I'm Andrew Gold, a fallen BBC journalist, interviewing the heretics and rebels brave enough to speak out against mainstream narratives.

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How do you feel if a person of a different race moved in next door.

I spent a while with a politically correct faction of the Ku Klux Klan.

The system punishes people for wrongthink. It's heartbreaking. Here's my unorthodox life Netflix star Julia Hart on getting out of a Jewish cult.

Why can't I be okay with being silent and subservient?

Everyone else is.

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It's perfectly legitimate to say, I'm a man, but I feel feminine. But to then say, Therefore, I am a woman, is just a betrayal of language. Now it's your turn.

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Your teenager just raided the fridge and walked out the back door. He yelled something over his shoulder that you only half heard. This is the last time you've seen him. You try to remember those words to help the police find him, but you can't. What if your daughter disappeared, your mother, your son? What if years have passed and you're no closer to finding them? When a person disappears, the story doesn't stop there, especially for families. Each week, Missing brings you stories of missing persons and justice sourced from the case file of the nonprofit, Private Investigations for the Missing. Together, we help raise awareness, elicit tips, and put pressure on police to keep searching. Listeners say Missing is the most bingeworthy podcast of all time. Search Missing wherever you listen to podcasts. Missing, where mysteries have a mission. Hey, Josh. You need anything before we get started here? You're thirsty? You want a soda? Sure. What do you want? I'll take. Not a deal.

It has been three months since Rene Rimes' body was found on the dusty concrete floor of the Home Depot. But there's been little progress on the case since then. Rene's boyfriend, Jake Silva, remains the lead suspect, but investigators have nothing connecting him to the crime. Then on September seventh, Detective Tony Souza and Detective Ken Wells bring 14-year-old Josh Burrows down to the police station for a casual, friendly interview.

I'll say I do look good, except for I got zips, so that's messing me up. I don't think there's any boys that are 14 years old that don't have a few pimples. I know. I had a few pimples that age, too. Have you tried that Seabree stuff? It's a facial watch. That'll clear you up.

This is actually Josh Burrows' his second time being interviewed at the station. The first time was two and a half months ago, when he was interviewed by Detective Joe Morgan, who at that time was lead investigator. But Detective Morgan is no longer on the case. His superiors became frustrated with the slow pace of the investigation and replaced him with Detective Sousa and Wells. And now that they're in charge, Sousa and Wells want to try interviewing Josh one more time.

Hey, Josh, we got you down here. We want to talk to you about Renee Ramos. Okay. Why don't you just tell us how you knew Renee? I know her for about a year. She was a pretty nice girl. When I go to Fugees, Jake Silva would always be there. And then she would make us some biscuits, with butter on it. Yeah, she was pretty nice. Yeah, she was also pretty, too. But then she died, that sucks.

Josh is several years younger than most the other teenagers in this case. But both he and Jake Silva know Fuji, the 17-year-old with a room in his parents' backyard where Jake and Renee could often be found couch-surfing. The detectives suspect that Josh may know something about what happened to Renee.

You don't have to worry about getting in trouble for seeing something. You understand that? We just want you to be completely honest. Now, I guess you guys were at Home Depot and- No, we're actually at this store. Which store are you talking about? The new one? The Food for Less? It was a night that we threw a party over at Best Western, a hotel party. It's called Tele. Do you remember when that was? I remember it was close to Memorial Day. Was it on Memorial Day.

At first, Josh denies knowing anything about Rene's murder. In fact, he tells them he even has an alibi. On the night Renee died, he was at a Tele, a hotel party at the Best Western, across the street from Home Depot on Yosemite Avenue.

Have you ever been to Home Depot? No, I have not, but I've seen it. Okay, this is real important here, Josh. We're asking you a question we know the answer to. Okay, we know you were at Home Depot. We know you've been there. The party moved to another location, didn't it? It was just the best question. It wasn't nowhere else. Was there any antes party? No. You're not being honest with us, Josh. My name was not at that party. Here's the deal, Josh. If you If you don't tell us the truth, then it means you were involved, okay? Means I was involved? Well, only people who don't tell us the truth are people who have something to hide. And people who have something to hide are suspects.

It only takes Detective Susan Welles 33 minutes to convince Josh Burrows that it's time to come clean and to tell them anything he knows about the murder of Renee Ramis. And it turns out Josh knows everything about it.

Hey, Josh, you were there. Now, we know that. Josh, you were there. This isn't up for debate, and you don't have to deny it. We know you were there at the party, and quit playing these games with us because remember what I told you earlier? People who hide things become suspects? Ty and Jake Silva strangled her with their own bra strap, and then screwed her, and then dumped her. How do you know that? Because Because I saw him strangling her and I ran, and I know for a fact that they got some.

I'm Susan Simpson.

And I'm Jacinda Davis.

I'm an attorney and investigator.

And I'm a true crime TV producer.

And this is Proof Season 2, murder at the warehouse. Proof is a red marble media production in association with Glassbox Media. For the past year, we've been re-investigating what happened after 18-year-old Renee Ramis went missing in the spring of 2000. We discovered that in this case, not everything is what it seems. This podcast tells the story of what our investigation uncovered.

