One, two, three, whoa. That was perfect to me, that was the most perfect one to me. Hello and welcome to my favorite murder, the podcast, the true crime podcast you've been listening to for a couple of years. That's right. At almost five at this point. Oh, wow. Five years like the most. This is the longest I've ever had a job for sure. This is going to be my second longest relationship pretty soon now.

Yeah, I think we've put a lot of work into it. I think we've made it something special.

We really have. We didn't abandon it. No, we want we wanted to at times we did.

Oh. Like year two and a half got messy. It was very difficult to do. Hey, listen, all that sounds stupid now in the pandemic, right? Doesn't that sound like the dumbest fucking shit in the world? Absolutely. Like matters be nostalgic for old problems you used to have that used to take up your whole life and now you would kill for those to be your whole life.

Oh, man. This is and then the little things, too, that you miss about your normal life. I miss eyeliner. I miss liquid eyeliner and putting it on and lipstick for a reason. Yeah. Yeah. And and like any of that stuff. Yes. Any kind of plan to meet another human being and look them in the face. Excitement wonder truly just a deep, profound respect for your fellow man across the restaurant table from you.

Well we're all when this is over, not good. It's we're all going to be different and better write better people. We're going to appreciate life more. We're going to live in the moment instead of having future panic and past panic. There's just no point. We're all on a clock. We got it. We got to maximize these moments while we can. Hopefully, we're all listening during this time, taking time to work on ourselves, listening to a shit ton of self-help podcast.

Oh, I am Georgia. You should see the AB work. Well, I'm not doing that. It's crazy. How is that trampoline going behind you?

It looks like it's it's on its back like a beetle. Look like a dead bug.

I tried to roll it out the scope of my zoom and I hate to brag to everybody, but my zoom picks up the entire room. I don't know why the width of it is just it's just. Yeah, it's not right. It's not a tight shot. So I can't hide my the trampoline. I used four times and really thought I was on to something.

And then what usually happens at practice, usually it's that someone comes over and I want to hide all my shit and make it look like I'm much cleaner and tidier than I actually am. And then things get put away and they never come back out. OK, so it's not there in front of you. You're just not going to use it. Yeah, I like that too. I get that. Yeah. Well work on it. We'll do, we'll work on it.

It's like it's almost Halloween, which everyone knows is a great time to refocus your energies onto the perfect time to reset all the candy in your systems, your brand new candies.

I've already overdone it on candy in a way that was kind. Did you would you buy we got we got a bunch of the bags that have like two good candies in, like, two bad ones. Got a you got to pay the price. Never have, never have four good ones. You can just buy one carry. I just realized fuck the candy talk. Did you change the haunted chair. Yeah.

Well Steven maybe I mean ask me very politely say sorry. Oh my God.

Here, this whole time you've been sitting in this chair that sounds haunted when you move the creaking like boards of the basement haunted. I mean, again, it is a sensitivity I have with me and chairs. But I will say this. Those are jury chairs from downtown Los Angeles in like the 20s or 30s that they were. I found him in some store in Silver Lake.

But yeah, basically in like 1991 or 2001 or 2002.

That's cool. So they are you can actually the efforts of jurors from way back when. Yeah.

Old a bunch of, you know, middle aged men that look like Ernest Borgnine were the people that were on trials back then. We saw the play. We know. So now I have this whisper, silent folding chair that my friend Karen Anderson gave me as a housewarming present. That's my favorite. Like it's all told. I like it.

You seen it right, is gorgeous. It looks like wood, but it's a padded seat. It's gorgeous.

In my grandma's card table room. I know exactly the in the late extra ladies came over to play cards. She'd have a chair to bring out.

Yeah. And by that, you mean the crazy ladies, the ones that were a little bit extra. Oh, my God, that's right there. When I was a kid and she I'd stay with her for the summer and she'd take me to the card, the card games at her friend's house, and they'd all give me, like, all the candy and all their tchotchkes. And it was just so much fun.

Yeah. Candy and you take a nap because it would be very warm and it smells like a grandma, which I love.

Everybody called you honey. Yeah, Mom. I know Grandma Energy.

We could really do for some grandma energy in the world right now. Grandma energy is what we need.

You know what? I saw this, which is the kind of the corniest of all social media things, but my very favorite, which is every year, the holidays, the tweet goes around of the boy that got the text from the lady that said, oh, be here, whatever. And then he said, well, I'm not your grandson, but can I have a plate? And she said, of course, that's what grandmas do. You know, they're still doing it.

And that boy is now married.

Love them.

So he's my daddy now that he's married now with this gorgeous girl about covid, they still well, he said they're still going this. They can have a zoom or maybe like. Yeah, an outdoor.

So, I mean, since Christmas, it was never a big group at that family, but that it really is. My sister and I are talking about it. It's such a feel good like saying, you know, deep down maybe we can all get along type of thing because that lady came up that thing with such energy, like of course you can just like those are the grandmas I know. Treat yourself like a grandma who's nice. Like if you have a country grandma, don't treat yourself like that.

But yeah, you treat yourself like you imagine a grandma is supposed to be. Yeah.

There were many grandparents and people of your who were very damaged by coming up in this, like the American make or break, kind of like you had. You're on your own from age five. Bullshit abuse is the standard. And shut up about your feelings. And now you're going to roll your own cigarettes because we don't have the money for free rolled cigarettes at five, whatever.

Yeah, you don't get any candy and you'll like it. That whole mentality. There's some people that yeah. They it's just like in in our family where you say there's the good Irish and the bad Irish, you can either be like the fun drinking Irish with your arm around. People like telling a story and hit in here. Or you can be like those, the crazy, weird ones that are like secret drinkers and schizophrenic and all the crazy shit.

Don't be don't be the be the good guy. That's another one. Be that good Irish, not the crazy Irish.

Speaking of Irish watching Fargo, I think I'm caught up. Yes. I think I'm now caught up in kind of.

Oh I know this is the whole point of Fargo, but I'm kind of over the gangster stuff. I just want to watch Jesse Buckley, the redheaded nurse, live your fucking life like that's all. I am fascinated by that character. I just want to watch that part of it with the neighbors, her angel of death, life, or she's just doing whatever she wants in the way she threw rocks and the way you. But Jason Schwartzman, I was just like like she.

And then when when the when she found her closet, I can't say. Oh, never mind. Shit. Spoiler spoilers I just loved so good. Yeah. Yeah. The gangster stuff. I'm just like that. But you guys just get along and you can do crime together.

I know, I know but it's. Yeah you're right because it's a variation on a theme so it's always kind of the same thing. But you're right when she first I mean spoilers.

But these ones are old but it's like that first time she basically snuffed out just like we were like we were I thought we were getting set up to think she was Florence Nightingale.

Totally, totally so genius. And the way she's manipulating manipulates like the hospital, the head of the hospital and the way I love it.

That's the part I like pretty. It's pretty great. What else are you watching? Um. Oh, yeah. I watched American murder.

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

It's the Shannon Watts. Is that is it Shannon. Shannon. Yeah. Shannon and their two daughters murder.

It is. It's like arc that podcast cold about that case in Utah where it's just there's no redeeming Pete.

Teeny tiny bit of anything.

No, just horrendous. It's just confounding.

And you're watching it on a body cam, which you go, hey, hey, body cams would be the perfect idea if we didn't let the police control them because you are there. But then my thing was I went through that and then I went, oh, I don't want to ever do that again. I don't want to sit there with the. Police as they begin investigating this man, pretending to be upset because his wife is missing and you know, he's guilty.

It's it's such it's you know what it is? It's like, hey, everybody is on this true crime train in their own different compartment, in their own different way. And everybody gets what they get out of it. I get off there. I don't want to go that far. And I don't want to get that far in of especially when the story is so unbelievably tragic. And, yeah, like you're saying, Stark, he lied until that female cop was like.

So you're comfortable letting the public believe that your wife killed your girl? Yes. And he is like like he tried. He kept trying. And it was like, oh, my God, the monster. He's a monster. And it doesn't. And it's just impossible to wrap your fucking head around. What about the part? So tons of spoilers, guys, obviously. But what about Netflix? Right. It's American. We're about next door, a family next door, something the family next door.

But there was the part where the cop was in the neighbor's house and then the guy and the husband leaves and then he's like, he never acted like this. And that neighbor was onto it. And it's like spilling it. The second that guy walked out so fast.

I mean, it I mean, it wasn't even like, yeah, he's not acting normal because his wife's missing. He was like, that's not there's something fishy going on. It was immediately. Yeah, she was on. It was. But but again, like you're saying, it's just knowing where it's going. And then it's just like, oh, this feels it's I would say this you can still be a fan of true crime and all that stuff and dip out for a little while when reality is hard enough already.

Yes. You know what I mean. Check your check the things that are making you feel OK, because that one I afterwards I was like, nope, not doing that. No, I didn't, I didn't like it. I've been watching sex and Dayle to get my brain out of that realm of, you know, who I'm in love with on socks and dials.

His assistant, oh my God, I'm the best character. I love him. I want to spend personal time with him.

So good. The personality of a guy that stands next to the fucking sex and Dale and listen to his bullshit and be like, cool. All right. Oh, my God. It's just such a beautiful, nuanced show.

It's OK. It's Steve Coogan who, like anything, he does just watch everything he's ever done. He's the best. It's what isn't on BBC probably, or I don't know what we're watching it on. I think we're like maybe it's even sex. I, I bet you that's a Brit boxer, an acorn or some kind of specialty. It's saying I want you to search for, but it's just like you got to care. Absurd and lovely and everything.

