I mean, I don't know if it was intentional.

I had so many people like wine people text me.

Oh, yeah, me too.

Dm me, like, couldn't quite make out. I knew. I knew you were drinking the one, Rousseau.

What was the other one?

Or.

Yeah, someone called me last episode one said, he's not. He's not gonna waste a drop of that wine. But I poured juice up. When I said, oh, sorry, I didn't know. You want another glass? I poured you some, and we're talking. And then conversation, I wiped the bottle, like, lick my finger. It was, oh, yeah, he's not wasting the drop of that.

Welcome back to mind the game with LeBron James and me, JJ Reddick. This is episode three. We're going to be talking a little bit about the evolution of spacing in the NBA during both LeBron's career and my career. We're also going to be talking about the evolution of certain positions, certain cuts. It's going to be a great episode. No, we have not upgraded to animation. No, we don't have a whiteboard yet. The whiteboard was sent to Los Angeles. I'm recording this in Brooklyn, so you're stuck with the paper. Guys. A few key concepts I just want to review before we get to our conversation. Just as a review from episode one. Floppy is a catch and shoot play. It's very simple. On either side of the lane, there's two bigs. The point guard has the ball up top, and the two wing players are underneath the basket. The shooter can come out either side, make a play. In the context of this conversation, it's funny because LeBron James never runs floppy. So in this episode, we talk about corner splits. Think the Sacramento Kings with Chris Weber and Vladi Devotch as the passers. Mike Bibby, Peja, Bobby Jackson, Doug Christie, those guys as the shooters and cutters.

A more recent example was Rick Adelman when he was in Minnesota in the mid 2010s. Kevin Love, Kevin Martin, Ricky Rubio. That's what these guys ran. A lot of corner splits is very simple. By the way. By the way, I apologize. A number of people have pointed out that the defensive players are supposed to be the X's and the offensive players are supposed to be the O's. Here's the thing. I've only had one coaching job in my life, and that is coaching eight, nine and ten year olds. Now, when you coach eight, nine and ten year olds, it can be very confusing to have Xs and Os on the court. So I decided to draw xs because they all thought the O looked like basketball and that confused them. So for me, I draw my offensive players as xs. All right, corner split. There is a wing player in a corner. The ball handler brings it up a side. In this case, we're going to bring it up the left side. And the big that is Vladi Divac. Kevin love. Chris Weber is somewhere in the vicinity of the elbow or high post area. You can occupy the weak side in a number of ways.

Have a guy in the corner, have a guy high. You can have a guy in the corner or have a guy in the dunker spot. Because I don't love the dunker spot. We'll put the other guy in the high quadrant.

Point guard brings it up.

He would hit the big Chris Weber, Vladivoc at the high post. He then goes into split action. As a reminder, split action is just when two offensive players go to screen for each other off the ball. And again, they can cut, they can curl, they can set a back screen or a rip screen. A rip screen is the same thing as a back screen. Oftentimes again, the meaning is in the word. If I was to say, I'm going to go set a back screen for you, where would I screen your defender? I would screen his back. That's the same thing as a rip screen. So in this case, this is Peja. This is Mike Bibby. Mike Bibby can go set a downstream for Peja. Peja has a number of options here. He can curl to the basket, he can back cut, he can chase the basketball, he can come for a dribble handoff. In this case, let's say Mike Bibby sets a great screen page. It just comes off. Vladi hits him, he hits a wide open jump. That's corner splits. All right, spread, pick and roll. All that means is there's nobody in the dunker spot, there's nobody in the paint.

All five players are spread across the perimeter. Depending on where the pick and roll is located. Let's say it is up top. The ball handler here you have a guy in each corner. This is a right handed player, so we want to go to the single side. So we'll put this, this guy in the high quadrant, and then the screener would then come set a pick and roll again. Everyone is spread out. Nobody is inside the paint. The opposite of this, of course, would be, let's say this guy will eliminate him and put him in the dunker spot. That is no longer a spread pick and roll. That's just a pick and roll five out delay. Again, the meaning is in the word. Five out. Five outside of the three point line. Five out. This is, I think, one of the biggest revolutions, evolution in today's NBA. You no longer see two people run to either block as you did for a long time in the NBA. You still see it some in college, you certainly see it some in high school. Five out is how most NBA teams play. It's not necessarily a play as it is a set and a concept.

So for the purposes of this, let's say it's off a miss. Everybody's sort of run. You get two guys in the corner, one guy on the wing, ball handler bringing it up, and then the trail guy who got the rebound or who took it out is running down the center of the floor. Okay? Within that you can get to a number of options. You can play a step up, pick and roll here. You can run a stagger screen away. A stagger screen. Again, it's in the word two players, a stagger one screen, two screen. You can run away action away. Action again, meaning is in the word. You go away from the basketball, you screen away like this. Boom. That's Deandre Jordan screening for me. That's Brooke Lopez screening for Kyle Korver. That's just away action. A lot of teams will hit the five man, though, at the top, and then they will get into split action. Delay is just another name for five out again, because I've got a white piece of paper, not a whiteboard. I can't go over every single option out of this. But this is the essential idea. A five out or delay.

