claims to. By the way, I'm just going to say one final thing. Nobody has trafficked on the McCain last name and legacy more than Anna Navarro because she throws around the fact that she worked for my dad and knew my dad, I mean, all day long. And again, pull the receipts.

She also was trying to be... She wanted to be the conservative co-host of The View when you were selected, and then there was a rotating situation, right? So she would come in on Fridays. Is that right?

Yes, she came in on Fridays. Look, none of these women were my best friends. I didn't go there to make friends. This is well-documented. I just want to know because it's been a year anniversary of the late great Barbara Walter's death. I keep I'm thinking there was actually a New York Times article that came out, I think a year ago, six months ago, something like that. That was talking about how the current incarnation of the view is not what her desire was, meaning it's just one view, and it's one person. It's quite of like, I think the youngest The person on the show is 50. It's a very old show.

I think Alyssa is younger than 50.

Who is that? That's the person who replaced me. Sorry. Yes. Okay. All right. Well, the majority of the show is 50 or older, and then much, much older. It doesn't really matter. My concern is, am I ever going to get to live a life where this stops, where any of this ever ends?

I think that eventually... They did this with Rosie O'Donnell, where she would continue to come on the show, and then eventually, I think time passes and there's new co-hosts that come on. I think that maybe the reason you're continually referenced is because there isn't as much friction on the show. But I wanted to actually end this views part with a happy memory interview. I think that I remember one year, it was around the holidays, it was Christmas time, and I think Obama was President, and Barbara Walgers was asked Elizabeth Hasselbach if she watched the President speak last night. Elizabeth said, You know the story, Elizabeth said that she didn't because she was wrapping presence. And Barbara said, So was I. You and I talked about this, and it was an inside joke with us because it was so funny because Barbara obviously wasn't sitting at home watching the present speak, wrapping presence. But she walked that line where she was trying to be the every woman, but also the most famous female broadcaster in news history. I just remember her being like, So was I. I was wrapping presents, too. She always really tried to do everything and was proof that maybe you couldn't do everything because she put her career over everything else.

But I just remember that, particularly around the holidays. I was looking for the clip on YouTube and I couldn't find it, but it's one of my favorite interactions on The View.

We laughed about it because, again, it was just absurd that Barbara Walters would be wrapping her own Christmas presents because she's Barbara Walters. We were always like, So is I. So It is a very funny memory. Again, she's a fascinating, complicated woman as well. My last question for you on this topic is, would you write another book? Would you write a sequel about it?

People have asked me that. I think that I will one day update the with maybe some more chapters, but I don't know if there's enough for an entire sequel because I think what made the show so powerful and important and interesting was Barbara's presence and Barbara as a character on the show. I think that in the current iteration and in the way in which media is fragmented, which we're going to talk about in a little bit, I don't know if there's enough for another 300 pages, but I do think there's definitely enough for a few more chapters.

For maybe another 50. Maybe another 30. Maybe another 50 pages. I do want to We're going to move on to, as you said, there's so much going on in media, and you are the king of media. You said it was the year of girl power for Hollywood. Can you explain why?

It was. So the number one movie this year was Barbie, directed by Greta Gerwig and starring Margot Robbie. It made close to $1.5 billion worldwide, blew everything else out of the water. People were dressing up as Barbie, and then it inspired the whole Barbenheimer phase of the movies where people were going to go see Barbie and then also Oppenheimer. It was also a really big year on the concert front. We had Taylor Swift's Ares Tour, grossing a billion dollars. We had Beyoncé's Renaissance Tour. We had Ciz's The SOS Tour. And recently, I went and saw Madonna over the weekend at the Celebration Tour.

Okay, can you tell me about seeing Madonna live? Because she's getting a lot of attention right now. She did something last night in Brooklyn where she was yelling at Andy Cohen not to be a, I believe she said, messy queen. She loved it. Or trouble-making queen. She loved it. She loved it because he loved it. He loved it.

He loved the attention.

I would love it if Madonna did that to me. But she's getting ashamed for her age, that she's too old to be on tour despite the fact that the Rolling Stones are on tour and they're 100. Why do you think she's getting so much heat?

I don't think it's that she's being ashamed for age. I think she's being ashamed for not showing up on time. When I went and saw her in Brooklyn, we got there at 8:30. I took my mom because I had two tickets. I took my mom. I thought it'd be a fun activity for her. Madonna didn't show up until 10:45. That was the beginning of the concert.

When you're watching Taylor Swift eras, that's the end.

She's entering into the final era, and Madonna didn't take the stage till close to 11 o'clock at night. She was performing till 1:00. I mean, it's incredible that she was able to do it and was able to stay up so late, but people were falling asleep. New York is no longer the city that never sleeps. I think, to me, all the headlines in the last few days, she's always been infamous for being very, very late, but we're in a different time where people do go to bed in New York. I saw the New York Times book critic, I think, wrote on Twitter the other night. She went to see the show, and it was starting so late, she left. There was a second where I was like, Should I leave? Because it was getting late and people were tired and the energy wasn't there. What I would say to Madonna as she's going into the US part of the tour is, I know back in the day it was cool to be very late and make people wait, but just start at 9:00 or 9:30. Starting a show at 10:45, it doesn't seem like a good thing for your audience.

I 100% would have gone home. And good on your mom.

I would have slowly seen you gone home. But you love Madonna.

I remember you said that when you were in high school, you thought it was- You and I went to see Madonna a while ago.

Which show did we see?

Was it Confessions? Confessions on a Dance floor? Confessions on a Dance floor, yeah.

I remember that. I think that's the best Madonna tour I've ever seen.

We saw it at Madison Square Garden. Yes, she was amazing.

I totally forgot that we went and saw it together. I remember that tour.

Have you seen Taylor Swift and Beyoncé?

I've seen all four of the tours that I mentioned. Sizza, Taylor Swift, Beyoncé, and Madonna.

Do you have a favorite? Is that too hard?

It's hard. People get upset when you compare them. Even on Twitter, if you mention them all, people will get upset because they all have such strong fandoms. I think that the three tours that I mentioned are so defining and genre-defining in their own way, and they've clearly been the biggest tours of the year. I think for Taylor, what's so interesting and what's so inspiring watching that is the stamina that she has to perform for three and a half hours. It's incredible. You're like, How are you a human being and able to do this? Beyoncé, for me, the best part of her tour was in the beginning when she was singing the ballads. It was really incredible hearing her vocally. Then as she reemerges and she does I'd seen a lot of it on Twitter, so some of it wasn't as surprising to me, but being around the energy and the joy and the happiness that she inspired. I think Oprah was there the day that I saw her in New Jersey. Both of those are two of the best tour experiences that I've ever seen. Then with Sissa, it's really exciting because it feels like she's the next big thing in music, and you feel that on the ground watching her perform.

Taylor Swift was the biggest concert of all time, a billion dollars in history and counting, which is unfathomable. We've all lived through this year of Taylor Swift with her. People just feel like it was almost like a religious experience to go to her concert. She's a Time magazine's person of the Year. I was having a conversation with my girlfriend yesterday that We just don't know where you could possibly go from here if you're Taylor Swift. Where do you go if you have the biggest selling concert of all time and you're the person of the year? Do you just do another tour at another point that makes $2 billion? Is there a concern with oversaturation? Is her fan base just so intense and so excited about her that they'll just... Nothing matters. I'm a little past the Taylor Swift fan age. It's not that I'm not a fan I am, but I'm 39, and she's younger than me. I'm more like a Lady Gaga cult person, if that makes sense.

