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On a hot summer night in 1988, Jane Borowski was stabbed 27 times by an unknown man. She was seven months pregnant.

My name is Jane Borowski.

I survived, and I remember everything. Jane is the lone survivor of the Valley killer who proud the borderland of Vermont and New Hampshire and murdered at least eight other women. I'm your host, Jennifer Amell. And this is Dark Valley. Jane and I didn't set out to solve this, but in the course of a two-year investigation, this happened. You know, the police aren't going to be happy with me sharing this. Not about secrets anymore. It's not about hiding. Connecting this person not only to my sister's murder, but to the other murders as well. Join the search for America's unknown serial killer. Subscribe to Dark Valley and binge the entire 12 episodes of Season 1. Hi, and welcome to this week's Sidebar. We're here to discuss episode 3 of Proof Season 2, Murder at the Warehouse. In this episode, Secrets Don't Last, we finally meet the state's star witness, Josh Burrows. But before we begin, I wanted to put a call out to anyone out there who might have information related to this case. We would very much love to hear from you. Even if what you know you might think seems small or probably not important, well, it might be.

If you think you have something that's relevant to the show, to the case, or that we might just find interesting, seriously, hit us up. You won't be wasting our time. We'd love to hear from you.

Absolutely. Give us a call or message us or send us an email. Our email is proofcrime crimepod@gmail. Com. Our phone number is 929-267-3172. That's 929-267-3172. Or message us on Facebook. We're at proofcrimepod.

For instance, in this episode, you heard about how Josh Burrows was invited to the Home Depot party by a guy going by the nickname of Rapper Delight, or possibly Rapter, who, for the record, is not actually Richard Ornellis, like Josh Burrows says. But if you happen to be in Manteca in the late '90s or early 2000s and happen to be acquainted with Mr. Rapter Delight, please reach out to us. We'd love to hear from you.

Mainly because it will stop Susan from talking about it.

Yeah, I was going to say, if anyone knows, I'd be eternally grateful. They would reach out.

Rapper Delight himself. Give me a call. Love to hear from you.

I can hear Susan turn to one more person and say, Hey, do you know who Rapper Delight might be?

Yes. Do us all Do me a favor and please call.

I think you even asked the person at the In-N-Out bar.

I think she did. This week, we finally find out about the party, which is the core of the state's case. Basically, the idea is that a bunch of teenagers, plus, Ty Lopes, were partying at the almost finished Home Depot in Manteca that was being built. In the middle of the party, five, six guys basically pull Renee to the middle of everything and brave and kill her while others watched on horrified, but no one but Josh Burrows makes an attempt to stop it. Now, this is the centerpiece of the state's case. This is the case. Generally, when I'm looking into a case, I give what the state believes happened, full consideration, complete respect. But I think here we were all in agreement that we couldn't pretend to believe the narrative that was put forth or ask our listeners to believe that, knowing that this Essentially, the Emperor has no clothes. There's nothing there.

I think going into it, it sounded a little ridiculous that there were that many people at a party and no one's tried to stop this murder and rape from happening. In my mind, I had thought, well, maybe if there was a party, everyone left, and it was just Ty, Jake, Renee in the end, different scenarios that could possibly explain that there had been a party. There is no evidence to support that or any type of party ever happening.

We've spoken to a lot of people, and I am beyond confident that if there had been a party like Josh Burrows describes, we would have encountered someone who had knowledge of it.

The crux of it was that they're basically contending that there are dozens of kids, maybe as many as four dozen kids from what my recollection is. And nobody that you spoke to or nobody that you spoke to when I was on the trips as well, not one person was at the party. And spoke to a number of people who would have been at the party had the party taking place. So you have to question whether the party actually took place.

Yeah. I mean, even aside from the fact that no one but Josh Burrow says they were at the party, there's no evidence supporting the idea. Physically or situationally, there was no indication that there had been a party there. I think the big, the first giant red flag for me looking at the case file is that there were six guys living next to the Home Depot in trailers, workers who didn't want to leave or go far. So they just had a trailer on site right next to the Home Depot, and none of them heard a party. You heard from one of them on the show, actually. He was like, If there had been that many kids partying there, the guys who were living right there in a trailer would have seen it.

Yeah, that's pretty telling because I remember when I first got to Nantica, I was like, Why would these guys be staying at the construction site? But then you all pointed out to me town wasn't built up then, right? So they had no choice, really, but to stay in these trailers.

