I want to tell you about a new series from our friends over at Mumbai Crime. If you've not heard Mumbai Crime before, it's an audio drama anthology of thrillers set and recorded on the streets of Mumbai, India. And to celebrate the festive season, they're releasing their own take on the Dickens' classic, Martin Chuselwit. It's presented by writer Ayesha Menon and produced by Andy Goddard. And each season is a complete story. Their version of Martin Chuselwit is relocated to the Catholic community of Mumbai. It's a satire about the corrosive effects of money and power as the family all clamor to get into their elderly relatives will. So if you're feeling chilly and are trying out your new festive socks, grab a cup of tea and put your feet up while they transport you to India. Check out the Mumbai Chuselwits out now on The Mumbai Crime Podcast. Check it out wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, and welcome to the season finale of season five of Normal Gossip. I'm Kelsey McKinney. And in each episode of this podcast, we're going to bring you an anonymous parcel of gossip from the real world. Today, I am so excited to have with me the internet's favorite boy, my coworker, David Roth.

How's it going? So I'll take listeners inside the game for a moment. Kelsey asked me to write a little bio for myself, and I wrote it.

Oh, I have a bio. Don't worry. I'm going to read it. I just want to make it.

Clear that I would not say that I'm the internet's favorite boy in a setting where I thought it was recorded. I've said it manytimes in other words.

David Roth is an editor and a co-owner at Defecter Media. His writing has appeared in The New Republic, GQ, The New Yorker, and many other places. He co-hosts The Distraction Podcast. He has a pet turtle named Marvin and is a huge advocate for having a little sweetie treaty in the afternoon. David Roth, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you for having me, Kelsey. I appreciate it. It's good to be here.

I'm so happy that you're here. Roth? Yes. Would you like to start me off with the classic first question and tell me what your relationship with gossip is?

I think my initial instinct is that I've always been afraid of gossip because I'm afraid of alligators. I'm not afraid of... Gossip is not going to eat me. But I think the idea of interpersonal gossip always did create a strange feeling in the pit of my stomach. And then the more I thought about it, the more I realized that I've been doing nothing but gossiping, and I've been surrounded by nothing but gossip. Just professionally, since I started getting proper jobs, that's all it is.

Yeah. I mean, those are the two parts of sports, gossip and the actual sport.

Right. And if you weigh them out, it's 90 % not sports, and then the 10 % where they're putting on their little uniforms and playing the game, that's neat. But the rest of it and all the world building shit that you do as a fan where you're like, Well, they don't like each other because their wives had a little bit of it. It was a thing. It was on Instagram. All of that stuff, I know about that because some dude told me about it.

Right. Another thing that you write about is politics. Do you have anything you'd like to say about gossip and politics.

Before we move on? I mean, that's the dark-sided version of it, because there is a lot of it. But it's funny, the stuff that I'm willing to accept in terms of weird, petty backbiting between wide receivers and quarterbacks, as soon as that's transposed to members of Congress, I instantly lose any sympathy for it. And I'm like, You need to grow up. You have an important job. Do your job, George Santos or whatever.

Yes, because the difference is one man's job is catch pointy shaped ball, and the other person's job is legislate and lead the country.

Right. Just an up or down vote on should we have a war? It's a very different tenor and responsibility.

Please stop chirping. No.

Most of the time, politics, gossip sucks. It's just bad vibes and it's annoying people. People who really couldn't have any other job, a normal job. The best case scenario is they own a car dealership that's like a family of raccoons living in it that they can't get to leave or whatever. It's not a competent or likable cohort, but I've been trying to reconcile with the George Santos related gossip really is primal shit. I just don't like it. I don't like that he's in Congress. He represents Long Island, which as somebody who's from New Jersey, I have a whole narcissism of small differences relationship with Long Island. But there's stuff about the Santos related shit that I actually like. I have to tip my cap.

That is one of the annoying things about ethics is often unethical things. They're funny. Yeah. And that's a little fucked up in my opinion.

No argument there.

Roth, I was told that you brought a little gossip for me. Is that true?

I have. So I struggle with this. It gave me a new appreciation for what you all do here because I've been trying to put it together. And I'm realizing that most of the stuff that seems like it should be gossip is just the fact that I live in a big building full of unreasonable people. So what I settled on is something closer to home. I have a turtle named Marvin, as you know. He's a good lad. So when I got Marvin with his late brother, he was being sold out of one of those buckets of drywall on Canal Street in Chinatown. You got two turtles, a small amount of food, and a tiny little case for $20. And this was 21 years ago. It was an impulse buy. And I did not know at the time, first of all, it's a strange impulse. I'm going to own that. Okay, well, thank you. I can't imagine how many people walked by that day and were like, cut me a piece. I want some of that.

That man sold one pair of turtles in a month, and it was you.

All it takes is the right idiot, and that was me at that moment. But I didn't know that turtles live basically as long as people do. I'll have Marvin, Lord willing, for the rest of my life. And yeah, they live... It's like pet birds. Okay. This will connect later. But when I did bring Marvin to a veterinarian, this was something that I learned. She's just basically like, you can expect another 20 odd years.

Super. And how long have you had Marvin.

At this point? Twenty-one years. So it is-.

Marvin's going to have a midlife crisis by a convertible.

Oh, yeah. He's already, I think, going to be like, so this is it. We never go on vacation together. Let's just not just sit here by the window. All right, cool. Sweet. I didn't know how to have a pet turtle. The turtles that I got, weirdly, I don't know that this law has changed. They're not illegal to possess, but they are illegal to sell in the state of New York. Okay. Not because they're an invasive species or anything, just because there's a lot of weird laws involving pets. So I basically did a crime, brought these two turtles home when I was in my early 20s and still have one of them. I figured they were like fit.

You're so rebellious.

Yeah, it is. It's actually the single naughtiest thing that I've done in my life. So I brought the turtle home, and I got a tank for it, and I put some gravel down. I got a little rock for the guys to sit on. And that was just what I thought you were supposed to do, because that's what you do with a fish in one way. And then also I know the turtles need to be dry, so I did that. Years later, I met a guy. This was during a heat wave. A man who was walking his turtle, I guess, would be the term that you'd have for it in my neighborhood.

Okay. The turtle was on a leash?

Well, it was not on a leash, but they're not super fast. That part of I know that's the one thing everybody knows about them, but it's true. Not a lot of burst, not a lot of stamina. So I saw this turtle walking down the street and I saw a man keeping an eye on it. And I was like, I'm a turtle owner myself. Welcome to the brotherhood. And he gave me a business card that was his name, and then underneath it, it said, turtle expert. And I was like, I got to note, it didn't have a contact information. It was just like an identification thing. So I asked him about his turtle. He gave me some tips. One thing he said was you got to get rid of the gravel and the turtle tank. It's not good for them. So I did. Next time I clean the turtle tank, I threw a bunch of rocks out with the garbage, which is just a long chain of me doing normal shit. That's what the rest of the story is going to be. So I got rid of it. Turtle didn't seem to mind. They didn't seem to notice.

