Wondery subscribers can listen to. Pretty sure I can fly early and ad free right now. Join wondery in the wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Smart less. I see you grinning, Elna. I'm gonna grill you.

I'm gonna grill you. Are you actually gonna grill me?

Yes. I have lots of questions for you because you're a very peculiar person.

Thank you.

This. I don't know what you call what we're doing here today.

This is pretty sure I can fly. And this will be our very first episode. I'm Elna Baker, and you are?

Johnny Knoxville.

And what's the show about?

I have no fucking clue. It's about people who really grab life by the bungal stain, really hog wrench that spatula. And me being a fan of history, I'm inspired by those type of people, people who are the first to achieve something extraordinary in life and is against all odds, usually, and against all thought and reason of the day.

I love the idea of learning how to be brave from some of the bravest people in history. But today's episode is slightly different because we're actually. We're going to start off just by, like, getting to know each other and letting you also get to know us listeners out there in the world. And so I want to talk to you because I feel like you are one of those people.

One of what people?

The brave people.

Oh, no, no, no. I'm, uh, too lazy to work and too scared to steal.

Have you ever felt like escaping to your own desert island? Well, that's exactly what Jane, Phil, and their three kids did when they traded their english home for a tropical island they bought online. But paradise has its secrets, and family life is about to take a terrifying turn.

You don't fire at people in that area without some kind of consequence.

And he said, yes, ma'am, he's dead.

There's pure cold blooded terror running through me. From wondery, I'm Alice Levine, and this is the price of paradise, the real life story of an island dream that ends in kidnap, corruption, and murder. Search and follow. The price of paradise. Now, to listen to the full trailer.

Well, I'm gonna start by asking you some things, because I actually don't know very much about jackass.

Well, you haven't missed much, but I.

Think that's the part that's missing. And the part, like, I wanna hear all the stories of is, like, just the. Like, what it was like coming up with the stunts, how this all started. I wasn't really. We weren't allowed to have MTV well, you're better off, so I'm excited to know. Cause I really don't. Other than that, I watched a couple to prepare for this interview. I really don't know anything about jackass. So what did you watch? I watched the. I think I watched the first three episodes.

When I decided to first do this type of thing. At the time, I was dead broke. I was an actor who wasn't acting. We had a baby girl that I had to support, and that is the most fearful situations I've ever been in. It's like, I have to think of some way to support this family. And writing for magazines, doing that type of thing was my best guess at what I needed to do. Well, I'm Johnny Knoxville, United States of America, and I'll be doing low iron on self defense equipment. It was, like, 97 ish for an article for self defense equipment, stun gun, taser gun, pepper spray myself, and then I shot myself in the chest with the. 38 with a bulletproof vest on.

Oh, my God. But it was just for an article. So, like, you had no idea it was gonna be your life just for an article.

And eventually it landed at big Brother scapegoating, where Jeff Tremaine, the director of jackass, worked, and he said, well, you should film it as well. I hadn't thought of that. He goes, we'll put it in the skateboard video. And I'm like, all right, let's go. So at that point, I had boarded the train. You just have to keep feeding the beast. And, you know, what made you laugh yesterday is not really what made you laugh today, especially with me and my friends.

Yeah.

You know, and that's all we ever tried to do, is make each other laugh.

Yeah. Is it true that you could have gotten your own segment on SNL from it, like, you got offered SNL from these videos?

Yeah, it was pretty surreal because one of my favorite novels here in lowly in Las Vegas starts out in the polo lounge at the Beverly Hills hotel. And now I'm sitting in the polo lounge with this iconic figure, Lorne Michaels, and he's offering me five minutes each week to do what I do do. And. But at that point, the pilot. We were about to shoot the pilot for jackass, and it was like, well, do I go with this established thing where could work out, but I'm not gonna have any control whatsoever? Or do I take a chance on me and my dumb buddies where we'll have all the control and I chose?

I mean, that's a huge decision.

Yeah. Especially for a guy who has done nothing, booking commercials and had a little money, but not real money, I just had enough money to pay for our things.

