All right. What are we, 247? 247. Yes.

We're all good, baby. How is it? How are we looking? Make my mind proud. Yeah. Yeah.

Welcome to episode 5 of Mind the Game with LeBron James and JJ Reddick, brought to you by Uninterrupted and 342 Productions. Today's episode is a very special episode. It's a two-part episode. Lebron and I lay the groundwork for the NBA playoffs, what makes them different what the experience is like as a player going through it. We are also joined by LeBron James' high school basketball coach, Keith Dambraut. Coach Dambraut coached for 40 years at the college and high school level. He was the head coach at Central Michigan, Akron, and of course, his latest stop, Duquesne, where they made the NCAA tournament and won their first round game. Coach Dan Brott is now retiring. Just a fascinating conversation we have with him. Again, this show is about basketball, and we are going to cover all aspects of basketball, including college, high school, youth development, FIBA, the WNBA. I know we spoke at length last week about the icons in women's college basketball. So awesome to get Coach Keith Dambraut's experience, expertise, and insight through his lens. And of course, through his lens, what it was like to coach a freshman and sophomore, LeBron James, in high school.

There are a few different concepts that we talk in episode 5, perhaps most importantly, is something called top locking. I want to be very clear on this because there tends to be some confusion, particularly from Jason Gallagher. It is not top blocking. It is top locking. Top locking is an off-the-ball defensive scheme where you force the shooter, the offensive player, coming off of a wide you get a wide pin down or at any off-ball screen, and you force him towards the basket, you get on his high side or his top side, and you force him back towards the basket or the baseline. All right, let's say the ball is right here, defender there. Let's say there is a shooter in the corner, and there is a big guy that's going to screen away for the shooter. As he comes down to screen, this big would drop to protect the basket, and a top lock is simply when the shooter's man gets all the way on the outside, forcing him back towards the basket. The protection, again, comes from this big, or whoever is guarding the screener who drops back. Again, top locking, not top blocking.

Oh, real quick on the top locking thing, which, again, this is a little bit of a cheat code for the Boston Celtics. Let's say that this is Chris Stops Porzingis, and let's say this is Jalen Brown. At any point in time, if Chris Stops Porzingis goes to set an away screen on Jalen Brown, and Jalen Brown's defender gets into a top lock, and Chris Stops Porzingis defender drops back to provide support, Jalen Brown can just go set a screen right here, and you've got Christops Porzingis popping into space for an open three. That's the counter if you have a shooting big. Also, similar to top locking, another concept that comes up in the conversation is icing or downing. Icing or downing a pick and roll is when the defender guarding a ball handler on a side pick and roll, gets again on the high side or the top side and forces it towards the baseline. The big man who is covering the screener drops back towards the baseline, towards the basket, to give support to to the defender on the ball handler. Again, the defender on the ball handler has completely opened up, gotten on the ball handler's top side, and is forcing the ball down towards the baseline.

We've got two offensive players here. The screener goes into a pick and roll over here on the side of the court. As that's happening, the big defender would shout ice or downs. Again, some teams have color concepts for this, but ice or down, he would then drop to provide support, and the guy guarding the ball would jump on the high side of the offensive player, of the ball handler, and force it down towards the baseline. That is an ice or down. Motion offense. Motion offense is simply a five-man offensive scheme that relies on screening action, ball movement, and body movement. Motion offense typically is very free flowing. There's not a set action that leads to another action. At least that's how I was taught it. Motion offense just means you're running pin downs, away screens, you're moving the ball side to side. Again, you're just in motion. You know how I was taught motion offense? Was three out, two in. So three offensive players outside the three-point line and two offensive players inside the three-point line. And again, motion offense could be any one of these options. You pass to the wing and you go screen away and replace.

As that's happening, maybe you get a cross screen here and you replace. Let's say none of that works. Ball was over here on the right side. Ball goes back to the top of the key. Again, motion offense, let's say you can run a pin down here, run a pin down here. That's just motion offense. Is ball, body movement, pin downs, away screens, cross screens, motion offense. Flex offense is another offense we talk about. Flex offense, very simply, is a half-court offensive scheme that relies on a baseline screen and then a pin down. And that is a continuous offense. A lot of high school teams run it, college teams still run it. Remember Boston College when we played them and I was at Duke, Coach Al Skinner That is literally all they ran offensively was the flex offense. Gary Williams in Maryland also ran the flex offense a ton. This is just a basic flex offense. So you'll have five offensive players, and a lot of times, a ball handler will enter it this way.

He would pass to one of the men up top and make some cut off the other high guy.

Once that happens, we are in a flex alignment. All it is is a baseline screen looking for a layup into a pin down. Again, once you pin down, you go back out to the corner Again, this can be continuous. Baseline cut, pin down. Some teams that still run this, once this first pin down happens, a lot of times this is a big, this is a guard, he would then just come back and set a high pick and and you play out of that. You can run flex to get into other actions, or you can make flex continuous. As always, thank you for listening and watching the Mind the Game podcast with LeBron James and JJ Redik. If you haven't already, please hit that subscribe button. Go follow us on whatever audio platform you listen to us on. Thank you for all of the support. Thank you for all the feedback. Thank you for all the discussion points. My new favorite thing, my new favorite thing from Mind the Game podcast is is when I'm watching a game and I happen to be on my Twitter account, and one of you guys points out a slot cut.