Also his neighbor, this is if you are if you are like me and a a what's called a profile, huh. Anglet Anglophile Jesus. That's the British Isles that you love.

Brita filters and fresh. Oh my God. I do my water diesel clean.

I'm such a beautiful child. Obviously I'm I'm a huge one since I don't know the name of it.

So clearly I'm number one. The number one, Stan.

Well, it's like when the hipsters don't call themselves hipsters, you know what I mean? Yeah, I'm so real. I'm just the realist. Anyhow, Saxen deals across the street, neighbors, this British actor named Darren Boyd, who if you he is in every hilarious like those kinds of TV shows. He's the tall, blond kind of dorky guy that's constantly just. Yes. That he's constantly basically being bullied by this accent. Oh, he's so.

Yes.

Who's like in charge of the neighborhood watch and is trying to, like, check on stuff and then what would be a cool guy. It's so good. Yeah. That's such that's been helping us. It has a couple of seasons too, right. Yeah, totally. Our season is totally season when we watch that and after like the vou or Fargo we put on sex and Dale for like a palate cleanser. Yeah. Saxen DLs. Hilarious. Good one I have.

Oh I also. So wait did you just say the VO. Yeah I don't. I dipped out of the val.

It's really slow, it's slow and it's kind of draws on but it's but, but the stuff in it is still interesting so I've stuck with it. OK, it's just a little like one of those. Come on. Like you could have done this in the half as many episodes but you never make your money.

I think I, I had to. I it it started to feel like an acting class to me, it started to feel like when I used to have to take an acting class and I would just kind of sit in the back and just be like everybody seemed everybody was like kind of just kind of overtly sexual and also on the verge of tears.

And like me, he was just perfectly and and like so so volunteering first, like everyone was volunteering for and trying to act like they were walking through honey or whatever the exercise was. And I was just always in the back, like, what am I doing? Like, why do I even like this? So it has that tension of like those types of people that really need something that was them.

They're like they're thespians. They're not actors, Karen. They're thespians, they're artists, but they're artists. And they can cry on command. There's some there's some footage of the the chick who's like because she was in fucking Battlestar Galactica or whatever the fuck bill or whatever, she's really.

And yet it's she seems insufferable and.

Yes. Frebel Yeah.

It's there. You know, it was that was the it was the scene between her and Keith Hornery when she first got taken to volleyball. Oh, my God. And she was so hardcore flirting with him in. Oh my God. I don't know.

I wanted I kissed, you know, something about that makes me want to leave my skin. I cannot withstand watching people flirt like that. It was like flirt poorly. It was like it was uncomfortable for everyone involved. Except she was horror, bizarre, so bizarre. What were they like? Like she was just like she it's like she went in there knowing that's the first time they met. She knew he was the leader and she was like, I'm going to fucking this is going to be my thing and I'm going to let this guy fall in love with me.

And here's how it's fucking done. And I'm going to hold my jacket. Exactly. Hold my jacket while I go make. No, I'm telling you to fall in love with me.

I'm going to flirt with someone who has the sexuality of an old raggedy doll.

You know, what I love is kneepads for a volleyball. What's up here?

It is in a very, very high, lilting voice. That's what I'm looking for.

Oh, he's so gross also, honestly, because, you know, they filmed everything. I just and maybe it's just like because they're trying to tell this other story, but what would it kill them just to explain what the point of any of those groups were. Right. Like what you actually got what the you know, here's the class we took. It's this it said this. We were working on EMS to get us here. I do not understand how they glued this fucking ship together.

It doesn't make sense because they keep saying, like to use for other job our job and to get in our life. But it doesn't seem like they have other jobs or other lives. They're just sitting. And then there's like not that many people there either. So it's like, wouldn't you look around at this thing that's life changing supposedly and be like, well, why are they only eleven people here though? Yeah.

And it's like the same eleven. It's like, like me going to a small Catholic school for junior high and high school. We were just like these people again. Yeah. I can't do it anymore.

Fuck it's it's very.

Yeah you're right. A lot of those people were like I took the class. No, I'm the teacher. It's like that sense is that right there if it's that accessible that now you're the teacher. How brilliant and genius can this program be. Right. You're immediately teaching it.

I want I want there to be decades of work before someone can become a teacher of whatever the fuck I'm learning how yet you in my world, you would have to climb Mount Kilimanjaro.

You would have to do it like it would be scenes from the golden child.

You'd have to go into a cave and jump from pole to pole and then drink the water, make the fire go out. Now that I sat there in class and wrote down my fucking schedule every day and asked if I was allowed to eat certain foods. Master Master, no fucking Vangard, I refuse. Also, I think it's this. If if I if it were up to me to be like right now in sixth grade, we're going to start this, a program where we just start telling kids how to avoid getting sucked into cults.

Just a just a general, like a step by step, almost like a dare class that you would put in. But now we're just doing it for cults because it seems to be coming up a lot now.

So when you have to give people evidence, proof, what's it called collateral. Collateral for anything. Get out. Let's just go for the collateral. Yeah. Tippex, get out.

I mean, give your mysterium out if you want, but don't eat. Don't give them out as collateral.

No, don't get involved. Filled with anything that has the word collateral, including the Tom Cruise movie, don't I'm saying stay away. And then if dieting has something to do with your spiritual program, it doesn't.

You guys. It doesn't. Oh, my God. Speaking of cults, I have a book that I'm listening to that I fucking love that I won't tell you about. So it's it's by this it's a memoir and it's by this guy named Mackell Joli Gillette.

Oh yeah.

I follow him on Twitter. Yeah. So he's the he's the singer of the airborne toxic event and he wrote a memoir and you're like, OK, beautiful man who's in and who's super cool, what's your fucking memoir. And then I started listening to it and it starts him as a kid like five years old, and it starts as his mother sneaks him out of the cult that they're in and then goes from there. Wait, no.

Was he in a different one or was he an Synanon? Yes. He was insane, huh? Yes. That's the one that is out in. It's in Sonoma County. That's right near where I grew up. Yeah. Yeah. So who I want to listen to, that's great.

And it's just and then it goes from there and their lives and the mom and how she kind of still has that mentality. And it's such a fucking good book and that and he reads it obviously in the audio book.

I love it. It's it great. It adds say the title. It's called. Oh, I didn't even say the fucking title, did I? It's called Hollywood Park. Hollywood Park by Mackell JULlETTE. Yeah, it's great. It's great. It's all very 80s too. It's just so good. That sounds amazing. Yeah. Oh I love that love Okkult story. Sure. Love a true story. Love a memoir and then. Yeah, it's great.

Lead us out of a cult. Totally. And how did you get like you had a fucked up childhood. How did you get so successful. You know, like people like to hear that as well.

Yeah. Because that's the key. Yeah. Fucked up.

Being fucked up is the key to getting somewhere. I want to be an interesting person, have a really fucked up child.

Do you want to have ambition burn inside you in a way that you cannot explain.

Oh well it's kind of a fucked up to run and run and run from yourself and constantly try to achieve. That's right. Do yes. That's the that you will you're not fucked up. You're ready to go right. Or work against yourself for so many years by pouring the drugs and alcohol on top of it, because you just are too overwhelmed by that creativity.

And then suddenly one day you figure it all fucking out and you go the successful person, whatever that means to you.

That's right. But before that happens, you have to stew in your own juices. Let's try it sometime. That's right. And really, really feel fucked. And they smell those juices. Oh, I can smell it from here.

Right. So I have been listening to my go to these days is and I've already plugged this podcast, sexy unique podcast. It's Laurer.

I always I'm afraid I'm saying her last name on Shane hols, I believe, and my friend Carrie O'Donnell, they just started covering their recapping season one of Rock of Love. Oh, my God. Bret Michaels dating show on VH one started that at the very beginning of comedy, the show Holy Shit episode. So, yeah, they're so the two of them talking about is so hilarious. It's again, my favorite when I don't have to actually suffer through reality TV, but I can hear about it.

I guess my favorite we literally tried ten minutes in the beginning. Let's try this again and couldn't watch it. It's just so uncomfortable. But I'd listen to that hearing people do impressions of the people, the things that they said. It's it's totally different to delete everything. So, yeah, if you like reality TV or like recap shows or whatever, those guys and also I, I belong to their patrons. So I get bonus episodes and just the stuff they talk about in between, you know, just processing.

Yeah. The life that we're going through right now, it's very helpful to me. I listen to them a lot in the morning. It's like my you know, they're my podcast fans. Sure. Yeah. Wait, you have other podcast friends besides me?

They're my they're the ones that they don't know. I'm their podcast friend. You're my literal, right. God, it should be awesome. Exactly right. Catch up. Let's do it, guys. We have a big announcement in a minute, but first.

Oh yeah, a good one tees it up. But first, we want to tell you that we have some research going on right now. So the design.

This is terrible. Keep going. Was so awesome.

And you guys loved it so much that we put out tank tops there on the website now and then we also have mugs. So it says this is terrible, keep going, which is like so perfect for these days.

And if so many ways it's timely and yet eternal. I think you buy this. Shirt and it pays off in the meantime, and then, of course, the long run is entirely covered. I don't know if you can say that about just any shirt or really any shirt at all, but this one. That's true. That's true. Maybe hennelly in the network moving over network news. This podcast will kill you. Just released their season finale. Season three finale on Tuesday.