But when you're making that, like, leap of faith, what did you have in your head? What were you imagining?

I just simply made the decision to believe in myself and my friends and what we were going to do, and it was going to be successful.

And what was the germ of the idea you were working off? You're like, okay, we're going to do stunts together. We're going to, like, what did you already know before?

Well, we knew it was going to be stunts and pranks, right?

Okay.

But, God, we didn't know if, like, I was going to be behind a desk for some portion of the show. We were kicking that around. We went up to the bull ranch, Gary Lefou's bull ranch, and I got on a bull, and beforehand, I was talking to Gary Lafue, interviewing him, but I was interviewing him kind of like a Daily show reporter would. My idea of that. And finally, my friend Dimitri, who was the camera guy who became the director of photography on the films, he's like, just talk to him as yourself. And I was like, oh, I guess it's not working. Okay, but we went to spike with Wav. Should we be behind a desk? Would we do this? Should we do that? He goes like, you're already doing the show.

The scene that got me is when you have a boner in public and you're just, like, going into the gym, talking to people, playing basketball, getting shoes tried on, and you just don't care that everyone is super uncomfortable and watching you and, I mean, I was watching that and I was like, I think, I don't know why this is getting to me so hard, but it's like, maybe something my dream would be to, like, be confident enough to have a boner in public.

Okay, well, I want to help you get there. Believe me, I do. But that was. It's very frightening, of course, because, like, you want to keep it contained. Like, I had my head on swivel. Like, I didn't, like, if I see any kids coming or anything, like, I would get it out of my, you know, I just. Walking into those situations where you're doing that, it's very frightening. But you just, again, gave myself a deadline. This is what I'm doing today. You know, people think I'm fearless, but I'm not fearless. I can. I can over. I overcome my fear. I can use different things about my personality or deficits in my personality to overcome that fear, but I get scared before it's done. I get nervous and scared before a prank, because so much goes into a prank, and there's so much that can go wrong, and I'm just trying to think about everything. So it's managing your fear is the trick. I just showed my son the first jackass. He's 13. I figure he could see it. And I'm just watching myself in some of those pranks, and I'm like, wow. I was still a little self conscious in those, and I wasn't as free as I became, you know, like in later jackasses or in bad grandpa, where I'm just totally.

I achieve total freedom, and that's just by doing it.

Interesting.

It took a lot of years to be creatively free, which is a very important thing to me for anyone. But to be able to, when it comes to creativity, just to let your mind go, get out of all your thoughts of what is right and wrong and all your guilt and shame or whatever, all the shit you bring to the table. But when it came down to be creative, I got to a point where I could completely let my mind go.

How? That's. That's. I mean, that's even better than not being embarrassed. Like, how do you do that?

I guess two books really helped me. I remember I was 14, sitting in a bar with my cousin Roger, who was older. He's a singer, and having a beer, and he hands me on the road by Jack Kerouac. And I read it, and I'm like, wow, people live like that. People are that free. People had no idea that was going on. And that one really kicked down some doors in my mind. And then the next big book to do that was fear and loathing in Las Vegas. And just the way Hunter thought and the fearlessness that he walked into a situation with, I was blown away. I was blown away.

I think I read that. Maybe I'm wrong, but you met Hunter S. Thompson. You got to meet him.

Was in Baton Rouge making a movie, and Sean Penn and I were talking. He was in New Orleans making a movie. He's like, hunter's going to be in town. Do you want to come in and drink? I'm like, yes. So Sean and I went to meet him at a bar, and he had his black medical bag with him filled with all kinds of stuff. It was a really odd night. People were reading the curse of lono in the room to hunter, and he loved it.

What is it?