New episodes are released on Mondays, and on Thursdays, you can catch our Sidebar episodes, where we talk about the case, talk to guests, and tell you more about what's going on behind the scenes. You can find additional materials about this case, including pictures, exhibits, and videos of people we spoke to on our website at proofcrimepod. Com. This is episode 3, Secrets Don't Last.

In 2008, the TV show, Real Interrogations, which showcases the interrogation skills of real detectives, produced an episode on Renee's murder. In interviews for that show, Souza and Wells explained how they were able to solve the case by convincing Josh Burrows to tell them what he knew.

We wanted a witness to come forward that could provide us with information that only someone who was there and someone who watched Renee get killed would know. And we found that individual. After speaking with Josh, we're convinced that Ty Lopes and Jake Silva raped and murdered Renee.

In this episode, you will hear Josh Burrows in his recorded police interviews, telling investigators what happened on the night Renee was killed. But before we begin, a note for our listeners. The following contains graphic descriptions of rape and murder and may not be suitable for all audiences.

Even before they spoke to Josh, the detectives had suspicions about who had been there on the night Renee was killed. Susan Wills began their interview with Josh by asking him about one of the people they think might have been there.

You ever hear Did you ever hear the name Rapper? Rapper Delight? Did you ever hear anybody with that nickname? I think it was Richard. This dude, I know him Richard. What do you know about this Richard guy? I know he had an obsession with her name.

Josh tells detectives that Rapper Delight is actually a guy named Richard Ornellis. In fact, it was Richard Ornellis who invited Josh to the Home Depot party in the first place.

Tell me, how did you know the party was going on there? Richard told me. That there was going to be a party at Home Depot? Yeah. He didn't say who the party was for. He told me about the Rene being pregnant.

Josh tells the detectives that when Richard invited him to the party, he'd mentioned something about Rene being pregnant. And when the night of the party rolled around, Josh decided he'd stop by the Home Depot.

What was going on over there? A bunch of fun, actually. A bunch of kids having- Just drinking. Just drinking. Okay. You go out to the party and who's there now? You say Richard. Richard. Teisula and Taisula, whatever his name is. And then Robert. Tye's son. Tye's uncle. I think Taisula's nephew's son. Robbie Mendoza? Yeah. The tie we're talking about is tie guy in his 30s heavyset. He's a lot, probably obese. Yeah. Okay.

When Josh arrives at the Home Depot, the party is already underway. Richard Ornellis is there, and so is Jake Silva, along with his girlfriend, Renee. Jake and Josh's mutual friend, Fuji, is also there, along with two guys that Josh recognizes as two of Jake's closest friends, Ray Gones and Robbie Mendoza. Not long after that, Robbie Mendoza's uncle, Ty Lopes, arrives, which is great because Ty 33. Now they're able to buy alcohol, and the party can really begin.

At about 9:15 PM, Ty shows up at the party, and then Ty goes to Who's the Less? And buys them. What do you buy? Beer and hot alcohol. Okay, it was one of my favorite. Hot damn. Hot damn? Okay, you brought some Hot damn. And you guys start drinking.

Josh starts drinking the Hot damn Cinnamon schnapps that Ty bought him at the nearby Food for less grocery store. And at first, there's nothing unusual about the party. Josh talks to a cute girl with brown hair that he's hoping to hook up with. Fuji and Ray start doing skateboarding tricks through the empty warehouse, and everyone is just hanging out and partying. There are a few others there that Josh recognizes, like his friend Chris Williams, and a girl he knows named Jamie Nichols. Jamie is at the party with her short friend, though Josh can't remember short friend's name, but she is later identified as 15-year-old Tanya Malden.

Okay, how many other people were there that you didn't know? There's a lot.

Josh thinks there are between 25 to 45 teenagers there in all, but a lot of them he doesn't know by name. There are some girls from Antica High there, plus a bunch of guys from a rival skater crew called E-O-K that Josh doesn't get along with.

I used to be in a group called BDK, and we really didn't like E-O-K. Oh, really? Jake Sula, I guess, was in E-O-K. But seeing in the middle, there was a group called Green Crew. I was also in. He was in Grimcrew, too, and I was in Grimcrew, so we had mutual agreement. And what was the one you were in, BDK? What does that stand for? Big Dead Kings.

Josh tells detectives that at the Home Depot party, there were people from three different skate crews: EOK, Grimcrew, and BDK, the Big Dick Kings. This is worth taking note of because these skater crew dynamics play an important role in the case later on. Josh is the only member of the BDK crew there at the party, but Josh is also a member of another skater crew called Grimcrew, which Jake Silva is also a member of. Finally, there's EOK, which stands for Era of Confusion, confusion spelled with a K. They're a skater crew that Jake often hangs with. When Josh next notices Renee, it's some EOK guys she's hanging out with. Using a hand-drawn map, Josh shows the detectives where everyone was standing at the time.

You guys are over here in the road drinking and everybody's having fun. So where was Renee at? I saw her around in this area. She was talking to some guys. And then what happened? I guess they started walking in that direction. Whose day? I really didn't know. And then Jake still followed, and then Ty was.

Renee and Jake and Ty go into a back room inside the Home Depot, where they're out of sight for a while. They come back 20 minutes later, though, and that's when the party starts to take a dark turn.

