This week on Unexplainable, we investigate a surprisingly tricky question. Is it possible ice cream could be good for you? When I saw the number, I was like, I just literally screamed at my computer screen. I was like a little too on the nose. I'm screaming for ice cream somehow. It literally made me just squawk. This finding keeps popping up in studies, which made us wonder, what does good for you even mean? This week on Unexplainable, The Ice Cream Effect. New episodes every Wednesday. Follow Unexplainable wherever you listen.

If you ask the experts, the economy is in pretty good shape. Unemployment is low and inflation is slowing. But you might not feel that good news in your wallet.

A lot of people, a lot of voters, a lot of consumers, a lot of everyday people will say that the economy is on the wrong track. Why is that? It's one of those things that has so many plausible answers it's really hard to distinguish among them.

I'm John Glenn Hill, and this week on The Weeds, why everything is so expensive, and.

When.

Or if those prices will ever come down. New episodes every Wednesday. Hi, everyone. I'm Cara Swisher.

And I'm Scott Galloway.

And this is an emergency crossover episode of Pivot and the Prof. G. Pod, because a lot of news just broke in the last few hours, especially because it's a Friday and we need to discuss it. Let's start with a story I don't think anyone saw coming. Sam Altman is out as CEO of OpenAI. This is from the board, Mr. Altman's departure follows a deliberative review process by the board, which concluded that he was not consistently candid in his communications with the board, hindering its ability to exercise its responsibilities. The board no longer has confidence in his ability to continue to lead OpenAI. Chief Technology Officer, Mirah, I think it's Maradi, is now the interim CEO. Altman himself posted on X, I love my at OpenAI. It was a transformative for me personally and hopefully the world a little bit. Most of all, I love working with such talented people, I have more to say about what's next later. Just so you know, the President and co-founder of OpenAI, Greg Brockman, posted a statement a little while ago that he is quitting following the news. As I noted in a post myself, I've done a little reporting, there are a lot more departures of top folks.

I've been hearing from them all night at OpenAI. I understand it was a misalignment of the profit versus nonprofit adherence to the company. Developer Day was an inflection point. Some people on Sam's side are calling it a coup. Other people are calling it a misalignment, as I said, or that it was getting too far away from its open nonprofit status and was moving too quickly, not thinking of safety and diversity and other issues, and that he was doing stuff without consulting them. And there was a side of the company, including its chief scientist andand another board member who were on one side and Brockman and Altman were on another. The way the board phrased it was so funny, the candid, meaning he lied. That's a word for a lie. It did leave open enormous amounts of rumors, including some very personal ones on the internet. I've been trying to chase all those down, too, because people were like, Oh, it was really this, and it was this, and I'm not even going to repeat them because I haven't been able to confirm any of them. I just don't want to go anywhere with stuff I don't know.

It sounds like this Developer Day was an issue and that maybe he was the face of AI and OpenAI. He's gotten very famous. He was just at a meeting in San Francisco with the President. He's been all over the place. As you know, I've interviewed him a bunch of times. I happen to like Sam Holtman, but I think there was a real misalignment here. Let me say one last thing, because Microsoft absolutely didn't know this was coming, and my sources say, Sachi didn't know, and the company was just minutes before they put out the press release, so they were caught unawares. I don't know. I don't know. It's really a big deal, I think. This is a big deal.

It is a big deal. And there's a lot here, and we'll know more. I think you can make an educated... There's an educated guess around what happened, but an uneducated guess around what inspired. And what likely happened is that the board found something that upset them, asked him to clarify, and then later they found that he had lied and misled them. Because for them to dismiss a CEO who has created or at least spearheaded an increase in value of $90 billion, and quite frankly, was seen as a good guy, a lot of hope, this is the most exciting new technology in probably a decade. This must have been real. Boards don't do this lightly. I would put it, if you wanted to now start handicapping the why and the uneducated guess. The personal scandal stuff, I think, is less likely because other executives are resigning. And if it had been a personal scandal thing, I think they would have thought, well, maybe I'll be the CEO, or I don't want to get anywhere near the appearance of support of this type of behavior. It would just be, and not only that, I hate to say this incorrectly probably or correctly, when you create $90 billion in shareholder value, boards have a habit of trying to wallpaper over scandal or personal scandal.

