You're 84, too? I'm 84, yes, sir.

Yeah, we got bad vintages.

Yeah, oh, this is one of the worst. Oh, thank you. Have you spent any time with Mark Dagnol, by the way?

No. Bro, he's ridiculous. He's so good.

No, he's on his shit. He's young, too.

Is he younger than us? Yeah, I think he's in 85. I looked it up the other day. He's definitely younger than us. Just a smidge. Like that? Yeah. All right, cool.

We're rolling, so you guys can see. Wow. Oh, we already rolling.

I don't like us. This is what we do. This is what we do. Welcome to episode 2 of Mind the Game podcast with LeBron James and JJ Redick, presented by Uninterrupted and 342 Productions. First of all, just wanted to say thank you for all of you who listened and watched to episode 1. We greatly appreciate the positive response from all of the stuff that we talked about. There's a lot more of X&O stuff in episode 2. The title of episode 2 is simply the Hardest Actions to Guard in the NBA. No, not necessarily the Hardest Players to Guard, but some of the best players in the world are involved directly in these actions, as you will see when we break it down. Two of the actions that we focus primarily on in this episode are the golden state split screens and inverted pick and rolls. All right, before we get to the plays that we're going to cover, I want to go over some of the key terminology. All right, the first two words are tilt and fire. I want to be clear here, every team in the NBA has a code word or a word for a double team.

A lot of teams I played on, we had a color scheme. So blue was a double team from the nail. Green was a double team from the baseline side. In this case, tilt and fire represent those colors. Tilt means in a post-up, a double team from the baseline side. Fire means in a post-up, a double team from the nail. Of course, we covered what the nail was in episode one. Next two terms are hedge and blitz. These are common terms in pick and roll coverage. Now, in the NBA right now, not a lot of teams hedge in pick and rolls. A hedge is simply when the screener's defender jumps out past the screener and tries to reroute the ball handler around the screener's defender, and then the screener's defender will retreat back to the screener. Again, not a lot of teams do that, primarily because everybody can shoot the basketball. Sometimes in inverted pick and rolls, or sometimes as teams are targeting matchups, certain players will hedge. For instance, if LeBron James is being guarded by Jonathan Kaminga, and he wants to get a switch for Steph Curry, He will have whoever is guarding Steph Curry come set a pick and roll.

More times than not, Steph Curry will hedge, reroute LeBron, and then return to his man. That is what a hedge is. A blitz is simply a double team on a pick and roll. All right, a go screen, or as LeBron calls it, a bluff screen. A go screen is simply when you run into set a pick and roll and you essentially don't stop, but you just run past the pick and roll and you either go to the three-point line or you slip to the basket. That's essentially what a go screen is. It's a go screen because you're not really there. You're essentially just trying to create confusion for the two defenders involved in what looks like a pick and roll, but is actually just a go screen. Tag and 2-9 go hand in hand. We have a defensive three-second rule in the NBA. So as a defender, you're only allowed to be in the paint for three seconds without without guarding anyone. There's two ways around this. You can tag a cutter, which simply means touching a cutter as he goes through the paint. 2-9 is simply a game of cat and mouse. How long can you be in the paint in a help position while not guarding anyone but not get a three-second violation?

One, 1,000, two, 1,000. You're trying to be in and out in 2.9 seconds. That's what we mean by 2,9. When you're watching a game and you see a player with one foot in the paint, one foot out of the paint, one foot in the paint, one foot out of the paint, almost like a tap dance, he's 2-9ing. A couple other simple terms, backside Side, weak side, strong side. Strong side is simply the side of the floor where the ball is. If a player is on the right wing, the right side of the floor is the strong side. If a player's position in the corner while that player has the ball on the right wing, then the player in the corner is on the strong side of the floor. If a player is in the left corner opposite the ball, the other side of the court, He's in the weak side. Backside is a little bit interchangeable with weak side. Backside is also a play where a player starts in a corner opposite the Let's say the point guard passes to the five man at the top of the key. The player in the corner then receives a pin down and comes along the three-point line and gets a dribble handoff from the five man.

That's Side. Think Manu Ginobili in San Antonio, or even better, think JJ Redik in Philadelphia. All right, I want to go over what is called a Verjao screen. A Verjao screen is actually named after LeBron's teammate in Cleveland, Anderson Verjao. All a Verjao screen is, is when a screener flips the side and angle of the screen. Let me show you. In this case, the Xs are the offensive players, the O's are the defensive players. In this case, the big man would run into this pick and roll, the defender would follow, and as he gets to the screen, instead Instead of setting the screen on this side where the offensive player would get to his right-hand, he simply flips the angle on the screen side and verjauze it, and the offensive player gets to drive away from the defense because most of the time, this defender of the screener has followed and is assuming he's going to provide help defense on this side. Verjau. Chaos ensues. Okay. Blind is something that we reference. Blind Pig is a triangle offense concept. I had to guard this concept playing against the Lakers. Pal Gasol and Kobe Bryant would oftentimes be the two players involved in this.

