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And this is Morbid.

And it is part two of the Lipstick Killer. Part deux. Part one was rough.

But then you got a little palate cleanser of our besties, Curren and Sabrina.

Not between parts.

Bye. The way you said it last time made me think that.

No, I meant between the career girls and the lipstick killers. Two Girls, One Ghost.

Well, like I said, bye.

So part one was rough. Yeah. Not easy to get through.

No, that was one of the tougher ones, I think, that we've covered. Yeah.

And this is one that I think a lot of people have heard of. If you've studied true crime or read true crime books, anything like that. The Lipstick Killer, you always, like we said, associate it with William Hyrens. Yes. And I do wonder if that's going to change today.

Interesting.

And we talked a lot about the police department beating up a grandpa. That was horrible. And then realizing that, Oops, that wasn't him. Maybe it's two guys. Who knows? Who's to say? After all that. Yeah. I think when we last left you, they were in a true place of desperation. They are not handling the public outcry and the pressure very well. Not at all. And the press is doing their part to really fuck this case up further by not practicing responsible journalism in any shape of the word. Great. Yeah. They're just exploitation and just lies and riling people up. It was bad. This was bad.

It sounds like it was awful.

And so things are not going great. And then in late June 1946, at this point, we're out of Chicago right now just because we're bringing someone into the fold. Oh, okay. A jury in Phoenix, Arizona, found 42-year-old Richard Thomas guilty of, quote, Unnatural sex and attempted rape of his 12-year-old daughter.

Oh, my God.

Citing a guilty conscience and repeated nightmares, Thomas suddenly admitted to Arizona detectives that he was responsible for killing six-year-old Suzanne Degnan in Chicago earlier in the year.

Okay.

According to Thomas, he, frequently had what he called spells, accompanied accompanied by unnatural sexual urges and would often resort to theft and robbery in order to make quick money. Okay. In early January, Thomas was working at Woodlawn Hospital in Chicago.

I was waiting for the Chicago connection. There it is.

And on the night of January seventh, he told his supervisor he was sick and left work around 10:00 PM because, he knew he had to rob some money. And he claimed- Just had to. He had to. He claimed he picked the Degnan house because, it looked like I would find money and or jewels in there. Now, remember, Jim Degnan is an executive. Right. So at first, Thomas planned on using the painter ladder he'd taken from a yard down the street and even put it up against the house next to Suzanne's open window, which they did find a ladder, when he remembered that he had several master keys for various types of locks, and one happened to fit the lock on the lock on the Degnan's front door. Once inside, he proled around the open rooms until he entered Suzanne's room and found her sleeping.

So it is very possible that her mom did hear some dogs making noise if they had heard any of that.

Exactly. Wow. That they might have heard him proulling around. Right. And he said, When he walked into Suzanne's room, I decided I could make a lot of money quick by kidnapping her. Thomas said, So I scribbled a note on some brown paper I had brought along to wipe away fingerprints. Okay. All adding up so far. According to Thomas, Suzanne never woke up as he carried her out of the house and down the street and only began screaming once they were a few blocks away. That's horrible. Now, anyone with young kids knows that's entirely possible. Oh, yeah. Some kids, I was not gifted enough to have those children that you can bring from the car to the house while they sleep. Like, they wake up immediately.

I feel like most people aren't.

But honestly, there is a lot. I see a lot of my friends have kids that they can just take out of the car, sound asleep, and they will remain asleep until they put them in their bed. I was never one of those kids. Kids are like deep sleepers at times. So this does make sense, and it's horrific to think about. Now, worried her screaming would alert someone. Thomas said he put a bag over her head and covered her mouth until she stopped screaming. Now, he was thinking he had inadvertently killed her at this point. Like, by exefficating her. Thomas dropped her body into an open coal shoot at the house on Winthrop Street, then slid down the chute himself to gain access to the basement. There, he said he dismembered the using the surgical tools he had brought with him. Now, by that time, the story of the Degnan kidnapping and murder had spread across the country, and detectives in Arizona were very familiar with the case. Sensing that Thomas might be telling the truth here, detectives in Arizona contacted their counterparts in Chicago who, much to Arizona's surprise, didn't seem enthusiastic or even all that interested in this confession.

What? Actually, although Chicago chief of Detectives, Walter Storms, acknowledged, There was enough in Thomas's story to warrant a thorough investigation. Definitely. He added that Thomas, Might be trying to get out of being sentenced in Arizona on the rape charge. I think this would be a much In the first charge, you'd be facing death in Chicago for admitting to this, correct? This is very improbable.

Yeah.

The brutality and cruelty of the Degnan murder and dismemberment. Yeah. Kidnapping, murder, dismemberment, had shocked and outraged. I told you people were out for blood here. It had shocked and outraged people all over the country, with many in Chicago, specifically advocating for for judicial execution for the offender as soon as they were identified.

Exactly.

So the idea that someone would voluntarily confess to the crime and waive extradition back to Illinois in order to avoid prosecution for a lesser charge.

That just didn't make sense at all. That just didn't make sense at all. The other thing is, I don't know, obviously, how much was put into the media and the papers about all the different details of the case.

Which a lot was. The detectives were not good at keeping anything private.

So that makes sense. But he does seem to have every single detail possible. Which, again, every single detail sounds like it was reported, but it's all very specific.

He's also a piece of absolute fucking garbage, and he literally raped his own child. If he's capable of- Or attempted to rape his own child. He's a literal monster. So this is very possible. I wouldn't put this past someone who can do that.

And he's in Chicago at the time.

And he was in Chicago.

Employed in Chicago, not even just passing through.

Exactly. Yeah. So what happens? So everybody was just like, What? How does this make sense that wants to avoid the charge of rape by agreeing to confess to the murder and dismemberment of a six-year-old child who everyone is literally out for blood for the culprit of? Like, what? But the reason for Storm's eagerness to minimize and ultimately ignore Thomas's confession became clear because there was then an announcement of an arrest in the Degnan case. Okay. So right away you go, Oh, you just didn't want the case that you probably manufactured to fall apart.

You've zeroed in on someone.

Now, on the morning of June 26th, just hours before detectives in Arizona contacted Chief Storm for Thomas' confession. So just hours before they got this confession. Oh, no. Neighbors near the Degnan home spotted who they believe to be a prauler, leaving the home or leaving a home with some of the occupant's belongings. So somebody had burglarized. They alerted two police officers who immediately began pursuing this prawler. After cornering the suspect on a set of stairs, police tried to subdue the young man who He got back and almost managed to break free. Oh, wow. This next part is the only part of levity that you're going to hear in this case that you feel free to give it a little giggle because this is wholly cartoonish, and it really happened. Oh, God. So he tried to break free when a neighbor intervened by dropping a heavy flower pot on his head and knocking him unconscious.

That's quite literally like out of a slapstick comedy.