And they're talking all about birth control. Very timely and topical. Yeah. Or so that sounds fucking awesome. I want to. Yeah. Let those ladies walk you through some birth control info. Yeah. And then also the fall line is they interviewed Monica Kason from SIU E Missing Persons Center about their missing persons search effort. So that's just a really interesting thing for people who are into true crime and into missing persons person cases thinking like that.

Yeah, that's great. OK, big announcement.

It's big announcement time now. And we we have been talking about waiting for this announcement for so long that it's just surreal that it's finally here.

I can't I'm it's so it's a relief that it's finally here. It feels so good. You guys, we are about to announce two new podcasts that are coming to exactly right.

This first one is a podcast. It's going to be hosted by our friends Melinda Teruko and Danielle Henderson, two hilarious and very talented and very brilliant ladies. Molly is the programmer on Turner Classic Movies, and she has been for the past, I think, seventeen years. Danielle Henderson is a TV writer. She's hosted a bunch of stuff. You also might know her because she invented the feminist Ryan Gosling meme. That is one of the most genius things I've ever seen.

So you might know her from that as well. The two of them have gotten together, Millie and Danielle, and they have made a podcast called I Saw What You Did. And it is a it's a movie. It's basically a movie podcast where the two of them, every week they're going, they basically, quote unquote, program a double feature for you. They pick two movies. It's always a theme. So it'll be like neighborhood creeps or great seventies apartments or hysterical women who have every right to be hysterical.

And basically the two of them watch the movie and break it down and talk about it being kind of the the film expert and Danielle being a film fan and just a person that likes to watch movies. So it's really hilarious. You know, they're women of color. It's just a it's just a really cool new way, a new discussion on watching movies. And we're super, super excited to be hosting it. I think it's going to be groundbreaking in some ways, you know, and it premieres on November 10th.

So keep an eye out for it, OK? And then that second podcast that we're going to announce today is called Tenfold More Wicked or so frickin excited about this. Oh, my God. It's hosted by author and journalist Kate Winkler Dawson.

So each season, Kate's going to blend her her incredible storytelling skills and her investigative journalism skills to present a new, gruesome or spooky crime from the past, like pre nineteen thirties, which is such a cool time period later, seasons are going to touch on how crimes led to the insanity defense in criminal trials or highlight why body like cadavers are so important in med school and like how that happened. So it's going to be frickin awesome. Obviously, the fact that she's both an investigative journalist and a storyteller is just going to make for an incredible podcast.

Yeah. If you have read any of her books, Kate Dawson, she is an unbelievable crime historian and she's written a book. I've read all of her books just from from knowing her, from working with her. And it's she's such a talented storyteller. And her doing a podcast. I mean, it is she does amazing work. And so that comes out tenfold more wicked on November. Twenty third. And I saw what you did on November 10th.

Oh my God.

We had two new podcasts on the podcast. You guys were so stoked for a real boy now and there's more to come. There's there's more to come on this late. But those are the first two of of a new bunch of new shows.

So finally, you know, I know we've waited so long. Yeah. You thought we were lying to you. We weren't lying to you. We were no fucking lies. Not about that. Not about that. Oh, sure. True. Right. Anything else you want to touch upon or, you know, feel or fondle upon or.

I mean, not really because there hasn't been that much going on except for. It feels like there's a bunch going on, so there's a strange malaise, like a laziness that it is going hand in hand with procrastination or I just never feel like doing anything.

Nope, never, ever. Why would you. It's the it's nothing happens. Yeah, that's that's rough. Yeah. Stay low. Here's my my advice. If anyone wants it, stay low to the ground and cool to the touch. Stay out of direct sunlight.

You know, like I keep doing all this stage, try to get pale because you might as well they are or at least say it's OK that I'm doing it. Oh yeah. OK, maybe like a vampire low to the ground, zero dark. I'm just saying, last night for dinner, I did have a giant pretzel and there's no worlds where I should be ordering a giant pretzel and eating it.

It's no, it's fine. I got a giant pretzel. But did you have anything else? Is the important thing.

If I did have some salad, then you're fine, OK? It was really it doesn't matter if you only had a giant pretzel that would be saying this pretzel could have fed a giant, the Jolly Green Giant, if it was so chicken.

Yeah, but we're working on it day by day. That's right, we are. Where else can we do? There's really no choice in the matter that we don't have choice. No therapy that's so important. Do that to do that. That's good. That's important. My mom texts me. I love you for the first time and it's first time she said it. And months and months. Wow. That's a positive thing. That's very good. Oh yeah.

Well, no, I'm just thinking, you know. You know what I think it was. Go ahead, sir. Well, no, no. I'm just thinking with this swirl of how psychotic pause politics are getting, I think there's a lot of people who if they could just get, like, touch a buzzer and just be out free and clear, they would be, oh, you know what they're in so far.

That's right. That's so funny that you equated it with that, because I did, too. I saw that she wrote, I love you and miss you because we're not really speaking.

And I thought, oh, man, I bet I thought to myself, how on earth did she, in her Jewish mind, make proud boys stand back and stand by, OK? Yes. And in my mind, I'm like, she couldn't. I love you and miss you. Is an opening of a door. Yes. I realized this week that I had a heavy hitter, and once I got to page nine on my story and had more to talk about, I was like, Listen, Karen, I'll go this week if you want.

And you see how good I was, like the kids that I learned.

And I know I need a week to learn how to roller skate. So next week. That's right.

You can really seize your time, as you will not do as I did not do having nine pages in a story. It just brought me so back to tour. Like, I think I'm having a thing now where like now the memories of touring are so sweet and wonderful.

And every one I think of is like, remember that fuckin hotel in Toronto that was I think Japanese came to that. It was unbelievable. Hotel, the one I just tagged, the one I missed our fucking call time. And because I was saying, yes, it was gorgeous, it was unbelievable. But they're typing up my story and going to do the insert page number and making like nine like where we would say to each other.

And you had said to me before, like, can can you not do like a story that long? I'm like, I know. I'm sorry.

And you try to cut it down, but like, what do you take out? Yeah. Because you're like, I'm just trying to get the good story going.

But it happens because, you know, then I do stuff like show you old men with tomato plants and stuff like that, which I'm like, don't take that out, I'll take something else out, take out the horrible facts of humanity and what people do to each other.

Man with tomato plants. So this has become eleven pages with sixteen font. Perfect in Georgia. Font of course, because that's Maloja. Hey.

So because this is an important story and maybe people haven't heard about it because it takes place in Australia.

So I've been following this case for a couple of years now because it's been a cold case, which, you know, I'm obsessed with.

And it's been going on for over 20 years. And I wanted to wait until there was a resolution which a couple of years ago something happened. And this last month, in September, finally, there's kind of been a resolution. Oh, well, so it's no longer a cold case. So it's like it's Perth's. It's so it's takes place in Perth and Australia. It's kind of like their Golden State killer or BTK, where it just completely changed the area and how people live their lives and raise their children.

It just it shook everyone up. We got yelled at by a lot of people when we were on tour in Australia for not going to Perth 100 percent. We there were people who drove from Perth. They were mad where they were like, look, it's a stop. You're supposed to go to Perth. You can't you can't drive to Perth. I don't I don't know. Yeah. Let me I'll tell you all about it. This is the Claremont serial killer.

Oh, wow. Oh, yes. OK, amazing. Yes. I don't know how many times I said to Jay, please don't let Karen do the Claremont serial killer. I've been working on it. I've been like I had docs and shit. I don't let her do it. It's mine.

I told him once a month, every month on the first George texted me to find it's hers. Don't fucking suggest it to her, please. I promised her finally going to do it. I got information from a Today.com. There's an article by Heather McNeil, Newsa News by Angie Rafeal News.com, Ayubi by Candace Sutton. There's a Clairemont The Trial Podcast or Whole Claremont's series podcast.

You can listen to ABC Australia, Andrea Meiwes and Seven News in Australia, an article by Duncan McNab. And there's is there's so many great journalists that have been following this for decades. And so there's a lot to read about it. So let me tell you about Claremont. Perth is the capital of Western Australia and it has a population of almost two million people. It's so it is the most isolated city in the world. Is it really?

Yeah, which is why we go there, many say and me saying driving. They would have had to have flown, they would have I they would have driven through the Australian outback like fucking kangaroos and shit and fucking brush land like I don't know.

And red dirt and cabbage. Are you ready sir. They hate me for saying that but it it's a remote. It's just that one part.

Yeah. It's teeny tiny. It takes five hours to fly there. It's the most isolated city in the world. It's got the Indian Ocean on one side and the Australian outback on the other.

She's it's really cool. If you zoom if you look at it on a map and start zooming out, it's it's like here's it's like if Los Angeles was here, it's basically Los Angeles to Houston to to get to Adelaide. So the next big city is Adelaide. And it's it's a 30 hour drive. OK, so that's how isolated it is. Can I just say. Did what if you lived in Perth, this is this might be what I do when I retire because, you know, I really, genuinely, really loved Australia.

I'm a very I wrote spiritual way. Yeah. I wrote It's a beautiful fuckin city. And I wrote there's a chance I might move there on November 4th.

As a matter of fact, when they take us. I hope they take us because Canada won't take us anymore. Well, the mayor of Perth and please, we're really fun at parties. I was just thinking it would be fun to move to a house that's right on the edge of the outback. So you're the place that the first place that the man dying of thirst crawls to out of the outback. If he does make it at all, he's knocking on your door first just to be there for the stories.