Then against the Knicks, oftentimes it could be Carmelo Anthony involved, Raymond Felton, Jeremy Lynn. Essentially what Blind Pig is, the ball is right here with this player. Here is your offensive player, the X, right O's are the defensive player. The X is being denied. This is Kobe Bryant. This year, this is Jalen Brunson. Isaiah Hartenstein will flash to the elbow. The ball then goes to Isiah Hartenstein right here. Jalen Brunson, who is being denied, then has a clear path to go receive the ball or get a drop-off pass, dribble handoff, whatever, turn the corner. Create habit. Blind pig. All right. Golden State post splits, a big part of this episode. We have so much visual component to this. You guys, hopefully, will understand this at the end. Again, this is another triangle concept. Let's do a two-man post split to start. How about that? Here's the ball. The ball goes into the post. Now, this pass for Golden State is not to score. This pass is to get Steph Curry and Clay Thompson into the action. Steph can split with Clay Thompson. Clay can backcut towards the basket. He can curl towards the basket, or he can come pop for three.

That's only one option. There are many options in this offense. Let's say Kavan Looney wants to get involved here. They throw it in to Draymon Green. Steph goes towards Clay Thompson Thompson, maybe Clay Thompson girls to the basket. Kavan Looney then cleans up Steph. Ball comes out to Steph. That's post- splits. It's impossible to guard. The other thing I just wanted to tell you guys on this episode for these drawings. Mab drew these. I did not draw these courts. This clip went out on social, America's Play, Baseline Out of Bounds, Pick the Picker, whatever you want to call it. This guy underneath the basket on a Baseline Out of Bounds play, B-O-B, Baseline Out of Bounds. There should be an extra O, but who cares? It's just B-O-B. This guy right here, that's the shooter. This is Kyle Corver. This is Steph Curry. This is Ray Allen. This is Duncan Robinson. He's going to set a back screen right here, a rip screen for a bigger wing, usually. Maybe you get a switch, maybe you don't. Maybe you get a layup here underneath the basket. This guy in the corner over here, this is Bam.

This is DeAndre Jordan with me. This is Joel Embiid with me. This big guy then goes and sets a screen for the shooter to come off towards the three-point line. If you don't get a layup, you might get a three in the corner. America's play, pick the picker. The other concept that we talk a lot about this episode is inverted pick and roll. Pick and roll, as most baskets say, is fans know it, is simply a ball handler, usually a point guard, getting a ball screen, so a live ball dribble from a big guy, a five man, a center. Think Kenny Smith and Hakeem Olajuwon. Think John Stockton and Carl Malone. Think Kobe and Shaq. It's a pick and roll. A normal pick and roll. The smaller player has the ball, the bigger player sets a screen for him. Inverted pick and roll is simply when you invert that. In this case, a bigger player has the ball, and a smaller player, oftentimes a really good shooter, sets a ball screen for the bigger player. Very rare that big guys can do this, but certainly a lot of them can. Joel Embiid, Nikola Jokić, Anthony Davis, Janis, of course.

Bigger wings will also run inverted pick and rolls. This is Duncan Robinson setting a pick and roll for This is me setting a screen for Ben Simmons. That is an inverted pick and roll. We actually had a call in Philadelphia. It was called 12 Rub Rifle. 12 was just a one, two pick and roll. I'm the two man. Ben was the one man. Rub was our name for a high pick and roll, which means in the center of the court. Rifle, I'll get to that in a second. An inverted pick and roll would be the smaller player setting a screen for Ben Simmons. If I set a good screen, Ben could get all the way to the basket. Sometimes I would slip to three, though. In that case, Ben would throw me the ball. Sometimes, like against San Antonio Spurs late in the game, I would make the shot and get fouled and have a four-point play to hit a game winner. But other times, this would be Joel Embiid. This is the rifle part. The rifle just means chase action. Sometimes the definition of a concept is in the word. If I said, go chase the ball, what are you going to do?

You're going to pass the ball and run after it. So 12 rub rifle is a inverted high pick and roll, followed by chase action. If I didn't have a shot, I would throw the ball to Joel Embiid, and we'd go right into chase dribble handoff. 12 rub rifle. Miami Heat, game 4, 2018 playoffs. Dagger. Do you look at basketball as a puzzle in some ways? I was with Missoula in September. He said, Competition is a puzzle, and you have to approach it through intellect. What I find when I talk to you or when I talk to CP or I listen to you guys, Ronda, of course, who we had on the pod last year, it's exploitation. I used the word manipulation once with Chris, and he did not like that word. I'm going to use a different word today. It's exploitation. You're exploiting, and sometimes it's maybe basketball IQ, sometimes you're maybe exploiting a matchup. I know that I was exploited a lot at the end of my career because by that time, it was about target hunting. Oftentimes, when I was on the court, I was the target.