Yeah. They were guys who were only in town to work in place. They didn't even really leave ever. They just worked, got the job and left for a new site.

They would have heard if there was a party with dozens of kids.

I mean, theoretically, it's possible that a smaller group could have been there and escape detection. If maybe, I don't know how many, but sure, it's conceivable that three or four people could have walked over there and not been noticed. But just the scale of the party that Josh describes, no way.

Well, even if, let's say, they were away for a few hours or for a night or whatever, there was still no physical evidence of a party. So Not only did they not hear the party, but there was no beer cans, no cigarette butts, no trash. There was nothing left behind from a group of kids having a party. That also is just too hard to believe.

You can't get dozens of kids to clean up their party at a Home Depot warehouse.

Well, what if you offer them a tiny baggie of weed? But more on that next episode. But you know what? Proving a negative is hard. Trying to prove something didn't happen is a It's a cold proposition. But this podcast is a great opportunity for that because, hey, if there's someone out there who missed, if there's someone who really was at this party and here's the show, let us know. If this party actually happened, I feel pretty confident this podcast will be heard by the people who were there. Why do detectives believe that this party happened? Well, because of Josh Burrows. Josh Burrows was 14 when this happened, when we went missing and was killed. He was younger than most of the people you'll hear about on the show, but he actually did know Fuji. He hung out at Fuji's place sometimes, which is how he ended up knowing Jake. So he was friends with a lot of these people, even if he was, what, a freshman when they were all 17, 18, mostly.

The interesting thing about Josh Burrows is nobody else says that there was a party, that they attended the party. But when this person is the only eyewitness, you have to factor in here that nobody else is saying it. And I know that in the coming episodes, we're going to be looking at Josh Burrows and what he says and his story. I think that the audience will find that all shocking and compelling.

Yeah, this happened for a reason. This wasn't just something that came up out of the blue.

When I was speaking to the two of you when you were on the road and talking to him, I know that I was completely astonished when you started to fill in the gaps for me.

Yeah. I got a question for both of you. Have you ever tried Hot Damn Cinnamon Snops?

I have not. Kevin?

What is it again?

Hot Damn Cinnamon Snops. My favorite.

I've certainly had my fair share of schnapps probably around when I was 14, but no, I can't say that I have.

I mean, yeah, that part of Josh's story actually tracks. That totally makes sense is what a 14-year-old kid is going to be buying from the grocery store.

That's what you can get your hands on when you're 14, right?

Well, he could technically get his hands on everything because his story is that 33-year-old Ty Lopes went out and bought it for him.

Yeah, that's true. You just don't know any better 114, I guess.

We got a question from Anna on Twitter, and she asked, Where was the 14-year-old child's legal representative or guardian? When the interrogation was taking place. The answer is not there at the police station because they didn't have to be. The detectives in this case interviewed lots and lots of minors, and there's no indication they were particularly concerned about getting parental, not even approval, but parental notification was happening because they don't have to. There was no requirement that a minor's parents have any involvement knowledge or giving permission for them to talk to the cops.

That stunned me. I was curious to ask the two of you, and particularly you, Susan, as a lawyer, how is that possible? We all have this idea in our head that as a minor, police are required to get parental consent for an interview. But that's not the case here.

Is that a thing in law and order? Is that how people think this? Because I know it's a common belief, but it's just not true. There's no requirement for that in those states. It definitely was not here at that time in California. It's funny, though. Obviously, minors do have some restrictions or something parents have to be involved in. Here's what happens during Josh's interrogation when he makes a request of the detectives. I got a very fan.

I give you some Advil, but we'd probably have to call your dad to get permission to do that because you're not 18. They can question him without anyone there, but he can't get an Advil.

That's right. That's just nuts.

At the time in California, there's no difference here. Minors had no particular restriction on how they were talked to, interrogated, Morandize, none of that. Now, in 2018, in California, they actually did start passing laws that have changed that slightly, where for juveniles of various ages, I think actually they've now stood up to 18 all the way. But essentially, a 15-year-old cannot waive their constitutional rights without a mandatory consultation with a lawyer.

They can't waive their marandal rights without a lawyer being there to explain it to them.

Or talk to you. Usually, it's like Skype or phone.

But that's only if they're under arrest.

I was just stunned because it's always been my impression that for anything, you have to get parental consent. I guess I'm just naive. What was the deal with Caine. When Caine was getting worked over by Dallas Battle, they didn't need parental consent?

