You are listening to the Reality Steve podcast with your host reality. Steve, he's got all the latest info and behind the scenes juice on Taisha season of The Bachelorette and interviewing some of your favorite reality stars. Now, here's a reality, Steve. What's up, everybody? Welcome to podcast number 13, I am your host reality. We've got a very, very interesting show for you this week, someone that I don't know a lot of you are familiar with.

But you should be after this podcast. Her name is Susannah and she runs the bachelor data Instagram account at BATCHELLER Data. You've got to check it out. I'm telling you, some of the more interesting stuff you'll see on the Internet regarding this Bachelor franchise. Before we get started, though, I do want to talk about a few things.

Not too much here. As I said in my column earlier this week in regards to the spoilers for this season. I'm recording this open on Wednesday night. I still don't have. Anything in regards to the ending of Tatia season, what did I report to you at the beginning of the season? I said teachers and teacher pick Zack. There was no engagement, but I didn't know the status of their relationship. And then this week, I laid out everything in terms of what I've been hearing, and the latest thing I heard was post show there was a breakup between Zak and Tatia and.

She has begun speaking to Brendan, but I said, look. That's what I'm hearing, and I have no confidence in that whatsoever if it ends up being true. I'm not going to take credit, like, oh, I knew the ending, I'm going to say I should have put more stock into it. I just haven't gotten the confirmation that I need normally when I hear stuff. So I was just laying out there everything this week of what I told you happened or what I told you I'm hearing happened.

I don't know if that's true, but I wanted to let you know. I guess it's a possibility. If you were to ask me right now what I think, I really don't know. I I don't know what happens at the end of their season. I can guess based on things we've kind of seen. I mean, I think it is pretty clear. The other thing I heard at the beginning of the season that I posted was that Brendon left on his own.

He self eliminated. I think we can see that in the previews. It's pretty stuff together. It's looks like he he definitely leaves at the Knight portion of his overnight date before he is about to spend the night with a tatia.

But after that, like, I don't I don't have anything definitive.

If you were to ask me what I think happens, I would just go back to what I originally reported, the beginning of the year, beginning of the season before the season started. I said, expect Zach and there's no engagement.

And I don't know the relationship status now. And Brennan himself eliminates I think that's probably where we're at. But the other thing being, I just don't know what their relationship is, you know, are they still together? Have they gotten engaged since the ending? I don't know.

But if you're asking me who do I think she picks, I do think she picks back. I don't I don't think that has changed, really, in my mind based on anything I've heard. The thing about Brendan and them talking and her and Zach already breaking up, I have no idea if that's true or not. No clue. I didn't get the proof that I needed or the solid confirmation that I needed. So I just threw it out there and just let you know.

And if it doesn't, if that ends up being it, you know, for all those who keep my track record of everything that I get right or wrong on the show, you can just chalk this one up to, I don't know, and inconclusive or an incomplete. I didn't finish my homework assignment because. Yeah, I mean, I guess if it ends up being what happens that that I said at the beginning of the season that she's with, she picked Zach.

There was no engagement. I mean, I guess you could say I got that part, you know, right, the main thing like who did you pick and did they get engaged? The answer, you know, if that ends up happening, I had that before the season.

But so the show is just like they love keeping up, having whatever happened at the end of the show, continue on after the show. And by the time we get to the ending, sometimes things have changed. I think three of the last four seasons, the ending has changed from what we saw on the finale to what happens on the after the final rose.

So I don't even think they're doing it after the final rose this year, which also lends a lot of credibility to the fact that the Brendin stuff probably isn't true. So because if that were true, they would want some sort of update, right, to tell people, hey, this is what's going on with Tasha and Brendon or whatever.

So like I said, it's it's a lot of messiness. If I can get some sort of answer by Monday or Tuesday, by all means, I will give it to you. But if you're asking me what I think, probably stick with what I originally said before the season Pigs Act, no engagement and I don't know what their status is right now, so. There's that again, everything from last week's podcast with Taylor's ex-husband that was all in yesterday's column.

Go, go read that.

Even if you are somebody that hated what Josh said and hated the fact that I even gave him a platform, I would go read some of the emails that people sent in yesterday and just kind of open your mind to things and just realize that it probably wasn't as bad as you thought it was.

I I mean, I knew what I was getting into by putting him on because he's talking negatively or even if it's you don't think it's negatively, it's just he's the things that he are saying is going against somebody who's very well-liked in the franchise, Teisha.

So, of course, you're going to have way more people disliking him just based on that fact alone than than liking him. But the people who came to my defense and and laid out really good examples and really good reasons as to why what he said wasn't nearly as bad as what a lot of people thought.

Garridos in yesterday's column, if you'd like. If not, that's OK, too. So but let's get started here. Very interesting person. That I don't know if you know about her Instagram page, that her name is Susannah and she runs the bachelor data. Instagram account that I think after this interview you should all start following and you'll want to all start following after this. So here we go with podcast number two 13.

OK, let's bring her in. Her name is Susannah and she runs the Instagram account BATCHELLER data, which is truly one of the more fascinating accounts out there right now. And and that's why I wanted to bring you on. Susanna, thanks for coming on. I really appreciate it.

Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to talk some data today.

Yeah, I'm a numbers guy. I've said it for years. I love math. I was the guy that was better at algebra than geometry. I liked the math. I grew up on sports statistics and stuff like that. So what you're doing is is right up my alley. And, you know, rather than follow each individual person and track their increase in followers, you're basically do my work for me. So thank you. It's a lot easier that way.

And really, there really is nothing even close to it, at least that I've seen on the Internet that is dissecting this shows statistics like you do. This is a really fascinating account that is less than a year old. So I wanted to introduce people to it, introduce people to you, and will dive into some of the stuff that you do for people that are unfamiliar with it.

But I first I want to start out with just kind of introducing yourself and letting us know who you are, your background, how you got started with this idea. Why are you so fascinated with the statistics of this show? Yes.

So I actually started this project back in December of twenty eighteen. I am a technology director for a school district out here in Massachusetts. And as I was taking on that role of becoming a technology director, I thought it was probably about time for me to learn how to use spreadsheets a little bit better. At the time, I thought I knew how to use them pretty well just because I knew how to do a basic, you know, some formula.

But nothing sounded worse to me at the time than taking an Excel class. It just sounded really dry. So I decided to start tracking the followers on the show during the airing of the seasons to see what happened and then play with the data instead. So it's kind of like a passion project. You something fun to learn how to use spreadsheets better. And then throughout the seasons I started posting about my data on the bachelor sub Reddit.

And I go, you know, back in twenty eighteen, it was a really small sub.

Read it. It was only about thirty thousand subscribers on it. Now it's it's well over one hundred fifty thousand followers or subscribers. It was a pretty small community at the time and it was, there were a lot of people who were really interested in the data and they were providing really awesome feedback that helped me learn how to use spreadsheets better.

And at the time, I was just posting screenshots of my spreadsheet. And then I started to realize that most people don't look at numbers and just be able to calculate it in their head. So I started to explore data visualization. And at the end of Peter's season, back in February, I decided to start posting about it on Instagram. And that was just before, you know, the world just went into full covered mode, including myself. So it's been really fun to post about this on Instagram.

I really push myself on the visualization side on showing the data and be able to tell stories around it and really learning more about the show and the data itself.

