Megan McCain has entered the chat. Welcome to Megan McCain has Entered the Chat with me, Megan McCain. What a wild show. I got to admit you, we already taped it. I'm doing the intro after we have the infamous David Axelrod, Political genius, and then my friend Ryan Gordesky, who is the founder of the 1776 Project Pack, and just an overall fascinating meeting person in politics. So much fun today, Miranda. How cool is this job? I really love podcasting. I should have done it earlier. I just thought it was an oversaturated market, and there wouldn't be a place for us. Turns out there is. Turns out we have the best people ever that get to come on.

It seems like it was just a lot of bros talking with each other about a they saw the other day, and it's just a really weird, boring space a lot of the times.

And this is so not that.

I mean, David Oxerod's voice was so So soothing, but not boring.

Everything he had to say was so interesting. And then Ryan was just so much fun. We talked to him for a really long time.

And honestly, if we didn't have a schedule to keep, I could have listened to him for another three hours.

Every story he tells is fascinating. Yeah. Ryan, who is still in here, he's sitting over there. Ryan should have his own podcast. Very smart. I'm about to say, if he doesn't have a podcast, that's a crime. Yes, 100 %. So like I said, I just feel so grateful that we're able to do this job. So We're grateful to have such cool people come on and say yes. We're having so much fun. Podcasting is so much fun. It's really the best job. Reminds me of my wonderful days in radio with you, Miranda. So much better. So much better. Because we can swear. Yes, we can swear. I guess let's get started. And I promise, I know Miranda and I need to catch up on air, and we just haven't had time because we've had scheduling issues. And I know people are asking me for that, too. More Miranda. We're going to get to it. We've just been having tight schedules with guests and things recently, so we're working on it. So many I have some people, but I have thoughts about the Real Housewives of Atlanta that I need to talk to you about. Okay, I promise you on Monday.

Yes, we will get to it. Okay, I want to hear these thoughts. All right, with that, let's get started. Welcome back to Megan McCain has I heard the chat. I'm so excited. I have an in-studio guest. Very, very exciting. My friend Ryan Gordusky, who is the founder of the 1776 Project Pack. I'm going to say this, even though it's five years old, you're the co-author of They're Not Listening: How the Elites Created the National Populus Revolution. Thank you so much for coming in studio.

Thank you for having me. I'm so excited. Oh, my gosh. I texted Ben this morning. I'm like, I got to do a good job.

Yeah, you were friends with my husband first, and then he said you have to be friends with him. Oh, okay. And I was like, okay, great, because he knows my taste in people.

Ben's great, though. And we talked. And Ben's really smart at understanding the media aspect of how the media is taking political angles in a really unique way that many people are not.

How did you become friends with him?

I have no idea. I know we met at a bar one day, and we really vibed. And it was just... I think I have a good assessment of people who are smart, and I respect smart people more than anything else, because not many people I think are... You listen to him in politics. Do you ever listen to them and say, Oh, that's something I never thought of. Very rarely, I find. Most people I find them like, Okay, I've heard all these talking points before.

What's weird in this industry, and I don't know if you found this, actually, Ben and I were just talking about this the other day, is that there's a lot of failed theater kids and failed actors that become political commentators. And I don't know about you. I resent that. I didn't fail at anything before I did this. I wasn't trying to be an entertainer. Why do you think so many people come from entertainment shift thinking, and they're not very good at it? It's always mediocre. But what is that?

And I was talking about this about influencers the other day. I talked to Jonathan Swam yesterday. We were talking about this, and I said to him- He's so smart. He's so smart. He's really, really bright. Is he at the New York Times now? He's at the New York Times, yeah. He's with Maggie I'm going to do the presidential races. And I said to him that because the mainstream media has failed so epically in ways that they shouldn't have, even with COVID coverage, it became too political, and they were giving out bad information, and no one really trusts the mainstream media, there is a model out there now, where if you are slightly entertaining and you are perceived as the purveyor of truth to 2,000 people, 4,000, 5,000 people, you can make a real living, a really good living in a way you couldn't make it if you were a performer, and you were probably a or a bad performer. And that's the model. And I think that's really toxic to our politics because you have to feed those 10,000 people the purest heroine possible. They'll find it from somebody else. So they just make up lies or they will tell the most absurd things.

And it's really created a very, very gross marketplace. And you see it a lot on Twitter, especially. And you have to feed your audience constantly because it's your lifeblood. You have no other skills, maybe.

How did you end up in this industry? And how did you end up founding a pack? That's such an intense thing to do.

Yeah, it's all by a mistake. I was going to college, and this is such a New York crazy thing. The New York City Council is 51 Council members. My great aunt was the best friend to one of them, a woman named Helen Sears, who's still alive. And Helen's PR guy killed himself in the office. And I was 19 years old. I know this is like, but this is... Anyway, she called my aunt, my aunt Susie. My aunt Susie said, That's terrible. You should hire my nephew. He's so smart. And she hired me, I had no qualifications. I was still in college. And I said, Oh, this is... I had no training. And I was like, PR is not that hard. It's not that difficult. I could actually do this. And I was working Victoria's Secret before in Fitting Bras. I'm like, This is way better than working in Victoria's Secret. And I went from that job to working for a state senator and then working for the Michael Bloomberg re-election campaign. And it just kept on going. There wasn't a plan. And then I was like, I've heard so many bad media reports about politics.

I was like, I'm I'm not going to write about politics now. I'm not going to do it with campaigns. And I switched to... I worked for the Washington Examiner from 2015 to 2017. I was covering the Bernie phrase and covering Trump, and I was like, Trump's going to win, and Bernie supporters are not going to Hillary. And I was going to Bernie rallies, and I would ask them constantly, the supporters, if Bernie doesn't win on election day, will you get drunk and vote for Hillary? And in the beginning, one in 10 were saying no, and at the end, nine in 10 were saying no. The hatred where Hillary was growing to such an intensity that I was like, they're not coming home. There's no way at this point, the bounce that they don't like her. But I really got to understand Bernie supporters. And I'm like, I didn't agree with a lot of them, but I understood them in a way that I think was really important. I cover a lot of Trump stuff. And I'm from a middle class, Queens, no college education background. And people in my neighborhood, you could put them in Ohio, you could put them in Wisconsin.

It's the same people, just different accents. And I really knew that voter very well. So I was working I'm across from Bill Crystal, and no one liked me in the office. Why? Because they were all like, no, this is not going to... You're wrong. You're wrong. And then I remember the day after the election, I walked in ear to ear smiling. I was like, I nailed it. I'm going to get a promotion. They'll book me on TV more. And they brought in other people from other networks, other papers to do that job that I thought I would get. And I was like, I'm not doing this industry anymore. This sucks. So I went back to politics. And the pack was my godson during COVID. Everyone's going to school at home. His teacher made him read Race Cars, and it happened in our town, which in the book Race Cars is about policemen only follow black cars. They don't follow white cars. And it's all about... It was an eighth-year-old class. So all the kids are at home. They're learning from home. So the moms heard it and they flipped, including my aunt, my godson's mother, and said to me, What do we do about this?

We called the PTA, the principal. And I was like, This is probably a much bigger deal in this one classroom. And I had done enough politics and I had media connections where I said, Okay, I'll start a pack. I have no billionaire donors. I called my friends at Axios. I said, Will you cover me going on a pack? And they said, yeah. So they wrote up my Axios. Tucker Carlson had me on the next day. Tucker said, go donate to him. And I raised 100 grand. And then I had an assistant named Brian. I go, find me school board candidates. Let's look. And we found 58 and 42 on that first year. That's incredible. Yeah. And now, Now we're the number 22 pack on Wynred. Congratulations. Yeah, thank you. We did 200 candidates last year.

That is so incredible. I think that issue in particular is so important, too. I have two young kids, as you know, and it petrifies me. It sounds intense, but I do believe there's some levels of indoctrination happening, especially when you hear about books like that, things like that.

As I grew in this in the education space, which is really unique because we're not conservative people, but like, conservative industry doesn't respect education, really. It's all school choice, school choice, school choice, or homeschool your kids.

Fine. That's not an option for me, by the way.

That's not an option for most people.

That has been shoved down my throat. And again, no disrespect to homeschoolers.

No, not at all.

But it's not realistic for all women. A hundred %. We're not all trad wives at home, like the ballerina farm making pasta from scratch.

It's not possible. I like my work. Also, there is importance to public education. It is important. It is the melting pot. And in rural America, there are no private schools. It's only public schools, and they're the number one employer. So I did a poll last year for the PAC and about what's your number one issue? And school safety was by far the number one issue. And the fear of bullying, and not bullying, but violence inside school from other students and a lot of things. So we launched a C3, a nonprofit this year, and we just got our board together, and we're just beginning it. But we're going to look at really examining education, a full 360 degree angle, and what are conservative values that can answer some of the systemic problems in education.

I think that's incredible. And I'm really grateful you're doing that work, sincerely. I want to ask you, an issue that has really gotten a lot of attention in DC the last week is, I'm sure you've read about this, but a former Trump official named Mike Gill was carjacked and shot and killed at 5:30 in the evening outside of City Center, which, by the way, is this really high-end, beautiful, very expensive stores like Hermes and Tiffany's in it and nice restaurants. I personally go to dinner there. I've actually brought my children over that area. It's really freaked me out. I left New York City because I was worried about the same things I'm now really worried about here, like violence, cultural issues. Again, I just don't know what we do in situations like this, and you're still living in New York. What do you think can be done about these mayors who are just turning our cities into these extremely violent, scary places? I don't know if it's just this issue because he's a well-known person in this town, but it really has rocked the DC community.

Well, I spoke to a guy named Dave Sunday, who's running for attorney general in Pennsylvania. And the way that Pennsylvania works is that the attorney general has very few powers over municipalities, except for one, specifically given to him, which is Philadelphia, because so often the DAs don't do anything in Philadelphia, and the DAs can step in in that case. For Washington DC, it is a federal place. It's not a state. I don't know why then an attorney general can't come in and sit there and do the job the mayors clearly won't do. I don't stay in DC anymore. I stay in Virginia. I will not stay in the city. Really? Yeah, I won't. I mean, in New York, the good thing is I live in Queens is that our DA is different than Manhattan DA. The Manhattan DA is horrendous. The Queens is actually pretty good. Are they Republican? No. Only Staten Island has a Republican. No, he's a Democrat, too. But he's really good, the Staten Island one. But she's Melinda Katz. She's just an old-school Democrat, and she's not woke. My old classmate ran against I went to high school with this woman named Tiffany Gavan, and she was like, We're going to decriminalize property crime.

I'm like, Oh, my God. What? Yeah. And she came real close to winning. Oh, my God. It was awful.

Why would anyone want that?

That's crazy. Because property crime isn't real. Because properties, these people, they're way down the rat hole.

I thought if they're messing up your house, it's real, right?

I'm bashing in your windows. Yeah, I think. But the attorney general has to step in then and sit there and say, I have to crack down on crime in DC. And you know what? It's so small. Hillary, back in the '90s, when she said it is a small class of super predators, it's like 100 people that commit 80 % of the shootings. Is that true? Yes. And I know in New York, it's like a thousand people commit 75 % of all the shootings in the whole city of nine million people. It is so microscopic. I don't understand why they can't just sit there and crack down on these 100 to 200 people who are doing these things.

Ryan, I personally, in my life, no, four people have been carjacked here.

That's insane.

