Megan McCain has entered the chat. Merry, Merry, Merry Christmas. I love Christmas. We are so close to Christmas time, to one of the best holidays of the entire year. This is going to be our last episode of 2023. But do not fret, we will be back right after New Year's in 2024. We have a great, cozy, happy holiday show today. We have my friend, Melanie Berlier, who is a lifestyle expert and a senior media executive. With over 20 years experience, an old friend of mine, we are going to talk all things lifestyle, Christmas, and getting through the holidays. If you maybe don't agree with some of your family members, politically, socially, that's totally fine. Then we have the great chef, Andrew Gruel, who is America's chef. He's a big restaurant, he's on news all the time. We are going to talk to him about all things cooking, cooking hacks, holiday-related, food inflation issues, and how to stretch a holiday meal when you're on a budget. I'm personally, I'm going to ask him about some hangover cures because, Miranda, I don't know if you know this, but Anthony Bourdaine's Cure for a hangover was, and I looked this up last night, Sashwan food, a Coke, Aspirin, and smoking a joint.

Now, I don't smoke or take marijuana. I don't like it. I'm a T total these days, especially when you have kids. But I think Sesshwan and a Coke sounds good if that's something you want. But I do think I'm going to try to have maybe a glass of champagne on New Year's this year.

Anthony Bourdain, that tracks because in my 20s, when I used to dabble in partying, that's what I would do. But mine was Pepsi, some a painkiller, and it would be like a banana or a slice of pizza or something. So there is something to the Pepsi or a Coke thing. It's got to be the caffeine and the sugar. I don't believe in the hair of the dog thing. It just prolongs it.

When I was younger, I could never do that either. I want to ask you, since we're going to have a week off, what you're planning on doing with your girls, what you're doing with your husband. Are you looking forward to Christmas? Are you stressed out about Christmas? And what are you doing for New Year's?

I'm both looking forward to it and stressed. I have a a leaning, tumbling tower of Amazon boxes in my room that I have. Because I don't know what's a present, what's my vitamins. And I'm afraid to open a box because who knows what's going to be in there. So I've got to figure this out. But I'm very excited to celebrate Christmas. I have a seven and a three-year-old, so Christmas is still very magical for them. And it's very exciting. We have an elf, and we do all of the stuff and the things. We're going to do gingerbread houses this this weekend. My husband gets a week off of work, so we're going to just relax and watch all the great Christmas movies, like Gremlins: An American Psycho. Gremlin.

Diehard.

Yeah, exactly. And then on We'll do family stuff like his family, my family. We'll do New Year's Eve. We usually stay home, and we get all the noise makers and poppers, and my girls are night owls. So they always make it to midnight and beyond. And it's a good time. I'll probably have a glass or two of champagne myself.

I love that. I I love that that you're doing something. What about you guys? Okay, so we are going to West Virginia, which has become a new tradition for me here. I hate flying so much. It's just too hard for me to fly during the holidays with such young children. Clover is not even one yet. We rented an Airbnb, and we're going to just be in the mountains. Because Ben should have been a chef instead of a political commentator, he has already had the menus all planned out and is actually going grocery shopping right now to get all the supplies to bring. That's what we're doing. It's just fun to build a fire outside and be in the woods. West Virginia is so gorgeous. I'm very happy. I'm just excited we're all going to take a break right now. I think everybody deserves a little holiday break.

I know this doesn't seem like a lot, but it is a lot.

Yeah. The world is just so stressful and so intense right now. But I will say I was thinking about it as I was driving in today from my house, driving to the studio. How lucky I am to, A, be working with you. We've been friends so long. I've known you, I think, a decade. You're an incredible executive producer. You've had offers for much bigger hosts and much bigger podcasts to be executive producers for them. And just it really is such a gift to be able to choose whoever we want to talk to, talk about whatever we want. And we have a boss in a sense that we have people that we answer to, but we don't have editorial bosses. And getting to say whatever I want whenever I want is really just, I think, particularly in this moment, the greatest gift. So I just want to thank you for still agreeing to work with me and do this. And I'm really proud of what we're building.

Not all Only did I agree to work with you, but I was enthusiastic wanting to work with you. We've been talking about doing this for years, and we finally tricked someone into paying us to do it.

And we have a real studio, and we have a real booker, and we have a real engineer, and sound engineer. It's all real stuff in here. We're not doing this on an iPhone. I actually am in my kid's bedroom, and it is a joy and a pleasure to work with you, my friend. I love working with you. We've been friends so long, and it's just really such a pleasure and such a gift. I also want to thank Cara Kaplan, our incredible Booker, for really just doing such an incredible job and rolling with the punches when people cancel and crazy things happen and working at all hours. When I text you at 11:00 at night saying, Can we book this person in a few weeks? I just really thank you so much, Cara. I just want to thank we have this cool lady crew getting everything ready in here, and we're all moms and it's great.

Cara really keeps me trained on the tracks because you and I are batshit crazy.

Cara is the adult in the room. It's true. Cara, you are. It's true. Cara is my far the most mature person in this operation. We're all the same age, so it's not like it's an age thing. No. Anyway, on that note, I just, again, want to thank you both, Miranda and Cara, and everyone else who is involved with this podcast. It's been a wonderful few months. We're on episode, I believe, 17, and we have a whole year coming up in the election and this wild, crazy time in politics in an American culture. We have a lot of Real Housewives coming up, too. Just a lot. I personally am very, very interested to see the last episode of Salt Lake City. They're all muting against Monica. You know I have this unpopular opinion that Monica is my favorite on Salt Lake City. I really love Monica. I just do. We would love for you to come on the podcast, Monica, by the way. We're working on it. We're working on it. We're trying. Yes. Okay. So on that note, Merry Christmas. Happy New Year. Thank you so much, Miranda and Cara. And let's get started. Welcome back to Megan McCain has entered the chat.

Our next guest is someone I have known for, I was trying to actually remember. It's like 15 years maybe longer. My friend Melanie Berlier, she's a lifestyle expert and a senior media executive with over 20 years of experience creating content across platforms. She is the author of two children's books, and you can follow her on Instagram or TikTok at melanieberlier. Com. B-e-r-l-i-e-t. Melanie, thank you so much for joining me on our last episode of the year.

Thank you for having me. I didn't realize it was the finale. Now it's a special.

Yeah. I mean, we're starting back after the new year, but very excited to have you. How long have I known? I mean, I met you when I was shooting a show that nobody cares about called Raising McCain that came out, I want to say, 2011?

Yeah, that feels about right. I'll never forget. We met in the bathroom, really. And I was endeared to you because you turned the faucet on to pee more easily.

Yeah, I don't like people listening to me urinate. I still don't like it. It's like a hang up I have. I always turn the water. I even do it in my house with Ben. I don't know what that is.

You had me at that faucet.

I was like, I'm sorry. And you were coming on as a guest, and I can't even remember what the topic was at this point.

It was Adderall. We were talking about- It was Adderall. Yeah. I was the guest who did the investigative story about I sold Adderall through Craigslist on the black market for a story for New York magazine, and your other guest was a user.

Yes. I forgot about that. So I was doing research on your career before this, obviously, even though I know, but I needed a refresher. And you have written so many incredible, iconic stories for so long. Thank you. Just fascinating things that really hit the zeitgeist. And one of the things I always loved about your work was you do a lot of the things you talk about you're an experienced journalist as well. Are you I'm still doing that work now. And do you have a favorite of all the pieces you've written?

Oh, my. I have stepped away from that type of work, if only because it became more difficult when I started dating someone really seriously, because a lot of the stories I did involved, for instance, dating sugar daddies for an expose on sugar daddy dating.