Okay? The short roll. This is one of the most important concepts in today's MBA. It's a big part of this conversation as well. Let's just go back to that spread pick and roll. Okay? So within that spread, pick and roll, the five man is going to set a screen for the ball handler to get to his right hand. Okay? And let's say the help side is here. Here. Strong side, strong side, ball side is there. The big is up in the pick and roll. And the guards and the defender of the point guard is right there. As this guy comes off, they put two on the ball. The short roll is essentially the area between, call it the restricted area and the three point line. So at any point in time, if you get the ball to the five man in this area, that forces a reaction from the defense. Now, this guy almost always will pull over as the low man. He's the lowest guy on the floor. He's the low man. That's his responsibility to protect the rim. This guy, as we discuss sometimes, will drop here, and he will essentially have responsibility on these two guys.

Once the ball is in this area, this is the short roll area. Anywhere, again, between restricted and the three point line. The short roll area is where today's big man makes plays. A lot of guys are not shooting necessarily right here. They're not short rolling to shoot this shot. They are short rolling to either shoot a floater, hala Jokic, to make this cut, this path pass to this cutter, or to spray out to this man for a three. That's the short roll. Another concept we talk about is the slot cut. Just to be clear here, the slot is another word for the high quadrant. It's another word for the wing. In a spread pick and roll, the slot is considered the guy on the wing. You have the corner, the corner, and the two people in pick and roll. So this would be the slot right here. The slot cut is simply a timed cut. Let's say the ball handler turns the corner, the big rolls, the defense reacts. It's a time cut out of this slot to get the ball in this area, the paint rim, whatever. Go dunk the basketball. Now, you can also, let's say you're posting the ball here.

You can have a slot cut out of the post. A slot cut is just a cut from this slot area. Thank you guys again for watching, for listening. LeBron and I have really enjoyed recording these episodes talking basketball, and I hope you guys have learned something and enjoyed it as well. Appreciate you. This is episode three of mind the game evolution. Cheers.

Cheers very much. Enjoy the first episode.

Absolutely.

I'm gonna ask you a question, and we can edit this out if need be. This is just. I just want to get the conversation started this way. That's great, because we were just talking about young guys, and I felt, towards the end of my career, once I had figured the league out, and I again figured league out, meaning, like, I had a job, you know what I mean? Not like I'm an all star, but once I figured the league out, I felt like I could tell within two or three days of being around a young guy whether he was going to be all right in the league. Do you have that, too? Do you sense that?

Yeah, absolutely.

What are the markers for you where you say, this guy's going to be.

Good coaches and veterans, being able to get on them, and there's no snickering, there's no back talk, there's no, man, all that. It's just almost they almost look like, just keep on coming with it because I want to see how much I can. I want to see how much. Just keep on, keep on. Because I'm absorbing everything. That's when you know, like, oh, he's. He's going to be in this league for a long time.

One of the things that I always noticed was, and I wasn't perfect at this when I was like a rookie especially, there's an element of fear, meaning once we step on the court, I'm not scared, but there's an element of fear. Like, I need to be in the training room on time.

Yeah.

I need to do all the lifts that my strength coach is telling me to do. If my PD got player development guy, my PD guys telling me, be on the court at 10:00 for an 11:00 practice, that guy's there at 955. It's like the small stuff.

Yeah, it's the small stuff. It is a small step.

We are recording this on Thursday, opening day of the NCAA tournament. Official opening day. I do not count the play in.

Yeah, I don't count the play in. Not cause I've been in the play in a couple of times now as an NBA player, but I do not count the play in.

I don't get. It's like, it's not official cause you're still playing into the tournament and your high school coach just got a big win about an hour ago.

Yes, he did.

What, what did you learn from him?

Oh, my goodness. I think the number one thing that I learned from him right away is how to not only approach the game, but also how to think the game and also play at a level that was a lot harder and determined than the AAU tournaments that I was playing in beforehand. I got to coach Dan Brock my 9th grade year. So my first year of high school. First of all, back to the fear thing. When you go from middle school to high school, you already terrified of what lies ahead. You don't know what to expect. And obviously, you know, in Ohio, you have 6th, 7th and 8th in middle school. So you have that feeling coming out of elementary, going to the middle school. From the fifth to 6th grade, you have that fear of older people in the schools and how is it going to affect you and things of that nature. And then you go to the high school and you see, you know, kids with beards and, you know, teachers, they just look so much more massive. You, you know, and. And I'm going to a coach that is a former college basketball coach, and you hear the stories.

I mean, you know, firsthand, probably, or maybe you don't, because you were great. Maybe I have to do everything. But, you know, I heard, you know, the stories of, like, you know, 05:00 a.m. Wake ups to go run the mile. Or, you know, this was your high school coach. This is my high school coach. This is my high school coach. This is my high school coach. You hear the stories of, like, you know, one mistake, everyone's gonna run until the coach gets tired. And in my head, I'm like, how in the hell does the coach get tired if he's not running? So you're, like, terrified of all of this, you know? So the one thing, back to your question that I learned from coach D is that we're gonna practice perfection every single day. Every single day. He always should tell us the game. The practices are gonna be way freaking harder than the gains. And you don't understand that every time the coach said, get on the line, that's a universal. That's a universal word right there or universal term right there, get on the line. You know, that's the last thing you want to hear as a basketball player to get on the line.