One of you guys points out one of the actions we talk about on the podcast. Pretty awesome for us. So appreciate you all. And this is episode 5 of Mind the Game.

End game, game 2, one of your most iconic shots.

What game?

Game 2, 2009 conference finals.

Oh, yeah. Over to Orlando.

I have a question about that play because that is an example of an off-ball movement, catch-and-shoot three. If I remember correctly, Mo was taking it out. Delante set a flare screen for El Gauskis. Right here. I think it was Pavlovitch just ran to the ball. You were over here on this elbow. You actually never got a screen on that play.

No, because I was supposed The play was for it to fake up and go back door for the lob, and turk played it perfectly. I faked up and I tried to go back for the lob, and I said, It's not open. It's not open. So I just came to the ball.

And Tuck fucked that up?

Yeah.

My only issue on that play.

I didn't even see Richard. He had a hell of a contest. Yes. He was guard in the ball.

He was guard in Mo, yeah.Yeah.

He was guard in the ball. I didn't see until after the fact. I never saw him. I never saw them. But you only saw Tuck. I only saw turk.

Do you remember your first playoff game?

My first playoff game, I do.

What do you remember about it?

I was nervous as fuck. That's what I remember. This was third year? This was third year. Third year. Yeah. I don't know. We can look it up and figure out when was the last time the Cavs were in the postseason. But that was just like, my first year, okay, I was establishing myself in my first year. Second year, we missed the playoff by maybe one or two games. And it's like, okay, I'm here to play ball, but I want to make the next step. I got to get this to the postseason. In my third year, we finally made the postseason, and our first game was against Washington at home. I was nervous as hell. My stomach was hurting all goddamn long, all day, literally until the ball jumped.

Why do you think... What have you reflected on that? Why do you think you were more nervous for that game than any other game?

Well, it was two games. My first ever game in Sacramento, and I didn't want to fucking lay an egg.

I think obviously everybody was watching. This is not a narrative podcast. I just want to be clear on this. But I think what you're admitting here is that you felt the burden. You felt the pressure. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, for What's the pressure? Who's under more pressure?

Who was it? What's the pressure? What is the pressure? I didn't want to lay an egg, man. I was, what, 20 years old. Got the team to the postseason. I didn't want to go out there and shit the bed. I was maybe 21, maybe. But I didn't want to shit the bed. First playoff game, look out there, there's Gilbert Arenas and Antoine Jamieson and Karon Butler and those guys. They were playing great ball that year. We're inexperienced as hell. I didn't want to lay an egg. What did you 32, 11, 11. I laid an egg all right.Oh, man.And they locked a rope.

Yeah. Don't quote me on this. I think it was like 35, 7, and 6 or 35, 7, or something.For.

The whole series?For.

The whole series.Yeah.Oh.

Shit.not bad.Yeah, not bad.Not bad for the first one.

You've played in a ton of playoff games, obviously. You've won championships. There's a lot that's different about the playoffs in the regular season. What is it? What is different about the playoffs?

In general or for me?

In general. In general. We'll get to you, specifically.

In general, as you know, as you've played them, a lot of postseason games, too. One possession can lose you the series. Compared to the regular season, you can get away with some slippage. You can get away, it's four or five nights, fucking tired. It's a cold-ass Tuesday night in Milwaukee. You're like, Holy shit. But not this Milwaukee team. I mean, obviously, you get up for those guys. But in the postseason, one bad stretch. It could be a fucking 6-0 run. It could be It could be turnover here. It could be, You didn't top-lock JJ when we told you we top-locking him all series, and now he didn't see him one go in. There's times like, Where you know you could win a playoff game, and because the way you finish the game, you already lost the second one. You didn't let that fucking guy or that person get into a rhythm in the fourth quarter because you decided you didn't want to lock in for eight to nine more minutes. And yes, we won the game, but now we may lose the war.

Yeah. The mental side of the playoffs, by the way,Thank you. Particularly against a really good opponent. I think it was in episode one, you said, The further you go in the playoffs to win, you have to be a high IQ team. It's obviously emotionally draining because of the... There is pressure. It's different. You feel more with each win and loss. You get to two losses in a series. You get to three losses in a series, an elimination game. You're down three, two. You've got to go on the road to San Antonio. They won the Championship last year. You've got to muster up enough to beat them to get back home. That emotional toll is a lot. The physical toll, of course, playing. To me, the mental side of it, I think that is a huge separator because oftentimes mental mistakes within a game can lead to a series loss.For sure.I think about one I made. I was in Orlando. We were playing in the conference finals against Boston, and I had played a good game. There was a timeout. Let's say there was 29 seconds. There was a five or six second difference between shot clock and game clock.