That's a good one. So L.A. to Houston, basically, its sister cities are Houston, as a matter of fact, and San Diego. So you can imagine it's a beautiful place, like some of the most expensive houses in Australia are in Perth. I think it's kind of like a secret famous person place to go because Australians don't give a shit that you're like, oh, there's a famous person who cares. Like, that's kind of where they go to just live their lives.

You know what they do. Australians, they'll even if you're a famous person, they'll tell you to throw a shrimp on the barbie to your face.

That's what they don't give a shit.

They're very casual people as a nation. So it's super isolated. And Claremont is a suburb of Perth. It's located on the north bank of the Swan River. It's really charming and upscale. The main district of Claremont is known as an affluent local hub. So it has a bunch of cute boutiques like think of Beverly Hills boutiques and restaurants and pubs and bars. And it's like the young nightlife scene, but it's upscale. So it's it's kind of a lovely little place.

It's safe. It's a close knit community. Australian reporter Alison Phan describes it as the heart of the gold triangle of western suburbs. Basically, it's the kind of place where you don't expect anything bad to happen.

Of course, that is until the mid nineties, within a span of 15 months, when three young women mysteriously disappear right off the street.

So 18, 18 year old Sarah Spears is the first to disappear. So she had moved to Perth after finishing high school nearby. She goes to secretarial school. She gets a job as a receptionist. She, like all of these stories, go. She's lovely. She makes friends easily. She's close with her family. She's responsible. She is very comfortable in her new city life. She lives with her sister and her dad describes her as the type of person who met everyone with a glow.

And friends said she was just filled with laughter. On the night of January. Twenty seven, nineteen ninety six, she's out with her friends visiting the clubs and she leaves club.

They Bayview at the centre of Claremont at around two a.m. by herself at six a.m. she calls a taxi from the public phone booth and there's a recording of her calling the taxi. And she's seen waiting alone by three eyewitnesses who also mentioned seeing an unidentified car stopping where she's waiting. And then when the taxi arrives at two on nine a.m., she's gone. She's not there. So by the next day, her disappearance are like automatically alarms friends and family who know she's responsible and reliable wouldn't just take off.

So even though there was like usually a waiting period for missing missing people to be taken seriously, her friends and family kind of made it happen because they were so freaked out. So there's a massive, massive public attention. Immediately, her friends hand out missing posters all over Claremont and it becomes a major investigation because of her family and friends. They passed out twenty thousand fliers. There's two thousand posters all over Perth. Fifty buses have her picture on them.

A missing persons flyer like you couldn't go anywhere and not see her face. So people knew about it immediately. The task force is set up within 48 hours to look into her case, but there's really no evidence like no one saw her disappear. And so the trail goes cold.

Did it it so it was in January. So then we get to June, June six, nineteen ninety six. Twenty three year old Jane Rimmer is with friends for a night out in Claremont, the same area she's described as bubbly and funny. She's really genuine and she's really easy to get along with.

All of the pictures of these women are just you'd be friends with all of them.

You know, she is a live in nanny and the two young children, she nannies adore her. She's friends with the mother. Even though there's a big age difference, she's just a really easy to get along with person. And in fact, the mother had spoken to her. They talked on the phone for like four hours a couple of days before, and an even discussed the disappearance of Sarah Spears. So Jane's friends tell the police that they had hit a couple different nightspots, spots.

Including club Bayview, where Sarah had last hung out and there's a long line at one of the clubs, so Jane's friends decide to take a taxi home, but Jane wants to stay behind. CCTV had been installed in Claremont after Sarah had disappeared and actually caught footage of Jane standing outside the club called the Continental at 12 before I am. So it's it's like busy. There's people hanging out outside and smoking and, like, lively. It's not like it's a desolate area.

She seems like she's waiting for someone like maybe a taxi. She's leaning on a pole. She's laughing. The camera catches her talking to an unknown man. She's just laughing with him. It pans away. And when it pans back, she's fucking gone. I'm fifty five days later. And actually, sorry that CCTV footage isn't released until 2008. Why? Because they wanted to keep I don't know if they wanted to keep things under wraps. They sent it to NASA to try to get more foot, more information and they couldn't and they just kept it under wraps, which is weird.

So 55 days later, on August 3rd, a family is out for the day in the bushland of Weller at about twenty five miles south of Claremont. So the mother, she's looking at these what are called death lilies. She sees the biggest one she's ever seen. So she kind of walks through the brush to look at it and she feels something brushing the back of her leg. This feels like fate in a weird, creepy way. She turns to see what was she was feeling and she sees a tiny foot sticking out of some brush.

And it is she had found the naked body of Jane hidden under some brush.

Whoa. Yeah. Yeah. What are the odds? That's crazy. It's just creepy. It's horrible. Her remains are too decomposed to confirm a cause of death. But an autopsy does show that she had a prominent injury on her neck that's consistent with a knife wound. So it's reported to the media that a. OK, so then the same day on a road less than a mile from where the Jane's body was found, they the investigators find a pocket knife and it had a telecom logo on it.

So telecom, which I'm going to call it, turns into this company called Telstra. So I'm going to call it that from now on. So Telstra is Australia's largest telecommunications company, basically like AT&T or Verizon, like phone lines, Internet, they do all that shit. So the knife was issued as the standard equipment to Telstra workers. What the fuck is it doing out in the middle of nowhere?

So several witnesses who live in the area tell the Texas detectives they heard a woman screaming and shouting the night Jane went missing.

I know. Like, why call it what one man says he heard a woman screaming, quote, Leave me alone.

Let me out of here and seize a car, drive away in the direction of the spot where Jane's body was found. Another couple closer to the crime scene. Remember blood curdling cries that's stopped mid mid scream. Oh, guys, what the I mean, do you call the police at that moment? They didn't call it in. No, I don't think it was discovered after the. Yeah. So you don't want to be an alarmist, but those sound like reasons to call the police might is just to check it out.

Right. Right. Yeah. Just to make sure you're right in. Not freaking out. Exactly.

Then it turns out that on the night that Sarah Spears had gone missing, witnesses had also heard blood curdling screams less than five miles away in the Mosman Park area between two thirty a.m. and three a.m., which were, quote, consistent with a female in distress. But remember, Sarah hadn't been found. Her body hasn't been found, but it was in that area.

So one of the witnesses who heard the screams said that when they looked in the direction of the screams, they saw a white or cream colored car that was parked on the wrong side of the street. And the screams were heard only about 20 minutes after Sarah was last spotted outside the club, seemingly waiting for a taxi. So after Jane Reimer's body is found, Western Australian police launched what they call the macro task force to investigate the disappearance of both Jane and Sarah.

And there's massive publicity in the city where women are normally relatively safe. And then I was thinking about like, well, why don't leave a bar alone and that sort of thing. But it seems like it was a bustling area that they were in. And they I walked home a million fucking times.

And now you think about walking home from bars in like Silverlake is probably more dangerous than walking home from a bar in this area.

And it's like it's my I'm familiar. This is my neighborhood. Why would I feel unsafe in my neighborhood?

You don't even consider. And there's. That that's a bummer. The thing that is very sinister and upsetting to me is people being around, people disappearing when there's people around is very scary, definitely and very like, you know, because that means they were targeted, they were targeted and the person who took them has no fear to.

Yeah. And then I was thinking I had a plan. When I'm drinking, I kind of like get giddy and I'm like, I'm just going to walk home and listen to music and I'm happier. And so I'm just like, I'm just going to walk, you know, it's just such a normal thing to do. Then nine months later, in the early morning hours of March 15th, nineteen ninety seven, Ciara Glennon, a 27 year old from Mosman Park, also disappeared from the Claremont area.

Ciara was a lawyer and spoke fluent Japanese. So very smart, she had come home to Perth after a year of backpacking overseas. She came back to be a bridesmaid in her sister's wedding. That was happening in a week and to return to her job at a law firm like Sarah and Jane. She's out with friends and heading to the Continental nightclub when she decides to make her way home. She kind of hadn't wanted to go out that night. She did anyway.

So she leaves her friends early. So there's three men at a bus stop. They ccra walking south along Stirling Highway at around twelve, thirty a.m. and I don't think this is like a desolate highway. I feel like it's almost like Wilshire Boulevard where it's just like the main street, you know. Right. So they see her interacting with someone in a light colored vehicle that had stopped for her and then she disappeared. And so those witnesses there, they become known as the Burger Boys.

It's these three dudes, Troy Bond, Frank McElroy and Brandon Gray. They're sitting together at a bus stop eating burgers. And they had noticed a newer model, Holden Commodore station wagon, which looks like an 80s Volvo or Honda station wagon type of thing. Mm hmm. They see it pull up alongside a woman and but they didn't see her. They see her talking to the driver through the window, but they didn't continue to watch to see if she got in.

Although another witness says he did see her get in the car, then she disappears. Ciara is described as a strong in spirit and courageous. And so her father tells reporters that his daughter, a fighter and she's going to fight whoever took her. But sadly, 19 days later, on April 3rd, her semi clothed body is found by a bushwalker who's out looking for marijuana. And having been she had been discarded about twenty five miles north of Claremont.

And the cause of death is noted as being consistent with a neck injury. So we later find out that it looks like, you know, knife wounds to the same M.O.. Yeah, and they're also placed in the exact same way except mirror images with, like, their arm up. And, you know, during the autopsy, it's discovered that Ciara had indeed fought back. In fact, she had fought her killer so hard that one of her thumbnails is partially torn off and she has her attacker's DNA under her fingernails now.