They're not talkative. Years later, not continuing to clean the turtle tank whenever it gets gross, take the guys out, wash everything off, rinse everything out. Every now and then, I would still find little bits of gravel, little small rocks in there and be like, That's weird. How did I miss that for six or seven years?

Right. How is this pebble still here? There should be no more pebble.

And I assumed it was like, I don't know, it was in the filter or whatever.

Stuck in a little tree.

Yeah. And there's not a lot of places to hide in the tank, but I am both lazy and cleaning eternal tank is not fun. So I was just like, All right, let's get this over with.

So you weren't investigating. You were just like, These are the secret pebbles that live in the tank.

Yeah. But I didn't give it any thought. I should have, because if it's a red flag that there's a rock where there wasn't a rock before, that's not something that happens very much, even in a geological context. But in this case, I ignored it for, let's say, five years, probably more than that. Okay. At some point, Marvin, being a turtle, made a mistake. And some of the little guss at little plastic stuff at the bottom of the tank had come loose, and Marvin, being a turtle, ate it.

Marvin. And I would.

Have said, if I could have reasoned with him, don't eat that. I'll give you food. That's not food. I have food for him. But apparently, this is something I later learned from a veterinarian that this is like, that's all that turtles do. They sleep. They like to sit on a rock. Sometimes they like to be in the water. And the other thing they do is eat every single thing that they find.

They're just like me.

Yes, I was going to say it's an energy that I've embodies throughout my own life, which I think is-.

They take after you. They take after you.

They learned it from watching me. So he eats the plastic stuff. I'm worried. He's getting agitated, and I have to start looking for a vet for the first time. They're very easy pets. They don't need to get regular checkups or shots in the way that dogs or cats do. How much trouble could a turtle conceivably get in if all you're ever doing is moving it from one tank to the next?

Right. But now he's eating a small piece of rubber.

Yes. Which leads us to the secret that my turtle had been keeping from me for more than a decade, which was that when we had those rocks in the tank, Marvin was absolutely going to town and snacking on the rocks, eating them. Marvin. So he's getting upset.

Finally- Just throwing rocks into the back of his mouth like popcorn.

Yeah. The way that... The way that I eat Cheezets after a low dose edible, that is how Marvin was eating the most definitionally inedible thing that exists on Earth. So the way I find this out is finally he, and this is the gross part of the story, I apologize, he Yorks up some of the plastic. I get that out of the tank so he's not tempted to eat it again because Lord knows. The decision making is extremely suspect. I figure this is the end of it. At some point over the evening hours, so after I do that, I'm soothing Marvin in the way that I can't pet his shell. I don't even know if he likes it, but it's all I could do. Overnight, Marvin gorgeed, I would say, two dozen small rocks, one way or another in the tank.

What?

It was years worth of the random pebbles that I found. I guess that Marvin had just had those in his body for 10 years.

The weird piece of rubber agitated them.

Yes. But at some point, that got in there and mixed it up. And so they came out. I got them out of there quickly and then started frantically trying to find a vet at that point.

Right, because you're like, my turtle has had dozens of rocks inside him for a year. He's like, the turtles.

I found a lady, she's on the other side of town. I put Marvin in his little tank, and I got on the bus with my turtle because at this point, there's no making this situation less deranged. So she takes a look at Marvin and checks them out. They did an X-ray, which was nice, which revealed no further rocks, which was very reassuring. But basically, the person did tell me, This is normal. Don't put any more rocks in front of your turtle. He's most definitely going to eat them or try to eat them. But otherwise, he should be okay. Probably got another couple of decades in him, and so that was that. And I've continued to... It's been a year. Marvin is behaving more or less as well as I think I could expect him to behave. But our relationship is different because I know now-.

He has this whole other life.

Yeah. Like, an animal whose brain is maybe the size of a lentil, not notably more cognitively powerful than a lentil, successfully kept a secret from me for 15 years.

Wow. Yeah. Does that make you feel sad, or does it make you feel impressed?

Honestly, more impressed. Again, this comes back to the fact that if Marvin had the capacity to be like, I got a level with you, I am absolutely full of rocks. I would have been like, All right, thank you for telling me. Let's get to work on this. But he can't say anything. He just climbs up on the rock and it's like... And that's the extent of our discourse is that.

Rob, thank you. I loved this gossip about a pet.

Thank you. Kelsey, I appreciate it.

To transition us, can you tell me how you're feeling going into this election year?

Full of dread. Thank you for asking. Yeah.

Oh, you're so welcome.

I've had to write a lot about Trump during his presidency, and then when he was gone to the extent that I thought he was gone, I was just like, all right, cool. I'm free. Now I can go back to writing my little posts about which baseball teams I find irritating or whatever. And yeah, I guess I'll never be free, which is cool. And that's a bad feeling. How are you feeling about it? You pumped? Are you ready to get out there and have some discourse?

No, I'm also feeling full of dread. A lot of people are going to be interested in the presidential election next coming year and elections about senators and representatives and judges, and those are all very important. Registration to vote is good. But could I interest you today in hearing about a much stupider election?

Oh, my gosh. Yes. I'll take the stupidest election gossip you've got.

I've got it. Our friend of a friend today, we're going to call her Talia.

Hello.

Talia. Talia lives in the Southwest. Beautiful desert town. She grew up here, she loves it, but it's the place with so much sun and and space that people become a little eccentric. In some ways, they are normally eccentric, and in other ways, they are not so normal.

All right.

So, for example, a normal way that these people are eccentric is that they have a Facebook group for the town where people fight. They also fight in this group about normal things, like which of the chain grocery stores are best.

And.

Which locations are boujeeist and which locations are most crowded and which locations they hate. But they also love to fight about politics, obviously, in this group. And because this is the town that is a little eccentric, they love to give people nicknames in this town. So, for example, someone named Matthew, who believes that the Earth is flat, they now call Flatview.

Good. All right, that's solid. Honestly, whatever, it might be a little cruel to do that. But if you bring enough craft to the nicknaming, I think I got to allow it.

Yeah. This is just an example. A flat view is not actually important to our story. I just thought you would like to know. The most important member of our story today is named Cheezet.

All right.

Cheezit is the mayor.

It's not necessarily what you want, but let's say, I don't know much about Cheezit's policies. I just feel like I know a little bit about Cheezit's tanning habits.

You do know a lot about eccentric mayors, though. Can you tell me the pros and cons of having an eccentric mayor?

I think in some ways, it's like there's a harm reduction argument in that if that person is the mayor, then they don't have another job where you might have to deal with them more often.

Yeah. They're not like your doctor.

Right. So if they're in the mayor's office, then they're not performing a physical on you or fixing your car.

They can't cause you immediate death.

