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You're listening to a Morbid Network podcast. The Last City is a new scripted audio drama from WNDYRI. Enjoy The Last City on the WNDYRI app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of The Last City right now, ad free on WNDYRI Plus. Get started with your free trial at Hey, weirdos, I'm Ash. I'm Elaina.

I'm Karen.

And I'm Sabrina.

And this is Morbid.

Or wait, More appropriate.

Boo.

Boo.

We're really good guys.

Look at us. Did you guys think spirits were among us?

I know that they are after.

Yeah. Yes. We now know that spirits are very... I'm becoming more and more a true, true believer at this point. Oh, yeah. My skepticism is pretty much out the window.

After our night at the Lizzie Borden house, no way.

So much happened. So much happened. So we recently, as a forsum, stayed.

A fearsome forsum.

A fearsome forsum stayed at the Lizzie Borden bed and breakfast.

Again. And we did. Again.

We actually had it all to ourselves, which was Horrified.

So much scarier.

It was so much to ourselves that when we opened the door with the code, there was no one there to greet us. And we were like, Where are the people that work here?

We almost didn't ever ask.

Five hours later, we texted and we were like, Is someone here?

And they were like, Oh, shit. We forgot you guys.

We're just in the house tonight. And honestly, we have the ghost to thank for that because we wouldn't have contacted them unless we wanted to go to the basement. Which they wanted us to go. Which was the ghost for go to the fucking basement.

Go to the basement.

Yeah, because we had a bunch of our own ghost hunting, paranormal equipment. They give you some there if you want to do a little ghost hunt. And we were getting so much shit. We were getting EVPs. We were getting stuff over the spirit box. Lights were dimming.

I don't think we even had 15 minutes of peace.

Of chillness. No, never.

It was always on.

It kept happening. And the feeling in that place is like nothing else.

You can't describe it, but it's just so dark.

It hits you right away.

My favorite is when the delivery guy was dropping off dinner. Oh my God. I wish you all had seen his face.

He was like, I don't want to be here.

He was staring and I opened the door and I think he was even more stunned that I opened the door and he was like, Why are you here? He didn't say anything.

It's like the haunted house, the door creaks open. You standing there.

Are you here for me?

Is that my DoorDash?

He's like, I have a steak and cheese.

You guys want this?

Whole pork mac and cheese?

We definitely brought snacks for the entire village. We sure did.

Yes. They were offering. They were.

That's true.

When we got stressed out, we could just walk through the dining room and grab a snack real quick to calm us down. Never alone.

Never alone. Never alone. Until that very end. Which that was wild, too. I was not even going to the bathroom alone.

No. Any time someone had to go to the bathroom, it was like, Everybody gather. It was a group trip.

Also, the multiple times that I feel like we went to the bathroom, the rempods did go off. That happened more than just once.

Yeah, you're right.

That did happen.

Which is like, are they trying to scare us or were they trying to bring us back into the room?

They were like, Come back in here. What are you doing?

Or was it that we- That's just with our pants down. I don't know.

Yeah, there's also that. Or was it just that we left the room so they felt more comfortable walking about freely? Expressing themselves. Yeah.

They were like, Oh, they're gone.

Showing their true colors. Well, it's like when I fell asleep in the one room and you guys left me there.

We told you we were going.

We very gently- I was asleep. How did you tell me?

I woke you up.

Oh.

And I was like, You're in my line of sight because I sat at the end. So I could still see you. I was like, you want to sit?

So you want to see me. But then I did get spuked enough that I got up and I went and joined you guys in the other room. And then it was not like 90 seconds later. That the rem pod went off. Right next to the chair that fallen asleep in. Started going off. Yeah.

The ghost did call us annoying a lot.

They did so much. Call us many things. And stupid. Yeah.

And slutty.

Yeah. They call us sluts. Let's be real. The spirit called us slut.

Over and over.

It's like, okay, I get it. You're like, damn.

All right. Is this high school?

And just so you guys know, in case you don't know, the rem pod is this little box. It has a bunch of little lights on it and a big antenna. And it's not a motion detector.

It's not like you Well, there are four lights that light up if there is motion. But it's like close motion, right?

Yeah, very, very close.

It's going to be a lot of penetration.

It's not one of those.

Your hand has to be right on top of it. I guess I am, that's what.

I'm proving it right.

But there's also that middle button that kept going off, too, was temperature fluctuation. So we were getting a lot of all of it where it was like, it suddenly got colder in the room, setting off one alarm on the rem pod. And then all of the other four lights that would say how close something was in proximity, would start going off, meaning something was right on top of the box.

It was wild, really wild, the amount of things that happened in that house.

We were there for how long?

Nine hours?

I think it would take probably 10 hours for people to understand the... Actually, for us to go through all of it. Because we had so much activity.

It was astounding. I was actually astounding. We have a ton of recordings from it, like audio recordings, video recordings. And we're going to talk about a couple of them here, but we're going to do an in-depth look at them, and we're going to hear the actual recordings on the Two Girls, One Ghost podcast. So after you listen to this, head on over there and go listen to the in-depth stuff because you're going to hear the audio stuff. We'll talk even further about every room that we were in because, again, it's like 10 hours. It's so much. Just insanity.

Looking back at it, I was like, wow, all of that happened in one night. Yeah.

It's hard to even remember everything that happened because there was so much.

No, it's true. The next day, Drew was like, so what happened? I was like, I don't know. I was like, a ghost called us sluts. That's really the best time for you.

That was a highlight.

Yeah, that was definitely a highlight. It kept happening.

That's why it was the most memorable.

He would follow us around a little bit. And apparently, he was the trickster of the house. The guides told us that because we had a guide, Amber, who was phenomenal.

We love Amber.

She came later. Honestly, shout out Amber, who was in bed and the management company was like, oh, shit, we forgot people were staying at the house and they were supposed to get a tour. Will you go over to the house?

As if we hadn't already been investigating for like, 5 hours on our own. She came in and she was like, Oh, shit.

I like you guys because we should be there with all the equipment already ready.

I am glad that she came, though, because we were being led to the basement. Yes. And I think had we gone in there before, we wouldn't have understood that we were dealing with something that's a trickster spirit. And I'm worried that something scarier could have happened.

Because we could have been like, oh, who is this?

Because she was pretty quick to shoot that spirit down as she was around.

Yeah, she was great.

Whereas we might have inquired more and ask more questions. Who are you? We would have been tricked.

We were lured. We were being lured down there. Absolutely.

It was definitely him.

And they were super awesome after it. They were super apologetic that somebody wasn't there. It was a great experience. It was hilarious.

But he was scared because in the reservations, remember walking up to the house when she was coming to give us a tour, management called her and just said, you need to go give a ghost tour at the house and gave her no other information. And so she walked up and on her side of the tech that they use, it didn't show that anyone had booked any room because we just booked the house. So she was like, what the fuck?

She was like, what am I walking into right now?

Going to give a ghost tour to the ghosts.

Are the ghosts?

Are the ghosts? Sounding weird.

It's been great. She's been here tonight?

And then at 10:30, I think that she showed up.

It was late night. It was late. I can't imagine having to be on call for that.

No, like, prost to her truly.

And they're just like, wiki wiki, head on down. That'd be scary.

We love Amber. We love Amber. Impronto Ghost Hunt.

Yeah.

Team Amber for life. How fun, though. But yeah, T-Member. But we learned a lot, too. They give you a cool little backstory of certain things, and we got a little more insight into stuff. They make sure to tell you. We've covered this case on the episode. When was it? When was it?

It was 2018.

Yeah. 2019, I think.

Yeah? Yeah.

I think we did around that time, too. Yeah. But we learned so much more.

Yeah.

Being there? Being there. Oh, absolutely.

And with the guy. I feel like I know way more now than even when we presented the case. Oh, definitely. That's why we'll probably dip back into it at some point because we have more theories now. But we covered it. And again, I feel like I learned more this time, just of things little nuances of the case that I didn't know before. And they make sure to tell you that Lizzie and Emma, her sister, are not in that house. No, there's no ghost in that house is Lizzie.

And you don't feel like she is.

You don't feel like she is. No. But they say they hated that house. They didn't like living there when they were there because their dad, Andrew Borden, who is one of the victims. He was like, he grew up in poor.

Yeah, he made his own means.

He made And so he was very frugal as an adult because that's what he knew. That's the only way he knew.

I do love, though, that she said, while their spirits aren't actively there, people will hear screams because they were sisters. Residual. And it's this residual sisterly fighting. Yes. That was so interesting. And I love that because I know those screams. My sister and I were like that growing up. Yeah. Yeah.

So you know exactly what they're hearing. And their rooms are right next to each other. The way the house is set up is very 1800s.

It's like, you have to go into Lizzie's room to get to Emma's room.

It's a maze happening up there. It is wild that the parents would lock that door between the two rooms because Lizzie would steal things from the other room.

Yeah, she was known to be like a klepto. So I think they added a lock, and sometimes they would put a dresser in front of it.

At one point, didn't they say they nailed it shut?

Yeah, they said they nailed it shut at one point.

That's wild. It is.

They also locked their maid away each night, remember?