And go to the timeout. I know we have a timeout. I know we have a timeout. We get to stop. I get the rebound, You dribble. No. First, I looked at Stan. I'm not saying it was his fault. I knew there was a timeout. I knew I should have called a timeout. I looked at him and he didn't do anything. Then I just instinctively put the ball on the floor, and then he called a timeout.Yeah.

And now you can't advance the ball.So.

Now we got three seconds, and we got to take it out three-quarter court opposite foul line, and we didn't get a good shot off. Now, we were down. I don't know that we win anyways, but that's an example of a mental mistake. I'll give you another one. This one has bothered me for four years. I'm not throwing this guy under the bus because I think his intention was right. 2020 play-offs, conference finals, you guys are up 1-0 on Denver, and you're down at the end of the game. You've got the ball underneath the basket. Mason Plumly checks in the game to guard Anthony Davis. You You were on the left elbow. Anthony Davis is on the right elbow. Danny Green makes some cut or whatever, and Anthony Davis runs to the left wing. You never set a pick. In fact, your back was turned to Anthony Davis and Mason Plumly. Correct.

Because I was just looking at Doe like, Give me the ball.

I know. Mason Plumly point switched. He point switched. Anthony Davis hit the game winning three. Now you're down 2-0. That stuff, the little tiny plays. It's weird because in the playoffs, I would say the little plays get amplified more. Does that make sense? Yeah. Versus a regular season, you go through 82 games. It doesn't feel the same way.

Yeah. That's why my body language is so bad throughout the regular season because I'm trying to gear them up for the postseason because they don't understand. Some guys don't understand. It's one play. Like you're saying, one play can be the difference between your ass going home and going to Cabo or Cancun or wherever the hell you're going, or going to Disneyland or Disney World with the trophy in your hand.

Do you think the game within the game of coaches is different?

Meaning?

Bob Myers maybe didn't originate this, but I know that he said it at some point. There are 82 game players, and then there are 16 game players, right? Do you think that in some ways there are good regular-season coaches versus good playoff coaches? How much does coaching matter in the NBA in the playoffs?

That matters a lot. Preparation. How much prep are you getting going into a series to win? You get out there and you're ready for everything that's going to be thrown at you. Now, obviously, Everybody makes adjustments, and then you got the great players that don't matter what type of fucking game plan you got on them. They're going to exploit it no matter what. But as much as you can be prepared going out for a series, and you know I change this. That game one is like the filler game. You almost tell your players, just go out and just fucking play. Just go out and play game one. Don't think too much because if you start thinking too much, now you can't even just be a player no more because now you're just trying to think the game. But me personally, I want overload.

You want overload?

I want overload. I want all the information, everything, everybody, every individual, every pros and cons. I don't do that throughout the '82 game regular season. I don't have the time to do that. I don't have the time.

The league has changed a lot with practice time, shoot-around time, amount of time you spend in the film room. It just has. Yeah, it has. I was fortunate. I would say fortunate. Five of my first six years, I played for Stan. I also played for him my last year in New Orleans. When you talk about the preparation, it was interesting to me that he prepared for a regular season game the same way he prepared for a postseason game. We're shoot around for an hour and a half. We got knee pads on. We're going live. I remember at the end of shoot-arounds, he'd be like, All right, these guys haven't run this play in five games. This is an ATO, but they haven't run it in five games. I want to be prepared for it. Let's go through it. Are You guys didn't do it right. Let's go through it again.

That's the Rouse tree.

100%.

That's the Rouse tree. Spoh was the same way.

But my point is, when we got to the playoffs, it didn't feel any different when we were prepping for a payoff.

Yeah, for sure. That's just, Spoh was the same way. That's the Riles tree. You come from that Pat Raleigh tree. That's just you prepare every day like it's your last, for sure.

You mentioned the word exploitation again. How much mental energy in a playoff series, playoff game, are you spending on exploitation? How to exploit the other team? You personally.

48 minutes. If we need 53 or 58, the whole game. Because I'm trying to generate easy buckets. Easy buckets, and I want to get my guys in a rhythm. How can we exploit the matchups and the players that's on the floor. Sometimes I get a little disrespectful to it as well. Certain guys come on the floor, I'll say it right on the free throw line while we shooting a free throw, they're shooting a free throw. Yo, we're putting him into action. Thumb down him. I want him to know that we're going at him in the I'm glad I never played against you in the postseason.

Well, I guess I did.9 minutes in game 2.9.

Minutes in game 2 in a last minute. 2009.

I think the other thing for me in playing and in watching is, can you create good offense down the stretch? That's true, of course, in any basketball game. I think it's harder and harder the further you go in the Yeah, it is.

Obviously, the IQ, which I always come to, the IQ from the coaches to the players, heighten and get better as you go on and on and on and on. And once the players get better, too, as well, I feel like being able to execute. Certain guys are able to execute better than others and teams, or whatever the case may be, because nothing Nothing bothers them in the pressure moments. Sometimes the lights are too bright for certain individuals.

I would say this, though. Here's the thing. It's a fair point. I'm not disagreeing. Not to scream. For my career, I think I shot 41% in the regular season from three. For my career in the play, I think I shot over 37%.