Yeah. It's more of an administrative process, which is good. It slows them down.

Yeah.

So is Cheezet not an affectionate nickname? Because I think of Cheezets as being good.

Oh, yeah. Thank you so much for asking. Cheezet is the actualactual name because Cheezet is the pet mayor of this town.

All right, go on.

The pet mayor is in the mayor's culture department. In this town, the pet mayor is on a two-year term.

Okay.

Every two years, they elect a new pet mayor.

So when you say pet mayor, you're talking about an animal pet.

Yes.

Good. All right, cool. This is.

An elected pet.

People go to the polls?

Yes. People, Pokemon, go to the polls every two years to elect a pet mayor. They don't actually go to the literal poll. They have to do it separately for legal reasons, but it's.

An online poll. You don't want to force the pets to register with a party and then they got a campaign donations. It's a whole thing.

Yeah, you don't want that. Thing about Cheezet is that this is Cheezet's fifth two-year term as pet mayor.

Oh, my gosh. This is really more of a pet President for Life scenario.

Yeah. There are no term limits on pet mayor, which is maybe a flaw, depending on your opinion. So Cheezet has been pet mayor of this town for a decade. How do you feel about this?

I mean, I'd want to know more about Cheezet. I'd want to review some footage. But I feel like in general, that's not something that necessarily happens by accident. When a person is mayor for 10 years, something is not cooking right. Corruption. But if a pet, right. But I don't think that, and again, I'm looking forward to being proven wrong if this is the case, I don't think that Cheezit could like, warp the mechanisms of power such that Cheezet remains in power for a decade. Probably, it's just that Cheezit is one of those spanials that climbs on your leg in a cute way. It's a nice way to be.

Yeah. Our friend of a friend, Talia, she loves Cheezet. Cool. She's like, Cheezet is a great pet bear, very quiet, very calm. Kids love Cheezet. What pet do you think Cheezet is?

So I'm hoping that it's like a nice dog, but I feel like because we're in the Southwest, all bets are off. If you were like, Cheezet is a Gila monster, but a nice gila monster, I'd be like, Oh, interesting. So what I'm hoping for is aged plug with very serene vibes, but I'm thinking that's probably not right.

Wrong. Cheeset is a goldfish.

Also good.

As pet mayor, Cheeset has many jobs. Cheeset attends restaurant openings. Cheeset can write endorsements of businesses.

Really?

Yes. There is a sticker that says, Cheeset approved and has a picture of Cheeset that can get slapped.

On things. That's excellent.

The pet mayor also has a column in the local papers. Cheeset has a lot of opinions like adult litter, water's smart, microplastics are bad, very powerful position.

These are all positions that I also hold. I would have thought that I was not qualified to be a pet mayor, but it turns out that policy wise, Cheeset and I are pretty well aligned.

Yeah. You may be asking, though, how does the Goldfish attend a restaurant opening?

I'm assuming that they have a security detail or just the guy carrying them in a bowl.

Carried around in a bowl. Exactly. So similarly to when Marvin went on the bus, that's cheese its whole life.

That's incredible. I feel like in some ways that was probably the best day of Marvin's life. It's great to think that for Cheezit, gets to live that experience multiple times. Every time a Qdoba opens in town.

Exactly. That's great. Cheezet gets to go christen it. The pet mayor's biggest job in this town is at the fall. There's a big county fair and the pet mayor is the host of the fair, famously.

Yeah. I know that all scans, more or less.

How are you feeling at this point?

A little worried for Cheeset, if I'm being honest. Okay, say more. It seems like a lot of work for a goldfish. Again, not famously one of the more forward thinking organisms.

On Earth. Yeah, small brain.

Little brain. Yeah, but a short memory as well. So it's the thing where even if this goes bad, Cheezet's going to wake up the next day being like, That was an amazing fair, probably.

I hate to tell you this, but your feeling of dread is accurate. Usually, no pets die on this podcast. But one day in May, a whole summer before Cheezet's 11th county fair, Cheezet goes belly up. Everyone is very sad. But everyone is like, Cheezet had a good life. He was mayor. He's going to the mayor's fishbowl in the sky.

That's an incredibly long run for a goldfish. Ten years is a long, not just a long time to be in power for any pet, but 10 years is a long time for a goldfish to not be dead.

Yes. Whenever there is a death in office, we have to ask, do you suspect foul play?

I mean, where goldfishes are concerned, I feel like that is overdoing it, just in the sense that goldfish die for plenty of reasons. Usually it's their time. But yeah, you're right. I mean, if Cheezet is all over town, if everywhere that you're going, you're seeing a sticker of Cheezet endorsing something, or crucially, not seeing it and being like, well, what does Cheezet know about this place that I don't? You're going to make a lot of enemies in 10 years in power.

Yeah.

So I'm a little concerned about that.

Part of it. The town folk are concerned, and they are gossiping, and they are posting in the Facebook group, and they are like, we are very concerned about Cheezet's death to the point that Cheezet's owner is forced to issue a statement. Cheezet's owner is like, no one needs to worry. Cheezet had a long and happy life. Cheezet's vet suspects that a lifetime of being given snacks by children did him in.

But that's the way to go if you're a goldfish.

That's the way to go.

And I'm assuming the statement is like, I do not encourage flat, earth, Matthew's speculation that she said it was a hologram or anything like this. The discourse is not great, but everybody is generally pulling in the same direction.

Like everyone who dies in office while we are sad about cheese at death, the process must move on. There's a county fair.

That seat cannot be empty on day one of the county fair, I agree. But there's not a chain of succession for the mayoral pet.

Thank you for asking. This is a question I had for you, which is what do you know about vacant executive seats and how these positions of power could be filled?

I mean, ordinarily, there's a chain of succession. So theoretically, if there had been a resilient process built in here that it would be after Cheezits passing, someone from the human mayor's office or some other part of the political establishment would knock on the door of somebody who owns a beagle and be like, I have some great news about crackers. You're going to want to get everybody together for this. And then you announce either an interim pet mayor because you need to have an election eventually, but the seat can't be empty for too long or else that creates a power vacuum and then anarchy. So what's their process? Do they have a process?

Something I learned in my research of this is that in many states, the governor just gets to appoint someone to a position. If a senator retires, the governor just gets to be like, This is the new senator. And what party that person was before is irrelevant, which is very interesting and scary. Do you think that that would be a good policy for a pet mayor?

I think it's a better policy for a pet mayor than it is for a United States Senator, only again, because the risk seems somewhat lower. Because a lot of times, governors, it's another one of those sorts of jobs where people just agree to elect someone so that they won't have to see them as much.

Yes.

So in this case, I don't know who would necessarily be making that decision, but it does seem like the stakes are, you don't want to say lower because a pet mayor is important, but they're lower.

Yes. The problem here is that the pet mayor intentionally has a short term, a two-year term. So theoretically, a pet mayor should not die in office. And so there was no plan.