Oh, yeah. We heard that, too.

She told us that as we were going down from the attic, she showed where it locked on the outside.

Yeah.

What? Bridgette Sullivan. I hate that.

I don't think I heard that when we were there.

I thought there were no house fires or anything.

I know. Seriously, that's dangerous. Which we'll talk about, obviously, on the Two Girls, One Ghost feed. We're going to talk about that room, too, because we were in Bridgette Sullivan's room, and I feel like hers was very active. Every room was super active.

We have something from every single room.

We might need to look at a blueprint of the house. I know.

And go room by room. It's so true.

Honestly.

But on this feed, we decided because we were thinking about like, I can't say for certain what I think happened there.

I think that's what's really hard about the case.

It's so hard.

There is no answer.

And there's no obvious answer.

And there's so many theories that it's hard to land on just one.

And I know people are very definitive. A lot of people really think she did it, and they are really convinced she did it. I totally get why. And then there are a lot of people who are 100 % convinced she is innocent, and I totally get why, too. I can see 100 % both of those places.

I just can't land on either. I can't sit.

Me neither can't. Me neither. I sit right in the middle.

And we will never actually know.

Yeah, I don't think we'll... I'm one of those people with the Jack the Ripper case. We were five episodes into that. I was almost 100 pages into a dissertation about that case. You were driving yourself mad. I was becoming an actual Ripperologist at that point. I still... I'm like, I'm going to solve that case. And this is the same as as soon as I go into that house and start hearing about it again, I'm like, Well, let's go. Here I am. I need to solve the Lizzie Borden case. It's here. I was sitting here telling Ash about it, and I'll get into it, that I was getting on the floor and acting out certain things. She literally was. Because I was like, If you do it at this angle, it means the left-handed thing. And I don't know. Once I start, it's a problem.

It was impressive, too, because you started theorizing, and then you started looking at the different things that have actually been recorded throughout history, and they were right.

They were lining up with your theories. And then I get really excited when I agree, when old-timey detectives agree with me. You're like, did you get excited? I'm like, Hell, yeah. That guy.

You totally were like an old-timey detective in a past life. I feel like I was. 100 %.

I feel that in my bones. I feel that in my bones. You have that energy value. That's the best compliment ever.

No, I think so, too.

I love that. Because I love these old-timey cases.

I can't get enough to speak to you. And I guarantee you were the type of person that it was like, you were the type of person that it was like, we need them on the case.

Oh, hell, yeah. You were the sought-after detective.

Call me in the middle of the night. You were for sure smoking cigars.

Oh, my God. I can picture that right now. Oh, my God. I can picture that right now. Yeah, black and white.

With the hat and the trench coat.

You had a monicle just because I want you to have one.

Absolutely, I did.

For no other reason than that.

I didn't need it just for fashion. Just for the esthetic.

Now I want you to do a past life regression and see what cases you actually were on. Oh my God.

We should all do one together. That'd be fun.

Oh, we should.

We've been trying to find someone to do it with.

I would love to do that.

It's hard to find.

We just have to find a person to do it. Yeah, exactly.

We'll do that.

We'll do everything. We're already like, what's our next ghost hunt? Oh, yeah.

Like, this was only the beginning as far as what was going to be.

Yeah, pretty much.

And the four of us together, obviously, our energies trigger something because you had already been to the Lizzie Borne house and done an overnight, and you had said that there wasn't nearly as much.

Not at all. It was wild and heavy.

We definitely had some stuff go on.

We heard some things. You could see things out of the corner of your eyes. That happened a lot this time, but I thought a lot more this time. But we didn't get as many of the lights happening. I think it happened maybe, I can't fully remember. I feel like it might have happened once or twice.

It was also storming, so it was hard to determine the lights were because of that.

But this time it was- Nonstop. I was shocked.

It was the second we walked in with the lights. The second we walked in.

And it just It was relentless, the activity in that place.

This is our ghost hunting group now. I love this.

This is our ghost hunting group. We have to only...

Can we get jackets made?

Yeah. We're getting it. We're going to get you ghost girl hats. Hell, yes. And then, yes, we need to make jackets. We're getting jackets.

Okay. It's official.

It's happening.

I'm so excited.

Let's stop recording so we can figure out the jackets.

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Com.

Okay, but we haven't told you what we're doing on this feed. We told you a lot about what we're doing on the Two Girls, One Ghost feed, but on this feed, do you want to- Well, we decided because going back there, you start thinking about it.

You start hearing the actual stuff about the case. They have the autopsy photos there. They have the crime scene photos there. They are gnarly. They are. You can see them on the internet if you want to. But, warning, they are graphic. They're really rough. Very upsetting. But you start hearing about that stuff, and then you think about how people are either in one of those camps, innocent or guilty. There's rarely any in between or gray area. Except for all of us. People who think that she did it are being validated by that nursery rhyme that we all have heard once or twice. Laissey Borden took an ax. Gave her mother 40 wax. When she saw what she had done, she gave her father 41.

We used to jump her up to that when we were like, did you go and do that? Yes, that's the thing.

100 %.

And we figured we were like, wow, we're going to go into that nursery rhyme a little deeper and talk about how it is the most inaccurate thing you've ever heard. And also- In so many In so many ways. In so many ways. From the jump. And just assuming her guilt, first of all, but all wrong. And we thought, wow, nursery rimes do have weird origins. Some of them are scary, some of them are dark. Some are political. A lot of them are just weird. Some are funny. And a lot of them are just like, yeah, some of them are just strange.

They're like commentary.

Yeah. Why not look back on a few nursery rimes and see where they came from starting with the Lizzie Borden rhyme? Yes. So Ash is going to do a little introduction.

Yeah, I have a little intro that Dave helped me a shout out to Dave.

A little fancy intro. Yeah.

Okay. So as early as the 14th century, and honestly, probably even before that, adults and children have been making up and documenting songs and rimes to share stories and basically just try to explain the world around them. Commonly referred to as nursery rimes, these simple folk tales serve a ton of purposes, like entertainment, communication, social bonding. They also encourage phonological awareness, which is a way that people actually learn and understand the sound and structure of words and phrases. Or phrases, excuse me, which I thought was cool.

That is cool.

However, like folklore and urban legend, nursery rimes and children's songs are also a powerful means of conveying social norms, expectations, and shared morality. According to Lisa Hazelit from the University of South Dakota, nursery rimes are a form of, quote, unquote, hidden literacies. Their verses were powerful, subversive opinions of political, social, or religious commentary regarding then-contemporary events. So essentially, she's that just like slang or other types of culturally specific vernacular, nursery rimes are a way for a lot of times those in lower social or economic positions to criticize or talk back to their oppressors without being directly confrontational or putting themselves at risk. Which when you think about the Lizzie Borden, it's like you're mauling her, but it's a nursery rhyme. Now, like all different urban legends and folklore, they also tend to be regionally and address themes, ideas, or issues related to the place where they get created in the first place. So getting topical here, the Lizzie Borden took an ax rhyme. It's an upbeat eight-line children's rhyme that very loosely, like we were just saying, conveys the story of Lizzie Borden. And even though she ended up being found not guilty, most people in and around Fall River, Massachusetts, at the time, specifically, believed that Lizzie was most definitely responsible but had gotten away with the murder.

So she was completely completely ostracized by almost everybody in town. And local kids would gather outside of the house that she moved to after the murders, Maplecroft.

That was the one up on the hill, right?

Up on the hill. We actually drove by it when we left.

Oh, did you?

Yeah. It's beautiful. It is. But kids would literally stand outside that house, chanting that rhyme at her.

It's like impractical magic when all the kids bully.

Which? Which? Which? Which? Which You were saying that earlier. I know. If she didn't do it, how horrific. Like, your parents were murdered in your home, and then for the rest of your life, people are singing the song like you did it.

It has this weird, cheerful tone to it. It's like, la, la, la.

Why are people so mean? It's like the Freddie Kruger. People are still mean like that. Bullying into... Oh, yeah.

People are ruthless. People are ruthless.

It's a dawn of time. But it was a way of constantly reminding both the local courts and the very wealthy Lizzie Borden up on that hill that no No matter what the law said, they in the community knew for a fact that she was a murderer.

Which maybe not. Nobody can be sure. Nobody can be sure. Maybe.

Although the one fact that was really strange to me that Amber had told us was that they never searched her room because she was a woman. And it was improper. And it seemed improper.

Yeah.

Which that to me is crazy. They couldn't go in her room.

Well, even her throwing out some of her own bloody clothes, they didn't investigate it because She said she was on her period. So they were like, Oh, they were like, We don't need to know about that.

They were like, Oh, gross. Not touching that. Like seasoned investigators who were literally doing a crime scene where a man's face was just gone because of a hatchet, maybe.

I can smell the scent from her room.

We won't go in there. We won't touch that. It's like, what?

No, that's so fucked up.

This man's face was literally caved in, and you are scared of period blood?

Don't talk to us about that.

They're like, That's gross. That is wild. What's that then? What's that in the living room if this is gross? What's that?

They're like, That's our job.

But he's a man.

Yeah, he's a man. That's a man's blood.