It is like picking on the white guy. This is bullshit, man. I don't like that, man.

It bothered me so much. I remember, dude, when I was with Philly, we ended up not playing you guys in the playoffs. But that first year in Philly, because I was guarding point guards that year, because Ben wasn't good enough on the ball yet. They had him guarding bigger wings. I had to guard point guards. It was the first time in my career. So all of a sudden, I'm navigating a pickup point with Damian Lillard at 35 feet.

People would never understand that either, by the way. People that just watch casual basketball would never understand if you've been guarding two guards or small fours, whatever, your whole career, and then one year, you have to make the shift to now guarding point guards. It's a whole different… Your intent is now like…

It was so different.

Screens were coming. You're not used to getting hit with screens. It's a whole different. If the big don't talk to you, get cracked, you're like, What the fuck are you guys doing back there? And nine times out of 10, most bigs are not going to talk anymore.

I remember there was a game with Charlotte and Kemba Walker.

He's a shifty motherfucker. He's a shifty motherfucker. There's not too many guys.

He's doing that little left drop spin move. I'm like, Come on, man. What am I supposed to do? I remember we played you guys a few times that year, and I'm on the point guard, and you're just like, Come here every time. Fucking brawn.

That's T-Lu, man. No, that's not me. My basketball IQ is not that good.

But I think part of it, it's not for me, at least as when I played, of course, but also as an observer now, part of the matchup thing. If I go switch on you. You've now got a favorable matchup. Part of it is not just so that you can get a shot. Part of it, like basketball boils down to, can you put two on the ball? Yeah.

Now you create the four on three on the backside. I don't think many people know You know why? Because everyone now is a narrative of this thing called, I have a bag, or he doesn't have a bag. It bothers the fuck out of me. Everyone thinks just because you get a favorable matchup, that it means it's one-on-one time. Let's play ones. That's all you hear the kids talk about now. You want to play ones? You want to play ones? What the fuck is this? This is not Jordan versus Bird, Nintendo. It's five on five. And yes, if you have an opportunity to have a favorable matchup and you can beat your man, but realize something, most great teams are going to send help. And can you make the right reads? Can you make the right reads? Can you instill confidence in your teammates to win? You've scored twice on that favorable matchup. Do you know that the double is coming? You have to see it either coming from the tilt on the baseline or from the fire from the nail. You have to be ready for that. It takes time for guys, and some guys don't want to learn and won't learn because they just want to play once.

I've had guys on the court that literally said to me before, Why are you doubling me? Stop doubling me. Let me play once. You have four No, you have 40. We're going to double you, not only because you're great, but also I know none of your teammates have been in a rhythm all game, and we're going to see if they can make a shot. If they do, Derek Jeter, salute, kept to you.

Two things on that. I think the Clippers game the other night was a great example of that. First of all, they're one of the most switch-heavy teams in the NBA. It wasn't abnormal that you got going in the fourth quarter and they were switching Daniel Tyson to you. That is their normal defense. It is. You hit a couple shots on him, then they start doubling, and then you're making the read. There's a downhill or a snowball effect going down a hill to this. It's like one thing leads to another. I think in some ways, the player has to establish that he can score in that matchup. Then The next part is he has to establish he's going to then make the right read if you double. Then all of a sudden, if you're the offensive team, all bets are off. You're going to get whatever you want.

You're going to get whatever you want then.

Because the defense has no choice.

There's nothing they can do then. Not only are they off balance, they're just like, Oh, shit. It's nothing we can do. Because not only is the guy that's been dominating the one-on-one matchup making the right reads individually in that matchup, he's been scoring, he's been getting fouled, he's been drawing attention. But now you're seeing the double, and now his teammates are making shots, too. And the momentum shifts. The offensive team, there's nothing they can do wrong.

Do you think teams concede the switch too much? Do you think teams switch too much? Yes. Do you think more teams should just… If you're Atlanta, should you just hedge with Trey Young?

Absolutely. It's funny you say that in the Clipper game, we had a We had switching, built-in, versus Kawhi and versus James, in whatever the case may be, and I vetoed it in the second half. Because I know Tee Lou more than any other player that's ever been with Tee Lou, and I know he plays target ball, too. It got to a point where I knew in order for us to get back into the game, switching anybody else into Kawhi, it's not favorable for us. I might as well just get ready for the Wizards. So I vetoed it.