Anyway- I love Lady Gaga, and I saw the chromatica ball. To me, the Kromatica Ball is one of the greatest experiences I've ever had watching someone perform. I think with Taylor, so she's going to keep doing eras through 2024. It's hit a billion. They think maybe it could even hit two billion, although some of the projections are varying. She changes the economy in the cities that she visits. We know that world leaders have been tweeting at her, asking her to come to their cities or their countries. She's definitely been the story of the year. Personally, what I think will happen is I think she will finish the remainder of her tour, and then I think she's going to go away for a little bit. Then she's going to have to reemerge in a different era. She's going to have to in a different era and reinvent herself again, which she's done. But I thought, did you ever see the documentary on her?

Yeah, it was fascinating.

I thought it was really interesting because she acknowledged that there's a very finite time in which you can be in the public eye as a woman. She seemed to understand that and accept that. She thought that maybe this would be over in a few years, which it clearly hasn't been. I don't know if it ever will be because people have compared her to Elvis or the Beatles, and she's a once-in-a-generation spanning artist. But I think I think that she's aware that she only has a certain finite amount of time to be this famous, and I think she's trying to make the most of it. I think personally, she does hope or look forward to a life where she maybe makes music that's a little smaller, as you can see with some of her recent albums that she's doing. They're not as poppy or as big or as stadium-toury, although she performs them in a stadium and people love them.

No, I mean, she's a fascinating American icon for a lot of different reasons. I I give props to her in so many different ways. I just also am like, I could go a day without Taylor Swift news. I could go 24 hours. I feel like it's just constant stuff about her. Maybe people get oversaturated, maybe they won't. I don't know. But I do want to move on to movies because it's Christmas time. People aren't going to movies in the same way that they used to. There's a lot of really interesting movies out. Poor Things, Maestro, but I understand you can watch Maestro on Netflix, too. On Netflix, yeah.

I think you would want to see that movie in a movie theater. It's hard because some of these movies are on Netflix, but Maestro is a movie that I think you'd want to see. I saw it in a movie theater and I loved it.

Okay, tell me what you tell our audience listening. People, get a babysitter, go see this specific movie or just like, this is a movie that's worth your time to go see over at Christmas, the ones you would recommend.

Okay, so Poor Things stars Emma Stone. She collaborates with Yorgos Lanthamos, who she made the favorite with. That was a small Oscar movie that came out a few years ago. Olivia Coleman won the Oscar for best actress that year. It was like a Victorian drama that had a very dark ending. This is a very dark, strange movie. I've been explaining to people, and it's a very auteur-driven film. So if you're looking for something mainstream or fun to go see with the family, this is a hard, R-rated film, and it's something maybe you would go and see with your friends if you're looking for something very, very different.

Is Emma Stone going to win an Oscar for it?

People think that she could win her second Oscar. She won her first Oscar for La La Land. It's either between I think, Emma Stone and Lily Gladstone, who's the star of the Martin Scorsese movie, Killers of the Flower Moon.

Okay, so I tried to watch that, and it is so long, and I couldn't get through it. That is no disrespect to Martin Scorsese or the film. I just, I don't know, man. I've got a short attention span and two young kids.

Did you see it in Apple?

No, I tried to watch it on my computer.

See, that's the problem with a lot of these movies. These directors are so celebrated and respected. But then when they make a movie for streaming, I don't know what the experience of seeing Killers of the Flower Moon would be at home. But I saw it in a movie theater at the Cannes Film Festival, and it was a beautiful cinematic experience. It's three and a half hours long, so you really have to clear out your whole afternoon or your whole evening to see it. But for me, it was great filmmaking. But I don't know how it would play because I didn't watch it again on a computer. I don't think that that is the movie that was made to be watched on a computer.

Is there any other movie out right now that you just highly recommend be a great Christmas movie for people to see?

The other movie we talked about, Bradley Cooper's movie.

Maestro, right?

Maestro, yeah. He plays Leonard Bernstein, the famous composer who composed West Side Story and worked in one of the most famous composers of all time. It is a really transcendent performance. I think he's the front runner to win the Oscar. He's been nominated four other times for acting. This will be his fifth nomination for acting, and he's fantastic in it. Kerry Mulgan, who plays his wife, is also incredible in it. He's a closeted, bisexual man It's not really like he's struggling with his identity because he knows who he is, but you see how he explores that as he's trying to make his way professionally and personally with his wife and his kids. And it's... Reilly Cooper is just such a great director. He made a star is born, which I also really love. And I think that he is the real deal. And a lot of actors want to direct, but he's a real director.

He's fantastic. What is the indie movie you told me to see that's about a couple, a woman reuniting with an ex-boyfriend? What is it called again? I apologize.

It's called It's called Pass Lives. Pass Lives.

It's a lean song.

It is my favorite movie of the year. A24 released it over the summer. It's now available on streaming. I highly, highly recommend it. It's beautiful love story set in New York. It's a very small independent film, but really, really, it's the best movie I've seen this year.

I am 100% going to watch Pass Lives over Christmas break. My last question for you regarding movies is, Saltburn is getting a lot of buzz just in my life with my friends that I've been texting quite a few have seen it. There's a little bit of controversy, though, because I guess it's very sexually graphic, which whatever. But also that the director, I think her name is Emerald Fennel. Is that correct? She's also getting some controversy for it. Do you recommend this movie? And do you understand why there has been a lot of heated criticism against her directing? Or is it just plain old-fashioned misogyny?

I think it's a divisive film because it alludes to the talented Mr. Ripley and is similar in vain and to that, but it also then diverges from that. I think that people... Her first movie was called Promising Young Women, star Carole and Mulligan, and that was also... Some people loved it, some people didn't really quite... It didn't work for them. I think that she makes art that is open to interpretation, and some people really love her work, and some people aren't there for it, which is fine as part of being an artist. But this is a weaker movie than her first movie. I don't think it's misogyny. I just think that this is maybe a film that doesn't stick the landing for a lot of people. And so there's been some conversation about that. But when you have Greta Gerwig as the biggest, most famous director of the year for Making Barbie, it does seem like things are hopefully changing for women directors in Hollywood. And it's an exciting time. Post-covid, people went back to the movies, and that's the exciting thing for the entertainment industry and for Hollywood at large.

Was the wildest story for you to cover this year, Don't Worry, Darling, and Olivia Wilde, the director dating her star, Harry Style, because I feel like I was working at the Daily Meal at the time. That story just had legs for months. Because it was so dishy and juicy. The main star of the movie, Florence Pew, it seemed like she didn't like Olivia Wilde at all. What was that story to cover for you? Because I know you were actually at Cannes when they premiered it.

That was last year when I was at Venice when they premiered.

Venice, I'm sorry.

It was for Don't Worry, Darling. It was super awkward. You know what it felt like? Not to go back to the view, but you know how on the view, you go in to do a job and then you become part of this media narrative and then you feel like you're acting out a on a reality show. Sure. I think that Olivia Wilde felt that in making this film because she made this film with her boyfriend at the time, Harry Stiles, and Florence Pew, for whatever reason, stopped talking to her and was very public about it and would leave all these clues. It was just this crazy media circus, very strange situation. I rarely see anything like that. I haven't seen anything like that since, where often a cast won't get along, but they'll pretend to get along. In this case, you had an actor in a movie not talking to her own director and being very public about it, but not explaining what had happened. People were trying to guess and trying to glean clues, and they were putting their own spin on things, and it just really got out of hand, and people stopped paying attention or talking about the movie, and they were just so fascinated by what the dynamic was behind the scenes.

I personally didn't like that movie at all, for whatever that's worth. But I want to move on to television because I think we are just personally living in the golden age of television. The Golden Globe nominations came out recently, and succession is just every actor, everything nominated for everything. I love Succession, The Last of Us with Pedro Pascal. I watched every single episode of that show. A zombie show. Yeah, they turned into zombies. Fantastic HBO. House of the Dragon. Incredible. Just amazing premiere. See, I love these shows. I can watch them at night on Sundays and watch it in my pajamas and all these things. Are you surprised?