In my life, including, by the way, my hair stylist who does my color, not that, whatever, and who has a salon in Georgetown and was putting plants and flowers outside her salon. Obviously, make it beautiful for spring. Got her fucking car carjacked. That's insane. Whatever. I have a permission to tell this story because I've asked before because I don't want to... I post who I go to, whatever. But carjacked right outside her nice salon. A man who works at Fox with my husband, same thing, carjacked coming out of Fox. In DC?

Mm-hmm. That's crazy. In all my years in New York- These are all in DC? Yeah. I was only ever attempted to be mugged once. In 35 years, so 36 years. So it's been... That's not that often. To know four people in a period of what, a year, two years? Three years. Three years. Okay. That's still a lot of people for your personal... I know their phone number. I know that. That's crazy.

I stopped sending my daughter to a playgroup in Georgetown because I was too scared that she would get carjacked. It was like carjacked in the car. Maybe that sounds like paranoid, white woman stuff. People can judge whatever they want. I'm not putting my kids in danger.

In the city of Chicago, something like 60 % of Black kids have witnessed shootings. My God. People have been so conditioned to accept horrible things. So when you go and you travel other places, I travel for work, I'm like, We don't have to live like this. Other places don't all live like we live. And we can have... If El Salvador could turn around to lead the worst crime ever, and we're not even close to El Salvador, why are we doing this?

Are you New York or no place?

No, I want to leave, but I don't know where. Okay. I'm just spoiled from New York. Where else would I go?

Well, I used to have that attitude, too. And then the Black Lives Matter riots happened, and I was like, goodbye. I'm not people. And I was also like, this city does not want me.

Yeah. No, they don't want me either. It's just finding the place that you would go.

They're like, Republicans Why?

Yeah, no. Because my grandmother always say, You leave New York, you leave the world. And I have a lot of that mentality. You're born and raised, too. It's a different thing. I'm a seventh-generation Newyorker. Oh, well, that's different. My family has been here forever. Before, I think the early 1800s, they came to New York. That's incredible. Yeah, they've been there forever.

Like gangs of New York style?

Like gangs of New York style, Irish-Italian immigrants getting there and just living there forever. I live around the corner from my mom who lives, of course, from her mom. We don't even move. I love that. Oh, I know. It's terrible.

I love that, though. Do you? I love that. My in-laws live down the street from us, and just even having them to... My mother-in-law is going to take my daughter swimming on a Friday. It's just nice to have family there.

Do they love being close to the grandkids?

Yes, but my daughter is going through a phase right now where she's very, very needy about her grandparents, and we have to FaceTime them in the morning and at night, and they're being very nice and patient and sweet about it.

But she'll remember that forever.

Yeah. It's great. Again, not to be macabre. I'm down one grandfather, so it's like having them around. It's like nice. Anyway, I get it. Can we switch to politics a little bit? Yeah, go ahead. Yeah. Okay. So I wanted to ask you, which I did ask David Axelrod earlier. Nbc has this just horrific poll of Biden that now Trump is leading Biden 47 to 42. It's a nine-point lead. It's the biggest lead Trump has ever had over Biden. Biden has the lowest approval rating of any President since President Bush's second term at the height of the Iraq war. The most disturbing part for Biden should be that Trump is holding a 16-point advantage over Biden on being competent and effective, which is so insane, and that now they're evenly tied 42 to 41 with the Latino vote. I mean, if you're a Democrat, how are you not just panicking? I know we're not supposed to believe in polls, but this is really bad.

I don't believe in polls. I do, too, by the way. I don't not believe in polls. I'm not one of those people either.

I'm not one of those people either. People are always like, Oh, polls don't mean anything.

I'm like, But posters have a job for a reason. Polls are not never wrong. This is an NBC poll. This is an NBC poll. Nbc is a high-quality poll. It's not a bad polling for them. There are a few polling firms. I don't listen to YouGov, but there are some polling firms. I will always listen and say, Okay, this means something. This is not nothing. What's her face from Iowa? Seltzer. Okay, this is not nothing. She's never wrong, almost. So this means something. She's really She's really good. She's really good. She is definitely the queen of Iowa, which I don't know if it means much, but it's still something. It's pretty cool. Yeah. No, I know.

I'm the princess of Arizona. I texted you the first time I went to Arizona.

I'm like, I'm in your country.

That nickname everywhere I go, everything's always like, Oh, the Princess of Arizona is here. People that don't know is a joke on Saturday Night Live that's not meant to be flattering. I know, but it's so funny. But it's been reversed into this thing. Michael Miles is always like, My Princess of Arizona's Here, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, Okay, I don't need that.

I don't think it's flattering. I don't know.

They did not mean it in a flattering way.

I know, but whatever.

Ead Bryant did not do a nice interpretation of me at all.

I still sent the bitch flowers, though. My friend used to be the head writer at SNL for 25 years, and he retired in 2016, and he always talks about how bad it is now.

Yeah, I was like, What does he think now?

He thinks it's awful. He literally will be like, I cannot believe. All he does all day is watch MSNBC and comment on how bad it is, and send me emails of the updates of what everyone said. But Jim Downey is his name. He's brilliant. I love Jim Downey. Oh, you do? Jim is so funny.

I used to intern at Saturday Night Live in college, and he is so nice to intern. Tell him that. I will. He was so nice to be here. I remember one time, he was carrying a bunch of pizzas, and he helped me. Okay. Fyi. That's nice. No, he's a very nice man.

He's a very nice man. He's a very funny man. Being funny is hard. Like writing funny jokes for other people, especially, is super hard.

Would he be mad you're exposing him for not liking SNL now?

I don't know. He's not going to care. He's retired. He's got this thing with his M-Eazle and in his house and they're polishing them all day. Like, he doesn't care.

That was actually one of my topics coming up was about Shane Gillis, the actor, the comedian. I can't really name him on. So people who don't know. It's a comedian who was hired by Saturday Night Live, who was fired three, four days later because of, quote, events of tweets. He has since become a mega star. Yeah.

His autism books are so funny.

So funny. They're so funny. So funny. He's a genius. He's going back to host in two weeks. I know. What does this mean? What does a Jim Downey think? And what does it mean? Is it cancel culture's funeral, which is what some people are calling it on Twitter and social media? And is SNL acknowledging in some way that... And I should say Shane Gillis is very beloved by Conservatives and Conservatives circles. Is it an acknowledgement that maybe they've gone the wrong direction? And then last final question, is Bowen Yang going to show up?

Oh, that's a good question. He's going to show up. I didn't even think of that. I would just sit there. I mean, SNL is only getting any traction now when they're either so bad, like with the Ali Stefanik, like Israel It was just not funny. It's just so not funny.

Also, you think anti-Semitism is hilarious?

How is she the pun? They could have made a joke about the college presidents, but the target was Elise Stefanic. It was so stupid. And then once in a while, they have a really hilarious- Wait, sorry to interject.

Did you see that Cécile Strong was supposed to be in the sketch and pulled out at the last minute? She wasn't comfortable with it. Really? Allegedly, according to page 6, yes, Cécile Strong was supposed to play at least to fanic it. And then the last minute, maybe was like, maybe making fun out of anti-Semitism is not- Is she Jewish? I have no idea.

You don't have to be Jewish. No, I know. No, I know that. But I was curious. No, I didn't know that. That's really interesting. I don't know if it's the death of cancel culture, but it definitely means... I mean, if he brought people's eyes to it, like the Grammys, the last Grammys that came up, it was genuinely good because it wasn't political, really, except one little thing, and it was high-quality talent. I think there's a really yearning for that where you're like, I just want to be entertained, and I don't want someone screaming at me constantly and make me feel bad or think about it. That's Or virtue signaling. Or virtue signaling constantly, but how good you are. I have a friend who's a Tony Award winner, and I'm not going to say his name, but he would tell me what they were saying in these closed-door meetings. He's like, Ryan, all of these people don't have any Black friends, but they're all like... Social justice for you. Exactly. Horrible. He's like, They would never have me at their house if I didn't have a poll, sir. It's so funny. It's so, so good. Anyway, we're going to go back to the poll for a second.

So the polling is- Oh, sure. Yeah, the polling... I'm sorry, my brain. The polling is- Wait, final point on Saturday Night Live.

Okay, go ahead. Do you think they'll try coming up the next election? It's looking like Trump might be President again. Do you think you're going to try and give a shit about Republicans watching?

I think because he's not President, they do. I think if Roseanne was recast when Trump wasn't President, her tweet wouldn't have gotten her canceled. Sure. I think that Trump getting elected is so triggering to them. So he's not there. I think Trump's not in a lot of people's minds outside people who either love him or hate him. Because no one goes on Truth Social. I used to do hits on Fox in 2016, and they would stop me mid-sentence to show Trump's newest tweet. We're not doing that anymore. No. And I think that even when he says deranged things, no one's paying attention to a certain point where they were all paying attention. It was breaking news every single second.

Can I tell you something? Obviously, everyone knows how I feel about Trump. Yeah. The only thing that I would get pleasure out of Trump winning is the cable news asshole and the media people having to deal with it. Because whatever, the Jake Tapper, the George Stefanopoulos, the entire cast of The View. No, I mean, I will enjoy that. That's the only thing I'll enjoy. I will probably- You weren't there in '16, were you? No. No, they hired me right after the election.

Okay, because they had that special night where they were like, Oh, Hillary's going to win. And then they didn't. And then they had the Trump impersonator. It was so great to rewatch.

People should rewatch it. And then they were supposed to have a bunch of balloons drop, and they I didn't. My understanding is they all got drunk, like the cast. You had to, right?

Yeah. No, the media freakouts of the 2016 election, I have rewatched that for years.

It's very good. It's so hilarious.

It's so hilarious. But I think a lot of them are thinking that he is going to win. I mean, I spoke to a lot of reporters who are definitely Democrats in their personal life, and they all think he's going to win.

How are they going to reconcile, though, that everything... Seth Meyers can't do it anymore. All the thousands of monologs you've done, it It didn't matter. He might be get reelected. How do you reconcile with the fact that... I don't know what I would do if I felt like nothing I did mattered at all. The American public were like, Go fuck yourself, or having this guy again, which is why I always try to be measured when I cover him and talk about it. So what happens to our media?

Well, but they don't clearly care. The profit motive is clearly not the incentive, because if it were, Roseanne wouldn't have gotten killed. She would have been dealt with. There are celebrities who say way worse things than what she tweeted, and they're dealt with, and then they go back to their show. They're reprimanded. They have to do something. They apologize, donate to charity, whatever. And then they go back to the show. She had 20 million live viewers in 2017. That wasn't even close to what was happening anywhere. Big Bang Theory never was close to that, and they ran for 27,000 years.

Yeah, it was like a wild success, right?

It was 1990 numbers. It was numbers that no one would possibly get, and they just didn't care for the profit motive. I think that one, Hollywood is very strapped for cash. The streaming services have really hurt a lot of industries, a lot of writers I know in Los Angeles are not making a living. They're not getting rebooked on shows.

They do a shit on Republicans all day long.

