What are we talking about? The big P, procrastination.

Do not listen to the current media people who are coming out and saying, Procrastination. There's a good side to procrastination. Are we born this way? No. What? 20 % of adult men and women are chronic procrastinators. That's higher than depression, substance abuse, panic attacks, alcoholism. This is somebody who will not RSVP on time and wait till the gage goes on empty before they get more gas or get the third bill before they pay it. That's me. That's me. Yeah, of course. We mean, of course. You showed up 20.

Minutes late. What happens in your brain when you procrastinate?

Why are you going there? The least effective technique. The technique that will not work with procrastinators is time management. What works is-.

Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I am so glad you tuned in today because today, you and I have a dozy of a topic. This is something we all struggle with. What are we talking about? The big P, procrastination. That's right, we're going there. Is procrastination a coping mechanism? How do I stop? How do I focus? How can I help someone I love who is a procrastinator? Why the hell do I do it when I know it's not good for me? I feel like I do my best work when under pressure. Is that procrastination? I'll tell you what, I want to know the answers to these questions, don't you? I bet you do. My mission for you and me today is for us to understand what is procrastination exactly. Now, I brought in the best of the best, Dr. Joseph Ferrari. I can tell you right now, this professor is fast like a Ferrari. He has got one hell of a personality. And I got to be honest with you, when I thought about the world's leading expert on procrastination, I did not think about the word personality. But boy, oh, boy, does he have a big one.

And he's also warned me that once he gets going, he revs that engine up and he just can't stop. So who is Dr. Joseph Ferrari? He's a renowned psychologist and professor of psychology at DePaul University. He's an international researcher, author of seven bestselling books on this topic, and he is here to get you moving forward. Doctor Joseph Ferrari is here to cut through the crap and deliver you the truth. He's going to tell you that you can unlearn it, and he's going to give you tools that you can start using today to stop procrastinating and to actually overcome it for good. Why? Because you don't have to live the rest of your life doing this to yourself. You can stop hating your sofa never following through, and you can start doing your best work. There is a solution to procrastination, and our guest today is going to teach it to you. This episode will enlighten, inform, and inspire you to change once and for all. And yes, this is the biggest takeaway regarding the science. Change is possible. So let's not procrastinate on jumping into this any further. We're going to just let it rip. Please help me welcome Professor Joseph Ferrari to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

Thank you for inviting me.

So let's just start with the question, what is procrastination? Okay.

Procrastination is not the same as delaying. If I'm stuck on the tormac and my plane isn't getting off and I'm four hours late for some appointment, I didn't procrastinate. That's delay. It's not the same as pondering. Pondering is to pause and to stop and think because you're actively thinking about, What should I be doing? It's a mis perception that procrastination is poor time management. What is the procrastination? It's the intentional delay of a target task that is irrational and prevents you from reaching your goal. So you're purposely not doing something, and it doesn't make any sense to do that, and it's going to prevent you from reaching a goal, and people feel uncomfortable about it, and it's maladaptive. Do not listen to the current media people who are coming out and saying, Oh, there is procrastination. There's a good side to procrastination. Ain't true. Everything shows that procrastination is a maladaptive lifestyle. You're missing out on life. Because for the procrastinator, they think the world is all about me. And the world is not about me, it's about we. And if I don't do what I have to do, then you can't do what you have to do.

And so it's not about me. I don't like it. I can't do it. I find it aversive. It's unpleasant. It's too much time. Yeah, life ain't like that. So what? All right, life is about us getting things done, all right? There's that expression. If you want something to be done, you give it to a busy person. Why? That makes no sense. Why a busy person? Because the busy person values your time and values their time and knows that there are things that have to get done. All right? This is not an adaptive strategy. Let me stop here and say I'm not shaming or defending anybody who's a procrastinator because I hope as we get there, I'm going to show you how procrastination is a learned tendency. And that means you can unlearn it. That's how I would define it. It's irrational. It prevents you from reaching your goal.

So, Dr. Ferrari, you said it's the intentional delay, which made me wonder, do you have to know that you're doing it?

I need to clarify for you something. Everybody procrastinates, but not everyone is a procrastinator.

What's the difference?