But that's not because of the pressure.

No, no, no. But hold on. Oftentimes, our opinion on things are shaped by our own experience. Is that fair?

That's fair.

You and I have had different experiences as basketball players. Let me hear your experience. Later on in my career, pretty much once I got to LA and was a starter and third or fourth option on offense, you get to the playoffs, they treat you like a first option.

Yeah, for sure.

Do you know what I mean by that? They've come up with a very specific game plan. The same team for game one, game two, game three, through game seven. They've come up with a specific game plan for you. Utah Jazz, 2017. We are going to top lock him as soon as he crosses half-court. Dr. Rivers said to me after game one, he said, This is not your series. I need you to stand in the corner. A terrible series. It's the worst series in my life. In my playing career when I was actually a player, not a bench guy, but it was the worst series in my career. But he was like, You got to go stand in the corner. They're literally… We're playing a four-on-four without you. I'm like, All right. The closeouts. If I do create separation or if you do make a mistake in the kick, the closeouts are different in the playoffs. Yes. My catch and shoot time to get a clean release is different. I'm not making excuses.I'm just telling youIt is the truth.what I experienced.

Do you think because of that…

By the 37% is not horrible.

No, hell no, it's not horrible. It's not good.

It's not good for me.I.

Mean, for you, it's terrible.It's terrible.It's terrible.It's terrible.It's terrible.It's terrible.It's terrible.I mean, for you. It's terrible. It's terrible. It's terrible.For the average guy, they were fucking…I'm embarrassed. They might get a max contract over there. But for you, you should… That's why I believe certain guys wants the postseason start because they've been guarded a certain way for September to mid-April, a certain way. You have certain games that gets circled on calendar that certain coaches get up for, certain players get up for. But at the end of the day, you've been guarded a certain way. And then in the postseason, like you said, the closeouts are different. The preparation is different. They're not allowing you to do what you do best, because at the end of the day, if certain guys get off on a team, you're definitely going to lose. If I'm playing the Clippers, you got to deal with Blake and his points in the paint and his rolls and his pocket passes from CP. You got to deal with CP. You got to deal with Jamal coming off the bench and doing what he does off the bench. If we allow JJ to get five or six threes, the series is over.

If you're getting five or... Fuck making five or six threes. If JJ is shooting five or six threes, we're going to lose.

The Spur series in '15. I remember, dude, we come out game one. We're in LA. We've got the three seed, they got the six seed, even though we had the same amount of wins. Kawhi is garnering me.

I'm like, What did I do to deserve this?

Why are you garnering me? I don't remember. Maybe the first four or five games of the season, he started on me. Danny started on CP. Then they switched that in game 6. I know game 7, Danny was on me. At the end of the series, we win. I didn't have a great series, but I had big moments in the series. At the end of the series, Chip England came up to me. He was like, Man, our entire thing was like, We can't allow you to get off. See, I wasn't even a part of it.We threw the kitchen sink to you.I.

Wasn't even part of it. I've seen pop in the posties. I played against him multiple times in finals appearances. There was one time where the He caught a timeout with 11 minutes and 52 seconds left in the first quarter because a guy on our team got off a three. I don't even know if they made the damn three, but he called a time out right away. Got on Danny Green. What the fuck? Danny Green got on his ass, took him out, brought him back in. But obviously, they had something in place, and then they execute. Yeah.

To Two last things, points I want to make on the playoff. Or one last point, and then I want to actually get your perspective on something. I think what's different about the playoffs. To your point about still winning a game, but maybe an adjustment is made late in the game. You say, We won the game, but they may have figured something out. I think what's different is if you make that adjustment with six minutes to go in the third quarter and you come back, still lose the game, the next night, you might be playing Memphis. The next night, you might be playing Oklahoma City. The next night, you might be playing Portland. You might have to wait two months. In the playoffs, you make an adjustment. You feel like you can exploit something, it's the same damn team the next night or the day later.

The same damn team, the same personnel. Yeah. You figured it out.

That's where you see Dallas in 11. You remember JJ Bourreya against the Lakers? Mm-hmm. It's like, Oh, JJ and Dirk in pick and roll, they can't stop that. We're just going to exploit that over and over. What's your perspective on luck in the playoffs?

Need it.

Give me an example.

The biggest example of luck in the postseason?

In your experience.

In my experience. Trying to think of my Championship runs. I mean, I was on the team. That's the luck, right? I can't think off the top of my head. But no, seriously, you could be a great team, but you need a little luck. You need the ball to bounce your way sometimes. You need a certain player on the opposing team getting in foul trouble. I don't know. I mean, off the top of my head, I started to think of, unfortunately, what happened with Kawhi, with the Zaza Pachua thing. The Spurs was-They were good. They were fucking good. And they were handling the shit out of Golden State up into that point. I think they were maybe up... I don't know off the top of my head. We can always look it up, obviously. They were up 17, and they were very fucking good. You get Kawhi go down with the ankle, and it's like, Oh, shit, the whole thing changes. I don't know off the top of my head as far as my experience, but luck, you want to say it's all the way you need. Yes, you need it. You need some luck, for sure.