One of his novels. But I was too fucked up. I'm like, I don't want to read from curso lono with all the impossible to pronounce hawaiian names and screw this up in front of hunter. So the book would come to me, and I just kept going, okay, you can pass it around, and finally came to me in. Funny thing is, like, when people would read, hunter would give notes, like, slow down too fast, you know, faster. He gave notes to everyone on their reads. And then Sean penn starts to read, and hunter gave a note, and sean just looked up from the book and looked at hunter, and hunter didn't give any more notes. I eventually read and tripped up on some hawaiian names, and I knew it. I knew it. And hunter's like, I don't know what's going on. Usually very bright. My worst fear happened, you know?

Oh, wow. That's so cool that you got to meet him.

Yeah. And I remember he threw me a big bottle of something, and I just took the bottle and tipped it in my mouth. I didn't, and I'm like, hmm, Vicodin. He's like, oh. He was very impressed that I could just tell by taste, which is not anything to be proud of, but he got a kick out of it.

That's like a red flag of a skill.

Yeah. You know, it's a terrible skill to have a major red flag.

To me, it feels like you assembled very like minded people, but a very niche, like, specific person who was, like, I guess, into chaos, but also rebelling against the norm. What do you think was the personality trait that you all shared?

Well, it was a naughty bunch. Where do I start with the naughty stories? Pontius. I don't even know if Pontius drinks anymore, but in the early days, he did. And sometimes we would be on a plane, and he would drink and also take sleeping medication, like an ambient or something, but they would just shut off his mind, not his body. So he would get up in the middle of a flight and go to the bathroom, walk over to the bathroom door, open it, close it without going in, turn around the aisle, and start peeing in his mind. He is in that bathroom right now.

I am only just realizing there are other people on this flight that are not you guys.

Yeah, it's a normal flight.

It's a regular, normal flight.

Yeah. People are horrified. He would lay down and take naps on empty seats, but he thought they were empty, but they weren't. He's laying across people.

And how do you. Cause I. Like. I'm always. I get fascinated by, like, the process of things right so, like, for example, this american life, like, we have an episode every week. It has a theme, but we have a weekly story meeting. And, God, like, I loved being in story meeting. Like, it was just this, like, group of 15 brilliant people just trying to come up with ideas and, like. And there was this way that ideas were generated from conversation. So I'm curious, for jackass, what's your version of that? How are you guys coming up with ideas? How are you making episodes or the movie? What's it like to create the thing?

Well, it was sort of like that, but there was no brilliant people. Sometimes people would write off on their own ideas. Bam would draw a picture and fax his ideas a funny photo. With the group we assembled, you could take a non idea and make it. Really make it into something. You know, some things are written, they're more fleshed out. And some things were just like superglue for rainy day ideas. And that would be at super glue. And it rained one day in Philadelphia or in Westchester, and we're like, go get some super glue, and we'll see what we can do with it. And it ended up being a really funny bit that made it into, what did you do with it, jackass number two? First of all, we superglued Bam's hands to his father's hairy chest.

Oh, my God.

And he took it off and it just like Wolfman hands. It was very funny. Then we super glued Preston and wee man into a 69 position.

Oh, God.

Just really silly things like that. I did think I tried to get a goatee off of Phil's hairy chest. Bam's father. So I put all the super glue around my, you know, mustache and chin, and I tried to seal myself to Phil's hairy chest. But what I didn't anticipate was I was just inhaling nothing but super glue fumes. And, I mean, I felt like I was about to pass out. And I think it's a terrible thing to do because I think there's a. There is a world where that could have, you know, done terrible harm to me. So that was a. We didn't air that, but I was. It was bad.

Oh, my God.

I was just. The room was spinning for minutes. It was just. This is what we find funny. And we were just trying to make ourselves laugh because I don't know how to make other people laugh, really. That would be daunting. Oh, how am I going to make the public laugh? But I know how to make my buddies laugh. And that's all we ever tried to do.

Well, that's what I think makes it so good, is you can just tell how much you love each other. Like, it really seems like you guys love each other.

Yeah, we do. We do. I mean, we give each other complete hell, but everybody loves each other. We've been through a lot.

So then you're on this train, and, like, as you're having to sort of one up yourself, that's when you start to do more dangerous sort of stunts.