Are you able to do that on a nightly basis, though? Like, take that match up? It's asking a lot, LeBron.

It's asking a lot. At 39, I think I saw it the other day. I think I have 70,000 minutes. I was explaining to my wife the other day. She asked me, How am When I came home after the game, I said, Babe, just imagine buying a 2003 Escalade, and it's 2024, and you never changed the tires. So rub my feet, please. I've never changed the tires. These are the same tires from 2003. So can I do it every night, I don't want to say I could do it for a whole game. I'll take the challenge for sure. But that's just I'm a competitor. I was born that way. I was taught that way. I'll die on the court because I just love it so much. Am I being realistic? I got to pick my spots. Definitely got to pick my spots.

You've also picked your spots, though, on the offense, Ben. I was talking with Darvin about this, and I've I've spoken with Austin, too. There's definitely a stronger ability. I don't want to know if the ability is the right word, but a stronger ability to just let Dilo run the offense, to let Austin run the offense. I know you had that at different points in your career with different guys, but it seems like you're more content at this stage in your career to like, I'm going to pick and choose my spots about when I'm the primary creator.

Yeah, for sure. I Yeah, it comes with trust. It comes with trust, too. Obviously, last year in the Memphis series, AR gained a lot of trust from me, but also had trust in him to make the plays. I believe it was game three, maybe, or game two. I think they had home court. Yeah, they had home court. So it was either game one or game two, where in the fourth quarter, it was like, AR, let's go win it for us. I wanted to see. I play a lot of chess, not in real life. Actually, a lot of people have told me, You should play chess because you'll be great. I've never played chess, but in my mind, in theory, I feel like I play chess on the floor. I felt like if I could get AR and instill AR and that confidence in that fourth quarter to make plays and win that game, it was just going to pay dividends for the rest of my time with him and the the rest of his time when I'm not with him. I love seeing the success of my teammates more than anything. To have the ability now to be just like, I pick my spots.

Hey, Dilo, you got it. Ar, you got it. It means a lot, not only for me, but for our ball player.

All right, I'm going to go over these blitz numbers because we're talking about two on the ball. This is interesting. This year, top five players that have been blitz and pick and roll.Luca by a lot.Luca by far. By far, almost 200 more blitzes. Then everybody, the next four guys are bunched together. It's Brunson, Anthony Simmons, Dame, and Book. Top five by ISO, Yannis, Kawhi, Julius Randall, Anthony Davis, and Ben Carro. Those are the top five by ISO.Ben.

Kero, top five of the ISO guys.

It's interesting. I looked up your blitz numbers in the tracking era. You were first in ISO doubles in '13 and '14, second in '15, '16, and top 10 in '17, '18, and '19, '20. You've never actually been in the top 20 in blitzes against pick and rolls. Why do you think that is?

Because I make all the right reads.I.

Think it's that simple.It's that simple.

Teams know they can't blitz me in a pick and roll.

But what's interesting about Luca, I think, he's one of a handful of guys in this era that can make any pass against the double team. Any. James is one of them. You are for sure. Luca is one of them. So why are you blitzing him?

I don't understand it, especially with the shooting they surround me, too. It doesn't make sense.

I get the Brunson thing has been since Randall's out. The uptick in blitz has gone way up.

Yeah, for sure. I get that. Yeah, for sure.

I get that.

I get that as well. He's a one-head monster right now with the Knicks, and they're blitzing him and making other guys beat him. I saw Golden State do it a lot last night as well before our game. But yeah, it doesn't... Because he's going to make every read. When Tim Hardaway is hitting six or seven threes, you're done. Kyrie is going to do what Kyrie does. Luca is going to do what he does. When you get Tim Hardaway hitting six or seven threes, and in our game earlier this year, we blitzed Luca and Dante Exum hit five, six threes. Oh, that's right.

That I guess what's interesting to me with great players, because everybody always talks about mixing it up. You got to mix up the coverage, you got to mix up how you double, when you double, all that stuff. For example, just so we're clear on this, when you double. By that, what I mean is a guy's in the mid post in isolation against a mismatch.Is.

It on a dribble?Is it on a dribble?Is it on a catch?Yeah.

Exactly.how you double? As you said, tilt. Is it coming from the baseline or is it coming from the nail? You have to talk about all those things. I just think with spacing and with shooting, there's just no good answer. If people want explanations about why we're having all these scoring outputs, it's because there's not a good fucking answer. Atlanta blitz is the most in the NBA. They decided not to blitz Luka Donchik because they were worried about the consequences. And he had 73.

He had 73.

There's just not good answers for the best players right now.

