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[00:00:00]

Hey, everyone, it's Jackie Relative Unknown as a podcast which explores the troubling stories from our past that we can't escape, investigative journalist Delia Dombra is doing the same thing in the new season of her podcast, Counterclockwise. Thirty years ago, police closed a murder investigation of Stacy Stanton, convicting a man named Clifton Spencer in a matter of hours and with zero evidence. But all these years later, Delia is setting out to uncover whether he was wrongfully convicted purely based on racial bias.

[00:00:32]

Listen to season two right now by searching counterclockwise. Wherever you get your podcasts and check back for new episodes on Thursdays. 13 originals. So when I was 16, my mother set my brother, my sister and myself down and said that she had some news my father had gotten out of prison.

[00:01:03]

And she handed us each a card. We open the card and each of us had a five dollar bill in the card and we each had a little note written in their mindset, and I quote, because I remember exactly what he wrote. My sweetheart, there is not a day that goes by that I do not wake up with your name on my lips. And that's all I remember, but I just remember that first part that he wrote. I thought, what a sweet thing to say with fucking five dollars, what I can do with five dollars, I think movies at the time were four seventy five.

[00:01:44]

So I think I was able to go to a movie, but five dollars for eight years, huh. I went through a lot of emotions, and so I know he was out of prison, we didn't know where he was, he said he had sent us some pictures. And I was trying to figure out where those pictures were from, and they looked like they were from upstate New York or someplace up in the New England states. My brother sent me a letter saying that he wanted to go live with them and my father never answered and that, like, destroyed my brother.

[00:02:21]

But he never came back to Montana. My mother says she saw him once in Costco parking lot, but he never came back to Montana. He just started a new life for himself without us kids.

[00:02:37]

I remember as a kid the day he got out, I was a freshman in high school. This is my younger sister, Jamie.

[00:02:47]

I ran to my room, I read the letter, and I was so excited and I pulled out some stationery. And I remember I started writing him back a letter. And I remember I put like I think I started with, like kindergarten first grade. Tell them, like my teacher's name, who my best friend was, everything I did. And I remember I got to I think it was about seventh or eighth grade. And I sure were thinking, you know, why do I have to tell them all this?

[00:03:11]

He's my dad. He should know all of this. And I just crumpled up all the papers and threw away. You know, I thought of it over the years, if he tried to contact me, wanted to see me. I just didn't really have any desire to.

[00:03:28]

I think he was a bad person. And not necessarily because he was a biker, but, you know, once I had kids, my family's always come first, you know, my grandparents, my siblings, my mother. And then, you know, once I started having kids and my husband, they've always been my priority. And that's just how I choose to live my life.

[00:03:49]

I think maybe if he would have tried to keep in contact with us as a kid, things might have been different, you know, I mean, he was my family. He was my father. I probably could have forgiven him for everything that happened. But he left. He didn't want to be part of it. The fact that my father is gone, I never knew him really doesn't bring a tear to my eye. What does that say about me?

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And, you know, I really kind of struggled with that a lot.

[00:04:17]

But I kind of finally, you know, I had the epiphany is like it's not what it says about me, it's really what it says about him. You know, he just he wasn't a good person, I don't think it was a good person all the way to the end, I think that he thought that he could make a better life for himself and that he could tell the story and sell a book and that that would change his life.

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I think he was just tired of the hustle.

[00:04:44]

And I think that all this stuff is kind of evidence of that.

[00:04:47]

He still held on to it. He didn't want to get rid of it. He's you know, I puts a little note with his pages, you know, I take off these pages and throw them down in disgust, but yet he's held on to them all these years. Really, they disgusted you? Why didn't you throw them away and burn them? Why do you have all these newspaper articles of every Hells Angels story?

[00:05:06]

I could respect the fact that you wanted to be in a brotherhood and be a part of that.

[00:05:10]

But the fact that, you know, that's what you said you wanted to do and you turned on all of that and you said because you wanted to be a family man and you were tired of all the killing. But yet all I see from this Trocha stuff is one picture of me, but hundreds of letters to all these people trying to make a buck off of your story.

[00:05:30]

But Jackie had a lot of questions and there's a lot of holes to be filled in, Jackie needs this. This is what she needs to do. She wants to fill in these holes. But I just I had no desire to be a part of his life and to know him. And even now, I don't everything that he went through his whole life and stuff, I just think I think it was pathetic and I think it was sad. What good's a man?