Thank you very much. Twenty % of adult men and women are chronic procrastinators. And as a research psychologist, those are the people I want to study, 20 %. Now you might say, That's all, Ferrari? That's higher than depression, substance abuse, panic attacks, alcoholism, right? And yet we treat this humorously. I procrastinate. Well, do you procrastinate on one task then you procrastinate, or do you procrastinate on a variety of things that makes you a procrastinator? Twenty % men and women, no significant gender difference, 20 % of people will not RSVP on time and wait till the gage goes on empty before they get more gas, or get the third bill before they pay it. You know they're going to miss your birthday and your anniversary and Christmas, and you'll get the cards later if you get anything and all that. And they'll always have an excuse. That's me. That's for them. That's me. Yeah, of course.

Really? Of course. That's me.

You showed up 20 minutes late.

No, I did not. We had a schedule, and the schedule was to start the pre-interview at 10 o'clock because most guests tend to be a little overwhelmed and a little nervous because of the reach of this show. And so we have a process in place. I was not intentionally delaying. I'll defend myself there.

I expect that I'd see you right away. But irrelevant. But it's a good example. A good example of what we're talking about. How would someone else know that? That's true. Unless they're told that. And then the person who shows up late says, This is what's going on. And that's believable because procrastinators are very good, as I was saying, good excuse makers. They always have a reason. And it's logical, and it makes sense. The problem is the next time the same thing happens, then the next time or in another setting. So that's what makes us suspicious after a while. And you say, Wait a minute. It's never your fault. It's never your fault. I don't know you, so I'm not saying this is true of you. Please do not be offended. I'm trying to explain how this is a good case.

Of what we're talking about. Yes, I agree. So let me ask another question. So how do you know if, in fact, you are a chronic procrastinator, that you're part of that 20 %? What are some of the signs so that somebody can go, this is beyond just a funny thing or something that frustrates me. This is something I really need to sit up and pay attention to.

Okay. So yes, again, this is somebody who RSVPs shows up late, who may show up consistently to different events, misses sporting events and concerts because they never get the ticket on time. You know they're going to be late for gifts. They drive their car on fumes because they're always late getting the gas or whatever they may need. So you're noticed in a variety of settings. And if you find yourself doing it at home, at school, at work, in relationships, that you're always doing this way, and if other people can get annoyed by you and tell you that you're a procrastinator, you may be a chronic procrastinator because you're doing it across time and across space. In science, that's what we look for, for consistency. Does it happen from day to day or time to time? And does it happen across location to location, time and space? So you have to see how well. Now, if it's only one task, I really don't like doing the dishes. I really don't like... For me, it's cutting the grass. I am dressed like I'm going to go cut the grass. I have all these excuses. It's been raining and it looks like it's going to rain again today.

But I'm not a procrastinator at all. You ask me to do something, you'll get it done. But that's something I will delay doing. Ask yourself, do you do this in different locations at different times? Have people told you're delayed? And as I said, this is men and women. There's no significant gender difference. This is young and old, urban and rural, different cities and the farm areas and the rural areas. No difference. All races. There is a difference between white-collar and blue-collar. White-collar procrastinate more. Let me make your listeners understand, because I understand you have a lot of countries here. This is not just a US thing. This is not only a Western culture. Because I've collected data with colleagues in Britain, Australia, Canada, Germany, Poland, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Spain, Ireland, Italy, Peru, Venezuela, Turkey, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Japan, South Korea. We're currently doing Iran, and I'm doing some more studies with people in Turkey, and I'm finding 20 %. Wow. So this is really global. Now the next question is, well, then this is this genetic? Are we just human nature? Are we born this way? No.

What?

No, we're not born procrastin-Oh, yeah. Some people will say, Well, there's nothing I can do about it. That's just who I am. I'm just, I'm always like, No, no. You learned to be a procrastinator.

From who?

You can unlearn it. Oh, from dads. But we'll get you there first. Dads? Yeah. So you learn to be a procrastinator. All right. So you can unlearn it. That's very optimistic. That means you're not condemned this way. Yes, you can teach old dogs new tricks. You just use a different bone and it takes them longer, but you can unlearn it. If you're born that way, if that's just who you are, then-.

Then you're screwed.

-let's just call it a day and it's over. There's nothing I can do with it. And that's why, unfortunately, too much of our culture is this way. Well, that's how they are. That's how people are. No, people can change. Let's be much more optimistic.

Dr. Ferrari.

In my.

Rambling- Hold on. I need to tell you something. Okay. I love you.

Thank you. Don't tell my wife, but that's okay.