No. I mean, his mom, I believe, was in the other room, but he just went into the interview room or the office by himself, no lawyer.

I had always assumed when we talked about it, that Dallas Battle had basically done that illegally or claimed that his mother gave him permission. But as I'm understanding it now, he didn't actually need her permission.

No. No. They often ask for it, but it's not needed.

So they can't fucking vote, but they can be interrogated by police without an adult there.

They can't even get an Advil from the cops to deal with their headache. They have to.

But they can be interrogated, and they can be asked questions without an adult.

I think they wouldn't use the word interrogated. I think they'd use the word questioned.

It's a horrifying subject when you get into it because people assume there's protections here because they want to not see things like this happen, and yet they do. In this particular instance for Josh, his mom and stepdad actually were well aware of the various interrogations. For a few interviews actually happened at Josh's house. You can even hear him in the background doing chores and futzing around. They were aware of it. They didn't object to any of it. They didn't care. They were not going to stop the cops to ask for permission. But later on, Josh does say things that technically could have been construed criminally. If the cops had wanted to go for him, they very likely could have. They didn't want to, obviously, but that doesn't mean he didn't put himself in jeopardy by doing this. I mean, it's not just Josh, too. Obviously, Jake Silva, prime example. Someone who needs to know right to silence exists and does not know that.

It's also like Jake doesn't think he has anything to hide. It doesn't occur to him not to answer the questions.

It does not, and it should have.

I think from watching and listening to Jake's and Terry obligation, and I thought this from the very beginning when I first saw it, he's actually looking to figure out what happened.

Yeah. And they tell him that. They say like, Hey, we know you love Renee, and you want to help figure out what happened to her. So you got to help us figure that out by coming talk to us whenever we want to talk to you.

I start to think the clips that are played in this past episode where they're telling him, You're at the Home Depot, and we know this, and all this stuff. And he's like, I don't remember. I wasn't there. He genuinely thinks she may have been there at a party. He's confused.

Yeah. He does know the cops can lie to him. He has no idea the tech does to tell him something's untrue. The only thing he really pushes back hard on is when they start telling him Josh's story about how some of the kids were skateboarding by a flashlight through the Home Depot. And that, he's like, Wait a minute. I would definitely remember if that happened. I might believe that you know the truth better than I do, but that one, I'm pretty sure I would remember if that had been real.

Yeah, he's like, Maybe I can believe I was at a party and forgot because I got too drunk or whatever, but I would remember candles and skateboarding.

Yeah, and that had never dawned on me before that it was that pitch black. Fuji drove that home for me in the episode. This is not possible. We couldn't have been doing this.

Yeah. Where's the candle wax and where are the leftover candles?

I mean, Josh's story has some problems, and we're going to get more into that next week. But for now, to give you an idea of why investigators maybe should not put all their faith in Josh Burrows, let's take the issue of when the When this party happened. Now, you heard in the episode, as was said at trial, that the party happens roughly on Memorial Day, maybe after, but roughly that time period. But here's Josh's full answer when detectives ask him when the party happened.

Okay, then. That was back in what month? Do you remember? Memorial? I remember being Memorial Day, but I think it was March or April.

I know it was close to 420 because that's pot heads holiday.

I think it was a month after that. So you think it was around the holiday, though, right? Yeah. Okay. So I know for a fact.

You can hear Josh in this clip say, I think it was March or April. I know it was close to 4:20 because that's pot heads all day. But obviously, 4:20 is not Memorial Day. Josh is maybe talking about an actual party that happened sometime, somewhere. But what he's talking about did not happen between Memorial Day in May, the end of May, and when Renee's body was found.

It happened in the March Memorial Day, obviously. March.

Even if he had been talking about some party that happened at Home Depot, I mean, certainly somebody else would have remembered it being in April, not May. Nobody seems to remember it at all.

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As a result of Josh Burrow's story, the detectives end up arresting three men, Jake, Ty, and Ray. You hear for the first time from Ty, from part of his interrogation. Now, Manteca police has declined request to access the audio of that interview. They gave it to real interrogations, don't want to give it to us, can't imagine why. But you also heard this episode about an incident that happened before all this between Jake and Renee and Ty. The word they use in the transcripts in the court is molesting. They say that Ty molested Renee. I'll just use their verbiage, although I'm not sure how I it. But essentially, there was one night when Jake and Renee have nowhere else to go, and rather than sleep in a park or something, they end up getting an offer from Ty to sleep on his floor. So they do that. In the middle of the night, Renee wakes Jake up, frantic, and says, Ty was trying to reach down her pants. So they flee the room. And then later, when Jake sees Ty on the street, pushes him down, kicks him in the head. Now, all of this definitely happened.