That's cramium blood. That's cramium blood. It's different.

It's a different blood. But honestly, I think I'm going to end up becoming a Lizzieologist at some point. We're going to revisit it.

I think you might already be. We're going to revisit it. We're all invested.

So I think maybe if you guys are down at some point, we might do an in-depth look back at it. Are you going to write your own dissertation? Another dissertation is coming your way.

Honestly, this is one I could get down with because I remember hearing about this since third grade and just wanting to know the truth.

And obviously, we did the episode. We did one at the Lizzie Borne House years ago, obviously. Which was so scary. But we I'm not going to go as in-depth as I think I can now. So Uh-oh, everybody. That was at a different time. Strapping. It's happening. But right now, I'll just give you a quick little overview. I'm going to give you a look at the rhyme, and I'm going to tell you why the rhyme is wrong. And then Because I can't stop there ever, and brevity is not my strong suit, I have to talk to you about the autopsy really quick and why those wounds don't make any sense.

I'm excited for this because that's the perspective that none of us have the skillset to understand, and you do.

It's very interesting. It's an interesting one for sure. So as you guys know, Andrew and Abby Borden were killed in their home in Fall River, Massachusetts, on August fourth, 1892. Again, this is a huge Massachusetts crime. The fact that it happened right in Massachusetts, everybody's obsessed with it. We can't stop. It's never going to go away.

You go north, you get Salem and the witches. Exactly. You go south, you get Lizzie Borden and her ax. Yeah, so true.

We're really focused on these things. But like Ash said, a lot of people believe that Andrew and Abby Borden's daughter, Lizzie, is the culprit. But she was acquitted. Have to keep saying it. She was acquitted. So going back to the Lizzie Borden took an ax rhyme. We said, it's Lizzie Borden took an ax, gave her mother 40 wax. When she saw what she had done, she gave her father 41. This seems to have actually been created very soon after the trials and murder because in the news Herald on February 15th, 1894, so only two years after the crimes were committed, and actually, barely two years, there is an article that says, A Boston lady who brings her children up very carefully and never allows them to see a newspaper, found them on going into her nursery the other day, singing, Lizzie Borden took an ax, gave her mother 20 wax, after seeing what she had done, gave her father 21. So it started closer to the actual amount of ax wax that did happen. And we have since almost doubled the numbers.

Oh my gosh. Also, imagine sheltering your children forever, and that's the first fucking thing they find. You're like, this is exactly what I did in a while.

I'm like, you know what? Maybe let them read the newspaper now. Because maybe they'll have the real story at this point.

I also think it comments on our society and the way that it started with 20 wax to 40 of the way that we love to exaggerate and dramatize things over time.

And things that are already horrific in and of themselves who do not need to be made worse. She hatched in her father's face. No matter how many times, that's... Allegedly, she did. Somebody got Andrew Borden. No matter how many times that happened, it's brutal. We don't need to up the ante there.

And that's the thing. So the first thing that I can think of that's wrong about this is Andrew Borden was killed while taking a nap on the couch in the front sitting room, and he was struck with what they believe is a hatchet 11 times.

But Elaina doesn't know, guys.

We're not sure if it's a hatchet. They think it was a hatchet. They think it matched a hatchet. They found the head of a, I think, a handleless hatchet on the property, but they could never determine it was actually the one. But there are thoughts that it could have been something else, maybe an iron flat. One of those little things that was found on the stove, which they have a ton of in that house.

And we were talking about how much we love those.

And it's connected.

That room is connected to the kitchen.

It's a weapon of opportunity. It's right there.

It's a weapon of opportunity. It's right there. It's right there.

So that is a thought. And who knows? Because, again, autopsies weren't top-notch back then. So it's not like they could absolutely- Also, we should note that autopsies took place in the house. In the dining room.

Literally in the dining room.

Where we spent a lot of our night on the dining room table.

Where all our snacks were.

Was the autopsy table that was hanging up on display, was that the actual one used, or was that a replica?

That isn't the one that was actually used in this case, but it is an antique. It's not a replica. It's an antique autopsy table. So it was used for autopsies.

It was used for autopsies. It was used for autopsies. It was performed on their bodies.

Yeah, but not the Borden's for that one. But that is the actual room that it happened in. But Abby Borden was killed in the guest bedroom right up at the top of the stairs, and she was struck 18 times with a hatchet. So she got more than Andrew, and she was killed first, they believe.

Wasn't the uncle staying in that room during that time?

I think he was. That is the John Morse room, right?

Yeah, she was changing the linens.

Yeah, they believe she was. There's also a thought that I think Lizzie said at one point when they asked where Abby could have been, she was like, she was probably sewing. And there's a sewing machine in there. So there was all these theories, was she sitting down when it happened? I don't think so. It doesn't make sense to me. But it's fully believed that Abby was killed first, while, like you said, she was either Putting linens away, doing something in that room. It's a guest bedroom. You're always doing something in a guest bedroom when someone's staying with you. So there is a closet at the top of the staircase, too. And it's thought that maybe someone had hit... Investigators believe this, that someone hid in that closet and came out when she was in the bedroom and struck her from behind, possibly waited in that closet again until Andrew came home and fell asleep, and then went down and killed him. Then, and that all makes sense because no one else saw anybody else. So it makes sense that he would hide or she. Then when we stayed in the house this time, what made this wild to me was we went into that John Morse room, the room that Abby was found in, the room that that infamous crime scene photo was taken in.

And the words immediately that came through on our little spirit box type thing was dirty and then closet. And as soon as they said closet in that room, I asked, did someone hide in the closet? And then she said startled. And we were like, did they startle you?

And we didn't know any of the closet stuff before.

We didn't know it before. Yeah. I didn't know that that was a possibility. And when I found that out, I was like, why in that room? Would How did that word come out?

Because it didn't happen again or before that in any other room.

No, not the word closet.

I mean, that was like every haunting we experienced was so specific to what has happened in the house, what is alleged to have happened, and the types of ghosts that are said to be in those rooms. And I feel like, I mean, I said this to you when we got to the house, like, Corinne and I both decided we're not going to relisten to the episode that we did about Lizzie Borden because we just didn't want any information to sway our experience.

We didn't want to be influenced.

No, definitely not.

So the fact that none of us, maybe in the past we had that knowledge, but that it was just like...

Yeah, that's what the closet thing really shook me. That's a weird word to just be said in that room. It's so specific. It was like a minute after we got in that room, too. It was like we were in that room, we settled for a second, and then it was like closet.

Right. Well, and those words were not repeated at all. Never. Throughout the night in any other room.

First and only time that that was said. Yes. And it's like when I found out that they think someone was hiding in the closet, it's like, why would that be said? That's so much of a coincidence if that's the case.

And there's so many other EVPs that will visit on you guys's feed that why would that be said in that room? Like the kids and everything. I can't wait to talk about that.

When we get into the kids, guys, that's on another level. My husband is like a super... He's open-minded with that stuff, but he's a skeptic. He wants to debunk it immediately. And he can't stand any ghost shows or anything on TV where they're hunting ghosts. He's always like, I don't know. I feel like this is just for TV. He's a super...

Sometimes I feel like that, too. I do, too, sometimes.

I fully believe in the paranormal. Exactly. And when I watch those shows, I'm like, it's hard.

You're like, because it's TV. They need to entertain people.

Exactly. So he's always like, so when I came home and I showed him the video of the kids' room and some of the things that happened there, he was like, I have the chills. He was like, I can't explain that.

Because he gets the uncut version. He gets to watch the 16 minutes of us sitting there asking something happening. And the awkward 45 seconds of silence waiting for a response.

And then seeing that they fully responded to us while we were talking there, he was like, I I can't argue against that. That's a wild one.

Yeah. Each room was... And what happened in each room, what came through on the spirit boxes and all of the devices were very specific, the messaging.

Yeah, very much. And that closet thing, we started... And the word strangled came out in that room, too.

Yeah, that was in the actual spirit box that we were using.

Yeah. So we... So Ash and I were sitting here and we were trying to theorize around a strangulation, possibly, because that's not anywhere, really. When you find that... Some people have mentioned it here or there. It's really not a thing that she was strangled or anything like that. So I started, I was like, You know what? Let me look at the autopsy report and see if anything in there can tell you. It's not detailed. So it's like you're not getting a lot out of there. And nothing like right out, nothing screams, strangulation in that or anything like that. But there were contusions to the bridge of Abby's nose and her forehead, which are interesting. And initially, I figured my initial thought with that was like, okay, that was probably her falling forward after she got hit. Yeah. And she didn't stop herself using her hands because she had been hit in the head and incapacitated and just flat on the ground. Or maybe she fell forward and then was hit and it was like the force of the wax, like her face into the ground, that thing.

Or I mean, this is a really aggressive theory, but what if someone did grab her from the back of her neck and just slam her?

Exactly. Or possibly, like you said, grabbed her from the back of the neck and slam turned the wall in front of her into the wall in front of her into the bureau next to her. There's a bureau next to her. She was between the bed and the bureau.

It was a heavy duty piece of furniture. Oh, yeah.