But he was, he was super strict. He was super demanding. He would get in your face, call you out of your name. There were kids whose parents used to come to practice that he would call them out of their names right in front of their parents. My sophomore year, my freshman year, we win the state championship. We go 270. I was mvp of the tournament. Obviously, Maverick was our captain. My freshman year, my sophomore year, the first practice I was came in as projected number one player in the state of Ohio. I was projected to be all american as a sophomore, projected to be mister basketball as a sophomore, which had never been done in Ohio high school history. And the first practice we had, our sophomore year at the winter state championship, I did absolutely nothing wrong coming out of football. He kicked me out of practice. He kicked me out of practice. I had no idea why the fuck he kicked me out of practice. And I think he was just setting the tone for the season. Yeah, like, wherever the fuck or wherever you think you are. Yeah, I've heard all of this stuff about how great you are and things that, nope, I'm a humble yo ass right now.

He kicked me out of practice. And the last thing he said to me when he kicked me out of practice, first day of practice, he said, best sophomore in a country, my ass.

I love that. I love that.

Setting the tone right away, best sophomore in the country. My ass and kicked me out of practice.

I actually think I had a healthy level of respect. So I played varsity as a freshman. But actually my school, middle school was 6th through 9th grade, so I didn't even go to high school yet.

Hold on, say that again.

So it was 6th through 9th grade. We didn't have space, enough space in high school. A year after I left, they built a second high school. They moved down a division, that sort of thing. Right, right. So I'm coming off 8th grade. I start jv. I grew seven inches that year. I learned how to shoot without my left thumb. Started shooting a real jump shot. I go to AAU nationals in Florida, average like 35 a game. So I'm coming into freshman year with a decent level of confidence. And I knew my high school coach was tough because my JB coach was so tough, but I was brash and cocky. You know, the kid you saw at Duke early on, I was that kid.

I was that kid.

And we were playing preseason. We were just like doing pickup. So we would do these stations where you had like 30 seconds to a minute on. So 30 seconds to a minute on wall sits, 30 seconds to a minute on d slides with bands, 30 seconds to a minute on jumping jacks with weight, like all this stuff. And we do that for like 30 to 45 minutes. And then we'd play pickup. So there was this senior named Kevin Conley, and he was good, but I also played his position and he hadn't started the year before, so he was like very much wanted the starting position. So we were playing pickup. And truthfully, Kevin, I was busting your ass. I was busting his ass.

No, take a.

And I started yapping off and he said to me, he said, I'm telling you right now, shut the fuck up. And he gave me the look, mind you, I'm my size, but 155 pounds. So I was like, oh, he's going to kick my ass. And I didn't say anything. We checked the ball up. As soon as somebody passed it, he just popped me in the face, right? My jaw still pops this day. And pretty much from that day on, I had a healthy level of fear for high school. A healthy level of fear. Do you. Do you think there's anything for you? I know for me, like, I played for coach K. I played for a great high school coach. I played for Boo Williams and Aau. We talked about our coaching and how.

Important that was to us last time.

Do you think for you there was anything transferable from what you learned in high school to what you had to do in the NBA, especially early on, from a coach's perspective on the court, being. Being a player on the court.

No, totally different game. It was a totally different game. But the nuance and the fundamentals and the things that was being taught to me as an 18 year old, I kind of had already knew a lot of that shit. I mean, it's weird to kind of say. Cause you feel like when you get to the NBA, you're gonna learn so much more, which I eventually did, you know? And I think that just came with, like, we always talk about, you know, experience. The best teacher in life is experience, you know? But when I. When I got to the NBA, the biggest adjustment I had was literally just going from like, oh, shit, I don't have to go to class every day, you know? You know, I'm going from 27 game season to now 82. So, like, oh, shit. Like, after 27 games in the NBA, you know, around about 32 games, I'm like, I'm exhausted, you know? So now, like, what can I do to get the. Get the energy back going? But as far as when I stepped out on the floor, there wasn't too much of an adjustment. I felt like I was physical enough.

I felt like I had the size, I had the speed, obviously. I had the athleticism. Obviously, you know, you have the, you know, some of the vet tricks and things of that nature, how to get away with certain things that I had to kind of learn in whatever the case may be, but. And then I was thrown around with many positions in my rookie year, too. Like, at one point, I was a two guard. At one point, you know, my first game of Sacramento, I was coming off floppies.

Oh, we'll get to that in a bit.

Yeah, you know, we'll get to that in a bit. Yeah. And we do make a change or whatever. Now I'm the point guard. It's like, you know, which is one natural position for me, but also not a natural position. Like, I love to pass the ball. I love to bring the ball up, but I've never really started at the point guard position, so it's still very different. Different. But I was able to just kind of seamlessly, kind of just move right on in.

Figure it out on the fly a little bit.

Yeah, figure it out on the fly.

With the tournament going on right now, have you. I rewatched episode one and I. You talking about not going up to Ohio state for parties. Down to Ohio State for parties. I was like, all right. I wonder if he ever thought to himself this time of year, man. I wonder what it's like to play in March Madness.

Absolutely.

You have.

Yeah. 21 years later, you're still thinking about it every year. Yeah. This is the only time, though.

I was thinking about all the stuff you've experienced in basketball, but you haven't experienced that.