I love you because I believe the same thing. Of course, you can fricking change. Yeah, it's hard, but of course, you can. And so what you just said made me take a deep breath because I, a thousand %, fall into the category of being a chronic procrastinator.

Do you mind sharing a little bit what that means to you, please, publicly? Are you.

Okay with that? Oh, of course. Absolutely. So all the way back to my academic career at Dartmouth College and Boston College Law School, every single paper was an all-nighter. Every single test was a cram session. I was late to every class. You asked me to do something, I'll forget. When you said, birthdays, the bane of my existence is that I forget, birthdays. I hate that about myself. I literally hated about myself. Anniversaries come up on me with my husband. We've been married for 27 years now.

Congratulations.

I forget to book plane tickets. I leave something on a plane everywhere I go. And I also have dyslexia. I also have been diagnosed with ADHD. I have this story that there's nothing I can do about it. And that in some ways, when I think about the creative process that I need this burst of adrenaline, like there's somethingabout the last-minute scramble that gets my ass going and gets my brain churning. I don't know if that's a story. I don't know if that's a habit. I don't know what the hell it is, but it drives me crazy. It makes me mad that I'm terrible at time management. It makes me embarrassed when I'm late. My husband calls it mel time. Let's say we have to be out at a dinner with friends at six o'clock. The drive is 10 minutes. It is 20 minutes to 6:00. Chris is dressed. He's already fed the dogs. He is walking toward the car. I am running around looking for my phone. I have one shoe on. I go into the bedroom, and now I think I have time to make three calls and make the bed and change my clothes.

And Chris literally will be sitting in the car in the driveway while I am running around the house like a lunatic, trying to find things. And it never equated the last-minute scramble, actually, with procrastinating. I equated it with poor planning, with-.

Excuse making.

Excuse making.

I got to shut up.

I'll let you go on for it. I'm making the note. No, no, no, no, no, no.

It's true. Because when you stop, I've got a whole bunch of stuff to say, but keep going.

What I procrastinate on is paperwork. I miss paying bills. I lose my credit cards all the time. I'm constantly without a cord charger for my phone, my gas tank. I feel like my form of gambling is to see how far I can go. And then I'm like, Why do I do this to myself? And it's this constant battle.

All right. May I jump in now, Ms. Robbins?

Yes, you may, Dr. Ferrari. So you.

Said quite a few things, so thank you for sharing with us all of these items. And in no particular order, I jotted down some things as you were saying them, so I don't want to go through them. You started off by telling us about your academic procrastination. All right. What I have found is that 70% of college students will delay writing, studying, going to that mentor, doing all these things. 70%. Now, remember, everybody procrastinates, but not everyone is a procrastinator. The college student might delay studying, reading, writing a paper, cramming at the last minute, doing all that. They may do it. But if there's a free keg of beer in the dorm, they're there. If Lady Gaga is given a concert for the first 50 people. Lizzo is in the other room. They're there. Then they're not procrastinators. They procrastinate. When you started off, I was saying, Okay, then she's an academic procrastinator, not a chronic procrastinator. But then you did move into other realms. You gave me a nice list of all these different tasks that your five million followers have said. My question to all of them, that is very nice, but is that the only thing that you're procrastinating with, because then again, if it is, then you're just procrastinating.

You're not a procrastinator. I'm not sure if you're familiar with, maybe some of your listeners are, we have a concept called meta-analysis. It's a research technique. Yeah, right. Okay. For those who are not familiar, a meta-analysis, a scientist takes previously published studies, takes all of them, enters them into a formula, and looks to see what's most effective based on these bodies of literature. Two of them have been done on interventions to deal with procrastination. The least effective technique, the technique that will not work with procrastinators is time management. What works is CBT, Cognitive behavior Therapy, because you need to change the procrastinators' way of thinking cognitive and the way they act, because it's not a question of time management. Time management, stop, it's not going to work. Change the way you think, the way you act.

How do we do that?

Well, you start.

With this- You read the book, still procrastinating. Awesome.

You start with the book, and then you go find a good, a PhD, a clinical psychologist who's cognitive, behaviorally trained, and you stop the excuse making. One of the things I talk about is they're very good at the but, howevers. Oh, yes, I was going to do that, but. I would could have done however. So your listener, who's a chronic, will listen to this go, Well, that was very interesting. That was entertaining. But in my case, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Oh, I understand. However, for me, look, as you know, the concept of, let me write something else down, please, if that's okay? Sure. There are three myths, and you touched on one of them, about procrastination. And that is, I work best under pressure. You told me about that one, too. I got to wait till the last minute. Do these procrastinators, do they work best on the pressure? The short answer is, No. All right, so we brought them in the lab. We had them work on a series of tasks and experiments and a series of studies. They had more errors. They did less. But when you asked them, How did you do?