White Lotus Season 2.

Sorry, didn't know. White Lotus, yes.

White Lotus Season 2 with Jennifer Coolidge. Even though that came out last year, They postpone the Emmies because of the actor strike. The Emmies aren't going to be until September. The Emmies are normally in September, but they're not going to be until January. You're going to have the Golden Globes, and then you're going to have the Emmies in January. You're going to see some of these great shows that you really love. You're going to see the cast where night and hopefully win some prizes. But yeah, sorry, I interrupted your question.

Oh, no. I was going to ask you, can anyone compete with Succession? Because it just seems like it's a critical darling, and people are obsessed with it, myself included.

I think that Succession is going to win everything in this last stretch for its last season. It felt like a genre-defining show like The Sopranos or Breaking Bad. It's in a league of its own. I think a lot of people wish that it went on for one more season. I still remember what it was like watching the finale, and then I remember rewatching it again, almost right after it was over because it was so good. Then when Logan died, it was such a phenomenal season, and the acting was on a different level. I think it's going to win everything.

Do you think he killed himself at the end?

No, I think he still alive. But I think he's just sulking in the dark in New York, feeling really, really bad for himself. What do you think?

I thought he killed himself, but it's open for interpretation. I just ruined the ending.

Do you think he jumps into the water?

I thought maybe he jumped into the water. Jeremy Strong. Yeah, Jeremy Strong, I thought. By the way, Jeremy Strong is another person that I felt like the media was so unfair to. I was like, he is a... For people that haven't been paying attention, there were just a bunch of nasty articles and profiles written of him because I guess he's a meta-character actor and he's a little eccentric, but I was like, I don't care. He's playing one of the greatest roles on television ever, and I'm wildly entertained by it. Leave him alone.

It's a very interesting time because Jeremy Strong did his long-form interview with The New Yorker. In the piece, which was thousands of words long. There was a lot of nuance about how method he was and how his co-stars respected him, but it was tedious for them sometimes to be around someone who was so method. I don't think if you read the full piece, you would think that the writer where Michael Schulman was trying to be mean to Jeremy Strong. He was just trying to capture an actor and his process. Then because of social media and the way in which we digest things, there were a lot of headlines that made it seem like Jeremy Strong is a bad person as a result of being a method actor. Then a lot of actors like Jessica Chastain and Anne Hathaway started defending him. It's like this media fishbowl where it's like you go in a circle, in a circle, in a circle, but people need to read, I think, the original article. He is intense. He is a method actor. I think it was hard on some of his cast. But he also agreed to do a long story with The New Yorker.

As a journalist, I think I look at it a little differently. I think that it was fair.

I would never give a long story access to it. I remember reading it being like, Why do you invite this journalist to his house?

It was great. He spent days with the journalist. If you're really open, you're opening your life to someone, you're opening people up to interpretation for the way in which you work. If you don't want to be written about, don't do interviews. There are people that don't do interviews. It's annoying for journalists like me because I want the story and I want to profile interesting people. But if you're not interested in being in the public discussion or having anyone know about your process, then if you do an interview, then people are going to talk about you.

I totally agree. Speaking of doing interviews, do you have a favorite interview that you conducted this year or one I think you were just like, Wow, I really got a lot of interesting content, interesting perspective from this person or these people? Do you have a favorite of 2023?

I think my favorite moment for Variety this year was when... Well, there were two. One is when we had Ellen Pompeo and Katherine Heigl reunited.

Yes, that was so good.

We did that on video last summer. I was waiting for two years for this moment to happen. I was asking her team. She was not really interested. She, I think, had been even invited to return to Grey's Anatomy, and she didn't want to go back to that part of her life. But I think the timing was right. She had her own show. It was called Firefly Lane that was on Netflix, and Ellen Pompeo was leaving Grey's Anatomy. So getting the two of them together was really exciting for me. Being in the room when that happened was really exciting for me because I was someone who loved Grey's Anatomy in my 20s. I think you did, too, right? Oh, yeah. I used to watch it and talk about it. It was such a huge show. I mean, talk about TV and the influence of TV. That was a show that it felt like the entire country would be watching what Shonda Rimes was doing. And then on Mondays, you would all unpack what happened in the OR, who blew up, or who was dating who. I mean, it was just such an influential show. I think Katherine Heigl was someone who lost control of the narrative in the media because she was very outspoken and people picked on her and went after her.

Were they emotional backstage? Or off camera? I don't know if you can reveal that. Because I can imagine because there is just so much directed at those two women. There's a lot of things channeled at Ellen Pompeo and Katherine Heigl that they don't deserve. They're both strong women who have strong opinions. I agree. I've always felt bad for the way Katherine Heigl has been treated by people.

She's a good actress. She was in Knocked Up, and she made knocked up work. That was a movie that I think made a lot of money and people loved it. She was the comedic force that went toe to toe with Seth Rogen at the time, who was a big movie star. She had such screen presence. If she was a man, I think she would have had a very different career. I think that the industry, particularly in the early 2000s, it was very, very hard to be a leading lady, which is why, going back to Taylor Swift, she made that statement in the documentary that her time is finite. Her time in the public eye is finite because you actually aren't allowed unlimited time in the public eye as a woman because people want to take you down and eventually do.

It's true. You executive produce Actors on Actors, which just has, it seems like billions of views. How do you choose the Actors on Actors? Because it's so popular and the combination of people is always so fun to see where you guys land.

So it's extraordinarily difficult, very, very fun, but very difficult to find all the right pairings and then making sure that sometimes someone's schedule won't be so they won't be available on the right day, so you have to find a different person. But I always describe it as you're trying to set up the most famous people in the world to have conversations. Sometimes I'll suggest something. I suggested the Katherine Heigl-Elon Pompeo pairing several years ago. It wasn't quite right for Katherine Heigl at the time. But then they'll come back and be like, Well, what about this person? The person that they want maybe isn't as interesting. It's a balancing act, and it takes a lot of time, but it's a lot of It's been really exciting this year as we've been unveiling the lineups. People have been so supportive and excited. As soon as they go up on YouTube, people watch them. We have had millions and millions of views and millions and millions more on TikTok. It's been a really big conversation around the holiday. Someone actually was like, It's like the Barbara Walters Oscar special, which to me was the biggest compliment of all because you know how much I love Barbara Walters.

But it's been a really fun experience watching this franchise continue to grow.

I think I like it so much because the actors that are doing it, they seem very vulnerable with each other. I feel like there's a lot of conversations that happen that wouldn't necessarily happen with just, I don't know, a press junket or something like that. I don't know. It's highly entertaining. I watch them all. Thank you very much. I have to ask you, Variety just hosted an event for reality television stars, which I thought was really interesting because, again, Variety is such a premiere, like a flagship publication. We're talking about Oscar-winning actors, doing actors on actors conversations for you, but then you're also honoring reality television. Why did you choose to have that event? Do you think entertainment is changing to the point where reality television stars are going to start getting props in the way that they didn't? I mean, you had like J-WOW from Jersey Shore on stage doing a panel, and I love her, and I love the Jersey Shore, but she's not normally doing things as prestigious as that.

That's a very good question. I think we did the event because there's such an appetite and interest in reality TV. It's not like reality TV is a new genre by any stretch of the imagination, but I do think the legitimacy of reality TV is real. The business of reality TV is real. When you have reality TV personalities like Bethany Frankl making hundreds of millions of dollars with her skinny margarita line, when you have all the different businesses that are happening, all the different ways in which people are influencing culture and conversation through reality TV, and BravoCon being a huge business in Las Vegas this year. We wanted to do something to honor that and respect that. At Variety, we cover It's all entertainment. Reality TV is a big part of that. I think you watch a lot of reality TV. All my friends watch a lot of reality TV. I think in terms of your question about whether or not people are going to see it in a different way, I think that there are always the breakthrough stars. Look, Elizabeth Hazzelback came from survivor and then join the view. There's always the breakthrough stars, but I also think that it's okay for reality TV to be its own thing.