You smacked your face into those.

That's solid wood. There was no wood veneer.

No, it is solid.

It's not from IKEA. It's heavy.

No, very solid. And these were two... Like the contusion on her forehead was on the left side above her eyebrow and on her left side of her forehead. And the bureau, if she was facing the wall, which is where she was found, is to her left. If they took her and slammed her into that dresser to first incapacitate her. But then, according to the autopsy report, looking at the 18 wounds to her head, the first one was called the glancing scalp wound. It seems to me like that would be one that was quick and not aimed properly. It was just to get her down. I just got to get this in. Wasn't even as hard as it could have possibly been because it's a glancing scalp wound. It was like two inches long, one and a half inches wide, and it was struck about three inches above her left ear hole. So that was interesting to me because it was said to be done in a downward's motion that did not penetrate the skull. So it just didn't go through the skull. Just a glancing scalp wound about three inches up from her ear hole, which is near your temple.

Does that mean someone was taller than her, too?

That was my thought, because if you look at Lizzie, Lizzie is like 5'3, 5'4 is what she thought have been. And so is Abby is 5'3. So they're about the same height.

I mean, I guess you could raise your...

You could definitely raise above for sure.

But she was also the first one killed in the house. And so that thing where you try to hit, but you miss, that to me, indicates there was still a lot of adrenaline and nervousness building up, too.

Especially if they're waiting in the closet for a long time.

And then you're just bursting out and you got to do it before she can scream. Because Bridget Sullivan is outside washing windows. We've all happening. So you need to do this quick and you need to incapacitate someone quick. Right. So, again, not hard enough to penetrate the skull, but a decent wound. And the temple area, which if you're hit in the temple, you're going to be dazed and startled. That's a place you don't want to be hit. It's going to fuck with you.

It doesn't that bleed a ton, too.

It bleeds a ton because there's a lot of stuff going on in there. But interestingly, though, it was her left side, which to me would seem to indicate a left-handed person. Because if you're walking up behind her, you're not going to reach across your body to whack her in the left side. That's a good point. That'd just be so awkward. Yeah, it would just be an awkward thing, and it would add extra seconds to what you're doing to cross body, and you're not getting a good whack.

Yeah, you don't have nearly as much control.

You don't have near... And then it's like, but if it was a glancing scalp wound, was it a right-handed person? And they didn't have a lot of control, so they hit it not that hard.

But also we have to remember that people were forced into learning to be right-handed. So perhaps it was someone who to the public and in school, were right-handed, but naturally to them using their left-hand. Exactly. Or their left-hand.

Because people point to the fact that Lizzie was right-handed.

But maybe in school, she was.

Nothing says that she was not ambidextrous and was just taught to be right-handed. We don't know. Either way. So it could have been either way. But then we were thinking, okay, that would happen if you were coming from behind. And I do believe she was snuck up on behind. I think so. Because the way she felt, it just doesn't make sense that she was turned to face someone. But the second hit was directly to the top of her skull, which if done by Lizzie, would only be done, likely, if Abby fell to her knees first.

Which she did, right?

Well, we don't know if she fell to her knees. She landed that way.

She ended up falling to her knees.

But I don't know if she just fell crumpled into that position because also they moved her to take pictures. So even a little bit hairy.

I forgot that they had moved them.

They said that she was found with her knees up a little bit. But that's like, we can only go by so much. But she would have had to have fallen to her knees if this was Lizzie because of the height. I don't think she would be able to get a good whack to the full top of her skull. And it wasn't done with her lying on the ground because you're not... If she's lying on the ground, then her head is a little down. You're not going to get a good whack on the top of the head. So she had to have been at least on her knees. And again, she would have needed to be facing away.

Here's a question, and I wonder if this lines. So we heard the closet startled. What if Abby was going to put away linens or to open that closet door and then got startled? That first scrape that hit on the odd side of the head where we're like, that person would have to be left-handed. What if that happened there? She started running. She was so scared. She fell down and hit herself, and that's when she was on the ground and started getting blood- That absolutely could have Yeah, that definitely could have.

But that does make sense.

Do they have imagery of blood spatter elsewhere?

That's an interesting thing. So they don't. It seems like it all happened in that corner. In that one spot. But also the blood spatter is strange. It doesn't seem like it was enough, almost.

So some could have been washed.

A lot of it probably got on the person, to be honest. And especially when you get to... We're going to get to a point where it does penetrate through the skull. In the autopsy report, the piece is due. And when it penetrates through a skull, you're going to be pulling back out and it's going to make a lock come out. So it's going to spray a lot. And it did stay in that little corner. So I think the majority of it happened in that corner. But it's just that thing of like, she definitely hadn't fallen down yet when that second hit happened. All the way at least. Because she at least had to be on her knees or standing because to get the top of the head, it's just the angle. With the wall there, you would have to almost golf club swing into the top of her head to get it. So you had to get a good leverage on her head.

So it's either someone who was taller or if it was Lizzie, she had to have been on her knees.

She had to have been on her knees.

Yeah.

Which works a little bit both ways because it's like at first you're like, okay, well, because they're the same height-ish a little bit, it's less likely to be Lizzie because they were able to do that. But then if she fell on her knees, it makes sense. And she was found with her knees up a little bit, which Which leads me to believe that she went down on her knees first and then was whacked down more because to get 18 wax and a lot of them on the top of the head, it was before you fell. And I don't think you were standing that whole time. I think you fell to your knees. To me, it's like definitive she was facing the other way and startled because like we said, it looks like a left-handed person. She was found facing the wall on her knees. If she had fallen to her knees after that first hit and was facing someone, she would have fallen all the down facing the other way.

You're not doing a spin after.

No, you're not going to turn and try to run into the wall. You're going to try to run out the door. Yeah.

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But there's a surprise little thing in that autopsy report, because before the head wound, so before that head wound on the left side of her skull, before even the one above that, she was struck in the back first, which confirms the turned around because it was somewhere above her spine in between the junction where her neck and her body meet. That would hurt so badly.

What I hate about this so much is that I'm picturing someone coming out of the closet making eye contact with Abby. Abby's already in that spot and doesn't really know what to do. She's got nowhere to go. And the person is just coming around and trying to almost hook her with the ax to prevent her from being able to get away. Exactly. She's cornered.

What if I hope she didn't see it coming. If she didn't make eye contact. And also, isn't there a place in your spine, you would know, where it's hit and it severs your ability to feel things? It's like C5.

It's like C5, it sits, stay alive is what it is.

I hope that she didn't feel the pain of everything else.

I think, unfortunately, this was a little superficial. I would love to believe that, too. But this is basically Basically, one of those things that just tells us a little more about the fact that she was facing the wall when this happened, which means either this person ran out of the closet up on her or they might have snuck on her. If she was bent down or getting something out of a drawer facing the bureau and they just creeped up behind her and then whack, or—and this is going in the direction of if it was Lizzie, she wouldn't have cared if Lizzie walked in the room. So if Lizzie walked up on her- She could have been just chatting, holding something behind her back. She just went about her business. If she was being like, Oh, Abby, blah, blah, blah, and then what about?

I think she called her Mother Borden.

Mother Borden?

No, no, no. Mrs. Borden. Mrs. Borden.

She wasn't her mother. She wasn't her mother.

And she didn't like her.

Yeah, they didn't get along.

Which, leaning toward, if Lizzie did it, Abby got hit a lot more- She sure did.

Than the father did. She sure did. Eighteen to eleven. That's a lot. There's that. And again, like I said, I don't know. I'm no longer convinced I have any idea what happens. Because the one reason that I buy Lizzie doing it is the whole theory of her father's abuse and all of that and her being pushed to a place where she had to defend herself.

But in that regard, it's like, wouldn't he then have more injuries?

You would think. That's the thing. Well, I was reading while you were reading all the autopsy reports. I was just reading different theories, and I guess there's not a lot of evidence that he was abusive towards her.

Yeah, I think it's just It's a rumor. It's like gossip.

Probably to try to justify why someone would do that.

Yeah. Actually, a lot of people say that she was his favorite daughter, and she was actually treated a lot better than Emma was. He gave into her request a lot more than he gave into Emma's. Interesting. Yeah.

I will say, though, with Abby getting more wax, it was the first crime out of the two. So you're less tired.

You got to make sure.

Yeah.

And also it's just like the- You need to make sure that it's done.

Right. Before you can get to it all. It's like when people are repeat offenders and repeat killers, oftentimes their earlier crimes are the ones that will get them caught because they're the messiest.

Yeah, it's true. And if they had the idea, I need to eliminate these two people, then I need to make sure this is done. I can't leave any possibility that this wasn't done before I move on to the next one.

You can take a little more time with Andrew. Yeah.

And especially if Andrew was out of the house in town while this was happening, they could have Which they had a little more time. They had a little more time. Yeah. And then they waited for him to come in and fall asleep.

And it makes sense because there's no way that he could have... I think even if he was sleeping, he would have been woken up by this sound. She would have... Right. Not necessarily that she would have screamed because maybe she didn't. But I think just the sound of repeated- Because they're close.

Those rooms are not far away from each other.