And then when.

They're- Because look, I just said, I've gotten everything from the news to some of the company. Maybe it was this, maybe it was that. You know what I mean? You can go through all of.

The possibilities. That seems less likely. What seems the most likely here is that Sam was investing in doing a side hustle, starting something that had some competitive conflict, perhaps with other people at the company. I'll just give you a scenario. Maybe at some point, OpenAI has decided we want to pull an Apple and not be dependent upon Nvidia or Intel. The way Apple was dependent upon Intel, they said, we're going to develop our own chips. Maybe OpenAI said, We have enough money now, we should develop our own chips instead of building Nigeria's business. They were developing their own chips. At the same time, Sam was working with other people and funding a chip company focused on AI and maybe wasn't as forthcoming about his activities as the board would have liked. They feel like, boss, you can't have your cake and eat it too, and dismissed him. The notion around the semantics around the split between profit and nonprofit, I find that unlikely because there's so much money here.

Yeah, just so you know, OpenAI was exploring making its own chips.

But I'm using that as an example Yeah, that's actually true. -starting another generative AI company. Who knows, right?

Yeah, he's got a lot of other interests, including fusion, energy, all kinds of things.

But the board doing this, I was sat in the sense that I was hoping this guy was going to be the anti-Elon and present a more optimistic, aspirational, and quite frankly, just responsible, masculine, mature version of what it means to be a business leader. I was disappointed that he was arrested. It's a victory for corporate governance, though, because boards.

The whole point- Well, if that's what he did, if they just had a misalignment about profit versus nonprofit, then it's a little funnier, right? Don't you find it?

I personally think that the whole point of corporate governance and governance in general, whether it's the Congress or whether it's board of directors, is that we have figured out that when individuals aggregate a lot of power, it begins to corrupt their thinking and that they can become dangerous and make bad decisions that are bad for stakeholders. So we create governance. Governance is meant to prevent a tragedy of the commons, protect shareholders, and act as fiduciaries, and do something wonderful, and that is tap into our advantages as a species and cooperate with each other and learn from one another. And when you have no board, no governance, no fiduciary-share responsibility. I get it. It goes bad places. So I think this is actually, in.

My view- What if he's not wrong about the direction? The Developer Day was very exciting and everything else. Maybe they're just a bad board. Maybe they're an experienced board. Maybe they made the wrong decision. This press release feels stupid to me, unless the way they phrased it left them open to all kinds of problems.

And we have bad referees in the Premier League, and on the whole, it's the way to govern the game.

Of course, but what if it's just a bad board and they just had a fight and one side beat the other. That doesn't make them a good government at all. I'd have to push back on this from my reporting.

I would bet when the news comes out, I just find it highly unlikely that a group of people governing a company that had increased 90 billion in value.

I.

Can't imagine they wanted to do this, Cara. I think we're going to find there was.

Real reason here. I don't know if they didn't like the direction of the company, if they thought he was too organized around profit, if they didn't like how the developer day, which again, several people on both sides said it was an inflection point of tension. So it's just a direction thing. So no, I think they could do that. That just happened on boards. We're not going to go this way and not this way, and one side tends to win.

Boards make bad decisions all the time. When you're outsting the CEO of a company that, as I said, has created this amount of economic value, and there's enough to go around for everyone, for the nonprofit side, the profit side, they're all making a shit ton of money, and they decided to.

Fire him? Well, not Sam Alton, and he doesn't own very much.

Of it. Well, okay, better yet. But I got to think there's a there, there here. This is pretty dramatic.

Yeah, it is. But maybe it's just that. It's a difference of the direction of the company. And he was going a different direction and just not heeding them, right? And that's a problem, of course, because they're a board as a board as a board, right? Maybe he was taking a direction and just wasn't dialing them in to it.

I would not blame a young man in this environment who creates tens of billions of dollars of thinking, I can do whatever the fuck I want.

Yes, that's correct. Because the.

Role model here does whatever the fuck he wants and totally ignores his board. He has no board. And so I wouldn't find it unusual to find out that the CEO was ignoring everything the board told him he could or could not do. Right. We'll find out. But this is... I mean, I was flummixed by this.