It's not entertaining. It's not entertaining. And I think if anything was, the things that did break through, there's clearly a market. You could see in the last 20 years, Besides Roseanne, Duck dynasty was the biggest reality show for years and years and years and years on what was it, A&E or something like that? It was a gigantic hit, and all it was was a wholesome family with wacky things, but they weren't openly trying to be... There's a market for that. There's a market for just nice wholesomeness and not woke nonsense, and everyone has to have... Everyone's a transgender person or something crazy within a family. And that's also why the Sex and City reboot failed. It's terrible. Because no one wanted to see the family that everyone's divorcing and trans and the kids. And no one wants... You can all relax. It's all okay. You don't have to... No one lives like this. No one on Earth lives the way that they are portraying real life.

Back to the polls. You just said you're talking to people off the record that are saying they're worried about it. Do you think Biden can rebound?

I think Biden is going to win.

You do? Okay, tell me why. Then I guess all the people in the media can have them.

No, no, no, no, no. And then maybe they're all right. I think it's probably 60, 40 Biden wins. I think that the institutional support is going to matter. Presence, re-elections matter to a certain... Listen, the economy, I don't care what they're saying, is shit for a lot of people. Inflation is really for a lot of people. Oh, yeah. The border thing is a disaster. But the point that I go back to is, one, like Georgia, the demographics of Georgia have changed so dramatically. Atlanta, Metro region is- Arizona, too. Yeah, that matters. That does matter. When Bush went to Wynette County in 2004, 66 %, it was a 60 % white county. It's a 29 % white county now. And the population has grown tremendously. We did school boards, we looked at school boards in public schools in Maricopa. And I think there were Five or six major white majority schools in all public schools in Maricopa, which is a majority of the state of Arizona. The populations have changed, and you have to reflect that change. And I think that certainly the black vote, Biden will probably get around 90 %. Younger black voters are not as Democrat as older black voters are, but still 90 %, about 88, 87, whatever.

The Latina vote, I think, is more up for grabs. But if Trump gets 44 %, which is around the Bush numbers in '04, which would be We're breaking. Most of the important swing states outside Arizona, Nevada, and Texas, I'm talking North Carolina, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, New Hampshire, are- Ohio. Ohio, 90 % black-white states. Their demographics have not changed tremendously. A lot of Latinos either are not registered, they're illegal, or they're too young to vote. It is 90 % black-white states. So we have traded Republicans a lot of non- College-educated Whites, which there are more of for... And we lost the College-educated Whites. But College-educated are the highest propensity voters that there are. And in the New York Times Santa Poll that was just released previously, Trump is at the lowest level with college-educated Whites since Barry Goldwater Jr. In 1964. Shut up. He's down 23 points.

I don't- Look, I'm one of those people. I mean, I'm not voting for Biden, but like- I get it, but I know a lot of people like that.

I was with my aunt yesterday, and she's been a Republican since she registered to vote. She's 59 years old, and she's not voting for Trump. She's not voting for Biden either, but she's like, I just can't. She's like, he's too manic for me. And I understand. I understand people who love him and go into the gates of hell for him, but I understand people who are just, I can't do this anymore. So that will matter. Losing that many college-educated Whites in those states will matter. You're not going to make up for the black vote. The only chance is to of non- College-Educated Whites, which there are more of, show up and vote. In 2016, there were 44 million non- College-Educated Whites in America who were not registered to vote. Let's say if you died, whatever, let's say it's 35 million. Well, 35 million are not registered to vote. There is no effort on the part of the RNC, the Trump campaign, the DeSantis campaign, the Nikki Haley campaign, to register those voters, to get people who don't have a history of voting active in voting. And they're not just going to vote because Trump manifestsends that you have to actually engage these people to pull them out of their houses.

And maybe they'll have a campaign for that, but I don't know. I really don't know. And I think that that will ultimately matter in these very important swing days. So he could win Arizona again. He may be able to win Wisconsin or whatever, but I just have a very tough time seeing the collar counties of Philadelphia and Pittsburgh area. And the rural areas have been depopulating.

Can I ask you, Ronna McDaniel, it's rumored Ronna Romney McDaniel, who goes by McDaniel now, is now being booted off the head of the RNC. There was reports that she was using money for Botox and makeup. A quarter of a million in flowers. I mean, it's just insane. I mean, it's just like, I don't understand how things like that even happen. Do you think how much of the problem with not realizing exactly what you just said about the demographic shifting and all the things you just said, how much of it is placed on her feet for being just an idiot?

A hundred %. I mean, she got in charge in 2018, I think it was. So 2018, not a great year for Republicans. 2020, not a great year for Republicans. 2022, not a great year She was a Republican, and she just kept on failing forwards, which is a very What is that? That's an industry standard. We need to have a lot of people fail forward in this industry. But they fail forward, and her fundraising numbers weren't good. She was spending money ridiculously. I heard five hours beforehand, I was with a fundraiser friend of mine, and she was like, Oh, Ron is gone. I heard it. Good. So she's definitely gone. And Matt Gates tweeted, Kevin McCarthy should be the new head of the RNC. He'd be a good RNC chairman.

That's actually not a bad idea.

Yeah, he'd be a really good- Legitimately. Yeah, he'd actually be able to raise the money and hold things down.

He's like a crazy fundraiser, right?

He's the best in the business. Him and Tim Scott. Let me tell you something.

He's a fucking boring podcast guest. This is hard. Miranda's looking at me. We had such high hopes for him as a guest. He's a nice man. I respect him, whatever. But good Lord, honey. It was rough. Anyway, I really liked Ron DeSantis. I don't know if I was alone in my convictions. I always feel like I'm the kiss of death. I'm the opposite of Good luck, Chuck. I'm like, Bad luck, Chuck. If I like it, you'll definitely lose. Did you like him?

I went to... He invited me to Tallahassee. His people did to talk to him and his wife about the campaign and an influencer meeting. Shut up.

Well, so Ben told me to ask you about DeSantis. Yeah. What do you think he did wrong?

A million things. So I went to- And does he have a second act? Okay, so I went to Tallahassee with an influencer meeting, which I hate the word influencer, but I'm going to use it because that's what I use it. I'm not going to say people's names because- You're an influence.

I get a political influencer. I'm not an influencer.

No one listens to me. I like screaming to the void. I'm listening to you. Thank you. But no, but I'm not paid to be Ryan Gordusky. I'm not trying to sell my pillows. You know what I mean? So it's a different thing. No problem. So I went there with a group of I have influencers. And before I said to them, too often... And by the way, I was talking about you the other day and mentioning my friend Anne Coulter because you're- Okay, I want to talk to you about her. I know. But you're two of the people that I know that do not get obsessed with being near political power. People will- They're so boring. I know, but people literally will melt if they're just around an elected official. It's so true. It is. And they cannot be honest with them. So before I'm in the influencer meeting, and I'm sitting there saying, This is April. So I was like, Things are going bad. Trump is rebounding. He said, Six months of straight attacks in the San Jose. San Jose is not responding to it. You have to be honest. Things are going bad. We cannot kiss any ass.

So we sit with the team, the political team, and they all read their resumes out loud. It was very strange. And I kept them hearing, I work for Ted Cruz in '16. I work for Ted Cruz in '16. I work for Ted Cruz in '16. And I go, No, he has been a part of a winning presidential race. That's a red flag. And then they're describing the models and the polling. And I'm like, this is polling from January. This ain't from today. Because the numbers are moving away from me very, very quickly. The governor and his wife come in perfectly charming. I didn't get the autism. He's off. Sure, sure. He was very warm and very nice. So was she. And we sit down. I'm right across from him. And I'm just brutally honest. So I'm the second person to speak. And I said, listen, your book was terrible. And it was terrible because you have no national vision. I don't want to hear about Florida anymore. Florida is one of the worst sounding states because it's four It's not like Maine. It's not like a thing that pops. I just don't want to hear of Florida anymore.

You need a national vision. I don't want to live in Florida. I like this winter. I like the Northeast. I want to be in a place that I like. What are you going to do for me? What are you going to do for Michigan? You can't plant palm trees in Michigan. You have to do something for them. You have to speak to them. And then I said to him, And for as bright as you were in high school, you would not have gotten to yield today because you are a straight white man from a middle class family. This is the anxiety people think about. They don't think about Fauci all the time. You know what I mean? I also said to him, Stop talking about Fauci. Talk about the fact that Trump led his Democrats sonal over on the White House for four years, not just Fauci for one year. So I'm like, You have to, and you have to attack him. He goes, When do you want to talk now? I said, Here's my phone. Like, literally signed into my Twitter and just started railing on him. And they all laughed. I'm like, No, I'm being serious.

And then everyone else was like, I love you. I love you. I love you. And I was like, This is going real bad. You're not doing anyone any favors. So So then I'm getting very frustrated. And DeSantis said, Everyone, what's the number one issue facing this country? And the first person goes, It's transgender children. And I go- That's not the number one issue. I go, It's immigration, crime, the economy. Immigration, crime, the economy. Rins, recycle, repeat. That's all it is. And I'm going, I am getting crazy. And I was like, I got to back away. So we go afterwards to a dinner, and Janaira Peck, who was the campaign manager sitting next to me during dinner. And she was, so what do you think? I said, I think we're at an Irish funeral waiting for the body to die. That's what we're doing right now. This is over before it started. And she's like, I don't understand, whatever. I was like, listen, this is my feelings. Maybe you're right, maybe I'm wrong. That's okay. I don't work for the campaign. You know, whatever. So I go to... And by the way, I got a very good feeling that everyone was a little afraid to say things to him because afterwards someone said to me, no one talks to him like that, which whatever.

A lot of people are respectful, and I'm not. So whatever.

There's no reason I'm not invited to things like that.

So then we do an influencer call a month later. And it's like, we're going to... Then we had the Twitter launch was horrible. And I'm telling everyone, everyone was, once again, all the influencers, this is such a great idea. Congratulations. I'm like, this is the fucking stupidest idea I've ever heard in my entire life. All caps, like a crazy person. It was awful. It was one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. So we're doing the call, and you can answer any question during the call. I'm like, great. They talked for one hour, this team, the staff, without asking what's the question. So they go, Okay, we'll open up. One person asked, and then they go, Okay, we're going to wrap it up. We'll do this next month. And I said, No, we are not. I said, I'm going to tell you something right now. You need to fire your whole advanced team. You're lighting a shit. His camera and things are He's completely off. He needs to stop doing... In my opinion, he is not an enormously religious man. Neither is a majority of Republicans anymore. It's not the year 2000. You don't sound genuine in the things you're doing to try to court evangelicals.

They don't care about abortion. They are transactional voters. Talk to them about their schooling. Talk to them about... They're not going to not support Trump over abortion for you because you support six weeks and he supports 15. This is not going to go anywhere. And I was going off. And then someone, another influencer, interrupted me and goes, Can someone please call Elon for me? I think I'm being shadowbanned on Twitter. And then I was like, Just don't ever call me again. This is off. That's awful. I was really at my. I've worked in politics 19 years. I know a thing or two. And then they said to me, Oh, this is just the way that Ryan talks. And I'm like, No, this is the truth, and you've never heard it before. And if you don't like it, fine. I think DeSantis is the best governor in the country, probably, or if not, the top five. And I would love for him to be President. He'll go down as one of the greatest presidents we never had. I don't know if there's a second act for him, especially if Trump wins, because then the VP is going to run.

And there's never been a case besides pence of a VP not being nominated by the party.