From a window dropped a flower pot, a la Three Stooges.

We love a Good Samaritan.

We love a Good Samaritan.

We love a comical Good Samaritan.

This is 100% true because he actually got very injured by this because unlike cartoons, you don't just see stars around your head, you actually get a traumatic head injury. You could also probably die Depending on how high up that paper was. Absolutely. No matter what, this particular little detail, if you found yourself going, That's okay. It won't happen again. It's okay. I want you to live in that place of levity for a while because you've earned it after listening to part one. Absolutely. Now, upon his arrest, the suspect was taken to a nearby hospital to be treated for a traumatic brain injury. There it is. Where he was eventually identified as William Hirens. Okay. William Hirens at this time was 17 years old, and He was a University of Chicago sophomore and the son of a police sergeant. Interesting. He did have a criminal record, though. His dad must have been fucking pissed. Yeah, his son was like, his dad was like, really, dude. Now, despite his young age, because 17, That's young. Hirens had arrests for burglary dating back years. Wow. He was a little thief. He was a little shit and a little thief.

His first arrest in 1942 when he was just 13 years old. Jesus. Someone was rebelling against that. I think so. Now, at the time, Hirens was arrested for burglarizing a neighbor's home and then accidentally causing a fire. But following his arrest, he confessed to at least 11 more burglaries in the neighborhood. Damn. Now, another arrest followed a year later when Hirens was caught leaking out of a building after burglarizing several of the apartments inside. Officers discovered, quote, several of the keys in the boy's possession were traced to the apartments which had been looted in other northside buildings. So he was just like a He was a burglar.

Can I also just say he doesn't seem like a criminal mastermind.

He certainly does not. It doesn't seem like he would just walk out of a building unsuspectingly because he hasn't so far. He seems like a bumbling teenager who's an asshole. Yes, correct. I'm not taking that away from him. He's a shithead. He goes into people's homes and steals their shit. That's fucked up. He's a shithead. And it's like, but so far, I'm not seeing much that leads up to abducting a six-year-old, taking her from her home, strangling her, and then dismembering her. I'm not seeing that.

None of that. And then anything that happened in the other two murders.

In the Brown or Ross case, I'm not seeing this whole like a bread knife through a neck and stabbing somebody in the neck several times. And in the face, I'm not seeing it here. No, because these people have to start somewhere. Absolutely.

These burglars aren't even violent. It doesn't sound like at least.

No, I'm not here. These ones in particular, we're not like, armed robberies and stuff. I mean, they're fucked up. Of course. But just a weird- A weird escalation. I didn't see a 17-year-old kid with a criminal record of burglary being caught for this. Being responsible for anything. Now, like this.

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Although investigators were able to identify him from his fingerprints, because obviously he had a criminal record, the head injury from the flower pot had actually caused tyrants to slip in and out of consciousness, so he wasn't able make a statement at first. Damn. But detectives and some physicians believed that at one point he was either faking or at least exaggerating his symptoms. I'm sure. Which he admits he was later. At first, he was genuinely hurt. Oh, yeah. But he keeps it going for a little while, and you'll see why. It's never been made clear why Hirens became a suspect in the Degnan murder.

What?

Much less the murders of Ross and Brown.

Nobody knows how he became a suspect?

There's really no clear reason. He became a suspect. What? The suspicion of burglary and resisting arrest was sufficient cause to at least take his fingerprints, which obviously were submitted to the FBI for analysis in comparison to the Brown and Degnan case because those are the only ones that had even slight fingerprints things to compare to, which they didn't even really have. Despite not having received any results from that analysis, Captain Emmet Evans told reporters, I'm convinced that the two prints brought out in this case were by the same person.

What?

So let me make sure you guys understand this. The Degnan case and the Brown case, Francis Brown and Suzanne Degnan, there were smudged one fingerprint available. It was like, barely anything. And they had not received analysis of these fingerprints. And you just said, I feel it in my gut. A comparison between the two. And he said, I'm convinced they are from the same people. I'm not talking about Josephine Ross and Francis Brown. I'm talking about Francis Brown and six-year-old Suzanne Degnan. This man is saying that he is sure this is the same person that committed those two crimes. In what world? No, I don't see it. Again, we talked about this in part one. In what world is Suzanne Degnan's case related to Francis Brown and Josephine Ross? I see Francis and Josephine being connected 100 %. Absolutely no doubt about it. I think those are two the same person. Agreed. I do not think on any realm or plane of reality that they are connected to the Suzanne Degnan case.

No, and I just can't stop thinking about the man. I'm sorry, I forgot his name, the man that confessed.

It sounds just perfect. Thomas.

Yeah. Thomas. It sounds perfect. And I mean, I know Suzanne wasn't sexually assaulted in any way, right?

Not that I don't think they could tell. Okay, that's awful. Because she was dismumbered.

But either way, he takes a baby out of her home. That's fucking perverted. Absolutely. And he also was accused of raping his daughter. There's a clear line there that connects those two crimes.

There's some pathology here that you should be taking a closer look at as an investigator. Exactly. And I realize it's the '40s, but like, come on people. I mean, this is just human. Right. Like, this is just me with eyes.

I just can't believe. I keep going back to the fact that they were just like, okay, yeah, call you back. Never. Yeah. To that confession. Yeah.

They were just like, oh, cool. We already have someone, though.

We have the 17 We have this 17-year-old that burgled the house.

We have this 17-year-old that we literally have no evidence to claim that he has anything to do with any of these murders, but we're just going to pin it on him, I think.

And we're never going to tell you why.

No, we're never going to. Even though this guy just confessed and was actually in Chicago and has a record that is very much on par with what has happened here. Right.

Like a perverted, disgusting, awful record.

Violent, awful record.

Then, again, knows a lot of details of this case. I don't know. I don't I don't fucking know, dude.

This Captain Emmet Evans, told reporters, I'm convinced that the two prints brought out in the case were made by the same person. Stop talking to reporters. But curiously, it wasn't police who even thought to check William Hyren's prints. It was James Gavin, a reporter for the Chicago Tribune, who suggested, Hey, why don't you check the prints against those found in the Degnant case? Okay. Let me be clear once again about that. They arrested William Hirens for Prouling. They were like, Cool. You have a record. You're like a little shit. You burglarize. He was going to be charged with burglary. That was it. Rightfully so. And then James Gavin, a reporter for the Chicago Tribune. Chicago Tribune. You got this. That was not hard to say. I don't know why it was. Sometimes it is. It's the O and the O. My brain's going faster than my mouth. That's why. Because I'm just like, because your thoughts are racing. This reporter looks at police and says, Do you think he murdered that six-year-old? And the police are like, Oh, my God. Brilliant. Let's go check his face. And he was like... And the police are like, How could we ever connect him to that, though?