When the incident occurred between Renee and Jake, were there any other girls still there? Yeah, there was a lot of girls there. A lot of her name's friends. Okay. What's the first thing that gained your attention over towards Renee and Jake? I was looking for my beer. Okay. Then I laid eyes on him. He was strangling her. She was sitting down on her butt, and he was strangling her. And she got up, started lingering, and then he started socking her. How far were you from this when it was happening? I would say 30 feet. About 30 feet. Now, could you see in there okay? Yeah. We all had flashlights. Oh, you had a flashlight? Did you shine it on him? I was looking all around because I was looking for my bottle of beer. When I pointed over towards him, I saw him doing it, and I was like, What the fuck are you doing? This isn't supposed to be like this. This is supposed to only be a party. We're supposed to drink. And then he got mad at me because I tried breaking it up. My mind almost got sogged, and I was like, Fuck it.

I don't want no part of this. How many people were there at the time she was being strangled in your gas gas. There was a lot. By a lot? I mean, around me. They would be able to have seen this if they were paying attention. Hey, there's a lot of people there. The surrounding was 20.

Most of the people at the party do nothing but stand there and watch as Jake punches Renee in the head repeatedly and drags her on the floor of the Home Depot. Four of the partygoers do get involved, though, but not to help Renee. They go to help Jake.

Now, people gathered around her, right? And that was Ty Loops. And you said Ray Goens. And those two guys from E. O. K. But there was some people that were afraid and staring at him, gawking.

Ty Loops, Ray Goens, and two guys Josh doesn't know by name but recognizes as members of the E. O. K. Skate crew, form a circle around the battered and semi-conscious, Renee.

And then what happened? Started with a bra strap. I really don't. You did what? I really don't want to talk about it, but he started struggling. Now, how did he get her bra strap off? How did that come about? Because... I don't know. What did your face look like? Starting to red and blue. Purpleish color. Okay. And what her eyes look like? Popping out. But what happened next? She has a blood there. Then he got some.

And then Jake got some, Josh tells the detectives. Meaning, and then Jake raped her.

Now, you said he gets some. How does he do that? Take her pants down. Now, he has sex with her. That's what you mean by get some? Okay. So he finishes having Have you had sex with her. Then Ray does. Actually, no, Ty got something then, Ray. So Ty steps up. How does he have sex with her? How does Ty have sex with her? Through his zipper because he still had his pants on. Now, Ray gets on top of her, and he has sex with her. Then she started yelling because she woke up. What did she say? What are you doing? Get off in the air. Okay. Now, was her leg still down on the ground or were they up in the air? Widdling, thrashing up in the air. How long does he have sex with her? Not that long. I would say it will get longer than Jay. Okay. So he gets done having sex with her. Now what? And then, Ty started choking her, and that's when it was over, and then they buried her. But wait a minute. Okay, so what makes Ty start choking her? I don't know.

Josh describes how it is Ty Lopes that actually kills Renee. After they finish taking turns raping her, Ty uses Renee's bra to strangle her to death.

When he first started to strangle her, what would she do? She tried to get away. Okay, and what did he do? Was he saying anything? No, just in there having a smile on his face. He was smiling? He was enjoying it? He had a bully, I guess.

Once Renee is dead, Ray and Ty drag her body away and start to bury her under some rubble. Jake doesn't join them, though.

When they carried Renee off, what was Jake doing? Shaking his head. What do you mean by shaking his head? Like, no, this didn't happen? That's why I know that Jake didn't kill her. That's why I tried telling you guys. Ty was the- Ty was the one that did it. Yeah, he did.

Josh doesn't know for certain why Renee was murdered. Jake and Ray and Ty don't explain their motives to Josh. But Josh thinks he might know what the reason was.

Did you know about her being pregnant? Mm-hmm. Do you think it had anything to do with that? What I think is that it was Todd's baby, and Jay didn't like it too much. And that's why he beared her, and that's why he had a tight interview.

Everyone knew Renee was pregnant, Josh says. That wasn't a secret. But what they may have been trying to keep secret was that it was Ty's child she was carrying. That's why Jake killed Renee for cheating on him with Ty. And Ty agreed to help because he didn't want Renee to have his baby. That's Josh's theory anyway. After speaking to Josh, investigators have now solved Renee's murder. But as Detective Wells explained to real interrogations, there was one last thing they wanted to do before making any arrests.

Understanding how this crime was committed, how Renee was murdered, we wanted to speak with Jake again.

Susan and Wells find Jake at the skate park and tell him they have some photos they want to show them back at the station. Jake agrees to go with them and is interrogated for the fourth and final time. The interrogation lasts for nearly two hours. The following recording has been edited for time.

Hey, Jake, do you want to just tell us about being at Home Depot? I never went to Home Depot. You did? No, I didn't. I never stepped foot out When was I there? Well, let me put it like this. We know for a fact you were there. Now, it's your opportunity to tell us what happened. I would have told you already. The fact is that you were there. That's a fact now. You were there. I've never been out there. Can I take a test to prove? No. To tell you? No, we don't need a test because we know you were there. When was I there? Well, that's why we're I'm asking you, Jay, because we know when you were there. Now, if you want to talk about this reasonably and give us an explanation for why you were there, that's fine. I would. I swear. You were at the party, okay? That's all there is to it. We already know you were there, okay? I wasn't there. So you're telling us that all these people that saw Jake Silva at that party at Home Depot are all lying to us? Maybe I could prove I wasn't there.