Yeah, they said... I think it was Bridget and somebody else, I'm not sure who was with her, who discovered Abby's body, and they only made it halfway up the stairs before they saw Yeah, it was right there. Because it's that room right at the top of the stairs.

It's literally right there. You would definitely hear something. Yeah, that's for sure.

And it's an old home. You would hear someone bump to the floor.

And not only is it an old home, there was no electricity, no water, no nothing. So it's even quieter than a regular house.

Yeah, you can't blame it on anything else.

Yeah, exactly. And going back to how the word strangulation was said in the room when we were there, I was trying to think of any way that this would work. And the only thing I can think of is, could she have been placed in a headlock in any at any point during this? And then the person struck down at her that way. That's what I thought. But that's also taking away a lot of leverage and force.

It could also just imply loss of breathing. Just the shock.

Like feeling strangled.

Feeling like you're strangled. Also, maybe blood was coming out of your mouth, which could cause strangulation. That's true. I've been watching a lot of house lately.

I feel like I I'm not sure what my theories. But there's also that theory of the iron flat being used as the murder weapon, which is an interesting thing because they're not even sure that the hatchet matches all the wounds. They think it's a likely hatchet, but it's interesting that that's not even set in stone, but they really go with that.

I'm like, this was an interesting investigation, you all.

Yeah, but the closet thing is wild. That is wild. That one blows my mind. That is wild. Just the fact that that was said. Yeah. But back to the rhyme, just to include that. Whatever you think happened, if Lizzie did it or not, the rhyme has remained and is very wrong. It's wrong about the number of times they were both hit. It's presuming an ax was used, which an ax wasn't even the thing that they thought was used. It's a hatchet, which is a different thing.

That's always what I equate with this crime, I'm like, Oh, you think Lizzie Borden, you think ax. And then I think I just recently realized, no, it wasn't even an ax. Even though we've covered this before, my brain always goes there.

Because it's just indoctrinated by that nursery, right? Lizzie Borden took an ax. That's like, No, she didn't. You don't say Lizzie Borden took a hatchet. It does not sound the same. It's too wordy. Too many syllabus. You need something that rimes with wax. That's the only thing that works. Hatchet, you can't.

Which a hatchet is much easier to wield than an ax. It is.

That's the other thing.

It's so true.

It's a handheld thing. But that rhyme is also assuming and telling everybody else that Lizzie is the one who did it, not even giving you any other suspects, just Lizzie did it. And like you said, when she went to live on the hill in Maplecroft, kids would sing it on her lawn and sing it on her front porch. And if she didn't do it, that's the most horrific nightmare I could ever imagine.

Didn't you say they also used to throw rotten eggs at her house?

Oh, yeah. So in A newspaper article called Bothering Lizzie: Grown Boys and Girls, Unwelcome Callers at Ms. Borden's. It was in the Fall River Daily Globe on May ninth, 1902. It said, The police were called to the Borden home and led to believe the Hill Boys and Girls were trampling over the lawn, lambasting the side of the Borden home with decayed eggs, ringing the doorbell late at night, tying the doors, and calling her vile names when Lizzie answered the door. The police were unable to capture the offenders.

Which if she didn't do it, that's so fucked. Like, this girl was acquitted. Yeah, and these were just acquitted. These are like no- Rich assholes.

Well, and what this is, is their parents telling them, That's Lizzie Borden's house. She killed her parents. It was like, they're the ones telling that. Those kids aren't coming up with it on their own. No.

Where was Emma again when this happened?

Emma was visiting friends when this happened.

When the murder happened?

Or she had been gone for two weeks?

And I think they lived- No, later in life, they spent a lot of time together. They did. They did. But then I think there was a big feud between them toward the end of their lives. I remember the original tour that we went on. Something happened between them and Emma left Maplecroft.

Yeah, I think you're right. And you know what? We'll go further into that when we revisit this case because we are absolutely revisiting this case.

Because I have so many theories I want to get into, but we don't have time today. And I'm chomping at the bit just to talk about all of this. I know.

So then I'm like, we're going to do a whole other thing on this because I'm going to look into everything. Who knows?

Maybe we'll have to go back.

I know. Now I'm like... We can go there. It's conceivable that we can go back. So it's like being able to go to the actual place that it happened is a whole different ball game. Because Jack the Ripper, I was like, Can we go to White Chapel really quick? I I just want to see these places.

Let's go, girl.

I'm in. Let's go.

Next time you go, you just bust in. You're like, Okay, here are the theories.

Tell me which one's right.

Say a name.

I'm going to go room to room and do an investigation again. I think we have to. I'm just saying. I think so. Okay. But yeah. So that is the Lizzie Borden took an ax nursery rhyme. Yes. And should I start with my first other nursery rhyme? Noisery rhyme? This is my second noisery rhyme.

I love that. Noisery. I like that, noisery.

So that's a nursery rhyme, but it's more like you said, like jumping rope song. Yeah, it's a jump rope song.

Because you're trying to get a jump rope song.

Exactly. There you go. Yeah, because you say like, one, two, three. This is an actual nursery rhyme. So everybody knows three blind mice.

Yes.

The strangest nursery rhyme ever. It really is. It's pretty out front with the brutality and the weirdness because you're just topping off mice's tails. Yeah, don't be doing that. So So this is actually... This is definitely one of those Mary Tudor nursery rimes. It was produced during her reign. A lot of nursery rimes, noisery rimes came out during her reign.

That is true. So many of them are about her. So many of them are about her.

And a lot of them are just sensational and wild. A lot of them are supposedly talking about her unrestrained use of violence to reinstate that Catholic Church in England. Among those, three blind mice definitely stands out as one of the more explicit it, like I was saying. It's just right out there. The rhyme first appeared in, I don't know if I'm going to say this right, Deuteromelia? Deuteromelia? I'm going to go with that. You did it. You went for it. I did it. Or the second part of music's melody which is a book of poems and songs that was originally published in 1609. And this is what it originally said, Three blind mice, three blind mice, Dame Lulian, dame Lulian, the miller and his merry old wife, she scraped her tripe, licked thou the knife? ' Don't know what the fuck that means, but it was written in Old English. And the rhyme doesn't specifically reference violence in this version of it. And given the language, it's a little difficult to interpret, actually, at all.

But later- But whatever she's doing, she seems to enjoy it if she's licking the knife at the end.

There's a knife involved. It seems like there's some... Something's brewing. It's a weird visual. But later we got the more commonly known version, and that's three blind mice, three blind mice, see how they run, see how they run. They all ran after the farmer's wife who cut off their tails with a carving knife. Did you ever see such a sight in your life as three blind mice? And in this version, Mary Tudor is supposed to be the farmer's wife or the person in a position of power. And the three blind mice are a lot of times interpreted as the three Protestant bishops that Tudor had blinded and burned at the stake for defying her attempts to reinstate Catholic power in England. Shit. So it's pretty gnarly. Now, interestingly, this rhyme first appeared as a folk song, and according to Iona and Peter Opey, they didn't appear in children's literature until about 1842. And in that case, the very thinly veiled references to violence and their possible connection to Tudor actually makes sense. They're more explicit because they're intended for adults at that point. But as a children's rhyme, it still conveys a reminder, I guess, of the dangers one can face when you know willfully defying the Crown of the Church.

So don't do that. Don't keep it that weird. Don't keep it that weird, I suppose, because you can be blinded and burned at the stake, I suppose. Fun. It's a bad thing to do.

I mean, you could do do. Anything back in the day.

You could literally do nothing and be accused of something. You could just exist. Exactly. Breathing, having lungs in your body.

Being a woman.

Being any human. So, yeah, that's three blind mice Really cute rhyme. Always thought it was weird. Never sing it to my kids.

Yeah, there's a lot of rimes. I feel like we didn't sing any nursery rimes to your kids because they're all strange.

Yeah, we got some books when they were little. People would give you books of nursery rimes and stuff. And a lot of times I'd be in the middle of reading one at bedtime and I'd be like, We're going to do another book. I don't know about this one because a lot of them have racist undertones. And they're not even subtle. I'm It's right out there. I feel gross reading this, so I'm not going to read it to you.

And we're going to get rid of this book.

Yeah, we're going to go ahead and say goodbye to that one.

It is weird and disturbing how so many things that are geared towards children, their roots are very terrifying or just- Violent. Violent. Racist. Even Grims' fairy tales. So many fairytales are rooted in dark things. Or a lot of them... Even I was looking at some European and worldwide nursery rimes, and so many of them are written to terrify kids with the purpose of behave or this terrifying monster is going to come eat you.

Yes.

That's just how people raise their kids back in the day. They were just terrified them into submission.

It reminds me of Dwight in the office when he says, Learn your rules, you better learn your rules. If you don't, you'll be eaten in your sleep.

I never even watched The Office, but I learned that from you and I love it.

I say that all the time.

So funny. Well, I have a A little bit of a different one. I have Goosy Goosy Gander.

So adorable. I bet it has such a wholesome beginning.

I love that name. Goosy Goosy Gander. I didn't even know this one, actually. Really?

I don't think I do either. Do you know how it goes?