Terrible.

Additionally, this town has only had a pet mayor for 20 years, and Cheezit has been in office for 10.

Right. This is again, one of those things where it's really easy to come up with depressing American political parallels where it's just like, people are just voting for this person because they forgot that you could have someone else as your senator. And that's how you wind up with.

Like- John Cornan.

Yeah. People that are basically like, if the cryptkeeper went to college, those people are still in the United States Senate. That's not what you want.

Yes. There is no precedent for what to do here. So a special committee is called in the human mayor's office, and it is decided that out of honor for Chezid, a special election will be held before the fair- Thank goodness. -to elect a new mayor to finish Chezid's term.

This seems like the right thing to do. That said, I feel like there's probably a lot of trauma in the community and people might not be ready to accept either a new mayor or just deal with the usual mudsligging that I imagine predominates in a pet mayoral campaign.

Yes. The other problem is that this is decided in May after she's at staff, and the fair is in the fall. So people are going to vote on Labor Day so that the mayor can be inaugurated at the fair, which means that there's a shortened campaign window.

Yeah. This is one of those things where everything that you're saying to me is completely insane. And yet I'm nodding, being like, oh, that's smart. Good. Have it on a holiday. That way more people can vote. Yeah, go on. This is good. So far I'm pretty impressed with the plan that they're.

Rolling out. Yeah. The decisions made by the Human Mayor's office are announced in a classic way on the local news network.

Yeah, so people know.

The people know. The clip from the local news network is posted in the Facebook group. The time period that this story takes place in is a time in which this town is ungoverned for several months. Yes. There is no one to attend the elementary school graduation. There is no one to christen restaurants. The only benefit of this is that one of the restaurants that opened during the period with no pet mayor was a sushi restaurant. So Cheezit was not forced to do that.

Yes, which is a small mercy. Because I'm assuming that Cheezit would have endorsed, but that's the thing that would reflect poorly on your legacy.

Yeah. It's hard when you're forced to endorse the death of your homies.

Yeah. Just being in there and being like, wow, they look great.

Yeah, exactly. Our friend of a friend, Talia, has a dog named Wolfgang. Wolfgang is named after the composer, Mozart. Yes, that is what- Because he has weird, flippy hair, like a founding father. Okay. It's the dog that our colleague, Samer, would really like.

Oh, yes.

Could you describe this dog?

So a roomy-eyed, senior, chihuahua, the dog that you would pick up and put in... You know how you get sweatshirts and got the one big pocket in the front? Yeah. Not only could you put this dog into that pocket, it would fit in in such a way that no one would know. You could stick your dog into a movie.

So.

Yes. So is Wolf gang 13? All of Sam or Chihuahua's are things that they're adorable, but they're also a little unholy. Their tongue never goes back in their mouth, and they look really tired all the time.

Yes. All of these words you're saying are exactly accurate. Wolf gang is 12 years old. He is a very small white dog. He is a little fucked up. His tongue is always.

Sticking out. Fantastic.

He cannot walk in a straight line. He's the happiest dog on Earth.

I don't know if you know the answer to this question. Are not residents of this town allowed to vote in this mayoral election?

Great question. No, they.

Are not. All right. Because I would love to throw my support vigorous behind the dog you just described. Okay.

Do you think if you're Talia and you have Wolfgang, this little tongue sticking out, can't walk in a straight line dog, do you submit Wolfgang for the pet mayoral race?

I'd certainly be inclined to do it because it sounds like a pretty special animal that I think people would really... I'm in joy. But I guess the concern here is whether your neighbors think that you're being power hungry, or I guess they would say that Wolfgang is being power hungry, which seems completely unfair to hang on a dog that can't even walk in a straight line.

Talia is like, I see some pros here. She's like, Wolfgang would absolutely win the hearts and minds of the people of this town with his funky appearance and winning attitude. She's like, But the con is that I don't want to write a column for the paper.

Oh, I hadn't thought about that.

Yeah.

I was just like, Oh, wow, that's incredible that Cheezet can type. Let alone be so informed about the perils of microplastics. But yes. All right, obviously, yeah, the person writes the column. That makes more sense.

Yeah. I'm sorry to take the sheath and magic off of this. Talia is like, I don't want to write the column for the paper. She's also like, I love to lurk in the Facebook group. I love to observe the town drama, and I feel that this is going to be a contentious election, and I do not want to submit my beautiful.

Dog to that. Yeah, to have to deal with the mud slinging and the character assassination. There's a lot of good pets that probably never run for office for those very reasons.

That's so true. In June, the first straw poll is released. It identifies two leading candidates for pet mayor. The first is Sir Midnight the Iguana.

All right. Night.

Sir Midnight is a nocturnal iguana. He wears a tiny cowboy hat with a tiny turquoise stud.

Okay.

That's all there is to know about Sir Midnight, the Iguana. The second pet mayor candidate in the lead is a husky named Cadillac.

Okay. I'd want to know more, but I like the idea of a husky in leadership. Although I think that, again, if I had to choose, those are not smart dogs either. I think I would rather have a small, less messy dog at a restaurant opening than a husky. But I don't know. I'd have to know more about Cadillac positions and stuff.

What else do you know about huskies?

Are you setting me up to talk about sneaker wolf? Are we allowed.

To do that? We can. No, It wasn't, but please.

This is a neighborhood celebrity. There's a dog in our neighborhood that my wife and I have basically elevated to the status of a minor supernatural creature that is a very big, very fluffy husky whose owners put it in those little shoes that dogs wear, the little booties. Tiny boots. And so we call him sneaker wolf. And if you see sneaker wolf all day long, you will have good luck. He's blessed. So, yes, I don't know if Cadillac's got it like, sneaker wolves got it. But they're powerful animals, but they're not uncomplicated animals.

Talia is very against Cadillac being mayor because she thinks that a pet mayor should be able to go places and not create loud chaos. That a pet mayor should be seen and not hurt.

It's going to be hard with a husky.

Husky, they're yelling all the time. They've got shit to say.

Yep. Hollering.

Talia is like, This is why Cheezet was the perfect mayor. He was inside a bowl. He never yelled.

Was literally incapable of doing it. All right. So is this inspiring, Talia, to like... Because sometimes this is, I think, again, many political campaigns have started this way. There's two candidates you don't think they're worthwhile. And so you would start to think to yourself, Why not my half-blind, Chihuahua?

No, this is not inspiring her. Right now, she is the only.

Woman with theory. She just hates writing columns so much.

Yes. And she hates Cadillac because she is against Cadillac's owner. Cadillac's owner is a man we are going to call Junkel Red.

That's an ominous nickname here.

His nickname came about because he was called Red growing up because he had red hair. Then his nephew became the quarterback of the local football team. So then he was Uncle Red. But this man also owns a junkyard on the outside of town and makes strange and intriguing metal sculptures. So now he's called Junkle Red.