No. It goes back to the three-point shooting, as you said. Teams are afraid of teams hitting six or seven or eight threes in a game right now. This is where all the switching occurs now. Everyone's saying, Okay, let's get to the switches. At least we will keep everybody home. But then you realize when you switch a nonfavorable defender on a great player, if that great player knows it's going to make the reads, they're going to get threes anyways because they're going to drive, there's going to be a help, and then there's going to be a numbers game. So it doesn't matter. So it has to come to a point, it's like, What are we willing to give up? Not what are we willing to stop. You can't stop great guys. You can't stop great players. Just hope they miss. But what are we willing to give up? And then you have to just tip your head. These scoring outputs is insane. I wish I was back in 2012 right now.

With the young tires. With the young tires. The tires with only 11,000. The switching thing is interesting, too, to me because there's certain teams that can put switch-heavy lineups out there. You need the personnel to be able to switch. You need the personnel. You need the personnel. You need to be able to switch. You need to be able to trust certain guys. So like, Tylu clearly trusts his bigs to be a switch. To the point, going back to Luka, I played on He had a team in '21 that lost in game seven against the LA Clippers. He trusted Zubats to switch on to Luka that entire series, despite the fact that Luka was killing him because he didn't want to get in rotation. What's interesting to me, though, about the switching against switchable lineups. You have five guys that are capable, is how creative teams have gotten with defeating the switches. It's two of the hardest actions to guard, to me right now, are It goes screens with a great shooter. Running into a pick and roll, it's not a traditional slip. You run into a pick and roll, you touch the guys back, and then you get behind the defense.

Then you get behind the defense, yeah.

If you have a guy like Chris Stapps-Porzingas or Jason Tatum that is doing that. You can't guard that. So you could be like, Oh, yeah, we're going to switch. Teams have now figured out ways to exploit switching.

I know Washington is in the shitter, but even last night, in our matchup last night, We got to a switching lineup, but Kuz was hip tapping AR, and we were calling switch. And AR, two times, couldn't get back to Kuz, and he was able to get into the lane. He missed one, made one. But that's exactly what you're just saying. Teams are figuring out ways to when the switch has happened, how can I exploit a switch?

That's interesting. You brought up the hip tap, too. So on the go screen, you called it a bluff screen. The go screen. You guys used to, when I was in New Orleans, KCP, I'd guard him. He would do this all the time. Let's say we are in a switch defensively. We're in a switch. If the guy slips on a go screen, my job is to go with him.

Yeah, call square. Square, square, slip, slip.

But offensive players, as they're running up in the screen, they tap the guy on the hip. You're supposed to switch on contact. When you feel the contact, you think it's a switch. Now the ball hand is yours.

And I'll open up and he's gone.

And I'm doing my job because he slipped, so I'm going with him. That's why it's hard.

That's why it's hard.

In real-time, it's like, Yeah, we can have all these rules, but then you got to do it in real-time.

That's why the NBA is the best league in the world. That's why it's hard for me to watch my son play College Basketball.

You want to go there?

Listen, I loved you in College Basketball. I fucking hated Duke, but I love watching you. I love Duke now because K is my guy now, obviously, for obvious reasons. But it is hard watching a 40-minute college basketball game. It's hard. I get more anxiety, and I sweat more watching college basketball, especially my son now, than I've ever done in my life.

I still watch legitimate teams, ranked teams. They will run a play, and their best player will get the on the wing, and they will have a non-threat big man posting up on the same side, and the guard or the wing will drive into the occupied post. I'm like, Guys, it's 2024. We can all watch YouTube. There's a wealth of information out there. Why are we still playing this way?

I've never understood why a coach would throw the ball into a post with his big that has no business with the ball in the post. The only time the ball should go into the post to the big, if he's automatically As soon as he catches it, flat in the defense, he goes right back into a DHO uphill. Uphill DHO. Roll. If he's not a pocket passer, you can't throw it to the rim. Or his job is to just shrink the defense because his roll was so dynamic. I watch college games and I see guys throw the ball in the post of guys, and they turn around and shoot a jump shot or a running left-hand jump hook.

This one drives me crazy. You see a few young NBA guys that will get like a... Because we don't post anymore unless you're like Joel and Beaton Jokich, right? You see young NBA guys, they'll get a rebound and the defense will be on them and they'll shoot. You know the shot I'm talking about, the big guy shoot. It's not a real shot, man. It's not a real shot. It's not a real shot. There's one other thing you can do on the post, which leads me to, God, fucking segue is so good, man. I love it.It's.

A good conversation.No.