This is the only time. March Madness right now is the only time I think about playing college basketball for 21 straight years. I don't watch much college basketball this year. I watched a ton of it, obviously cause Bronnie's in college, you know. So I was there watching the game. But it's just, it doesn't translate for me. It frustrates me. My high blood pressure picks up. I'm a black man at high blood pressure. Just not good for us. So I try to stay away from it. But I love basketball, so I find myself watching it anyways. But I literally, before we came in here, like you said, Duquesne won their game. Big shout out to the Dukes coach. Coach D. Our best friend Drew Joyce. Right after the game, I was watching Illinois versus Morehead state scouting because that's what they play next.

And you're going to give him notes?

Already did. Already sent notes already. I got to watch like a quarter, third or three fourths of the game before we started and I've already sent notes. I'm a junkie, man.

Yeah, I'm well aware of that. Well aware. I want to talk about spacing today. Do you mentioned coming off floppy, that Sacramento game, your very first game. Do you specifically remember your first two baskets of your career?

I remember my first one. Okay. My first basket was coming off a floppy action and I faded to the corner by our bench and received a ball over the top and hit a. Hit a 1718 foot.

First of all, it's hilarious that you were running floppy.

That's hilarious.

On that one. You came off and took the one dribble baseline and Cee booze after he set the screen kind of backed up into the pocket around the elbow. There was like space, a little space. On the second one. You came off the other side and curled and Ricky Davis hit you at the elbow. And I had this screenshot on my phone and it's z on the left block, c booze on the right block. Darius miles spotting up from about 17ft at the right wing. Ish but not really space.

Not really space.

And then Ricky Davis is just standing there at the top of the key. It's like literally eight or nine people. Eight people all just right there.

Right there.

And then you drove back and hit a little fall away going left.

Yeah.

When did you start to feel like the spacing was changing in the NBA?

That's a good question. I'm trying to think. I think the spacing started to change in the NBA. I think Stan Van Gundy had a lot to do with it, now that I think about it. And I'm thinking. Cause I was in the east and obviously, you know, they had a lot of spacing, you know, in Sacramento in the early two thousands, but it wasn't a lot of spacing. Maybe they just had some shooting. Obviously, Mike Bibb could shoot the ball, you know. You know, Peja was shooting the ball.

They ran corner splits.

Yeah, they run corner splits. They, you know. You know, Vladi, you know, could play the elbow, could play the corner, could hit, you know, the three at times, you know, see web from time to time with space a little bit, but he was more in the post, you know, Bobby Jackson will fly off, obviously, for shots, but, you know, I don't. I believe Stan with Dwight, you know, kind of in that. That 070809 kind of range, they started to change it a lot. You know, I hadn't seen that much space. Cause I played against the Detroit Pistons, and obviously you have, you know, you have rip on his floppy down action, you know, flying off the floppy down or the two chests or whatever the case may be. But with Stan, I think he saw what he had in Dwight and he started to build that team around him to like, I want nothing but space, you know, and we saw that. We saw it when Rashard Lewis got on that team. We saw it when he do. Terkalu got there, you know, and then added Jamir, you know, and added just a bunch of space.

You as well. You as well, like, took a while. Yeah, you know, it took a while to use your superpowers. I tell you that. It took a while for you to use your superpowers or them to use your superpower superpowers for the better of the team. But, you know, even where Ray Allen was on Boston in zero eight, it still wasn't a lot of space out there. KG was posting up.

Ronda was not a shooter.

Ronda was not a shooter. Tony Allen wasn't a shooter.

PP was playing two bigs.

Yeah, PP was a three level scorer, but they were playing two bigs a lot. You know, if it was kg and perk or kg and big baby, or whatever the case may be, you know, Detroit was still playing two bigs even when being with the Chicago, you know, they brought in, um, they brought in Chris Weber, um, you know, so they were playing two bigs as well. You know, I feel like, you know, Miami was still playing two bigs. They was playing Shaq when he was there along with Udonis and Zoe. When Zoe came back. I feel like Orlando, man. Orlando kind of was the, the first. I want to say the first because they're obviously.

Yeah, I think the precursor was definitely, in my opinion, the Suns.

Right.

The Suns were the first with Antoni, with Dantoni, Nash, Marion at the four, Amari at the five. Space.

Marion wasn't, he wasn't a spacer either, but he, but he was so athletic, speed that it created space. Yes.

You know, there's, there. We're gonna get to this.

Their pace.

They're gonna get to this. Yeah, but it's funny because with the, with the magic.

Yeah.

I'm not sure that that was the intention.

Now.

It ultimately may have played out that.

Right, right.

But Tony Bati hurt his shoulder guarding Dwight in preseason and we tried Turk at the four, in the preseason games and he refused. He's like, fuck this.

I'm not guardian. You know, I'm not going for she walls.

So Burchard is a good teammate and a true professional, unlike Turk. He's like, he's like, fuck it, I'll do it. Right. And that, and then all of a sudden it created an advantage and we ended up playing you guys in zero nine Eastern Conference finals. And by the way, I played nine minutes, nine minutes that series, second quarter, second quarter of game two. But I got to watch some awesome basketball. And it's weird. I rewatched some of that series and it is so apparent that no matter what you did, no matter what y'all did, we just had an advantage.

Yeah. The whole season we geared our team up to play Boston. Everything was geared to play Boston, everything. We never practiced anything besides two bigs, a point guard and a small small forward and a shooting guard. And then fuck, you guys win. And it's like, we've geared up all, you know, we had big z and severe myself, Delonte and Mo Williams. I mean, you guys are out there with Dwight, Rashard, Heedu, Jamir, Pietrice. Pietrice.