Maybe I was with my dad that day or something. We're talking about a nighttime party at Home Depot. Jake, you were there. No, I wasn't.

The interrogation continues like this for quite some time. The detectives tell Jake, We know you were there. Jake says, But I wasn't there. And the detectives respond, We know that you know that we know you were there because we know things that we could only know if someone had already told us about Renee's murder.

Do you realize who we've spoken to, right? Yeah. You have. Yeah. You talk to everybody. And you realize that secrets don't last. Secrets? What are you talking about? Secrets don't last. Oh, this ain't right. Secrets. I didn't... What? Stories don't last. Being stories. Lies don't last. The truth lasts. We know you were there. I would tell you. I'm not trying to lie. I'm not trying to hide- Let's just get past that. You know you were there, so we want to know what you did while you were there, and who you talked to. How could I tell you who I talked to, if I don't remember? We'll get past that. Let me explain something to you. Okay. We know you were there. We know what happened. We're talking about the party where the people had the flashlights. The flashlights? Yeah. Remember all those people skating in there with the flashlights? When we to a lot of those people. Jake? Skating around the flash light.

Detective Souza and Wells think Jake is lying about this, though, because Josh Burrows has already told them all about how the partygoers used flashlights to skate through the Home Depot warehouse. The detectives tell Jake this to prove to him that they already know everything. They already know the truth, so he might as well tell the truth, too.

We're giving you things that only people who were there would know. Now, do you want to tell us your version of what happened? I would tell you. Because everyone else has told us what happened. And as you know, like we explained it before, it paints the picture, and they have painted a picture. You haven't added your brush strokes to that picture. God, man. Do you understand what we're talking about? Not really. We're not trying to confuse you, Jake. That's the last thing we want to do, and you're not confused. You always play like you don't know what we're talking about half the time, Jake. Just half the time you're saying stuff that I don't even understand what the What are you talking about? You're playing dumb here, son. You're not dumb. You know what happened. Now just tell us. We're telling you that we know for a fact you were there. On what day, what time? No, that's not important. That is. What if I could prove I wasn't there? That's not the issue here, Jake. Now, the date really isn't even important. We're asking you to explain being at Home Depot. The date isn't the issue.

It's being at Home Depot is the How did you? I wasn't. In and around the property. How do you remember? How do you think we know what happened? How they had flashlights? How do you think we know that, Jake? We weren't there. Someone had to tell us. I'm trying to say I remember being there with flashlights and skating and drinking. I don't remember. And I would remember somebody skating around with flashlights. We're not talking about people skating around with flashlights, Jake. We're talking about Renee's murder. That's what we're talking about.

The detectives were hoping to convince Jake that he would be better off if he just tells them the truth. But Jake keeps repeating the same denials over and over again. And finally, he asks if he can leave.

I want to go home and talk to my dad, babe. You don't want to talk about this anymore? I wasn't there. If I was there, it wouldn't have happened. Can I go talk to my dad, please? No. No. Why? You're under arrest. Under arrest? Yep, for an eighth. What? Playing games too far. No, I'm not. Wait. I would tell you- Hang on. You're under arrest for murder. Right now, you're under arrest for murder. How? Now, do you want to tell us your side or not? I would I'm trying to tell you. You can tell us what happened. I told you. I wasn't there. I don't know. I wasn't there. God. I'm trying to tell you, and you come out like this. You're under arrest. You scared the shit out of me. You want me to tell you a statement? You were there. You're still under arrest. We're not kidding. What? Yes. Do you think this is a real thing? We're going to book you for murder. How the fuck did I murder someone? I didn't murder nobody.

The detectives told Jake that witnesses already came forward to tell them all about the party at the Home Depot, but they never told him who. Josh Broze's name is never mentioned. Instead, they suggest to him that it's Ty Lopes who has told them everything.

Think about it, okay? We talked to Ty. Ty gave us a story. That's why you gave us a story. I didn't even go through Ty. Figure it out. The game's over. You guys can't keep secrets that long. You can't keep telling stuff and think that things are going to be kept secret. They're not. Whatever, man. I didn't do nothing wrong. Oh, I'll go to jail for maybe 20 years and the truth will come out someday. No, it won't. I already had to.

I'll go to jail for maybe 20 years and the truth will come out someday, Jake told the detectives. It has been 23 years since Jake said this, and he's been in prison ever since then. So far, at least, it is the detective's prediction of the future that has proven the more accurate, because no other truth has come out. It is Josh Burrows' statements that solve this case and led to the arrest and conviction of Jake Silva and Ty Lopes, and the case has been closed ever since.

In a small town in Colorado, people turn to a family-run funeral home in their deepest moments of loss.

Run by a mother and daughter team, the funeral home offered thoughtful services at a fair price. But there was a dark side to their business.

It was truly a house of horrors. He said she may have dismembered him and sold parts of him. I'm getting angry all over. A small sweat bringing out.