All right, good.

Yeah. So you could see that this is in the same spirit of the town that named someone flat few.

Yeah, it's a town of pony people.

Junkle Redd enters Cadillac the Husky into the mayoral race. That's fine. The way that you enter your pet into the pet mayoral race is used a bit of photo and a bio. And those things go on the pet mayor's website. Okay. And then people will aggregate that onto the Facebook group for you to see, right? So it says, vote for Sir Midnight and here are his hobbies or whatever.

Yeah, he loves his little hat.

Yes, jungle Red is like, That is not enough for me. Jungle Red begins campaigning hard immediately. He's posting to the Facebook group every day, reminding people to vote. He's texting people. He's making T-shirts with Cadillac on them and handing them out.

So the first two things make me think that Junkle Red needs to respect people's boundaries. But then the third thing makes me think that I should have a T-shirt that has Cadillac on it. So it's complicated.

Yeah, it's confusing.

Reasonable people are like, I'm very annoyed by this because this is a fake election for pet mayor. And this man is just destroying the Facebook group with all of this.

He's cheping in you. Yeah.

Yeah, well, unreasonable people are also upset, but they are upset because they are like, This is disrespectful to the memory of Cheezet.

They're like, nobody should serve as pet mayor.

Yes. All right.

Yeah, that's also an unreasonable position. But again, it's easier for me to understand that than the idea of just bulk texting everyone that's ever been to your junkyard and being like, Cadillac wants you to roar, roar, roar your way to the poles. It shouldn't be doing that.

One day, Talia is out in the square of this town with the Wolf Gang, and she sees Junkle Redd running around handing out flyers. On the flyer is a meme.

What.

Are you making that sound already?

Memes are for computers and phones. Anyway, go ahead. So whatever.

The meme is the meme of that guy pointing at a butterfly? Yeah. The butterfly on the meme that she has handed on the slyre is titled Cadillac. Okay. And at the bottom, the text says, is this the pet mayor?

That's not how you do that meme, though, I don't think. I think that is not correct. I mean, I love where Junkle Redd's head is at, I guess, in the abstract. But yeah, well, whatever.

Can you explain why this is wrong in case someone doesn't know?

Well, because the idea is somebody confusing the butterfly for some other thing because they don't have any context. If you are the guy in the meme, you don't know shit. You don't know what a butterfly is. You think it's something else because you are for reasons of self-interest.

Do you tell Junklehead that this meme is wrong?

Certainly not. But this is what separates me as somebody who is, I don't know, conflict-diverse from somebody who is going back and forth about whether or not their dog should be mayor. I'm hoping that Talia was like, hey, you don't understand how this meme works, do you?

No. See, in this sense, you and Talia are aligned. Good. And Talia is like, not my circus, not my monkey. Right. I am not getting involved in this. Thank you for the flyer. I love it.

To be clear, that is the right move. Never correct someone on a meme, I-R-L. At that point, you're both in the wrong.

Yeah, that's not making you look good to be like, Actually, this is not how you use this meme. When Talia gets home, she's like, Okay, whatever, I've had this the whole day. I'm going to look at the Facebook group. And it seems based on vibes that Sir Midnight is pulling ahead. But there have been several new additions to the mayoral race. And so she clicks through to the pet mayor's page. And she's scrolling through when she notices something. There on the page is Wolfgang.

Oh.

And it has his name and it has her name, and it has a little bio that says that Wolfgang loves hiking.

That certainly can't be true, though.

He can't walk in a straight line.

Right.

And Talia is like, I did not submit this. I would never say that Wolfgang liked hiking. Who submitted this? What do you do here?

I mean, this is what's hard about it, because, again, in the same way that correcting someone on a meme, like, implicates you in a conversation that you may not want to be implicated in, it feels like Talia has made her decision that she and Wolfgang will stay outside of this process. Obviously, someone jumped her into it, but now there's nothing that you can do to extricate yourself that doesn't involve getting more and more... Is political intrigue the right word here, getting... It doesn't leave you knee-deep in this political intrigue.

Talia is right in line with you. She's like, I am not thrilled about Wolfgang being on this page and being submitted. She's like, But probably it's just because he's so cute that someone submitted him out of love. She's like, And there are a ton of other weird pets on this page, like turtles and birds and all sorts of things that could be pet mayor. So she's like, I'm not concerned about this.

But there's a risk there, too. Obviously, you don't want to be texting your buddies to be like, hey, did you run my fucking pet for mayor? But also, again, as soon as you start doing it, then you're doing it. So as somebody who is profoundly lazy in many ways, there's a part of me that would be like, all right, well, let's see what happens here. The easy way out, maybe it winds up with your pet being mayor, but it also just not doing anything doesn't require you to do anything.

Then in July, the local news releases its second straw poll with two months till Election Day, it says, Sir Midnight the Iguana is leading the poll results with 65 %.

That's a commanding lead.

Caddy, the Husky, has 35 %. But Wolfgang has five %.

So Wolfgang is in not even a spoiler role. This is like a protest vote for people that have issues one way or the other. Still, there's a risk there. I understand that concern. But again, as somebody who likes to stay out of things, I'd be like, Oh, well, it's five %. He's not going to win, right? Although... Okay, go on.

Talia is like, How did Wolfgang get five % of this vote? She's like, I'm not campaigning. He's just on this page. How did he do this? So she goes to the Facebook page and she searches her dog's name, and she finds a post from someone who has posted Wolfgang's photo and bio and been like, This is the most ugly, cute dog I've ever seen.

Which again, ordinarily is the thing that as the parent of an ugly dog, you'd be like, Thank you. He really appreciates that.

Yes. Talia is like, Wow, that's so true. He is an.

Ugly, cute dog. His eyes stick out so much.

But then she looks at the comment and all of these people are saluting, like, I pledge my allegiance to Wolfgang because he's ugly cute and I want to see him at events.

So she's finding out that her dog's got shooters. Her dog has a team that she did not authorize.

Yes. All right. So now, even though she shouldn't care, she's like, Uh-oh, I'm now in a dangerous position where Wolfgang is a grassroots movement that I did not approve.

Many such cases for candidates where you suddenly find yourself beholden to a base that you didn't really consciously cultivate. Most of the people that have that happen to them, though, are awful people that want to be in office and not dogs that sleep for 19 hours a day.

Yes. Because of this, Talia is like, Oh, I need to pay extra special close attention to what's happening in this mayoral race lest my dog be elected pet mayor. So she is very up on the drama. First, people are mad because Junkle Redd is posting another bad meme every single day. Then they're mad because he is mad that only people get mad when he posts. Then someone accuses Junkle Redd of running a dirty campaign.

Like of going negative?

Yes. And then Junkle Redd accuses Sir Midnight of slandering him.