Yes. But of course, it's too early. You know, it's ninety seven. There's no real testing on DNA at that point. So after the disappearance of Jane Rimmer, the Western Australian police had set up the macro task force. And to look into the two similar cases, they kind of knew automatically that they're all related when Ciara disappears as well.

Police confirm that they're searching for a serial killer and the Western Australian government offers a two hundred and fifty thousand dollars reward, which is the largest ever offered in the state at the time.

They say the serial killer has a preferred victim profile, young woman between 18 and twenty seven with small build, fair complexion, intoxicated and alone. And it does seem that they and I don't know if all of them, but some witnesses said that they did seem intoxicated, which is, you know, it's just like they're so targeted at that point. It's so awful. Yeah. Yeah. So this case becomes fucking huge.

It grabs a ton of public attention. It's basically like Ted Bundy level attention after the Florida Chi Omega murders. The whole town is fucking terrified. Or the BTK like basically that someone among us in our small community is committing these horrendous acts and people are terrified. So Detective Inspector Paul Furguson leads the inquiry and he has more than one hundred investigators on the case. There are several leads, but the strongest is the CCTV footage of Jane Rimmer and the unidentified man it sent to NASA.

You know, there's nothing they can they can't enhance it in any way. And it's released in 2008 because police feared that releasing it would have hindered the investigation. But it's like, baby, someone will recognize the way that person is standing or walk. It's just you you never fucking know.

Yeah, I mean. We think, though, of those it it's when it happens in a place where it never happens, when it happens in a place where people always say it could never happen here, the investigation, unless they call people in right away, which people are learning to do now. But oftentimes it's that it's that decision making. Yeah, they've been criticized a lot about the investigation, and it's partly because they kept so much secret, you know, and they kept so much to themselves that people didn't think they were actually doing anything.

And in some cases, maybe they weren't following through as well as they should have. And maybe the public's help could have done something. But in others, it's just, you know, they were keeping everything really under wraps. The man in the videos never identified, no evidence is found that link him. And police also use a woman to re-enact Siara Glennon's night. So they basically dress her in what she was wearing. Exactly. A woman who looks like her, has her walked the same path and go to the same bars, but nothing pans out.

The initial focus of the investigation centers on the unidentified vehicle seen at the two location.

And also so basically, I think what we were all thinking is taxi drivers. It's got to be some. Yes. Taxi driver, some fake taxi.

You know, I think everyone independent, some kind of independent cab thing of like it's just me and my guns and these weird sign. Yeah, totally. Which I fucking got.

And then those before I've gotten in one of those, those like every time I'm at at JFK in New York, it's you just do it. Who cares. It's New York.

There's a million of them you way you're out in the middle of the street and you get in whatever fucking car stops for you. Yeah. You just get annoyed. You just want to get inside to get up the street. That's right. Yeah. You know, they're ten minutes away from home. They're intoxicated. Everyone gets in a taxi. It's normal, it's safe. And if they have this thing to do is to get in the car.

It's the smart it's the smart choice to make. Also, it's that idea of somebody sitting in a in a car with some kind of like a dispatch radio or some kind of a it's spying on thing where if they hear that the call goes out, they go. But that's just like this could this could also be me listening to other podcasts about this. But that's my that's what it makes. It leads me to think about. That's a really interesting one.

Wow. Like someone who got fired for they couldn't be a cab driver anymore. Right, because they attacked some other young woman. You are not their father.

Oh, you're a parallel. OK, you're not.

Yeah, but you're the mayor, Karen White. You've ruined this for me. OK, so taxi drivers, of course. So thousands of taxi drivers licensed in Western Australia are fingerprinted and DNA tested, which was really expensive at the time. So they actually the investigators were criticized for that as well. They find seventy eight drivers with significant criminal histories. And because of this, it doesn't lead them to the killer. But standards for eligibility for taxi drivers are raised and good.

Yeah, great. And these seventy drivers are licensed and they're stricter standards apply to verify that decommission taxis are properly stripped of official insignia and equipment. Right. Sorry, can I just say this? What we should be saying, though, about and whoever is in charge, because this might not be the police, but the fact that the one young woman went missing and they put up CCTV cameras the next day, that is how things should work. Definitely, you know what I mean?

If something happens and while they're doing all this other stuff, it's like now what would have been different to make this better and like not so horrible cameras and then just getting it done? Yeah, that's impressive that they did that that quickly and that they then did this investigation, like, found, you know, all the while they were like, yeah, at least they had something going on that was positive and getting the DNA prevented, even though it's expensive and it's not normal at the time they still did it.

So they had it on hand in case in the future something was able to match it, you know? Yeah. So though the murders had stopped at this point over the years, the macro task force is met with both praise and criticism for its handling of the case. A lot of information is suppressed from the public. So one of the controversial tactics that macro use was sending questionnaires to over a hundred and ten persons of interest. That included questions like, are you the killer?

So, yeah, really, they also relied heavily on international experts. They had a lie detector machine imported from another country. And this might be the most controversial of them all. One task force officer attempted to offer sorry, one task force officer accepted an offer. From convicted serial killer David Birney to insist the investigation. So David, Bernie, he's from Perth as well.

I did think I did him. I didn't. Or you did. Yeah, I did an episode ninety four. It's the Moorehouse murders. Remember, there was that Hounds of Love movie that I talked about that had, like, portrayed it that was so fucking creepy and about him and his wife kidnaps women and then burying them.

Yeah. So that one was fucking dark. And so they went to this monster in the same way. Remember, Ted Bundy was like offering to help them solve shit. And you're like, sit down, motherfucker.

Well, yeah. And what can they what can they what can he offer to help, you know, thoughts, thoughts and feelings? I don't know. They have nothing to do in jail. But unless they know the person or they know the area, they know that that would be a different thing. But was this guy just like, here's my theory? Yeah. Here's how this person probably works. Here's what his mind is like. Here's what kind of person he is.

Here's what you know. But which if they already have a profile of this person, then they don't really need that guy. They have actually professional people doing it. Not a fucking serial killer.

Yeah, it's not this isn't Silence of the Lambs. And you're not Dr. Hannibal Lecter. That actually was an expert in this before he. Right. And knew some people. The killer, too, right. Yeah. Yeah. OK, so good point. Yeah. Right. That's right. He was a patient. Yeah he was, he was the boyfriend of a patient. That's right. How dare you.

School. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Oh I. Well you're right. I know you're well you're 100 percent right. What was the patient's name. They went in his garage and it was so I know not Bob was it. Bob was here.

He gave him the fake name Bob. Yes. That's Hannibal. No, Bob was the name of the fake name of the the boy and Buffalo Bill was the boyfriend. Yeah. So that's Bob because he gave a fake name and then the boyfriend's name is the patient.

Seen anything for us.

Characters that listed on Wikipedia have to run. Well that's bullshit. Hold on a second. Because he says it, he says it in the scene before she goes to yourself. Your self-storage look inside yourself storage.

Let me take a bunch of that. Yeah, I think so. Not all of it. Not all of it. Plastic. Speaking of profile, due to the nature of the killings, experts suggest that the Claremont killer was probably a single white male. Twenty five to thirty five lived in the area, appeared trustworthy, organized social and probably well educated. Detective Dan Detective Dan Kaplan replaces Ferguson as the case leader and finds the first suspect in the killings, a man named Lance Williams.

So Lance Williams is forty one year old public servant. He lives with his parents at Cottesloe, which is close to the hotel where both Spears and Rimmer had spent some of the their evening on the night they disappeared. But it seems like his biggest fault is that he seems to become obsessed with the case, you know, which is always a red fucking flag. He even occasionally drives around Claremont late at night to conduct his own mini investigation into the murders, he says.

And he even offers women, women rides home, he says, because he's worried about them. So one time he circles the area more than 30 times. And of course, this raises red flags for the investigators. And they have a young female officer dress up for the night, for a night out and act as bait. And he does offer the undercover officer a lift and he's immediately arrested. So on February 5th, nineteen ninety eight, he's questioned for like 12 to 17 hours, it seems, and then released.

And he remains the chief suspect for the most of the next decade and is placed under intense scrutiny. With police open. They openly follow him and to and from work every day for years. His family home is raided a few times. Listening devices are installed in his office, one of one one which once crashed through the ceiling onto his desk because they were the cops were spying on him, trying to find out if he was the guy.

And so in his office, they think he's going to admit to it somehow. And so they put a recording device in there and it fucking was to the ceiling or the ceiling on to his desk. Oh, my God. He maintains his innocence. There's his innocence during the six different interviews he has with police. But the public finds out his identity. So they also fucking go after him as well. Of course, the thing is, he wasn't like.

He was obsessed with the case and he did want to make sure women got home safe. He's finally declared no longer a person of interest in two thousand nine. Oh, wow, he didn't fucking do it. And Detective, he's a weirdo, but he didn't do it.

Detective Caporn And we're all weirdos like this again. But I think. Yeah, but I think the difference that difference of and it almost feels like there's a there's a naiveté to it of going in offering people rides home, puts you squarely in an area you should not be in if you're. Yeah, dude.

Well, they were right to suspect him and and interview him and keep an eye and keep him in as a suspect if they couldn't rule him out. But Detective Caporn is criticized for having tunnel vision when it came to him as a suspect and just focusing on him. And Lance Williams dies in twenty eighteen of cancer at sixty one years old.