And James Gavin, a reporter for the Chicago Tribune, says, Maybe you should compare the fingerprints. Like, what? And they were like, Holy shit. That's great.

Also, people say fuck shit all the time.

Of course they do.

Especially reporters, they come up random questions just to make a story a little more salacious.

This gets even better. No, you kept saying that last time and it actually did not. This gets even better. Because so James Gavin says, Hey, you should check those fingerprints against the ones found in the Degnan case. And they were like, Holy shit. That's such a cool idea. And Captain Evans was like, Wow, awesome. And he grabs another police sergeant in real-time after this reporter was like, You should check that. They were like, Good call. Nailed it. Good call. Solid idea. Then he grabs a police sergeant. They go into an exam room for 10 minutes. No. Come back out and announce, The prints match those in the Degnan case.

Wait, just two officers just went in the room and said, Hey, yo. How? What? That sounds like an SNL skit. I'm not even joking. No, it literally does.

That a reporter is like, Do you want to know how to do your job? And the police were like, That sounds so awesome. Let's give it a shot. And then they just go into a room together and come out and we're like, Everybody, we found them. And it's like, What? There was nothing leading you to this. Nothing.

And again, you... Sorry. My thoughts are going way faster than my brain. You were just saying, these are partial prints, if that. They're fucked up prints. And we didn't have nearly the technology to be 100% sure of that back then. No. We don't have the technology now to be 100% on partial prints. No.

Does this sound wild to you?

No. Don't you dare sit there across from me and tell me it gets better. Does it sound wild?

Because I will surprise you in the end with something about these fingerprints that you're hearing about.

Will you surprise me? Or will I just be like, Yeah, that checks?

Hopefully, I'll shock you because it's wild. Oh, God. Now, while detectives continue their attempts get Hirens to talk at this point because Hirens was like, No.

Like, I'm not going to- Other officers searched his dorm room because remember, he's a sophomore in college, where they found two medical kits containing a surgical saw and a scalpel set. Was he in medical school?

He was not. Okay, that's a little weird. It was absolutely weird. As well as other items recently stolen from nearby homes. So they were also like, Was this just stolen?

Yeah. Were you trying to sell this maybe?

Yeah. Including war bonds amounting to $2,100, jewelry. Other items found in his room were several knives and guns recently reported missing around Chicago. And there was also, and this is interesting and also shows who knows what this is about, they found a photo album of Nazi soldiers and guards, which they didn't know if it was stolen or if that was something he had or why he would have that. What it was fucking disturbing. Fucking disturbing. Like I said, not a good guy. Yeah, A weird, fucking not a good guy. Bad dude. But just as they had done with Hector, Verberg, Lassa, our grandfather. They beat the shit out of him. The local press made no attempt at objective reporting and seemed to go out of their way to associate William Hyrens right away with the brutal murders, despite a literal, total lack of evidence. Not a shred. Not shocked. Reporters described him as being, quote, built like a good football end, having, quote, a hint of a sneer and claimed to that, quote, it took four policemen to bring him in, and quoted one officer as saying they needed, quote, two straps to subdue him.

Okay. If you go ahead and Google William Hyrens when he was arrested.

No, but I already did, and I said, none of that's true.

This also directly contradicts their claims that he was unconscious when they brought him in?

Yeah.

But okay, I guess.

But okey dokey, Artichokey.

Yeah, why not? He's not a big dude by any means. No, he's really not. He's pretty lanky, to be honest. Now, when Hirens came into the hospital, he was very confused and believed that he had been arrested for burglary. So he was stunned when he realized that they suspected him of being a killer. Yeah. And especially when they said that they were suspecting him of being the killer of Suzanne Degnan. And William Hirens had followed the story in the papers, and he remembered how Hector had claimed he was tortured by police for days in an effort to get him to confess. Terrified. So Hirens later said about this time, he said, My best bet was to keep my eyes closed and my mouth shut. If the police thought I was still unconscious, maybe seriously hurt, they couldn't take me to the police station, handcuff me, and hang me over the door by my arms as I had heard they had done to Hector. Oh, wow. Unfortunately, Hirens knew he couldn't keep pretending for much longer. So that's why the police and the doctors were like, I think he was exaggerating because he did keep it going for longer because he just didn't want talk.

I mean. And so he knew he couldn't keep it going forever, though, especially with each new doctor who was being like, You're fucking faking it. I know that you are awake. Yeah. And so he finally asked a nurse for a drink of water, and that's when they alerted everyone to him being awake. Now, locked in an exam room, one wave of detectives after another took their run at him. They tried to get a confession out of him so they could finally close the books on the Degnan case. And at first, investigators tried the usual tactics. They told him they had arrested his mother and put her in with the prostitutes. Jesus. That's a quote. Of course. And that they'd arrested his girlfriend, Joanne, and would keep drilling her until he confessed and not let her go home. And hour after hour, he just sat silently waiting for his parents to arrive because he's 17. So are they even actually legally allowed to be doing any of this? And one detective after another aggressively confronted him, and they were shouting the details of Suzanne's murder at him. God. And so, Hirens had been arrested before, obviously, for burglary and shit.

Yeah. And given his age, he knew there was only so much they could do to him before they had to let him go or turn him over to his parents. He's technically a minor. In fact, Hyrens welcomed his parents' arrival because he thought naively that they would come to his rescue and make the whole thing go away. He was like, I just want to go home. But a long time had passed and they still hadn't arrived. And he grew more anxious and hours are going by and they're getting more and more aggressive. And finally, when one of the detectives started telling him they'd matched his fingerprints to those found at the Degnan case, the seriousness of the situation started to sink in. And he realized that they truly believed or they were going to intend to stick it on him, they truly believe that he killed Suzanne Degnan. What the fuck? Now, the more Hirens resisted and longer he remained silent, the more aggressive and impatient the interrogators got until Hirens heard one of them say something about Ether. That's like an old torture technique, essentially. And they said, I can make this guy talk.

What is it? Should I Google it? Google it. It was used in... It's almost part of the truth serum series of drugs. But it's not truth serum. But the way they would use it was to elicit confessions. And he remembers one of the men say, Ain't none of them can keep deal with this. What? And a moment later, he smelled the Ether because Ether is also used as an anesthetic. So he knew the smell of Ether because he had recognized it from a childhood surgery because they used to use Ether. Okay. Then one of the men in the room lifted his hospital gown to expose his genitals. No. He had no idea what was happening. And then he felt several drops of the Ether hit his scrotum, causing a feeling of intense cold, followed by excruciating that shot through his entire body.

It's literally described as a volatile liquid.

Yeah. Now, despite the physical and psychological torment, he remained silent. He did not confess.

Holy shit.

He still was thinking, too, that his parents were going to come get him.

His parents.