So I want to be fair to all parties involved here, although I know that probably the smarter move is to be incredibly unfair to all parties involved, not just for podcast purposes either. It's pretty deranged just at baseline here. I feel compelled to ask, has Sir Midnight slandered Cadillac at all?

Very good question. So not directly.

Okay. Well, yeah, that's how your good candidates do it.

And no one is really sure what Junkle Red is talking about, right? Everyone's like, it's a guess, it's possible. But they all hate Junkle Red. Because of this slew of events, the moderators ban campaigning within the group.

Smart. But it is weird to have there be a no politics rule in your Facebook group, but it's entirely about things that have four legs.

Yes. All right. This obviously does not help because before, Uncle Redd could post. Now he is being suppressed and he is.

Being silenced. Silenced. His speech is being... Yeah, this is terrible. I mean, whatever, I can feel sympathetic in the way that I feel like there's politics and everything. You write about baseball and you're really writing about capitalism, or you write about a movie, but you're really writing about the culture that produced the movie. That's probably harder with an election where all the competitors are pets. But I feel like there's... Like, Junkle Redd could make that case.

Yes, and he does. Almost overnight, Junkle Redd installs, I would say, maybe public art.

Exhibits.

Around the town, where at every major intersection, he plants car hoods in the ground. And on one side, he has painted pictures of Cadillac. And on the other side, he has spraypainted vote caddy.

I mean, I would give him some credit for not going negative because I had this idea about being like, What do we really know about those ads where the image abruptly turns black and white and it's too much in. I get white. I do think that said, you can't... With the power of having a lot of large format metal garbage on your property comes a certain amount of responsibility. You have to keep it there.

Oh, so you don't like this?

I mean, I respect it, but I don't like it, if that makes sense. I feel like it's really good that he's advocating for his dog the way that he is. But also, I feel like the way he's advocating for his dog is bad.

Yes, this creates chaos in the Facebook group because the question is, is this an inventive way to campaign? Or is this vandalism? Yeah. But Junkle Redd isn't allowed to post anymore. So in order to defend himself and continue to campaign for Cadillac, he and Cadillac are now everywhere all the time.

Oh, gosh. They're just retail politics.

Yes. They are at the bar, Cadillac is yelling. They're at church, Cadillac is not yelling. They're at a restaurant opening. Cadillac is yelling.

They're at every meeting for the fair, and it's planning. At some of them, Cadillac.

Is yelling. I mean, it can't be helped. And yet at the same time, it could be helped. I was going to say, if you bring your dog to this... Let me amend that statement. If you bring your large howling wolf to shit, it might howl at the shit that you bring it to. That'd be one way to avoid that scenario would be to not bring your dog everywhere. Yeah.

In August, few weeks before the election, someone posts to the town Facebook group. Two photos. One of them is a picture of Caddy from a restaurant opening on the main street. One of them is a photo of Caddy at a city council meeting. The text with these photos reads, restaurant opening, colon, August fourth, 07:00 PM. City council meeting, August fourth, 07:00 PM.

Nice.

17 question marks.

So the concern here is that not just that Junkle Red is running a dirty campaign, but that possibly this is like we're in second shooter, grassy Noel. Is there another dog that's like. This is happening at different places across town? Yes. Intriguing. Go on.

The accusation here is that there is more than one catty. And this rapidly evolves. People are like, wow, catty has been everywhere. Why does catty only yell sometimes?

It's a good question, though.

Could it be that one catty yells and one is quiet?

This feels a little flat, earth, Matthew-ey to me, I'm going to be honest with you. I feel like I'm seeing his fingerprints on this. And yet I feel like these are totally valid questions. So how is Junkle Redd going to answer these accusations? This is the test of a campaign, I think.

Yes. Everyone is like, is Junkle Redd pulling some weird husky parent trap where he's sending all these Huskies out into.

The world? You got to ask the question, right?

Junkle Redd posts to the Facebook group. He says, I thought campaigning wasn't allowed in here.

Oh, well, well, well.

Then he posts again and is like, if anyone wants to come over to my house and look through all my stuff, you can see that there's only one husky here.

Cadillac has nothing to hide.

Exactly. Vacally. The moderators lock the comments on both of these posts. This does not assuage anyone.

No, it never does. I was going to say, I mean, there's no way to be a good moderator in a scenario like this. But once the question of the second husky is in the air, you have to let people have it out.

I feel like. Yeah, they got to hash it out. They got to figure it out whether there's one husky or two huskies. Then one week out from the election, someone posts an article that says that when IGuanas are stressed, they can bite people.

See, that's dirty pool. That's what I was expecting from the negative campaigning thing.

No one mentioned Sir Binnight in this post, but everyone knows it's about him because the post is added by an anonymous account titled Mothers Against IGUANA Mayors. What you may notice has an acronym, MAME.

Yeah. In again, we've been over the fact that everybody involved in this needs to just be powered down for a little while. Be normal. Just takes some time to work on their shit. And yet at the same time, MAME is not even really a forced acronym. I guess you'd have to see that the people involve their mothers, but solid. It works.

Yeah. Do you believe that this is APA research being deployed against Sermondite?

It absolutely feels like that, right? I think there are probably are valid concerns about getting bit by IGuanas. I didn't realize that I myself had those concerns until just now. Now I do.

Well, you are afraid of alligators.

Yeah, right. That's because I saw alligators when I was a kid. I'd never been pursued by an maguana. It's not too late. Yeah, what I was going to say? I got a lot of living to do. This feels almost like beyond the Junkle Red method because it seems like his type of politics and campaigning has been very old fashioned, pressed the flesh, put your dog on a float at the July fourth parade type version of doing it. Whereas this has more of a contemporary campaign, like a political action committee would have put this ad up.

What do you think the effect of this is going to be?

I mean, I think whatever validity there is to the argument of someone could get bit at the sushi restaurant if an maguana is there.

.

And stressed. Yes. Which any of us who in this position of action have a responsibility, like I'm getting stressed out just thinking about it. But the idea of... Cadillac's negatives are known, which is that he never shuts up and he makes wolf sounds everywhere he goes. He probably sheds, but that's secondary. So at this point, I feel like it would reflect negatively on the campaign that is trying to bury its own known weaknesses by accentuating the weaknesses of the other. I think it seems like in poor taste, I guess.

Are you saying when they go low, we go high?

I know from actual politics with people in it that that shit does not absolutely, categorically does not work. I want to believe that a pure democracy is possible when there's pets involved and the height of the stakes are like, you get wheeled out at a restaurant.

The next day, Sir Midnight's owner posts to the group a statement which reads, I nominated Sir Midnight for mayor because I thought it would be funny. But this is dirty campaigning and I will not stand for it. Sir Midnight is withdrawing from the race.

Terrible. They went low and Sir Midnight just absolutely dropped out of public life.

He got hit one time and he's knocked out. He's done.

How many good candidates have we lost for more not exactly the same reasons because they're not usually biting, but for the same reasons? It's terrible to think about.