So, all right, well, it turns out that the reason Lance was no longer a person of interest in 2009 is because that year forensic scientists are finally able to properly test the DNA that have been found under Sciarra Glennon's fingernails. And they recover an unknown male's DNA profile. And I mean, it went they went through so much they don't get into about how they were able to extract DNA. And it's these incredible scientists who painstakingly, like, fucking made sure that they they really wanted to solve this case.

So when they compared the DNA to the DNA of other sexual assault cases in the area, they matched another unknown male's DNA from an unsolved abduction and rape that had occurred in nineteen ninety five. That was a year before the string of murders began. So in that case, a 17 year old girl is walking home after a night out in the same Claremont venue from the same Claremont venue where Sarah Spears would later leave a year later. And she had been grabbed from behind, bound and gagged, and then put into a van and she was driven to a cemetery.

She's fucking dragged through the dark. She's raped twice, brutally raped the whole time. She's like thinking she's going to die. She purposely doesn't look at them in the face thinking maybe that'll give her a chance to live if she doesn't see his face. And amazingly, he leaves her alive, but obviously very fucking wounded. And it's so awful. So she survives the assault. She goes straight to a nearby hospital where her rapist's DNA is recovered. And they're also able to find fibers from this case.

That also on Jane and Sciarra, which are rare microscopic blue polyester fibers, as well as fibers that match what would have been in a Holden Commodore station wagon. Oh, right. But again, it doesn't lead to a suspect. So they have a way to match all these cases and maybe they'll get more. And, you know, they have more information, but they still don't have a person that, you know, it's all unknown male DNA.

So it doesn't lead to a suspect. Nor does the report by a security guard who saw a Telstra van leaving the area when the 17 year old girl had been raped at around four a.m.. Detectives do request a list of Telstra employees. Remember that knife that was found at the crime scene who were assigned vans? But that doesn't lead them anywhere either. They they check it and can't find anyone of interest. So years go by until investigators decide to go through old evidence boxes from other similar crimes in the nearby area and test those for DNA.

So that leads to an evidence box that had just been hanging out from an unsolved nineteen eighty eight Huntington Dale sexual assault case. So in nineteen eighty eight, there was a series of prowler incidents in the Huntington Dale area, which is about 30 minutes from Claremont, and they were dubbed the Huntington Prowler. So there are reports of women's intimates being stolen from clotheslines as well as a peeping Tom and someone trying to break into houses. So residents claim to have seen a figure wearing nighties, women's nyos, dressing gowns and on one occasion a pair of women's underpants over his head.

So it's kind of like Golden State killer where he's just like he steals it and then he puts it on in some way.

Yeah. And it seems like he wants people to see him in it almost like that. When he leaves, he runs out and that's what he's got on his head. Yeah. Wherever. Yeah, something like that. And so then in February of nineteen eighty eight, an unidentified man breaks into the home, into a home and attempts to sexually assault a sleeping 18 year old girl. But she's able to fight him off and that attacker runs off and leaves behind.

He had been wearing a silk kimono that seems like he had taken off a clothesline and that's left behind and that has a semen stain on it. So in that evidence box, they find that it sits in the evidence box for twenty eight years. Well, until finally they're able to test the DNA on it and it matches the other unknown male DNA from all those cases. But still, they don't know who the Huntingdale prowler was. So they still just have a connection with all the cases.

But no identity of a killer.

But man, so insane. This this net is widening of of what this guy has been doing and where he's been doing it.

And it's got to feel like you're so close, you're so close, you find one more case that matches and you're like, well, we got to find it this know. And it's still it's got to be so frustrating. Yeah.

So what finally ties it all together or finally leads to what ties it all together isn't DNA, but fingerprints. So during a separate Huntington prowler, break-In, the attacker had left behind his fingerprints and palm print on a sliding door. And those parents are finally run through the system when they're looking through old evidence boxes and a match is found. So it's found to this case where there is a known attacker. So it's in a in a recent interview with 60 Minutes, a woman named Wendy Davis.

She's now in her 70s. She was a mother of three and a social worker in nineteen ninety.

And she oh my God, it's just such a heart wrenching moving interview.

This woman is incredible. She was a social worker working at her desk at at Hollywood Hospital about 30 minutes from Huntington.

Dale, in nineteen ninety. When a man comes into her office and asks if he can use the restroom that's right by her desk and she glances at the man and waves him in to use the bathroom like go ahead. Not thinking much of it since the man is wearing a uniform of the telecommunications company that's working on the hospital's phone lines that week.

Oh, so she allows him to use the bathroom without much thought. But pretty quickly, he comes out, grabs her from behind, puts a rag over her mouth and fucking yanks her out of her chair and starts pulling her into the bathroom.

And she's like, I don't want to die. Like, I freaked out. I don't want to die. She starts fucking fighting back. I mean, she tells this whole story in the 60 Minutes. I think it's an Australian once you've to find it online. But she starts kicking and fighting. She's able to turn herself around and starts fucking wailing on his shins with her fucking high heels. And so he stops and she says, just as suddenly as the attack started, it stops.

And she says the man seems to come out of a trance almost and starts to apologize. And he's held down until police arrive. And on him, they find cable ties in his pocket. And the man is a twenty one year old Telstra employee named Bradley Robert Edwards. And somehow he is only charged with common assault.

It's called so. And they say in the 60 Minutes that you can get a charge of common assault by like yelling a curse word across the street at someone. It's just, oh, it's they don't acknowledge the sexual motivation of the attack. You know, it's not attempted rape or attempted kidnapping or, you know, her free will being attacked. It's none of that. He only gets two years probation. He doesn't even get fired from his fucking job at Telstra.

Right. Oh, jeez. Despite attack. A woman on the job he does on the job, on the job. Instead, a supervisor goes to speak with the victim and tries to assure her that Edwards is a good kid who's just under a ton of stress, you know, so.

Yeah, so OK. Finally, though, this leads to the killer in December. Twenty sixteen, the prints from the Huntingdale Prowler incident are tested and they match the prints to the Hollywood Hospital case belonging to Bradley Robert Edwards. So they finally have a suspect, but they still need his DNA to match the DNA of the unknown killer. So.

All right, who's who is this asshole? Well, it turns out that he's still working for Telstra. He had enjoyed a good career pay raises. You know, all this shit moved up and ranks with the company. He's forty six years old. He's tall and like a large, well-built man with dark hair. He looks like a normal dad. This fucking piece of shit, he's got like cropped hair, clean cut polo shirts. You wouldn't think twice.

Yeah, he's because he's and he's hiding in plain sight. He's a totally honest I mean, they don't look like monsters. The monsters don't look like monsters.

He's an unassuming dude. He had been married twice. He has a stepdaughter, although he and his second wife are having issues. And on the weekends for years, he had worked for like athletic clubs.

The Belmont Little Athletics clubs were like, you know, like for us to be AYSO. I think we're just like kids playing sports. I'm sure he had been on the committee as a records officer and by 2007 he had become the club's president. So he's not it's not some creep in the shadows. He's fucking out there living a stand up life. John Wayne Gacy style SHACKLEY and he becomes the club's president. There's even pictures of him in the newspaper receiving an award and stuff.

Wow. And it's more of the usual. Unassuming everyone couldn't believe it. He helped his neighbors with computer like, you know, the usual thing.

We got an email from a listener who wrote in about him.

And then so she was she was friends with the family. And so as a kid, she says, quote, He was always really nice and charming. And the things that sticks out to me the most is he was also one of the most sympathetic people I've ever met in my life. So he used he used to drive this little girl and another little girl home every day. And she said, because of my religious background, I'm not supposed to eat beef, but I love it.

So when he used to pick me up, he used to get me McDonald's cheeseburgers. It's so spine chilling to me that a serial killer bought me food and I ate it when I was alone in the car with him.

And that's from Swigert.

Wow. I know, right? Yeah. She got driven around by a serial killer. That's nice and charming. Sympathetic, yes. Yeah. So a surveillance operation begins and within days, detectives grab a Sprite bottle that Edwards had thrown away at a movie theater where he watched a movie with his stepdaughter. And when the bottles tested, it's a match. And so finally, after twenty years, with all the evidence being tied together because the DNA found under Sciarra Glennon's fingernails, because she fucking fought back, it's all tied together.

And this the Claremont serial killer is finally caught. But, you know, you think about this, the common assault charge doesn't get fired from his job.

It's maybe if if things had been different, some of these cases wouldn't even have happened.

You know, if he had been treated like the second, if someone to go in and fight for his fucking right, his right to assault women and because he was stressed out, that should just be ignored. Yeah. Hey, guess what? Sorry, because I'm sure that person heartily regrets even even being involved in that. But that was a massive that was a mistake built on misogyny. That was a mistake built on nothing can happen to the boys and the girls just complain a lot.

And that's fucking bullshit and crazy.

That person should be. I mean, I can't imagine living with myself after that and then.

Oh, no, that's terrible. I'm sure they I mean, and it's so sad because in this interview, this woman feels all the guilt. You know, a woman who was attacked is like, I should have done more, which like they they didn't even take you seriously. You couldn't have done more. You were the victim. You were supposed to be fighting for you. And also. No, exactly. She that wasn't her job to fight for that or solve the case or do it correctly.

It wasn't her job. But on top of that, the fact that that happened to her and that she did some. Vivan fought so hard is the reason they ultimately were able to find that guy and solve that case. So she did more than she she did everything.