I'm investigative reporter Ashley Fontz, and this is the story of an unbelievable crime you've never heard of, a story of a funeral home that lured their victims in the front door, only to sell their bodies out the back. From Campside Media and Sony Music Entertainment, listen to Cover Up Body Brokers. Subscribe on Apple podcast to binge all episodes or listen weekly wherever you get your podcast.

Everytown has a dark side. This is Andrew Fitzgerald from the Everytown podcast, where every single week we dive into insane and mysterious true crime stories, most of which you've never heard of. Stories like the bizarre disappearance of Tyler Davis in Columbus, Ohio, a 29-year-old father trying to find his way back to his hotel when he disappeared and was never heard from again. And Elizabeth Shoff from Lugoff, South Carolina, who was abducted from her driveway by a madman and take into his underground bunker in the woods. We give you all the details you're interested in hearing about without any fluff or fillers, because ain't nobody got time for that. We cover everything from psychopaths to poltergeist. So go check out the Everytown podcast because Everytown, no matter how nice it may seem, has a dark side. Hey, listeners, it's Tim and Lance here, and we wanted to remind you that we have a little show out there called Crawl Space. On Crawl Space, we dive deep into a number of cold cases, not just one offs, but for as many episodes as we need to raise awareness and tell stories of people impacted by crime. And we are constantly striving to inform our listeners about topics and events that they may not realize have an effect on their lives.

Experts, authors, survivors, and educators in the fields of psychology, criminology, advocacy, history, and more, join us as we work together to understand our community. We like to say Crawl Space is the place where crime meets culture. You can find Crawl Space wherever you listen to your podcasts.

Susan Wells were bluffing about Ty telling them the story. At the time of Jake's interrogation, they hadn't gone to talk to Ty yet. But after arresting Jake, the detectives immediately head for Ty's house and ask him to come in for an interview as well. The Manteca Police Department has denied our request for a copy of Thai's interrogation tape. However, they did agree to give it to Real Interrogations for their episode, so the only portions of Thais' Interrogation that we have come from what was aird on Real Interrogations.

Somebody's giving you guys a line of crap, man. If they're trying to tell you I was out there at a party, there's no way in hell. That's what they're telling us. It's a lie. It is? Straight-up lie.

Susan and Wels tell Ty that they've actually already arrested someone for Renee's murder.

You guys got somebody, really? Hey, I'm showing a picture of him right now. Oh, yeah. You guys really got Jake in jail? Yeah. You kidding me. He told all about you, too. I don't know why somebody would do that, but it's I'm telling you, you guys are wrong if you think that I was over there at a party when she was killed. You guys are dead wrong. I'm telling you. I mean, you are barking at the wrong tree. Jake's full of shit, and that's it. All right. Now I got to charge you. You're under arrest.

Two weeks later, the detectives flew to Indiana to make their third and final arrest. There, they found Ray Gones, who had left Manteca shortly after Renee's body was found. Ray waived extradition and flew back to Manteca with Susan Wells, where he joined Ty and Jake at the San Joaquin County Jail.

After their arrest, Jake Silva, Ty Lopes, and Ray Goens all continued to deny any knowledge of what had happened to Renee. If detectives had been hoping that one of them would flip and try to cut a deal in exchange for testifying against the others, then they were disappointed, which meant that at trial, the prosecution's case would have to rely on the testimony of their star witness, Josh Burrows. Detective Susan Wells had no doubt that Josh had been there. Yes, there were some things Josh said that investigators had questions about, and not all of his statements added up perfectly. But Josh had known things that only someone who had been there and witnessed the murder could have possibly known. Things like why there was a party at the Home Depot in the first place.

I knew she was pregnant. Richard was the first one that told me. Richard told you that night that she was pregnant? No, he told me before that. And then he said there was going to be a party.

Dr. John Cooper was the medical examiner who autopsied Renee. He testified that she had been 8 to 10 weeks pregnant when she died, corroborating what Josh said about why the party was being held. Then there's the people that Josh says were at the party that night. Even before speaking to Josh, detectives had a list of people that they believed had been present when Renee was killed. And Josh confirmed that almost all of them had, in fact, been there at the party. Jake Silva was one of them, of course. No surprise there. But Josh had also known that Ray Goens and Fuji were involved in Renee's murder.

Now, was Fuji there at the party? Yeah. When did he show up? Shortly after we did. Now, Ray, how do you know Ray? He was at Fuji a couple of times. So he was there, Ray? I'm pretty certain.

Because of their connection to Jake Silva, Fuji and Ray had both been suspects from day one of the investigation. In fact, Fuji was one of the very first people to be questioned in the case. And when Detective When detectives went to speak to him, they'd found what they thought was a head-shaped hole in the drywall of his room. This led to one of the investigator's first theories about what happened to Renee.

They were saying that she was killed in my room and then ditched at the Home Depot. That's one that everybody seems to believe in this town, that it was in my room when it happened.

That's Fuji. He told us about how the investigators had constantly been questioning him and searching his place. They even took out portions of his drywall to test for the presence of Renee's blood. But those searches turned up nothing of significance.

It kept bothering me and still trying to get information out of me. I was giving the same answers to the same questions over and over again. And towards the end of it, I started to refuse to talk to him because I was just getting annoyed with him.

Because it was the same question.