Yeah, I mean, this stuff that you're doing is super intricate. Like you are dissecting things the average fan doesn't even think about, I'm sure, when they're watching this show.

But in twenty twenty in this day and age of social media, it absolutely is information and statistics that I believe, you know, people want to see. We all talk about like who's got the most followers. And and even though I haven't checked for a few days, I'm going to go to the expert here. I still assume that Hannah Brown and Tyler Cameron are number one. And number two in terms of most followers in Bachelor Nation, female and male.

Yes. What is Hannah Brown at right now?

She's still above two million. She's impressively kept her and she was able to cheat and steal close to three.

Yeah, yes. Oh, no, no, not she's not close to three yet. She's normally hovering around two point two million. But what was really interesting was with everything that went down this summer, her following. Oh, yeah, it's at two point seven. So it is actually closer to three million. Yeah.

And 2.8 this summer when everything went down, I thought looking at a like. Yeah. Curious to see how much she loses if any, and she really didn't lose much.

I mean if you look at two point seven versus two point eight million and you look at that number and you say, oh well it's one hundred thousand followers that she lost in the grand scheme of things, when you have two point eight million followers that. Not a big loss, so that was what I started to find through following these numbers, is looking at the intricacies of what's happening on the show or in the news and seeing how the U.S. reacts to it or just the watchers of the show, especially now that's gone international.

It's been really interesting to see who trends up, but then also finding the space in between the data. So, you know, it's not just who has the most followers, but who's having the biggest growth rates compared to their follower count as a consequence of what's happening on the show or in the media.

Yeah, I mean, Tyler Cameron is at two point two million. He was the one that's probably you were mixing him up with. Yeah, he's the one at two point two million.

He's the highest male Portas contestant in the show's history in terms of followers no one else has to point to. I don't think anybody else is even in the news yet for male right.

Kolten, maybe close or was he was hovering around two million, but ever since he wiped his Instagram account, he's been trending down.

Yeah, that would that would do it for you, Piers.

Also doing really well to Peter Cross or Peter Piper. Yeah.

So he was above two million for a bit, but he's now down to one point nine million, OK.

The growth rate to me is interesting because it's not like it's just not so much you just saying who has the most because any of us can just pull up someone's Instagram account, look at their number and be like, OK, they got this money. You're breaking it down on a seasonal basis, a weekly basis. On a daily basis. Hell, sometimes even hourly basis. Like why? And what is it? What does it show you?

Well, what I wanted to see was what happens on the show that leads to it. And that's a pretty basic question to ask. And then when you start diving into it, it it gets pretty complex because then you start wanting to analyse screen time. And that in itself is just a nightmare to figure out how to calculate. But what I this season's actually a great example where you look at Blake, who, you know, he just got eliminated this week and he's been holding pretty high in the top five most followed contestants all season.

But if you look week to week like, you know, the past few weeks, his growth rates been really low. So he hasn't been gaining very many followers compared to what he currently has. But then if you look at people that do get a lot of screen time, like really got a ton of screen time this week, like Blake, for example, he has growth rate was only nine percent based on his previous follower count, whereas Reilly had a forty seven percent growth rate.

So it's interesting to kind of combine what their screen time has been versus what their growth rate has been. And you can find a lot of interesting trends there. So my first season was Coltons and one of the first trends that I found was actually Tatia. So Taisho was final three and it took a week after hometown dates for her to break the top 10 most followed contestants on her season. Yeah, I mean, she had people above her that had went home on week five and she couldn't break top ten.

She was getting screentime. She was going on the one on one dates. She had a storyline.

But, you know, the the Dimmy, the Dimi was ahead of her. But even some other people that you just you don't remember were ahead of her. You know, whatever you start sharing that data, it leads to a lot of impactful conversations about, you know, the show and what's the show doing around different people, especially when you look at non-white contestants. But then it also tells you a lot about the viewers and who they're choosing to follow.

Yeah, I mean, after you say that, I mean, my question to you would be, Susanna, why do you hate you so much?

I'm just kidding. You just you know, you said she was outside the top ten even though she was in final three, but she couldn't even break top ten followers. So that must mean you hate her. I must mean, you have an implicit bias against her. It must mean your statement has racist undertones. And I don't appreciate it. So I'm kicking you off the podcast. Kidding. I'm just used to hearing that. I mean, what am I?

One of my goals for bachelor data, though, is to create content that starts conversations between people who watch the show.

And I like I get a lot of flat. For watching the show, you know, whenever I get to work and I'm like, oh yeah, did you see last night's episode of The Bachelor? And people raise their eyebrow. But, you know, I've always enjoyed data driven conversations. As an educator, I used to be an elementary teacher and now working in educational technology and being able to bring that type of data perspective to the world of the Bachelor to drive those conversations is something that hasn't.

Really happened on a detailed level and, you know, sometimes those conversations are silly, like how many times is the word Dale mentioned? But then other times that data can drive really uncomfortable conversations on things like white privilege with family members who still don't see those glaring inequities in representation. But what's exciting about it all is that it's it's all rooted in data. And having collect this data is now leading to some really awesome conversations around it.

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This may seem so obvious and simple, but is it safe to say that on any given episode that airs someone who gets a one on one or let's say is in the top three of screen time for that particular episode, will gain the most followers in the next 24 hours after the episode airs now this season?

Yes, but I haven't always seen that. So I always like to go back to Kolten season because it was the first year I started to see this. But Taisho was one of the ones that if you looked at a heat map, each episode of Who Gained the most followers the week after, you could easily see who had one on one dates with the exception of Tatia. So and that's happened on other seasons, too. So it's not just a show that would be an example, but on Hanesbrands season, Z did not gain incredible amounts and was not the highest gains after his one on one dates.

But I think that there was also some bias and that that a lot of people knew about the story that was growing behind the scenes about his ex girlfriend. Yeah. Girlfriend when he went on the show.

Yeah, that's kind of my I kind of my thoughts on the breakdown of screen time. It's almost like you might get a one on one, which is usually a fifteen minute segment. But it's also got to be positive because someone like Yoseph, if he's berating Claire while the screen time focus was on him, that's not going to translate into oh, let me go follow him on Instagram because I really care what this guy thinks about things after watching him perform on unclever season.

And you know, you even had it this week on your latest update or one of your most two most recent updates. You know, bachelorette Instagram growth from Episode ten, which was Monday's episode. Yeah.

Was his Monday's episode that Yossef, who appeared on the mental looking at his statistics, he gained three hundred and seventy two followers in the twenty four hours after Monday's episode airs aired and he had two point seven percent of the screen time. The overall to our screen time that the episode was on on Monday and again, three hundred seventy two followers, so you compare that to some of the other guys, granit, they had way more screen time. Like you said, Yoseph was only at two point seven percent.

But someone like Ben Ben wasn't even on the show on Monday. Well, he was on. I mean, he was you can even put him next to Ed.

I mean, in that that post, he's right next to Ed. And Ed had almost the same amount of screen time, one point eight percent of the entire episode. Yet Ed gained fifteen hundred followers and had a twenty seven twenty six percent growth rate. Yeah. So I think something that's really interesting with Yossef and I don't give my opinions a ton, I, I really just like to look at the data, you know, looking at villains. Right.