You definitely do.

I think it goes back to where we started this with the one play, where a lucky bounce, an unlucky bounce, a call, a guy reacting to something, 2016. Yeah. An injury, right? A play, a moment.A.

Moment, yeah, for sure.It's.

Not I think luck maybe is the wrong word. But it's like an inflection point almost of someone gets hurt.

That can change the trajectory of what's to come. I mean, you look at, what is it, the '01? Lakers-kings? I think that was game five or six, maybe. They get the tip out to Big Shot Bob.

I think Kobe missed a floater over Doug Christie, I think.

Then Shaq gets the tip out. Yeah, exactly. He's driving. Vlade tipped it out.

Exactly, tipped it out.Right to Big... Yeah, right to Robert Horty.

If you clean glass on that, that's the game. How many times a ball gets batted right into one of the biggest clutch players in NBA history at the top of the key, and he just at the end of the game, bang, bang. That's some luck.

There's some luck to that.

That's some luck to Complete transparency.

We actually got up and sat back down because we had to say this. Game 6.

I don't know how I forgot.

Ray Allen's 3. The sequence of events here that led up to that.

The first thing that comes to mind is that pop had took Timmy D out. I think because they were probably looking to switch everything because we needed threes. We needed three, so everything was going to be on the perimeter. I had literally just made one three before that. We ran one of our plays that we've been practicing all year where I would come and set the pick. We just grew up on a whiteboard. I would flare over the top and then come back. I missed that one. Who knows if Timmy D is on the floor, does he clean glass? He's cleaned glass a lot in his career. But Bosh is able to get the rebound over Manu. Manu falls down a little bit. He's on the back, he cleans glass, and then Ray backpedals, doesn't even look at the line. What if he steps on the line backpedaling? What if he steps on the baseline? What if his toe is on the line? What if his toe is on the line? There's a lot of preparation because I watch Ray do that every day like that, but I believe there's some look to that, too.

The thing I always think about that play, and this is going to sound weird and it's going to make me look bad. It will, but I will take it. Monu, was such a fucking psychotic competitor. I think about him going for that rebound. If I was in that situation and saw the ball bounce, and this is not revisionist history, I'm just being honest with you, and I'm guarding Ray Allen. I'm staying at home. But Monu is Monu.

He wants that rebound to close the game.

He wanted to tip it out. He wanted to close the game out, win the championship. I'm not knocking what he did.

No, for sure.

Had he not fallen, it wouldn't even have mattered. But he's such a competitor. He went for it and he fell. He fell and left. That was all that Ray needed.

That's all he needed. Wow. Yeah. Wow, wow, wow.

I'm soft.

Thanks, Manu.

Did I get to sit behind the wine?

No, we're going to move it. We're going to move it over here.

That's a big sacrifice for Ray. Gentlemen. Do you want to handle this?

I've never met this guy in my life. I don't even... First guest on our show. First guest. I don't even know... No, this is My guy, my coach, Keith damn bright man. My high school coach really taught me a lot about how to prep for the game, how to play the game. Shit, I wouldn't I'm going to be here in this seat right now, where I am in my career without him. That's for damn sure. That's for damn sure. He's going to say the same thing about vice versa. No. But he literally taught me how to take the game serious. Seriously, every day I practice, how to prep, how to prepare. Me and Maverick always talk about our games were so easy because we practiced so fucking hard. He was like, This is going to be the hardest thing you all do on this practice, when we get in the games, it's going to be easy. And as a player, you don't really believe that shit. When you're 14, 15 years old, you're like, I'm fucking dying out here, man. What are you talking about? The game is going to be easier. The competition, these guys, all these.

And he was absolutely right. So I learned how to What I learned from him was how to really prepare for the games before the games ever, ever took place.

What was LeBron like when you coached him? You had him freshman and sophomore year?

I had him as freshman, sophomore. I met him, I think, when he about 13 and a half, maybe. He was one of the easiest guys I've ever coached. I was a college coach prior to coaching him. Once I saw him, I called some of my friends and I said, I got a guy that I think is one of the best I've seen. They all laughed at me and they say, Oh, you sound like a high school coach now. You know how the high school coach always hipes guys up sometimes. But just easy guy, great teammate, cared about playing as a team, loved his played hard. But the biggest thing that jumps out at you is just his innate ability and his ability to learn.

Interesting. You used the word innate in the first episode. I thought you were full of shit. Glad somebody co-signed it.

When you teach basketball, you just retired.

Congratulations. Congrats. Absolutely. Congrats on a hell of a career. You got a win in the tourney. Yes, sir. When you teach basketball, Is there a difference in approach between teaching high school kids or college kids?

That's a great question. I had always been a college coach. When I had that group, I treated them like college players. They actually had the brains of above that. Then once I knew LeBron was going to be a pro because I had had three NBA guys before him, then I started to treat him like he had to guard Kobe in four years. That's really how I treated him. I treated him like a pro.