Yeah. I've already told you everything I know, so what do you want? You've already gone through my room and my house and What more do you want?

As for Ray Gones, the reason he was a suspect from early on is obvious. Ray had corroborated Jake's story. He claimed to investigators that he and Jake had last seen Renee at Labor Ready on Memorial Day. But based on what the medical examiner, Dr Cooper, had concluded about Renee's probable time of death, detectives believed Renee had not been killed until several days after Memorial Day. They believe she must have still been alive and with Jake and Ray for most of the following week. And why, detectives wondered, would Ray have lied about last seeing Renee on that Monday? Unless he had been involved in her murder later on.

Ray was this older hippie guy who used to buy his beer. I'm not even sure how him and Jake became friends. I knew him through Jake. I knew he was just out visiting from out of state what he was doing in Manteca Yeah, I don't know.

Ray, who was 21 at the time, had arrived in Manteca only six weeks before Rene's murder. He'd been hoping to stay with his sister, who lived in Manteca, but that hadn't worked out. So he ended up living on the streets with Jake and Renee. Though later on, he started crashing in Fuji's room most nights.

But you liked Ray? Yeah, Ray was cool.

He was just fucking constantly sleeping on my couch.

And then, about a week after Rene's body was found, Ray left town.

I think the last time I saw him, he was getting a Greyhound ticket to go to Florida or something.

So you remember him leaving? Yeah.

I bought a bunch of his... He had some skate video cassettes, and I was buying a bunch of them off of him.

That was the last time I saw him.

Did he say why he was leaving?

No, he didn't really say. I think he was just... There was nothing out here for him, so he was just leaving.

Finally, there's something else Josh said that proved to detectives that he knew what happened to Renee. Josh told them that days or weeks before Renee's death, Ty Lopes had sexually assaulted her. All right.

This is something that can be useful, you guys. Okay. Ty used to less Renee, and Jake Silva used to watch.

What Josh is referencing here is something detectives had already known about. They had heard about it before from Jake Silva. During his first interrogation, Jake had suggested to them that Ty Lopes might be a possible suspect in the case.

Ty Lopes It would just probably be another suspect. I'm not trying to remember. Why would Ty wear her? A while back, it was a couple of months back, we were staying in his room, me and her neighbor, and she woke me up crying, really crying. She was all hysterical She was like, Ty touched me. How did you wear? In her pants. And after that, I saw him walking down the street, and I pushed him down, and I asked him why he I shouldn't have done that. I thought I'd be able to take it into my own hands, which I shouldn't have done.

In one of my first conversations with Jake, I asked him about this incident with Ty.

What I remember, me and Renee were staying in his room on the floor. We were sleeping. She woke me up, grabbing me hard, like my back and my side, like hard, like scratching me. I didn't look at her, turned like, What the fuck? And he was touching her. He was all drunk. He had his fucking hand down her pants trying to touch her. I just grabbed her up and got all her stuff and got the hell out of there.

How did Renee react to that?

She was freaking out. She was crying, freaking out. I didn't know what the fuck to do. I didn't know what to think.

When Jake was interrogated back in 2000, he did tell them about this time that Ty had sexually assaulted Renee. But when Jake ran into Ty again after that night in his room, Jake hadn't simply pushed Ty to the ground like he told the detectives. Jake told me there had been a bit more to it than that.

I think it was like a day or a couple of days later that I did that to him. I kicked him in the head, pushed him down and kicked him in the head. I remember that. I don't remember the exact details, I guess, but I remember pushing him down. I don't remember where it happened, but the first chance I got as soon as I seen it, he was on site.

Did he try and fight back?

No, he couldn't. Even if he did, it wouldn't matter. That's creepy shit, especially to her and to him, that he would have got hurt. That day that that happened, I remember when I fucking pushed him down and kicked him in the head, she was screaming at me not to. No, Jake. No, don't. I didn't care. I was going to stomp his head flat. I was so mad. You don't You don't do that. You don't do shit like that. It just seemed like it was the ulterior motive. Like he was willing to let us stay there just so he could do that. It was just weird, man.

For Detective Susan Wells, this all corroborated what Josh Burrows had told them. Josh knew about Renee's pregnancy, which detectives believe to be Jake's motivation for killing Renee. Josh knew about Fuji and Ray being involved in the murder, too, something that the detectives had suspected from the very beginning. Josh knew about how Ty had, in Josh's words, molested Renee, something the detectives knew for a fact to be true because Jake had already told them about it. So given that Josh had told the truth about all of that, what reason was there to doubt the rest of Josh's story? But even though Josh's story answered the big question in this case, what happened to Renee, it also left a lot of smaller questions unanswered. Questions like, why did the detectives decide to charge Ray Goens, but not Fuji? And why were they never able to identify the two members of the E. O. K. Skate crew who had helped hold Renee down while she was raped and murdered. And why did they never even question Robbie Mendoza about any of this? Josh told them Robbie was at the party where his best friend his uncle conspired together to murder Renee.

These questions, though, were all ones that only the detectives would be able to answer. Hey, everyone.

I'm Sean. And I'm Joe.

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On a hot summer night in 1988, Jane Burras Borowski was stabbed 27 times by an unknown man. She was seven months pregnant.

My name is Jane Borowski. I survived, and I remember everything.