She's foundational. That's right. She's a fucking hero in her story. Yeah. Big time. Yeah. So when his home is raided, police discover allegedly all kinds of like twisted stuff, kind of like the back of like a homemade sex toys and women's underwear with holes cut out violent erotica stories that are like about the abduction and women and porn depicting rape and torture, just really sadistic, you know, stuff that this mild mannered person wouldn't. We wouldn't think they have it in their in their house.

It's brought in for questioning.

Again, mild mannered. He's calm. He acts surprised and confused about being bored, being brought in and speaks openly with the investigators for 12 hours. And he politely tells them repeatedly that he has no knowledge of the killings and says he is, quote, one hundred and twenty percent positive that he had no involvement in the murders or the sex or the sexual assaults. I don't think.

OK, high red flag. Yeah, the phrasing of that. I'm one hundred and twenty percent positive. I'm not involved.

Yeah, because there's a world where you could maybe not be sure. Yeah. Like you either know you are or you're not involved at all. Right. There's no the assuredness that I'm really sure I didn't do anything is basically giving away that you don't know that your brain is a mystery to you and you don't know what like what you're doing. Right. Because an innocent person would say, I didn't do that. I am not the person who did.

I promise I didn't do it. I'm not sure. Positive I didn't do it.

Yeah, I'm positive I'm not involved. Right. Oh, OK. Yeah.

As opposed to what you're secretly keeping in your head if you are absolutely involved, it's like giving the the and giving the opposite answer to the secret in your head gives it away. Yeah. But finally DNA is tested positive.

I'm not sure that's your next time you're lying. Everyone finally is DNA is tested and he's arrested for the murders of twenty seven year old Ciara Glennon. Twenty three year old Jane Rimmer, an eighteen year old Sarah Spears, as well as the nineteen eighty eight Huntington Dale sexual assault of the eighteen year old woman. And by the way, he lived in Huntington, Dale, as a teenager when these incidents were happening. So a real connection there. And two counts of aggravated sexual penetration without consent of the 17 year old girl in Claremont's in the Claremont Cemetery in nineteen ninety five, all of which he pleads innocent for.

OK, so he's brought to trial three years later on November twenty fifth, twenty nineteen, the night before the trial begins. He admits and pleads guilty to both the sexual assault cases, but not the murders. He pleads innocent to the murders.

He's like, OK, I lied about not being involved in the sexual assault cases. And essentially the defense comes down to the argument that the DNA was contaminated, which I think I I think is why he must have pled guilty to the two assaults so he could explain his DNA being in the lab and then saying, well, you must have used that DNA, got it mixed up and contaminated with the DNA of the murders, which is fucking smart.

It's because I'm because I'm just a rapist.

Just not a murderer. Right? Yes. My you if you can't explain why your DNA is at any scene, then it shouldn't be in the room at all.

But if your DNA is supposed to be in the room because you are involved, you motherfucker, that is a cynical mercenary approach. That sounds like it was it was that a bunch of people worked on that idea, that strategy. It sure does. Doesn't dirty.

Yes. We'll also just because the you're admitting to something that actually is it's its lending itself much more to the character argument that you are a bad fucking person, a sociopath anyway or whatever psychopath.

The idea that you're just like it's just those it's not there. Yeah. So maybe I'll get away with the other ones.

It's an angle, but I think it actually reveals much more about that person in that because Jesus fucking Christ and. Yeah.

And it wasn't well thought out and. Yeah. And it's like it's what was I going to say.

Oh also the M.O. fits all of them, you know, in some way or another. So and also the fact that this, you know, the seventeen year old got got grabbed off the street and pulled it up and pulled into the van. Makes them makes everyone wonder if that's actually they did. Get into a taxi or an unmarked car, maybe one, maybe one of them or all of them were attacked on the street and, you know, kidnapped.

So, yeah, and that if he was such a great guy, a sympathetic guy, a lovely, friendly guy, that it would be very easy if he's wearing a uniform of this kind of well known.

That's. Yes. He used he used the company car. He wore his uniform. Other women said that they had seen him in the area and maybe he tried to pick them up at the time. They testified to that. And he's like at work.

He's we're oh, I'm just going to this call for this phone line. Want me to take you to the area? I can take you. Yeah. So I'm just this business guy. I practically work for the city. I'm just like this. I'm it's like the Culligan Manor. So it's like the Arrowhead Spring delivery guy where you're like, yes, this is the most trustworthy person because he's around. He is. You know, we were saying like, it's so sinister when it's a group of people.

He makes up a background player in a group of people. The the guy. The phone line guy. Totally. I mean, and also the idea that he worked for that company, those knives were found at the scenes of the of some bodies. You don't know the other stuff. I mean, you're in it, friend. Here's well, some of the some of the Elvis.

So essentially the the defense comes down to the argument that the DNA was contaminated, which is, you know, and that which the defense is able to show other instances of contamination in in the case, including several times when the DNA of scientists working on the case was found on samples. So, you know, they do have a chance with that plea or that argument.

You covered that one. It wasn't that. San Diego. San Diego, right. Yeah, but no, but in this actual lab or this DNA was. Oh, yeah. Oh, that's they weren't just saying it happened in general. No.

When I read that I, I remember reading it and like, like March being like oh fuck. Like this better not get him off and on sample in one instance where the DNA of a victim of a totally unrelated crime had been contaminated with a sample of the Claremont killer. But it was all debunked on cross-examination. So I don't even know if it's true.

And the fiber evidence also forms a significant part of the prosecution's case. Remember those blue polyester fibers found on Misremember and it's Glennon's bodies? Well, they matched the Telstra work pants that Edwards would have worn in the mid nineties, which were manufactured specifically for the company using a bespoke colour known as Telstra Navy. So it all fucking ties back to Telstra and you're like, that's crazy. They should have. And there's also fibers that match the nineteen ninety six Holden Commodore that he had driven at the time.

And you're like, why didn't, why didn't they look more into Telstra employees? Why didn't they look at their back, do background checks on all of them, blah, blah blah. So investigators had asked for the names of Telstra workers who would have driven those cars since there had been sightings of those cars. Somehow his fucking name was left off of the list, quote, clerical error, some shit twice.

So if they had seen was I wonder if they would have seen that he had a prior. Well, they would have seen he had a common assault charge, not a sexually motivated charge, but maybe he had a some charge. They would look.

Yeah. They would have seen and maybe been able to go and talk to the victim and see what the real deal was. But also maybe he made it because clearly he got away with it for a long time. So maybe he did something and he had access. Absolutely. When they were putting those lists together, he had access and the ability to delete his own name off the list.

Or maybe he I mean, clearly his fucking supervisors are sympathetic. Maybe he went to them and say, hey, I have this charge. It was for nothing years ago. I don't need them looking at I mean, can you just take my name off the list? Obviously, it's not me. And maybe they did it. Who the fuck knows?

Maybe maybe. I mean, because it is the thing about these people that are they're barely people because they're entirely dedicated to creating a mask that you fall for and feel safe with. And yeah, they just manipulate everyone all the time. It's crazy that they don't get caught. That's the whole point of their life. And also, Telstra had no record of the actual assault in their files that that would even happen. So we're going to go ahead and need a report from Telstra that's going to have to do an internal investigation.

I want I want Wendy Davis to now own the company, Telstra and all the money she gets, all of it for not fucking believed and for not being fucking treated the way she should have been treated. Sorry, when are you on the Telstra now. And she can sell it. Will it be. Yeah, just give her some old school stock. Yeah, so the trial which is decided, so there's no jury, it's just going to be a judge instead of a jury because of the massive public, like everyone knows everything about it.

And also there's these really gruesome details that they just don't think the jury should see. So it's going to be decided upon by a judge. So it's 85 days in the courtroom and there's testimony for more than two hundred witnesses. Sixty thousand pages of DNA and fiber evidence and one hundred and ten gigabytes of data, which in today's gigabytes, I don't know what it is. And it's a billion. It started it started until it started last November. So they did it through covid to like the whole they're just plowing through.

Wow.

Which is incredible. And finally, on Thursday, September twenty fourth, just what, two, three weeks ago, Justice Stephen Hall delivers his verdict. So Bradley John Edwards, he's now 51, was found guilty of the murders of Jane Rimmer and nineteen ninety six and Ciara Glennon in nineteen ninety seven.

But unfortunately, he says that though Edwards is likely the killer of Sarah Sphere's, he felt he couldn't rule it beyond a reasonable doubt because her body had never been found. So there's no DNA evidence, even though the M.O. is identical. So he acquits Edwards on that count, which is so disappointing. I don't think he's doing his job. Obviously, he wanted him to be found guilty as well. But it's just almost like he's being rewarded for hiding her body so well.

Well, I mean, that's yeah, that's just how it is. But it's that thing of like especially in a situation where if DNA is questionable in the first place, that guy has to be so meticulous about the rule of law and what exactly is required to get a, you know, like a guilty verdict. So I almost look around. Yeah, I wonder if almost if there'd be another trial just with Sarah Sphere's case based on the M.O. of the other cases that, you know, if it wasn't tried together, that would somehow, you know, because I mean, they just would need more.

I would think they would need more evidence to tip it over, because the evidence as such there, he's saying, isn't going to do the job. That's true. That's too bad. So sentencing will take place on December twenty third. And so finally, after twenty four years, Australia's longest running and most expensive criminal investigation, one that scarred the city of Perth, finally came to a close. There are people who think that there are more victims of Bradley, John Edwards that are not yet known, which isn't surprising in the same way Golden State killer just stopped, you know what he was doing, or are there other cases from before the known ones?