I never. Well, I had a big. Okay, I had a big problem with one. Upping myself, topping myself. Anytime you get up from doing a stunt and people. Jeff or the rest of the guys were just like, their eyes are wide and, like, stunned. And that was a really good feeling because, you know, we just got something bigger, and there was a sense of accomplishment. And I liked that I was able to do that.

That rush, like, to you, what's like when you're doing a totally scary stunt and you pull it off? Like. Or even as you're about to pull it off, like, what does help me understand what that feels like?

Well, sometimes. I mean, it depends on the stunt. Cause sometimes there'd been the old picture app on me, but it wasn't even a dangerous situation, necessarily, but it ended up really dangerous. So in those moments, you're totally relaxed. Cause you're not expecting anything to happen.

Do you have an example of one of those moments?

Yeah, we were shooting the big dance sequence for the end of jackass number two. Big, like, MGM dance style sequence. And we're going to end with the Buster Keaton stunt, where the facade falls on. You know, the facade falls. And I standing there in the window.

So, like, it's the backdrop. Yeah, the backdrop falls at. You got it.

Looks like at someone's house.

Okay.

And we're getting ready to do the shot. He's like, on action. Take a couple steps and just stand there. A couple steps. Hit your mark and just stand there. And don't come off that mark until the facade falls, because that wall weighs 20 tons, and it will completely smash you. You will be done. And I was like, okay, I got it. I'm listening. And so they said, action. And soon as they said, action, someone's like, oh, cut, cut, cut. So. But I had already started my walk, and I was just kept walking. But someone released the facade.

Oh, no.

And it came down and smashed me. But luckily, and this was luck, was my head went through the window. Cause if that steel wall would have hit me in the back of the head, then, you know, you'd have been doing this with carrot top.

It must have, like, there must be some level at which, like, your magical thinking was kind of like, if you're taking inspiration from cartoons, you're sort of like, I'm invincible. I can, I can do this. I can do that. Like, there's a real self belief there that I find fascinating.

Well, it's more of a self delusion. Yeah. I never felt I was invincible. I felt I was pretty ventable, but I didn't want to intellectualize what I was doing too much at the time.

What's that mean?

We're just getting footage. We got to get footage. Which enabled me to do what I did. The magical thinking and the 1ft in front of the other type of mindset.

If you were to think of a specific incident in your life that you were afraid, you had to learn to override the fear.

Jackass. Forever. I'm going to do a magic trick in a bullring.

Okay.

I know that that's coming up on Friday. It's Monday, and I think a few days before is when you get the most nervous and fearful. You're thinking of, like, all the things that can happen and you know you're going to sleep thinking about it. You're walking around during the day, you have some thoughts like, oh, he's like, this could happen. This could happen. But as I get closer, I start to calm down and there's no, like, oh, in a few days, this happened. It's happening today, and I want to do it. As soon as I wake up, I get to set. I'm like, jeff, I'm ready. Just let to me know when you're ready. Have all the cameras set up. When you, when you call for me, it's on. I'm walking in the ring and doing it because I don't want to wait around. I don't want to spend any more time in my head. There's no reason to. I know what I have to do, and I just focus on what's at hand and what I need to do.

So it has, like, an inevitability to it.

It's inevitable. I've said I've, I'm doing it. I'm doing it and it's happening. So if you go into a stunt, a dangerous one, like all frightened and internal, you're really going to get hurt. You have to want to be in there and do it, and you're still probably going to get hurt. A lot of times I got destroyed on that one, but I wanted to be in there. I wanted to, you know, essentially get it over with. We need footage. And when I was doing those things, I. I wasn't thinking about myself or the long term effects. You know, I was pushing that down, way down. Didn't even talk about it with my therapist.

Really?

Yeah. I was like, I need help in other areas of my life. Right. Like, we all do. And I'm like, but I don't want to talk about the part of me that enables me to do stunts because. And it's crazy. It's just going to interfere with what I do. Meanwhile, there's great physical. Great physical retribution for that.