Well, what's interesting is people saying he's going to have a second act in 2028. And I was like, no, there's going to be a shinier, newer, more interesting Penny coming out. And Dave Rubin came on this podcast, and I said, I really want to love him, and I'm not in love yet. And he said, he told a story about how he was hanging out with them basically said something like, And now I'm going to go sleep with my wife, something like that. I was like, You know what? If he said that in an interview, I'd love him because it's real. Also, they're young-ish. Yeah, they're young for politics. They have young kids, and they're attractive, and all this stuff. It's all the things that all these fucking octogenarians are not. I don't understand. The thing I don't understand is if I were running for president, which I'm sure as hell not going to, but if I did, I'd be like, Fuck it. Going to be as real as possible, and people are going to respond to it because we're so starved for authenticity Why didn't he just do that?

But that's what Trump gave to them. I mean, it's not always authentic, but in 2016, what was Trump was. Yeah, that's true.

And I said to- But why didn't they do it then, too?

I don't know. And I'm saying, You can't beat the small devil, but to beat the big devil by being the small devil. You have to have the media attack you because the media attacks you. It is a normal Republican voters' inclination to attack, to support whosoever the media is attacking. So get the media to hate you. Talk about things that really rile them up. And they just did it. And I don't know. He's great on Twitter now. Yeah. He's doing a great job now, post-campaign. I don't know where this guy was, but I think he's great. Do you care about Nikki Haley? I mean, I don't care about her at all. Yeah, it's boring. Yeah.

Even with some of the topics and some of my other guests, I was like, I don't want to talk about Nikki Haley. It's so boring. No offense. I mean, whatever. And her team, and I already talked about this on the podcast, I'm sure you've heard, her team acted like we were insulting them, asking her to come on this podcast. And I was like, Excuse me, I'm a conservative woman, and it might be worth your time. And RFK came on, so whatever. So I'm just like, whatever.

Did you like him personally?

I think he's a very pleasant man. When he came on, he was really nice and respectful, and he answered all my questions, and he was really cool. Look, he's too liberal for me.

No, I understand that. I find him fascinating because he's willing to go to anyone who will have him. He's doing more media than anybody. And I heard from somebody, very close to the Biden team, that their biggest fear is RFK getting ballot access.

This is one of the things I was going to ask you is, how much of a threat do you think he or a third party is?

Well, right now, he's only on the ballot, I think, in Utah. Maybe he has a second state, but ballot access is hard to get. It's very expensive. It's very expensive, very difficult. I know he's got a few billionaires throwing money at him, but it's very difficult. And I think he only has one or two states so far. So I'm going to hold my breath. In 2020, the Green Party was denied access in Arizona and Wisconsin, and I think Georgia, too, they didn't have access. And Trump's margin was so small. If they were on the ballot, they probably would have made up the difference. If some Biden voters were like, I wasn't sure, whatever, they could have eased because they would have got what the neighboring state got of the Green Party. They would have definitely made the difference. So let's see if he gets... But I'm not going to consider him until I hear that he's on the ballot in enough important states.

That's how I feel, too. But if he is, he'll definitely be a huge spoiler. A hundred %. I have to ask you about your friend, Ann Coulter. I know you're very close with her, right? Super close, yeah. Okay, so she hates me and has hated me. She and Laura Ingram launched my career when I was very young, when I was 23, because Ann Coulter called me a little bitch on Red Eye, and because Laura Ingram said I was plus size to be on TV. Google it. There's so much YouTube, good stuff of it. By the way, I always say I should send them both flowers because I wouldn't probably be here being able to do this without it. It was the first thing that really launched me separate from my dad. She tweeted this very controversial tweet yesterday, the day before yesterday, about how Trump could die, or Trump should die. Trump should die, yeah. Which, again, I was like, Wooo, spicy. Coming from the woman who wrote In Trump, We Trust.

In Trump, We Trust, yeah. And obvious America, yeah. Yeah.

Has this been... What's that evolution been like? Again, I know, and I'm not like- No, I won't disrespect her.

I won't disrespect her privacy.

I don't want to continue a few more.

No, no. She said a lot publicly, so it's not breaking things. She has always said, both privately and publicly, I know who Donald Trump is. I just want a border wall.

She is very consistent about that.

She's like, That is her thing. And she's like, This is what I want. I don't want some nonsense wall. It's like your dad, build the dining fence. I just want you to build a border wall. That is it. Right before Trump wins, she wrote Audios America. He read it, allegedly. He asked for a copy. And she doesn't care about political power. So she didn't go to the inauguration. She was invited to all that stuff. She just didn't care. So right before and she meets him and she goes to him, I'm going to tell you, apparently no one's telling you this, but you can't hire your children to do everything. You need to actually- Yeah, it's like Malaysia.

It's awful.

It's like, yeah, you can't just be hiring your kids. This is What you're hiring is very, very bad. So the first year, he didn't do almost anything on immigration his first year. He had that one thing with the Muslim ban, which wasn't a Muslim, whatever. But he didn't do on immigration on anything. He didn't touch the topic, really, until year three, when we had a million people across the border. Everyone forgets, and they think it was such a secure border. It was a million people in year three. So she says there and says to him, You can build a border wall. You are the executive in chief. You can reroute money from the military to build a defense. You are in charge of protecting it from an invasion. It in the 9/11 report, we need a border wall. It's very whatever. So she's going off and off to him, and then he was like, I know you're mad. I'll tell you what you're going to do. I'm going to give you a lifetime membership to Mar-a-Lago. And she goes, What? I don't want a lifetime membership.

She doesn't want it.

She's like, I just want a border wall.

And then- What the hell answer is that?

And then so she said- I don't want a lifetime membership to Mar-a-Lago.

The Mandarin, maybe we can talk, but not Mar-a-Lago.

So then she goes- What the fuck? I know. She was like, What? And then she gets invited to the White House. This is the end of the year, and she's now starting criticizing him publicly. And she walks in with her Big Fur coat on, and there was no one to... The door was open, so she just walked right into the White House. Trump's at the oval office desk, and Trump goes, There she is, the great betrayer. And she goes, Don't you fucking tell me about betraying people. You're not building that fucking wall. And she said that Secret Service had to come in because they stood across the desk from each other for 30 minutes just cursing each other out. And she said, At the end of it, she said, We might as well elect it fucking Jeb Bush. Thank you. And then left. And then, yeah. That's so juicy. I know. I know. It was crazy. But she doesn't give a shit. She doesn't care. Whatever. So she left, and then she started publicly really criticizing him. And then recently, this is over the summer. We were at the Bronx Zoom when she I'm going to tell you something else.

We have a friend who's a restaurant owner in New York, and he had a poster of her, Trump, and three other celebrities, whatever, who had been to this restaurant, and he got them all to sign it. And Anne had signed it before him.

What restaurant is it? Because they're brave, hanging It's a beach cafe in Upper East Side of Manhattan.

It's a Republican hangout joint.

I need to go. Thank you for that information. 70th and Second.

It's a great restaurant.

It's a great- What's the other one on the Upper East Side, too? Is it... God, Delaney? What is it? Oh, God. It's a preppy, preppy, preppy name, but it's the other one that everyone always goes to. There's two places in the city. Anyway, go ahead. Anyway, so- Little Italy is okay for Republicans, too.

Yeah, it's only a block long now, but it's good. So it's 70th and Second. So Trump sees her. She had signed it, and he goes, Oh, do you talk to her? And he goes, And he goes, Yeah, I've talked to her all the time. She goes, Invite her to come see me in New Jersey, in his place in New Jersey. And Anne just has had enough. She's over it. And so the restaurant owner calls her and goes, Would you... Trump wants to invite you to New Jersey to come hang out with him. She I'll do it if he lets me record him for his podcast. And she's sitting there with me in the Bronx, too, and she's writing the email. She's like, Yeah, he'll have me his podcast. And he goes, Well, I don't do Zoom or whatever. It's a professional camera. He's making all these excuses. And she's like, I'll hire whoever it is. I'll bring him. You have to record her for my podcast, though. And then he doesn't respond. And then a week later, he just goes on this rant on Truth Social about her. She's terrible and yada, yada, yada. And she's like, All right, so that's my answer.

Then that's that.

I don't care. So I have four more in-culture questions. Okay. The worst one is, I really want to invite her on my podcast. You should. But I don't know if it would be uncomfortable, given that we have a very long... That being said, I'm much older now. I'm almost 39. I also married a man that she I know deeply respects The funny thing about being with Ben- You lit her cigarette. Yes. She's been on our podcast. They're like friends. I will say, and I will say, she said something very nice about me in an email she sent to him. I'll feel it out. She said something about my lovely wife. But I will say what's interesting about her for me. I don't know where it's going with that. What did I just say? I want to invite her on, but I don't want to yell at anybody. I really am not in that vibe right now. I'll feel it out. Okay, thank you. The other thing is, did she see the impersonation of her, the actress who portrayed her in the American crime story?

This was so frustrating.

Because I thought it was a good portrayal.

I'm sitting there and saying to her... So there are people who talk about her. Christopher Buckley wrote a book that has her as the main character. She's never read it. She's no interest in how people do it. I said, Annie, you got to watch It's pretty good. You got to watch this show. It's a good show, whatever. And they're playing you. So she literally just watched it to see if she was pretty. And she's like, All right, I'm good now. And then she didn't watch any of it.

Oh, it's such a good portrayal.

I know. And she's like, I'm like, Anne, she did a really good job. She was respectful. Although the funny thing is because Anne's not crude. So when they're listening to the Monica tapes, whatever, and then whoever walks in and says, Oh, I have her deposition, and she's like, Oh, fuck me. Anne would never say that. I was like, That was the one part of it.

She doesn't swear.

She does in private, but she would never be crude like that. Sure. You know what I mean? That would never come out of her mouth. But then I was saying to her, I would tell her, This is how this happened whenever. Did you meet Matt Drudge at Laura Ingram's Christmas party and cues her being a lesbian? She's like, No. I met him at a Pap Buchana rally. That's so funny. Yeah. So I kept asking her, Is this true? Is that true? And she's like, No, none of this stuff is true.

I find her fascinating. She is. I think just being a child of the '90s politics, growing up in a Republican family, she hated my dad so much. But I still find her. What's interesting for me at this point is when I married Ben, all of a sudden, I had a lot more conservative credibility. I think people were like, Oh, she's sleeping with this guy that's so conservative.

I think Anne… But Anne's big thing is let the dead rest. She's not mad at Teddy Kennedy still. You know what I mean? She's not like, let's... And that's what I say to conservers.

Maybe you both can come on.

That would be so fun.

Why don't we do that? Then it will be a little bit of tension breaking. That would be so fun. If she can. But it's so funny because my producer, Miranda, is laughing at me because I've been pushing back and forth. I'm like, Should we reach out to her? Should we reach out to her? I don't know. I'll feel it out. Some people have said no. Sarah Palin said no. It disappointed me. Did she? Yeah.

I would love that interview. Me too.

I'm going to try again. I'm going to try again. In fact, I just saw a clip of Sarah Paulson talking about being on Game Change, and I was like, Fuck Game Change. Whatever. You didn't like it? No. There's a lot of stuff in that book that I was literally in those rooms, literally, physically, and it's lies. I don't think that people like Nicole Wallace and Steve Schmidt who have proven themselves to be people of very poor character and just... Steve Schmidt seems mentally unstable to be... And by the way, stop threatening to sue me. He does that all the time. I got a big dick lawyer, too.

They're trying to sue me, too.

They're trying to sue me all the time. They sent a letter to my mother being like, I'm going to sue Megan. I'm like, For what?

Your mom's dealing with you and starving children. She was very polite about it.