That's interesting. Did you feel that? Did you not know any different?

No, I didn't know no difference. I'm just going out there and just like, I'm going to just bust my ass. This is a guy, he's the head coach, so whatever he says, let's do it. We all came together. Me and my high school boys, we all came to Saint V for a reason, and we wanted to win. We wanted to win a state championship. We wanted to win. Maverick was doing recruiting before he was supposed to be doing it. He recruited me to Saint V. But yeah, I just wanted to win. So there was times when you were pissed off at him because you're not used to it. You're not used to this type of hard work. It's something different. I remember I was telling you in episode one how different it is going just from grade school to middle school, the intimidation factor of even just walking down the hallways. And then going from middle school to high school, it's even more intimidating. Now, you're being around kids with beards and people are driving to school. I'm a freshman in high school. I'm not driving, I'm riding my bike, or one of the coaches picked me up, whatever the case may be.

So it was super duper different in a sense of anything else I had been up to that point by playing a game of basketball.

How long did you coach, total, between high school and college?

I had a little sabbatical, so let me think about that. I was seven years at Duquesne, 13 at as a head coach, then three other years as an assistant, so close to 35 years.

How do you coach a player that can't remember after timeout plays? Coming out of a timeout. Coming out of a timeout, you draw up a play, and a player habitually forgets what he's supposed to do. As a coach, how do you coach that player?

That's funny because we were just talking about that last night.

I may have got some intel on that.

Really, what you do is you have an assistant coach that is assigned to that guy. After you draw up the play, he draws it, redraws it up and then tells him again about it because there's nothing more frustrating as a coach and even as a player than somebody butchering up plays when you draw it up for them.

Lebron knows this. I coach my son's travel team. It's a fourth grade travel team, 9 and 10-year-olds. There's not a ton of opportunities to call time out. I'll drop the first play. If we have the ball at halftime, I'll drop it off. I think each team is allowed three timeouts. If there's opportunities, I'll draw it up. We have the ball because a lot of times, if we score in another team, they call a time Chaos is going to ensue. You have to change of possession. But it's interesting because I have to deal with that. The one thing I've learned this season, because it's my second year doing it, is I tell the kids, not every kid, but I tell the kids that need to hear this, just watch what you're supposed to do. There's a lot of stuff happening. Just watch what you're supposed to do. That's a good point.

It's really good.

I think the hardest thing The hardest thing, and this is where I'm curious for both of you, coaching it and having coaches do this, ATOs are such a very specific thing. A big part of running an ATO correctly is timing. So practicing ATOs, did you practice your ATOs? Did you have a list of certain plays that were ATOs that were outside of your normal sets or concepts? And have you had coaches that actually practiced ATOs?

I know a lot of coaches do that, but I'm a coach that plays off the feel of the game. So I'll usually run one of the sets that I think is going to go at that particular time. That way you're not as limited as to what you can run at a certain time. But obviously, we've practiced all of those. We probably spent more time this year, for instance, just on five on, just making sure our guys knew every little aspect of it. You make a great point. You can run a great set, but if you don't execute the screen or the cut or understand how to bump a screen or go tight off of a screen, none of it really matters.

Yeah, for sure. I think what you were saying, Jay, I think there's a practicing some ATOs is very beneficial to certain teams. But also as a player, sometimes when a coach comes to the timeout and draw something that you haven't seen before, you get like, Oh, shit. I ain't seen this one before. I'm going to execute this one to a T because if it works now, we might be able to bring this back again. As a player, you feel good about that. Like, Oh, I didn't know you had that one in your bag, coach. So you have certain things that... You have a fourth-quarter package. You have a ATO. You have Sobs, Bobs that you don't You don't want to run throughout the course of the game. Because if it's a closed game, you want to try to catch the defense, sleep in or catch them off guard or whatever the case may be. And the conversation that we're having throughout the course of a game, you want to have things that's in place that you've practiced just so guys have some type of mental knowledge of, Okay, this is what we worked on yesterday.

This is what we worked on in the shoot around. But it doesn't always happen like that because coaches and players, we want to do shit You want to make in-game adjustments that maybe you didn't have an opportunity to prepare for that earlier that morning, or maybe it is a back-to-back and you didn't really have shoot around. You didn't have an opportunity to really put in all the stuff that you may have wanted to put in if you had a practice day. I think it's all situational.

The reason I bring up the timing thing is because there are certain parts of after-timeout plays when you cut, when you set the screen. Absolutely. A big part of ATOs is misdirection. Yeah, for sure. When that misdirection is occurring, that's important. Yeah, for sure. The other reason I ask is because Doc was great with this, and Brett Brown was great with this, is end of game need place. We had need two plays. Need two, need three. Need three plays, and we would have a package. By the way, that package would change throughout the season. If we ran a play a couple of times in a need three situation.It.

Didn't work or whatever.Yeah.

Or even if it did, we'd have to disguise it, and then we'd have to practice that.