Or at the very least, he thought the police would realize they made a mistake with the fingerprints. That was what he alleged later. Yeah. Now, his parents were busy at home trying to deal with the horde of reporters who had descended upon their house as soon as his identity was announced to the press. When Hyren's mother, Margaret, first heard the announcement on the radio, her heart sank, and she immediately was like, I don't even know what we're going to be able to do to fix this. She said after all his burglaries, they would naturally suspect Bill. It did not take too much imagination to suggest the kinds of pressures the police could bring to bear on a 17-year-old boy.

Well, and they've already heard what they're doing to an elderly man.

The public, the press, and the police wanted the case cleared up so anyone would do so long as the police could make their charges stick. Under such circumstances, I felt Bill wouldn't have much of a chance. My God. Now, while detectives continued their relentless attempts to coerce a confession because remember, he has not confessed anything.

Also, a. K. A. Torture. Yeah.

Officers tore apart the Hiram's home looking for evidence. Chicago detectives had finally gotten around to talking to Richard Thomas, the guy in Arizona who literally confessed, and were quick to report that Thomas had actually changed his story and recanted the whole confession.

Yeah, because now here's another fucking guy. He's up for it.

He's going to take the fall for it. Now, Thomas was claiming he had nothing to do with the kidnapping or murder. And then he goes, Oh, you know what? I actually only wrote the ransom note for the actual killer.

What?

He said, This man asked a few days before the kidnapping if I wanted to go in on a snatch with him, which is a kidnapping. Sure. When he refused because he was like, I have a long criminal record. I probably shouldn't snatch a kid. Not for moral reasons. Just my record. I don't want to get in trouble. He said, The man asked if Thomas would at least write the ransom note. Who the.? No. Which Thomas agreed to do. And he said, later on that day, the child was kidnapped and killed. And he said, I saw the man washing blood off his hands in the bathroom, which several families used.

So to me, that says, Don't ask me to write anything down because my handwriting is definitely going to match that note because I definitely was there and definitely wrote that note, but no, I didn't have anything.

But I didn't have anything. Oops. Did I tell you that I actually committed the murder? What I meant was I just wrote the ransom note.

I feel like that guy is a pretty good fucking suspect. Who knows at the end of the day, but he's at least a terrible human being.

Exactly. And should be put away forever anyway. Now, Chief Storm's resistance to Richard Thomas's confession seemed odd to Arizona detectives because they were like, Arizona is like, what the fuck is going on in Chicago? Why are you trying to push this away? Yeah. But that's because they didn't know investigators in Chicago had already arrested William Hyrens and declared him the killer in the Degnan case. Under those circumstances, Thomas's confession would have been a very serious complication to their theory and one that could have undone their entire quote unquote case. It would have been easy for Chicago authorities to reject Thomas's confession as inaccurate when compared to the facts of the case, which they did claim. But what they couldn't explain away so easily was that the handwriting analysis in Phoenix had examined the ransom note in the Degnan case and compared it to Thomas's handwriting, declaring that there were unmistakable similarities between the documents, and they were most likely written by the same person.

Girl, what did I tell you?

Thus, Thomas' recanting and telling of a news story very conveniently solved the problem and removed him as a suspect, leaving only William Hyrens.

And And they had no connection, I'm assuming.

No connection.

So William just found him on the street and said, Hey, you want to write a note for me?

Yeah, you want to write a note? No. And this kid, this 17-year-old kid is like, I don't know. I think I want to kidnap a kid and murder her. Do you want to do it with me? Never done that before, but I was just thinking of doing this today. Like, no. Now, in the days after his arrest, tyrants remained almost completely silent and refused to cooperate with investigators, believing that if he didn't say anything, he couldn't get in trouble. So nevertheless, detectives continued building their case against him, routinely releasing information to the press. Oh, not always accurate information either. Of course. Of the information that would eventually be touted as irrefutable proof of his guilt None was more compelling or persuasive than the supposed fingerprint evidence that tied Hirens to the case. They were saying this is irrefutable.

I feel as though it's refutable.

I feel like there's so much refute here. I feel refute in my bones. I do. I'm like, someone's name is refute here. Now, when the Degnan scene was processed, the original Suzanne Degnan scene was processed, FBI agents discovered two fingerprints on the front of the hastily written ransom note. Because remember, there was that substance. Oil. Yeah. Which they photographed and returned to the Chicago police. After Hirens' arrest, the analyst for the Chicago Police Department, Sergeant Thomas Laffy, reviewed the prints and declared them incomplete, and quote, impossible to classify.

Much like we suspected.

Incomplete and impossible to classify. You cannot use these prints to classify anything. Also, Laffy compared the prints to those collected from... Because he was like, What I have here? Just to shoot my shot and to make sure I've crossed my T's and dot of my eyes. He compared those prints to those collected from all persons arrested between January and June of that year, but found no matches among them, despite Hirens having been arrested in May. So he would have already had his fingerprints compared to those. But three days after Hirens' arrest, Laffy told the press and his superiors that a print found on the back of the ransom note was actually a match for William Hirens.

How convenient.

Wait, Thomas Laffy. I thought that you just said that it's impossible. I got to go. But now no, it's like a full match. Like, what great print that you guys just happen to miss the first time around. That's so cool. That's so cool. That's so great for you guys. I love that you just keep falling into these awesome things. You should play the lotto. Yeah. It would later be made public that there was, in fact, No fingerprints on the back of the ransom note. That was a fucking lie.

That was just a bald-face lie. Cool.

He lied out of his lying fucking face.

Lied. To pin this on a random ass 17-year-old.

Lied.

Again, not saying this 17-year-old is an awesome 17-year-old, but- But if he didn't kill a six-year-old, then let's not pin it on a man.

I think that's something you would think we could all agree on. Still, it was the supposed fingerprint evidence that served as the basis for Hyren's being the prime suspect and the evidence on which his conviction would stand. This fake fingerprint that doesn't exist. It was also the fingerprints that supposedly linked the Brown and Degnan cases together.

Oh, no.

Detectives allege that the fingerprints on the ransom note were a match for the bloody fingerprint found on the door jamb at the Brown crime scene. That partial fingerprint? That one fingerprint. And since the Ross and Brown murders were believed to have been committed by the same person, investigators linked all three and tied them all to William Hyrens. Isn't that so convenient how that all lined up for them?

The wildest thing to me is that in all of these cases, nothing is missing.

No.

Nothing is missing.

He's a burglar. He's a known burglar. Thank you.

And he didn't take anything from the scenes. I shouldn't say nothing is missing. Like, 20 bucks was missing. But one of the first ones. But of all the things to steal.

This kid's stealing shit from houses.

He steals physical items, not just money.

So he can sell them. His shit, his stick, is stealing shit from people's houses. Like, come And one of the main things, especially in the Brown and Ross case, was it didn't appear anything was really missing. Right. There was jewelry. There was all kinds of stuff. You didn't steal any of it?