It's great. Somebody asked me this the other day, they're like, triangle concepts. Nobody runs the triangle anymore. Does it exist in the NBA? In the truth of the matter, there are still concepts that exist. The Chicago Cut, which was when you throw it in the post, the guard would cut through, screen in the middle of the paint. For the big guy, you don't want to switch that. If you do switch it, You know, Pekovich from Minnesota would catch the ball at five feet against me and just jump hook. Easy-breezy. Teams don't really run the Chicago Cut anymore. The two things that they still run, Blind Pig, which New York runs for Brunson all the time, where Hart or Mitchell Robertson flashes the elbow. You deny Jalen Brunson, he's getting that back cut going downhill. They'll get into the step-up pick-a-rolls with blind-pick action. Then the Golden State post-splet.

The Post-splet.

The Post-splet.

The post-splet.

I have been wanting to have this conversation with you for so many years because I have said, Golden State post- splits, specifically with that team, is the hardest action to guard. I was doing research on something else the other day, and I was looking up because I was for a Boston game because Porzingas has the highest efficiency in the tracking era for points per direct post-up. Every time they switch a smaller guy on him, he's mashing, whatever. Draymond was at the top of the list for a bunch of years. In 1819, he had the highest efficiency on post-ups of any player in the NBA. You're like, Well, Draymond doesn't score in the post. But they're throwing him the ball, and either Steph and Claire run their action. We saw back in '22, Wiggins would be the screener, slip for the dunk. They also involved the big. Steph and Claire doing their little dance.Luny.

Then comes and cleans it up.Luny, yeah. Because the big is going to drop.Luny is sitting in the damn pain. Exactly.

It's the hardest thing to guard. You guard it at four straight finals. What are your thoughts on how to defend it?

When Draymond catches a ball in the post, the first thing you have to do, you have to track his eyes. You can't track the ball because Draymond has the ability. They started to take out in our league, this is a swip through. So obviously, he has his back towards the basket. You have to track his eyes because if you track the ball with your hand, he'll go in the middle of your arms. He used to get that foul. The second thing you have to do, you have to get the bodies right away. And you can't get to the top side because Steph and Clay are great at back doors and get to the rim. You have to get to the lower hip of them. Who's ever setting the screen has to give a little space so you don't allow to slip. The guy that's guarding, either Steph or Clay, that's coming off, you have to get to the bottom hip of their shoulder and trail them all the way out. The two Two most important people in the whole thing is the two guys that's weak side. When they have certain shooters out there, it's very difficult.

But nine times out of 10, When we were playing them in the finals, at times, it was Javel McGee and E. G. D.ala. It was Andrew Bogut.Shon Livingston.Shon Livingston, Harrison Barnes. When everything went haywire, when it was fucking Kevin Durant over there and another shooter, it was impossible to guard because you couldn't help from the weak side because now Draymond is such a great IQ player. If you help, if you tag from the guy on the weak, he throws it all the way across court. You can actually see there's a play that you can watch on YouTube, probably, where they were taking the ball out on the SOB. Side of the bounce. Yeah, not son of a bitch. Sorry, guys. Side out of the bounce. I was getting ready. I was two-nining on the strong side because they were about to get into some split action. Steph takes the ball out and throws it all the way to the weak side corner by their bench, and I try to close out the KD because I'm looking, trying to shrink the floor. He throws it from the sideline, I bounce all the way across, I close out, slips, falls on the ground, KD dunks the ball.

But back to your point, I don't understand. Well, I do understand why most teams don't run it because they don't have-They don't have the personnel. They don't have the personnel. They don't have the personnel. There are certain teams. Right now, Mike Brown in Sacramento is running some split action. He has those shooters. He has, obviously, Kevin Herder. He has the kid, Keegan Murray, who can shoot the pitch of the ball. Also the speed of De'Aaron Fox. They're playing a lot of pinch posts with De'Mones, who's now triple Double threat every game.

You need a pastor like Sabones. You have to have a pastor like Sabones or Draymon.

Yeah, exactly. Draymon is Draymon, Morton Gasol back in his day. Certain guys, obviously, Joker, he does. He's one of a kind. But you have to have the personnel. You have to have the personnel.

The thing with the post- splits for me is like, you can... Let's say they involved Looney.

What do they call you? What do your kids call you? Dad. Why? No, when you're coaching, what do they call you Coach JJ, coach-Oh, they just call me JJ. They just call you JJ. Oh, shit. Okay. I'm going to lock your iPhone first. No, we don't want to talk to you right now, Siri.

They just call me JJ.

They just call you JJ. Okay, you got a good chemistry with your kids.

I tell them this all the time. You brought up the flubbing, the ATO play.

Yeah.

I don't care if you miss a shot. I don't even care if you take a bad shot. I've never yelled at a kid or gotten on a kid for taking any shot. I never have. Now, I may, after a game, be like, Hey, we were up seven with 42 seconds. You didn't need to shoot it. You tested step back three. We could have just dribbled the clock out. What drives me crazy, though, is when I draw an ATO and then we go out and they forget it. It was like, Dude, it's been 10 seconds. My big thing with them now is Don't worry about what I'm drawing up. Just watch you. Just pay attention to you.