You mentioned something really good, I think. Obviously, we can't advance the ball in college. I do think some of your sideouts can be plays that you run from a normal set so that guys can actually do the same thing. Then the ability to save plays for late in the game, too. I always try to save three or four that I like to run late that I haven't run the whole game Or like you said, maybe put them in a closet for two or three weeks and then bring them back two or three weeks later. I like to do that as well.

Based on the guys that you have coached throughout your career, what are the skills that translate and transfer from high school to college, college to the NBA?

Well, I think there's a lot of guys that have talent, but there's a lot of guys that don't have a good enough brain to play in the NBA. You have to understand the game. You have to understand what it takes to make the league. For instance, we had the Thomas twins who LeBron knows that played for us at Eastern Michigan. One of nine twins that played in the NBA, free agent. Guys, Charles never averaged more than 11 points a game in college, but he had a skill set good enough to be able to play defense, be able to handle the ball enough, and shoot the three ball enough to play in the league. I think a lot of guys think they have to score to play in the league, but you have to be able to guard to play in the league. You have to be able to play a role. You have to be a good role player because there's not many guys like LeBron. Most of the guys in the NBA, and you guys know way more than me, are role players. So you have to be really good at something.

Thanks.

I think you are a little more of a role player.

Absolutely. You got a clip that I sent you the other day. Yeah, exactly.

I actually, I would argue everybody's a role player. That's true. His role is just to be the guy. Luca's role is to be the guy. That's his role. There's a difference between definition and connotation. The connotation of a role player. Most 19 and 20-year-olds don't want to hear that. I'm going to be a role player in the league? That, to me, is a struggle. It's interesting you bring up the brain because I think part of the brain and part of… Curious to get your thoughts on this, too. Part of lasting in the NBA, skill set, talent, size, strength, all that stuff, super important. Basketball intelligence, super important. What about emotional intelligence? What about being able to be a part of a group, be a part of a team, navigate locker room situations, navigate relationships with coaches, navigate relationships in the training room? I think to some degree, that's maybe not equally as important because you need all the stuff beforehand. But to last in the NBA, you have to have a level of that.

It goes back to the saying that I told you about one of my good friends, Jimmy Iveen, always talks about, When the shit gets bigger than the cat, you get rid of the fucking cat. And what he's saying, basically in basketball terms, is a lot of players, when they're at their peak of performance, but on the side that you're talking about, they haven't respected authority. They haven't come in and just wanted to be a part of the group. But they was averaging 25, 30 or whatever the case may be, and they were the shit. When that stuff starts to dwindle, And the shit is not as good as the individual anymore. They get rid of the cat. And we see it in our sport. You see it in sports in general. You have to play the game to play the game as well. And at the end of the day, being a good person shouldn't have to just be dedicated to just sports. That's fucking life. It's being a good fucking person. Hey, how are you doing? Good morning. Okay. Am I having a bad day? Okay, I might be having a bad day. All right.

You all right? Shit, just normal shit. If I'm walking to a door and a woman is beside me, no matter if she's a stranger or not, she's an older woman or younger, hold the fucking door open for her. I don't understand. Why is that such a like... That should be easy. That should be easy.

But it's not.Not everybody does it.professional sports. I had vets my rookie year that were like, Dude, you're coming into the practice facility. When you walk in a room, say hi to everybody. Acknowledge people. I was in my shit. I wasn't playing. I was upset.

You have to take that into account as well. No, no, no.

But at the end of the day, there is a-22. I was young, but whatever.

I think that helps you. You last longer in a department that you want to be a part of because you just played a game a little bit. I'm not telling you to be fake.

No, no, no. It's not that.

It's not being fake. It's just being human. Be a fucking human being, no matter what else, whatever you do.

That's a fine line between being in the league and not being in the league, right? So when you go 12 to 15 or whatever, the coach doesn't really want to be around somebody that's not a good person because there's somebody probably just as good as you or close to as good that you can play with that probably aren't going to play anyway at that point.

There's a lot of guys I know that I'm friends with that had 9 or 10-year careers that never played more than 10, 11 minutes in a game, never were really an 82-game regular rotation player, but they were great fucking dudes. And they lasted 9 or 10 years and maximized their career because of this very thing we're talking about.

If you get that 10th year, you get that pension.

You get that pension, you get that health care. You get that. It's a lifetime. The influence of the game in the NBA, European basketball on the college game. We maybe had talked about this, and we haven't really dove into this. It feels like at times when I watch college, there's a big difference between coaches who have embraced what I would call modern basketball concepts versus what I would call antiquated basketball concepts. Where is college basketball right now with being influenced by either the NBA or your or World FIBA competitions just in terms of X and O strategy?