And I'm sorry, but Suzanne's case is not connected to these other two. It's not connected. You can't. It's not. I don't know what somebody could say to convince me otherwise. No.

So while the district attorney's office and higher ups at the Chicago Police Department continued feeding information about supposedly irrefutable evidence to the press. Which is very much refutable. No. Detectives continued their assault on a still completely silent hirens. He was still not confessing to it. It's not like he was giving them information.

I can't believe how long he held out.

When he wouldn't talk or refuse to give them the answers they wanted, detectives resorted to physical torture, including having a nurse perform a spinal tap without anesthesia.

Whose idea was that?

Which they claimed was being done to rule out brain damage. But they had do a spinal tap without anesthesia, just as physical torture. Oh, my God. Mm-hmm. They're sadistic. It's really wild.

Who the fuck was on this police force back then?

Yeah. No. What the fuck?

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Now on June 30th, William Hyren submitted to a polygraph examination, which he passed.

No.

However, when the results were reported to the press, they were deemed futile and inconclusive.

But he passed it. He passed the test, which again, hot dog trench coat.

But still.

But come on.

You have to remember, too, because as much as you say polygraphs are like, who the fuck knows really what's going on with them, they are reacting to your body's physiological responses to certain questions. So there's something to be taken from them, I would think. Absolutely. And obviously, some people can beat them. That's the thing.

I don't know what a 17-year-old kid is beating a polygraph. I don't know what a 17-year-old kid who's up for murder. I don't know how calm he is.

A 17-year-old kid who probably has a traumatic brain injury and is up for murder that I don't think he committed. I don't think he's going to be able to control his shit that much. I don't think so.

In order to to skew these results.

Wow. Now, when the polygraph exam failed to produce the results they were hoping for, the state's attorney, William Thouy, agreed to pay psychiatrist Dr. Roy Grinker a fee of $1,000 to administer sodium pentothal. Again, against Hiram's wishes and without consent of his parents. Illegal. That is truth serum. Illegal. Now, when the news about the so-called truth serum leaked to the press, State's attorney, Thouy, denied knowing anything about the drug or its use in the Hiram's case.

Yeah, because he'd lose his fucking job otherwise.

He told reporters, I don't know anything about what those psychiatrists did. I will neither confirm nor deny use of the drug because I do not know. When they testify concerning this in court, what they say is their testimony will be my opinion. I do not know what steps they took.

I genuinely hate people.

Despite his repeated, very clumsy denials of knowing anything about the administration of the drug, when he testified under oath in a 1952 post-conviction review of the case, Thouy admitted that not only was he fully aware, so he lied out of his fucking face like most of these assholes, he was fully aware that they used the drug, but he was in fact the one who'd ordered it and authorized the payment to the doctor.

I have to go. Oops. Once again.

No.

It's so scary. This is wild. It's so scary how people in positions of power could just get away with whatever the fuck they want to, and it can come out later and have no fucking bearing on anything.

No repercussions. No repercussions.

It's mind-blowing. Yeah. What the fuck? He just seems like, I can't conserve a deny.

I have no idea, bro.

And then he's like, Oh, shit. And he's like, Oh, I literally authorized it.

Yeah, I literally fully knew about that. In fact, I said to do it. And oh, shit, I authorize the payment because I paid him off to do it.

Oh, my God.

And these are the guys saying, We closed the case. You didn't close shit. You didn't do shit. This is the worst shit I have ever heard. It's like, what? You faked all of this shit. And the worst part is, it's like, whether William Hirens did it, which I'm going to say he didn't do it.

No, I don't think so, dude. I don't think he did it.

Whether he did or not, though, You didn't figure it out. No. You didn't prove it. If this man did this, this 17-year-old kid did this, you did not prove he did. No way. In any way, shape, or form. No way. And that's what's so frustrating is you didn't even have the fucking gall or you couldn't even... You don't even have the skillset to prove that he did it. If you really thought he did it, you could prove it. Absolutely. And you didn't even try. You rigged the game. Yes. Instead of winning it- You rigged it. Like a fucking champion and coming out of there and saying, Hey, everybody, we caught the fucker who did this. We finally did it. You can sleep soundly tonight. You rigged the fucking game because you're a little bitch. It's like that's such a cheap fucking way.

And it's like you said earlier, I don't know if it was this part or part one, but yes, they had pressure on them, but not for that long. No, it's not like this was like- This is within the same year.

And it's like, if you have pressure on you, like I said, I think in part one- Let it be a motivator. Do it like the Delphi murder case, those investigators. Yes. At the very least, they held shit close to the chest. And they did leak shit that everyone wanted to know details about that case. We all did. Yeah. And they were like, I'm sorry, you're not getting them because we We want to give you details that are going to compromise this investigation because we're going to do this shit right, whether you're putting pressure on us or not, because we want to do it and we want to close it, not just close it. It's so frustrating. So this asshole's remarkably invasive statement to the press about the use of the truth serum. Yes. It represents one of the most important aspects of the case against William Hyrens. The case was incredibly suspiciously thin, obviously, but the best piece of evidence that they had was fingerprint evidence. And this fingerprint evidence was apparently a nine-point match for William Hyrens.

What?

Now, the FBI and fingerprint experts consider a twelve-point match, the bare minimum for compelling fingerprint evidence.

Okay, so this is not compelling. Not twelve.

That's the bare minimum, twelve. In fact, the nine-point loop pattern that matched with William Hyrens would have also matched 65% of the population.

65% of the population?

65% of the population that have a loop pattern on their fingerprints. Are you fucking kidding me? Are you fucking kidding me?

Wait, The other thing here is, spoiler alert, anybody who knows this case, this guy gets convicted.

Yeah.

How? Yeah. In what fucking world?

Because it just keeps getting worse.

And never gets... He never gets out.

He never got out. He died in prison.

He was 83 when he died in prison. Yeah.

Essentially, to a certain extent, our fingerprints all look the same, obviously. They only become unique when it comes to the finer details, which is why a twelve-point match is considered the bare minimum. Otherwise, the evidence against Hirens was circumstantial at best, and at worst, purely speculative or completely manufactured. So this sensational fingerprint evidence is literal garbage. Had they taken the case to a jury on its merits, the state would have likely lost, and the murders of Ross, Brown, and Degnan would remain unsolved today. Thus, if Thouy in the district attorney's office wanted to close the books on those cases, they needed to build a case for the public that convincingly portrayed Hirens as a vicious criminal.

Which he wasn't.