Yeah, totally. I mean, so basically what you're saying is, like, you. You didn't go to therapy to try to figure out, like, why am I driven to put myself in these dangerous, like, high adrenaline situations? Because you're like, my living. I make my living doing this. So I'm not gonna, like, unpick that knot.

Yeah. You want me to go broke?

You did. Did you hurt your penis? Is that. I read this. Is this a thing?

Well, I never asked that question. No, no, it's fine. I was trying to backflip a motorcycle for our tribute to Matt Hoffman's tribute to evil Knievel. And so we had all these stunts planned, and I got to the set that day, and I wasn't even supposed to do anything. And I'm like, I can. I'm going to try and backflip the motorcycle. I can't even ride a motorcycle. Can't even ride one. But Travis Pastrana was there, the person who's best at it in the world, and he was telling me how to backflip a motorcycle. But a lot of times in those instances, and you can see in the footage, in a lot of footage, where people are giving me instructions on how to do something. I'm not listening to anything. I just want to do it because he's like, you know, when you get to the ramp, go a certain speed until you get to the bottom of ramp. When you get to bottom of ramp, gun it and start pulling back. But whatever you do, don't let go of the bike because it's going to turn into a rocket and go up into the air and come down and squash you.

I didn't. I don't think I heard that until I watched it on in the edit bay. It's funny because the footage, he's letting out the clutch for me because I can't even let out the clutch.

But it makes sense that you did that because that's how you did it. That was your technique. That was your system prior to this. Just, like, block it out and just rush and do it.

Just block it out and do it. You know, I just figured, let's just do it and get it over with.

Yeah.

But long story short, on the fourth try, it goes. I let. I come off the ramp, let it go in the air. Goes about 20, 30ft up in the air, and it comes down and breaks the handlebars off in my crotch.

Oh, my God.

Tore my urethra right in my gooch area.

Is that where. What is the gooch area? That's ball the balls.

Well, the little area between those and the bunghole.

Gotcha.

As soon as that happened, Travis pastana like, the handlebars are over here. He's like, I've never seen that happen. But I stood up and I felt like I was peeing myself.

Oh, my God.

And so I went over to the, uh, the medic. I just looked, but I could see every time my heart would beat, blood would shoot out the head of my penis.

Oh, fuck.

I said, is this bad? He goes, that's not good. And the doctor said if it hit like a centimeter up or down, it would have been toast for no more fun for.

Oh, yeah.

Me.

You'd be living my old life. I feel like it's like, okay, so if I want to know how to be fearless, the antidote to that would be to know how to be brave. But, like, when someone says people are brave, I don't even really understand, like, what does that mean, to be brave? Like, what is it you're describing?

I think brave is. I've heard there are certain instances where people have completely conquered fear. My friend Matt Hoffman, at one point in his life, completely conquered fear. He's, like, greatest BMX writer of all time. Like, the evil Knievel of our generation. But he conquered fear, and he realized that that's bad.

Oh, interesting.

He realized he had to teach himself to be fearful again.

What was so bad about it?

You need fear to stay alive, especially if you're doing crazy things. There's no barometer of, like, if you're not scared of anything, that's. That's bad, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You're gonna get really, you know, things are gonna spiral. I never claim to have no fear. I have fear, but I can overcome that fear. And I think for people that are. Do heroic things, I'm talking about the congressional battle of honor. Those people. I'm not talking about me at all. I'm talking about people who achieve great things. They just manage their fear. They can overcome it. It's okay to have fear. It's good to have fear. You should have fear, but you can't let it hold you back from doing something.

Partly why I'm excited to do this is to do it with you, because I feel like I don't think you think of yourself this way, but I do see you as being free and pushing yourself and doing things no one's ever done. And I feel like I'm excited to hear you ask those questions of people and relate to these people, because I think I personally, I am more at the beginning, I'm probably more like your typical audience member where I haven't done brave.

No, you're not.

Yes, it. I am.

Okay, go ahead, keep talking. Then I have something to say.