Jane is the lone survivor of the Valley killer. Who proud the borderland of Vermont and New Hampshire and murdered at least eight other women. I'm your host, Jennifer Amell, and this is Dark Valley. Jane and I didn't set out to solve this, but in the course of a two-year investigation, situation, this happened. You know, the police aren't going to be happy with me sharing this.

It's not about secrets anymore. It's not about hiding. Connecting this person not only to my sister's murder, but to the other murders as well.

Join the search for America's unknown serial killer. Subscribe to Dark Valley and binge the entire 12 episodes of Season 1.

Sometime in the early '80s, ARIO Speedwagon's airplane made an unannounced middle-of-the-night landing. This is my friend Kyle McGlachlin, the star of Twin Peaks. And he's telling me about how he discovered a real-life Twin Peaks in rural North Carolina, not far from where he filmed Blue Velvet. What was on the plane was copious amounts of drugs coming in from South America. Supposedly, Pablo Escobar went looking for other spots, quiet, out-of-the-way places to bring in his cocaine. My name is Joshua Davis, and I'm an investigative reporter. Kyle and I talk all the time about the strange things we come across, but nothing was quite as strange as what we found in Varnumtown, North Carolina. There's Crooked Cops, Brother Against Brother. Everyone's got a story to tell, but does the truth even exist? Welcome to Varnumtown. Varnumtown is available wherever you listen to podcasts.

Detective Souza and Wells did not respond to our request to speak to them for this show. But Detective Morgan, who had initially been lead investigator before being taken off the case, agreed to meet with us. He didn't want our conversation with him to be recorded. But afterward, Susan and I went over everything we'd learned from him.

One thing about his report that I did question was his interest in Fuji because he seemed pretty keen on Fuji. But the Fuji thing doesn't really make sense to me. I asked him, No, I didn't think Fuji was involved. I think he was covering up for his friends. Oh, he said, I thought Fuji was being heroic and covering up for his buddies.

Yeah, he was trying to be here. I think he was frustrated with Fuji. He thought Fuji could help them and just feeling incredibly frustrated that he wasn't cooperating. Detective Morgan told us that he thought Fuji was lying about what Ali knew to help cover for his friends. But Morgan said he hadn't thought Fuji had any involvement in the murder itself, which had surprised us that he thought that way. How could Detective Morgan not think Fuji was a suspect? After all, Buros says Fuji was right there when Renee was killed.

I was like, Why didn't you suspect Fuji? He was like, Well, there's no evidence against him. Well, there's the same evidence against Fuji, there's against Thai, which is Josh Burrow says they were there.

But he didn't know that.

And he looked at me.

No, I think he really didn't know. Before talking When we were talking to Detective Morgan, we assumed he'd known all about the party at Home Depot and everything else Josh had said when he was interviewed by Susan Wells. After all, they'd been part of the same police department and were working on the same case. But remember, Morgan had been kicked off the case just before Josh Burrows was interviewed. And the version of Josh's story that Detective Morgan had been told about is roughly the same as the version of Josh's story that was told on the episode of Real Interrogations. And that episode never mentions a party. Detective Morgan told us he'd never researched the details of Josh's story for himself. Intentionally so, and for valid reasons, Morgan had been a witness at both trials, so he'd always avoided learning extra information about the case until we showed up anyway.

He was like, Don't tell me about this stuff. And then we're like, We're going to tell you anyway. But we're like, Look, you can't have a conversation about this without you knowing basic facts about the case. And we told him, Here's what Josh Burrow says. There was a party with 25 to 45 teenagers at the Home Depot when they organized this rape and murder. And his reaction was, That doesn't sound plausible. He's like, What?

I've never heard that before. That's the theory? He did say they interviewed everyone, a lot of people at the Home Depot, and there was really no evidence of a party. Then we were like, That's their theory. And that's when he's like, Oh, well.

I think he even said, Oh, so that's why you're here. Yeah.

He said, Oh, now it makes sense why you're looking into this.

When we first sat down with Detective Morgan, one of the first questions he'd had for us is, Why is this the case you're looking at? He'd had his own concerns about the investigation, but he didn't get why we were interested in it. He'd been polite but firmly dismissive in response to our suggestion that maybe the wrong people had gone to prison. But when we told Detective Morgan what the story of Josh Burrows' story had actually been, Morgan's response had been a sharp, followed by him quietly chuckling to himself. Then he told us, Okay, now I see why you're looking at this case. So I tried to gage him. I was like, And there was no physical evidence? And he didn't really... I don't know if he knew that there was no physical evidence or...

He was being an interrogator. He's not going to react to anything we say.

He react to the Josh Bro story.

He reacted to the party. He's like, What?

He was like, What, Honor? What? He knows there was no party.

There was no party.

Yeah, he knows that plain as day. There are few absolutes in this case. There is so much that is unknown. And the evidence that does exist is complicated, contradictory, and frustratingly ambiguous. Most questions about what happened to Renee have no obvious answer, and no conclusions can even be attempted without a close examination of the evidence we do have. But Josh Burrows' story about the party at the Home Depot is not one of those complicated questions. The party never happened. Now, by itself, that does not mean that Jake Silva and Tie Loops are innocent. It doesn't prove they didn't do this crime. But what it does mean is that in trying to figure out what actually happened to Renee, the story about the party is a distraction. It doesn't get us any closer to an answer. If a party like the one Josh describes had to happen, there would be evidence of it, and there's none. No trash was left behind by any partygoers. Surveillance cameras from nearby businesses did not pick up any sign of nearly four dozen teenagers driving or riding or walking in to the construction site. And construction workers never heard or saw anything to suggest that kids were partying there.