There's different types of villains that we have on this show. So you have like the Olivia Accretes that are, you know, just totally producer made was not actually a villain, but they edited it and really just stirred up drama to make them look and be the villain on the season.

Olivia wasn't actually a villain, but then you have like the Chad Johnson's or the jokes that are like.

They're really just they should have vetted these guys better and not brought on people like this, but be able to see that type of data to see that was one of my opinions that I shared this week, was it's actually good to see this type of. To see that this type of negative is just disgusting, behavior isn't being reinforced by followers.

Well, now that I'm looking at this, your bachelorette Instagram growth for Episode 10, the 23 hour update, which was everything that happened after the episode off the air.

So you have been at zero screen time on Monday. Obviously, we know he wasn't in the second hour because that was all mental. Yeah, Ben was not ever shown in the first hour of Monday's episode, so that would have been Blake's one on one and then. The rose ceremony like so he never got any screen time yet, he gained 12000 followers on Monday.

So here's the interesting thing about how I calculate screen time. Yes, that way. First, he said I was going to be. My next question is, how exactly do you calculate screen time?

Yeah, so this is a tricky one, because in past seasons I started to calculate how long each segment was, especially towards the end of the season. So hometown date starts. Hometown date ends. OK, that's how long. I don't know. Tasha's hometown date was this season. I wanted to get down and get real data on items, who's talking? And I sat down for a few hours. The first time I tried to do this to really try to iron out a type of criteria to figure out how you calculated it.

And I landed on calling it feature screen time. And basically what featured screen time is, is any time that they are on the screen talking. So if Taisha is on a one on one date and they cut to her in an item, that time starts calculating towards her. But if you have been in NOAA on a two on one and they're bickering back and forth, if the screen is on Noah's face, but it's Binit that's talking, the time goes towards Bennett.

So it's there's a lot of different criteria that go towards it. But just simply being on the screen doesn't it doesn't mean that you're going to get screen time, because when Tatia came in to go talk to the guys after she broke up with Blake and then she took Riley out while Ben was physically on the screen, we did see him on that couch, but we didn't really see him talk. There was a one second snippet that he spoke in passing as she was walking in.

He didn't get an item. And you didn't see him talking when the guys were talking about Riley leaving or not coming back. So that time was calculated towards other contestants, like Zach was really heavily featured in that segment, talking back and forth with some other contestants about Riley leaving. So that's how it's calculated. And it's it's an absolute nightmare to calculate every week. I love my data work that I do, but the worst parts of my week are having to sit down to collect this data because it's manual.

It's starting and stopping my Amazon video to figure out the exact minute and second for each person. It's horrible.

And you're doing this for fun like you're not. As far as I know, you're not getting paid for this. Right? This is just a hobby.

I'm not this is a hobby. And it's it's really just become not only a great project for me to learn all this data visualization, but in my job as a technology director for my school district, I do run a lot of the data collection. You know, right now we're doing a ton of surveys around bringing kids back to school. So I really work on getting that raw data and making it something we can work with. And the best part of this hobby has been it's benefited me professionally.

So it helps me as soon as I go to actually create a dashboard for my district, for different people to use. I don't to sit there for hours agonizing over color theory or the design or the layout. I can look at data better now to figure it out.

Well, I can tell you one other thing. You might not be getting paid for this, but it is useful. And I guarantee you, you know, you're starting to to grow this. I guarantee you that a lot of other podcasts, including myself. I absolutely will. And on my website will just start referencing you a lot more and referencing so and so's gain and followers. Did you see this? Did you see on BATCHELLER data were so and so only gained X amount of followers, even though they had a one on one and stuff like that.

It's going to drive conversation for sure. It definitely will. On this podcast, I'm going to reference it probably a lot going forward because I only found out about this like two weeks ago. I didn't realize this was happening and that you were doing this and putting it on Instagram. So it's been great. I'm looking at Monday again. I'm looking at this after Monday's episode, the twenty three hour update. And it is amazing because Ben Smith had zero percent screen time, according to your calculations, yet he gained the most followers.

Twenty four hours after Monday's episode ended, he gained twelve thousand. Second place was Riley, who had his exit, had twelve percent screen time, yet he gained eleven thousand.

And, you know, it's just it is fascinating to look at because it's and look, maybe some people are intimidated by math. And I know there are people out there that absolutely hate numbers and hate.

It's like, look, you don't have to do any sort of addition, subtraction, multiplication or division in your head. Suzanne is doing it all for you.

All you got to do is look and look at BATCHELLER data and look at these charts. I mean, I think we can all read pie charts. I think we can all rebar graphs. I mean, that's basically what you're doing. And it's very, very simple. I hope more people, you know, start looking at this stuff. But, yeah, I'm I'm now curious to see. When is when is Tuesday's episode, the 24 hour update, when is that coming?

It normally comes around right now, but this week has been pretty rough, not only for bachelor related stuff with two episodes and data collection, but also with work. We Google had a massive outage earlier this week and it just has felt like stuff has been coming up since. So it'll probably be coming out on Thursday or later tonight. But it's it's a it's not a bad process. It's just more of the screen time that takes some time to collect.

But it's really exciting. And on the topic of of being able to show that data, what I found is the best data visualizations are the ones that you you don't need to be able to do the math yourself. It's just ones that you can pull up and you can easily figure out what data is without having to calculate it yourself. And that's that's also been pushing me and a lot of the awesome feedback I've been getting, especially since I started putting this on Instagram.

I've had people from, you know, actual data scientists in my in my direct messages. And then I also have actual designers who work with color palettes reaching out to me with recommendations and feedback. And then I also have some contestants reaching out, giving a lot of really interesting insights from their perspective on the data. But it's it's really helped me grow my understanding of data visualization for other people to be able to easily use it and then how to, you know, appropriately tell the stories around the data.

Yeah, I mean, because it's not there's so many different. It's the graphics are great. It's very easy to read. And there are some things that come out right away, like the episode segments. You know, after Monday's episode, I think within an hour your episode segment breakdown was already up. And then last night, same thing. Just, you know, when you look at let's just take Tuesday's episode, for example, we know that there were four hometown dates and there's a rose ceremony and there's commercials and it's pretty simple, broken down.

This is not one of the more intricate breakdowns. But, you know, Brendan's hometown took 15 minutes. Zach's 15 minutes, Ivens 18 minutes, Ben's 14 minutes. The rose ceremony overall took 13 minutes. There were 38 minutes of commercials, non date time, which I'm assuming is Tatia. Just what? But getting dressed and stuff like that, or if the is getting ready or the guys walking in and then two minutes of previews and there's are two hours all covered in a in a pie chart.

So that makes you look like about it seemed like this was up about an hour after the show ended last Tuesday night.

Yeah, I actually fell asleep at the end of the episode, so I had to go back and rewind it to take it as soon as I was woken up. But the thing about the data and be able to put that out there so quickly is that I feel like we're just in a time where information is on such overload. You know, we're already feeling that in past years. But this year, with twenty twenty being what it's been, I feel like the information is just too much for us all to, you know, really be able to digest and being able to visualize that data can solve that problem and be able to use our eyes to see more patterns and connections that matter and then just be able to spark those conversations.