No, but I feel like I'm coming at this to be, like, to figure out how to be more courageous, how to be more daring, how to be less full of shame, embarrassment, whatever it may be. But I feel like you're on the other side, where you've followed that route and taken it to its extreme, going.

Back to the point of you being just like the other listeners, you know, I think you're very brave. You were brought up in the Mormon religion your whole life until, like, what, you're 27 or 28, and you had the strength to go out on your own and leave the church, which is terrifying. That's all you've ever known. And you go out on your own and into the world, and that's notable. That's something. Maybe you don't like to jump off the top of things, but you know.

Exactly.

But there is a lot of bravery in you.

Mmhmm.

I was reading about your childhood and growing up Mormon, and it seems your mother was more religious than your father.

I mean, they were both. They were both very Mormon.

And were they fundamentalist Mormons or, like.

No, they weren't. I mean, that's like. I guess that would be like the polygamists. I mean, if you go back, like, two generations, there's polygamy in my family, but no, no, they were just like your standard Mormons. Most of my parents friends were Mormon. All my friends were Mormon. And I sort of lived in a world where I just thought everyone was Mormon. But as a kid, I think I had this sense of, I don't know about when I was supposed to get baptized. All kids are really excited about their baptism when they turn eight. And I turned eight and I said I wasn't ready. And it was shocking. And everyone was like, why doesn't she want to get baptized? So my parents sat me down, and we kept having conversations. And ultimately what I said was, why can't I just get baptized at 70? Then I'll be washed clean of my sins and I can live a fun life. Why do it now? I'm eight. I haven't done anything yet. And they were like, what is it that you want to do? I didn't know about sin, but I think just something in me was like, I'm going to like it.

I'm going to like sin a lot.

Okay, let's back up. What made you decide to split from the church?

I mean, there were, like, a couple moments. I mean, there were, like, a lot of moments, but I. I was like, I'm sure mormonism is true 100%. I know it's the truth. But I'm gonna take one year, and I'm gonna do what the Amish do, and I'm gonna try to, you know, drink. I'm gonna try to have sex, and then I'm going to learn that mormonism is true, and I'm going to go back to mormonism. And so that's what I did. So I had this, like, nine month period of, like, putting myself in situations where I could break the rules and then getting afraid and running. Literally running.

Now, did you split from the church before you lost your virginity or you split from the church? And then you're like, I'm going to live it up a little. Explore.

It was bit like, actually, it's pretty good. So for me, like, it just got harder and harder to be, like, sexually pure.

I don't know how you held out to 28. That's amazing.

It was just. And, you know, you can't even masturbate. Like, if you masturbate, you have to go repent to the bishop. So I had a very complicated relationship to sex. And then I'm on this rumspringa, and I haven't, like, you know, I haven't done anything. And my friend who's a writer was like, you know what? You should go to dinner with this friend of his who had been Orthodox Jewish and had left when he was, like, late twenties. And he's like, I think you'll. I think he might have some. Be able to, like, give you some advice on this. Right? So he. So we go to dinner in the West Village. He shows up. He's hot. He's, like, super handsome. I was not expecting that. Right? So I'm like, immediately attracted to this person. And he's walking me through all the things he emotionally had to go through to leave his religion and the loss of his family, all these things. So we're having a pretty serious conversation, but there's vibes happening, too, but I can't tell. I'm like, maybe I'm imagining it. So then we get to me and my break and what I've been able to do, and I'm like.

He's like, you know, have you tried drinking? And I'm like, no. And he's like, have you tried drugs? And I'm like, no. And he's like, well, what about sex? And I'm like, I haven't done anything. And he's like, why not? And I'm like, honestly, I have no idea what to do with penis. And he just. He looked me right in the eye.

Did he have some ideas? Personal ideas?

Yes. He just, like, leaned in, and he's like, do you want me to show you? And, I mean, it's so hot. I was like, yes. So we jump in a cab. We go to my apartment.

Check, please.

Exactly.

And we go.