I will tell you now because I do now. But I guess this popular British children's rhyme, Goosy Goosy Gander, first appeared in Gammergerton's Garland or the nursery- That's adorable. The alliteration there. I know. I love a good alliteration. Oh, yeah. But it was a collection of popular children's nursery rimes, first published in 1780. 1984. And the most common version is, Goosy goosy gander, whether shall I wander? Upstairs and downstairs and in my lady's chamber. There I met an old man who wouldn't say his prayers. So I took him by his left leg and threw him down the stairs.

I hope the left leg is not about a leg.

Well, later versions of this rhyme came to include an additional four lines. Because it needed a little bit more. Yeah, they were like, You know That's not enough. It leaves you wanting more.

It did, to be honest.

It did.

So here you go. The stairs went crack. He nearly broke his back. I'm sure. And all the little ducks went quack, quack, quack.

Adorable.

So one popular Love it.

I just picture a child just launching an old man down the stairs by his left leg. And it's like, what? Because he didn't pray? Because he didn't pray.

He didn't say his prayers. And then the ducks are like, quack, quack, quack, quack, quack, quack.

To me, it was like when it was talking about the ladies' chambers and stuff, I felt like he was just a perv that they were like, Yeah.

And they just kick you out. They just launched him down the stairs.

That's why I was hoping it was launched by the third leg.

I think you guys are on to the right track there. Because one popular interpretation of this rhyme is that it contains sexual overtones with the Goose symbolizing fertility, particularly with the reference My Lady's chamber. Similarly, a librarians Chris Roberts writes, In days gone by Goose was a common term for, and he as prostitute. So the early part of the rhyme conceivably alludes to the spread of venerial disease, with lines about wandering in a lady's chamber, referring to the procurement of a sex worker services. And then throwing them out once the services have been procured.

Yeah. Yes.

Right.

But- No one likes a man who lingers.

No, don't be lingering. She'll throw you down the stairs. But that's not the only interpretation. Another popular interpretation is that the Goosy-gander rhyme actually tells a story of religious persecution in England. I guess in 1650, there were a shit ton of brothels around London that existed on land that was actually owned by the Catholic Church, which, conceived that in your mind. Yeah, interesting. Yeah, very ironic. But when Henry the eighth seised that land and then claimed it for the Crown, he not only shut down the brothel, sending their customers, wandering, but he also dealt a very heavy blow to Catholicism. So the reference to the old who wouldn't say his prayers could possibly be a reference to Catholic priests and bishops who were punished for not reading from scripture published by the Church of England and for resisting or defying Protestant authority. So not only would that explanation be a more complete interpretation of the rhyme, because the sexual overtones are there, but then you get to the end and it does fall off.

It unravels.

It would like he wouldn't say his prayers. But it would also be in keeping with Hazelit's theory of hidden literacies. In this case, the simple cheery children's rhyme is used to explain a major shift in the physical and cultural landscape that removed power from the Catholic Church, and it reminded others of the potential consequences of defying Protestant rule.

Damn, Henry VIII is just all up in everything terrible. He's everywhere. He's just all up in everything. He's in history.

He might be my Jack the Ripper.

It's fascinating.

London and English history. And Anne Boleyn.

And Anne Boleyn. Once you start looking into that, it's It's hard to stop.

And there's so many mysteries, like the missing princes. Yes. The Princes of the tower?

It's so sad. It's so, so sad.

They found them, didn't they? They found them, didn't they?

They believe. So they found the remains of two childlike... But there's no way to verify. You can't confirm it, right?

Yeah.

That's so sad. But they just believe it to be true. But there's so many... The Wives, we saw Six, which, by the way, got so good.

Oh, wait, I saw it, too.

It's so fucking good. I loved it.

It It was so fun.

That was my first Broadway show.

I loved at the end how everyone was standing up and dancing.

It was really fun.

It was like a party. Everyone just dances. The music is so fun. It was really fun.

It's like after that, you're just like, now I want to know everything. You just can't stop. I'm like, now I have to I saw that show right after we had done a two-parter on Tower of London. Oh, really?

And so I was so fully immersed in that history already.

I was like, we left, and I was rattling off all these facts to my family.

And my sister's like, who are you? What is going on? That's Sometimes when you hyper fixate on something and you're like, let me tell you everything I know.

Oh my God. What is wrong with you?

John knows all about hyper fixation because every single week I'll look over at him and I'll just be like, do you want to know about submersibles? And he's like, why? He's like, no, I don't, actually. He's like, again? Sometimes I'll come over and he's like, she's going to tell you about this.

Yeah, he's like, She's going to tell you about something today. Just listen.

Just let her get through it. Do you guys have a hyper fixation meal?

Like a food that you just have eaten every single day for three years.

And then I wear it out to the point where I don't like it. And then I have to leave it for a while. And then I'll come back to it later.

I feel like so many people have those, and I don't think I have one.

Really? Yeah. Because I feel a little bit out of the crowd because everyone- You're an explorer. Yeah. You're a Gemini.

I am a Gemini. I feel like Gemenis are just like, whatever. I'll do whatever. But every girly on TikTok is like, This is my hyper fixation meal.

And I'm like, I want one.

I hyper fix it on everything. I have a hyper fixation meal, music, movies, books.

I hyper hyper fixate on things.

When I have it, when I'm in one thing, I'm so hyper in it.

I have to know everything about it.

John showed me Ghost, the band. I knew the entire lore of that band. And three years in, we don't really listen to other music. No.

Like in the car with Elaina, I listen to a lot of other music. No, you get in the car with me, I'm like, the boop. It's just like, shuffling through. And this is why we understand your daylist recommendations.

Wait, what's up? Let's check our daylist. Oh, yes. Mine always are mean to me. Is this one mean to you right now? Oh, wait.

Oh.

Mine is Antidepression Grief Thursday. Wow. That sounds like what mine usually are.

Mine's '90s Thursday Afternoon, actually. That's fun. That's great. Which is less aggressive. And the first song on it is by Ghost.

I just wanted it.

So accurate. Mine is Nostalgia Ox Approved Thursday Afternoon, and the first song is Rock Your Body by Justin Timberland. I don't know about that, you guys. That is so good. Oh my God. I love that. Mine is also just spot on.

And again, Cozy Granola Vibes, Thursday afternoon. Cozy Granola Vibes. Wait, what's your first song? Because maybe we have the same one. Mine's Orange Juice by Noah Khan. Oh, mine's beige by Yokelore. I haven't started my Rock Lobster B-52. Oh my God, I'm upset. The version yet. I feel like that is good. But I'll keep you updated. Yes, please do. Just once a day, I'm going to play it to see what it does to me. Just to see what's going on. Yeah. If you're listening to this podcast, then chances are good you are a fan of the Strange, Dark, and Mystierious. And If that's true, then you're in luck. Because once again, Mr. Ballen podcast, Strange, Dark, and Mystierious Stories, is available everywhere you get your podcasts. Each week on the Mr. Ballon podcast, you'll hear news stories about inexplicable encounters, shocking disappearances, true crime cases, and everything in between. Like our recent episode titled White Dust. After a middle-aged couple failed to answer their daughter's messages and calls, the daughter drives the few hours to her parents house to check on them.

But after arriving and seeing both her parents' cars in the driveway, the daughter gets an uneasy feeling and just can't stomach going inside. To hear the rest of that story and hear hundreds more stories like it, follow Mr. Ballon podcast on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Prime members can listen early and add free on Amazon Music.

Okay, so this one that I chose has a lot of lore because there's two trains of thought in terms of what this nursery rhyme is talking about, but it's Georgie Porgy.

Have you heard this one? Georgie Porgy, Pudding and Pie, Kissed the Girls and Made Them Cry. When the Boys Come Out to Play, Georgie Porgy Ran away.

Georgie Georgie Porgy. Georgie Porgy. Georgie Porgy.

And so unfortunately, in modern day, this nursery rhyme is used often to taunt boys either named George or boys who are a little overweight because it's talking about him eating pie and just, you know.

Yeah.

Just enjoying his best life. Yeah.

Just enjoying the indulgences of life. Yeah. What's wrong with that? What's wrong with that? God, what is wrong?

But then he's like, non-consensually kissing girls and making them cry.

So you're like, Honestly, Georgie, fuck off. Georgie, you're Porgy.

You're Porgy, all right? We all know a Georgie Porgy. We all know a Georgie Porgy. We sure do. Unfortunately. I did have a Georgie Porgy growing up.

His name was...

Should I just out him?

She went first name, last name. She had just out him. You fucked up.

He did this to me. You fucked up big time. He would chase me for years and pin me down and kiss me on the playground.

And he recruited people. That is a salt. It was. Oh my God, that is. Wait, he recruited Do people to tackle you? He recruited. Wow. There was another kid, but they chased me. Wow, where were the adults when we were children? Today? That school will be shut down. That happened to me in second grade. But it has a better ending. But it has a better ending. Came up and tackled me and kissed me, and I punched him in the face. And so my parents got brought in to say that she got... Did you get in trouble?

I was going to get in trouble until my dad said, Did he kiss her? And they were like, Yeah. He was like, Did he ask before he did that?