Courtney Lee.

Courtney Lee. You guys are out there with like, what the league is to now. The league now is like long wings, shooters, and a guy that can screen, roll, lob. And then you add on even more with Dwight. Cause he could occasionally post up a.

Small, I think, too. You know what? Looking back on that team that I think was so important. Cause I talk about this all the time now. Jamir Nelson could shoot threes out of pick and roll. Yeah, it's an important thing.

It is a very important thing for many reasons.

First of all, it unlocks everyone's offensive game. If you can shoot threes off the dribble, it unlocks your game.

Right.

But also just for the offense. Now all of a sudden you're forced to make a decision in a Jamir Nelson, Dwight Howard, pick and roll. He do Turkulu. If you decide to go under him because you don't want him getting to his right hand, you have to make a decision. Now. He's going to shoot it.

He's going to shoot it.

So we would run that angle, pick and roll. We'd have a shooter in the left corner. Turk going to his right hand, Dwight Roland and two shooters.

And two shooters. Where's the help coming from? And you can't switch it. Cause Dwight's gonna bury you, hit you with 19 elbows. And he doesn't care about getting one or two fouls off the elbows, but he's gonna dunk you in the rim. This is like super duper, man. Dwight, at the time.

I rewatched game five the other day and I've never watched a series.

By the way.

You haven't. Very curious to get your thoughts and what you remember about that series specifically. Because this is what I remember. And I was like, I'm gonna go watch.

What was the series? 4242. Yeah, yeah. Four two. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I didn't talk to the media after game six. I was pissed. I was pissed. I took a shower and got shown on the bus.

I remember that now.

Yeah, I was pissed.

Game five, I was watching the fourth quarter, literally. Your offense, you didn't match up hunt for the first part of the fourth quarter. You had two bigs in the dunker spot. Either dunker spot. You had mo or Delonte at one point. It was Wally Zerbiak spotting up and you would post up Mikel Petrus at like 19ft and then try to go one on one. It was really interesting to watch that versus spread pick and roll with shooting and spacing. It was really. And by the way, how the fuck.

Is he functioning, by the way?

This is not. This is not like a knock on Mike Brown at all. I'm not saying that. It was just what we were doing was so different at the time.

Yeah.

And it wasn't like the next year, everybody's like, oh, we're gonna try to emulate what Orlando did.

Right.

2011. I'll never forget this game we played against the Minnesota Timberwolves in our new arena. And that's when we had Ryan Anderson and Richard, and we would get to our spread, pick and roll, and it didn't matter where Ryan or Richard was. They would tag Dwight with Kevin love.

The four man, no matter where he.

Was, no matter where he was. So if he's the high guy, he's.

Taking them all the way to the rim.

On the double side, they're tagging at the rim, and Ryan and Richard are sitting there teeing them up. It's bizarre.

It's super bizarre.

I'm not going to gas you up. I'm not going to gash you up. I'm going to say one thing, though, real quick. You average 38, eight and eight in that series with that offense and that.

Spacing with no space. With no space.

It was wild.

It is what to think back on. Like I said, I have not watched that series since it happened. And to think that out, damn near average 48 Nate in a series with no space is. And I obviously, if I caught a good heater, I can make a couple of threes in a row, whatever the case may.

But that wasn't.

That wasn't my thing. That was my thing. I lived in the paint, ran the post.

You didn't have your signature move then.

I didn't have my signature move there. I was not my. I was not a disciplined jump shooter at that point in time.

Interesting. What do you mean by that?

If I was, I would shoot fadeaways for no reason. I would be off balance for no reason. I would make shots more difficult for no reason. And I'd envy guys that can go straight up and down or could, like, shoot the same shot every time. And it was just discipline. I was so athletic that I could will myself. I. There's like, sometimes there's like old clips of me that I watch or come across my timeline on social. Yeah, hold on, bro.

It's okay.

I see the clip sometimes.

No, no, I don't.

Just go online and look up LeBron James highlights.

We all watch our own highlights on YouTube. LeBron, I'm telling you, you've never gone on YouTube.

Yes, I have. Of course I have. I say from time to time they come through. I. Of course I have. Especially. Oh, by the way, the number one reason you do that is when you hit, like, a little slump or whatever you like. Oh, yes. Where's my game?

Where's my game at?

Oh, YouTube is the perfect place to find your game.

March 2018 at Charlotte. 27 points. Type it in. Let me see my game. We've all done it.

Yeah, we've all been there. For sure. We've all done it.

When you guys got together in Miami.

Yeah.

The conversations with Chris about his role, but also the decision to sort of move him to the five, which, by the way, was not right away.

No, it wasn't like, was there pushback.

On that at the time?

Do you remember, like, those conversations? Cause I know UD was there. Joel Anthony was there.

Yeah. My first year, big Z was there. And Eric Dampier.

And Eric Dampier.

Yeah. I'm gonna tell you when it all changed, obviously, my first year there, played great basketball, got all the way to the finals. Losing the finals. I played like shit. SpO is the reason why we were a better team and our team was more assembled properly. That summer, he went to Oregon and hung out with Chip Kelly.

Oh, interesting.