I was totally shocked. I found the board needed to be much more transparent, and he's got to make a statement too. Now it's like- Of course, truth is going to come out. -only because there's so much. In several articles previously, he's got a sister who's making all those kinds of allegations against him, which has been out for a while. I'm not even going to go through them right now. I did run that down, too. People told me it had nothing to do with it. They've got to be more clear. This is the zeitgeist company of the moment. And if they're not clear and transparent and their statement, I'm sorry, I thought it was clawdish. Like, what? What does that mean? What did he lie about? You can't just be unspecific. If there was a real problem, they should have been, we've hired an outside law firm to do an investigation. They were so unspecific that it left everything open. And you cannot do that. It gives me the impression that this company doesn't... The board of the company or the one that won doesn't understand the impact this company is having or something. It seems like a very inexperienced board, and I think it is.

Within a couple of hours, it's probably happening. Both sides are going to go on background and try and spin it to their advantage. Yes. We're going to find outwe're going to find out what happened here, but this is... I mean, I was totally shocked. I got to be honest, though. I do like the fact that this will send a signal to CEOs that everyone has a boss and boards matter.

I think it's going to send a signal if it's just a matter of these disagreements over the direction of the company that Sam Alman is going to be funded tomorrow. And all these people have left. All these people are leaving OpenAI will go with him and they will just reformat. We've done this before. We leave and go to things. And it's never as juicy as it is inside. It's usually just a misalignment. It is.

Indeed a misalignment. But you just said you just offered a very realistic scenario here, and that is he's not getting funded tomorrow. He was funded several months ago to do something competitive and didn't disclose it. I have no evidence of that. I just can't imagine this board would say, Okay, this thing is a rocket ship. It's going to create enough value to solve a lot of problems, nonprofit, for-profit. But this guy, he just don't fire a CEO on a company that's creating this type of value.

No. And if it's a personal thing, they should have said we're doing an investigation right away. They should have said it in a statement. I don't think that's the case, but it.

Left it open. Because would the President leave with them the same day? It feels like.

They're all working on something together. I know that. No, I don't think that, but I think that they should have been more clear. This statement is clotish to the extreme. I just was like, You're leaving. What happened here? You can't be this unspecific and yet say a word like not candid. What does that mean? They were specific and deeply unspecific, leaving them open to all kinds of crazy rumors, all kinds of speculation, and pretending it's not the most important company AI. And then, surprising Microsoft, their big partner and their big funder. Are you kidding me? Microsoft should have known days in advance what was happening. They had no-.

Sachi looks stupid. He was on stage with them last week.

No, Saatchi didn't know.

Let me just say- And that's my point.

Saatchi didn't know. So that means something's wrong with this board. That's my feeling. I think that's fair. I think that's fair. Or something with his governance. You don't tell Saatchi and Adela. You do not surprised Sacha Nadella. That's my feeling. Someone who's giving you billions and billions of dollars in investment. They're going to pull it. They've got their product, but.

I don't know. When you're building this value and all the things you just talked about, we got Microsoft as a partner. He was on stage with the CO. I think there's a lot of reasons to not fire him, and they decided to fire him in a pretty unceremonial fashion.

Maybe there was an article being worked on, and I don't know. I would like them to be specific. If it's a really serious, personal thing, you need to say we're doing an investigation. If it's not, you need to be more clear. It's really left it far too open. It's really badly done. Badly done, let's just say, poorly done. I'm also getting a bunch of theories from very smart people in Silicon Valley via text live as we talk. One theory from one person who actually does know quite a bit about this board is that he called them effective altruists. They're very much more oriented towards nonprofit ideas of what ChatGPT should be versus a commercial operation. So interesting. A lot of the board, in fact, when you look at it, is in that direction. I don't know if it's effective altruism, but it's definitely much more. It's a crunchier group of people, I would say.

Yeah. So that sounds like one viable door number three here, but I just would have been shocked they couldn't figure it out given the amount of money that's being created, that they couldn't have figured out a way to say, Okay, we'll 10 billion to build parks and homes for veterans. I would have just thought they would have tried to figure this out.

Yeah. Well, I had a very smart person also just texted me, my boring version bored. Don't launch GPT Store until it's safe. Sam, okay. Also, Sam, we launched GPT Store. Yeah.