I did great. I did so much better than everybody else. All right, so you don't work best on the pressure. That's one of the myths. You don't work best on the pressure. You think you do, all right? But you actually do more failure, thrill-seeking. And I heard ADHD and other kind. There's only been one study ever looking at ADHD and procrastination, and I did that in the '90s. With three samples, two normal and one clinical sample, a sample of people diagnosed with ADHD and found no relationship.

What are you blame it on?

On yourself. Why didn't you manage your time? You can't manage time. Indecision is a form of procrastination. It's a cognitive form. It's called decisional procrastination. We're reinforced by our culture for being a procrastinator because our culture reinforces procrastination. We don't reward doing things early. We punish for being late in our culture. If I don't pay my bills on time, I get a fine. I get an extra charge on my credit card. If you're like me and my wife, in our 39 years of marriage, we pay ahead of time, all the time. I get the bill, I pay it because I just want to get rid of it. All right? So at the end of the year, did they ever come back and say, Thank you very much. Here's a little extra gift. Here's two %. No, our cultures don't reward us for doing things ahead of time. They punish us for being late. Christmas shopping. Holiday season is coming up. If I wait to Christmas Eve, I get 70 % off. I get 80 %. Why should I shop earlier? I better wait till the last minute because look at what I'm going to get.

In fact, give me a gift card and I'll go after Christmas and I'll get even more because people aren't stupid. I say, Flip it, baby. I say, do it the other way around. Make that 70, 80 % off Thanksgiving time. And then it gets less and less and less. And if you wait to Christmas Eve, there's a 20 % surcharge. April 15th, taxes. Why should I pay my taxes earlier? There's no incentive. There's no reason. If I have to pay, let's just say the person has to pay, I'm going to send it in on April 12th, April 14th. I'm going to do it the last minute. No, government's got it wrong. Again, reward for doing early. We have to reward for doing early, not punish. I am not in favor of punishing for being late.

That makes sense. So how do you, as an individual that recognizes that you are a procrastinator, apply rewarding being early to your own life?

We can talk about that. But let me also clarify from the beginning. I'm not a clinical psychologist. And so I don't believe, as a research psychologist, that we should be doing street corner philosophy like this. Tell me the magic bullet, because that isn't how life is. You need to understand the person and their dynamics. You're asking me as everybody does. Just tell me the cure. Thank you for the causes. Thank you for the consequences. But I want the cures. Well, life isn't like that. But I'm going to respect your question in terms of asking of that. Well, one technique you can use comes back from the 1960s, the PROMAC principle. David PROMAC was a psychologist who found that you can use high rates of behavior to reinforce low rates of behavior. What does that mean, Ferrari? In other words, you can take something you like to do as a reinforcer for something you don't like to do. So you don't like doing the dishes. Okay, so you say to yourself, I'm going to wash these five dishes. If I wash these five dishes, then I'm going to watch Wheel of Fortune for five minutes or whatever the heck it is that you like.

If I do 10 dishes, I do 10 minutes. So you're making something you like to do as a reinforcer for something you don't like to do. Been around a long time. That's called the pre-mach principle. Public posting. Another thing from the '60s and '70s. Very easy today. Publicly post. Research has found years ago that if you publicly post something, in those days it was a piece of paper outside your office door or something like that, so people could see it, some high traffic area. This is what I'm going to do. This is what needs to done, then you're much more likely to do that than not. Today with social media, use it. Say publicly post it to your friends. Guys, I need to do this, and this is what I do. And if I don't do it, don't let me buy the tickets to the concert. I can't come out with you Friday night to go to the bar. Okay? And hold me to that. There's a fundamental question that is like, why do people do this?

Yes. Why?

Yeah. It's so maladaptive for... I hear you now. There's these myths, and it's irrational, and it prevents me. All right.

And it causes pain.