That's my personal favorite one, by the way.

That one never dies. Every few years, somebody reaches out to me, either sugar baby type of person or a producer who wants to buy the rights or something. And I did option it at one point. I can't remember what happened with that, but that remains a favorite. But yeah, it just got difficult to do that immersive type of journalism because the subject matters I was choosing had a lot to do with dating and relationships. And I'm in love now and in a healthy long term relationship. My life is just generally more boring. But I did a lot of awesome cool stuff back in the day, and I don't regret any of it. It was all fascinating. And I was just drawn to interesting subcultures, is what I would say.

There is a moment, I feel like this moment in time, which is what's really funny to me is that the show, the HBO show Girls, is getting this second resurgence right now, where I guess a lot of Xers are watching it. And that was the era that you and I were like, I don't want to say in our heyday any more, but doing those... I didn't do the tiny work you did, but I was really making loud noise in media for a lot of different reasons, writing Getting weird pieces. I think I was working at MSNBC at the time. It was many incarnations of my life ago. What's interesting is you and I have both left Manhattan, and around the same time, it was COVID time. You have moved upstate with your little daughter and her non-husband, which we'll get to that, but long-term partner, and I moved to Virginia. I moved because during COVID, my OB/GYN told me to and was like, If you can leave this city, you should, because it's not good for a pregnant person to be around COVID central, and then I just never moved back. And then since when I'm gone back to the city, I do not feel the same affinity and love in like, New York or no place, energy I used to feel.

What was the catalyst for your decision for moving Upstate, and you live country Upstate.

Yeah, we live in a very rural area.

And how do you feel when you go back to New York?

I have zero FOMO whatsoever. My life has evolved, and we just felt like we ready for a different lifestyle, and we're not people who would thrive in the suburbs. Love the suburbs for those who are into it, but like a traditional suburb, not for us. So really, we went in the total opposite direction of New York City, and we live a very rural country life now, and we couldn't be happier. We left during the pandemic as well, not because I was pregnant, but because we wanted more space. And I felt a lot less safe in the city, honestly, at a certain point. And I wanted to be able to leave my house with my daughter and not be looking over my shoulder all the time. And that was my reality towards the end. I just did not feel safe.

How has the adjustment been? Like you said, because you live country life, and there's this whole, I'm sure you've seen on social media. A lot of people, I would say, are aging and maybe even a little younger, there is this celebration of living in the country and living in nature more. It's so funny because Ben and I are actually thinking about moving out into more rural Virginia right now. We live in a little town that's right across from the capital, but it's technically in Virginia. But we've been thinking about it as well just because I think it'll be so nice to wake up in nature.

It's amazing. We love it. My daughter has embraced it. I mean, she doesn't even remember the city at this point anymore. We have so much nature right in our front yard. We have trail cam set up, and we're constantly looking at the Bobcats and the foxes and the deer who cross our yard. And my daughter isn't afraid to run barefoot in the grass and pick up a snake. It's crazy. Yeah. A garden snake, mind you. The not... Whatever. The safer type of snake. And I just think it's so rewarding to live with big, wide open spaces at your fingertips everywhere, particularly in the summer months, but even in the winter months, like the hiking options and just the number of things we can do outdoors within minutes is amazing. My husband likes to hunt, so that's also been great for him.

How has socializing been? Do you have people in the community you can hang out with, or do you have friends in the city that you can go see from time to time?

I would say that is the number one question I get about making this life change, and I definitely still have my community in New York City. I am employed by a company that's based in New York City, so I have a lot of working mom friends who are New York-based and whom I'm still in touch with constantly. And then here, because of the pandemic, I think there's definitely this bigger community of New York City expats around. If anything, my problem is too many social invitations. In the country. I know it sounds shocking, but I have too many people who want to be my friend. I don't have time for them all. So there's not a lack of opportunity. I mean, we're not hitting the clubs. That's not an option. And the number of restaurants we can visit is really minimal. But there's plenty to do. It's a family friendly existence.

My brother actually moved to a place called Cornville in Arizona during the pandemic and lives on a soy bean farm and is thriving as well, wherever that's worth. You're not the only one I know. I want to ask you about this weird, like I said, and I think there's a post-COVID, a post-pandemic thing that has gotten really popular. There's these Instagram accounts and TikTok accounts that are celebrating trad wife, living homesteading. Again, I'm someone who's considering moving to the country. It's not that, but it's a unrealistic idea of what it would take. There's this one account, and I'm not trying to I don't single her out in particular, but it is the account that gets the most attention called Ballerina Farm. It's a woman who, I believe, has eight or nine children, and she makes homemade pasta and all these things in her kitchen and puts it up on Instagram and TikTok. Honestly, it just makes me feel bad about my life because last night we ordered Chinese food for dinner. I don't really have time in my life to be making homemade pasta. And it came out that her husband is part of the family that owns Jet Blue, and the oven that she has And many of her videos cost $30,000.

Oh, that's funny. So is there a thing right now that's an unrealistic idea of what living in the country and homesteading and tradwifing actually is?

Yes. I mean, I think there are two things you're talking about. The tradwife thing, I have a hard time understanding. I'm all for staying at home if that's your choice, and that's the life you want, and you want to be a homemaker. Great. That's a lot of work. It's as much work as logging into an office job all day. The part And the other thing about the trad wife thing is that I think a lot of women are subscribing to the notion that they should submit to their husbands because that's what the Bible says. And that part really ruffles my feathers. And then in terms of living off the grid and glamorizing that lifestyle, The funniest part to me about that is that it is inherently contradictory when you're blasting that lifestyle all over social media. You are clearly stopping to shoot, produce, edit, and upload content constantly. That happens deep in the grid. You are not off the grid if you are doing that. I just think that's really funny.

It's funny. I saw one commentator bring up the fact that Marie-Antoinette had, I guess, a place at Versailles where she pretended to be a farm girl living on a farm. She had this fake cottage, and that it's very similar to that. It's fake cottage living. I just think it's so strange. Sometimes I feel like some of this stuff is just designed to make me feel bad. But, again, And I'm not making homemade pasta in my own with a $30.

I have never made homemade pasta. I don't feel bad about it, though. I'm happy with the box stuff. But yeah, there is something strange about the glamorization of that lifestyle. I mean, I guess when you have tons of choices because you can afford a $30,000 oven. Why not that? I don't know. It wouldn't be my choice.

I don't want to say infamously, but you and Sasha, your husband partner, have been together. I can't believe it's been 16 years. It's so long. That is a wild amount of time to be with someone, especially because you're young. You are not married, though. I was looking at your TikTok account, and a lot of the TikTok people, or I don't know, what they're called, people that interact with you, they're really asking you a lot of questions about why you have made this renaissance, a rebellious decision to still never get married. But again, if you're with someone 16 years for all intents and purposes, you are, why do you think people are still so fascinated by that?

It's funny you ask. I did not intend for my TikTok to become a platform for discussing not being married, but that is what people consistently want to hear about. So I've made a lot of videos about it. And I just think for me, the answer is really simple. When people ask me why we're unmarried, and it's twofold. I don't want a wedding, never did, and I don't want to be divorced. And to me, those are really good reasons not to get married. And I also think that there's a lot of trust in my relationship. I am the most married, unmarried person you've ever met. People have called me that. We're definitely madly in love and committed to one another. We've just never felt the need to get the paper work that solidifies that union. And I just feel this sense of freedom from not being married. I also think society, we collectively convince people that marriage is the necessary next step to falling in love. My six-year-old daughter already equates marriage with love. I don't know where she's getting it from. Really? Yeah. And to me, it's so interesting. I don't think that the two need to go hand in hand.