That's it. Just watch you. Just watch you.

That's it. Anyway, let's say you involve Kavan Looney or whatever. The big decides to be in a drop back here. Steph and Clay, they're up here doing their dance or whatever. They're going to get an open three. If you switch out with Kavan Looney's guy, I think what's always been difficult for me as someone who's guarded that action. You were talking about body position. Bro, sometimes it doesn't matter. They're so good. The second you get on that angle, the second you turn your head, the cutting to the basket is the hardest part to me. I They can chase over a screen and get a contest on three. But they keep you off balance, which is interesting that you bring up the weak side being the key to the whole thing.

But that's like, what you're saying is advanced basketball. You're saying if I'm going Draymond in the post, Kavon Looney is at the quad, they're doing their thing.

At the free throw They're doing that thing.

You're saying that if he has a wide open three, why not? Or you're saying Draymond's man just go take it and then Kavon Looney just stays in the paint?

Is that what you're saying? No, I'm saying as this guy as one of them. So we can switch this action. Let's say we're switching this action. I'm saying if Kavan Looney is so worried, his guy's in this drop and he's off the body, we're going to live with the contested You're going to give that up if you're worried about taking the layup. Yeah, for sure. The second you bring Kavan Looney up, they're getting a layup.

Yeah, for sure.

They're getting a layup. Yeah, you're getting a layup. It's too hard to guard. The dance is too hard. And they've done it so many times. You're absolutely right. You go back to that 22 Dude, that 22 finals run where they just like, All right, so Wiggens is getting guarded by whoever. Draymond's got the ball, and we're just going to involve two people. We're not even going to put the big in there. How many cuts did Wiggins get? He runs into the to the split action and doesn't even stop.

He doesn't even stop. It just slips right to it. It's a layup or a dunk.

You know what's interesting? You think about that run, you're talking about getting in the playoffs, you can't beat high basketball IQ teams with a low basketball IQ team.

No, there's no way.

At the time, Some of those teams I didn't think were high basketball IQ teams.

You're absolutely right.

It's interesting. Aaron Gordon talked about that because they beat them in the first round, and that was a big takeaway for me. Now, they didn't have the personnel. They didn't have KCP. They didn't have the personnel. Murray was But I'm not saying... I would never say a guy's dumb. I'm saying basketball IQ. Yeah, for sure. They got outsmarted that series. Jokić was a monster, all that stuff, but they got outsmarted.

They got outsmarted.

Aaron Gordon has talked about coming off of that series being like, I got to become a smarter basketball player. To win at the highest level.

To win at the highest level. He did it. There's a lot of things, other things I would do in basketball, too. It's a couple of other coverages I would do. The Pick the Picker, B-O-B. Not Boms over Bagdad, but Baseline Out of Bounds. America's Play. America's Play. You have the best shooter sitting in the middle of the lane. You have the bigger's wing sitting at the top. Five is on the strong side. You have the point guard taking it out.

In the weak side corner.

In the weak side corner. It's not many times that the guy, the wing, that's coming down the middle, gets that pass. Because in theory, if you're going to the ball, one, 1,000, two, 1,000, take away the basket, and then jump out to take away the shot. I've always wanted to, no coaches ever allowed me to do this or given me the freedom to do this. The guy that's guard the ball, when he says one, 1,000, two, 1,000, three, 1,000, why doesn't he just take the guard that's coming out for the pick the picker? And the guard that's guard the pick kicker guy just falls right to the guy that's taking the ball out.

Yeah.

You go 1,000, 2,000. Jj Redick is flying off left, right, where you know he's dangerous. He can shoot straight up and down if he wants to, or he's going to fade if he wants to as well, maybe kick you.

It's my natural shooting motion. It's my natural shooting motion.

I'm going to the ball, I just take JJ, and the guard who was chasing you just falls right to the guy that's taking the ball out. That's We could talk about that.

No, no. It's interesting about that. I like that. I'll tell you why. Because someone who ran that play, right? Whether I slipped or set the screen, I'm coming off. A lot of teams after 2-1-1, would send the guy, the garden, the takeout guy, they'd send him to me. The problem is my guy is still chasing me. So what happens? I get the ball. I don't have a shot because now I got two guys at me. It's a quick pass back to the inbounder. He gets a layup.Don't chase you. That's what I'm saying. It's actually a good coverage.

Take you to the screen, and at the screen, the X5 that's guard in the pick the picker big opens up and you slide right to the guy that's guard. I didn't know if you wanted a second glass. I didn't know. I love talking basketball, by the way.