When we lost to Dallas, he went to Oregon and hung out with Chip Kelly and learned to spread offense and tried to figure out if he could translate that to basketball. And don't know the super conversations that him and Chip had, but I know when he came back to us, he knew in order for us to reach our potential one, I had to be fucking ten times better than I was in that previous June finals. But Chris Bosh had to go to the five. And CB being who he is, there was no pushback. There was no pushback. He knew in order for us to reach our potential, that CB will have to go to the five. And we had to spread. We had to. He had to start working on his corner three faithfully every day after practice. Corner three every day at the practice. We're going to post you up. We'll get you. Your elbow catches. Offense gonna run through you at times. But in order to bring, you know, the Tyson Chandlers out of the paint, in order to bring the Roy Hibbers out of the paint, in order to bring Tim Duncan out of the paint at times, in order to bring Kevin Garnett out of the paint, you got to hit these corner threes.

You got to at least be a threat. And Spo knew it. He had that vision. He went and learned. He said the way I. He said, the way I coached in that finals versus Dallas, unacceptable. I told myself the way I played, unacceptable. And he came back with vengeance. And I was all. I was locked the fuck in from start to finish. But it was spoiled.

I got a question about the Boss Bosch spacing but because you just said that, was that the low point for you in your career?

Oh, for sure. 2011. The lowest. Yeah. Yeah, the lowest. Yeah, the lowest.

What is the Bosch spacing? What did that sort of unlock? I'm curious, like, what were the actions? What, what was the. The two man games?

Yeah.

What were the reads?

The cutting slot cut. The slot cut. The slot cuts. The slot cuts. It unlocked. The slot cuts. It unlocked exactly what myself and D wade thrive on. Dribble penetration. Slot cutting. Pick a roll happens, you tag, slot cutting. It unlocked all that. And we all know how great D Wade is on the baseline. It's hard to cut behind the defense when x five is standing there the whole time because, you know, the offensive five is there. You know, so, you know, you hit me on a pocket pass. Now, you know, I get the pocket pass from Chalmers or from Norris Cole, you know, and now Bosh is in a strong corner. Are you going to leave him or not? If you do, he gonna tag you. And if not, when I roll now, you got x three or x two tagging on me on the roll. And nine times out of ten, that that guy that's playing the elbow that's posed to x to the corner, he's xing out to the three point line and D wave slashing right behind him. It just. It unlocked so much for our offense, and it gave myself and D wade in transition.

We had this thing called the Mack truck lane. So from. Basically from the block to the block. So San Francisco, we stand on the free throw line.

Yeah.

Got one block on one side, one block on the other side.

I can picture a basketball court.

Yeah, we do it for the viewers. I'm not questioning JJ's expertise.

No, I know what you're saying.

First day of training camp, we had that whole thing taped off. The bigs were not allowed to run in between the Mack truck lane from the first day of training camp, all the way to game one. Prohibited. You're not allowed. You got. And if I'm bringing the ball up and the big is behind me, he can't cross the court. He has to run wide behind. This is all. This is all spo is like, he's that damn good.

Some Twitter sleuth will correct me on this, and I will accept it if I'm wrong. But in my mind, when I think of five out or delay, I think of the Miami Heat with Chris Bosh as maybe it wasn't the originator, but the first time, I'm like, oh, this is different, and this is happening. Was the Miami Heat with Chris bosh. Yeah, and it changed everything.

It changed everything. Changed the whole team. Changed the whole team. Then we added Ray, Shane added. Shane added Mike Miller. We added to spacing. And CB could pass. He could rebound and push. It wasn't many fives at that time. That was rebounding and pushing the break. You see it all the time now, right?

You see bam. Bam does it.

Bam does it all the time. Joker does it. Like CB was pushing the break. Okay. If he didn't have nothing early in trans. Boom. Right to a DHL second side. Swing. Swing. Like, he was a smart. He was just smart. But I mean, obviously when you move from one position where you're so dominant, you think of CB in Toronto, where he mainly played the four. Almost probably 95% of the time played before, on average, 25 and ten or twelve.

The ball exclusively went through him in the mid post.

Every single time on either block. Really?

Yeah, but it's remarkable that he changed that.

Yeah, he changed that.

The slot cut. Can you explain the timing, the play, how it works?

We actually.

Because it's. By the way, it is a. It's now part of, like every team's vernacular and. Yeah, every team runs it now. It becomes programmed into everybody's reads in pick and roll.

Yeah. And it's now is. It used to not be a live cut. I go back and watch college basketball and there's so many fluff cuts or cuts that don't do anything. It's like, why are you making a cut towards the basket and you're not even looking at the damn ball, you know? So the slot cut. I started to make the slot cut when Mike Brown took over for us in Cleveland. We actually used to have a play when we got Mo Williams. Mo Williams was one fast, quick motherfucker off pick and rolls. And another guy that could shoot the three off the pick and roll. We would run angle, Mo Williams would have the ball left slot. We would have a shooter in a strong corner going same side as him. And either Virgile or Z comes at the step up. You know what? Take that back. I'm sorry. No. Strong side shooter. Strong side shooter in the weak corner. Only Mo's job was to race the big, race to big, get around the big, get around to the baseline. And at the same time, as soon as I would see Mo race the big to the baseline, Anderson, Versailles or Z A, come set a whip screen for me.