And they were like, of course not.

They're in second grade, whatever.

And he was like, is he all right? Is he going to live? And they were like, yeah. And he was like, I see nothing wrong here except for what he did. You did like his body.

He was like, no one...

My dad was literally like, no one touches her without her consent. She has the right to do anything to defend herself.

Meanwhile, I was told.

It means he has a crush on you. And I'm like, there was like... I truly had bandaids covering my knees for years of my life because the amount of times I would fall on the pavement and scratch my knees from him.

Oh my God. This is traumatizing.

See, that was a such a bad one.

And this is why I spent three months in trauma treatment. Oh, yeah. That is such a common thing, too, that people still do. It's like, oh, he's mean to you because he has a crush on you. I never tell my kid that. No. Because it's in such conflicting- He's mean to you because he's an asshole. He's mean to you because he's an asshole. Don't go near him. Because you don't want them to grow up and seek romantic partners. That hurt them like shit. That being treated like shit means he likes you. No. He left me in a different way. No, he's just being a little dick. Being an asshole is not my love language. Not cute. No. Not cute.

Yeah. All right. We're all on the same page.

The Georgie Porgie hate group. Okay, well, it is believed that Georgie Porgy is based off of George Villiers, the first Duke of Buckingham, and King James I of England, because the two are rumored to have been lovers.

Lovers. Lovers.

So this is a bit of queer history making its way into a nursery rhyme.

Obsessed. King James first met George in 1614, and he was like, Oh, my God, whoa, this guy is super hot. And so he bought George a whole new wardrobe and many other things, which George is- It's a damn.

Right?

Are you love bombing?

Is this a sick- What's happening here? What's going on? Falling in love.

I love it. It's your pretty woman situation. It totally was. And George was super into it. So he also began intensely lobbying to be appointed as the Royal Cup bearer. Stop. Which was a position which- Which was not a euphemism. Are we sure? That's like a Freudian flip back in the day. It is. It totally is. But this position, if he got it, which, spoiler alert, he did, it would allow him to speak to the king as they served drinks at the royal table and basically just give him a lot of access to the king. And obviously, some alone time, I'm sure. Yeah, very He's wearing his cup. George also... Wait till you see this picture I added. George also started dancing at masks, which were these festive parties thrown in the court. And George would move his body in this really enchanting way, showing off his grace and his beauty and his physique. And he would wear these belly shirts and the skirt, which was a very normal costume, actually, for all of the dancers of that time. So I pulled a photo for you to see. When you see this, you're going to want him.

George is an enigma. We need a link tree. George. I like to know it for his outfit. Yes. George. George is Brittany Spears' Toxic. Yes. Oh my gosh. He really is. 100 %. So obviously, King James is like, How can I resist this man? How? He's so hot. And he would call him Steanie, which was a nickname named after another man who was said to have the face of an angel.

So his nickname for George, his cup bearer, was basically talking about how gorgeous he is.

So obviously people are like- This is adorable, so fine.

I love it.

It is really nice. But King James, he felt like he had to speak on the situation because there were a lot of rumors, and he was like, Let me dispel the rumors.

And so he went and officially made a speech to the Privy Court and said, You may be sure that I love the Earl of Beckenham more than anyone else and more than you who are here assembled.

I wish to speak in my own behalf and not to have it thought to be a defect, for Jesus Christ did the same, and therefore I cannot be blamed. Christ had John. I have George. I love it. So he was like, a success. This was like a very... He was defending it. I love that he embraced this. I love that. That's amazing. I love that. I just got to chill a little bit. I know. No, seriously. This is a lovely- I love that he's just like, J C. And John, okay? Yeah. J C. And George. You guys fed with Jesus? Why can't you put me in George? We're adding that to the jacket, J. C. And John. J C. And You being shitty to me about it. J. C. And John. They also... Oh, God. King James and George Lee would exchange these really romantic and seductive sexy letters to one another. I'm upset. Bring back letter writing. Right? Yes. Yes, please. Yeah, but then also bring back letter writing and only write what you're okay with future people reading on a podcast like hundreds of years in the future. Because they have the letters and we're about to expose some of it.

Let's go. Yes. King James wrote, God bless you, my sweet child and...

Wait. Yes. In a letter to George, King James wrote, God bless you, my sweet child and wife. And Grant... Because also he had a wife and a child, as you do back then. Everyone had a- It's a whole thing. Had a woman, but then sometimes they also had a man. Yeah. God bless you, my sweet child and wife, and grant that ye may ever be a comfort to your dear father and husband. And then George replied with a letter that said, I naturally so love your person, and I adore all your other parts, which are more than any man.

Oh, yeah. Oh, than any one man had.

So he's like, damn. I love that you're. He's like, damn.

He's fully turned, headphones off.

Oh, my gosh. Okay, and this is by far, I think, the sexiest line that has been written in one of their letters, because years later, because they had this love affair for over a decade. Years later, King James wrote another letter to George, and he was a little bit more straightforward and to the point.

He said, Whether you loved me now better than at a time which I shall never forget Farnum, where the bed's head could not be found between the master and his dog.

Is that not talking about role play? 100 %. That was sexy time.

Headboards banging, baby.

Yeah, damn.

Where were the body parts?

You couldn't even see them because they were freaking flying in Farnam.

Because the punishing was going crazy. I love the way that people turned each other on and talked each other's parts up back in the day.

There was so much more effort and thought put behind the words that they chose.

It was way more beautiful. Now it's so crass. Now it's like someone's just sending a dick pick. Yeah, unsolicited. I was in a church once. But that's I'm not going to finish it. You're just like, I was on a family vacation. You guys boom. That was- I was in a church once. J. C. And Sabrina. Oh my God. It's getting torrid in here. The doors to the church are always open. Hallelujah. Oh, my God. Okay, so these two men, King James and George, they stayed really close until King James... Well, close as in they were dating. They were fully lovers. They were fucking.

Yeah, they were fucking.

Until he died. King James did pass away in 1625, and George was also to have seduced some women in his time, too.

So he had partners of his own outside of King James, it is thought. But in terms of the nursery rhyme, to go back to Georgie Porgy's nursery rhyme, it was Georgie Porgy, Pudding and pie, kiss the girls, made them cry.

When the boys come out to play, Georgie Porgy ran away. So it's thought that perhaps this could be in reference to George spending some time outside of his relationship with King James, kissing women who potentially were married. And then those men coming a knock in to have a duel and to confront George. And he's running away.

He was like, Bye.

He's running away, and he's being protected by his lover, King James. The King. And And he has no intention of technically being with these women, probably.

So it's like he's in love with James.

So it's like, kiss the girls, make them cry because you're leaving them.

You really don't have- You're running.

You're running. It's a kiss and run. And King James did protect George a lot.

He actually dissolved Parliament twice to keep George from being impeached.

And then after King James passed away, George had very little protection left and eventually was assassinated by political rivals.

Wow. What a fucking story. I know. Damn. Why is there not a movie about this? I know. The whole way that you were talking about it, I was picturing it in my head like a movie. Oh my God. It really does feel like it.

Call me by your name. Where are the peaches? But he definitely has gout, so it's a little less hot. It's slightly less hot. If you get past the scabies.

But they could make it sexy.

Like the Maria Antoana movie.

Between the gout and the no hygiene whatsoever.

.

There should be a theater package, though, where similar to when you go to Disneyland and Universal and there's certain rides that will spray a scent at you.

There should be, not that I would ever want to experience this, but there should be some scented movies.

Yeah, absolutely. It's like the naked scene and they're getting all seduced. It's just musty.

Who makes those scents and is like, I could put this, this, and this together and it will smell like stinky feet?

You know what I mean?

It's a good question. I put Reanne because I feel like my nose is oriented to it.

It's pregnant women.

Just pregnant women do it.

There's got to be like, throw up buckets, right?

Oh, yeah. Absolutely. 100%. Or the jelly beans, the Harry Potter ones that taste like earwax and stuff.

You're like, But who knows? Why do they still get on?

They are. That also brings up so many questions.

You know how artificial vanilla is apparently made from beaver butt goo? Who decided, Let me just taste this excretion from a beaver's bum. Wow, this tastes like vanilla.

This is truly the exact... This is really upsetting. Who made that first move? Good Who made that step?

And who decided to put horsehooves in Skittles?

Yeah. And who killed the Bourdens? Exactly. These are the questions.

These are the questions on our new show. I'm just going to ask questions.

Now I'm back to our sitcom that we're creating. Our sitcom, for anyone that doesn't know, is Sabrina and I acting out her life with a two-person laugh track That is just Ash and Elaina. Just like the old man in the Muppets in a balcony somewhere. That will be a someday. The first episode can be the dick pick in the church. Honestly, Honestly. We should talk later, okay? Let's figure this out. We're going to get this done. George would be into it. So would King James. There you go. But going back to this nursery rhyme for just a moment, there is some debate over what or who this nursery rhyme references. So a lot of people believe believe that it's the story of the Duke, George, and King James I. But people also said that the line, When the Boys Come Out to Play, was actually added later. And there were no written theories about this nursery rhyme being about King James and George until Iona and Peter Opey, who are folklorists who use modern techniques to understand children's literature and nursery rimes, they theorized that this was in reference to George and James' affair. So they were the first people to put in print in many, many centuries, decades later that it was about these two.