Them, and it causes pain for you and others. And by the way, another set of studies we've done, procrastinators don't like other procrastinators. They don't want to hang out with them. They blame them for the failures, everything. They're very interesting. So if you're a procrastinator and you think I'll get sympathy from other procrastinators, you're not. I am so frigging tired. I am so tired of people thinking it's time management and just you're lazy. You're not lazy. You're working your butt off doing something else. Okay, you're not lazy. All right? If I take my time doing something, if I don't meet the deadline and I delay, then I can simply say, I didn't have enough time. I know this is not the best thing. This is as good as I can get it. But if I had more time, I would have done better. So the lack of effort is not a positive image, but it's a better image than I did it and it's a piece of garbage. If you put something together... So people would rather have other people think that they lack effort, hence I procrastinate, than lack ability, because I can't change ability the next time I can try harder.

So there's this attribution tendency that people have, chronic procrastinated. Prox would rather have are very concerned about what we call their social esteem. As a social psychologist, procrastinators are very concerned about protecting their social esteem. Now you know what self-esteem is. That's how I feel about myself. Social esteem is how others feel about me. And I would rather have others think I lack effort because I want to maintain a good image with them. I want them to like me. Some researchers these days are calling it self-regulation failure. What does that mean? It's a new name for an old concept called delay of gratification. What these researchers are saying is that people procrastinate because they can't regulate the pleasure. They want the immediate pleasure now, and they can't delay it to the future. So they're not able to self-regulate. Well, I agree with that, but that's not the only reason. People tend to either choose or claim, two Cs, choose or claim handicaps in life. What does that mean? They choose to put something in their way. I was just talking to a person yesterday, and the person was saying that their teenage son loves pizza, but also is pretty good on basketball.

So if he doesn't think he's going to win that night, he eats a pizza. If he does poorly, he can say, Yeah, I lost. I shouldn't have had that pizza. See, it's not me that I didn't have the skill to show. It was the pizza. So people will choose handicaps or they claim handicaps. They'll say, I'm shy. I'm just saying that's what the literature says. It's not my fault. It's that thing.

But life is interesting. I want to ask you a question, though, because you just used the quote, choosing a handicap by saying, I'm shy, which I'm sure everybody listening that feels like they're introverted or shy or has, quote, social anxiety, went, But I am. But I am.

What does that mean, I am? Did you learn that? Is there a gene.

For that? I have no idea.

There's no gene for it. It's a learned tendency. So that is the way you are now. I am not dissing you. I am saying you can change. And isn't that amazing? You're not born that way. Don't tell me that is how I am. Say, That is how I am now. I can be different. I can be better. We have 70 years, 80 if we're strong. Yeah, that's all you got. Why are you procrastinating? Leave a legacy. Make the world better. Ms. Robbins, I hope that's what you're doing here with your podcast series. You're making the world a little better for those who are listening.

Are there different types of procrastinators?

The answer is no. There is behavioral and cognitive. The cognitive procrastinator is the indecisive, the decisional. We call them in the field, decisional procrastinator. Why would somebody engage in decisional procrastination? Because it's beautiful. I live out here in the Western suburbs of Chicago. The is a movie theater with 31 movies. Now, imagine going to the movies with an indecisive friend. What would happen? You'd walk up and they would look and they said, I don't know. And you say, Come on, what do you want to see? And what did they tell you?

I don't know.

I don't know. And you go, Come on, come on, pick one. Now, this is a brilliant move on these people's part, because what happens? You decide. And you decide. Now, if the movie is great when you leave, everybody's happy. But if the movies are dud, what are they going to tell you afterwards?

That was a terrible choice.

Yeah, you picked it. You made me waste $14. Why did you ever pick that? Why did we go there for a vacation? That was terrible. Why did we ever buy that car? I think it sucks. What's the matter with that dining room table? I never wanted that kitchen set. You see, the problem with the indecisive is they let other people do it. I call it in my book, bailing them out. It's okay to let other people. If you want to not make a decision, you have every right not to do it.

Not making a decision is a decision.

That's true. And therefore, shut up. In other words, you don't have the right to complain afterwards. You forfeited your rights. You gave up your ability to complain about it. If you let someone else make the decision, you got to live with that indecisive. I'm sorry. You had a chance.

I think this is an area where tons of people struggle. And when people write in and say, I'm stuck, I don't know what to do with my life.