The other play, and it goes back to the go screen, that I think is really difficult to guard, and you've been the ball handler in this case, is the inverted picking roll. So Yannis, fucking Jokić now, Embiid now, all these guys, they take the weakest defender, they take a shooter, whatever it may be, and they go set an on-ball screen for the big.For the big. Last night in the Knicks game, Draymon had it at the top, and Steph was in the paint to go set the high pick, to go set this inverted pick and roll. Now, Steph has a number of options here. He can slip out, he can set the pick, they can They can go back to a dribble handoff if you pass Steph. Their two-man dance is really hard. They decided to top lock Steph, so he couldn't get to the screen. Steph screened him. Steph screened him into Draymond's guy. Draymond got a wide-open dunk. That is an insanely difficult action to guard. Fucking last year in the Western Conference Finals, I can't remember which game it was, but it was in the fourth quarter, they ran that three times with Murray as the screener, Jokić as the ball handler.On the right wing.Right wing, right in front of the bench.

Right in front of the bench.

How would you guard that?

There's a couple of ways you can… How do you guard it? How do you stop it? It's two different things. Depending on the ball handler, his shooting ability, if he's not a great shooter, or numbers-wise, he hasn't shot the ball well, then the guard that's guarding the screener just We call it a smack. You stay body on body with the screener, and the big that's guard in the ball, X4, X5, whatever, goes to removed. So he goes not only under the screener, he goes under his teammate as well. If the big is not a great shooter. If the big has it going and he's shooting a well, i. E. It could be Joel, it could be Prisingis, it could be Joker, where he might be shooting a well, then the guard can get out and give a hard-ass hedge, and the big that's guard the ball goes one remove. So he goes underneath his player, in between his player and the offensive player. But if that doesn't work, then you have to switch and then fire. And with Joker, that's what makes their team insanely to guard because when you switch and you fire, he can make every Every single pass.

And fire means double from the top.

All right, so two things to this. In the first scenario, and again, this is why I'm asking you because I want to tell you now why it's hard, and you know this, I'm not telling you, I'm telling the audience. The first scenario, which you described, which is a non- shooter, i. E. Giannis, i. E. Ben Simmons. Okay, so I'm setting an invert. We called it 12, and we would get in sometimes, we get into 12 rub rifle, which is then I would slip out, Ben would hit me, I'd swing it, immediately go to chase action with Joel in the right corner. I either get a shot or a pocket pass with Joel. But in a normal 12 rub with Ben, if the defense was all the way back-He has a runway. Not only that, I'm just going to go get a dribble handoff and get a wide open shot. If you want to play off of Joel with Maxi, and Maxi wants to say, Maxi, just go get the ball and shoot a ball jumper at any point in time. The other reason I think this is so hard, because I took a lot of pride in my screening, big guys are terrible at navigating screening.

For sure. In the second scenario, when you're talking about going third man removed, that sounds great in theory.Right, right, right.The problem is-I mean, maybe I was just speaking from a-No, no, no.

I have Anthony Davis. I know. Who's a hybrid. But yes, you're absolutely right.

That's the other part of this. You're absolutely right. And by the way, they let guards. They just do. I can hold them. Yeah, for sure.

He's not used to shooting the gaps.

No, you're right. You go run a normal high pick and roll where I'm going to screen the five man first. I go down, screen the five man. I can come back up in a Spain action or I can go out to the corner. I would sit there. I sometimes be on the screen for four seconds. Yeah, for sure. They just don't know what to do. Then all of a sudden, they're chucking me in the throat or pushing off. I get an offensive job.

That's what makes it even more dynamic because then when you have a guy like Yannis and Ben when he was in his groove, and Joel and now Jokey, they have the ability to Obviously, Yannis is the best at it. And today, he has the ability to have the defense go one way, and then the guard will flip screen it. So now the guard that's guarding X2 You're going to see that. He'll be on this side, getting ready to show or blitz or head, and now they flip the screen. And when he crosses over, there's nobody over there. And then once Giannis gets to the launching pad. It's over. He's going to dunk you and the ball in the ring. Come on. Let's do it. Grandma of the Glass, man. Jj, I want to finish this. Oh, yeah. I brought these from Man, that's what we're feeling.

How are you? Zultas?

Yeah. You know it.

Debron, thank you for your generosity with the wine. Oh, I appreciate you. I appreciate it. I'll make sure. Home court. Home court. Last time I was ready. Last time I was ready. So I'll have some for you next time.

I can always bring a wine. I got plenty of it. I don't need somebody to drink with.

Hey, guys. Thanks for listening. Thanks for watching Mind the Game podcast. If you like it, please hit that subscribe button. Thank you..