Now, in the case against him, the use and willing participation of the press cannot be understated here. No way. They have fucking blood on their hands, and they should know it. From the moment he was arrested, the police and other law enforcement officials leaked and explicitly gave information to the press that while not claiming it to be irrefutable fact, were nonetheless stated with confidence and authority so that reporters could infer that it was the truth. That's why it was given to them with a lot of authority. Thouy's statement on the use of truth serum is characteristic of all the types of statements that are being given to the press on a regular basis here, where some nefarious or sensational detail or clue is very heavily implied to be true, but it's also vague enough to be denied, should it be proven false. When they weren't publishing vague statements from law enforcement, the press were publishing their own stories about Hirens that emphasized his criminal record, his size, and uncooperative disposition, and anything else that would distract from the fact that he was a 17-year-old boy being held on suspicion of three crimes for which there was very little, if no evidence for him committing.

And for which doesn't make sense we're even connected in the first place.

No.

No one's even saying that. No one's being like, this doesn't even fucking make sense that you're connecting these three murders. It makes no sense whatsoever. So at one point, a reporter for the Chicago Tribune- Another one? Even manufactured a story about Hyrens confessing.

What?

He had never confessed.

But they just made it up and printed it. They planted a story.

Just printed it like it was fact. The end result was that regardless of how questionable the physical evidence was, Any jury picked for a trial would enter that courtroom with a seriously negative impression because this guy supposedly confessed.

But he never did.

He never confessed. Oh, my God. He never confessed to this point. He had not confessed. That was an outright manufactured bullshit story.

What the fuck? How did they get away with that?

They all could just do whatever they wanted. Everybody is just playing their own fucking game. And they were all working together. Yeah. Now, on July second, William Hirens was transferred from the hospital to the infirmary wing of the Cook County Jail, where he spent about a week recovering from the initial head injury and the injuries sustained during his interrogation and torture. During During which time, investigators continued questioning him relentlessly. After one week, a defense attorney was finally assigned to him, though they wouldn't end up being much help for him. While he was in the infirmary, Hirens' attorney, John Coughlin, was summoned to the DA's office where they were offered a deal. This was the deal. If William Hirens confessed publicly to all three murders, the state would assure that there would be no death penalty and that the penalty would be one life term, all sentences running concurrently. Under this plea agreement, Hirens would have gone to prison for life, but on just one count of burglary because he would confess to the three murders but only be charged for the crime that they initially brought him in for, which was burglary. They wouldn't charge him for the murders.

He wouldn't be convicted on those murders. He would be convicted on burglary. Which- But get life.

What?

But that fact that he was only charged for burglary would be incredibly beneficial for him for purposes of parole later.

Yes.

So that was the deal. You're not going to get the death penalty. Admit to killing these three people so we can close our books and look good.

Which also right then and there proves to you that they didn't think he did this because had he done this, they would have wanted to put him to death.

Yeah, they would have wanted. And they also would have wanted to at least get him fucking convicted. They would have wanted those charges stick 100%. You're not going to send him to fucking prison for burglary. When he murdered three. For three of the biggest murder cases that the entire nation is shitting all over you for. You think anyone's going to be happy about that? Shut up.

What the fuck?

It just gets more and more infuriating. So without speaking to his client Coughlin agreed to get William to accept the deal and confess, reasoning that they stood no chance with a jury, and the result would definitely be him getting a death sentence. So a few weeks later, a In a statement to the press, Coughlin, his attorney, addressed the plea deal, essentially claiming it was William's idea to accept the plea. But it was not. It was not. He was never informed of this.

I would think that his parents would need to be informed if he was taking the deal, too, because he's a minor, right? Yeah.

And he was just never even... He wasn't informed of it. What the fuck? What the fuck? He said, For us to hazard his life on a plea of not guilty to the murder charges would be taking a risk with no visible hope of benefit to the defendant. When he advised us to his guilt, our course became clear. We have followed it in strict conformity with the ethics of our profession.

The ethics of yours?

Ethics is nowhere in this case, my friend. Ethics? There's no ethics in the press here, and there's no ethics in the law enforcement here. I don't think so. And there's no ethics in the law here. None of you are ethical.

None. No one in this fucking case.

Ultimately, it wasn't the torture. It wasn't the constant questioning from the police or even the defense attorneys agreeing to the plea deal without his consent that ended up breaking William Hirens. It was the Chicago Tribune article falsely claiming he had already confessed. When the article ran on July 16th claiming that he had killed all three in Robberies gone wrong. No. Remember, those first two- Nothing was taken. They were fucking adamant that those were not robberies. But now it worked for the story. In Robberies gone wrong, he washed the bodies. Robberies gone wrong. Come on. Robberies gone wrong are fucking messy. You leave shit ton behind because it's a robbery gone wrong. Because you're trying to get the fuck out of there. You're just trying to get the fuck out of there. That's not what these are, and they knew it. Oh, my God. So the other papers followed suit. They heard this false confession that it was a robbery gone wrong. The other papers just went, Sounds good. We'll just run that, whether it was true or not. And by the end of the day, all of Chicago believe that he was the confessed killer.

Wow. And His lawyer wrote in a 2002 clemency appeal, The concocted Chicago Tribune story broke Hirens's will and spirit. Of course it did. So they were like, This is what made him just go, Fuck it. I'm never going to win. I I'm already, even if I leave here, the entirety of Chicago thinks I confess to it.

What the... I can't just stop saying what the fuck.

Now certain that he was truly completely out of options, he agreed to a plea deal, and per their agreement, prepared to go before the state's attorney and the chief of police and confess to all three murders. What Hirens didn't know, and certainly never expected, was that in an effort to celebrate their having caught the killer. No. These good old boys, they did their jobs and they caught the killer ash. Oh, God, no.

I don't know what the fuck you're about to tell me.

Thouy invited every person who'd worked on the case and countless reporters and photographers to witness Hirens Confess.

And he had no idea.

On July 30th, 1946, he stood up before the room, shocked, and was asked by Thouy to, quote, Tell the truth about the murders. But rather than live up to his end of the bargain after seeing that, he responded and said, I don't know anything about them. Wow. Because he was like, Fuck you, dude.

Like, I'm not doing this. Outraged. So he didn't get his deal then.

So outraged that they'd been made to look bad in front of their precious press. Yeah. The district attorney's office rescinded their initial offer, but offered to one more chance to confess. This time, they took the concurrent sentences off the table, and instead, he would be guilty to the murder and receive three sentences to be served consecutively. If he accepted the New deal, William could expect to spend the rest of his life in prison, but at the very least, he would avoid the death penalty. Okay. So they were like, Those are your options. You go to prison for life, three consecutive life sentences, and just say that you murdered all three of them, and whatever, you'll go for burglary. This is like- Or you get the death penalty because you know you're going to get it.

This is heartbreaking.

Yeah.

I don't think he did this. And also, who the fuck did this? Exactly. They just walked around the rest of their lives. And what two different people, two different depraved, disturbed people just walked around the rest of their lives. Because let me tell you, yeah, those two first cases are connected. Second one, third one, excuse me, no.