It's as simple as that. It's like, stay together long term. You don't have to be married in order to have a healthy long term relationship. And in fact, I'm just so practically minded, right? So I see myself growing old with Sasha 100 %, but at the same time, I can't help but acknowledge the reality that life is unexpected. And maybe we will grow apart, in which case, untangling our lives will be a lot simpler because we're not technically married.

Does he have any desire?

Once in a while, he gets drunk and asks me to marry him. I don't know how real it is. If anything, we'll get married because my daughter keeps Now she's discovered marriage, and she's like, Can I be the flower girl in your wedding? Oh, that melts my heart.

It's so funny because I am married, but I ended up getting married because my dad was dying of brain cancer and wanted me to. That's a good reason, Maggie. Yes. And at the time... Because I was I was very like you. I was just like, whatever. I also don't like weddings as a general rule. That being said, Miranda had a great one right here. Well, yours was great. Thank you.

I actually love weddings.

I like other people's weddings. I do not. Oh, my God. The amount of dumb weddings I've had to sit through, no offense. Who are family-friendly. I won't even do it anymore. You have to be really, really special to me. In fact, I know I'm socially friends with a famous person, and she has a full rule that's like, I do not go to weddings ever. She will not do it. She hates it. It's just so funny. But I just think it's so funny that your TikTok is so... People just have a lot of questions for you about it. Yeah.

People just are convinced we're not really in love and that I'm not really committed to him and we're not Are you going to last. Yeah, I know. I think having a child together is way bigger of a commitment than marriage. People get divorced all the time.

What is your motherhood journey like right now? Because then you have a six-year-old, your daughter is three years older than mine. You were When I was trying to figure out if I want to have kids or not, and I pushed it way off, I think I was like, you know what I'm saying? I was like 35. My doctor was like, If you want kids, you have biological... There's biological things you have to pay attention to. And you were one of the normal cool moms that I referenced. I literally made a list where I was like, Melanie is in it because I like the way you parent. I like that it's not your whole identity. I like that you're still obsessed with your daughter and you do all these things with her, but you're not painting this perfect Instagram, again, toxic idea of what motherhood actually is because half the time I'm getting peed on and picking up food off the floor. What's your motherhood journey like right now? Now that Stella is six, I remember when you were pregnant. I remember going to Balthazar with you when you were pregnant as fuck. And it was so hot.

I remember being so worried you were going to faint. It was summertime. I totally remember that. But what's it like right now?

I will say I feel so keenly aware that I only have a short time left in life when I'm going to get to spend so much time with my daughter. I think they say 75 % of the time you get with your kids happens before they turn 12, which makes sense if you just think about the trajectory of our lives. And so I feel like I'm trying really hard to make the most of every moment. That said, I work full-time. I work a lot. It's important to me that my daughter sees that I work and sees that I'm a contributor to our household. And I think I've just tried to avoid getting swept up in in a lot of the societal dialog surrounding motherhood. For instance, there's all this hoopla around gentle parenting right now. It's this parenting style embraced by a lot of the TikTok generation.

Can you explain to me what gentle parenting is?

I can read... This is what the New Yorker says about it. In its broadest outline, gentle parenting centers on acknowledging a child's feelings and the motivations behind challenging behavior, as opposed to correcting the behavior itself. So basically, you're not supposed to say... You're not supposed to use sticker charts or timeouts and not say things like, Put your shoes on now. I mean, I use sticker charts. I love sticker charts. We've definitely had like, We don't do timeouts, but we have a thinking chair. So I never get swept up in these trendy things surrounding parenthood. I've always felt in my heart this deep desire to just trust my instincts instead and to cherry-pick what I like from different parenting ideologies. Jeez. Somebody asked me shortly after having a baby what my parenting style was, and I was like, I don't want a parenting style. That seems so strange to have to label it. I just want to trust my gut and be as good of a mother as I can be.

Can I tell you my parenting style? Because I've been asked this question, too. My parenting style is, Fuck it, we'll do it live, which is literally... It's like a quote from a Bill O'Reilly clip that went viral where he's messed up, and he can't do it. He's like, Fuck it, we'll do it live. Because Everything you prepare for, it doesn't matter. You have to figure it out in the moment.

That is such a good way to frame it, Megan. I love that. I would say if I had to pick a parenting identity, I would choose scrunchy mom, which is the way the kids... There are silky moms who embrace every form of ease around parenting, like packaged food, and they don't care if their toys are plastic or wooden or whatever. And then the crunchy moms, everything's wooden. And I feel like I fall somewhere in between. I'm scrunchy.

It's so It's funny because the wood toy thing is a big thing where it's plastic is poison to some people, which again, my daughters use plastic cups and have plastic bottles and whatever. But there's this whole thing. It's so stressful where it's like, oh, my God, unless they have a wooden toy that's made in Europe and made in Germany, they're going to die. Keep in mind, again, their favorite toys right now is a little Ariel thing. It's totally made of plastic.

Kids like bold colors. You can have your wooden neutral nursery. And guess what? Kids like bold, bright colors.

Why is that such a trend where nurseries are all beige? And it really freaks me out because I'm like, kids like color. They really do. They do.

It's unreasonable, I think, to have those very esthetic nurseries with only neutral beige wooden stuff. I don't know. My kid doesn't want that.

No. But it's just an interesting... I still feel like... This is so cheesy, but there's that movie Bad Mom's and Bad Mom's Christmas, and I really related to it, especially there's a scene in it when a mom brings just cupcakes from the grocery store for the school fair, because I just find it so stressful. And I do not understand how so many women have blowouts and full faces of makeup and full outfits for all their photos everywhere. I don't understand it. I am barely getting out of the house with pants on half the time. I don't understand how everybody looks so perfect. I have a little bit of makeup- I don't know that everyone does look perfect.

Maybe they do. What I don't understand is how we've allowed moms to be marketed to in every single aspect of their lives. There's this culture of guilting moms into buying things that aren't essential. I remember when I had my baby, people were putting wipe heaters in my face. And I had a revelation one day because I realized that a baby bag is just a bag. I was like, I have bags. I don't need baby bag. And then I don't know. I think it's all part of some giant marketing mechanism.

And I'm like, We're all doing the best we can. Every mom is just doing the absolute best she can.

Yeah, but people are preying upon the mom guilt that we feel to sell us shit. That's my theory.

I do want to move on to some non-mom topics, if you don't mind. One of the things that we have been talking about and that I've been... It's so funny. After I gave birth to my second daughter, my first piece that I wrote when I was still writing for the Daily Mail, which was still my most successful piece I've ever written, was about how I was being pressured to take Ozempic right after I gave birth. All the way around because I'm so fat and whatever. I'm saying that sarcastically. What's so fascinating, something that's made me really sad, two things, is that Weight Watchers is now prescribing Ozempic, which I'm just blown away by, and that Oprah, who is a Weight Watchers ambassador, has admitted to being on Ozempic. I I actually think at this point, it's like an act of radicalism that I have not gone on Ozempic. I will not do it. I'm too paranoid about cancer. I told a friend of mine, I just don't think there are any easy wayouts in life, and nothing worth having is this easy. I think there's got to be a catch. Why is Weight Watchers prescribing Ozempic?

It makes me so sad.