She was like, Respectfully, Megan, I don't want to deal with this.

Is your mom super waspy? She seems very polite and very- My mother is the most waspy lady, almost like a caricature in a Ryan Murphy show in the sense that she sleeps- She's one of the swans.

Yes. She sleeps in silk pajamas and is always in pearls. Even on the weekends casual, we're total opposite.

It's funny because I heard a lot of stories of your dad. They seem like the complete opposite to each other.

They are. They were. They were. Okay. It's funny because I'm my dad, and then both of my brothers are my mom. Oh, really? Which is very funny. That's very funny. Sort of gender reversal. My brothers are very proper. One of my brothers one time was like, You're embarrassing our family enough. They were doing whatever. I was like, Okay, well, somebody has to still be a buyer brand.

It's really funny when you're not from a very elite family. When my brother said to me, You're embarrassing the family. Who are we? The DuPont?

Who cares?

We're at a pizza restaurant in Queens.

Who gives a shit? I know. I totally agree. But thank you for letting me just... I know you're with her, and I'm like, Whatever. Absolutely. Okay, we're still good on time. I have so many other things to ask you if you don't mind. The first one- I'm here.

You don't have to say, Do you mind? I'm here.

Okay, I'm sorry. Let's go for it. Fuck it. Whatever. I texted you that I was so sad. We're going to switch gears a little bit from politics. Sure. Do you have anything else you want to say about- No, I got nothing. Okay, great.

Follow my Twitter. Can I say everything there?

Your Twitter account's very good. Thank you. I appreciate that. Wait, last thing. Who do you have the most feudes with on social media?

Rick Grinnell.

Oh, my God. He can go. I blocked him. I should, but- What's wrong with him? I knew him when he was a Jeb Bush person.

I have a lot of feelings. Listen, I guess when you have a dream job and you're willing to do anything and say anything and be anybody to get that dream job, best of luck to you.

What you're saying about people needing to be close to power, I think that's a great example, honestly. He's treated stuff at me. Oh, I had one more thing. Sorry. He's tweeted stuff at me that I need to... That Trump is always in the right and whatever. And I was like, Have you any fathomed an idea what that man has put my family through?

Also, no one's always in the right. Yeah, totally. Nobody. Chill out.

He works for Carrie Lake. I wanted to ask you about Carrie Lake. Do you think she's going to win in Arizona? What do you make of her as a Senate candidate?

She broke as shit. You see her filing? She has no money. She has no money. Kristin Sunma, who did not fundraise last quarter, has twice as much money as the Republican and Democrat combined. She has no money. She's never in Arizona.

Yeah, she lives at Mar-a-Lago.

She's She's there a lot, but she's also traveling, doing other things. My friends have seen her in multiple different states. I don't have...

I... Here's my- My friend told me she was at Iowa or New Hampshire. I don't remember. At the Trump thing, whatever. Dressed like, quote, Ms. Havisham in this long, white wear and dressed to make me laugh.

She went to meet with one of my friends who is on Team Trump, and it was the first time he met her. And I said, What did you think afterwards? And she said, he goes, I just wanted to know how many bodies were buried underneath her floorboards. That's exactly the vibe I got from her.

She used to be a Buddhist liberal.

She was with Obama.

Four years ago.

She was with Obama. It's so derangely insane. But I take elected office very seriously. I've worked for a number of people. And what I always ask... Why does I ask my school board members the same thing. I say to them, when I'm interviewing them, if I want to endorse them, my PAC wants to get involved with the race, I say to them, and the school board is not big. I'm like, If you were in charge of your local education for 10 years, and I were to say what you did, what would it look like? Describe to me what you I want something to look like over 10 years, because that's how long it takes to effect real changes about a decade. What would it look like? Tell me, describe it to me. I'm like a Bernie supporter. Describe Medicare for all, describe a wall. I want to know what this is going to look like. I have never heard I don't take people seriously who don't take that job seriously. If you want to be a celebrity, you can go make a sex tape. You don't have to run for office. It is a very serious job.

I was with a congressman who's retiring, and I said to him, he's been there for 20 years or everything. I said, What would you your biggest accomplishment is? And he said, I got a dam built in my district, and it saved 10,000 homes from flooding. That's nice. I know. And I was like, Because you took the job seriously, and it means something because you know someone's life can change. I was with a Bernie supporters in '16, and I said, What can you name his accomplishments? And so it was a got you question. He goes, he did health care for veterans with John McCain. That's nice. But it literally was like, this actually means something to somebody's life if you do it correctly. And if you don't, it's just a stepping stone for you to be famous. That's not the role of elected office.

I have to tell you, I'm going to... I find... I would say I'm not petty, but I am. And I am going to really enjoy election night when she loses because she told all McCain voters to get the hell out, and then they did. She'd be coming up with it.

And by the slimmest margin, because she didn't...

It was around 12 %, which, statistically, in polling, is around the amount of people in Arizona who will not vote for a candidate if they shit on my dad.

I was at a- How's that karma? I was at a Arizona Republicans. Very elite, well to do, but a lot of elected Republicans and all women, and we're talking education. And someone brought her up, and everyone rolled their eyes, and they said, Oh, yeah, we're going to be Republicans for cinema if she's a nominee. There is a real thing where they don't... And also, she recorded the chairman of the party. What is that? I like Jeff DeWitt. I think he messed up a lot, but he's a nice guy, and he was really... There's a lot of fracture in Arizona for a very long time, and someone who's had to work to pass together is going to take a long time. He's going to take a lot of investment. If she recorded him, who else is she recorded? Oh, yeah. That's what my big question is. I wonder if she's ever recorded Trump privately.

Oh, that's a very good question, actually.

I would love to know. And far as a two consent state- I think she's in love with Trump, literally in love with him. Well, she would say Ron DeSantis. On a campaign trail, she said Ron DeSantis has a big penis. I just know it. Oh, my God. Oh, yeah. She called him the Big D. What? Yes. Gross. She vacuumed the rug for Trump before he... I mean, it's so insanely cringey where you don't have a single person around you saying, You don't know how to do this. I'm not a mama. I know. It was But that's when she liked him before she hated him. Now she hates him because he defied the...

Dear leader. Dear leader. Yeah. Exactly. I want to move to more pop culture stuff because I know you like the same things I do because we text about it. We saw this Wendy Williams trailer for this lifetime movie about Wendy Williams coming out. I love Wendy Williams. I've been on her show quite a few times. I think five times.

You want to show five times? I used to watch almost every week. Wow.

Yeah. She always defended me, which is why I ride really hard for Wendy Williams. She was always like, Megan serves a purpose.

I I think she was low-key conservative. It's possible. Maybe not a Republican, but I think she was definitely conservative in her values. Sure. And very, very, very publicly conservative in her values.

And a genius. I mean, someone who can sit in front of a TV and entertain us.

For 30 minutes alone every day.

Drinking her coffee and tea and whatever. This trailer, she looks sick. So skinny.

Like, sickly skinny. Like, her legs. She's a big woman. She's not tiny. She's not a short girl. Her legs look like pieces of Aspheragus. She did not... She's like, I can't hold myself up. I'm like, you don't even have any weight on your legs to hold you up.

There's a video of her with a Stoli bottle that's half drunk. Half drunk, yeah. I'm like, Do you think that her family... That she gave permission for real to lifetime? She had to. Why would you let someone film you in that state?

Because the Wells Fargo thing is what's- Oh, I don't know what that's. Okay. So she fell off after her husband left her for the woman who had his daughter or whatever. And she was suffering. And then she was making erratic purchases, and she had a new boyfriend or something like that. And so Wells Fargo, I might be getting it- Like big purchases? Like big purchases. Cars and- Something like that, where Wells Fargo flagged it. And I might be saying this incorrectly, so I apologize a bit, but they put her in almost a financial conservatorship.

Oh.

Where she cannot touch her money. Oh, my God. When she says, I'm broke, she has like 60 or 70 million in the bank. She cannot touch it. They give her an allowance every week. That's fucked up. That's why she doesn't have to pay support anymore for her husband because she has no money, access to her money. So she's only getting, I don't know how much it is. Let's say it's $5,000 a month or whatever, but she's not getting a ton of her money. So she's living basically paycheck to paycheck, and she's in desperate need of money because she can't access her money.

Can't they get it back to her?

Well, that's when they said the conservatorship part in the preview. So why would a financial institution, and if they have this power, and that's when she says, it could happen to me, it could happen to you, how does a financial institution have more access to you than your next of can?

Sometimes I make erratic purchases. Sometimes I go to Sacks and buy an expensive purse I shouldn't. How can a bank just say that?

That's what I want to know from the documentary is that's really scary that a bank, it's a bear, freeze your assets. It's been for two years now.

And at the level she is.

And she's worth 60 freaking million dollars. That's not a small... This is not a small wealthy person. This is somebody who doesn't have to work, who's kids doesn't have to work for the rest of their life, that they invested it wisely. And that's why they have no money right now. That's why she said, I have no That's why she said, If it ever happened to you, it's the Wells Fargo holding her account.

Do you think there will be a Brittany-style saving of her or no?

Well, that's why her family wants access. She doesn't have a big family. She got a dad who's still alive, a sister, a niece, and a brother. And her son. And her brother is not... I don't see... My brother talks a lot, so I'm not going to go that close. But they didn't ask a Mexican to take control. Brittany, they had a Mexican to take control. I had a friend who worked on the book, and they said to me- The Brittany's Yeah, the Brittany's people. And they said to me that Brittany's family is actually better than people think. They said because they have never leaked what has actually been going on for the last 10, 15 years.

Well, I have to say her Instagram makes me uncomfortable. I had to unfollow her. I don't know what's I'm so far from being a doctor or whatever, but something's wrong. Something's wrong.

Yeah. Something is seriously wrong. When they said the family has never leaked, has never ratted, has never said anything. And she was basically broke when the conservatorship started. So I guess all the money she has made, which is not a lot of She doesn't also have a lot of money. She doesn't have Britney Spears money. You'd see Britney Spears worth a billion dollars. Britney Spears is worth over $50 million. She's basically as much money as Wendy Williams does. That's crazy. That's crazy, considering the perfumes, the albums, the singles, the tours, the- Her level. Yeah, the reggae. She should be where Taylor Swift basically is, who is a billionaire, or close to it, or a Madonna level, but she's nowhere. She's like a Wendy Williams level income.

It's very sad and hard to watch. And I actually, funnily enough, when Ben and I first started dating for my birthday, I went to Vegas and we saw her. By the way, he wore a suit to see Brittany Spears in Las Vegas, and everyone thought he was a lawyer or something. Or a security guard. Yes. It was so dumb. I remember being like, Why are you wearing a suit? I remember my sister-in-law was like, What is happening? After the haul, he was like, Who is this? That's so funny. But when we saw her, I remember being like, her eyes looked dead. She didn't look like it was. It was still fun, but it was sad.

Well, there's rumors that her last album was not even her voice, that they were using other people's voices to hold it up, whatever. Something is clearly wrong. And I think I have a philosophy on Brittany Spears. I think she's the last global celebrity that this country probably will ever produce.

Not Taylor Swift?

Taylor Swift is not as big overseas as she is in America. She's an American huge institution, but I'm sure she's not as big as she is in America. Brittany was big everywhere. And then she was the last gas before the media broke up and people could find 400 different streaming services and whatever, and they could all have their own individualized media that they like. I think Brittany is the last really big one. Beyoncé was before Brittany, and I think she's the last enduring one. And I think that that's really why I think we're so obsessed with her.