The story you hear on the show is from Jake, but it's something that Ty verifies indirectly. He He massively distorts and downplays the incident of both the molestation of Renee and the battery later on. But he does confirm suddenly that happens. We also know that Renee told at least a couple of people. At the time, this was all happening about it. It's not something that Jake's making up. It's real. This thing happened. On the one hand, it does show that Jake and Ty did hang out together. They had a history of hanging out and knowing one another. On the other, though, it makes Ty an extremely odd choice of accomplice a crime like this.

Right. Because why, after Ty did this to Renee, why would Jake go to Ty and be like, Hey, do you want to kill Renee with me? Why would he ever consider approaching Ty?

Yeah. It's Jake who first names Ty as a suspect when they're asking him that first interrogation, who could have done this? Who didn't get what was? And he says, Well, Ty's probably pissed him because I kicked him in the head.

I had a question about this. So are they still Are they still hanging out after this happens?

Tie in.

And Jake? No. Well, no. The story that Jake would say is no. The story that the prosecution would say is yes.

Yeah. I mean, that's one of the interesting things is that if they're not hanging out, It's incredibly unlikely that they would somehow even be together to do something like this.

Yeah, it's definitely a problem. And this prosecution does have a way of trying to repair that, which we'll hear about later on. But they obviously knew it was a problem for them because it It makes it hard to understand how these dynamics even could have played out.

I think one of the things that stood out for me in the episode and the interrogations is they're basically telling Jake that Ty said X, and they're telling Ty that Jake said X. There's nothing illegal about them doing that. I just think that they're basing everything on this one eyewitness testimony from Josh Burrows, and they're creating another scenario inside the minds of these two suspects. When people start telling you things, I think certainly in Jake's case, you assume that you're being told something that's accurate. That creates problems in a person's mind.

Although I think for Jake, I think for him, it made more sense that Ty would say some crazy shit about him. I don't think he was faced by that.

I disagree that I think Jake, it just confused him even more. Are like, Why would Ty say that? Why would he even say that? You can hear the frustration and the confusion in his voice. Like Kevin said, he has no reason to question what the detectives are telling him. He believes them.

I think it starts to become this situation where he's wondering why these people are saying he's having this party or something because he just confused because he didn't know anything about it. I think he's operating under the idea that everything he's being told is accurate.

Yeah. Although he does say at one point, He's like, Can you tell me who's saying this? What if it's someone who has a grudge against me and is lying about it? I guess in his head, he's thinking maybe someone who doesn't like him or is mad at him because of Renee would be making some lies to the cops. But yeah.

There's almost this naiveté to that. He's giving everybody the benefit of the doubt, or maybe it's somebody who doesn't like me. I don't think he grasps the fact that he's playing for his life right now.

No, he definitely does not. In a lot of respects, Jake would be the perfect setup for a wrongful confession. It has a lot of the elements that you see in a lot of false confession cases. Not a minor, but very close to being one, just a month away from being a minor, basically. Not that well-educated, not well-versed in how the legal system works, emotional, desperate, cornered, intense pressure tactics. A lot of the stuff that you expect to see in a false confession case is there. But I actually believe that Jake would never have falsely confessed. That's just not even on the menu for him. It doesn't even occur to him. That's an option.

Yeah, because he's not going to say something. I mean, from my impression of the interrogation, he's not going to say something that he didn't do. I agree with you. I don't think he'd be one of those people where if he was told, If you confess, this ends and you can go home. I don't think... I still think he'd stay there for all time, just say, Well, I didn't do anything.

Now, a lot of you guys had questions about what was going on with Jake and Renee and why they were out in the streets and what exactly their situation was. On the show, you've heard people describe the way they were living as basically fine, just a thing kids did. You've heard others express more concern and alarm about it and that they didn't think it was a great situation for Renee or for Jake, for that matter, to be in. I think both things here are true in a way. This was more than just kids being kids. Quite frankly, this is not something that someone does when everything in their life is perfectly rosy and fine. But also it's not as extreme a thing to be doing as it might seem to some listeners. It was definitely a more normalized behavior for their circle in that place and time.