So I see a lot of people who will share that post on their stories and tag me, but then they'll give their insights and I'll be like, wow, I did think that that that date was so boring. You know, in talking, some people were tagging about how Brendon's date wasn't as impactful as events and then actually being able to see the time to back it up to see, OK, there was a little bit more time spent on Ivan's date.

So that makes sense from the data perspective.

Well, for me, just watching it last last night with with the naked eye, it seemed to me that Ben's hometown lasted. Half of what the other guys did, but it didn't it was it was 14 minutes and to me that was actually surprising.

I knew that if you were to ask me after that episode ended with me for your pie chart came out, who had the longest I would have said Ivan, I just felt like I just seemed a little bit longer. But the fact that Ben and Brendan and Zach had exactly the same 15 minutes and Ben only had one minute less, I was like, oh, I texted somebody.

I texted one of my friends last night after the Ben one on one date and said. Was his hometown five minutes long because it seemed like it. So, yeah, I mean, you just kind of lose track and stuff like that.

You know, there's also some psychology there, though, because I even had more commercials. So he had more segments throughout his state. So it made it feel longer, whereas Brennan's was pretty much all in one shot.

Yeah, that's right. Because even when when they introduced Ivan's brother, they went to a commercial break and then when they came back, it was that meeting. So, yeah, they didn't have a.

They didn't have and I think he might have actually had two interruptions and everyone else had one the day portion went to commercial and then they come back for the night porch. And I don't think anybody had 15. Zach and Brenda didn't have 15 consecutive minutes of a hometown, did they, or did they know, OK? It was day portioned commercial night portion, right? Yep.

OK, you mentioned about contestants have reached out to you and shared interesting things with you. I don't need you to name anybody by name, but what are some of the things that you've gotten feedback wise from contestants?

Yeah, so again, I try to keep a lot of my opinion out of it. But what I'm learning is that I'm trying to navigate how to share data on contestants that isn't exactly favorable in their light. So I've actually had some people reach out to me asking why I stopped tagging contestants and all my posts just so that they could easily navigate to look at their profiles. And I think some of the conversations have kind of made me feel a little bit weird about it, because if it isn't exactly the best data while the data is true.

It can also hurt them and their humans and, you know, I really do pay a lot of attention to the segments where Caitlyn Bristo is talking about. That was one of the first ones I remember where they were talking about just the horrible vitriol that's set online to them and their dreams. Yeah, and I see it myself. I mean, I I've been I get DM's all the time of people being like, hey, have you looked at this page?

Their numbers are really sketchy. They look like they're buying followers. And it's really hard these days to be able to really pinpoint when people are buying followers, especially, you know, during Kolton season, it was really easy to identify it because of different things, like looking at have they been eliminated? Are there any stories out there about them in the media? Are they posting anything? And they randomly had this 20 thousand followers jump after losing five hundred followers the previous day?

Yeah, so I, I try not to ever explicitly say, yes, this person's buying followers because it's hard to find that. But at the same time, I'm also trying to navigate that. These are people on the other side that are trying to make a living off of it, and I don't blame them for it. I mean, if you look at these people who are coming on the show and gaining hundreds of thousands of followers simply for being on TV, and then they have to suddenly pivot that into a career where they have to be these social media savvy people who understand what their followers will engage with and buy so that they can continue to get these brand partnerships.

I think it's important that that stays in mind when sharing that data because it can hurt them.

Yeah. And, you know, you mentioned something right there that that triggered something with me that. Made me think of a different question for you is that what you're doing is tracking all this stuff just based on show stuff. Imagine if you had to include. Any story on People magazine about them, any story on US Weekly about them and then tracking, did their follower jump, did their follower in Greece, did their follower count in Greece because a story came out about them on one of the tabloid sites, which I'm sure it would, but you're only doing it just based off show stuff, right?

Or are you including stuff like that? Yes and no.

So I had a very amazing person who reached out to me early on who was enjoying my posts back in those 20 beginning of 2019, because when I first started this, I was manually opening every single profile every day to collect all their Instagram follower accounts. And this person wrote me a script that essentially scrapes. It's called Web Scraping that goes and pulls their Instagram followers. And I just run a script. It's it's amazing.

And it worked really well for a while where I was able to just run it every day. And I was literally tracking over 600 people that I've ever been on the show.

But in the last, I'd say year, Instagram has been getting really finicky over, you know, APIs that do this. And it's I'm constantly having to reach out to this amazing person who wrote it for me to help troubleshoot it with different things, to try to get around it. But there are some times where I'll see that something massive just happen and I'll pop over and start tracking those people. So over the summer when I was solely trying to get my personal life back and trying to not work 15 hours a day with the whole shutdown and school systems, I started tracking Hanabi and Tylor consistently around the whole quarantine crew and I was also tracking that.

So I do track it sometimes, but right now I'm just focusing on the seasons until I can either. Instagram stops blocking, everybody was trying to scrape pages or we can figure out a better solution with them.

And that was my next question to you. For people that are not even understanding how you're keeping track of this. So you're saying before you started this and before you were able to write a script for this, you would literally have to pull up.

Let's just say you were covering one season, Peter, season 25. However, many women who had 25 or 30, you had them all on some sort of spreadsheet. And once a day, maybe at the same time, every night, you would go and be like, OK, let me pull up her Instagram. Let me write down how many followers she has. Let me pull up hers. And you had to do that 30 times a day every day.

Yes, it was horrible. We'd be on vacation. And we I remember that year we went out to Colorado to go ski. And I came back from our fourth day and I dislocated my knee or partially dislocated it while skiing. And I had to take out my laptop to take all of our accounts because I needed the data and I'm so grateful. But it's still pretty finicky right now with Instagram. So there are some days where I'm doing it or family members doing it for me if I'm swamped with work just until we can get it ironed out.

But it isn't as horrible now. Gotten faster with it whenever I need to do it. But definitely so grateful for Emily, who reached out to me to build that script.

So this script that you have right now that set on, let's you know, let's just say all of all of his men named.

Every night at a certain time, it just says, OK, here's their new follower count, and all you have to do is compare it to the day before and that shows you your growth or decline.

Sort of. I use Max. So if anybody's listening who understands the technical side, I just open this app called Terminal, which essentially runs on the core of your computer. And I run the script and I try to do it around 8:00 p.m. Eastern every night so I can stay consistent. And I just put in a few lines of code and then it just does it. So it just runs for like five, six minutes. And then it just appears on my Google sheet, it's like magic.

And I'm trying to learn Python right now. If anybody understands coding languages, I can learn how to do it myself. But it's it's pretty spectacular what it can do.

This is this is fascinating. I'm geeking out over all this, and I don't even know half the words that you're saying right now. So let's get into some of the fun stuff about this. When and I don't know if you you might have some of these numbers in front of you or at least give your best guess based on. Looking at this stuff every day. First off, buying followers versus sponsored posts.

I'm confused by this because I've seen sponsored posts show up in my Instagram feed. But then if you do a sponsored posts, a sponsored post, does that mean you're buying followers? How does it work? OK, so there's there's really three categories here. Whenever we talk about buying followers or sponsored posts, you can either buy followers. So that's like buying bots or just fake accounts that will inflate your follower account. And they're typically not real accounts. Then you have sponsored posts.