And it goes back to the notion that you wouldn't be surprised, nor could you, I don't want to say blame Sam Alman, but when he looks around and says, Oh, people of my genius and my shareholder value creation can do whatever the fuck I want. The board is just there to rubber stamp it. Full stop.

Well, we'll enjoy his new company, Closed AI. There you go. Anyway, it's not just OpenAI making news. Elon Musk and X are dealing with a Firestorm. Yet again, this follows Elon's comments on X endorsing in anti-Semitic conspiracy theory by saying, It's the actual truth. Usually, he goes, Interesting, or something like this. But now he said this is the actual truth, which was a trope around Jewish people having a dialectical something or other hatred, a dialectical hatred of white people and trying to replace them by bringing immigrants into this company. It's one of the most more heinous anti-Semitic tropes, replacement theory. Yeah, replacement theory. So he did that, and major advert... And then Linda Yacarino, the pain sponge, was trying to dial it back by saying, we don't agree with this at all, but never mentioned her the CTO because the call is coming from inside the house. Major advertisers on X are now cutting off their spending. Companies are pulling back, including Disney, Warner Brothers, Discovery, Lion's Gate, Apple, and IBM. I've heard from a half dozen more who are pulling, just calling me saying we're going to pull too. Even Comcast, NBCUniversal, paused advertising.

That's Linda Carenna's former employers, where she was head of advertising. It's been a deluge in the last few hours. The White House has also chimed in and condemned Musk for boosting anti-Jewish conspiracy theory. The White House spokesman said it was, quote, unacceptable to repeat the hideous lie behind the most fatal act of anti-Semitism in American history at any time, let alone one month after the deadliest day for the Jewish people since the Holocaust. He's trying to dial it back by saying he's going to kick off everyone who says things like, from the river to.

The sea. The colonization, yeah.

-decolonization. And he's saying genocide is not acceptable. Thank you, Elon. Who is on the genocide side, except for the genocide-ers? It was so ridiculous. What a.

Ridiculous joke he's become. Yeah, it's easier to speculate what happened here, and that is- Okay, go right ahead. Please do. Well, the guy gets home late, is ridiculously high, and the real Elon comes out, the angry, whatever. I got a lot of pushback for calling him an anti-Semite. I think he's absolutely an anti-Semite. And then he says this, and advertisers start falling, withdrawing like crazy, including pretty iconic ones, Apple, IBM. Linda calls him and says, You're going to have to put more money into the company. And all of a sudden, he's like, Uh-oh. And then he starts backpedaling. And it's so ridiculous for him to say, We will not tolerate this hate speech unless you're high on ketamine and own the company, and at 4:00 in the morning, start tweeting out anti-Semitic tweets. I mean, it was just so ridiculous for him then to pretend that he's a warrior against these hateful terms. Also, I've got to be honest, I'm heartened by this because I have been really disappointed that more people have not been more robust, strong, pushing back on anti-Semitic comments.

Well, no well-known people have, no other billionaires. Can I just make this point? I gave him a hard time. Bill Ackman, who's beating up on college students, who let's just say probably don't have good judgment, has not word one about this.

About Twitter and Elon?

About Elon. Not word one. No, we don't want to- Here he is, like doxing kids. I'm sorry, these kids are stupid, and there's not that many of them that are that stupid. 100 %. Some of them just are calling for a ceasefire, and they can do that in America. Like, we may or agree or not agree with them, but this guy was trying to dog them, and then he has not a word for this, which is such an obvious thing. Nobody does. None of them do.

The finance community has a lot of leadership that's Jewish whose parents are Holocaust survivors.

They are.

They don't come out against Twitter because or they want to be involved in SpaceX's IPO. Exactly.

Hey, Bill Ackman.

Come on, Bill. Here's the reality. 90 years ago, we didn't speak up enough, and it's happening again. So organizations, people, customers, financiers, and just general US citizens need to speak up and say, I'm selling my fucking Tesla. I am not going on Twitter.

Some of Tesla's backers are doing that right now. But let me say, tell me why they can go after students like this. And you could have disagree with these students and say they're acting badly and whatever, and then say nothing. Please explain that to me how you can punch down but not up.

You're 100 % correct. And not only that.

Quite frankly- I don't want you to explain it to me since you worked with these terrible people.