It's a very successful thing. Why should we judge a reality TV star's success by whether or not they can act in TV shows. Kim Kardashian was on American Horror Story this year, but that's not what she will be known for. She's known for who she is on her own reality show.

Well, I was actually going to ask you about the Kardashian's because I can assume a lot of reality television. I really enjoy it. I find it great escapism. There's a lot of good stuff on Bravo. I used to watch the Kardashian's. I really tried to get into their Hulu show, but I don't like it. It's not like a knock on the women because, again, I don't have a problem with the Kardashian's. It doesn't feel... I don't know if authentic is the right word. It It doesn't feel like raw. There's not a lot of great drama. They always look- Do you mean drones?

You're right. There's something about it that feels like it's trying to be a Michael Bay movie. Yes. You just want to sit in the Kardashian's living room and hear what they have to say.

Yeah. Is that the response of other people as well? Is there an audience feeling like it's just, I'm just not as interested in them, and I don't really know why?

Do you think that it has to do with the fact that it's streaming and not on E? Because there was something about, and it was the same for Chelsea Handler, there was something about being on TV, if you're at the gym or wherever and you just turn it on, you'll watch an episode of Keeping Up with the Kardashian's. But I don't know. I think the mindset sometimes for streaming is a little different. With streaming, you have to intentionally have purpose and want to watch the Kardashian's versus I feel like when it was on E, it would just be on and you would watch it because it was on.

I'm going to tell you something that may sound a little weird, so just bear with me.

You don't have E.

I don't have E anymore. I'm a cord cutter, but does anybody have E anymore? No disrespect. I know the platform's not... The channel's not doing that well anymore. I still have E, but I think he does. Okay, you're the head editor of a variety. Of course, you still have E. This is the thing. Everything in their show is beige and cream and there's no color at all in it. There's something about their house looking like a cement... Their house is looking like cement, California prisons. It's very bland to watch, even if there's drama. It's a bland show. There's Some of my favorite real housewives, it's like colorful, messy drama. That's what I'm looking for because, quite frankly, the world is very bland right now and sad and dark. Their houses really make me uncomfortable. I know that sounds very strange, but Kim Kardashian's house looks like a high-end prison.

It's like a fortress, and you can't relate to them anymore because they've become so famous. The whole appeal of the Kardashian's was that they felt like someone you'd know, and they did a very good job of, even as they became more wealthy, of still having the relatability. But I think what you're saying is that when you see their mansions now, it doesn't seem like someone you'd want to hang out with.

No, I do not want to hang out with Kardashian's at all, which is fascinating. Again, I've met Kim a few times. She's been so lovely. I don't have a problem with them, whatever. But I have no desire to hang out with the Kardashian. I actually think they'd make me feel bad about myself because I haven't had any plastic surgery at all. I feel like I just feel like a fat, dried-out husk around them, and I don't want to feel like that. There you go. We're closing in on time, I know. I need to ask you, what are you looking forward to in 2024 with variety? Who are the rising stars I should look out for? Any exciting movies, television? What's that high point going into 2024? Then I actually do have one more question after that. Sorry.

I think that the big stars of next year are going to be Timothée Chalmet and Zendeya. Oh, yeah, Zendeya. You already can see Timothée being in Wanka, which it made $39 million. Over the weekend, people think it's going to be a holiday movie as we continue into Christmas.

My daughter really wants to see it.

Does she sit through movies all the way through?

She does.

In the movie theater now? Mm-hmm.

She's seen the Trolls movie twice. Don't judge me. My husband likes taking her to the movies. She really loves movies and it just is what it is. I know all the cord-cutting parents out there judge away, but we are a media family.

I remember the first movie I ever saw was the Sesame Street Big Bird on the Road. Yes. You know what I'm talking about? The Big Bird goes blue. I remember my parents say that I started crying when Big Bird went blue. I think I remember crying, but they also talked about a lot, so I might be remembering their stories. I remember sitting in a movie theater in the seat and the magic and having the popcorn. It's its own thing. It's a singular experience. You can't really replicate that at home. It's different at home when there's stuff happening and lights are on and your parents are running around. There's just something to be said of sitting in a movie theater and watching a movie with an audience and having that communal experience as a kid. I remember the big movies that I saw with my family and how How much I love that. I think that Timothée Chalmet is in Wanka. He's also in Dune with Zendaya, which a lot of people are really excited about. Then Zendaya is also in this movie called Challenges, which was supposed to come out this year but didn't because the actor strike and I saw it.

It's incredible. What's it about? Luca Guadalina, who directed Call Me By Your Name, and she plays as tennis coach. She's a former tennis star that becomes a tennis coach, and she's married to one star tennis player. There's this love triangle and Josh O'Connor's in it. It's a really great, thrilling movie. It's called Challenges. It comes out, I think, in March from Amazon and MGM.

What's your least favorite, most disappointing?

Mike Weist is the third person in Love Triangle, I should say. It's her and these two guys that she's loved throughout her life.

What's my- What's your most disappointing movie you saw this year? You had high expectations you didn't like.

We did a list of the worst movies of the year, and everyone got so mad about it on Twitter. It's interesting because every magazine used to do that. People on Twitter really pushed back, and they said, People work hard on movies, and they make movies, and you shouldn't make them worse.

For God's sake. There's some bad movies that come out. What was the list?

Our two critics had their list, and I think the Wes Anderson movie is on there.

I hated that movie.

I don't like that movie.

It wasn't for me. I love Wes Anderson. I was like, What is this? And what was Astro City? Take a big pass on that was awful. I agree with your critics. My last question for you is, you and I both love Chuck E. Cheese. You went to Chuck E. Cheese as a kid. I still take my girls to Chuck E. Cheese. Why has this entertainment rat casino for children lasted generationally? And why do we still have fun, affectionate memories for it?

We're going to start with Chuckie Cheese. Actually, we originally were going to- I should have started with Chuckie Cheese. We were going to start with Chuckie Cheese because I was so excited to talk about Chuckie Cheese. I just remember, I think that it was my first exposure as a little kid to show business as cheesy as that sounds. So You'd go and you see the animatronic figures singing, and you have pizza and the salad and whatever, and the tokens and the ball pit and all the tickets. I don't know. It was a magical thing to go to Chuckie Cheese as a kid. I wanted to ask you, when you take your daughters to Chuckie Cheese? Does it remind you of going there as a kid yourself?

Yes. I also have to tell you whenever I post on my Instagram stories that I'm at Chuckie Cheese, I get so many messages of people being like, I want to go. Adult friends of mine, I want to go. Number one, they serve wine, which is nice. Number two, the pizza is very good. Number three, my daughter goes just apeshit. She loves it. Same thing. There's not a ball pit anymore. There's a jumping 10. I can't explain.

They just have to close down the ball pits because someone would have an accent. Remember, my sister and I got a little bad in here. We got to get out of the ball pit.

They still do a great job. I'm very grateful for Chuck E. Cheese, and I'm glad that we still share that bond. I'm also glad that you took time to come out today and do the podcast. I love you so much. I'm so, so proud of you and all the work you do. You're just such an amazing innovator, iconoclast. You're just an incredible editor. Variety is so lucky to have you. Every time you just do in a world full of bland, boring Kardashian houses, you just do the most innovative, interesting, compelling work. I'm so proud of you.

Oh, thank you, Megan. Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas. Thank you very much. Are you going to be wrapping presents?

So is I.

So is I.