We saw no signs of a party, no candles, no empty booze bottles or beer or anything like that. There was nothing. We wouldn't notice if there was a big party there. I was staying in a trailer on site there, and we never heard nothing about no party or anything.

That's not a place where a bunch If the kids would go out and have a big old party, they would have got busted pretty quick. So you're pretty confident that if a party had happened, you would have known about it?

Oh, I would have known. I would have known.

But here's the real reason why we know the party never happened. Every single one of the teenagers that Josh says was at this party has denied that anything like that ever happened.

They pretty much made that known that they thought I was there, but I didn't even know there was a party there.

That's Fuji again. Investigators never charged him in connection with the murder, but they were confident he'd been at the party. Josh Burrows had given them very specific details about what Fuji had been doing at the moment Renee was strangled. He describes you and Ray having a skate-off during this murder. So like, Ty and Jacob are over there strangling her. At the Home Depot warehouse. And the two of you are skating off with one another.

There's no running power in there. So pitch black.

No, you have flashlights.

Oh, yeah.

Our candles.

It was a seance on Ouija boards. What is going on?

Have you ever heard anyone say I was at that party? No, not even anybody admitting that they were invited. The prosecution's rebuttal here is that Fuji and the other partygoers are all lying, either because they were involved in the murder themselves or because they're afraid of being called a snitch. But I would submit to you that it is a fundamental truth of the universe that a group of 25 to 45 teenagers cannot keep a secret this big, not even for a week, and certainly not for over two decades. If this party had actually happened, someone else would have come forward. Even during their first interview with Josh Burrows, you can hear Detective Souza and Wells grappling with this inherent problem in Josh's story.

There's a lot of people there. The person around me was 20. 20? Watching this happen. Tell me this, why if so many people saw this happen, why is nobody coming forward to tell us what they saw?

For the sake of argument, though, let's assume that sometimes, in some cases, 25 to 45 teenagers might succeed in keeping a secret this big if they have sufficient motivation for doing so. That's the thing, though. Many of the teenagers that Josh says were at this party have no motivation to keep this a secret. The exact opposite, in fact. One of the few things that Josh is consistent about is that a group of girls from Antica High School were at the party. Girls who were friends with Renee and who were devastated by her murder, who were desperate for this case to be solved, and who now, as grown women, continue to mourn their friend's death. We showed a copy of Josh Burrows' statement to Laurie and Amber. Renee's close friends from Manteca High. So, Susa, who do you remember being there? How many people do you remember being there when the incident between Renee and Jake occurred? Were there any other girls still there? Josh, there was a lot of girls there, a lot of Renee's friends.

Yeah.

No? None of us girlfriends, her close friends were there. Do you think if Renee's friends were there, you would know? Oh, yeah, for sure. You feel confident Josh is lying about that?

Yeah, no, we weren't there. None of us girls were there.

Renee had a lot of really good close girlfriends. Like I said, it was like a big group of girls.

We all talked and none of us were there. No. Yeah, we would know.

For 23 years, Laurie and Amber never doubted the story about the party at the Home Depot. As teenagers, they'd been told by police that this is what happened. So what reason did they have to doubt it? But now, as adults, looking at the evidence for themselves for the first time, the doubts they had were obvious and immediate. They quickly read and then reread Josh's words, shaking their heads to themselves. And I think Laurie even rolled her eyes at one point. Who exactly was at this party? I wasn't invited. Was any of Jake's friends at this party? I suppose. Does anyone else say that they were at the party? We've not found anyone.

We can't, and neither could the cops, frankly.

So there was no party?

No one has come forward to say that they were at the party.

So there's no party, and Josh made all made this up, and the cops I wanted to go with this because it was the easy way to come up with a conviction. I mean, that's one interpretation. I saw that case.

That's going to be my interpretation.

Next week on proof.

There is a moment in the trial when the judge addresses your dad and says, Mr. Lopes, you're your own worst enemy. Shut your mouth. Yeah.

I remember that.

Ty was such a pain in the ass to the powers that be in that town for so long.

He just antagonized the police. He was a troublemaker. Okay, now this is very serious. Do you have any idea who killed Rene Reims? No, I don't. But I doubt that Jay did it.

You've been listening to Proof, a podcast by Red Marble Media, in association with Glassbox Media. We'll be back next week with episode 4. Send us your questions and comments at proofcrimepod@gmail. Com. We'll respond during our bonus episode, Proof Sidebar, on Thursdays. Kevin Fitzpatrick is our executive producer. Our logo was designed by Drew Hasausky, and our theme music is by Ramiro Marquez. Audio production for this episode is by Michael Yulitowski. Our social media manager is Skyler Park. And thank you to our sponsors who make this podcast possible. Follow us everywhere with the handle @proofcrimepod and on our website, proofcrimepod. Com.

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