Since I worked? No, it's indefensible. Not only that, these people should be held to a higher standard than students because they should know better. They are responsible for the livelihoods of other companies. They have enormous influence. When you're a 19-year-old, where your prefrontal cortex is still evolving and you're pushing the limits as a function of growth and evolution, you're pushing the limits and the boundaries, which is natural, that's part of growth. And you say something stupid, we provide young people with a bit of a hallpass. I have said there's a difference between free speech and hate speech. And if a student is saying hateful things, I think he or she should be- Violence? 100%. -incenting violence should be brought in front of a student board and even maybe just suspended and have to call their parents and say, This is why you're paying for me to be at school, and I was suspended. I think that's a learning moment. But when you're the wealthiest man in the world and you're responsible for employees and you have dramatic influence over the behavior you set a role model for young men, and you start talking about retweeting things about replacement theory, that's totally fucking unacceptable.

What I find just so upsetting is not as many people as I would have thought nor hoped have said, I'm embarrassed. I wrote a biography on this guy. We are canceling the movie we were going to do on him. I am selling my Tesla. I am selling my shares. We will not be involved in any financing, wealth management, or debt offerings for any company that this individual is involved in. If we don't cauterize this shit right now, it gets out of control. I'm just incredibly shocked and disappointed that more people aren't-.

They're not going to- -aren't pushing back. They're going to make the movie. I have written lots of these people. Just so you know, I've written a lot of them. And they're just like, Well, I'm like, Well, what? Well, he doesn't mean it. I'm like, Oh, my God, it's the seventh to 10th time he's either retweeted an anti-Semitic thing, and in this case, he's now gone even further. He agrees with it, and he says he agrees with it. I was like, How many times is he going to get a pass here on this stuff from you people? Because you here... I literally am like, I'm washing my hands at you people because I just don't even understand. I do understand it now. The money, the green is what you're looking at here. And listen, Linda Yacarino, I don't know what you're going to do here, but don't. Stop going down with this ship. You better find yourself a door you can float on at some point here because this is really appalling. This is appalling. This is appalling. This is appalling. You didn't call out your own employee, by the way, the CTO of your company.

I don't know what's going to happen to her? She got to go. I've been told by people close to her that she's going to go down with the ship.

That's her attitude. She's in literally an impossible position.

She can leave.

I think she would do herself well. I'm biased here to say... She doesn't have to be this specific. If she said, look, this is a great opportunity. I don't mean to throw the company into more chaos, but I'm just personally not comfortable with some of the actions and words of the person who controls this company. I think she should get a job offer the next day.

Next day? We'd give her a job offer.

Yeah, and not only that. You know what? She already has enough money. Her kids would be proud of her when they're talking about mom. You got to think about, you know how history is going to judge you? It's never the wrong time to do the right thing, especially when you're in a position of economic security and you can afford to. I like when you say that.

I'd say that again.

What's that? It's never.

Not the economic security. It's never the?

It's never the wrong time to do the right thing. Nice. It's true.

Yeah. So where does it go? Do you think he gets another pass, like a Trumpian thing? Oh, did he.

Say that? Advertisers will fall. Now his advertising revenue will be down 80 %. And he will fund the thing because he's still the wealthiest man in the world. And all of these companies that will send out or Instagram posts about Indigenous People's Day will line up, even though they have, I won't even say a lot of Jews in their company, but claim to be concerned about bigotry and suck as cock so they can get the next IPO. This type of behavior, principals don't mean anything unless you're willing to sacrifice for them. That's correct. What I would say to the investment banks involved in constantly doing debt offerings, financing for this company, are your notions that anti-Semitic content and statements are unacceptable? Is that a principle of yours or is it just an opinion? If it's a principle, then you can't work with this guy.

Yeah, they don't. Honestly, I was only using Ackman as one of the examples. But boy, we're waiting, Bill. We're waiting for some statement because this was pretty appalling. And it was... It wasn't pretty appalling. It was appalling period. Anyway, we'll see what happens. I don't know. What's it worth now? Is it half as much?