Yeah, and she's just an icon and the downfall of her. I actually saw a video of Madonna and concert recently that was very hard to watch because she just looks like she's in physical pain and her face looks weird.

She almost died. She really almost died.

She had sepsis or something, right?

Something where they had to use... What's the thing for Fentanyl that they used? Narcan? She had Narcan to revive her. God. And she couldn't walk.

Why is she touring right now? It's terrible. My friend went, it was three hours late.

I went, it was 90 minutes late. Yeah. But it was-90. Yeah, I know. Whatever. But it was a good show. But I wanted to go because I'm like, this might be the last time she ever performs. I almost saw Joan Rivers for her second to last show, and I didn't go because I wasn't feeling well. I said, Oh, I'll see her again. Now whenever I have the opportunity, I'm like, I don't know if I'm going to see them again. I want to see them.

I was her last interview.

I know you were.

It's on my Wikipedia page.

That is literally- It's the weirdest part of my life.

I was invited to her.

Was she so It's one of the best things I've ever done.

Really? Yes. She was so raw and uncensored and honest and very supportive. It was at her house. It was called In Bed with Joan. It was a YouTube show. In Melissa's house? In Melissa's house, yes. In the basement. In Malibu. She showed me her Chanel closet.

Did she give you her some jewelry?

No, they did not give me jewelry, but she was really amazing.

I have never heard a person say a bad word about her.

Oh, no, she was lovely. Ever. No, she was lovely.

Yeah. Like, literally professional. Somebody Whenever I get really on my level, I'm like, I don't want to do what I'm doing. I'm just done or whatever. You're just low. I watch her documentary every time I hit that because that level of drive of I'm going to do the best job possible, and she's 82 at the time or 81 at the time. It's almost since 10 years since she's gone. It's just crazy because it feels like it was recent because she was so relevant. No one from that… Dawn Rickles. I love Dawn Rickles. I saw her live plenty of times, but it was all old stuff. Everyone was an old thing. She was telling Kim Kardashian jokes to the day she dropped. That is incredible, that level of professionalism.

She's also wearing this beautiful cashmere fur wrap. I just remember she was expensive. Everything was… She smelled pretty and she looked great. Yeah, it was Really? We have 10 more minutes. Okay, one second. We have 10 more minutes. What? No?

We have to record intros, outros.

It won't take that. Just give me five more minutes. I have to ask about the housewise.

We'll land the plane.

Okay, we'll land the plane. I could talk to you for another for an hour. Thank you. But I guess we have to land the pain.

I'm better than Kevin McCarthy.

Dude, I'm probably going to piss him off being open about Kevin McCarthy. It was bad. We almost didn't run it. Oh, wow. That is bad. The only reason my sister-in-law worked for him and did me a favor helping book him. But I was just like, and I told his staff, Don't come on unless you're going to dish. This is not this place. I'm not this person. They didn't interpret that the way I thought. I thought they would. Okay, two quick things. Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, I think it's in its flop era. Kyle and Morgan have now... Kyle, wait, Morgan. Kyle, Richard, and Morgan Wade have scrapped pictures and videos of them now online. Do you give a shit?

The thing is that Kyle could never... I only watch Housewives from COVID when I was locked down. I was like, I watch. I binge every one of the shows. Not everyone, but a lot of them. Kyla could never hold a show by herself. She always needed her sisters. And we're seeing that now, that she doesn't have her sisters on this show. She doesn't have a show. I mean, that is just what it is. She is not the strong link, and they can't build a whole show around her. She's just not that person. And the supporting cast is not that interesting, honestly. Who cares about what's her face dating? I mean, no one cares. Move it along. The one with all the crazy accents, I'm blanking a little to everybody's name now that I have to remember them. Who's the one who Doreet. Doreet. Doreet. Doreet. Doreet. Yeah, you got it, Maria. Yeah, Doreet. Just uninteresting, remarkably uninteresting. It's an uninteresting show. I stopped watching this season. I didn't really care after a few episodes. I mean, Denise Richards was interesting, but it's not that interesting.

It's a boring show. It is so boring now. I hope they pull it together.

They have to revamp. They have to do something. They have to ask him to come back. They got to do something. I agree. Him was one of the greatest of all time.

I could talk to you for a lot longer, but we're literally being played off like they do at the Academy Awards. My producer is like, Stop talking. Ryan Grodesky, you're the founder of the 1776 Project Pack at Ryan James Gordesky.

Ryan Gordesky on Twitter.

Ryan Gordesky? Why do I think it's Ryan James?

Because it's my middle name. I put on Twitter my middle name because whatever. I have a sub stack I want to subscribe the National Populus Newsletter.

I need to subscribe to that. I would love it. I'm sorry, I have not. No, it's okay. I would love to. No, it's okay. Thank you so much. Such a pleasure talking you. Thank you for having me. Come back anytime. I appreciate that. I will. Come back with or without your friend, Eric Holder. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Welcome back to Megan McCain Has Entered the Chat. I am very, very, very excited for our next guest. He is really just a political legend. David Axelrod is the founder of the University of Chicago's Institute of Politics. He is CNN senior political commentator and author of Believer: My 40 Years in Politics, and he's also host of the Ax Files and the Hacks on Tap podcast. You do a lot of podcasts, Mr. Axel Rod. Thank you so much for taking time for mine today.

Happy to be here. Really happy to be here, Megan.

I am such a fan of yours, which maybe sounds ironic given that you're one of the main people responsible for my dad not becoming President. But you really are a legend. I don't know you well, but my dad did. One of the main things he always said about you is how even tempered and calm and mild-mannered you are. That is not the energy and vibe of the McCain people, which was very dramatic and swearing a lot and prone to theatrics and drama. How do you be such a mild-mannered person and have this incredible career in politics? Because like I said, most people I know who are advisors and strategists, you were President Obama's chief strategist advisor, are very intense people.

Yeah, I don't First of all, I'm sure there are people who can attest to the fact that I'm not always calm, certainly during a campaign. But I don't know where my temperament comes from. Let me say parenthetically, and I hope we get into it later. I very much believe in a politics where... I respect people who are in the arena. I know your dad was a fan of Teddy Roosevelt, as am I, and he talked about people who are in the arena. And I respect people who care enough about the country to want to participate in politics and in the decision making about what our future should look like. And so One of the great gifts, really, was that I got to know your dad after that campaign. I think more than once, I think he did say, I wish you had said that back in 2008. But I so admired him, and we can talk more about that later. But yes, he had a different temperament than I have.

Well, can I ask you, how did your friendship evolve? Because I remember when I saw in a Phoenix airport one time, and we said hello, obviously, and my dad was like, Oh, I just love him. He's just one of the really good ones. So it doesn't seem like the bedfellows you would expect. How did you get this friendship?

Well, look, the friendship happened because I run the Institute of Politics. And someone who was an intermediary who was a supporter of the Institute of Politics, in invited him to come, asked him to come, and he came. And I forget how long after the 2008 election this was, but he and I had a conversation in front of an audience, and it was a really good conversation. And there were a few barbs here and there about my participation in the 2008 campaign, but they were good natured, and he was great. My Institute of Politics is all about inspiring young people to lean in in the public square, and he was an inspirational presence. And from there, we had conversations, and I invited... He was the first guest when I... Not briefly, for three and a half years, I did my podcast on CNN as a television show, and he was good enough to be the first guest on that show. I think your mom was the last guest So I book-ended my television career, at least that part of it, with the Mccanes, both of whom were deeply inspiring. And I got to know him. I got to know the people around him, and I really appreciate him.

And certainly as the years went by and as the Trump era came, the value and importance of leaders like John McCain became all the more clearer because he was a guy who passionately cared about the country and cared enough about the country to work with other people who cared about the country, who he might disagree with on other issues, but could find common ground on some issues. I mean, he talked about in that podcast, that television show we did about his relationship with Ted Kennedy and how they would just bludgeon each other on the Senate floor and then throw their arms around each other and go and have a drink and talk about what just happened. And I long for that. I miss that. I mean, right now we're going through this extraordinary thing where Republicans and Democrats did what we want them to do on a really hard issue, immigration on the border, and came up with the toughest border bill that we've seen in decades. And then it gets blown up because Donald wants the issue. Yes. And everybody fell in line. John McCain would not have fallen in line.

No. And I think that was my next question for you. I have two little girls. One is three, one is one. And my husband and I say they can do anything except this. I don't want them to be political commentators. I don't want them to be in the political space in this way because it has become so ugly and personal. And I'm sure with you, people approach me all the time as like, my dad's campaign in the Obama campaign in '08 being the last of the great campaign rivalries, that it was as respectful as campaigns can be, that it was... People always talk about my dad's concession speech. People always obviously talk about President Obama's acceptance speech, this being a really pivotal, hopeful time. My dad did not feel sorry for himself. It was just a totally different era. I have a really hard time subsisting in this era because I, too, want to have the era of the Ted Kennedy's and my dad. President Obama spoke in my dad's funeral. It's an entirely different group of people in an entirely different time. This is not that long ago. What do you think has shifted so acutely right now where, again, as you said, these bills, which by any right or left rational person would be good for the country, has been torpedered because of one person.

Yeah. Well, there are a number of answers to that. Before I get to it, let me just say two other things. There you are. There you are. Hi. Two other things about your dad. One was when we started thinking about the race in 2008, Barack Obama said to me, I think I can win the nomination. I think I can beat Hillary Clinton and the others. I don't know if I can beat John McCain. And he talked about John McCain's independence and his profile. And And so there was always that recognition that McCain had something special. What I said to him then, Megan, and you'll appreciate this, is if John McCain could be the John McCain of 2000, we're all going to have a really hard campaign. I don't know if the Republican Party of today will allow him to be that John McCain. But the other thing was one of the most moving parts of that campaign was you'll remember that event in Minnesota late in the campaign when a woman challenged him and said, Obama is not an American. He's a Muslim. I don't trust him. And your father grabbed the microphone away from him and said, No, ma'am.

He's a good father. He's a great American. I just disagree with him. It's mission. And people started shouting, Come on, John. And I watched that. I was sitting in the campaign headquarters, and I was watching it on a computer screen, and I thought, That is a really impressive display of statesmanship and character right there. But Why are we where we are? Well, I think a lot of it has to do with social media and big data and social media together. And the model of the social media industry is to keep people online. And their great and horrible discovery was the thing that keeps people online is anger, resentment, conspiracy theories, on the right and left. And we get driven by these algorithms that know more about us than we know about ourselves into these silos. And in these silos, we are always affirmed, but not always informed. And everybody outside the silo is alien. Everybody out the silo is menacing, is un-American, is And in a country where we have so much that should bind us together, both as human beings and as Americans, we are being split apart. And of course, the world as well.

And I think politics has come to mirror that. I mean, look at the people who are the great fundraisers. And I'll talk about the Republican side. I mean, I don't think there's any caloric content to Marjorie Taylor Green. I know.

I can't believe she fundraises as well as she does.