The first thing is you limit the options. You don't take the indecisive to 31 movies. You take them where there's only a couple. You don't bring them to a smorgasb board buffet because they'll stand there and they go, Oh, my God, look at all the food. You go eat, okay? No, you limit the options for the indecisive. Do the math, as they say. There are pro and con lists also not considered effective. But if you do this twist to pro and con list, it works. You create the pros and con list. Don't just look at which one's longer, look at within that list, which items do you value? What's more important? Excuse me, the pro list may be short, but it has things you value more than the con. This may sound odd, but take your time. In other words, make an informed decision. Don't stall, ponder, pause, but produce. If you want to walk on water, you got to get out of the boat. If you want to succeed, you've got to take that risk. And so what would you fail? So what? Okay?

What happens in your brain when you procrastinate?

Why are you going there? Okay, we just said it's learned. Why are you looking for the physiological explanation? Because first of all, we don't know. Okay. And I don't mean to do that just because I'm a pump butt. It's also the truth. Let's stop turning for the excuse that there's a brain thing going on. And therefore that's why I procrastinate. If you're going to do that, then you're not going to change. And that's okay. I mean, you have a right to live in misery as.

One wants to. I think it's incredibly encouraging that it's learned because I agree with you. That means you can change it. And I also heard you loud and clear, forget the time management crap based on the research, none of that stuff is going to work for you. If this is something that you're chronically doing. And you also said very clearly, there is no shortlist, there is no quick fix, there is no top 10 tips when it comes to procrastination because this is about the story you've told yourself, the habits that you've formed, and that you avoid, avoid, avoid or seek pleasure instead of doing whatever the hell it is that you need to do, and it's become a habit. What's the link between perfectionism and procrastination?

There is a link, but they are separate concepts. It all goes down to that failure. You see, that perfectionistic person has to believe that I do well all the time. I've got to be perfect. It could be, as I said, others imposing this to me, society imposing this to me, or it could be, I'msure I'm concerned about my failures. So again, it's multidimensional. Procrastination is also concerned about the failure. And so I want to avoid it, avoid strategy. That society says it's okay. It all has to do with failure and that public image.

I think a lot about the person listening and the ache that you live with when you can't get out of your own fucking way. We're in 194 countries. Most of the people listening either can't afford the PhD, cognitive behavioral therapy program that you're talking about. And so for a person who really is aching because they are in their own way, they see themselves sabotaging, what can somebody that doesn't have access to what you're talking about do in their own life after hearing this? Baby steps. What are the baby steps?

Start small. First of all, what you're doing is you're looking at the forest and you're missing that the forest is made up of trees. There's that old expression, don't miss the forest because you're focused on the trees. That's not the procrastinators problem. It's the other way around. They see the forest. Oh, my God, this is a huge task. Holy cow, I can't get all of this done. And they forget that the forest is made up of trees. So listener, viewer, all right? It's made up of trees. And so what if you cut down one tree at a time? Oh, that's too much for you? Then let's give me three branches. You can't do three branches? I'll take a handful of leaves. Start small, do something. And so what if you fail? So what? This is what cognitive therapists would ask you to do. What would be the worst scenario?

Let me give you some examples of things that people listening.

To the show- Yeah, you're asking me to do the street corner.

Therapy again. No, I am not. You just told us to look at the trees. That is a concept. And I am on a mission to break down intellectual topics and research and conceptual ideas into tactical takeaways so that somebody knows what the hell you're talking about when you say- Yes, you want the cures. I don't want the cures. That's bullshit. What I want is I want just one step, because I see people writing in every day, listening to conversations between PhDs or people that are talking at a level that is all academic. But when you finish listening to this podcast, Dr. Ferrari, I don't want somebody to feel worse because they don't know what a tree means in their life. And so if somebody writes in and says, I procrastinate on working out and it's chronic. This is one thing that really bothers me, what would a tree be in that example?

I take exception. I'm known in 40 years of teaching to take the jargon and to make.

It the streetwise. I think you do. I'm taking it a step further because I don't have a PhD. I don't think it is either. You don't need to get offended. That's not what I'm talking about. I am the advocate for the person listening.

Absolutely. So am I. Okay. I would say that person is giving us that 80 %. I'd ask the person first, is this the only thing is working out the only thing you procrastinate on? Do you procrastinate in other areas of your life? And if they start telling me, Well, yeah, I know why I do that. Yeah, that's true, too. I don't like to do that. Then I say, Okay, then you're moving from that procrastinating to the procrastinator state, and that's something different. And I understand that many of you can't afford a good professional to help you through that. I understand that. Don't look at it time management. I gave a number of takeaways, but I think one of them is don't think you just have to manage your time. That's not going to work for you. It's like dieting. You'll start in the beginning, but you'll give it up. The person who doesn't exercise, can you make something you like to do? I said this before, something you like to do, reinforce that you'll exercise. I don't like working on a treadmill. So when I'm on the treadmill, I'm reading my prayers. I know it'll take me about a good 20 minutes to do that.