We see those a ton. You see him with influencers to contestants that become influencers, and that's where they're partnering with a company to sell something. Some people just sponsor a ton of stuff, while others keep it a little more authentic to stuff that they actually use or say that they use. And then there are promoted posts. And this season is the first time that people really started to talk about promoted posts.

So you'll see sponsored posts come up sometimes, and those come specifically from companies that are trying to sell you an advertisement. I haven't really been able to see how that works on the back end of Instagram, but essentially the way you'll see those, you see them a lot between stories. Whenever you're swiping on Instagram, where at the top it'll either say the company and you'll see one of your influencers that you recognize, or sometimes it actually comes from the influencer who comes through.

And those are typically brand partnerships that, you know, the the company benefits from it because it helps them market their their product and then it helps the influencer because then they can have an income. And, you know, over the last few decades there's actually been a huge shift within the marketing industry to move money that they used to do in advertisements and things like magazines and TV shows towards influencers. It's a whole new market that you now see all of these jobs around social media managers to help with brand partnerships.

Then you have promoted posts. So I actually use promoted posts. I have an addition to what I do in my day job. I have a startup. It's a tech product, and a lot of companies will use promoted posts to be able to get their posts in front of the right people. So essentially what a promoted post does is you pay. So you say, I want to spend ten dollars a day for five days and I want Instagram to either put it in front of these types of people or put it in front of people who are like my followers.

And essentially what that does is as you're swiping through your feed or through your stories, it'll show that post. Now, a lot of people will confuse that with buying followers.

But what that does is it just puts your content in front of people.

It's on you at that point to create content that's actually engaging that either makes them engage with the post or go follow you or go forward.

OK, and if I if I'm not mistaken, I've only seen one person show up in a sponsored post. I've seen it on Facebook, same person on Facebook and Instagram. That's one of his guys. And that's chasten. Is that correct, that I've seen him doing sponsored posts? I mean, promoted posts.

Yes. So he was the first contestant that we've really seen do it, or at least it's been reported. Other ones may have done it and it just didn't get out there. And again, I'm around the topic of sponsored posts and promoted posts. I, I want to make sure that isn't coming across negatively because there's nothing wrong. And doing them again, the sponsored posts. Yes. You're getting paid for it by the company. But still those companies look at your engagement numbers to see did people how many people swiped up, how many people actually use your code?

And if those if you're not getting high rates on those that they're not company's not going to come back to you. So, again, you have to have good content and you need to have followers that trust you. Same thing with the promoted posts. I don't speak on those negatively because, again, it requires you to have good content and that in itself is really difficult. Buying followers, on the flip side is something that is very much looked down upon because it's, you know, an artificial way to.

Grow your followers. Yeah, and it's not real because, I mean, I've heard all these stories about engagement versus, you know, likes versus engagement, because if somebody with a million followers puts up a poster of them at the beach or them with a puppy or something like that or. I know, I know baby stuff is huge for people, that that generates a lot of engagement. But is there a certain algorithm? I've heard different statistics over the years that you have for for a company to want to come back to you.

You need at least five to 10 percent. Of your total following. Maybe either on likes or engagement or maybe it's a separation or a combination of both, like if somebody with a million followers put something out and gets 10000 likes, something tells me that that person has a lot of Boort followers, because when you have a million people following you and you put something up and only ten thousand people like it, that's not a lot correct. Yeah, so I'm not an expert in this, and unfortunately, one of the best tools out there for figuring this out have disappeared.

There's still some good ones. So I know Influencer Hub has a really good tool where you can just go in and put in a person's user name and it will calculate that it'll put in how many followers they have on average, how many likes do they get proposed, how many comments. And then I'll do an authenticity score. There was an awesome tool called IG Audit that was actually it had to be taken down because the guy who created it was essentially sent this letter from Facebook that was like, take this down or else.

But it was this awesome tool that would actually tell you it would go and scan through a percentage of the followers, not all of them. And it would use some different algorithms to calculate how many of those were actually bot accounts. But it's also tough right now for people to buy followers. From what I'm reading online around, this type of trying to learn about this is that it's really risky to buy followers, because if you don't do if you don't buy them through a good source and Instagram catches on to the sudden growth in the authenticity of it, you could actually have your account shut down permanently or shadow banned or there's a ton of different things that could happen.

So I think a lot of people are relying on things these days like, you know, give away loops or the big one right now. Yeah. And can you explain can you explain give away Loop's to people, including myself, I'm kind of confused by it.

And again, this is one of those things I'm not trying to equate it to buying followers. Again, it's not people buying followers, but what it influencer or give loop is. And you may have seen this before and just not really know what it was called, is where an influencer will say, hey, I'm giving you away this awesome thing. And a lot of times I'll partner with a brand for these. Go follow these five people and then, you know, like this post and then you're entered to win.

So essentially what that does, it it makes people follow other accounts. And it's a win for the marketing company. It's a win for the influencer because they get all these new followers and, you know, everybody wins, but. You know, at the same time, it's just a way to to grow your followers, but at the end of the day, if you don't create good content, people will get annoyed with you and then end up on following you.

Well, that's what I that's what I was saying on a give away loop. Usually it's a, you know, some sort of prize, whatever it may be. Once you enter that and it's and you follow somebody that says, hey, follow these five accounts like my post and you are entered into our next giveaway and then that giveaway happens.

You don't win, wouldn't you just go back and be like, all right, well, man, following those five posts or those five accounts now, there's there's actually an influencer in the Dallas area, actually, who does this really well. So I follow this other forum called Blog Snark, where they they talk about some of this stuff sometimes. And I remember them talking about how this influencer named Danny Austin at the beginning of the pandemic. She only had four hundred thousand followers.

I say only because she just hit one million followers just over the course of the pandemic. And she's been a blogger for years, like since college, from what I read.

So that's two that's two and a half times. And basically the last eight months, she's yeah. She's multiplied her follower account by two and a half times, in which at the same time, I looked at her page, it looks like she just had a baby.

So normally mommy accounts of people who just have a baby. They also get a ton of followers from other moms who are trying to go through such a difficult time. Yeah, I'm having a baby and everything around that. Best products and feedback on her like tips and tricks. But she does tons of loop giveaways. And yeah, there's there's a whole culture around analyzing this stuff for influencers outside of The Bachelor, which can be really interesting to, you know, just rabbit hole down.

But those loop giveaways have become really popular to grow your followers. But at the same time, just like sponsored posts and just like promoted posts, you have to get people to continue to follow you by creating good content, which is very difficult.

Yeah, no, it is definitely not easy. I mean, there are few accounts out there that I follow that I think produce great content and some that don't. Getting back to your in terms of what you do, this is a little fun thing that I wanted to compare and contrast.

And that's since we're basically I mean, we're down to the final three of the season. But we just had the final four on Monday.

So I want to compare tazers, final four guys, Instagram following versus our last season of The Bachelorette, which was Hannah Brown. Even though we can't compare time frames because Hannah's aired in the normal noncommitted time frame of The Bachelorette, which is May through July. But.

What were Hannah Brown's for her for her final four, we know Jed Tyler, Peter and Luke Parker, and then we've got Taylor's final four guys of Brendan, Zac, Ben and Ivan.

How are how are these guys tases guys trending versus Hannah Browns guys?