Thank you so much for continuing to listen to Megan McCain has entered the chat with me, Megan McCain. My next guest is just one of the greats. Mo Kelly is a radio and television commentator and host of The Weeknight Show, Later with Mo Kelly on KFI AM 6:40 and iHeartRadio. I've known Mo Kelly a very long time. You are one of my favorite hosts use, political analysts, commentators. I love your work, and I'm just so happy you took the time to come talk to me right now.

I am so humbled and overjoyed to be able to talk to you because I think of you as my friend, first and foremost. We have a special relationship. We talk about things off the air which are mostly non-political. We just have a genuine rapport, and I appreciate that. Let me just say publicly, I thank you for counseling me and helping me with the passing of my father. That's how you know when you have an actual friend, someone who's there when the lights are off, when the mics are not open, and is just there as someone to just help you emotionally and spiritually.

Yes, you are my friend as well, and we share that very dark bond of losing a father, and I have shared a lot with you as well, and I just adore you. So thank you, and thank you for your friendship. Again, and also, like your show, I listen to it You're just doing such amazing work, and I think you're one of the true independents out there, and that's a hard thing to find. That's actually a hard thing to find in media.

For me, it's easy because you understand this just being a professional. You have to be authentic. You have to be true to yourself. For me, I'm a registered independent. I don't donate to politicians, and I don't endorse politicians because I want to stay in a place where I'm not tied to any politician or any party, so I'm free to just call balls and strikes. Now, I may have my personal issues that I feel are important to me, but I don't use my seating media as a place of advocacy in a political sense. I feel I can sleep better at night in that regard. What other people do, that's their business. But for me, I want to stay in a place of authenticity. The only way that I can do that is to be sure that I have no tie, emotional or otherwise, to these politicians or elected officials which then allows me to freely critique and also cover them.

Well, I want to get into politics a little bit for you and for people that don't know you're based in Los Angeles, California. This is, for me, a very dark time in politics, and there's a lot of division, and this election has been very uninspiring to cover so far. Have you had a hard time on your show at all or with your audience feeling this fatigue? With the content that you have to cover, how have dealt with, again, just how depressing so much of it is?

It is depressing. I would call it a political malaise, where we're almost sick of it. It doesn't matter where your political preferences lie. I think a reasonable person is tired of the banter, the tired of the back and forth on Capitol Hill and not getting things done on either side of the aisle. I hate the both sides thing, but I think our government is broken right now. We can't function. You are savvy enough, and I would, let me say gracefully, old enough to know there was a time in which our government functioned. There might have been political acrimony, but it functioned. I mean, long gone are the days of having a speaker of the House, Tip O'Neill, and a President, Ronald Reagan, disagree vehemently on the politics and the policy, but we're able to agree enough to move the country forward. We don't have policy debates anymore, unfortunately. I yearn for the time in which we can get back to that and then just work. If we could get the easy ones right and then work out the hard stuff, then I think we'll be in a better place. But that just seems so far and foreign to where we are right now.

Well, when you and I first met, again, this is, gosh, 2014. I mean, 2013, 2014, a very long time ago when I was working at KFI as well in Los Angeles. I can remember because you're hosting a show. I was hosting a show. You came on my show all the time. We did a lot of work together. There was this absurdity covering Trump. This was right when Trump was coming up and then nominated. Then obviously, after the election. But there was still this, Oh, my gosh, this is so great. Can you believe this is happening, Mo, attitude? It was still there was a level of humor in it. Can remember laughing with you a lot. Now I don't think it's as funny anymore. I have a harder time finding the humor in any of this. Do you feel that as well?

Oh, absolutely. When Donald Trump first came on the scene, and I want to go back to 2000 when he had a real quick an independent run, it wasn't even a third party run. It didn't go where people never really considered him a serious presidential candidate. Now, I think Donald Trump always toy with the idea, but I don't think the general populace took it seriously because he was a media figure. He was a real estate magnate, not someone who was actually pursuing politics. When he came down that escalator in 2015, I don't know how many people really thought that he was trying to win. I thought that he was trying to win a TV show The next TV show, because we know that not everyone is actually running for president, and I can call names. Vivek Rava Swamy is not running for president. He's running for a TV show right now. He's auditioning.

He just wants to be a Fox contributor, clearly.

Yes. He's not actually trying to leader of the free world. That's what I thought Donald Trump was trying to do at that point, further build his brand, expand his opportunities in a merchandising sense with the make America great again hats. But I didn't think he was trying to be president, but enough Americans in different electoral districts in different states thought that he was and elected him president. What makes me sad is that When he became president, it's a far cry from what he's presenting and offering right now. For me, it's beyond sadness.

It's beyond sadness for me, and I'm still trying to have little pockets of hope. One of the things I'm sure you're talking about is that there's this new CBS poll that's everywhere that shows that Nikki Haley is actually doing better than anyone else expected in New Hampshire. Trump is at 44% and she is at 29%, poor DeSantis is at 11%, but the same poll It also shows in Iowa that DeSantis is at 22% and Haley is at 13%. Look, 44 to 29 is still losing by a significant amount. Do you think there's any hope of DeSantis winning in Iowa or Haley winning in New Hampshire, and there actually being a shot of Trump not being the nominee?

The short answer is yes. Now, let me give you the longer answer, and you understand this as a student of politics. But what the polls say is a snapshot in a given moment is not necessarily predictive of an outcome. Also, we can talk about all the people who've won the Iowa caucuses and did not go on to become president. There's precedent as far as not necessarily making a decision about what America is going to do Just after the first primary. Let's be honest, a year ago, Nikki Haley was not on anybody's radar. Let's be honest. If you were to ask me a year ago, I would have said that a Florida governor, Ron DeSantis, was most likely going to be the top challenger to Donald Trump, and it has not panned out that way. I think that we can safely say, We don't know what is going to happen. We think that we are headed in a certain direction, but we don't know what's going to happen. Although New Hampshire may be an indicator, it's not the last word. We look at even Joe Biden across the aisle. His candidacy was thought to be dead in the water until South Carolina.

Since the Democratic Party has reerraged all the prime to help out Joe Biden, and now they put South Carolina at the top. But that's a different discussion. All I'm saying is that we should be careful not to be declarative in our statements because the poll said something.

I do want to move to President Biden. There's a new Wall Street Journal article that's really fascinating that just came out a few days ago. The headline is Biden's 2024 problem. Voters say his policies hurt them. The biggest criticism, basically, in this article from voters is inflation and high prices That's the chief complaint, but also people are upset with his broader record on domestic and foreign policy. It's interesting that young people in particular seem very angry about his stance on Israel. How worried should President Biden be? Just given that, again, so much of his coalitions seem upset with him. Do you think it's the type of thing when they go in the voting booth, it still won't matter because he'll be up against a Republican? How nervous do you think he should be?

I think he should be exceptionally nervous for a number of reasons. When young people are disenchanted, historically, they don't necessarily vote for the other person. They stay home. The Democratic base is predicated on turnout. The higher turnout usually helps the Democratic in these types of elections. If they're disaffected, they'll likely stay home. That's the first thing. The second thing is there is really no connection between younger voters and the 81-year-old Joe Biden, let's be honest. I think a reasonable person I can say, Hey, let's just say, hypothetically, that Joe Biden is 100% in a cognitive sense in 2023. Hypothetically. If he were to be reelected, he would be President January 19th of 2029. A reasonable person should have a problem with that. I think there are more reasonable people than unreasonable people. There's also this, Joe Biden is a victim of his own success. He was running on policy, things that he was going to do or attempt to do for America. So he's going to be judged on that policy. Unfortunately, he's not running a race against a person in Donald Trump who is talking about policy. Donald Trump is talking about emotions, and I would say fear-based demogagry, but he's not running on policy per se.