We're in my, like, again, the lights are like, fluorescent lights fully on. We, like, are sitting on my couch together. And I'm not joking. Like, I have. I don't even know at that point in my life what a penis looks like. I had never watched porn. When we would go to art museums, my mom would teach us never to look down. So, like, I would see them for a second, and then I would look away. And I had changed baby diapers, so I knew, like, baby dicks. That's all. That's, like, my understanding of dicks, right? So we're, like, sitting on the couch, and he's like, are you ready? And I'm like, yeah. So he takes out his dick, which was hard. And I. The first thing I go, I was like, it's so big.

Which, you know, it's not the size of a baby.

Baby? Yeah. Compared to a baby stick, it was huge. I don't even know if it was huge in retrospect, but it was huge to me. And he was like, wow, you're already good at this. And then he's like, do you want to touch it? So I am barely touching it. He's like, no, no, you can be firmer. And so he takes his hand. He's showing me how to give him a hand job. And we hadn't even kissed. So I lean in. My hand is like. My hand is on his dick. I lean in, we kiss, and then I pull back, and I just look him in the eyes. And I was like, do you ever get over the guilt? And his dick.

Wow.

Went. Exactly. And I didn't know that was a thing. So I'm like, what's happening? Is everything. Did I hurt you? And I am not joking when I say, he was out of my apartment within two minutes. He fully was like, oh, I don't. You know, I think this is maybe not as good idea as I thought. And I was like, no, no, no, it's fine. I want this. No. And he was like, he left, he left, he left. And, I mean, that was my first real sexual experience, I guess. He left, he left. And so I was in this, like. I mean, it had been like a year and a half of this ramspringa thing, right? Like, I wasn't going back.

Now, how was the guilt during and after all those couple of weeks?

I think in retrospect, it was very pretty traumatizing, but I would still, like, I would still struggle with it and with the, like, you know, shame spirals for years. I mean, I think I'm only recently, like, on the other side of that stuff.

That's really intense.

It was very intense.

And how indoctrinated you must have been as a child to not be able to shake it until you were 28. Because I grew up southern Baptist, which is just as a kid having to get up on a Sunday and go somewhere. Just from that aspect, yes. I hated that basic aspect. I'm like, I don't like being told what to do. And then you go to this church, and everyone, they're telling you as a child, if you don't believe in Jesus, you're going to burn in hell forever. I was like, God, it's frightening. My mother was always very religious. My father would only go to church if he'd been on a drinking binge and was in trouble with my mother. And he would, like, he's trying to patch it up, and he would go to church with us, but during the prayer, he's just like, you gotta stand up and put your head down and you hear a ding. Ling ling ling. He's just jiggling the change in his pants where everyone can hear it. And mom's like, feel. So he was never religious until, like, the last four or five years of his life. And I say, when I was entering high school, I just kind of.

I was done with that. Even though it was tough because it was so built into the community. That's all I knew, like, there's churches everywhere back home, you know, whatever gets someone through the day is fine with me. Whatever religion. I just. It just wasn't for me.

You're done, right? You're not gonna do any more stunts? You're out now.

I can't do. I have unfortunately been in the ring with my last bull. You know, like, small stunts. I don't care. I break wrist or an ankle, nobody cares. I don't care. I just can't. For myself, for my family, you know, for my children. I can't have any more concussions.

How long have you been stopped? Essentially, like, you're sober from this thing. How long have you been sober?

It's funny you put it like that. December 15, 2020.

Oh, okay. Almost three years.

That's when the bull. You know, I tried to do the magic trick in the bull ring. That laid me up for a while.

Yeah.

Broke my rib, my wrist, concussion, hemorrhage on the brain, and I basically lost my mind over five months.

How fucked did you make your brain?