Yeah, so interesting question. And I know we talked about this beforehand, so I'm actually going to have a post for this tomorrow before your podcast goes up, because it's really interesting to look at and there's a lot of variables in this question that also go over. But in short, Taylor's men are absolutely flopping compared to Hannah's men. And I'm including. All of Hannah's final four, so as a recap, Hannah's Final Four were Jed, Luke Parker, Peter and Tyler C.

And if you look at Tasha's Final Four. There's only one, and it's Ben who just passed the lowest from Hanna's season, Luke Parker.

And no one else has passed for Luke Parker was at this point in the season, and that's what we got to be clear on. We're talking about the point in the season that we're at. You know, Final Four was this past Monday. It was we're talking about you're talking about Hannah Brown's Final Fours numbers at the time of the Final Four episode, which would have been around July of twenty nineteen. We're not talking about Jed Tyler, Peter and Luke Parker's numbers right now.

We're not comparing apples to oranges. We're comparing apples to apples here.

And those guys way ahead of is for men, you're saying? Yes.

I mean, she's the only guy who just passed. One of them was Ben, but nobody's even getting to the point of passing Jed. OK, so so what are the numbers?

What are the numbers right now? I know. I know Ben is leading for all of these guys. And we're talking about our final four. He's at, what, 290, almost 300 thousand followers right now?

Yes, there's a ton of growth overnight. Ben just hit 300000 today. OK, and at this point had pull it up to figure out the exact point. I'll figure out this number for tomorrow, but. Luppi was essentially at Kashf, was this? He was at where Brendan was so around one hundred ninety nine thousand followers. So Brendan hasn't even passed where he was, so he was probably just over two hundred thousand at this point. OK.

And and, you know, we talk about Jed and Tyler, Tyler, Cameron. It's almost like we can't include him because he's such an anomaly. I mean, because what we're Tyler Cameron's numbers at Final Four last year, July of 2019, where was he at?

He was at 900000 and he just today is at three right now and yeah, and he finished fourth like her dad is the pilot, though, like Peter was already in the 500 thousands and Lupi.

OK, here we go. I got the number. Now, the key is that, you know, 200000.

But he had to know he had a negative edit. Damn, he was. Yeah, he was the villain.

So of course it was for the Bulls, for Jed was in the 300000, so like upper 300000. So it also it might be the time of the year. It might be people not engaging because I don't look I actually don't look at the weekly ratings for the show. Yeah. It might be people are just not engaging. And it's tough because it is airing at a different part of the year.

We are in the holiday season. The ratings aren't as as good as they have been in years past flirtation season. That's just factually that's just factual information. That is correct. Again, that's not me hating on Tatia. Just go look at the numbers and compare it to previous bachelorette seasons. However, to play devil's advocate there, Taisha season is also airing at a time when The Bachelorette has never aired October through December. So it's tough to say what's outweighing the other.

You know, we just don't know.

Yeah, you'd have to you'd have to literally you'd have to manually interview or, you know, take surveys of everybody and ask, why aren't you engaging? It's just obviously it's just not going to happen. But yeah, I mean, Tyler came being at 900000 followers in the final four is ridiculous. I mean, and second place would have been Peter, what was Peter out at Final Four, Evana season over five hundred thousand five hundred.

Yeah, and you've got one guy barely scraping 300000 of his men and the other ones aren't even at two. So it's like, wow, it's just like, yeah, I don't know.

I don't know if that's a a timing thing. I don't know if that's a disinterest thing.

I don't think it's just been. And Brendan, I mean, once you expand it out and look at Ivan and sexy, I mean neither of them have even broken 90000 yet.

Yeah. See that's that to me. That to me screams it might be the time frame of when this is airing.

I just and granted that the numbers are down, the ratings are down for this season, but to not even be in one hundred thousand and we're the finale is next week, you know, usually. Now here's the other thing that I wanted to ask, and it kind of goes hand in hand with this.

I also think I mean, maybe Hannas wasn't a good example because those guys did break in a lot of followers.

But I tend to think that women on Instagram people tend to follow the women contestants of the show more than the men. Right.

Like of the top 20 people in all of Bachelor Nation, if you ranked. Largest following, the smallest volume would just go to the top 20. How many of them are women? 70 percent. So it's 14 of them, 14? Okay, yeah, that's that's the point I was trying to make, is that men, I don't think are very well followed because I don't think men do a lot of giveaways and loop giveaways.

And I think there's also as a woman myself, you know, I don't follow a ton of people from the show. I'm sure that surprises some people. I actually really care about the contestants after their season ends to.

But there whenever I see certain people on the show with a good fashion sense or, you know, who does their makeup well or who does their hair in a way that I want to do my hair, I'm more inclined to follow them. Yeah. Whereas for men, they don't have a ton of room to grow and and gain what is mostly women demographics from the show. Most people just follow them, either because they're attracted to them. I'm assuming I'm also speaking out of my own experience of all people who I think are attractive or if I'm interested, to see what happens to them after the show.

So Tylor see I was so engaged after his season ended because I wanted to see if him and Hannah would hook up and they did. Yeah. So it was really interesting to be able to see that and all of that. And you saw it in their follower accounts. I mean Tyler just he performed so well on this show. So it's looking at this type of stuff and being able to compare between seasons is something I'm actually hoping to start doing for that season.

So I'm actually planning to launch in the next week is a new way to kind of do like a PF style if anybody has either. Listen to your podcast with Mike Ritter, who was on the show, who works for PAF or cares about football. It's actually a like they do a rating system where they'll compare players and in different positions to other players and how they're performing and rate them on multiple scales. Now that I'll have been doing this, this will be my third year.

I can now have three seasons so I can actually make a trend and start rating them on how they're performing based on other people who went home at certain points or had certain amounts of screen time.

Yeah, I mean, that's I mean, that's just another level of this stuff that I think people would enjoy. You know, I, I you and I have talked about it. I've talked about BATCHELLER clues, that podcast, that Instagram account they're going to be on again in a couple of weeks on this podcast to talk about the season and to preview Matt season. But. The way they look at the show as more of a game aspect and now you're thinking of doing some sort of statistics to show people a rating system of who which players are the best.

I think it's fascinating. And I think certainly you and bachelors can hook up and start putting your minds together and coming up with stuff. And, you know, you mentioned Matt season and you're going to have stuff out again. And this goes for a lot of seasons, because I've started to do this in terms of when I first find out about contestants on the show before ABC releases that dump of everybody that's, you know, possibly going to be on the season that they're doing, they've done for like the last five or six seasons where it's like, hey, here's the potential cast for Hannah Brown or Matt James and whatever.

And we get more people that end up being on the show. And it's usually about three days before filming. Clearly, there's always people that I already have and I've already written down their follower count just to keep track because I'm always interested. But just kind of eyeballing Matt right now and I'm looking at some of the numbers. You know, it's just it's kind of just fascinating to me that a lot of these contestants, pretty much 90 to 95 percent of them, when they are first named a contestant on the show, the only people that are following them are like, you know, friends and family.

I mean, some of these people. You know, one of the girls, that's who here's going to be a perfect example, Abigail, the the the woman who has a cochlear implant who get you gets the first impression rose on mat season. When I first wrote her stuff down, she had eight hundred and eighty seven followers, I guarantee, come mid-March when this finale airs. And I don't know how long she last, but I know she lasts pretty long.