[00:06:03]

Who's lost is so. You can take a stand, when is flames gonna go?

[00:06:20]

To fend off the enemy, say, the jubilee, with all the fire, we can breathe. I'm Jackie Taylor, and this is relative unknown. When I was younger and suffering the abuse from my mother, I often fantasized about my auntie coming in rescuing me because she was so full of love and she just passed away a couple of weeks ago.

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So it's it's it's kind of been a struggle. But she was just so full of love.

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And I actually tracked her down right after he got out of prison because I was 16 years old and I had been sporadically talking to her ever since, and then I wanted to go see her in 2006.

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I hadn't seen my aunt since I was six or seven years old when my family stayed on her houseboat. I wanted to surprise her, so I flew to Louisiana, my Uncle Harry picked me up and then took me to their farm and camped, here's Uncle Harry. When you walked in the door, my wife said, Who are you surprised? She thought I had brought my girlfriend home because she had, say, Jackie years, you know, since Jackie was a little girl.

[00:07:57]

But we lost all contact with where they were treated with this program. We did a word. They were there. So once you all cleared the door. But I said, who the hell are you?

[00:08:09]

She called ITCZ up Jackie. And I'll explain to my wife, you know, what they. And so the day know just that members together get our start talking to ask the question what where your billion and what happened to your daughter witnessed programming. But Jackassery Turner, I can understand and wanting to know about her daddy, the piece of the puzzle that's been missing for years. I wanted to see my auntie and my uncle, yes, but I wanted to kind of go down there and killed my father.

[00:08:48]

I wanted to shoot him and I just wanted to find out where he was. Most people, you know, lay awake at night dreaming about if they won the lottery, what are they going to buy? I dreamt about how I was going to kill my father. And the night that I arrived, I think they might have seen it in my face. Because they sat me down that night and said, we think that you should go see your daddy, and I thought, Yeah, oh, I can see my daddy all right.

[00:09:15]

Yeah, yeah.

[00:09:16]

I think I should to. Well, I asked Jack. I said, I know where your dad is at. Your Abati. I'm not, you know, pushing is up to you. You know, she went through a lot of stuff. And she decided she was the president the last time I'd seen Butch Crouch was 1982 when I was eight years old, getting my hair.

[00:09:45]

Can I tell you the name of your victim? You remember? Sure. Here you go.

[00:10:09]

Twenty four years have passed. And now I was about to meet Paul Dohm for the first time. They didn't realize how close it was, it was right over the border. It was an hour and a half away from each other. So my aunt, my uncle and I drove across the border an hour and a half away to go see my father. She kept telling me, it's OK, baby, I'm here. I'm here for you the whole time.

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Don't worry. Don't worry. We're not leaving you. If anything gets weird, we just go. We'll just go. You're with us. Don't worry. So we get there. He came out, then I realized what she wanted me to see. He was just a crippled old man living out in the middle of freakin nowhere.

[00:11:01]

And that's what she said, si, si, maybe he just a cripple man now, he don't mean no harm trying to live a good life here.

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She knew that I just needed to see him. You know, I had this vision of him just being the biker that's just tearing shit up, but when he opened that door and he walked out on that porch, he had a cane and had a hard time walking. He had no teeth. She told me that out of all of my children, you're the only one who's come to see me. Everything that I felt, all the hate, everything.

[00:11:36]

It just went away because, oh, my God, there's my daddy. Auntie and uncle wandered off to give us some space, and then we decided we were going to stay and barbecue. We just kind of shot the shit a little bit, and I think he poured me some sweet tea. We talked a little bit and he kept saying, Wow, I can't believe your hair.

[00:11:59]

I wanted to ask why he never got a hold of us, and I did tell him that we never moved, we had the same phone number that my mother still has the same phone number that she got in 1982 when we first got our house. Our phone numbers never changed. I told him that he was like, Really? I remember telling him a little bit that I was kind of upset, but it didn't matter that much, I was sitting with my dad and he was happy to see me and I was just happy to.

[00:12:34]

There. If that makes any sense, I don't know, but it did it just it just all went away. I mean, just seeing him like that, I can't explain it. And I didn't expect it because I thought for sure I was going to kill him that day. Then auntie and uncle asked if I was OK with writing up to the grocery store with him in his car, just me and him. So we went to the store together and.