Blind the guy that's guarding me. And the corner man couldn't leave because it was a corner shooter, and I was slot cut at the same time. It's easy clip. We could find that clip easy, and Mo would drop it to me and I would either dunk it home or finish it or whatever the case may be. We actually put that in one of our. That was one of our atos. And then when I got to Miami, I started to just see a lot of guys peaking. A lot of guys with Dwayne had a ball. Obviously, he attracted a lot of eyes. He's a driver. Whatever the case may be, instead of me standing out and shooting threes, which at times I wasn't always comfortable with shooting threes, I would see guys peeking, and as soon as I would see my guy turn his head, I will slot cut.

This is part of the reason it's really hard to guard, spread, pick and roll.

Yep.

And we'll put the clips up as well.

But.

If the x's here are the offensive player. Right.

Correct.

And you're running this angle. Pick and roll.

Correct.

And let's say the big is in a drop.

Okay.

And this is the guard.

This is the guard.

Right?

Yeah.

So if this guard turns the corner here.

Yep.

Right on the big. Damian Lillard does this better than anybody.

Especially on the left. Especially going left.

Especially going left. Right. This guy has to make some sort of decision.

Yep. He's coming to two nine.

This guy has to get into an exposition. And who the fuck is guarding this guy?

Nobody.

Nobody. Right.

Nobody. So that's the position I'm in a lot.

The slot cut.

The slot. Yeah.

The other one is this. Which Golden State? When I think of this cut, I think of Golden State, which is essentially same formation. Here's the defense.

Right.

All right, so you put two on the ball, on Steph Curry and Draymond.

Green, which is the worst thing you can do.

Right. Right. This guy's going to have to be the low man. So Draymond rolls, Steph hits him right here. This guy drops. What's going to happen right here, LeBron, as Draymond Green takes a dribble into the paint.

It's a lob.

It's a lob.

It's a lob every single time. And it's a lob every single time.

You literally can't put two on the ball.

You can't see. Everyone thinks that putting two on the ball takes Steph out of the play. The problem that you don't understand is that you're now unlocking Draymond's superpower offensively.

Yeah.

Draymond's superpower offensively is the four on three game. You put two on the ball. Now Draymond has his four on three. And I'm going to have Igadala in the past. Now, Wiggs and Kamonga, they're going to be in that opposite corner. And if you help up too early, there's going to be a lob. And that is demoralizing. And the number one thing, it's so much momentum. A half court lob, so much momentum.

When we used to. That's the worst court I've ever seen. But I'm going to do the same formation real quick, the same set. So, like, when we used to teach or learn how to guard, spread, pick and roll, right? We would. You would do this drill. I'm sure you did this drill. So, you know, here's the defense, right?

Yep.

There's the defense. And as this guy comes off, the low man pulls over. Here's the basket.

The low man pulls over. This guy drops, drops.

And the drill was always this. This guy, the ball handler would skip it, skip a corner, and you would literally get back. But nobody does that anymore. Yeah, they hit the short roll.

Yeah.

And the short rollers. Now, in today's NBA, like, if you're a big. Coming into the NBA right now, what's your player development program look like? It's literally playing out of the short roll.

Yeah. Playing out of the short role.

If you're Jared Allen, Jared Allen for the last five years, what is he doing?

Short roll.

Short roll?

Yeah. I mean. I mean, especially with Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell, they're going to attract so much. You have to be able to play out of the short role. And when you play out a short role, it's not for you to score. Yes, you have the ability to score, but you have to read the game. You have to read the game.

I think about Chris Bosh, and it makes me think of Chet Holmgren a little bit. You guys probably run different stuff, but in a way, what makes OKC so good is their ability to drive the basketball and then kick. And then drive the basketball and then kick. And they did this last year. This is how they played last year when they were 42 and 40. And then all of a sudden, Chet comes in and it unlocks everything the same way. I'm not comparing Chet to Chris Boshes.

Like, but to unlock the most, but how you get the most out of.

How you maximize the offense. You need Chet on that team for sure.

No question about it. He changes the dynamic of everything. You know, they have a one set that they run off of all free throws where Chet takes the ball out. They send two guys to the other end. Both of them sit in the corner, and Chet takes the ball out. And now Shea has got. He has it on the right wing or the left wing or whatever the case may be. And normally, the X five's job is to load to the ball and stop Shay from driving the 45, driving the slot. That's your job. Load. Get to the body. Load. Okay. See, now, because there's another guy back there.

They're fle.

At the same time that the big is trying to load on Shea. There's a guard that's flaring Chet to the opposite slot. Do you know how hard that is? They're flaring a seven footer to the opposite slot. Right? I mean, there's ways to guard it. I'm not going to say it right now because we may see him in the playoffs. I'm not going to give that coach their opportunity to prepare for it. But that's very difficult when you have a guy like Shea who's going to get to the line eight to twelve times a game, and or. Or J Dub, who's now turned into a fucking grazing. He's a star. He's a star.

He's a star.

I told him, too. I said, man, I said, boy, you out here killing? He's like, man, I had a hell of a summer. Cause he came to me and said, you know, my younger brother played against Bronnie last night. Cause his younger brother goes to Colorado. Cody. Yeah, Cody. And I was like, I said, that's crazy, man. Yeah. I said, man, hey, keep going, bro. You killing this shit. He was like, man, I had a hell of a something.