So Donald Trump is not weighed down by that. Any president is responsible for the times in which he's president in the sense that the inflation cannot be denied. The high prices cannot be denied. When we say, Is the economy stupid? As once was said before, the economy for most people is right where we are. It doesn't matter if everyone else has a job in his low on employment. I don't have a job. So that means my economy is not doing well. My grocery prices are high. To answer your question, the long way is, yes, he should be exceptionally concerned. But here's the good news. If you're a Democrat, I I strongly believe that the only person that Joe Biden could beat is Donald Trump. Because if there's a Republican candidate not named Donald Trump running, Joe Biden loses all day, every day.

Yeah, I totally agree with that. It's fascinating because it's like Biden is the only person that Republicans can beat, and then anyone but Trump can beat. But just like you said, and it's a very weird catch-22 brain melt, and it's really stressful. I find politics very stressful right now for this reason, because like you said, I am not an ageist person, but I do think '81 is too old to be the leader of the free world. Like you said, he'll be, what, 85 or 86 if he's reelected by the time he gets out. It's not young. I don't say that again. We're all going to get there, hopefully. I'm not an ageist person, but it does make me uncomfortable. I have to ask you about this, but this is not my favorite person. Rfk Jr. Is getting wasted on social media. I don't know if you've seen this, for putting out a campaign ad that says you can win a day of falconry with him, which I don't know what that means. I guess it means you just play with falcons. I'm not a falconer. I don't know if that's something you're interested in, Mo.

You can't say I am. Me either. Do you think he has a chance? I know he lives in California. Is he a spoiler? I've been fascinated by his rise, and I guess he could a spoiler for Trump or Biden, but what do you make of what he's doing so far?

I think he's one of the people first who I would say is not really running for president. He's running for the next thing. I don't know if that's a radio deal, TV deal, book deal. I don't know what it is, but it's the next thing. He's now known by more people than ever before, regardless of his last name. More people are familiar with him. He had been on the scene for a while, but now everybody knows who he is. In terms of his political prospects, he could be Ross Perot. He could be Ralph Nader, he could be a Gary Johnson or a Jill Stein. What I mean by that is he could be the politician in a state or two, get 30, 40,000 votes, and that be outside the margins of what could decide a state. In an electoral college sense, could be a difference maker in the way that we remember what Jill Stein was in 2016. Now, is he actually Is he going to win a state? No. Is he going to become president? No. But could he disrupt things enough where he changes the trajectory of our nation? Yes.

Yeah. I see him more as a spoiler. I just don't know who he spoils for. I don't know if he helps Biden or helps Trump because his demographic is so bizarre. I don't mean that like crapping on people who support him, but there's no real through line of people. It's like Republicans, Democrats, independents, a little everything in between. Who do you think he helps?

I get the sense that he would help Joe Biden at this point because his public pronouncements seem closer to Donald Trump than Joe Biden. In other words, I don't see him taking Democrats with him, even though his registered party is Democrat. Because we all know in the general election, people are going to vote for whoever they vote for, regardless of party affiliation. I don't know if he takes a lot Democrats with him to the general election. I'm more inclined to believe that people who would like him would trend closer to Donald Trump, just from what I've seen as far as public pronouncements.

Well, it'll certainly be interesting, but like I said, I don't really want that day of falconry. I'm just telling you, I don't really want to do that. Look, I have to ask you this question because it was trending all over the weekend, Mo. I'm uncomfortable talking to you about this a little bit just because of the content of what it is. Over the weekend, it came out that a sexual tape was filmed in the Senate chambers. A staffer of Senator Ben Cardin from Maryland somehow made a pornographic video, and it was all over social media. That staffer has then been fired. I, unfortunately, saw the clip that went around just because it was all over my social media feed. I I was really, really, really sad because I think of still Senate and Congress in our White House and even state buildings in states where legislation is passed as very sacred spaces. I was just really, really sad and then also fearful of just the culture we're in right now where no one would think twice about filming a pornographic video in a Senate Hall. What do you think this says about just where we are politically, culturally?

Again, this is a very uncomfortable topic to bring up, but it made so much news over the weekend. I felt like I had to.

It's a complicated question with a complicated answer. I'm not so naive to believe that similar things had not gone on. Let's remember, I lived through oral sex in the White House with a White House intern.

Sure, of course.

I'm not naive to what probably happens in certain corners and quadrants of Capitol Hill and in the White House. But there's something more pervasive, I would say now. I would say there's something that's very different now in the laissez-faire, lackadezical way in which people engage in behavior with absolutely no shame. The very public nature of it, to get likes, to get hearts. Look, there's a lot of things that I've done in my life that I'm not proud of. I damn sure didn't film it. I didn't tape it. I made sure that anything which was photographed didn't get out there. That tape to me was made with the expressed intention of it getting out there, with the express intention of showing the backdrop of the Senate chamber, with the express intention of somehow getting credit or clout for, Look what we were doing in this location. That, I think, speaks to the change in America. All these things work together. We talk about how our politics is broken, how our electoral process has changed fundamentally. This is part and parcel of that as well. The whole lack of respect for the institution, the lack of respect for a particular office, for a particular political process.

I think that's the through line. That is the consistency of it all. It breaks my heart. I say this, I'm 54 now. I probably have more life behind me than in front of me, as the math would suggest, and I understand what the old folks back in the day told me now. It's like, I can't personally worry and emotionally get saddened about everything. Some of these things I have to leave to the next generation, but I can't see where all this is headed. It distresses me, it dismays me. I'm not sure how we get back from this, but it is a definite progression. I think it's indicative of things which are larger than politics. Social media, I think, is a huge contributing factor. But yeah, I was disgusted and really dismayed that you thought this was okay to do, you thought this was okay to tape, and you thought that this wasn't going to get out. Of course you did.

No, I was really upset. I tweeted something on, I think it was Friday night, where I was like, I just don't understand why anyone would do such a thing, why you would film yourself doing such a thing, and again, why you would think you wouldn't also get caught. And then the person who did this put out a statement that was like, I'm being targeted for who I love because it's a homosexual man, and it's an agenda-driven issue. And I was like, That has nothing to do with it. If this were a straight couple doing this, I would be equally as repulsed. It's the fact that you filmed yourself doing such a thing in a sacred political space. And again, you and I are... Look, again, the first time I ever heard about oral sex was Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky. I'm also not like a daisy here, but I agree with you that there's something about the intentional filming of it and releasing of it. My sister-in-law works on as an advisor to Speaker Kevin McCarthy, and she was just despondent. She was like, I don't even put a tweet out of any kind that I wouldn't think is reflective of my boss and where I work.

I agree with you. Just for some reason, it has really upset me. I think it's just also just the casualness of pornography now. I know he sounds like an old lady, but it makes me feel a little better that you were disgusted and distressed as well, Mo.

I think you make a great point, the casualness of pornography. We have been, as a country, desensitized to so many things. When you talk about that, I remember as a kid, and yes, I guess I'm old now, pornography was not everywhere. You had to really hunt At best, maybe one of the dads of the neighborhood, or even my dad, might have had a magazine here or there, but that was it. It was not ever present. It was not ever available. Now, it's just seemed like it's for everyone everywhere all the time. There is no age of innocence anymore. Kids grow up knowing everything about everything. They've seen everything. If they don't know, well, they can Google it and find graphic pictures and videos to complement their questions. Society has changed in terms of the pillars and the function of it, but also people of that society have changed.

No, I totally agree with that. I think as you're bringing up the access to Google and how media is changing, because my other guest is a friend that I met when I was working at Newsweek magazine, when weekly magazines were still a thing. One of the interesting data points that have just come out at the end of this 2023 is that the state of our cable news is fascinating. Cnn had its lowest ratings ever. In the history of CNN existing, it had its worst ratings in 2023. Msnbc had its lowest rating since 1996. Fox News did win the battle of the cable news shows, but it is only averaging around 2 million viewers, which all things considered is not a large audience. Everything is down everywhere. What do you think that's reflective of, of the... Cnn having its worst ratings? I mean, just think about that, ever. Fastinating.