It blows my mind. But she does because she is like a social media creation. She does nothing but appeal to people's resentments and anger and to conspiracy theories. She was like, she's what social media creates. And in some ways, Donald Trump is as well. We should give him his due. He is a feral genius when it comes to exploiting people's resentments and exploiting the social media environment. Cable television has come to resemble, in many ways, social media. And so we have all these forces that are trying to drive us apart and tell us that if people don't agree with you, that they're somehow not American or worse, And one of the things about your dad is that he served in the military. And I'm pretty certain that when he was flying those planes and when he was with his his fellow servicemen and women, he was not checking their voter registration card to see what party they registered in. They were together in a shared mission. And And the division in our country, it will destroy us if we don't find a way through. And this latest episode, I believe that we need to take tough measures on the border.

I'm the son of a refugee, okay? I am grateful to this country. And my dad, by the way, arrived here a couple of years before a very draconian immigration bill was passed that would have kept him from coming here. So I feel so lucky. My dad was an immigrant and a refugee, and I was the senior advisor to the President the United States. That's America.

It's pretty incredible.

That's America. And I want that to continue to be. I think immigrants, and I know your dad worked hard on this issue, immigrants are what renew our country. I am proud of the fact that people all over the world want to come here. And it's not to take advantage of social welfare problems. There are more generous countries than ours. It's because they want to work hard and provide for their families and live in a place where they can worship as they see fit, think as they see fit, associate with whomever they want to associate with, exercise their right to cast a vote that is counted and matters. All of these things that make America so great. That said, we have to have enforceable borders. I mean, you can't just have people flowing across the borders. I think everybody in this country, if there's a consensus, it's that right now. We ought to do something about it. And yet, Trump very clearly wants the issue. And all of these folks are so afraid of what his wrath would mean to them in terms of keeping their jobs that they're unwilling to challenge him. And it's a very, very difficult time.

And we, Republicans and Democrats and independents who actually care about governance and care about the future need to confront it because this is no way for America to operate.

Well, I completely agree with you. And I also have found the rhetoric of so many people on the far right when it comes to immigration being really lacking in humanity and Judeo-Christian values. And my dad always used to say, These are God's children. They're trying to come here for a reason. I, too, don't believe in open borders, but I find the hostility towards the plight of so many people wanting to come to the greatest country in the world and live the American dream very heartless.

So I agree And, Megan, let me just say one other thing about that. Not only is it heartless and not only is it inhumane, it's stupid because we need immigrants. You talk to any economist about what it would mean to actually ratchet down immigration in this country. We're an aging country. The thing that keeps us young are generations of immigrants who come here and renew us and refresh us and work their asses off and have great dreams. And as they realize their dreams, they're helping us realize our dreams as a country. That is part of the magic of America. So it's not just inhumane, but it's also really foolish just from the standpoint of our national success.

No, I completely agree, and it makes me very disheartened. And it's many of the reasons why I feel very isolated in the Republican Party right now. I have never, and I think there's some idea that I would, I have never, will never, and there's no circumstance on planet Earth where I could possibly vote for President Trump. I have been candidly disappointed by President Biden not governing as more of a moderate. There are some pretty staggering poll numbers that just came out from NBC that showed President Trump is now leading Biden 47 to 42. It's a nine-point swing from July. It's the biggest lead President Trump has ever had. This surprised me. It's the lowest approval rating of any president since President Bush's second term in the Iraq War. If you were advising their campaign right now, what would you tell them to reroute? And do you even believe in polls this far out in February when obviously, the elections in November.

Well, look, I don't think polls are necessarily predictive of the result, but they are... When you are doing campaigns, and I'm sure the folks around your dad would tell you this, The top line is almost the least important number. You look for the internals of the poll. And there are things, obviously, there were many, many things in that poll that were worrisome for the President. There was a CNN poll during the last week that had many of the same results. There were a few things in that CNN poll, such as asking people who do they think is extreme and who is mainstream. And on that, Biden was in a far better shape than Trump. But look, here's how I view the election. Bill Clinton once said that elections are always about the future. And I think when you think of it in those terms, when you ask yourself, what country do we want? You and I can debate some of the things that Biden has done, but he's done things that have the future in mind. So whether it's on health care or prescription drug costs or the infrastructure bill that he worked with Republicans to pass and just the ability to work with Republicans on things, I mean, these are all things that are important for the future.

I mean, I would argue, and I know this is a fraud issue, but I think in this election, abortion rights will be an issue. But rights generally will be an issue, the rule of law and whether we have institutions and rules and laws and norms that are governing, that are President and the people who work for them observe. That's part of the future as well. Donald Trump is not focused on the future. Donald Trump is consumed by his own past. And so if both these guys are old, and the thing that's an obstacle for Biden more than anything else is age. And I think we have to confront the fact that neither of these guys have much of a future. Both of them are in the final chapters here. The question is about our future and what country we want to live in. And do we want to be a country where we're at each other's throats every day, where Everything is subjugated to politics and particularly the political needs of the President. And we're not working on the real fundamental challenges of our day. I think that's where I would drive this if I were in the Biden campaign.

I would have been much tougher this week, frankly, on Trump for tanking the immigration bill. I think they have to take those opportunities because that was really the first time in three years that Biden could take the initiative on the immigration issue, and they should have pressed it more. But they have to turn this into a comparative race. And I think fundamentally, at the top line, the comparison is one guy who's earnestly trying to solve problems and thinking about the future that our kids and grandkids are going to live, and another guy who couldn't care less, who's so focused on himself and on vengeance that he'll never get around to solving the problems that really matter to people in their lives.

I see my producer Miranda shaking her head. Yes, because while she is center-right, there's just no situation where she feels like she can vote for anyone but Biden. Sorry to expose you, Miranda, in this election, because of all the things you're saying that we don't want the revenge tour segment, too. One of the things that I was perplexed by in that poll, and again, take it for what it is, but the 3 in 10 voters, according to this poll, disapprove of Biden's handling of the Israel Hamas war. I've actually been very supportive. Maybe that's the problem, is people like me, I've been very impressed with his handling of the Israel Hamas war. Are you surprised by how much young people in the country oppose Israel? And what could President Biden have done differently to please these people?

Yeah. Look, this is a really difficult issue. I think you can hold two thoughts at once. I mean, as I said, I'm the son of a Jewish immigrant, Jewish refugee, and I feel strongly about Israel. And I feel strongly... I mean, anybody with a beating heart should feel strongly about what happened on October seventh, which was barbarism of the worst sort. And there's no justification for it under any rational, humane view of human beings. But on the other hand, look, I cry when I see these Palestinian children who are innocent and have no They have no culpability for what happened on October seventh. And they're injured. They've lost their families. I think two things can be true at once. I think what is true of young people is that they see all of those scenes. And by the way, they're being fed those scenes as well, constantly on TikTok and Instagram, the scenes of absolute destruction in Gaza and what that's meant for human beings. And they have solicitude for it. And I have no doubt that there is an element of it is the perception of Israel as an occupier and the Palestinians as victims of the occupation.

And there are all kinds of dimensions of that. I would love to be able to have a conversation about this and say I was beyond sickened by what happened on October seventh. And yes, Hamas needs to be held accountable for that. And I am heart sick about what's happening in Gaza to the people, most of whom have no culpability or affiliation with the forces that invaded. Look, I know your mom, we talked a lot about your dad. Your mom is heroic. Oh, thank you. And what she's doing right now to try and make sure that these children don't starve. Megan, I got an email yesterday. We had at the Institute of Politics a Palestinian journalist who actually was a stringer for NBC and was recommended to me by Richard Angle in NBC. And he came to spend three months at the IOP, and it was really an incredible thing. I mean, he opened people's eyes about what life in Gaza was like, but he also spent a lot of time with Jewish leaders. He said, It's the first time I've ever had this opportunity. And there was real dialog. I mean, I loved him, and he was an incredibly positive presence on the campus.

Well, And he tried to start a... He was working on starting a center in Gaza to give young people there a chance to interact with the outside world and to try and get dialog going. And now I got an email from him yesterday, and I write him occasionally. And every once in a while, I got an email back. And the depth of his despair and he said, the question is, are you going to die by a bullet or are you going to die by starvation? And he's got eight kids and lots of grandkids kids. And I'm like, I don't have any problem saying I have great solicitude for him and for all those people who are suffering there. So what could Biden have done? Honestly, I think he's doing what he can do, because I don't think you can walk away from Israel here. They are living under threat. And what you saw on October seventh speaks to that. On the other hand, I do think that they could be more surgical in how they're approaching this. I talked to my friends who are in, who've come out of the military here, who have come out of the intelligence services.

They all say that. And I know the President has been and the Secretary of State, have been pressuring Prime Minister Netanyahu on these issues and pressuring for a pause to get more hostages out and so on. But Netanyahu has his own imperatives, and he's not necessarily going to respond to Biden. And so it's put Biden in a very tough position. But I think on this, on Ukraine, the President has performed very admirable work. I mean, he really did rally the world on behalf of Ukraine. It's sickening that the Senate, that the Congress is not taking up aid to Ukraine. I can only imagine what John McCain would be saying about that.

Well, could I interject and ask you, I'm obviously horrified at this isolationist wing of the extremism on the far right. Tucker Carlson is currently in Russia interviewing Vladimir Putin. I would just say, I actually have a friend Vladimir Karamarza, who is currently in a gulag.

Yes, my friend as well. He was a fellow at the Institute of Politics as well.

He appeared for people that he's a legend. For people that don't know, he is currently in a gulag for fighting for freedom and free speech in Russia. I actually petitioned in front of Congress with his wife to try and get his early release.

He's a protege of Boris Nemsov, who was a great friend of your father's.

Yes, who was- Who was assassinated. Right outside the Kremlin for the same thing. But if I have one favor to ask you, if you talk to anyone in the Biden administration, please on my behalf and Eugenia's behalf, petition for the free and fair release of Vladimir Kharimarsa because it is vitally important. Back to the question, I'm horrified by what's happening. It's not just about Tucker Carlson, per se, because he's one person, but it's what this is an example of. You know it's just going to be a softball, loving relationship.

I thought Tucker was going to get an award. I don't think there's any American who's done more for Putin over the last couple of years than Tucker Carlson.

It's hideous. Do you think that the far extremisms in the country are going to become like Russian apologet? Are they going to really actually try and have a relationship with a country that is trying to destroy Ukraine from the inside?

Well, they will if Donald Trump is President. I think that's pretty clear. Remember, Donald Trump, when Russia rolled into Ukraine, called it genius. And think about that, Megan. Why did he call it genius? Because Donald Trump believes the world is the hunger games, where the strong take what they want and the weak fall away. And anyone who doesn't do that, anyone who plays by rules and laws and norms and respects institutions is a sucker. That's what believes. I think in his heart of hearts, and if he were being candid with you, that's what he believes. And his attitude was, If you can go in and grab a country, why not? Why not? So, yes, I think it's clear. I mean, he has a maximum regard for dictators and autocrats because they're taking what they want, and he thinks that's the right way to go. So, yes, if he's President of the United States, and he has this talismanic holdover elements of the party, and I think there are a lot of people, and you've lived in this world, so you know this. There are plenty of people in the Republican Party who disagree with him and know that what he's doing and saying is wrong, but their attitude is, I want to stick around.