But for a long time, people speculated that it was actually about King George IV, who was a larger man who had a lot of sex, had a lot of different women, had a lot of different children with those different women.

He hated his wives and would make them cry. And he loved to fight bare-knuckled in these illegal fighting rings.

So he would fight them and then maybe run away for his life. Yeah. Shit. But I guarantee That makes sense. People couldn't run away from him because he's the king.

They had to let him win.

That's true. Yeah, you're right. So that one does make sense.

But I prefer George and James's love story.

I like the love story. I prefer that way more romantic. I love that one. Yeah. So some nursery- Why Rimes? Have lovely beginning. Are beautiful. Yeah. Because we're going with that. We are. It's canon now. But it's James and George. We're going with it. Yeah. That's it. Okay, I can't pick between the two that I'm going to do, so I'm going to do abbreviated for both of them.

Love that.

Okay, because Rang around the Rosie, A pocketful of posies.

Did you say Ashes, Ashes, or A Tissue, A Tissue?

Oh, we said Ashes.

Ashes. Ashes. Okay, so I did two, but the website I found said, A Tissue, A Tissue. We all fall down. The king has sent his daughter to fetch a pale of water. A tissue, a Tissue, we all fall down. The Robin on the Steeple is singing to the people. A tissue, a tissue, we all fall down. Or Ashes Ashes. The wedding bells are ringing. The boys and girls are singing. A tissue, a tissue, we all fall down. Yeah, I never heard a tissue, a tissue. Me neither. But I like it better. I like Ashes better. I like Ashes, too.

And I think we all know Ashes. Yeah.

It's easier to say. It is. Because also over time, I think a lot of people adopted this nursery rhyme and changed it based on whatever was going on in that society. But as of recently, there's been a rumor that this is all about the Great Plague and that the Ring Around Roses is about the rashes that people would get, that the pocket full of posies is what doctors and medical people would use to cover up the stench. And then Ashes Ashes was to indicate the burning and cremating of all those who died. But it isn't true, you guys. I never knew that.

Because cremating was not allowed during this time.

Also, the first mention of Ringerround Rosie doesn't come around until 700 or so years afterwards. Oh. Yeah. Interesting. So then there's just a whole bunch of versions of what it could be, but I really like this one. What if it's actually a game? Kind of like, spin the bottle. Because in the 19th century, there was a Protestant dancing band in both America and England. Like Footloose.

Like Footloose, exactly.

And so kids would have these play parties where they would sing and dance and be like, F U.

F U.

And they would sing.

They would gather in a circle, holding hands, singing, Ranging around the Rosie.

And apparently, they make it a game where when you do We all fall down, whoever was the last person to fall down had to out who they crushed on in the circle.

This is so fun.

We've been playing wrong.

We've been playing it wrong. This is better. Isn't this a fun twist that we did? Yeah, I like this.

And they would either have to profess their love for someone in the circle or kiss or hug the person.

I'm thinking about all the people who would not fall down so they could kiss their crush.

Not fall down. Oh, yeah. I love that. I've never heard of that. Me neither. I had it either.

I was so surprised. That's so cool.

Because it's always listed as a nursery rhyme that's associated with dark history. Yeah. I know.

It always. And there's no evidence. There's literally no evidence that actually points to it being from the plague at all.

And now that you said all those things, they didn't come about until like, years and years later. That's so crazy. Yeah.

That's nuts. Okay, so then the last one I was going to do is London Bridge is Falling Down.

And London Bridge is falling down, falling down, falling down.

London Bridge is falling down, My Fair Lady. I couldn't remember the last line. You got me to submit. I started it, okay? I feel like you and I were staring into each other's eyes, too, as we were doing it.

It was like, someone's going to say it.

I also wonder if the microphone, I'm sure, didn't pick it up, but we were all rocking so aggressively to the right and left. And then, yeah, when you were a kid, you would hold hands with someone and then try to trap them. This is how I got my scar on the bottom of my lip. No way. I was underneath my cousin's and they were trying to trap me. And I think I tried to run out really quickly and I slid into the corner of a wall. Oh, my God. You were like, I'm not being trapped. And I didn't get caught.

And that's all that matters.

You were like, That's all that matters. You were like, That's the dark meaning. You were gushing blood in Bridge. I won. I won. Blood is gushing down my face. But basically, people believe that this is because it took... The London Bridge has been built, rebuilt, attacked, caught fire, again, fallen apart so many times, that it's a reference to that. And people say that there are so many pieces of the bridge now in the river below just because... Like, pieces would fall apart, like fall off. That's so scary. That's so scary. So there was a medieval Bridge that was the London Bridge, and then it was rebuilt and replaced in 1176, which took years to complete.

And it was during this building of the bridge that a really dark and morbid- TM.

Belief. It's a Superstition. It's not real, I guess. But the idea is that it was a superstition that the bridge would not stand unless they made a sacrifice to the gods and stuff. And so they would bury people alive in the bridge. And like, brick them in as it was being rebuilt? So there is this form of torture from the medieval times called immurement, which is when a person is encased into a room with no opening or exit and left there to die. So the lyrics that are take the key and lock her up seem to point to this, and there's a belief that they would trap people in these stones. There were some articles that say children. I just feel like it's one of those examples of making things more dramatic. Yeah.

Let's make it even worse. Yeah. And it was basically a sacrifice to the gods in order to keep the bridge standing.

Because this bridge has been taken down, and actually, I think the...

So there's the medieval London Bridge, there's the old London Bridge, there's the new old London Bridge, and then there's the current London Bridge. The new old London Bridge was actually like move brick by brick to Lake Havasu, Arizona.

Why? Yeah. What did Arizona do to get that?

What the fuck?

There's like this American millionaire, I must have been a billionaire, who was like, I want that bridge. Arizona was just like, Can I have it? They were like, Yeah. They don't already have enough weird stuff. Yeah, seriously. You got the London Bridge. Yeah. That's literally there. But so basically, you would find some evidence of people having been bricked in, and they never have. But- Oh, okay. Here's the best part about this nursery rhyme, and it's very musical. So the Vikings, they took on these conquests, and they would attack, they would murder, they would take over cities. So this belief is that they were heading towards London in 1014.

They were setting off on their ships, and they were getting towards the London Bridge.

And this part, I took some creative liberties. A man on the ship starts humming a tune under his breath. He sees the bridge up in the distance. I like it. London Bridge is falling down.

It's very, very quiet.

And then suddenly, next thing he knows, others are joining in. And by the time they reach the Bridge, it was a choir of boisterous, deep, baritone voices echoing off the waters.

Hell, yeah. All rowing to it. Rowing and harmonizing.

Their practice going to the beats. Their war musical number.

And they tried to attack the London Bridge.

I'm obsessed with that one. Yeah, that's my favorite.

That is the one.

The Vikings loved musicals. They do. They love a choreograph number.

They're brutal and violent. They will murder everyone. But damn, they love to row and sink. They will put on a show before they do it. Yeah, they will. Good for them. Their braids just billowing in the wind.

Yeah.

Those were our weird nursery rimes and a little bit of information on Lizzie Borden.

But we're definitely going to explore more because not only is Elina a Ripperologist, she is now a Lizzieologist.

And I'm joining on this one.

Yeah, Bordenologist. Let's go. Let's become board and all. Just together. We're in. We're in. Oh, absolutely. We'll be your laugh track for that episode. Yes. A gasp track. Yeah, I would say more gasping, more laughing.

Gosh. Oh, it's happening. All right.

So we're wrapping up this episode. But remember, you should go over to the Two Girls, One Ghost feed and listen to that episode where we're going to go talk about all of the scary shit in-depth that we experienced in the house.

We're going to have audio in there from it. Like, get ready. There's so much stuff to reference. There's so much stuff to reference. Yeah. So with that being said, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. But that's so weird that you don't go listen to Two Girls, One Ghost feed to hear all that vibe. Hear all that vibe. Double cry. Hear all that Follow Morbid on the WNDRI app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining WNDRI Plus in the WNDRI app or on Apple podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wndri. Com/survey. Hey, weirdos. We have a ton of episodes that we think you will just love. But if you scroll down the feed just a bit, there's one we think you should definitely check out if you missed it.

Episode 531, Tom Bird and Lorna Anderson-Eldrich is one of our favorite episodes, and you might even get a little bit more out of it, especially in light of the viral TikTok series, Who the Fuck Did I Marry? That is taking the internet by storm. Here's the deal, you guys. Tom Bird and Lorna Anderson, they wanted to spend their lives together, but there was a catch.

They were already married to other people. So they did as deviance do, and they devised a mischievous and murderous plan to rid themselves of their respective spouses. But just how far were they willing to go with their lies? And would they get away with it? You can find this episode by following Morbid and scrolling back a little bit to episode 531, Tom Bird and Lorna Anderson-Eldrich, or by searching Morbid Bird Anderson, wherever you listen to podcasts.