And so I can get at least 20 minutes of exercise, pair it with something you don't like to do. That would be my street corner answer to that one. Does that help?

I think it really helps. When you take that beautiful analogy of you can see the big picture, but you can't focus every day on one freaking tree. Is there something? And I hear all of the advice, the parrot was something that you enjoy. Break it down.

Yeah, it's all part of self-care. Show care to yourself. Listener, please. All right, you've got to make time. Take time for yourself. Now, the next day, do a little bit more. Make love a habit of the heart. Wow. Last week, I only spent two minutes on it. This week, I'm up to seven minutes. Now, you could say, Only seven minutes. I say, Wow, Yahoo! That's seven minutes more than you did before.

How do you know if you're making an excuse or you have a valid reason?

That is such a wonderful question. Why are you shopping now instead of later? And that was fascinating because I found two categories of these procrastinators, excuse makers. Some of them attributed to themselves. While I'm shopping now because I can't decide on gifts, I really don't like shopping. It's really unpleasant for me. So it's my fault, self-reason. So people will give external excuses, not my fault, that cannot be verified, that cannot be judged by other people. So how do you judge? And so therefore, these people will give us excuses that can't be judged by others to be true or false. So that's fascinating.

You know what I found fascinating about that? Is that when you said the excuse is aimed at you, it's my fault. That made my heart sink. Because when you always aim it at yourself, I would imagine that that makes you feel even more stuck or more ashamed or more beaten down.

Yes. Make a change. Yes, you're absolutely right. The self-devaluing, the self-criticism, it can be paralyzing and demoralizing, and it's just not right. People shouldn't be doing that. It'll take you a while.

But it can happen. One final question. For someone who's living with or loves a procrastinator, I'm asking on behalf of my husband who lives with a chronic procrastinator named Mel. Is there any advice or counsel or insight that you have to give to somebody who's dealing with someone like this?

I'm laughing because you've touched something personal. It's hard to change them because they're great excuse makers. They'll always tell you, You don't understand. They'll pull up something in the past. This is what happened. Don't you remember? How dare you force me? I'm my own person. Don't be a therapist with me or something like that. They'll throw that one in your face. So it's.

Not easy. Do you have a wife who's a procrastinator?

I am not allowed to say. Okay. She's now in the other room.

You're not supposed to talk about me. You're not supposed to talk about me. Oh, man. Well, I got to thank you. I really learned a lot. And I love how you don't hold back. No, I do. I really do. I love your passion for this.

Yeah, listeners, too. This is passion. This is not rudeness.

That's why I can go toe to toe with you because I'm equally passionate about what I do. And I deeply respect your research and your expertise here. I feel a deep level of hope from your message, knowing that this is a learned behavior, knowing that society rewards procrastination, knowing that you are completely lying to yourself with these excuses, and you are more capable than you're telling yourself, and you are able to make changes. And it begins with you. You can change. And you have given us not only the roadmap for it, but some very accessible things to do and to change. And so I just really want to personally thank you, Dr. Ferrari.

Thank you. And you touched on something. I failed is not the same as I'm failure. I'm not failure. I failed. It goes back to that same thing before. I procrastinated doesn't mean I have to be a procrastinator. Life is short, and I can make my life and other lives better, enriching other people's lives.

Well, thank you. I don't know about you, but after spending a little bit of time with Dr. Ferrari, I feel like I got to go do something. You know what I mean? No more procrastinating. But before I jump off the mic and I go tackle that pile of to-do's, I want to make sure I remind you that I love you and I believe in you. And I believe in your ability to take everything that you just learned about this topic and apply it to yourself. And I think the biggest takeaway from all of this is you can change. You can make a decision today that this is something that you're going to take seriously, that you're going to stop listening to those stupid excuses, I've got them too, and you're going to put your head down and start to chip away at it. And the most important piece for me is the self-compassion. As you do start doing the work to change, please savor it, be kind to yourself, and cheer yourself forward. All righty, I'll see you in a few days. Thanks for watching here on YouTube. And if you loved this episode of the Mel Robbins podcast, and we're going to want to watch this one next.

It's awesome.