I don't want to give up my job, so I'll just wait Trump out. But I do think this, this is a country that became weary of war. We were in Afghanistan for 20 years. The Iraq war went on for a long time. A lot of lives were lost. A lot of money was spent. I lived part of the time in rural Michigan, and I was struck by a conversation I had with a guy I know, a farmer who lives near me. And I go on long walks with my wife and my dog. And oftentimes, we pass this farm, and if he's out, he'll come out and chat. Great guy, really warm, wonderful guy. And he just on his own said, I don't have anything against these Ukraine people, he said. But he said, All that money that we could be doing stuff with here at home. He said, My crop insurance just got more expensive. It covers less. This is a guy who basically farms his farm by himself and is debilitated and gets on his hands and knees to plant because it's easier for him. But I suspect that he reflects a lot of people who may not be hostile of Ukraine, but are hostile to the money and the resources that we're spending there.

I mean, look, I, like you, believe that the... First of all, my father, by the way, was from what is now part of Ukraine, But I'm drawn to people who are fighting for freedom, and for their own... They didn't ask for this war, but they got it. But I also think that Putin, as expansionist, I The idea is we have a treaty with NATO. And so what happens next if he were to take Ukraine? But that's a hard conversation to have with people. It's attenuated, it's hypothetical, And what they're saying is we're spending all this money over there, and why aren't we spending it? Why don't we need to hear we got deficits, we've got needs, why are we spending all this money? Tucker posits this as giving to the Ukrainians what belongs to the middle class. That's how he frames it. And I think it registers with some people. I don't think it's right. I think it's short-sighted. But just like social media, he's a guy who knows how to exploit people's vulnerabilities and weaknesses and anger and resentment. And he's damn good at it.

I think he sounds like Lindberg in World War II fighting for isolationism and not caring that Jewish people were in concentration camps. I think it's just hideous and evil. And my husband and I last night, actually, when we saw, there was a thing on social media, Tucker in Moscow, saying all this stuff. And we were both just saying he is the person I always thought he was. He's a hideous agent of chaos, and it just does a lot of damage. I, too, have heard the argument that the money will go to the middle class, but if he expands and takes over Ukraine, it could start World War III, which will be a hell of a lot more expensive than we're doing.

Of course. Yes, of course. I agree with you. As to Tucker, you guys know him better than I. I really don't know him. I'm not sure I've ever met him.

He's a bad person.

Well, I mean, he reflects, I think, a little of what Trump reflects, which is just unbounded self-interest. And he, like Trump, has a feral genius for finding those seams and exploiting them for his own good. This isn't about principle. This is about... Unless you're talking about the principle in his bank account.

Yeah. It can make a hell of a lot of money if you go down that road. I mean, you and I could be billionaires for multimillion. I don't know your life, but I could be- That would be the most expensive money you could ever earn. Yeah, you sell your soul on the way. Mr. Axelrod, I know we're coming up on time. I have to ask you this question because, quite frankly, it's what everyone is gossiping about in Washington, DC right now. I know that sometimes gossip doesn't mean anything, but sometimes it does mean something. There's a lot of rumors that Mrs Obama is going to somehow take over for President Biden at the convention. Cindy Adams reported in The New York Post, I know it's The New York Post, it's gossip, that the Obamas have not denied it. I have had very minimal interactions with Mrs Obama, but she's obviously an incredibly impressive woman. My understanding is her polling is just staggeringly high with approval among all Americans, not just Democrats. Do you think there's any merit to that? Or again, it's just cheap gossip?

Well, first of all, on your last point, I remember we were trying to get Warren Buffet to speak at the convention in 2008. He had endorsed Obama against your dad, but we thought it would be great to have him actually speak there. And I called him and I said, Mr. Buffet, you're the gold standard. I mean, you really... And he said, David, you know how it became the gold standard? And I said, How? And he said, By understanding how to use my brand. He said, Speaking at political conventions isn't my brand. And honestly, if Michelle Obama, who is rightly very popular, if she actually became a politician, I think that her numbers would shift. Not to say that she wouldn't be... She's a formidable person. But part of the fact, part of the reason she's formidable is she speaks her mind. She is who she is. It's It's very hard to do that and run for President of the United States. I mean, you know that from your own personal exposure to it. Secondly, and most importantly, she was never gung-ho about politics. She was a conscript. In the early years of their relationship, Michelle and Barack had an understanding, and that was politics was his career, she had her own career, and they would come together around the family.

But in the campaign in 2004 for the US Senate, I think she appeared twice with him. She wasn't even there when he announced because she was at work. She has a very jaundice view of politics that I think is grounded in the reality of what politics, so much of what politics is. I don't think she would want to consume her. I think she cares deeply about country. I'm sure she may be out there campaigning in the fall. I don't know. But to be a politician, I don't think that's in the cards. I keep telling people, I think I have a better chance of dancing in the Balchoy Ballet next year than that she's going to be President of the United States. I just don't think she wants it.

Yeah. It's a tough road, and I think it would be an even tougher road being the first black female President, obviously. That presents a other group of challenges for all the obvious reasons.

She's tough. Michelle Obama is really a brilliant person, and she's very telegenic, and she communicates well, and she's got a lot of assets, and she's very, very tough. But she's tough enough also to know what she wants and what she doesn't want. I don't think she's compelled. She doesn't need the celebrity. She doesn't need none of that. I guess anything could happen. I haven't discussed it with her, but there would have had to have been a complete personality change for her to say, Oh, yeah, actually, I want to go back and spend another eight years in the White House.

My last final question for you is, obviously, I can't believe you've been in politics 40 years. I'm not trying to- Sure.

Now it's more like 50 because that book came out in 2015 that I wrote.

Does that mean you started in politics when you were 16?

Well, I started in politics. What I consider starting was when I started as a journalist. I spent 10 years as a journalist, and I started doing that in college. I started writing a political column for a local paper in Chicago when I was 18. So I was freakishly interested in this stuff. Jfk came to my little community in Stuyveson town in New York when I was five years old, and I was transfixed. A by both news and politics since that time. So, yeah, I was young when I started in this, and it's been an interesting ride. Just a wonderful, interesting, engaging way to spend one's life.

You've had an incredible career. I mean, absolutely incredible. What would you say to, because we have a lot of younger people that listen to my podcast who want to be more involved, who maybe want to do what you do and or become a strategist or an advisor, given the just hideous negative times we're in right now, what advice would you give and what do you give to your students at the Chicago Institute of Politics who want to get into this?

I'm so glad you asked me that because this democracy of ours, it's not a gift, it's a project. It gives us the tools to grab the wheel of history and turn it. And it gives us the tools to make a difference in our communities and in the world. But you really have to lean in. You can't lean out. And democracy is forever a battle between cynicism and hope. And the cynics are on the march right now, and social media and other tools have amplified their voices. The question is, are we going to fight for that project? Are we going to use the tools that are afforded to us that people in many other countries don't have to actually make a difference? And it doesn't, by the way, have to be as a candidate or a campaign person. It could be as a journalist. It could be working for an NGO. It could be the work that your mother's doing to feed the hungry. There are so many ways to get Get in the public square and try and make the world better and try and make your communities better. And all I can tell you is it is the most satisfying work there is.

Your dad and I had different views on health care, though he will forever be remembered for the thumbs down on Trump's plan to destroy the Affordable Care Act with nothing to replace it.

That's why he was against it. People are always asking. I was like, was against a skinny repeal. He didn't think you could just leave people out in the cold with nothing.

Yes. And look, I have a child who's now an adult who has epilepsy. And she had uncontrolled seizures for the first 19 years of her life. And it really changed our lives. My wife started a research foundation called Citizens United for Research and Epilepsy just because she wanted to channel her grief in a way that would make it possible that maybe some other person wouldn't have to go through some other family, some other child wouldn't have to go through what ours did. But the part of it was I was a reporter and I had insurance, and the insurance wouldn't cover what she needed. It didn't cover her prescriptions, which became more and more expensive. It didn't cover her second opinions, and they wanted to do brain surgery. And we almost went bankrupt. And so the night the Affordable Care Act passed, I was in the room with the President, the Vice President, and everybody had worked on the issue from the senior people to the very junior people in the Roosevelt Room in the White House. And as the final vote came in, I found myself getting up, not even knowing why, and going into my office and shutting the door.

And when I heard the whooping and hollering, which meant the vote had passed, Megan, I broke out crying, sobbing, and I didn't even know why at first. And I realized I knew it was because there were families and kids who wouldn't have to go through what my family went through. And I went and I found the present once I cleaned myself up and I said, I just want to thank you on behalf of all families he's like mine. We'd known each other a long time. He knew my story very well. And he just put his hand on my shoulder and said, That's why we do the work. And that was the simple, most clarifying thing. It's not about whether the red team wins or the blue team wins. It's not about who's up and who's down. It's about what can we do together to make things a little bit better in our country, in our communities. And we have that power to do it. And we need these young people leaning in and saying, I'm going to seize that power that I have as a citizen, and I'm going to get involved, and I'm going to try and make things better.

And don't let them Don't let them persuade you that it doesn't make a difference. I run into people every single day. Not every day. That's an exaggeration. But I run into people all the time who have been helped by the Affordable Care Act, who come up to me with tears in their eyes saying, I can't tell you what this meant to me. And they tell me their stories. And it's like in some All the way, I helped do that. And there's nothing as satisfying as that. Your mom is saving lives. There's nothing more satisfying than that. She will tell you that. I'm sure it's more important to than any election. So this is the opportunity you have. I'm sure you have young people who listen to your podcast. Please, we need you, man. We need you to not give in to the cynics. We need you to believe that you can change the world because you can. And it's more important now than ever.

Thank you for sharing that story. I agree. My mother and I are like polar opposites, and all she wants to do is save the world and be nice and never offend anyone. Everyone loves her. I always say, Depending on which room I go in, somebody's going to love me or they're going to hate me, my mom, bring her. Everybody loves her. Everybody, right, left, everything. Everybody loves my mom.

Well, she's doing the Lord's work right now, for sure.

For people who don't know, she's the head of the World Food Program, and she's literally trying to save world hunger. It's a very noble job. And thank you for sharing the story about health care. I can't tell you there have been times I can't even count at this point, people that have come up to me to thank me for my dad saving their health care. It just happened a few weeks ago. President Trump is still defaming him for it and denigrating him for it.

I know. It's sickening to see. It's wild. But to Trump, this isn't an issue of health care. It's a tool. It's a device to try and rally people rally people's resentments. I appreciate your dad because he took his responsibility seriously. He understood he was there to serve people and not to serve himself. God bless him for that.

Thank you so much, Mr. Axelrod. It really has been just an absolute pleasure speaking with you. Thank you for slumming it on my podcast. Your podcast is incredibly popular.

He's I don't feel like I'm slumming at all. I'm beholden to the McCain family for all their service. Thank you. And so I was really happy to be here. I'm only unhappy that you wouldn't take my admonition to call me David because nobody calls me Mr.

Ax. Okay, David. I still feel, I don't know. You're very serious, so we have to show respect. But you can follow David. He hosts his own podcast, The Ax Files and Hacks on Taps, both podcasts. And you can pick up his book, Believer, My 40, now 50, Years in politics. Again, thank you so much, David. I really, really appreciate it. It's just been wonderful.

Great to see you, Megan. Great luck to you. Thank you.

Thank you so much for listening to Megan McCain has entered the chat. I hope you have a wonderful weekend. We'll catch you back next Tuesday. Thanks for listening to this episode of Megan McCain has entered the chat brought to you by Teton Ridge. I am your host and executive producer, Megan McCain. Additional executive producers are Miranda Wilkins, Eric Spiegelman, and Wyn Wigel. Our supervising producer is Olivia DeCopoulos. Our senior guest producer is Kara Kaplin, and associate producer Austin Goodman.