I didn't find it shocking when I was out there working with you guys on the story. It all seemed to make sense. This is just how that group of kids functioned, and nobody would have thought it was crazy. And had Jake not broken the windshield, they would have just been living in the car. Yeah.

If you look on our Facebook page, the proof Facebook page, a lot of people have written in from Manteca who lived there during this time period and who have expressed, This wasn't out of the ordinary. This is just what we did back then. I think you're right. For people listening who aren't familiar with that lifestyle or those choices, it's going to raise flags. But at this time, for this group of kids.

I think it still raise flags. It's still a sign something was a miss, I think.

It's a little off, in my opinion, but it's also a different town back then. It just didn't seem like it was probably merely as dangerous dangerous living on the street then as it would be now.

Anyway, I figured I'd let Jake answer some of the more specific questions that we got since he's the one who was there living it at the time. A lot of people had the similar thoughts that I did, quite frankly, when I started working on the case, that Renee and you were either on drugs or else that Renee was engaged in prostitution to try and get by.

No, she never did no shit like that. No, there was no drugs involved either. We drank. Like I said, we drink. King Cobra still reserved 211 was our favorite, but no drugs. She wasn't prostituting. She wasn't getting along with her mom. I wasn't getting along with my dad. That was the only way we could be together. It felt good. It was a great feeling being able to do whatever we wanted. We had her call. We had to do whatever we wanted. It was a great feeling. She being 17, 18.

On a scale of one to 10, how confident were you that she was not prostituting?

100 %. Why? Was she behind my back or something? No, no, no.

Do you get what people would look at this case and wonder that, though?

I guess, yeah. As I was dialing your number, calling you back, I was thinking about that like, No, it would have never happened. That would have never went down. Fuck, no. The jealous as jealous as I was and as much as I loved Renee. Fuck, hell, no.

There's one thing I think Jake is a little wrong about. In his mind, and in the minds of a lot of people actually who knew Renee, there's this idea that Renee left home to be with him, that Jake's the reason Renee left her house and stopped living with her family. But I think the idea that it was all about Jake doesn't quite fit what was happening. It wasn't just about Jake. We talked to Renee's friend, Jackie, who you'll hear from more later in the season, but she showed us the scrapbook she'd made of things from Renee from back then and told us what she was like. Here's a clip. But she really wanted kids, wanted a family. There was in that scrapbook, when you were flipping and I saw the color, I was like, Oh, there was a wheel we had to make in Homec, and it was our five-year plan goal. I think that I'd- Oh, I saw the wheel in there. The wheel, yeah. So that's what that was. That was from our Home Ec class. When after she passed our Home Ec teacher, she ended up giving it to me. What was hers?

So hers was graduate, get married, quit smoking, move out in April, which I don't know why April was a significant month for her, but move out in April and then get a job.

She turned 18 in April.

Oh, yeah, that's true. April 17th would have been... So then she would have been like, Peace out. I'm an actual adult. So bye. So she was plotting this. Yeah. And this So this was made the first week of junior year, second period, apparently. And back then, school started at the very, very end of August or the very first week of September is the time frame this would have been made. So she was plotting that for some time. Yeah, beginning of junior year.

So in that clip, you can hear Renee's friend talk about this project and that she had a plan to leave home when she turned 18. This was a plan that she noted at the beginning of when Jake and Renee had just started dating, but it seems like it's something she had talked about and thought about. Maybe it was an idea she had in mind already, and Jake was just someone who helped her achieve that dream, if you want to call it that.

I just never take anything that anyone says is face value at that age.

Maybe that's true, but it does, to me, at least, indicate that the idea of leaving, it didn't originate with Jake, anyway.

Yeah, I don't think it originated with Jake. I think Renee wanted to leave home, probably wanted to be independent, wanted to start her life. Jake was someone who it just happened to work out with that she did that. She found the courage or whatever, the drive, whatever she needed to actually make it happen. Yeah.

So next week, episode 4, we're going to hear more about Ty Lopes and who he was and how he got involved in this case and what happened at this trial. So tune in then and we'll catch you next week on The Sidebar.

You've been listening to Proof Sidebar, a podcast by Red Marble Media in Association with Glassbox Media. Send us your questions and comments at proofcrimepod@gmail. Com. Follow us everywhere with the handle @proofcrimepod and on our website, proofcrimepod. Com. Regular episodes drop on Mondays, and you can find Sidebars on Thursdays. Thanks so much for listening.