I don't know the exact time she goes home. But for someone to go from eight hundred and eighty seven followers, which is probably just, you know, people who went to college with some high school people, she is going to have hundreds of thousands of followers come March. We all know it. And it's just it's a fascinating thing to look at. But just remember, on October 7th, when Abigail was announced as a contestant on the show, she had eight hundred eighty seven followers go check back in March of where she's at.

And it's it's kind of crazy because she can get whatever she does for work. She can quit.

And if she wants if she wanted to, I don't know if she's going to, but just kind of looking over in the numbers.

I think maybe five or six girls, five or six women of that had over had over 10000 maybe, right? Yeah.

So from the original cast, I actually have some data on this that I was prepping for a post of the last, I guess, five seasons, if you include Matt. Yeah, Matt. Season of the original cast. Ten of them had over 10000 followers. But now that the actual cast have been released, it's down to six, six of the thirty one sixth of the earth, the six of the 32.

You're saying, yes, I have over 10000 followers. But if you look at the average of all the other contestants and how many they had when they were first announced. So back in October, not not right now. In December, yeah, the average was 15000 followers. If you look back at previous seasons, most of them are under ten thousand followers on average, with the exception of Peter's season, Peter was the only season that had more contestants with over 10000 followers than any other season.

See, I'm looking at some of these numbers and OK, these are numbers that I think that I wrote down. This was October 7th. This is when they first became public to the rest of us.

Caleb Anderson had 23000, Catalina Morales, on which she's not well aware she might be on call.

She had 23000, but her fan account had thirty eight thousand.

That's right. She has a fan account, Brittany Galvin at twenty point eight. But she's she's one that Iraq. She's technically not even on the cast yet, but she does arrive five episodes in Kit Keenan.

Obviously, she had forty thousand. She was the number one girl heading into this season in terms of followers already built in. Maggie had ten thousand. And Katie who?

Oh, Katie, the ticktock girl. She had eighteen point two and CENI, if I'm pronouncing her name right, she had eleven thousand. So yeah. But she's yeah it's on. It was, it was a night one girl so.

Yeah. I mean that's, it's weird. So you're saying the thirty, the average of the thirty two thousand is fifteen. Of the 30 to 35 percent, yeah, really, that must I mean, maybe it's Kitz numbers that are bringing them all up because that seems like a lot because I'm looking at some of the other ones. You know, Abigail 887, Alanah 2400, Alysha 70, 900, Amber 6500 and a 60 100. How do you get to 50?

How do you get to an average of 15? When I just I just read off five women and none of them had more than eight. I don't know.

And Colton was actually the lowest of the most the three most recent bachelor seasons in terms of followers. His average was only just under 9000. We had a few people on there like Caitlyn that had a huge following already because of her pageant world. But most of them were actually pretty low. But women definitely they have much they have more followers than than the men when they come on the show for sure. And that's why I always try to compare to previous seasons of the same type.

So bachelor to bachelor, rather than comparing Maddie to Tyler C while they were both massive and growth, if you look at the rest of the season, it's very different.

Yeah. And I just you know, I talk about the fact that this has an average. The women on that season have an average of 15000 right now. And, you know, the other season was an average, like you said, Kolten, season was an average of 9000. In the end, it really doesn't matter because come March, they're all going to be in the hundreds of thousands, at least the top the top women of that season are all going to be well over 100, 200, 300.

Some might even be in the four or five hundred thousand range. We just that's just the way the show works. The biggest example I always remember was Kasey on Kolten season. I remember when I pulled her at the time that I found out that Kasey was a contestant on Kolten Season. I remember looking at her follower account and it was less than 10000. And now she's at, what, one point eight? And it's just it's just a crazy and Kasey has done nothing since the show in terms of she hasn't done any.

She appeared on the Goat episode this past summer for five minutes. But she's not somebody that at least from what I've seen and I do follow her, hasn't done a lot of bachelor nation related stuff because she's been going to school to get her degree, but to go from less than ten thousand to one point eight million and basically three months that your show is airing, that's that's such a life change and a life shock, because now you almost have to.

There is no one can tell me any differently, there is a pressure to put out interesting content because you have these people that are like, wow, one point eight million people now care about what the hell I do on my Instagram just because I was on this silly dating show. I kind of have to do stuff to keep them engaged, entertained. I don't know, easy.

It's it's tough for them to I mean, I know from my own experience through my startup Instagram and Twitter profiles and then also now this bachelor data Instagram profile, I, I started with zero followers and I had every single post to test and tweak to see, OK, what response better what type of background, what type of aesthetics for the page and how does it look. Obviously I look at that data because I enjoy data, but it I had no following to start learning that.

And you know, my startup, I've been doing that for over a year and a half at this point and there's not a lot of pressure coming into it to, you know, have amazing content at the beginning. And then some of these people like Mattey last season, they just get thrusted into these hundreds of thousands of followers where they just suddenly have to become experts in what they're producing on social media. So I definitely I applaud the ones that can maintain the follower accounts and keep their people engaged and and create engaging content.

You know, we're seeing Hanegbi be right now experiencing or experimenting with her with her YouTube page and seeing what converts there and what maintains her followers. I'm sure that this is something that she has to analyze or she has a social media manager that helps her with it. But it's not easy and they're definitely thrusted into having to learn this all very quickly.

Yeah. And it just can't be easy. I know there's a lot of pressures to keep your engagement up, to keep your followers up, because if you lose followers, that's just like losing money, essentially because we know that there are certain benchmarks. If you have 500000 followers and you do a post, you're supposed to get X amount of likes and X amount of engagement for that advertiser to want to come back and use you again. Or if you're giving out a code, I don't know what the breakdown is of how many people they want to buy stuff.

If you link to something, I don't know what it is. I think it's probably different for each product.

But but just the amount that these people gain, especially, like we said, the women, because Instagram is more of a female app, I would say it's geared towards women. Like you said, like you said yourself, as a woman, you're more interested in the clothes that guy goes, that the women are wearing, the makeup, the hairstyles. Guys don't care about that stuff to find that online. I've never and look, you know, I'm also forty five years old, so maybe I'm not the demographic, but I'm never going on Instagram even when I come across guys in the franchise or even other men and seeing what they're wearing in their.

Post and being like, man, that's a cool shirt, I want that, like, that's just I don't know, I just I think I'm in the majority here of guys that don't look at Instagram for wardrobe help.

I don't know. Maybe that's just me. And I wouldn't have to worry about makeup. We don't have to worry about hairstyles. I'm certainly not looking at hairstyles on on Instagram and being like, oh, how does he do his hair like? But I know that women do.

You know, I think that also depends to on like what your industry is that you're trying to do on Instagram. So if you have, you know, somebody who is a lifestyle figure, how to how to explain herself lifestyle. She. Right. Was this lifestyle beauty industry. Yeah. On Instagram, that's a super oversaturated market. But, you know, men who sell clothes or trying to promote like good clothing styles, well, that's not a massive industry.

It's this really small market that if you have really high engagement, it actually can you don't have to have hundreds of thousands of followers.

So there's a few people that I follow, you know, my personal side that have actually quit their jobs with under a hundred thousand followers just because they're in such a small market that's performing really well. But I think most people that come on to this show, they're choosing a very oversaturated market today. There's a lot of pressure around it against, you know, the moms out there that perform better in that type of industry that have that special thing that helps draw in followers.