It makes me sad, too, Megan. And listen, if Ozempic is prescribed to you because you have diabetes and it is the medically really better option than not being prescribed it, wonderful. But it's gotten to the point where so many people are taking it purely for weight loss, and that is highly disturbing to me. I agree with you. When something's too good to be true, you need to be highly suspicious of it. And the other weird thing I've noticed is that it's so hard to find anything negative about Ozempic. You have to go out looking for the side effects. Every headline is about the miraculous effects and the wondrous aspects of this drug. And I wonder, I don't know, I'm not a conspiracy theorist by nature, but when it comes to Ozempic, I'm leaning conspiracy theorist. I'm like, Is this big pharma and big food in cajoots? Because the big food is putting shit in our food that leads to our systemic weight problem. And then big pharma swoops in with the answer. It's all a little sus to me.

I feel the exact same way. And I'm actually, I was never one of those big pharma is a horrific person until COVID. And until I got the COVID shot and then got COVID, I'm not exaggerating, it was a month later, six weeks, something like that. I got COVID very soon after I got the COVID shot. I was just like, What are we doing here right now? And post But I just have a lot more questions about a lot of things that I didn't before. And there's something I agreed. There's something about... Because I'm not skinny. I've never been skinny. But post-2 kids, I'm definitely the heaviest I've ever been. Thank God, I have a husband who doesn't give a shit, but it's whatever. But I would just rather exercise and try and eat healthy. There's something about a needle and a shot. And again, people bring it up to me, I mean, weekly. You should just try Ozempic. You should try.

Do people not realize how rude they're being?

And also, I agree with you. Why is this the only option now? Yeah. And I know people who are taking it.

It should be an absolute last resort.

I know people are taking it to lose like, 15 pounds.

Oh, my gosh. Which is crazy. It can't possibly last forever, the effects. I don't believe It's still so new, but we have to be months away from some true horror stories.

I have tried to pitch a TV show where the zombie Apocalypse starts, and the zombies are people who have taken Ozempic. They turn from the medication in It's pretty good. I love it.

I wish I were a TV exact.

I should buy it on the spot. Thank you. I want to move on to Selena Gomez, who I've always been a big fan of because I think she's also someone who's pretty raw about her life. She is now being very honest about having Botox. There There is a story that is getting so much attention at the same time. Kelly Osborne, she and I are almost exactly the same age. I think our birthdays are a few days apart. She's 39. I'm 39. She wants a facelift for Christmas. She's gorgeous. I have no idea what she's talking about. I don't think I need a facelift. I personally don't use Botox. But again, my dad died of brain cancer. I don't want to put needles near my brain. That's just me. Whatever. What is going on? I think Selena Gomez is really young.

She's so young And listen, I think people should be able to do whatever they want to their faces and bodies in terms of beautifying. And I think it's really hard when you're in the spotlight, specifically because you're being photographed and on video constantly. So I get the desire to do it. But it's being marketed to younger and younger women as a way to freeze time, which I think it's really messed up. I don't buy it as an actual fix. There has to be a downside. There just has to be. Again, going back to the same reason we're suspicious of Ozempic, there is no easy way out of aging. You'll never be as young as you are today, everyone.

It's memento mori, right? Isn't that what that is? No, I agree with you. And there's something, again, as I'm pushing 40, I was telling you offline, and our listeners know, I just had a really bad bout of pneumonia, and I'm just so happy to be healthy. As a general rule, I'm healthy, not gunwood. And there's something, again, about that we are not allowed to age, or that we're not supposed to be able to age, that makes me sad and freaks me out. And I also think maybe it's an act of radicalism that I won't do Botox. And again, I'm not trying to humblebrag here. It's just that I feel like the outlier.

I am, too. I am team no Botox. I refuse to do it, but I think I'm the only one of my friends at this point. I love that we should form a low-key club. I refuse to do it because I just think it's expensive for I'm like, I don't want to spend my money on that. And I think once you start, you can't really stop. So I don't want to break that seal and then be bound to Botox. It just seems like a lot of work to do it. And I also don't love the way it looks. I see people who have done it maybe too much, and I think their faces look weird in some cases. And in other cases, I sometimes I don't think they look any younger than I look. I don't know, but I do have a wrinkly forehead if I my eyebrows. So who am I to say? So do I? And I do highlight my hair.

I do. I dye my hair. And I'm full gray. Actually, though, considered recently, I actually looked up some people on Instagram that can dye your hair full gray. But then I was like, that's a bridge too far. I am only 39.

I mean, we draw the line at penetration, right?

Yes. I do want to move on to, have you been following the TJ Holmes and Amy Robok scandal? The Good Morning America 3 hosts that had an affair, lost their job because they had an affair, and now they have a podcast. You've been following it?

I mean, I think the news came out shortly after I actually did Good Morning America with them. Shut up.

What was that like?

I have to admit, I was not shocked to learn it after sending 10 to 15 minutes with them on set. Really? Yeah.

Melanie, why?

I told Sasha this, just it was a vibe. In fact, Amy Robok interviewed me 10 years ago about that Sugar Daddy dating story. So I reminded her of that when I did Good Morning America this year. And TJ was way too interested. Do you know what I mean? I was like, Why do you care about this? I don't know.

That's fascinating.

Yeah. So I am aware.

Okay, so you are aware. So that was such a crazy story because, again, people have affairs. I'm not Pauleana, whatever, but it was more like their co-host, and it's like the morning show. And then when all the videos came out and made their way on social media, They were just so flirty and so touching each other. There was one I saw, they had made a TikTok about doing a marathon together, and they were giving such sexual innuendos. If my husband had been doing that, I would be like, The fuck you are doing? I'd be so pissed. I'd be like, What are you doing? I would lose my mind. But now they're talking about how they want to get married. And in this podcast, it's a lot about just their affair. Why was America so obsessed with this story? Because this story just exploded like fire this year.

I think it has to be adjacent to America's obsession with marriage, too, and how love and marriage have to coexist. And then people get really upset that affairs happen. But infidelity is actually very common. And that's not just men, by the way. You just have to start following Esther Porel, whom I love her work. I can't remember the name of her latest book, but she studies this stuff. Infidelity is pretty common. We live really long, and it's hard to remain faithful for a really long amount of time. And I think some relationships fail, right? Were they both married?

I think so, yeah. And now their exes are dating. What? Yes. Their two exes are dating. That's insane.

Is that a play for media attention? That is bananas.

I loved it when I heard it.

You know what, though? I've heard that happening before because it's only those two people fully understand what they're going through. This has happened before to someone famous as Rebella. Shani Twain.

Yes, Shania Twain.

Oh, my God. I love that. You know that.

And I I love Shania Twain.

And I loved learning that about Shania Twain because that made sense to me. I'm like, Shania and that other person were the only two people fully who understood what they were going through. And so they thought, maybe this all works out for the better. I'm just putting that out there.

You did a really funny TikTok And it started because I was going through all your TikToks. And you were like, my husband was cheating on me because you saw a thing on your bill or something.

Yes, an Airbnb charge. Over the weekend, I was away in Florida with my daughter, and we hadn't stayed in Airbnb in six months. So I was like, What is this?

But it turned out he was not, right?

It turned out that I made a mistake, and the charge had been reversed, first of all, which I fact-checked pretty easily. And he was supposed to go to his homecoming at his alma mater with a friend, and it got rained out, so they canceled the booking. And the romantic getaway option was the only Airbnb in the small town where that school exists. So it all made sense. But for 10 minutes, Megan, my blood boiled. It was like I was a fiery person. I hadn't felt these feelings in, I don't know, 20 years. It actually made me feel quite alive. And then when I confronted him, he was like, No, no. He explained all of that. And I was like, Oh, yeah, I'm wrong. And then he ended up being really flattered, which was a very unexpected reaction. He was like, You think I could do this? You think I still got it? I'm even capable? Not even I wouldn't do it, but like, Oh, you think I could... And that was hilarious.