I was never a paid contributor for CNN, but I did a I hear on CNN a lot in the interest of full disclosure.

I remember, yeah.

I've done MSNBC a few times. I say that to say I've seen the evolution of the networks. Once upon a time, CNN, it's domestic channel. They have international channel as well. The domestic channel was more predicated on just news. Now it's just opinion and editorial for the most part. It's opinion and editorial around politics. There's not a diversity of programming by and large on CNN specifically. I honestly believe that people are tired of the negativity and tired of the same old, same old when it comes to the discussion of US-based politics. There's more going on in the world. It seems like whenever the CNN domestic channel is covering things going on in the world, it's an extension of what we're talking about here politically, be it Ukraine, be it Israel and Hamas. I don't mean any disrespect. I'm just saying the coverage is more like, Will we get Ukraine aid funding? Will we get Israel aid funding? It's an extension of the political discussion, and there's not much more to it. I don't have any specific data to back that up, but I do believe it's an overall fatigue, which speaks to just this focus on opinion and editorial, as opposed to what I love, local news, which is just the who, what, where, when, why, and how.

A lot of times when I talk to young people, I counsel them and explain to them, if you know what the host orouncer thinks about the story that he or she is discussing, that's not news. That's opinion and editorial. I say, Turn on channel 9 and just watch the five o'clock news. You have no idea what they feel about the story.

It's funny to say that. You're getting the news. It's so funny you say that, Mo, because I actually have started watching local news at a much larger consistency over the past, I would say, year, year and a half. I was always like, I would watch, but now it's what I watch, especially in the evenings. Again, I don't know if it's my age or whatever, but I also... The drama, the punching, the disrespect, I feel like everyone wants to be a reality TV star on cable news in general. I watch Bravo for that. Sometimes I just want the news. That's why I listen to podcasts. Like I said, I watch local news. Then sometimes I watch international National News, but I really don't watch any of those channels anymore. But you are a local radio host in California. California is used as this example by Republicans as a failed state, referencing crime, homelessness, I recently watched the Gavin Newsom-DeSantis debate. I thought DeSantis one, but I thought Newsom held his own more than I thought. What's it like hosting in a city, especially in Los Angeles, California, that is such a source of national conversation.

It's good and bad because, as Gavin Newsom would say, California leads the way. As California goes, so goes the rest of the nation. You can't have it both ways. People are going to look at what's going on in California as at least a leading indicator of what America is going through. I am a lifelong Angelino. I was born and raised in Los Angeles. I've lived my life in Los Angeles, with the exception of going to college in Washington, DC. I understand not only the topography, the demography, the history of Los Angeles. Los Angeles, and I love it in all of its warts, but I say that knowing Knowing that it's in a terrible place. I know when I leave my house, the amount of trash, the amount of violent crime, the amount of just ineffective governance is not my imagination. I used to take the Metro to work every single day. I wouldn't dare get on that Metro, and I'm an able-bodied man. I would not advise my wife or family to get on that Metro. It is unsafe. That is categorically different than 20 years ago. Now, is there a political answer to that?

I don't know. I do know that I did not vote for the LA County DA, George Gascogne, and I I do know that his handling of the violent crime that I'm talking about is totally unacceptable. It's a permissiveness which allows more violent crime. When people know that if they're going to get arrested, they're going to be immediately He's completely released. And although I understand his thoughts behind no cash bail, the implementation in his execution is indefensible. It's a complicated issue, but I know that LA is not what it was. In California, I can't speak for California because San Francisco and Los Angeles, that's like three different states in between. You're talking about some 500 miles in between. There's really no similarity. They may be governed by the same governor, but that's where I think people miss the point that California is very diverse in the sense of its politics. Not talking about electorially. If you get up to Central California and Eastern California, that's very rural and very, very red. People don't necessarily know that unless you're actually from California. What I think is going back to the debate, I thought that DeSantis would have been great if that were a debate for California governor and governors.

But unfortunately, it was being cast as a quasi-presidential debate, if only because everybody knows Governor Newsom is the apparent air quotes to Joe Biden in a presidential sense, if he should falter. We know that Ron DeSantis is presently running for president. For me, in my mind, it was a presidential debate. But it would have been great if it were a gubernatorial debate, Ron DeSantis would have won very easily. But to your question, I'm very... I guess the common theme here is I'm disappointed at where California has gone. It's fair to say to extrapolate out if California is a leading indicator, Then you can say that, well, it can be very disappointing to see where America has gone. We can argue about why that is or who's responsible or irresponsible. But we disagree on how we got here. But I don't think we should disagree on where we are and why we should not stay here.

Well, it's interesting because I lived in Los Angeles for a long time. It's truly a great American city. I mean, it is a hub of entertainment. California is a hub of tech, and I really enjoyed my time living in Los Angeles. The crime wave had not started when I lived there. When I went back last year, I was surprised at how dirty I found West Hollywood. There were homeless people doing drugs on the street. It was just not... I didn't feel comfortable. Normally, a few years ago, I'd been like, Hey, Mo, meet me for dinner in Hollywood, where I used to live, and I wouldn't have thought anything of inviting you to ketsuya for sushi. Now, we're not eating in that area. If I come to California and we want to get dinner, I'd be like, We need to go to another area. It just makes me very sad because I agree with you. We can have a debate about the ways to fix it. I find it strange when people deny that it's happening.

I don't find it strange because I think when this goes back to me being independent and trying to call balls and strikes, politics seems more self-serving than ever before, where politicians are no longer public servants, civil servants. They're more concerned about just staying in office and not necessarily about problem solving. Maybe I was more naive 20 years ago, and it's always been that way, but it seems a little more naked in its presentation now. It seems more dishonest now. It's like, let's call a thing a thing. Let's be clear that the homelessness, the public drug use, I never saw so many people walking around high in my life, the people who are tweaking just out there. It's not relegated to a certain portion of the city. It's not relegated to a certain economic substrata of the city and demographic. It's It is everywhere. It is literally everywhere. The inability to address what is right in front of us, and I have certain misgivings about homelessness because there are certain things you can control and there are certain things you can't control. But you have to address it because I always say it's the hepatitis alphabet.

It's a safety issue. It's a health issue for the whole public when you have people living out in filth. Hepatitis A, B, and C, all of that has be taken into account. But there's this unseriousness when a politician like Gavin Newsom, in the interest of full disclosure, I've never voted for. I've never supported. When he'll get up there and say, California is great. No, California is not great. I love California. I'm from California. But California is not great right now. It just isn't. When I can point to specific things which makes it less than great. So let's address those things which make it less than great. And stop saying that everything is fine.

Well, I know you mentioned you went to college in Washington, DC. I'm taping in Washington, DC. I live in Alexandria, which is like, because you lived here, it's like across the bridge from Washington, DC. It's- Literally Key Bridge. Literally Key Bridge. People are always confused. I'm like, It's like five minutes away from Washington, DC. But there is actually a few things that have made news. It's very similar to what's happening in It was announced that the Capitals, the hockey team and the basketball team stadium is actually being moved to Alexandria from Washington, DC. Basically, people think it's because it's just too dangerous. There's a lot of muggings, a lot of crime happening where the stadium is, and they just announced it. It's creating some controversy. And Muriel Bowser, the mayor of DC, is very angry about it and making fun of Virginia and saying it's boring and all these things. I used to take my daughter to playgroup in Washington, DC. I'm not going to say exactly where. I actually stopped taking her because too many people I know have been carjacked, and basically my worst nightmare is being carjacked with my child in the car.