No. Exactly. Now, after much discussion with his parents and his attorney who assured him a jury trial was a bad idea.

Which I think it was because everybody was tainted as fuck.

They had already said that he confessed. Right. No, even he didn't. But they said he confessed. So any jury walking in there had in their mind he confessed. No matter what. William Hirens accepted the plea agreement, and this time there would be no going back. So on August 6, 1946, he publicly confessed to murdering Josephine Ross, Francis Brown, and Suzanne Degna. Confession, during which he provided details of the murders. In a statement to the press, Thouy said he was willing to negotiate a plea deal for a confession, Because of his desire to make certain, not only in his own mind, but also to the satisfaction of the public, That in Hirens, the state had the slayer of Suzanne Degnan, Ms. Brown, and Mrs. Ross. Honestly, go fuck yourself. Without the confession, the state's case, he said this. I would like to point out. Without the confession, the state's case, based wholly on circumstantial evidence, was none too strong. We need to go over that again. They told William Hirens, You go to court for trial, you're convicted and going to die because our case is air fucking tight. We got fingerprints, we got all this shit.

So you can do that and you're going to die. Or you can take this plea deal and you can just go to prison for three consecutive life sentences, but you won't die. And then they said- And then after he did that, they go, Sike. Our case sucks. If we went to trial, we never would have got him convicted because we had shit. Literally just said that.

That kid was duped and duped and duped again.

They had Chicago detectives had spent months touting the fingerprint and handwriting evidence. They insisted, proved tyrant's guilt. And only after getting that confession, that two That's when Tui was willing to acknowledge that going forward with a jury trial was risky on their part, not his. And his own fucking dumb defense attorney railroaded him right along with everybody else.

Oh, my God.

So as part of his plea deal, Hirens agreed to describe in detail and even reenact the murders. They made him do that. On August seventh, he spent more than eight hours describing how and why he killed Degnan, Brown, and Ross, as well as several burglaries and other assaults. As they traveled from one crime scene to another, Hirens and representatives from the district and state attorneys' offices were followed by a huge audience of onlookers, all hoping to hear some piece of the shocking story. Oh, yeah. One of the onlookers said, he's not like he looks in his pictures. He looks gruesome. He looks gruesome? Yeah, because you think he's a convicted child killer and woman killer now. Yeah. Throughout the course of the reenactment, State's attorney, William Crowley, asked one leading question after another, quote, You did get the knife in a burglary, didn't you? Isn't this the one you took out of the Rodrick home? Like, just, here's all the information. Each time, Hirens would just respond in whatever way was expected and they'd move on.

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On September fourth, 1946, Hirens appeared in circuit court, where three psychiatrists told Chief Justice Harold Ward that he was, quote, legally sane but emotionally abnormal. So it ruled out an insanity claim and cleared the way for sentencing. The following day, Hirens was back in court for sentencing, and the state's attorney called a long list of experts, including investigators, fingerprint experts, handwriting experts, psychiatrists. They all testified on the state's behalf. Unfortunately, there's no documentary evidence of their testimony. Because the court reporter died before he was able to type up his notes.

Like, of natural causes?

I have no idea. Y'all. Y'all. Regardless. That would happen in this case. Regardless of what was said in court, the The outcome was as expected. Hirens pleaded guilty and was sentenced to three life sentences with a minimum of 61 years served before he would even be considered for parole.

Sixty-one years served.

Before you were even considered for parole. Oh, my God. Now, in the case of William Hirens, the facts and evidence have never really supported the theory or conviction.

Not ever.

Most familiar with the case agree now that given the similarities between the two of the murders, it's likely Josephine Ross and Francis Brown were killed by the same person. But given the lack of any similarities between those cases in the Degnan case, it's pretty unlikely the three are connected at all. We're only grouped together for the sake of closing all three at once. Those were the ones everyone was mad about. Let's shove them together and close them all at once.

I just can't believe people bought that. Yeah.

As for the evidence, because remember, I told you I had some more stuff about the fingerprints. You thought I had already told you about the fingerprints. So Hirens doesn't even didn't remotely match the description of the suspicious individuals that people would see in all three cases. Nor did he possess the knowledge or experience believed to be held by someone who dismembered Suzanne Degnan. In fact, none of the evidence collected in any of the cases could be conclusively traced back to him at all. Years later, during his many appeals, a team of experts reviewed the evidence and came to the following significant conclusions. One, despite what the press reported, the handwriting in the Degnan ransom note was not match for Hirons, though it bore great similarity to Richard Thomas's handwriting. Two, also, the handwriting on the wall at the Brown crime scene didn't match Hirons, nor was it a match for the handwriting on the Degnan Ransom Note. Those are two different people. In fact, several members of the review team believe that that message on the wall was likely written by one of the reporters at the scene in order to make the story more sensational.

No. No.

And I believe it. No, dude. Because now that you say that, a reporter is the one that found it.

Alone in a room. And he said, Guys, you got to come in here.

And this entire fucking case is known as the Lipstick murders and the Lipstick killer.

And what a fun way to get a fun nickname out of it that you can publish.

Who the fuck is that depraved? A humanity. Where is it? Let me know.

Exactly.

Oh, my God. No, I need one second. No, just hold on.

Let me have a moment.

Hold on one moment. Because I'm really trying to process here. Go ahead.

What the fucking fuck. Going back to the fingerprint found on the ransom note was only a nine-point match for Hyrens, meaning it also matched 65% of the population with a looped pattern.

Which, again, is genuinely the most That's the most insane thing I've ever heard.

Then the fingerprint found at the Brown crime scene that was supposedly a match for Hyrens was determined to actually be a rolled fingerprint, like those taken for a police fingerprint card, and was not at all similar to the types of fingerprints naturally left behind at a crime scene. The implication here is someone was sent back to that crime scene to plant the fingerprint to connect the cases because otherwise they would have never been connected. There was no way without that fingerprint that they were able to connect those cases. They needed that fingerprint. Otherwise, there was no conceivable way to connect these cases in any fucking world. How did this guy- But for them to go, Here we have a fingerprint that's at Degnan case and Brown case. Oh, my God. They're all connected. And isn't this so convenient? Because we know that the Francis Brown and the Josephine Ross murders were definitely by the same person. So if there was a fingerprint at the Brown case that's also at the Degnan case, well, then that person must have killed Josephine Ross, too. Oh, my God. We just found the killer of all three of these people.

Oh, my God.

That's why it came out as a rolled fingerprint because it was They were left there naturally.

You don't just roll up on a scene and just left to write your fucking hands. They took it and rolled that shit onto the door.

And finally- No, wait, I'm sorry.

No, wait. No, actually, just a sec. Somebody was tasked with that job and then went to bed that night and just said, Yeah, fuck, that's my job.

Yeah. Like, I guess that child murderer can just keep roaming around. How do you not think- But we'll get that. We'll get that William Hyren's off the streets, so that's good.