That's what made me laugh about it. The TikTok as you were like... He was like, Yeah, I could. Oh, check it out. You think I could actually change?

I know. And now every time he leaves the house, he's like, Just go on to see my side piece.

I thought it was so funny that it was a flex for him that he was like, Oh, you think I could actually get away with it?

That's not what I expected. But I guess that's life after 16 years. That's how we get our kicks.

I would flip out, too, if I saw that. Oh, my God. I'd be like, What the.? I mean, I would, too.

For 10 minutes, I was I was planning. I was plotting my exit from the relationship. Not married.

I could just pick up and go. Just leave any time. I want to ask you also about... It made me laugh. One of your TikToks was about snow globing, which I didn't even know what this term was. Can you explain it and why this is a phenomenon during holidays?

Yeah, this is really funny to me, too. It's basically a dating phenomenon whereby people tend to become or perform relationship seriously business around the holidays because they want basically a date to take to their holiday parties and holiday gatherings, and because they're mesmerized by the holiday spirit. It reads to me as a little deceitful, so I don't like it. I don't want to be snowglobed, personally. But I can also see why it happens, because so many people get really overwhelmed by holiday magic in a way that I don't necessarily relate to. But Sasha is a holiday guy. He loves Christmas. He is. Oh, my God. The Christmas music starts the minute after the turkey is served and eaten. And it just always mesmerizes me to see how much he gets in the Christmas spirit. And I think basically snow globing is an offshoot of that, right? It's like people get all swept up in the magic of the holidays, and then they... I don't know. It seeps into their current relationship, but in an inauthentic way, I guess, is the trick.

Are you guys doing anything with family members or friends during the holidays who maybe you don't share politics or share the same beliefs? Are you doing anything at all that's uncomfortable, or do you just avoid it as much as you can?

I feel like everything's uncomfortable in that way lately. I find myself so uncertain about people's take on issues, and just I tread so carefully even when it's obvious, but you don't want to go there because you don't want that tension. It's very awkward, especially around the holidays.

I feel like people get more... I avoid anything. I've put very strict boundaries up during the holidays because I just don't want to have fights. I don't want to have anything. And I think everyone's like... The holidays are great, but it's also very stressful, too. But it is true. Even in my life, unless I 100 % know where your politics are, and unless I'm 100 % comfortable with you, I don't ever bring it up because I don't want to get yelled at or yell at anyone. I mean, I'm not a yeller.

Me, too. I don't want to get into those scenarios either. And people also make assumptions assumptions about my politics because I work in media. Everyone assumes I'm more liberal than I actually am. And I just don't want to have to explain that you can't make assumptions about my beliefs based on my job and the industry I work in. I don't know.

Going in 2024, because again, you have worked in media for 20 years. And I feel like when you... And that's how long I've been doing it, which is crazy. I got my start at Newsweek magazine, which was a news magazine that was weekly. You want to date yourself? Oh, my gosh. I know.

Like a print. Print magazine.

Print magazine. I know. It's crazy. How has the industry shifted for you? Because you've really evolved with the times, with each incarnation of each time in your career. And what are you looking forward to and what has been the most challenging? Because even for me, I feel like women like us have to constantly evolve with things. And I tried to look up your Twitter, and you don't tweet anymore. And I was like, it's crazy. You just moved to TikTok, and your TikTok is really popular.

Thank you. I love TikTok. Yeah, I feel like You have to be a career chameleon in so many ways. I feel if you don't reinvent yourself every few years in some way with technology changing so rapidly, it's hard to keep up. I've always been a digital native of sorts. Even when it was unpopular to prefer the web to print, I was always that person. I was calling Cosmopolitan up and begging them to put my work online because I knew it was going to be read more vastly if it were online. And it was two different departments who barely talked to each other 15 years ago. So I've always been into the Internet. I'm an Internet person by nature. I love the weirdness of it. It can be a shit show, but it's also empowering. I think it's democratized things in a lot of ways, and I like that about it. Totally. Media is in the midst of another massive overhaul with all of the talk and advancement of AI, although I think people are more alarmist about AI than they need to be. For instance, machine learning has been informing the Google algorithm for at least a decade.

Machine learning has been around. It just became part of buzzword in the last year. And yes, OpenAI and all of ChatGPT and all of that stuff is evolving at an incredibly rapid pace now, more so than ever. But yeah, things are vastly changing. I think video is really interesting. Two years ago, I thought that TikTok was this really interesting place where people were being more creative. It reminded me of early YouTube. People were doing a really interesting things, and I was really addicted to it. It's funnily enough, I don't know what's wrong with me. It's become less interesting to me now that it's more popular. I feel less safe there. I haven't been making as many TikToks lately because I used to feel like it was my No one else was there necessarily from my circle, and now everyone's there. But yeah, short form video is going nowhere. And I think it's a good thing that individuals are being empowered instead of bigger institutional brands, like a news week, right? I think there's a lot distrust of institutions for good reason. I'm a fan of the creator economy and all that's doing for people to give them a voice.

I totally agree with that. I actually think, again, going back to HBO Girls era, there was a time when Gawker, and again, people may or may not know what these things are, and Jezebel, were like, they were like these gossip internet sites that were also very mean. It ended up being the downfall of Gócker because they ended up posting a sex tape from Hulk Hogan. He was financed by the billionaire Peter Thiel because they'd also outed Peter Thiel as being gay, and they legally put a sex tape up and had to shut down. It recently came out that Jezebel was going under as well. Jezebel even recently still wrote the nastiest headlines about me. It's so funny to think of that super toxic time for women in media 10 years ago. Do you think that things have evolved in a better way, in a healthier way, or do you think it's just like a shrouded, but it's still there?

I think it's still there to some degree, and it will always still be there to some degree. But what I'm happy about is that I think we're no longer in this era of the bigger institutional places being gatekeepers. Editors of magazines are no longer considered the tastemakers who just at will decide what's trending now. It feels more organic to me what is coming to light as popular and viral through places like TikTok that the algorithm isn't based based on how many followers you have necessarily. Anyone can go viral. So I think that's a benefit of the current climate. But I also think the meanness hasn't gone away, right? It just exists in the comment threads.

It's just in a different place. It's funny. I want to know from you, my internet consumption or my media consumption is I read a bunch of different substacks of writers that I love, and I just want to consume all their information. I listen to a bunch of podcasts, and there's still a few news websites that I go to in the morning to get news, and I read the Drudge report all the time still. But I really don't watch cable news at all. We talked about on our last podcast that CNN has its lowest ratings ever since it first was existed. And that MSNBC has their worst rating since 1996. I don't see a point of these places anymore, given that it's just almost no one is watching. I bet more people watch your TikToks than primetime CNN. What happens to places like that?

I think you're right, Megan. I think I definitely, in terms of my media consumption habits, I haven't watched cable anything in years, I want to say. I do not see much of the future for cable news networks. I mean, the ratings, the eyeballs just aren't there, and you have to meet people where they are. And I have a stepdaughter who is 16 years old, and I don't think she knows what CNN is.

I think she probably won't care. I think it's going to be totally different as she's going into college and whatever else.

She's a leading indicator for me on media trends. And I think she's not watching TV unless it's reruns of Gossip Girl.

That's so funny. That Gossip Girl and Friends is still cool with yours.

Gossip Girl, Friends. Yeah. It's interesting to see what from our past is standing the test of time. Girls, I think, represents a moment like you were saying and is still relatable. I love seeing the little girls clips.

I do, too. I do, too. And I'm still, again, controversial hot take. I still like Lena Dunham. Super controversial hot take. I know.

She's smart.