I literally stopped bringing my child to something that's good for her because I was fearful of crime. I find Muriel Bowser's just reluctance to, like you said, just say that there's a problem, flabbergasting, just to acknowledge that there are problems going on. I just woke up this morning, and there's a place called City Center here in DC, and the Chanel store had been looted again for the third time this year, and people bashed in and whatever, stole items from the store. It just doesn't feel safe. Again, I'm not someone who can't handle myself much like you. I lived in New York City for most of my life. I lived in Los Angeles. But I don't want to be around crime, and I don't think that makes me a raging right wing sell it.

No, not at all. I've been following that story closely because people didn't know I went to Georgetown. That is a very wealthy to-do portion of Washington, DC. When I went to school, which was in the late '80s, turning to early '90s, crime was out of control in Washington, DC. Since that time, there has been a lot of urban renewal. They remodeled downtown what we call K Street, and also down by the Harbor. Gorgeous, beautiful. I remember when DC was super violent, and they were killing kids for sneakers back in the day, but it was in a certain portion of the city. If you don't know the city, it's in four quadrants, Northwest, Northeast, Southeast, Southwest. A lot of the violence was in East and Southeast. Georgetown was in the upper Northwest portion, the well-to-do portion. What has happened, and I think this is more like a generational revelation, The city has been this violent before, but it hasn't been this violent since the urban renewal. People are encountering it in places they didn't encounter it before, where it was In just certain portions of the city, now it's more pervasive in everywhere in different parts.

For example, in a joking way, I will talk about on my show where, oh, people are now just figuring what it's like to go into a ride aid seeing everything locked up because they're worried about things being stolen. Well, if you're from the urban parts of the city or the hood, as they say, it's always been like that. I try to tell people, now you understand what other people have been living through and dealing with. In In addition to Washington, DC, it's a very complicated issue because we've been dealing with that in LA, in bringing back teams like football teams to LA. Well, they didn't want it in certain portions of the city because that meant that the money would go to that portion of the city. When you have teams leaving Washington, DC and going to Virginia, it is not just a crime issue, it's an economics issue. That's a lot of jobs and a lot of revenue and businesses and part-time employees, which will be directly impacted. I understand Mayor Bowser trying to advocate for her city. I understand that. But I also want to make the distinction, Don't lie to us. I see what I see.

I go back to DC every single year. It's It's not what it was five years ago. Can we at least tell the truth?

It's the money part of it, the economic part of it. My understanding is it's billions of dollars of money that will go to, like you said, just people working in the stadiums, everything else. Was Clydes the restaurant around there when you were there? Yes. Yes. Clydes is this really iconic restaurant that's right by the arena, and Clydes is now saying that they may move, which, again, it's an iconic restaurant that I think has been around for 70 years. All of it makes very sad because I, too, think that Washington, DC is one of the great cities in the United States. There's something about it. I personally, Mo, in my life, personally, personal friends of mine, I know four people who have been carjacked. Four. That's crazy. There's a 400% increase in the last year of car jackings. It's everywhere. Again, I just don't feel like we should be living in a city that car jackings are at 400%, but that's something you and I agree on.

I think we agree on a lot of things. I I really do. I hate to be, Oh, God, get off my lawn, but I'm there now.

No. I'm in grace to you. No. You're not like that at all. Excuse me. To end on a positive note, In a happy note, it's Christmas time. What are you and your wife doing? How are you going to celebrate? Do you take time off from your show at Christmas time or New Year's, or do you have to work through?

Well, I don't have to work through. I choose to work through because later with Mo on KFI 640 and iHeartRadio, it's in its first year. I try to take the opportunity to get, I would call it exclusive time. Every other show on KFI, they're going on hiatus or they have filling hosts, and I get to own the station for a good week and a half. When I was doing my weekend show, I was the guy who was filling in for everyone during the holidays. It's not a marked difference by me in my work schedule now. Also, I'll be doing some of the shows from home. I have a fully developed home studio, so I don't necessarily need to go into the physical studio to do my job. I'm not necessarily gone as much. My wife, she has to work as well. She works for a city municipality. Even though the city shuts down, her duties don't shut down. Our lives don't change. As far as celebrating Christmas, I just went to our church's Christmas music concert, and I just love all that. Those are certain benchmarks and signposts where I got, I got to go to the Christmas concert.

I like to see young people celebrating Christmas in the authentic meaning of it. As far as what we're going to do, our family is going to get together actually in January, a small family reunion. We're going to go on a cruise down the Coast of Mexico. That's what our family is going to do. We're going to open presents on Christmas Eve, and I'm going to sit back, and I'll probably put my feet up, watch the kids, the grandkids, do their thing, and now I'm going to start leading back in the rocking chair.

Do you have a New Year's resolution?

I have the same resolution every single year, and it's this. It's to be a somewhat better person, somewhat incremental. I want to be a little bit more patient. I want to be a little more kind. I want to be a little bit more understanding. I don't want to be the same person I was 5 and 10 years ago. I don't have the resolution to lose 15, 20 pounds. That's ephemeral. I don't think that benefits anyone else. But if I am more patient, if I am more understanding, if I am more kind, then that also benefits someone else, and then my blessing can become someone else's blessing. If I can improve in that way, then I think that the lessons instilled in me by my parents mean more. That's my New Year's resolution to be a little less of an a-hole.

You're not an a-hole at all. You're like one of the best men I ever worked with.

I don't know about all that, but I appreciate that Thank you. But for example, New Year's resolution, I can't say I'm leaving X/Twitter altogether.

You are?

Yes. It's too toxic.

It's awful.

I will find some other social media outlet platform, but I could tell it was negatively impacting me, the toxicity.

But tell me you're at least staying on.

The only one who's to blame is me because I stay there.

But stay on Instagram.

It's almost like an abusive relationship.

Can you stay on Instagram, though?

No, I'm not leaving Instagram.

I like your Instagram. I'll be on brands.

Okay. I will be. And you notice, I call that. I keep that very separate. My Instagram is like friends and family. Even though it's publicly accessible, I don't talk about politics on it. I don't talk about any of the social issues. I try to keep it in a very warm place.

It might not be far after you on X. It really is just a terrible place. Twitter X is an awful place right now. It just is really abusive towards everybody. Mo Kelly, you can catch his weeknight show later with Mo Kelly on KFI AM 6:40 and iHeartRadio. Mo, I'm so happy to talk to you. This hour has just flown by. I will want to put you on the spot right now and insist that you come back often throughout the election coming up. We've got the big New Hampshire primary, South Carolina primary, Iowa caucus. I really want your opinion, so I would really love it if you come back on.

On one condition. Okay. Next time I'm in DC or my wife and I are in DC, we get together, you Ben and us, we go out and get some lunch or something.

You can stay at my house in our guest room, if you would like, Mo. If I didn't know you come to DC all the time. I would be more than happy to see you, see your wife. At least once a year. I would actually be offended and assaulted if you didn't tell me when you were in town. So please let me know.

Well, okay.

Then we have two promises we both got to keep. Okay, wonderful.

All right. Thank you so much, Mo. Merry Christmas.

Merry Christmas.

Thank you all so much for listening today. How fabulous is Rameen Satuda and Mo Kelly. Rameen is editor of Variety. You can just breed variety. And Mo Kelly, like I said, is the host of The Weeknight Show, Later with Mo Kelly on KFI AM 6:40 and iHeartRadio. Thank you all so much for listening. We will be back again Thursday for a special Christmas episode. See you soon. Thanks for listening to this episode of Megan McCain has entered the chat brought to you by Teton Ridge. I am your host and executive producer, Megan McCain. Additional executive producers are Miranda Wilkins, Eric Spiegelman, and Wyn Wigal. Our supervising producer is Olivia DeCopoulos. Our senior guest producer is Cara Kaplin, and associate producer, Austin Goodman.