This makes me want to cry. Yeah, it's awful. How do you not think that way? That you just fucked up three murder cases and pinned them on some random fucking kid. You're not the best kid in the whole world. But a child murderer and now a crazed lunatic killer. Yeah.

Who tortures women and murders them in their homes.

Are not facing any justice. They're walking free. They're walking free. Maybe not walking free.

Well, not anymore. But there were two murderers in this case that got away with it. Right. Two.

Two different ones. And I mean, maybe not walking free because I think that Richard Thompson.

Oh, yeah. Richard. Richard Thomas.

Richard Thomas.

It does feel like he's regardless of what was going on there, he should be in jail anyways. I mean, again, '40s. And finally, analysis of Hiren's confessions, quote, revealed numerous inconsistencies between the confessions and the known facts of the crimes. And he was frequently wrong about basic facts of the cases, including locations, times, related events, same exact thing. And no one gave a shit. And it was just fine. Despite all this wild amount of questionable evidence in Hirens' case, the official position of the state of Illinois was and remains that William Hirens murdered Josephine Ross, Francis Brown, and Suzanne Degnan. In 1954, Hirens appealed his sentence on numerous grounds, ranging from a legal search and seizure to false arrest and abuse, and it was shot down by the Supreme Court who concluded, The The finding of the criminal court against petitioner on the issue is adequately supported by the evidence. It's not, though.

What evidence?

Still in their summary, the court acknowledged that, It may be conceded that the circumstances under which the crimes were committed, the opinions of examining psychiatrists, the involuntary disclosure of petitioner while under the influence of sodium pentothal, and other matters and evidence indicate the presence of an abnormality, rendering him unable to control his conduct, and might well have justified a finding that he was not legally responsible for the acts at the time they were committed. But the mere fact that counsel failed to advise their client to defend on such grounds does not amount to a denial of due to process.

But a lot of other things do amount to it.

Other appeals were filed in the years that followed, but none were successful. How? And in 1995, Hirens filed his final appeal, which resulted in the appellate court upholding the previous ruling and noting, Litigation has a beginning and of necessity, an end. The The end for William Hirens's has long since passed as far as those claims are concerned. So they were like, We don't want to hear it anymore. Oh my God. After serving 61 years of his sentence, Hirens came up for parole in July 2007. He told the Chicago Tribune, I figure I'll be getting out this year. No. It's a bad thing on the reputation of Illinois that they lock people up forever.

Yeah, it is.

In his previous bids for parole, Hirens had been denied in large part because he wouldn't admit to what he didn't do.

Because he didn't do it.

And unfortunately, this time would be no different. One parole board member said, The words I still haven't heard from Bill Hirens are, I ask for forgiveness for my crimes. So they wouldn't parole him because he wouldn't admit to doing it.

A second time or a third time, really.

It turned out that that would be William Hirens' last attempt at parole because on March fifth, 2012, he was found unresponsive in his cell at the Dixon Correctional Center and was transported to the University of Illinois Medical Center, where he was pronounced dead from complications from diabetes. He was 83 years old. And justice was not served.

I am without words. That's them. One of the most corrupt cases I've ever heard of in my life that man spent, are you ready, 66 years in prison for three crimes that I am fully willing to say he did not commit.

I do not believe he committed those crimes. I do not believe he committed those crimes.

Sixty-six years, his entire life.

17 years old. Died at 83.

I'm shell shocked right now. Absolutely shell shocked. It's just like, wow. And obviously, that's not the first time or unfortunately, the last time that will ever happen.

This is so great. But the It is egregious.

It is egregious. And it's just like, I just can't rationalize it in my brain that people can do this to other people.

Yeah.

Just to close a case, to close a case.

And it makes me angry that it's like, you didn't catch the person who snatched a baby out of her bed and dismembered her. Or brutalized that person away. You didn't put that person away. You didn't catch the person who broke into two women's apartments and brutalized them and left them in strange, unsett, awful, brutal positions for their family members and the cleaning woman to find those people. Get out, Scott free.

And then you just went around planting evidence at different scenes. That's wild. There's not words. There are not words. Wow. I'm so upset right now. I'm genuinely so upset.

I know it's a rough one. It's a very rough one.

I just can't believe that man spent 66 years of his fucking life in prison.

That's the thing.

And whoever did that was probably just laughing all the way around town.

That's the thing.

Who knows? I'm sure they went... I don't think a person like that just stops murdering people. Yeah. How many other people were murdered? That's the thing.

I'm like, okay. And honestly, I want to. I want to go back in the records and see after this. Were there other crimes? Were there anything else that was even slightly like these? Or did he see that somebody else got it pinned on him, and so he changed his MO? Or maybe moved somewhere. Moved somewhere else and started doing it? I want to look into that.

And there was no other suspects ever?

And they brought William Hirons in with nothing connected to these cases.

Just a burglary. And it's like, dude, and then listen, that's such a fucking cautionary tale. That's why you don't get yourself wrapped up in bad shit because more bad shit follows.

Who knows? Don't take that path.

I'm not saying he did that to himself. No, but you don't want to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

You don't want to be in that position. Yeah. Because that was wrong lifestyle choice at the right time for the police. Exactly. Is what it was. They saw their chance and they took it.

I'm so shook right now. I'm going to go donate money to the Innocence Project by.

It was wild. It really is a wild, wild. I thought forever that William Hirens was the obstacle killer because I never He didn't really looked into the case that far. And it's just not.

I can't believe there's not more information out there about- I just don't think he is.

If you start googling, look through, you'll see a lot of people suddenly realized a lot of things about the case and were like, oh, fuck. It was just like, holy shit.

Way too late.

Yeah.

It's so sad that there was no activist at the time that was able to help him in any way.

I know. To even try. Because now- Everything was so corrupt then. You know what I mean?

It was just like, now if this was happening, he would absolutely be helped in some way.

At least he would be getting some representation. You look and it's like the detectives are all wearing the detective hats. It's the classic, very corrupt, very different way of doing things back then that everything just gets swept under the rug.

Holy. This one moved me to a place I feel like I've never been moved.

It's a wild one. It is. And again, not saying William Hirens was this bastion of No, definitely not. Moral superiority or something like that. He was also 17, so you hope he would be able to turn shit around if he was given the chance to. Who knows?

His fucking brain wasn't even developed yet.

But it's like, I don't think he was a murderer. No. I really don't. No. I think that's really where it lies. I don't think he was a murderer. I don't think he did this. No. Wow. And that's unfortunate. Wow.

All right. Well, we hope you keep listening.

And we hope you- Keep it weird. Keep it weird.

But never so weird as any of this, because my freaking God, all of this was absolutely the weirdest fucking shit I've ever heard in my life.

I'm real stressed. I'm glad that this is out. Yeah.

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