Clearly, in my mind, the NBA has been influenced by the European basketball. I feel like college basketball is 2-3 years behind the The reason I say that is, for instance, when people started icing the ball screens, that took two years before it hit college basketball. Then everybody, to offset the ice, they started going to the elbow handouts, the dribble handouts. That took another two years before it hit college basketball. The last thing probably that occurs is the ISOs and finding the elephant in the room, I call it, the guy that can't really.Target hunting.Yeah, that's like LeBron was talking about, pointing it, we're going at him. That's probably the last thing. The one thing that's different is there's not as many great players in college basketball as there is in the NBA, so it's never going to look exactly the same. But I think the NBA has clearly been ahead of college basketball and will remain to be the driving force of college basketball. It takes coaches a long time to adjust. Probably when you played some, there were still some motion offense. You don't see hardly any of that anymore. We used to cover downscreens, backscreens, It's low crosses.

Now what we do is we cover ball screens and dribble handoffs and split screens like you were talking about. That's all we cover.

Nc State was the only team in my four years in college, and that was later on after Herb Sandek had left, I believe, that ice to pick and roll. Boston College still ran flex when they joined the ACC. Your boy Dudz.Yeah, like tight flex.Your boy Dudz.They literally just ran the flex offense.

Al Skinner, right?

And That's all they ran. I get the difference between, or I should say, being behind on things. The one thing I have noticed, particularly this spring in March Madness, is There are some really good coaches that are being creative with non- shooting players, non-spacing players. The difference, of course, between the NBA and Feeba in that you can be in the paint. There are certain players. It's not like the NBA. The NBA is the best of the best. Great college team might have two or three NBA guys. Of those two or three guys, maybe one guy has a 10-year career. That's just the reality. There's going to be players on the floor that you don't have to guard. And, Yukon does this with Danny Hurley. I saw the Baylor women's team do this at the end of the game on a need three situation. You use the non- shooter in the in the corner, you put the shooter either on the block or on the same side wing, skip pass, either uphill DHO or a DHO to the person on the block. Baylor It's hard. I've used it to get a game-tying three to send it into overtime.

Because then his man can't really help on those hands. Because he's so far away from them. So far away. I think that's one thing, and I think the other thing is using your shooters as screeners more, both on the ball and off the ball, back screen, into a down screen or back screen into a ball screen, just trying to get your shooter involved. But your idea is a really good one because they're always late. You were talking about being late to the hand off and the ball screen, the overreaction.

That's a good point. When Yukon runs that play with their big guy, there's constant overreaction. They get slips, they get threes.

You saw it last year. Obviously, they're doing it again this year, but Jordan Hawkins got so much action last year over that because they had a non-shoot and big out there. Obviously, Jordan Hawkins is being body to body, but X4, X5 does guard a non- shooter. He can't get back up the floor.

I just want to draw one play. I just want to draw one play.

They're not used to being out there either. Right.

I'm sorry, I got to draw one. It's like a fish out the water. Because I'm like a... Especially in college, where these people guarding non-shooters are literally standing.

I hate to bring it up, but Illinois went 55 real minutes without scoring a point versus Yukon.

Uva had 14 in the first half. It went, I don't know, close to 43 minutes without scoring an actual point. It was insane. Cheers, Coach.

Cheers, man.

Good seeing. If a team is top-locking a shooter over here. Let's say this is fluff. This is fluff. This is like the four man going to screen. You've got your five over here. This guy's pulled all the way. This is where the ball is. This is what I'm talking about. You set this up with the away screen. This defender jumps into a top lock. This guy is just sitting in the paint. You skip past it to the corner. Here's the uphill DHL. Now this guy's going to be late. This guy's out of position because he thinks this is coming. There are ways to get around the spacing issues in the coach.

The same thing he was saying, if I'm being top-locked, and the big comes as to pick and roll, or as to the wide pin, if I'm the guy that's being top-locked, I'm the shooter, I can go snake it and set the ball screen on the ball handler. Now my guy's top lock, he can't switch, he can't help. Now the ball handler comes off naked because my guy's only worried about me coming off to get a shot.

I used to do that with Joel. Remember our elbow, too, actually?

Absolutely.

Left elbow, I'm in left corner. A lot of teams would top lock it, and I would literally just walk my guy up into Joel's man.

You screen two guys at once.

Joel would spin, he'd get a lap.

Yeah, you screen two guys at once.

That's great stuff. Coach, before we let you go, and thanks for being our first guest. Thanks for having me. I got a question for you, and I'll ask LeBron this in two or seven years. We're not really sure. What are you going to miss the most about the game of basketball and about being around it every day?

I just think the effect you have on people. I think one of the things that I always tried to teach LeBron was you're going to hit some rough moments, but you got to battle through. I think that's the biggest thing is these young people need advice as to how to handle adversity, because what happens a lot of times is they get bailed out of adversity now. Nobody really teaches them what to do when they hit it, because we've all been there, right? We've all been in some tough situations. Just when you think things are going great, something happens. If you don't know how to handle it, it's really difficult.

Yeah, that's great.

All right, cheers, guys. Cheers. Coach, appreciate it.Thank.

You.i.

Appreciate you. Cheers. We're good?

High. Because he's so high.

Single-sided high.

Single-sided high.

He's so high. And you put the one here because if the one or the two decides to help on a lop, they're too small.

Hey, guys. Thanks for listening. Thanks for watching Mind the Game podcast. If you like it, please hit that subscribe button. Thank you.