Well, I mean, my cognitive skills just went away. They were never that great to begin with, Elna, to be honest. But taking cognitive tests, like, a month after the injury, the doctor was like, uh, you having trouble paying attention? It's like, yeah, I'm editing a movie. I can't even sit down for a minute to edit because he's like, you scored a 17 on the test for memory. I'm like, out of 20. He's like, nope, out of 100. My mind. My mind was playing tricks on me. And I would talk to, like, close friends. I'm like, oh, you know, telling them what I was thinking, and they're like, this is not what's happening. This is not what's happening in your life. But this is all that I could see that was happening, and it was terrifying. And then I just started getting very depressed and intrusive thoughts. It just. It collapsed me, and that was over a series of, like, four or five months.

So it was like, you came back with a sick brain.

Forget about trying to finish the film and edit it. I was like, no way. I couldn't. I was. I was. Hell, I was useless, helpless. My mind was playing tricks on me. But you don't know that when it's happening. Someone can tell you that, but you can't get out from under it. Everything in my life, it was just the worst case scenario, and I would just focus on that all day in my head, like, the worst case scenario. And it's frightening because some people never make it out of that. But looking back at it now, it's like I have so much sympathy for that person, for me then, and I just try to, you know, have empathy and send a little love to that guy.

I'm coming into these interviews to figure out how to be more courageous, how to be more daring, how to be less full of shame, embarrassment, whatever it may be, and to learn to be like these people. But I feel like you're on the other side where you've followed that route and taken it to its extreme. And in a sense, it's almost like you had to retire from the thing that you were pushing to the limit, and now you're getting to, like, sit back and ask questions like, what was all that? And what is it for these people?

Well, yeah, I am trying to deprogram a certain side of my brain related to stunts.

What side?

I'm trying to unlearn that side of me of, like, risk taking, and. But it's hard. It's really hard to, like, let go of that mindset. And I'm, you know, coming to terms with that. And it should be very easy. I should be happy, but I'm still, like, longing for it, but, you know.

Well, you're longing to be hit by a bull.

I do miss them.

And is that partly why we're talking to these people?

I don't know. Maybe part of the reason because I am attracted to this type of person who takes great risk for something they love, but I also love to hear how they're wired and what they tell themselves to do, what they have to do. I just find them very inspiring.

Me, too.

Right?

Yeah, me, too.

That this committed to doing what they love, and they know the risks involved, and they still do it. Not only do they do it, but they persevere and become someone that we want to interview. Like, I get so happy learning about some character I never heard about. It makes me so happy. And then to be able to, you know, call my cousin Roger about it or tell my girlfriend about this character or describe the person and what they did to my kids, I get such a kick out of it.

I do, too.

Can you believe this nut? You know, it's so fun. And to be able to do it more in depth with a brilliant co host. In closing, are you any closer to going out into public with an erection?

Okay, if I got. I mean, it sounds like what I need to do is go out into public with an erection every day for many, many days, for years, and then, like, I feel like that's what I gleaned from you was that you have to just do it and keep doing it.

It's in a mental and emotional inoculation, just little by little, and you will.

Become desensitized, but then not too desensitized to where I break my penis with a motorbike.

Wow. Why you gotta bring up old stuff? Well, thank you, Elna.

Yeah. This has been really fun. Thank you so much.

Really fun.

Pretty sure I can fly is a production of smartless media, campsite media, and amplify pictures. It's hosted by me, Alma Baker, and Johnny Knoxville. Our senior producer and showrunner is Rajeep Gola. The associate producer is Morgan Jaffe. Sound mixing by Blake Rook. Sound design and theme music by Mark McAdam. Our executive producers are Josh Dean and Mark McAdam. For smartless media, the executive producers are Will Arnett, Jason Bateman, Sean Hayes, and Richard Corson. Bernie Kaminsky is the head of production for Smartless Media. The associate producer for Smartless is Mattie McCann. At Campsite Media, the executive producers are Josh Dean, Matt Scheer, Vanessa Gregoriatis, and Adam Ha. And at Amplify, the executive producers are Joe Louis, Rachel a. Govine, and Colin Miller. Brian Donohoe, Amplify's associate producer. Thanks for listening. We hope you've enjoyed the big balls you've just heard, and next week you'll have more balls. Stupid.

Smart.

Less mia.

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