Again, it goes back to governance. He has no boards. Any board, and this goes back to income inequality, when someone can aggregate a quarter of a trillion dollars in wealth and start buying huge influential companies and have absolutely no safeguards, the board of this company, even if it was a real board, if Tesla was a real board, they would say, You can't be on Twitter. Let me pretend I'm the hero here. I've been on boards where there's been a controlled shareholder, and we on the board have said we recommend the following, firing the CEO or not firing, whatever it might be, or doing this or not doing this. The controlled shareholder calls us and says, No, and I'm in control here. I'm the controlled shareholder. Then the board says, and this has happened to me twice, Fine, then we will resign and you can replace us. The world will know that a public company, the controlled shareholder, got in a fight with the board and the independent board directors resigned. That's what this, in my opinion, if these boards had any principles, they would say, Elon, either you stop tweeting or I'm resigning from this board.

But they all want the money. They all want to be near the innovator. They all want to be next to this cool company. These companies have no boards. They clearly don't even want to save this guy from himself. But there are things the investment banks, his board of directors can and should be doing. And instead, everyone's like, Well, everyone starts making all these excuses. And you're right. And then with these students, they want it to be one strike and you're out.

I'll tell you what I hear from, Oh, Carrie is not really anti-Semitic. I'm like, Really? Because it feels very anti-Semitic, the things he's retweeting and posting and promoting. And this is the actual truth pretty clear. Pretty clear when you're talking about replacement theory or the dialectical hatred of white people. I'm like, well, it feels... And oh, well, he does. Oh, well, they're always this is what happens. And I literally I'm now hanging up.

The phone. And this goes to this notion of this reservoir that I just didn't... The surface area of the iceberg below the surface of anti-Semitism that I had no idea existed. Let me ask you this. What if he was saying this about non-whites? How would Hollywood respond? What if he was making this... If there was the same level-.

He said it about gays. He's already been insulting to gays.

He's calling these people. I agree. He has made homophobic- And transphobic. And transphobic. But in general, what I have found is the level of tolerance for these anti-Semitic hate speech recently. If I said any of this shit about nonwhites or gay people on campus, the double standard here, enough is enough. If people need to speak out-.

So why don't you say that to Bill Ackman? Enough is enough, Bill?

Well, I think we're saying that, but let's be honest. You got to give Bill some credit.

I'm not going to give him credit because I don't want him punching down at students when he refuses to punch up.

At Elon Musk. He's calling that? Okay, but he's mostly going after the leadership of these universities.

I don't care. He should say something about Elon. This is the most famous person on the planet Earth right now. I agree with you. So come on, don't get on your high horse and then refuse to look straight at the person who has more influence than all those college heads put together. Agreed. So anyway, all right, we're going to end it there. I'm going to read some very funny. One thing that Twitter and also their ads are good at is making jokes about this. So there's a couple I want to read about Sam Alton leaving. Maybe GPT-5 is already Sentient and live and wants Sam Alton gone. This is from New York Times Pitchbot. Probably was a mistake for Sam Alton to do that TikTok about how much he loves Osama bin Laden, another one. Sam Walton was actually typing out all the ChatGPT responses himself, and the board just found out. I thought that was funny.

The one I saw that I liked was if Mike Pence had only done the right thing, so. That's good. Anyway. Yeah, this is an unfolding story, as you would say, or a.

Developing story. Developing story. So we'll see what happens. We'll see. Maybe something even more heinous will come out about Sam, something we are certain that Elon Musk will say something even more heinous, and he still won't get into trouble. That we can assure you of. Okay, Scott, we're going to wrap it up there. We'll have much more on Pivot and the Prof. J. Pod next week. I'm going to read us out because this is an emergency pod. Can you just go, Emergency. Because I want to hear you say that. I want to hear.

You say it loud. Emergency.

No, that's not an emergency.

I feel like we're in some weird sex game. You're making me uncomfortable. What's my safe word here? You're making me feel uncomfortable. Well, the board is.

Firing- You know what my safe word is? The board is firing you now, Scott.

I just want to tell you what- You know what my safe word is? I just want to tell you what-I'm not.

Telling you what to do. Okay. Scott- That's good. You've been less than candid with us about, and we're going to have to fire you now just so you know you can... Yeah. This show was produced by Neshat, Kerva, and Zoe Marcus. Brandon McFarland engineered this episode. Thanks also to Claire Miller and Drew Burrows. Thanks for listening to Pivot and the Prof G-POD from New York Magazine and Vox Media. Obviously, we'll be back soon.