I like her work, and even I don't agree with it. I'm sure whatever, we disagree on a lot of things, but I think she's an interesting person. She's interesting, and she's really smart and talented.

I love her. She's a good Instagram follow. She's got these lengthy insightful captions.

I follow her on Twitter, but I don't think she tweets anymore. Melanie, I just want to thank you so much for taking time right before Christmas to come on and talk to me. You were on my radio show. You were on My first show. I feel like you came to the view with me. You were just on in so many incarnations of my career. And I just adore you and Sasha, and I love your work. I just always find... The first time I ever met you, I just find everything you do interesting. Thank you. And it's such a great... I love this space in your life. I love what you're doing. Thank you so much. And I just am so happy we've still been friends for so long.

I am so happy to be here, and thank you for having me. I will do it anytime.

Come back anytime you want, and please Merry Christmas, and please tell Sasha to turn something else on other than Michael Bouboublais. I don't like that one. I will. Thank you.

Thank you, Megan.

Welcome back to Megan McCain has entered the chat with me, Megan McCain. I'm so excited for our next guest. You already know who this man is because he has a huge media presence everywhere. Chef Andrew Grool is America's Chef. You can find his Substack American Gravy on substack. Com, and he is a restaurant tour. Chef Gruhl, you are friends with my husband. I see you on TV all the time. Thank you so much for taking time out to talk with me today right before Christmas.

It's an honor. I'm excited to chat. Thank you.

I am, too. So the first thing that I want to ask you is you're California-based, and when I first started following your work, it was because you are so brave and so vocal during the lockdowns about the impact that lockdowns and COVID was having on businesses, the restaurant industry, and average Americans working in the restaurant industry. You were obviously proven right in your perspective and your politics. What is California like for you right now as a restauranteur, and do you think any lessons have been learned from what happened during COVID?

No lessons have been learned from a policy perspective and those at the top. So while I know we've had some level of reconciliation from people who firmly believed in all the lockdowns and the insanity that we saw, that's not the case here in California. The process by which the government took more and more control and started to crush really small to medium-sized businesses, which subsequently hurts employees, has actually continued moving forward. I mean, there's bills in the Senate where They've extended a large majority of these mandates or restrictions and regulations currently. I know California as well. They just removed Newsom's emergency powers that he was given underneath this COVID situation. So we really are still stuck in 2021, if you will.

When you say you're stuck in 2021, I know that crime is a big issue in California as well, just like it is here in Washington, DC. How has crime impacted California? Because in DC, mayor Bauer here doesn't seem to even recognize that there's a problem or understand the impact it's having on businesses. There's a giant well-known restaurant that's been around for 70 years called Clydes that is talking about moving out of DC because it's too violent. What is it like in California?

Yeah, it's pretty much exactly the same. It starts in the cities, almost in the epicenter of the cities, and then it moves out from there. But it's moved out 20, 30, 40 miles. Obviously, we know about Los Angeles and San Francisco sprawl, but the suburbs are not safe either from a lot of the crime. There's a couple of reasons. First and foremost, we know about the bill in which they basically created a misdemeanor surrounding any crime or theft of roughly, I don't know the exact number, Maybe it was $900, but somewhere in that range. That's really been taken very seriously by the criminals in California, which have become more of an organization. You've got your petty crime where you've got the transient drifters, drug users who just spill out onto the streets, break into your business, take a couple of things. But then you also have these organized groups of criminals, gangs, specifically, where they'll take four or five cars. They've got pre-written lists of what they need to steal from retail operations, and they work in a group, and they know that there's not going to be any consequences. There's a certain diffusion of responsibility amongst that group.

But then furthermore, once these criminals, if one or two do get nabbed, they're not held. There's obviously cashless bail. They're not held. Typically, the crime is either treated as a misdemeanor or it's just a slap on the wrist. It's doing nothing more than encouraging criminals to continue moving forward. We operate in Orange County, which is well known as being somewhat of the antithesis Los Angeles with a bit more reasonable management policy on a local level, city council, specifically in Hunting Beach. But you're still dealing with the prosecutors and a very clogged court system where even when they do catch perpetrators, they're not really able to do anything. We had our restaurant broken into just a couple of weeks ago. Hunting Beach Police Department spent four hours in there doing a forensic audit. I mean, they were taking fingerprints. They had all the evidence. When I asked them what the... It seems as if they had enough evidence to catch the person, We had video evidence. We had facial recognition, all of that. Fingerprints, what's going to happen?

They pretty much said absolutely nothing.

God, that's awful. Chef, the question I have for you is why stay in California? Because so many people have left and migrated to different states. What makes you stay working and having your restaurants there?

Well, we've got a home base here, right? It's not as easy as many people think, especially when you've got four kids and you've got a business and a reputation, and there's really good community here. I don't think that California is completely gone. I actually firmly believe that there is a 5% to 7% shift or swing that needs to occur in key areas where we can actually start to take back some power and introduce reasonable, fair-minded legislation. I am at that positive point still where I think that positive change can occur. Unfortunately, we have to go through this process of understanding the ramifications and the consequences of a lot of this legislation for everybody to open up their eyes and say, Yeah, wait a minute. Maybe that wasn't a good idea. While I know that it's never really good to take a couple of black eyes in order to prove that the bully is the bad guy, in the long run, I think that it's going to have a positive effect overall because even now, we talk in theory, and politicians talk in theory about this bill or that bill or decreasing, getting rid of cash bail or decreasing the threshold in which you put people in jail.

It's not going to have effect on the community. It's not going to have an effect. But now we're actually seeing real-world evidence, empirical data that proves otherwise. Sometimes that has to happen. California is also an absolutely amazing area. It is beautiful, and in many cases, those positives do outweigh the negatives. However, I will tell you this, we do have a timeline, my family and I, and we are looking at options outside of the state. I will never open another business in California. I'll tell you that right now. Originally, we're going to grow our concepts from a corporate perspective, but we are now registering all of our concepts to franchise out of state. We are going to grow out of state and no longer contribute to any of the business tax and operating a business here in California.

That's really interesting that you have a timeline, and I'm sad to hear that, but I obviously understand it. I just want to ask you a few more political questions before we get to more chef questions. But one of the things, Gavin Newsom is really espousing himself as this up and comer person. If President Biden drops out or, God forbid, something happens to his health, that he is the person next in line. I don't understand why he is the chosen person. I don't understand why he's presenting himself that way. The only thing I need to know about Gavin Newsom is that During the lockdowns, he locked everyone down and children out of parks and their schools while he went to the French Laundry Restaurant in Northern California, which is one of the most expensive restaurants on planet Earth. Why is it that he thinks that he is someone that the American public can trust? Because the attack ads just write themselves.

It is unbelievable. I mean, Newsom has this special potion, I think, that he takes in which he's able to manipulate the general public, whether it's his superfluous ability to speak, because he is. Look, he's a good orator. He's a good speaker. He can get on his toes and he can backflip over these insults and these critiques, and does so in just such a slimy, smug, pompous way, to those of us that understand it, but to the layman, the person who doesn't follow politics like sport and doesn't understand the nuance and the granular detail in a lot of these issues, he speaks on such a high level, and he avoids responsibility in a manipulative, narcissistic way that it actually makes sense if you're just a drive-by news viewer. I think that's part of the problem. Then when you obviously have the media machine behind them, the media does his dirty work, and it is unbelievable how much they lie to the public, especially here in California. I'm not talking massive media machine. I mean, it's still media machine, but even all of the local outlets, the local television, print medium. It's just unbelievable how they cover for him.