He's one of those guys. He's right now, not many holes in his game. He's pretty damn good at nearly everything. He's one of those guys, you know, he's 22 now, I believe. 23.

That's it.

It's like in four or five years, you're like, oh, no, no. That guy has no holes in his game.

Zero. Yeah, zero.

I want to, before we talk more spacing, I want to touch on one last thing with the Heat. And that is, I feel like in the NBA, the phrase super team or the term super team is a little bit of a misnomer because.

You can.

Have a big three, right. You still need four or five ancillary role. Players absolutely star in their role and then complement the stars.

No question about it.

And it doesn't work it doesn't work unless you have those guys and you've lived it multiple times.

I've lived it. I've lived it. I mean, obviously, my first year in Miami, yeah, we had a big three. And everyone said it's a super team. Super team this, super team that. But we had to build our team around all minimum guys, which was still okay. But we didn't fill out the complimented guys enough. Yeah, we had Rio, we had Udonis, you know, but we didn't. We didn't have enough as far as enough complimentary guys to actually make it all work. And we still made it to the finals. We still made it to the finals. And we still probably should have won the finals. But I still give credit. Listen, it is what it is. You win and you lose and we lost. Just know Dallas was fucking good and they hit a stride at the right time. Dirk was unbelievable. But my second year, we was able to grab some complimentary players and role players that really just. I'm talking about superstars in their roles. And it goes back to my first year in Cleveland. My first year in Cleveland. Yes. We got Kevin out of a trade. We lost in the finals. We wasn't really whole to unlock everything.

We wasn't whole enough to unlock everything. Then we was able to add Channy Fry, add Richard Jefferson to that second team, add those guys. And then the experience that we had from the year previously, you know, junior got better and shump, you know, and obviously we were healthier. You know, Kyrie goes down in the finals and, you know, busted kneecap and Kev obviously separated in year one. But you're absolutely right. The complimentary guys are ultimately the ones that will help you win the championship for sure.

Yes.

Classified as a real super team.

Right. So I think, you know, the goal of this show is to really just, like, talk about basketball. Right? And it's great. And I love it.

I love it.

And I could do it all day.

Yeah, me too.

You know, we both live online. Let's be honest. We live online. We're well aware of all the discourse. I have to participate in the discourse. And I said this.

I want to participate so much more.

I said this the other day. I was like, the discourse has a place, right? It provides a level of entertainment. And I get it. And I feel like sometimes I get annoyed at a couple keywords that get involved in discourse and we're not going to do this every episode. We're not going to. We're not going to do this. But I just. On this point, we're making about how a team works. There's the. The word important. Who's the more important player for the Boston Celtics? Who's the most important player for the Boston Celtics? I also get annoyed with the word pressure, right? Those are the two words that drive me fucking crazy. Pressure in particular, because if you've, like, been around, you know that most guys in the NBA put an insane amount.

Of pressure on themselves.

That's why we all have fucking anxiety.

We all put so much pressure on ourselves.

And the important word bugs me because the best player is always the most important player. It's very hard to win in the NBA if the player who has the most outsized impact isn't at his best. And no offense, 2011 is a great example of that.

I wasn't at my best.

You weren't at your best, and you lost.

If I played anything like I did in Eastern Conference finals, we win.

But you could have been at your best, and the role players could have been bad. So, like, for me, this is why I get annoyed. Cause I'm like, yeah, like, when I played on the Clippers, CP and Blake, they were the most important guys on our team. But DeAndre and I had a role. Jamal had a role. Matt Barnes had a role. Luke and Bob, mute the next two.

Years had a role.

Like, we all had an important role. And guess what? We put a lot of pressure on ourselves to actually play well and actually contribute to winning. And I feel like we live in this fucking two k world where we're, like, putting a roster together, and it's like, how can we put as many good players that don't even make sense together?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it drives me crazy. It's like, what's wrong with this team? Well, it's very simple. Basketball is a very organic thing, and the players and their skills have to compliment each other.

They have to compliment each other.

And Chris Bosh is a great example of that, the sacrifice to figure out how can my skills, and maybe I have to develop some of those. You mentioned the three point shooting. How can I figure out how to complement. It's going to make me better. It's going to make LeBron better, it's going to make D Wade better, and it's going to make our team better. And that's basketball.

And that's basketball. But that also comes from a, to go back to episode one, basketball IQ as well, him having the basketball IQ and the knowledge of saying, yeah, I could still be in Toronto averaging 25 and twelve, but I didn't come here for that shit. I came here to win championships, and we fucking lost in year one. What can I do to compliment my teammates? And what can I do to broaden my game out to where we don't lose in year two? Fucking talk about growth mindset. And everyone's talking about, you know, Chris Bosh. Was this before that. No one ever asked Chris Bosh. No one ever asked Chris Bosh about how he feels. Everyone just speaks for him. No one asks him how he feels. He knew he was making a sacrifice. We all knew we was making sacrifices, but we knew what the hell, what the fuck we all came together for, and that was to win championships. And that's what we did. No, for sure. Swing, swing, swing. Okay, drive the baseline. Okay. Boom. I'm tapping the box. I'm tapping the box. Reverse, defeat. Throw it back out. Okay, now I'm back.

Okay. When we drop drive from the slot. Slot man, you come. Drive from the slot. Guy drops down, he peels. Crack the big. Throw it back out. Now we back out.

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