It's definitely interesting to see how people pivot. You know, there's some people who go more towards, you know, skin care, which is a really big industry, some that go into like Crystal that go into fitness, that perform really well. Yeah. You know, I have my own friends that I actually, you know, chat with underscore that are like, hey, I actually got crystals, you know, workout routine. It's actually really good.

So it's it's performing well and it's the smaller market, but it isn't so oversaturated.

Yeah, that's the tough part. Like you said, there is so much oversaturation because the main things that the women do from this show, once they get off and they go on Instagram and start pitching product or even starting podcasts or, you know, what products they're going to pitch, it's mostly centered around either hair or clothing or makeup or fitness. I'd say those are probably the four. So it's like, well, how are you differentiating differentiating yourself from, you know, someone like crystal crystals done very well for herself in the fitness world post show.

So if someone else comes off of, you know, Matt Jameses and it's like, I want to do a fitness Instagram and I'm going to put them, I'm going to put workouts on my Instagram post and in my feeds, it's just like, OK, but there's so many others out there, like what makes you different? And I don't think a lot of these people think ahead of to what really does make them different.

Why am I going to look at your makeup tutorial over somebody else's? Why am I going to look at your hair tutorial over someone else's? It's just I guess it's just a matter of personal preference, I guess. But it's not easy to do to keep up with to come up with something that has original content, because we all know a lot of these contestants are basically doing the same things when they get off. And it's hair, it's makeup, it's fitness or it's clothes.

Muslimism one.

I mean, there's but there's other ones, too. I mean, like podcast's, if you look at BECC from our season, she's doing exceptionally well on her podcast and it has amazing ratings. And she's also starting to tap into some other industry, like some other areas where she's starting to have, you know, tough conversations, which can scare a lot of contestants around getting political. But she isn't scared of that. And it is an actual like a powerful market.

There were people will go to that. I know I'm one of them. I listen to chatty broads and it's you know, it's an awesome podcast. And I keep going back to it because they're having awesome conversations. So I think those bigger categories you can say, like, OK, they have a podcast. But as we're seeing with Click Bait with Tatia and Joe's podcast, I just because you're in the spotlight and you have a podcast from the show doesn't mean that it's necessarily going to perform well.

Yeah. And, you know, you bring up click bait, you bring up the one thing. And the other thing I forgot coming out of the show that women start to do is food stuff. And that's kind of where Hannah and has pivoted, which is that's been out of left field. Like everything Hannah and does now is centered around cooking and food and and I mean, good for her. I just don't think anybody saw that coming because everyone was like, oh, my God, she's going to be down in paradise.

She's going to be a model. I mean, she has done some modeling stuff, but the amount of cooking stuff that Hannah and has done, it seems like that's what she wants. That's the niche market that she's going out. Or is yeah, I'm going to do recipes and I'm going to cook and people are going to follow me and watch me and buy stuff, and I think a lot of people will laugh. I mean, I know I chuckled when you said her name, because I think back to the post about her throwing leaves in the air and bringing olives into her kitchen.

But it's performing well, like it's if you like, I laugh about this because it's not my my area. It's I am not interested in this, but it's performing well. And she's found an area that she's going to make money off of. And we can laugh all that we want. But the contestants end up laughing their way to the bank. So that's why I like to analyze it, as I like to try to figure out, you know, what works well for what people and why.

And I guess it's almost like you just have to test it out. I mean, I don't know why Hannah and thought that that was going to work for her, but it is seemingly working for her, the cooking stuff.

I just don't think any of us saw that when Peter Season was rolling and even after the season, we just figured she was going to be an Instagram model. And she has done some modeling stuff for sure. But I mean, I guess we just didn't know her well enough to know that she was really going to go the cooking route.

But, yeah, I mean, it's fascinating what these people get into afterwards and how much, you know, they they talk about.

I mean I mean, I'm already looking at some of Matt's women and all the stuff that they're already talking about promoting. I've started to follow a lot more of them than I have in past seasons because I usually don't follow them, because people just usually notify me to, hey, did you see when so-and-so did this? I was like, OK, I'll look. But now I'm just following them so I can know. And then once Matt Seasons ends, I'm sure I'm going to unfollow them.

But I'm already seeing stuff two, three weeks out before the first episode airs. Some women trying to get out ahead of things. I'm already pitching stuff that they're wearing. It's it's a farce. This social media has absolutely one hundred, 100 percent change the fabric of the show. It's not even a question anymore. Yeah, no, it's it's it's something where I'm it's good and bad, but, yeah, I mean, I think with with your stuff and your data, is it data or data?

Does is really I mean, do we really know, is it? It does depend on the part of the country you're from because I think I've what have I always said?

I've said I've said data. Yeah. Batcheller data at best. The data. You say data.

OK, I do say data, but I know I am embarrassed to say it. Well, now I'm not embarrassed to say this because this is a learning journey, but actually learning that data is plural and the singular version of it is actually data.

I'm probably pronouncing it wrong because I haven't I've literally never heard anybody actually say the word, but data is actually plural. Oh, God, I had no idea, and that would be very interesting and what do I say? Data, data? I don't know. I say, well, now you have the bias because of what I said.

Yeah, no, no. I think now I think I was wrong. The data. Yeah, I said data. But I think I was wrong when I said that, I think I've always said data, I don't even I don't know.

Anyway, you are at BATCHELLER data data on on Instagram. Check her out. Susanna, thank you so much for coming on. This was a lot of fun. I'm glad we had you on. I'm going to be referring to you a lot when talking about followers and people's growth rates and stuff like that screentime. I think it's all fascinating stuff. So anybody out there check it out, go follow her BATCHELLER data on Instagram. I just said data right before it's data.

So, Susanna, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me.

Thank you so much to Susanna for that, if you're not following BATCHELLER data, that's her data go on Instagram right now and follow it. It's so much. I mean. There's going to be so much stuff where, you know, you just kill time and you're looking at your phone or whatever, just start scrolling through all of her old posts. You will be fascinated by the amount of work she puts into it and she's doing it for free. Hopefully she gets you know, she builds up in a following.

She can start making some money off that thing. But, yeah, I'm going to refer to it a lot during the course of podcasts and or tweets and or my column, just because it's loaded with information that the average fan, when you watch on Monday night, you're not taking in. You're not probably comprehending or even. Wondering if that's even a thing that you should be thinking about. She really breaks it down for you and I hope you enjoyed that.

So thanks to Zanda for coming on. Thank you all for listening. I appreciate it for coming back to this podcast. And we'll be back next week. Christmas Eve, gosh, I should probably release it Wednesday night, right, the twenty third, I don't even know who it is yet, trying to get somebody on that I know a few of you have asked for. Again, I will try and get them on and hopefully they will. And then I think in two weeks we're going to have BATCHELLER clues back on where we're set to roll with them in two weeks.

I just need to find somebody next week. Maybe I'll do another email voice voicemails again if I can't find somebody because it is going to be Christmas week.

So anyway, thank you so much for listening. Thank to thank you to Susanna from BATCHELLER data to come on for coming on. I appreciate it and thank you all for listening. Please write, subscribe and review an Apple podcast. Give it a five star, you don't have to, but you'll be my best friend. Thank you all for listening. I appreciate it. We'll talk to you next week.