It's almost as if they think... I think many of them recognize that Newsom lies about this stuff, and he flip flops on so many issues based on which way the wind is blowing, but they see it as this existential need to support whatever he stands behind. He does a very good job as a poster child for whatever the newest progressive platform is. There's that tribalism there in which they've They're going to put him up at the top, and they're going to ignore any blemish, any negative associated with not just his policies, but even his personality. Because that story that you bring up, we saw a million, and probably is a million, I'm not being I'm not being hyperbolic here, leaders across the country that weren't listening to their own rules throughout the pandemic. It wasn't just the fact that he was breaking his own rules, but it was the fact that he was doubling down on the lies. It wasn't until little bit pictures came out for that French laundry dinner in which he admitted to some of it, but still to this day, if I bring up Newsom, I have people all over social media who are like, He didn't do that.

What are you talking about? Then when you present the photos, they're like, Well, he was outdoors when there's clearly four walls in the building in which he was eating. I mean, it's insanity.

There was something so like, Let them eat cake, Marie Antoinette, about it when it happened. I can just remember when I was working at the view, he came on and I asked him about it, expecting him to be, I don't know, defiant about it. He was like, I screwed up. That restaurant, again, people can have nice meals, whatever. But I think the average dinner is $1,000 per person. It's a wildly expensive restaurant. I just don't understand how anyone could put this person up as someone that an average American could like or respond to.

Yeah, 100%. I'll throw out there really quickly that during the pandemic, when I did speak out, and I was very vocal about this. One of the lightning rods for gaining national attention was when I went after Newsom, specifically. Nine days after I did that, I was served a labor investigation on every single one of my businesses in California, even single member LL LCs that had absolutely no employees. It was just this blanket investigation. It cost me upwards of six figures to fight it legally. It dragged on for a year or so. I'll tell you what, you want to know when it was disintegrated, when it just went away and nobody said anything about it after our attorneys were going back and forth and back and forth, trying to understand the trigger or the impetus behind the investigation, which none of them could say. We were trying to get subpoenas to find out because we knew that it came down from Newsom's office. It was when his recall was approved, suddenly it completely went away.

I can't believe that story.

That's hideous. Oh, it's unbelievable.

How have you not sued? I mean, it's illegal. I mean, they're clearly targeting you for your political beliefs.

Well, because in theory, it falls underneath the purview of the basic California investigation. There's no real... They can do whatever they want, and they can investigate and audit, and they can claim that perhaps a single employee was a whistleblower, whether or not that's the case. There's a lot of... Because the California, it doesn't operate under the basic principle of freedom that we think is inherent in the Constitution. The California legislature is the biggest boulder blocking any of our freedoms, and they'll get in the way such that they'll bleed you dry. It's the classic bureaucratic approach in which they're just going to bleed you out of as much money as possible with red tape and layers and layers and layers of a headache that eventually when it goes away, you sigh a breath of fresh air and you say, Thank God, I only spent $200,000 on that.

That's a really hideous story, and I'm really sorry that happened to you, Chef Groal. I really I just think that's abhorrent. But I do want to move on to more holiday stuff, if you don't mind. Christmas time is here. One of the sad and hard parts about Christmas time is that food inflation is at an all-time high. People just normally are having a hard time paying for groceries in general, let alone if they want to do a nice holiday Christmas dinner for their family. I know you have suggestions on how to stretch a holiday meal when you're on a budget. Maybe for some of our listeners who have this challenge this year, what advice can you give them?

I would say, first and foremost, go for frozen cuts, frozen pieces of meat. That's not a bad thing. We've mastered the ability to freeze proteins and thaw them properly so that you really can't tell the difference. Perhaps in a restaurant setting, but not for home cooking. That's one thing. I think that there actually is a lot of supply right now in the grand grocery distribution space where they have stocked up, so you're seeing lower prices. Also, going for some of these off cuts. I talk about this a a lot through my social in terms of how to make these off cuts delicious. Typically, off cuts of meat. When I say off cuts, we know the prime rib, we know the tenderloin and filet. These are your famous center plate cuts. But things like the top round or the top sirloin, the picciana, the flat iron steak or the mock tender, skirt steak, flank steak, these are all lesser known cuts that are typically much less expensive. One of the reasons why they're lesser known cuts is because they might have a little bit more chew to them based on the fact that they from parts of a steer where they get more motion.

They've got more muscle, therefore, they've got more marbling and connective tissue. Well, it's that marbling and connective tissue that is the flavor. That's why a filet isn't that flavorful, but it's incredibly tender because the collagen that breaks down in the connective tissue is what develops all that flavor. If you buy some of these off cuts and you just do a nice slow roast on these things and then finish it with high heat at the end, you can turn an otherwise inexpensive, lesser known cut into something incredibly soft, watering, tender, craved-worthy and delicious just by using heat the proper way and then finishing it with a really good sauce that's a lot of herbs, a lot of fresh vinegar or citrus in there to make the flavors pop. It's not that difficult. It's a fun time of the year to play with some of these little known cuts and to play with dishes that you otherwise haven't cooked with before. Because at the end of the day, the cooking is the fun part, right? Experimenting and learning your own style and technique. That's what brings people together, especially if you're doing in a group setting in a family setting.

Well, I love that. I know that you just mentioned you have four children, which, congratulations. I just have two, and it's kicking my butt right now. One of the biggest stressors for me is coming up is trying to make holiday meals interesting that I want to eat, and my husband want to eat, but also that my kids will eat. They're not super picky eaters, but my three-year-old is in this stage where she's just much more into pasta than salmon that I would like. Do you have any ideas for a meal that looks impressive but is actually easy to make and that kids will like?

Any type of casserole, or large gratin, one pot dish, because you want to break meat up and you mix all the ingredients together. But what I've noticed with kids, the most important thing is if they're involved in the cooking process, they'll eat it. Oh, really? My kids didn't like seafood, but when I started to teach them how to cook and how to work with it and actually cook it themselves, there was a level of pride there that overtook their preconceived notion of, Ooh, fish is icky, so it's theirs. There's an ownership there. They're empowered, and then they want to eat it. Just getting kids involved in the process of cooking. One of the ways in which you can do that is by adding ingredients to a casserole dish, topping it with cheese, baking it. You got to grab some of the low-line fruit, the cheese, the butter, the fatty stuff that kids love, which nowadays we know in many cases actually isn't as bad for us as we had originally thought. When you're making these things, Whether it's taking a whole roast of chicken and just letting the kids pick away at the chicken and pull all the meat off the bones.

That's fun for kids. Mixing it into a casserole dish with a lot of different flavors, sauces, throwing cheese on top, baking it, getting that nice beautiful crust on there, and letting the kids help serve it. I think that when they get involved through that process, they're a lot more energized about trying different foods and flavors.

I love that idea, and I'm 100% going to implement that over the next few days. We are also coming up on New Year's. Christmas is a time for a lot of people are drinking and imbibing. No judgment. It's great. I probably will have a little bit of champagne myself. I hate being hung over so much. It's what has stopped me from drinking since I've had kids because my tolerance just isn't the same. Anthony Berdane famously said that his hangover cure was, Aspirin, Coca-Cola, smoke a joint, and sushuan food. I also don't smoke weed, so put that where it is. Do you have a hangover cure for people that are listening of something they can do if they drink a little too much?

Oh, that's a funny question. You know what? I'm right there with you on that. My wife and I joke now. We're like, It's just impossible. Two glasses of wine, and the next morning, we're arm wrestling over who's getting up to take care of the kids.

That is my life. I can't do it anymore. I cannot do it anymore.