Sir Midnight's owner also, in this statement, announced that Sir Midnight will be endorsing Wolfgang for May. No.

I should have been able to anticipate this, and I absolutely did not. I was like, Well, at least Wolfgains got nothing to do with this shit. Nope, CZ has got fucking jumped in to the campaign now. Terrible.

The delegates have been released.

This is.

Not good.

If I'm Talia, I'm freaking out at this. Talia is.

Freaking out. She's like, I know that politics is a vibes-based sport, and I know that the week before elections matters. And now, right here in the week before elections, the vibes are turning for Wolfgang, who I do not want to be mayor.

This is worrying. And also, she's not in charge of the campaign. She can't do a thing about it. It's all the Wolfgang sickos are completely in command of the dialog now.

But she's like, I'm not in charge of this, and I don't want Wolfgang to be mayor. But she's also a little conflicted because she's like, I also don't want Cadillac and perhaps his secret twin, Buick, to be mayor. Yeah, this.

Is tough. So do you take one for the civil society here?

She goes to drinks with her friend, and she's like, I'm really stressed. And her friend is like, Why are you so stressed? Wolf king seems to be doing really well in the polls. Everyone's calling him ugly, cute. It seems like he might win. And Talia is like, I don't want my dog to be mayor. And the friend is like, You don't? And Talia is like, No, I don't want to write the column. And her friend is like, That's so weird because Sir Midnight, the Aguana's owner keeps telling everyone that you really want Wolfgang to be mayor.

No, man, come on. Wait, so Wolfgang was a stalking horse candidate? There's a lot of machinations here that I had not... And I'm a listener to this podcast. There's just a lot of stuff going on. Go on.

What are you do?

I mean, at this point, you have to reach out to the formerly deactivated Sir Midnight campaign and be like, explain to me your values now.

You're going to call him? How are you going to make this man explain his values to you?

Well, you're talking to the person now. I think that it would be like, hey, could you rescind your endorsement or otherwise explain to me how you reached? I guess that probably Sir Midnight was just like, who else is polling? I don't want anything to do with this. All right, fine. The Chihuahua whose eyes stick out. But you need to talk to a person, basically. Yes. Because the pets don't know that any of this is happening. They can't say anything. Right. Yeah, you can't get there with them.

Talia drives to Sir Midnight's house. She knocks on the door. Sir Midnight's owner answers and is like, What's up, Talia? And she's like, Why would you tell people that I wanted Wolf Gane to be mayor? And Sir Midnight, the Aguana's owner is like, listen, we were concerned.

The first person in a row was crazy. Because it suggests that this is a conversation that the person had with the Iguana.

Or the Iguana's.

Whole campaign. Right. Yeah, the whole team, the outreach director.

The PR team. You got.

To figure it out. You've got to figure it out.

So midnight the Aquana's owner is like, Listen, I know that you didn't want Wolfgang to be mayor, but he's a cute dog that a lot of people like. He's ugly cute. The thing is, we were really concerned that Cadillac would run away with the election because people love dogs. And the dog vote is too strong, and it had to be split.

This is Oliver Stone grade review, especially because it's happening in the form of a grandeose monolog being given by a mysterious guy under what I can only assume is dramatic lighting. This is different in terms of the content, but not different in terms of the general shape of the long Donald Sutherlin monolog in JFK, where he was like, The CIA could not permit this to happen. We're now at least starting to get a sense of who's behind everything.

She's like, So you nominated my dog for pet mayor.

Without my consent.

Because you wanted to split the dog vote? And this guy is like, I'm so sorry. I really didn't think your dog could win. I thought this was innocuous. And Talia is like, James Carville. Your name was right.

What's crazy about this is that this person is calculating enough and dedicated enough to do all of this to run a stalking horse camp, a spoiler campaign for a dog-.

Who's.

Ugly cute. Yes. I think it's important to underline, yes, it's a very ugly and cute dog. But the moment that they got hit in the mouth by negative campaigning, they were like, Actually, I was wrong. I don't want anything to do with this.

Yes. Because Talia is so mad and she's like, How dare you? And Sir Mindy to the Aguana's owner is like, Well, are you just going to let Junkle Reds maybe two dogs be dog mayor? And Talia's like, That's not my business. I don't care. Why did you endorse Wolfgang if you don't want a dog to be mayor?

It's a good question.

And Sir Mindy to the Aguana's owner, he's like, Well, Wolfgang was the only other person with percentage points.

Terrible. I mean, that doesn't excuse it. Even though politically, it is probably the right move. You have to respect it. I don't like it, but goddamn if I don't respect it. It is.

Like- I tell you what, that's smart.

Campaign right there. It is. The person's instincts are both very, very bad and then in this one narrow way, unassailably good.

Yeah.

That said, it's like, what do you do? Unless you want to write that column, and I think you and I can both vibe with somebody who's like, I really, really don't want to write a blog.

Misses.

Deadlines. I was going to say both of our cases, whatever it takes so I don't have to write 400 words about conserving water. But if that's the case, you have to drop out. But you never got in in the first place. I don't even know. So you'd have to ask them. But obviously, this person has shown their willingness to do whatever it takes.

Talia goes back and talks to her friend, and she's like, What do I do? And her friend is like, Well, the thing is you do really like to go to restaurants. Her friend's like, And because this is all happening because she's at died, you're only inheriting one year of the term. So it's just one year, which means you'd only have to write three columns.

These are good points.

And Talia is like, The.

Concern with this, though, and I can definitely see going forward, what if everybody loves Wolfgang as mayor? And then Wolfgang is serving the President for life role?

Yes. Talia decides she will campaign.

Wow.

She has five days. How do you campaign your dog for mayor with five days until the election when you cannot post in the Facebook group? People do not like Cadillac, hood, advertisements, and they also don't like memes.

Well, I mean, they might like if you use the memes right, but we're not going to... It's not about that. Unfortunately, I think this means you have to take your roomy chihuahua out and meet the general public, which is exactly what she did not want to do. But some things are more important. Democracy matters.

You've got to meet some real Americans. You've got to sit at a diner.

Go to a State Fair, eat something on a stick.

Yeah, Wolfgang's got to do shaking hands. He's got to do his little trick, pop.

Shaking hands in this case. I was going to say like, this is actually the most whatever. It's the most adorable version of that. I would not let the dog kiss a baby, but I would maybe let it lick appear or whatever. Yeah, anyway, go on.

Yeah, Talia is having people take their photos with Wolfgang sticking their tongue out like him. She's like, This will work for sure. But she's like, The thing is, Wolfgang, he needs crucial endorsements. He has to work very hard.

Yeah. All right. So how do you do that in five days? Is she just committing to staying awake.

For five straight days? She is committing to staying awake. She goes door to door. This is shoe leather work. She's getting out there. She's making friends. She's kissing a baby. She's letting people hold her dog.