After the verdict, Siara, Glennon's father, Dennis, said that he had made a graveside promise to his daughter to pursue justice for her or die trying. He said, quote, That promise, that commitment to Sciarra has driven me unwaveringly and unapologetically. The family of Jane Rimmer released a statement saying they were pleased to finally have, quote, some answers about the abduction and horrendous murder of our beloved Jane. Jane had her whole life ahead of her, and it's almost beyond comprehension that this could have ended in such horrific, heinous circumstances.

Our family can now take some comfort today and the healing process can begin. Both families agree, however, that the ordeal won't be over until the Spears family has some closure.

Jane's sister Lea said, quote, We got the result we wanted and now we just have to keep working for the Spears family and hope someone finds Sarah. And that is the story of the Claremont serial killer.

God, wow. It's a I think I listen to who is the Australian guy that hosts his show and no one knows who he is. Oh, yeah.

Case file. Case file. Yes, for sure. I listen to that. I listen to the case file about this.

I think anyone that listen to our podcast, we've talked about case file before, but if you haven't heard it, it's great. He does an amazing job on that show and especially Australian based crimes like you. So, such a good researcher.

But yeah, it is such a like epic case there. The idea that they just closed the book in for those two murders, at least. Yeah, it's kind of amazing. I mean, that's my theory. So many people just never thought it'd be solved, you know, and when you think of it in terms of Perth being pretty small and isolated and just knowing that there's a killer among you, that you have no idea when they're going to strike again, it's never going to be it would never be safe for a woman to fuckin walk home again.

It's just it's horrible.

Also makes me think of like what excuse me what Billy and Paul are doing on murder squad because it doesn't it always come down every time we tell these stories where it's cold case and then something comes up because they have this they have fresh blood in the you know, the people, new detectives, people that there's they're dedicating cold case teams to this. And people are going into the evidence room and pulling out those old boxes and looking through them. I mean, that's just like doing it the the old fashioned way.

It's always really heartening to hear those stories of people who are like, we want these solved and we want these families to. Yeah. To get justice in some way.

And not only is the technology changing so they can do DNA testing the way they never could, but ah ah thought are like ideas of what a victim is and what a perpetrator is. And who could do these crimes and how and why they happen is changing and becoming less, hopefully less fucking misogynistic so that people can justify a little bit more fact based, because how many stories have we told where it is always these people who everyone says they are great.

They lent me things from their garage, like the way we the way we decide people are good people in this world. They don't make problems for me. A lot of smiling compe, a small talk and conversation. And then, you know, hopefully you don't ever catch them on that weird day where they decide to kick a cat or something or accidentally.

It's just this their car and see the rage suddenly in their face or whatever. It just such superficial.

Like I, I hope that if nothing else, all the true crime trend just will hip people to the idea that you have to we've talked about this before, save that trust for the third date like you, if it's your neighbor and he lends you the lawnmower, doesn't mean he's a good person. Like you need to see people out in their day to day. And I mean, but again, like we said, some of these like true psychopaths, he would never be you would never think in a million years because that's they dedicate their lives to being the kind of people you would never suspect.

Wow. Great job. That was really good. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. I like the idea that that's that's when we can we can look at is being solved now I think. Yeah. All right. It's fucking her time. All right. And not a moment too soon. Hey man, let's see. This one's from Hayley and it says this fucking her is for Slash about my fellow murdering former roommate and best friend Kendall. We just graduated college, which is a fucking horror in and of itself during twenty twenty.

And then this bitch, this is in all caps.

And then this bitch started law school at fucking Harvard Law. She is one of the smartest, hardest working people I know. And she truly cares about this world and politics and fighting for those without a voice. She's exactly the type of lawyer that we all know this world needs more of and there's no one more deserving. She also did this while being a wonderful friend and daughter while her while both of her parents are kicking cancer's ass. I love her and I'm so fucking proud of her.

And I can't wait to watch her become a real life. Elwood's fighting for people that need a voice the most as a CGM.

Hayley, come. Hell, yeah, I love that. Some way to glow your friend up. I know. I love it.

Someone else is fucking her is their friend. That's so beautiful. She's very proud of her friend who went to Harvard fucking law. It's bad ass. Yeah. This is so awesome.

From Instagram from live underscore doosra. OK, my fucking hurry this week are my mom and murdering friends who helped me assess DGM.

Two of these badass ladies who know. Oh, my morning walk routine immediately checked in on me when there was a report of two active shooters in our area. Within minutes I had four different friends who checked in every few minutes until I was home safe. Women looking after women. It's such a beautiful thing. If it hadn't been for them, I probably would have walked right through the wrong neighborhood on my way home or taken my usual trail through the woods where the perpetrators were evading police.

Oh, so I'm so grateful and so lucky to have the friends that I do.

Huge. Thank you to them for making sure my son and I got home safe.

Wow. Beautiful. His friends seem. Yeah. Here comes the little monkey, huh? Let's see. This is fucking her. I saved a life. I'm a 911 dispatcher for a living. So I deal with people's worst. Every worst day. Every day. Oh, wow. And if you think that. Holy shit.

Oh, the other day I took a call from a teenager that her aunt wasn't responding. I got the ambulance en route and she and we started CPR. The paramedics got on scene and she became alert and talked with them. And then all caps, she walked herself to the ambulance.

Not the first life save I've had before, but it's always a great feeling because most things don't end that well in my line of work.

Stephanie. Amazing. Amazing. Keep it up. Yeah, this one is called I FaceTime my ninety five year old great grandma for the first time. This is from the fan called for him and it's sent by Louis von Dewey.

What's up Louie. Louie. OK, my ninety five year old great grandma Dolores is one of my most favorite people on earth. She's a god damn angel. She lives two hours up north and though I have tried to see her at her nursing facility, I've been denied three times even for a window visit. She has pretty severe Alzheimer's, so she doesn't really know who I am anymore. But I tried to visit her as often as I could when the world allowed.

But last night I found out she's in the hospital and tested positive for covid.

Mm, not the best news, but my boyfriend called the hospital and explained that he is a coroner and I work in a funeral home and that our city has seen more cases than the whole country she lives in.

He then was directed at the hospital coordinator who informed him that I am able to FaceTime her on the hospital's iPad and I got to see her. The nurse told her, quote, Lindsey's on the phone and she perked up. Her eyes got big and she seemed to know who I was through tears and some giggles, I finally got to see her one more time. I told her I love her. And the nurse said she gripped the iPad tighter and pulled it closer.

I wish I was there so she could squeeze my hand when I told her I love her like she used to. But I knew her grumbles and snickers meant that she loved me to stay sexy and tell the people you love that you love them. Any chance you get Lindsey?

Oh, wow. Yeah, heavy. I mean, it's heavy times.

Everything's getting real fuckin real. And there's people dealing with shit like this, you know, trying to get a hold of their relatives who are dying alone in a hospital. Like aside from aside from the fact that there's no plan, aside from the fact there's been no contact tracing, aside from all these other things that are an absolute just collapse of leadership, that idea that there's just no no one's taking the time just to make this a more workable, livable thing.

It's just we're going to be dealing with it for a long time. We are. We totally are.

Yeah, but we can say but we can say when things are great because there's little things that are and we just keep doing what's right for your point. Look for the fucking areas in your life and tell them to us on Instagram and Twitter and a phone call, please.

Yeah, we need it. We all need it. We really need it.

I have hummingbird's that there's hummingbirds in my tree and there's hummingbirds in the neighbor's tree. And now there's a hummingbird highway between the two that's right outside my window. And that's fucking right. I mean, that's my fucking right, because also it reflects of how much time I spend staring at and sitting at this desk being like the verge.

But then it's like. Yeah, I got to got to, you know, keep your eyes peeled for a picture of the birds traveling at high speeds, my fucking.

I haven't had a drink in three nights. Tonight will be four nights. And I'm just trying to take a little time off. And I and it's been great.

I had this realization that like, oh, you know, all the anxiety and negativity and self-hatred and self talk you do when you're drunk, it actually will stop. If you don't drink, it's not like it'll get better. It's not like it's not like it'll lower it a little bit like that whole thing will. There's a way to actually stop it.

It's like hit me like, oh, I don't have to have a hangover ever again if I just completely stop. Fuck. Right.

I know baby steps. I'm learning. That's right. Well, you know what it is. You have to feel the reality of it because you can't conceptualize your way into doing that. You just have to go. This feels better. I'm going to do it until it doesn't feel right and then I'm going to deal with it when it's something else before the moment. And for right now, you can go. I want to do the thing that feels the best to me because especially all things considered.

Yeah. Let's let's actually aim at good feeling as opposed to habits that we think bring relief. Right.

I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired, so I'm trying something else right now. Thanks for listening for two hours to us. You guys in this crazy world.

We appreciate that you stop by and say hello to your aunts, your crazy aunts. Yeah, that's right.

Oh, we love when you come to visit, honey. The hard way is I have the Christmas cookies you like from last Christmas.

Let me pull out this tin. Oh, Grandma Energy, honey. Grandma Energy.

Honey, I'll fix you a plate. That's what grandma is.

Do you keep that grandma energy this week if you can't do anything else? Yeah. Then at least just keep a little of your grandma of someone else's grandma. You liked a cartoon grandma, whatever you need. But that's the energy approach. Everyone with Grandma Energy this week. Yes. I'll fix you a plate. Of course you can come over grandma's feed. Everybody fix your hard place. You do it. Yeah.

Oh I'll feed others. Yeah. And oh and also stay sexy and don't get murdered by all this.

Do you want a cookie. Why?