It really is. But you know what? It's a good thing in the long run. We had our time, and maybe in 20 years, you can start again. But I think the key is, number one, you got to drink water. You got to drink water throughout the meals. If water is boring, sparkling water with different types of fresh fruit juices, just to keep that hydration going, because at the end of the day, it's all just hydration. Then the next morning, I'm a fan of pancakes and all of those items. We can get into the science about whether or not it exacerbates a hangover. But if you mix some oak in there and doing the oatmeal mix or the oatmeal pancakes, you're absorbing a lot of that and you're introducing the positive sugars into your body to help push that hangover out. But once again, I think it's still pretty simple, just like a glass of water in between every glass of wine. Drinking a lot of water before you go to bed is really important. I've seen that. I bring a level of expertise to this that goes beyond just being a parent. It's also having been a chef for many years in the kitchens and having to learn to teach my young cooks how to get rid of their hangover so that they show up for work the next day.

Well, I wanted to ask you what inspired you to become a chef? Again, you have such success everywhere. Everyone knows your name. Now being a chef, it's so funny since The Bear, that show that came out that's been so popular, I think people think being a chef is just very, very cool. Even the Yes Chef, Yes Chef thing that they say on that show, I actually bought a sweater that says Yes Chef on it, which is so funny. Do you still love being a chef? Do you still love working in the restaurant industry? And did you watch The Bear?

I did not watch The Bear, and I'll tell you why. It's just like when I do that day in and day out, it's just It's really difficult for me to watch that stuff, especially when it's produced, although I've heard that it's a pretty good representation. When I grew up working in the industry, it was not this Hollywood, glamorous, sexy industry. It was still very much about putting in 16 to 18 hours a day, getting berated and verbally abused by everybody in the kitchen. It was not a safe workplace, but things have changed. I love being in the kitchen and being a chef just because I love people. I I love the community. I love the dynamic. I think that it's an amazing industry where you can actually take somebody who otherwise wasn't given a path forward, whether it's because of their upbringing, whether it's because of their financial status, and everybody Everybody's equal. All you have to do is just show that you want it. You can very quickly accelerate vertically into management and into regional management into these jobs without a college degree. It's all about what you put in and what you take out.

The restaurant industry as well is an area in which you have so many people of versatile backgrounds who come together for a part-time job. How many people have worked in the restaurant industry, whether they're struggling actors or actresses or whether they're working a day job to make ends meet, and then they do a couple of serving shifts at night. You have this very, very, very diverse and dynamic population of people all working under one roof for the same thing. It's such a cool way to bring people of all different walks of life together. That's what was attracting to me, getting in the kitchen. I actually went to a small liberal arts college up in Maine, studying philosophy and piano performance originally. I always worked in restaurants. As my job, when I got to college, to have spending money, I continued working in restaurants. Then I realized at that point in life where I was examining what I wanted to do, and there was more to life than just partying and having fun, how much I loved spending time in the kitchen, and I didn't want to waste any time money at college if that wasn't what I wanted to do.

I left and just fully immersed myself in the kitchen and ultimately went back to culinary school and then business school to follow through on food service management and food marketing degree after doing my apprenticeship. It was somewhat serendipitous that I ended up in this as my career because that wasn't the original path, but it was the people and it was the community that kept me here.

Do you have a favorite chef or any inspiration?

Definitely Anthony Bourdaine, since you've said that. I think that the guy is brilliant and he's spoken openly about things outside of the food service industry. But what I like about his perspective, and Gordon Ramsey as well, and there's Marco Pierre-White, and Jacques Papin is one of my favorites from a culinary perspective and just a personality. He was one of those original dump and stir, CBS-style cooking shows in the '80s and the '90s and has since gone on to become a father or an icon in the industry. But for me, it's about not just the food, but food is community. We know from restaurants and dishes and recipes and cooking at home and all of that is that food is the great unifier. You learn more about a culture of a country through their food. Food is also something that brings people together, as I just described. People of all different walks of life, political persuasions, opinions, anything. But when you're talking about food, it's a great conduit through which you can bring opinions together. One of the ways in which I talk about politics is through food, because understanding the way in which food is produced and processed and distributed and flows through this centralized government is a very good way in which you can express to people how, in many cases, a big government can get in the way of good in the way in which we overregulate or overprocess food, and then ultimately that distills into health care.

Just as a general calculus, food is the best medium through which to approach these things. Like I said, going back to your original question, the Bourdains of the world, and Gordon Ramsey is doing a lot more of it, especially through his travel shows. It's a wonderful way. Those were wonderful personalities that brought more to it than just the recipe.

My final question for you is you have been really outspoken and very brave, and brave during a time when it was hard to get people to speak out about, again, just how detrimental so many of the COVID rules and lockdowns and just the environment the country was in, how much it hurting all of us. I can remember I was super pregnant during the pandemic, and I can remember watching you on TV and being just so grateful and so relieved that there was someone in California who was saying all the things I thought, and then also at the same time being worried that it would impact your career, your family, or your restaurants negatively. What has this journey going into a space where you're not just a chef, but you're also a political figure as well in some way, and someone that people really look to on social media to speak for people who don't have voices? What has that journey been like for you as well?

It's been a little nerve-wracking, especially when you're raising a family and you've got four kids. You take on risk in doing so. As you know, when you have a family and you're thinking about not just yourself but other people, your appetite for risk perhaps goes down a little bit. We both are very principled and agree that backing down is never the answer. But you also need to do so in a way. You I need to talk about these issues in a way that aren't necessarily hurtful. By that, I mean, you don't always have to target the person. Talk about the policy and be open-minded. I try and introduce a perspective where, yes, I'm very opinionated in the idea that I think a big government has many, many unintended consequences that disproportionately affect many Americans. I can prove that and show that, like I said, through food. But I I also think that there's a certain decorum and community that still needs to exist that we've lost a little bit of. If I can be a voice to show, once again, through food, that we can have these open and honest conversations, you don't need to hate each other, well, then that's much bigger than just opening a restaurant and having a business.

That's an example or a North Star that other people can follow to say, Yeah, maybe it is better to just sit down over food and have this conversation, and we can disagree, but we don't need to turn on our neighbors.

Yeah, I I completely agree with that. I just want to thank you for taking time out so close to Christmas to talk to me, talk to my audience about all of these things. You can follow Chef Andrew Groll's Substack called American Gravy. You are a restauranteur, an all-around raconteur. I just want to thank you so much for taking time out to talk to me today.

Thank you so much. It's an honor, and I really appreciate it. Tell Ben I said hello.

I will, and come back anytime you want. Thank you so much, Chef Groll.

Thank you.

Thank you all so much for listening to me, Megan McCain, today. Megan McCain has entered the chat. This is our last episode of the 2023 year. We will be back, fresh, bright-eyed, bushy-tailed after New Year's. I just want to thank you so much. This podcast has only been on a few months, and we are so proud of the numbers we are getting, the guests we are getting, and the content we are all creating here. This has really just been such a privilege College, such a highlight of 2023. I honestly can't believe at this stage in my life, I still get paid to talk and have an opinion. It is the greatest gift and the greatest gig in the entire world, period. I would like to give a special shout out to my seventh-grade English teacher for saying I talk too much in class because you, in fact, can talk too much for a living. On that note, I am wishing you a very happy, blessed, healthy, Merry, Merry, Merry Christmas, Happy holidays, and Happy, Happy New Year. We will be back, and I will see you in 2024. Thanks for listening to this episode of Megan McCain has entered the chat brought to you by Teton Ridge.

I am your host and executive producer, Megan McCain. Additional executive producers are Miranda Wilkins, Eric Spiegelman, and Wyn Wigal. Our supervising producer is Olivia DeCopoulos. Our senior guest producer is Kara Kaplin, and associate producer, Austin Goodman.