She's letting Flat Earth Matthew regale her with his theories.

Yes. She's giving Wolfgang a little meat treat every day like, Thank you for your work. Good job, buddy. Election Day is now.

Upon us. Yeah, I'm on the edge of my damn seat.

Cadillac has the support of Maim, the Big Dog Alliance, United Metalworkers, the Teamsters, the Uptown Branch of the library, and the police union.

Well, that last bit is inevitable, right? But yes. All right. So these are powerful factions, but I want to believe that people power, which Wolf King seems to have on his side, could maybe... Well, tell me what happens.

Wolf king has the support of Planned Parenthood, the Teachers Union, Small Dog Alliance, Mrs. Harrison's third grade class, the downtown branch of the library and a weird glass blowing shop.

Again, powerful factions.

How do you feel about Wolf king's chances?

So my concern as somebody who has hoped for candidates that were in bad situations, drawing dead, registration deficits, all of these sorts of things, I want to believe, but I also know that that much time on the trail, that much name recognition, it's a lot to overcome. But I feel like the thing that we keep coming back to where Wolfgang is concerned is that the dog is both very misbegotten and very cute. Yeah. And Cadillac might be annoying, right?

He's.

Always yelling. Yeah. So I have to think it's possible.

Day of the election. Cadillac and Junkle Redd go to the Uptown branch of the library. Wolfgang and Talia go to the downtown branch of the library. They are passing out little pieces of paper with links on them reminding people to vote because obviously you vote online for this election. The polls close at midnight. The next morning, it is announced that third midnight, who you may remember.

Dropped out.

Got 72 votes anyway. Wolfgang received 118 votes. Cadillac received 328 votes. You asked me a question at the top of this story. Do you remember what it was?

I don't. Tell me, what did I get right that I've since forgotten? No.

You asked, are people outside of this town allowed to vote?

Oh, no.

And do you remember the answer?

Yes, they're not. And yet I'm getting the sense that there could have been some corruption... We're back on George Santos at this point. So what happened?

Allegations emerge.

As.

Well they might. That Junkle Redd has been sending texts with the link to the poll to people outside the town, which means we have a recount. Oh, gosh. The vote goes to a recount. We must consider the email addresses that people put in. We must make sure they have residency within the town. By the end of the day, they have found the official results. Sermintnight, who had dropped out, got 72 votes. Wolfgang received 111 votes, so seven votes were removed.

Okay.

Cadillac received only 121 votes.

Wow, paper tiger.

But that means that he's still won.

Yeah, boy, that is... I mean, it's deflating. As long as you forget the fact that Talia didn't really want her dog to be mayor in the first place. It's funny, though, because I want to see the process work the way that I want it to work. At this point, I want that poor chihuahua to be mayor. Yeah, wolf king for Mayor.

Yeah, Wolf Gang for Mayor. We are almost at the end of this story. Whose side are you on and how do you feel?

I feel like I'm opposed to Junkle Red's tactics, and yet I feel like I need to take myself outside of the flow of this story, which has been really pulling me more towards the wolf gang side of things I want to see.

Yes, it's important to consider bias.

Yeah, and for the community, I think it would be important to have a dog that can't walk good as its mayor. I think that would be great. But at the same time, I feel like I have turned against... If you were to tell me there's a man, he lives in the desert, he's always welding weird shit together, and he has a wolf that lives with him, and the wolf never shuts up. Yeah. I would party with that guy. He seems fun. That seems okay. And so maybe in some ways you do got to hand it to Junkle Red. Is that fair?

Some people might say that you do got to hand it to them.

Yeah. That said, I don't approve of the tactics. I don't approve of going negative on the iguana. There's a lot of stuff in there that I feel like it's not the conduct you want to see in an election like this.

Yeah. Cadillac did become the pet mayor. Talia's intuition was right in that he yelled all the time.

It's clearly unsuit for office.

Yeah. At his inauguration ceremony, he yelled so much that they had to cut the mic and he had to be sworn in in silence. Would you like my final updates?

Yeah. I was going to ask. There's a second election coming. This was just a special election.

Yes, very good memory. Cadillac served his special election year very happily, but Junklehead hated doing the column. So at the end of Cadillac's stint, Junklehead did not run him again.

If elected, I will not serve. This is a stand on principle. I like that. I also like that all of this is about how shitty blogging is.

Yeah, it is. And that's true to us and everyone. One candidate ran for mayor the year after Cadillac because Cheezet's owner got another goldfish. Okay. And this goldfish won the next campaign easily. And last year, the city swore in cheese Wit as its official fifth mayor.

It's for the best. I mean, in some ways, it's frustrating. It's like the same families producing leaders over and over again.

Yeah.

And that's frustrating in some ways. But at the same time, I feel like this is the version that everybody... It's the quietest and least deranged outcome, which I feel like in general, in elections is to be hoped for.

I do have one final update for you, which is that the precedents set during the Cadillac Wolf Gang, Sir Midnight the Iguana election year, led to a little bit of dirty work in the future. And so during the campaign of Cheesewit, some digging revealed a lie.

A lie about?

The original Cheeset, who served five terms as pet.

Mayor- Oh, wait.

-was actually-.

Six different cheeses. Four goldfish. I knew that that was because there was a part of it where... Obviously, I know that the pet mayor does not make laws or whatever, but if the goldfish has figured out how to outperform the average goldfish lifespan by a factor of whatever, 10, then I was like, I would vote for that fish for any office.

Yeah.

God, it's a dirty business, isn't it? Politics.

It's dirty, which means that Cheesewit was the fifth Cheeset dynasty.

You got to respect it. You don't have to like it, but God damn, you got to respect it.

Roth, thank you so much for coming to the podcast. It was a pleasure to.

Have you. Thank you for blowing my mind and expanding my understanding of the possibilities of democracy. And also for having me, that was great. Appreciate it.

Thank you for listening to Normal Gospels. If you have a gossip story to share with us, email us at normalgossip@defector. Com. Or you can leave us a voicemail at 2-6-7-9, gossip. If you love this podcast and want us to keep making it, become a friend or a friend of a friend at supportnormalgossip. Com. You can follow the show on Instagram and TikTok @normalgossip. You can follow Kelsey on all social media @rakiniKelsey. This podcast was produced by Alex Su-Jong-Loughlin. Justin Ellis is Defectors Projects Editor. Jasmine Wang and Sean Kuhn are Defectors Business Guys. Tom Lay is our editor-in-chief. J. Tolviera is our Associate Producer. Abigail Segel is our intern. Dan Mcquade runs our merch store, which you can find at normalgossip. Store. Tara Jacobi designed our show art. Thanks to the rest of the Defector staff. Defecter Media is a collectively owned, subscriber based media company. Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radiotopia. Normal Gossip is hosted by Kelsey McKinney. I'm Emma, and remember, you did not hear this from me.

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