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It was just it was a little awkward, but I'll never forget when we got to the grocery store because he wrote a check and they asked him for his driver's license and it was a driver's license from like the day he got out of prison and the lady was giggling and she's like, yeah, what is this?

[00:13:22]

You 20 years ago? And he got really, really nervous and was looking at the ground and kind of kicking at his feet. And I just thought, wow, she has no idea why that driver's license is 20 years old. You know, and just seeing what he went through in the grocery store, just trying to write a check, he's still struggling every day, you know, he's still he's just hiding. After seeing him that day, we started corresponding we exchanged emails and things, and I'd wake up in the morning to my daddy, send me an email.

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I had read his email, and then I quickly sent him an email before I had to go to work. And then soon as I got off, you know, I was taking my computer to see if Daddy sent me an email and it was just cool.

[00:14:04]

We are rekindling that father daughter thing. Hey, sweetie, yes, I'm going to keep coming at you with the truth, mainly because you don't know me at all, is that handle a snitch? I swear. And if that was what it took to save some lives and get the truth out among the membership and so be it, but don't picture me as some kind of sniveling junkie in the corner hiding. I have a lot of pride in what I tried to accomplish with the truth.

[00:14:33]

I blame myself for the failure of all I tried to do. And if there is one thing that every member who sat in those courtrooms listening to me can say is that I never lied.

[00:14:43]

Never.

[00:14:47]

Over the next few years, I got a handful of messages from the Child of Wind, which was my dad's name on email. That last one was from 2012, the same year he sent this letter to the Social Security Administration attempting to get disability. The stab wounds he'd suffered back in 1971 during the Polish Women's Hall fight had caught up with them. He was in constant pain and could hardly walk. To whom it may concern? My name is Paul Allen Dome, I'm 70 years old and my body is in need of attention badly.

[00:15:23]

Kidneys, liver and neuropathy in my legs has left me in pretty bad shape up to this point. I've been able to survive due to my wife's generosity and her income.

[00:15:33]

My former name was Clarence Addae Crouch, and I believe my own Social Security number was five to zero. One eight is about all I can remember of such. If this will assist you in any way, as you'll see, I have very little work records, but hopefully in many ways I made up for such and all my efforts and numerous courtrooms across the country. Please, if this could be somewhat rushed or hurried along, I would be more than appreciative due to my condition and need to seek medical attention and care.

[00:16:06]

Thanking you in advance, Paul Dohm, Lake of the Pines, Texas. What I learned about my father was that he was going through a lot of physical pain. He was having a lot of problems getting disability, getting Social Security, getting any help from the government like they promised him so long ago. This just got worse and worse over the years to where he could barely walk. He could not afford any of the surgeries or medications that his doctors had suggested.

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And I felt his pain and I felt his frustration at the fact that nobody was helping him while waiting for a response from Social Security.

[00:16:54]

He sent this letter to the U.S. Marshals. Dear sir, during my WITSEC involvement, I was informed many times that should I ever request my medical records and all other paperwork taken from my security in the name Clarence Addie Crouch, they would be returned upon request. I'm requesting that all documents be returned to me, including my children's birth records and such, which was also claimed by WITSEC in 1982. My urgency at this point is because I only have a short time to appeal a denial by Social Security.

[00:17:26]

So I need those medical records gathered up by WITSEC, along with the many doctor's records from 1990 to 1995, paid for by the Marshals Service. As you can see, my security was broken in my attempt to obtain my disability from Social Security. People might think, well, who would care about somebody that had done all of the heinous acts that he had done in the 60s, 70s and 80s, but ultimately the US government made him a promise that they would help him and take care of him.

[00:18:01]

He was not receiving any kind of assistance, so regardless of whether he was a monster or not, the Department of Justice and the US Marshals and the ATF made him a promise that they did not fulfill in the end. It's easy to take your identity for granted, and it's easy to forget how one little piece of paper, a birth certificate, makes all the difference in the world. When I was put into the witness protection program, my birth certificate was scrubbed and I was never issued a new one.

[00:18:38]

I had difficulty getting into elementary school in Montana then with joining the Girl Scouts and signing up for dance and sports.

[00:18:46]

Then there were the issues proving who I was when I was placed in foster care. Then I couldn't get a driver's license. And when I couldn't get a passport, I eventually had to travel to Seattle to a U.S. Marshal's office there to get one. When I finally clean myself up and got my life together, I got my GED. Then the college admissions board didn't believe I was who I said I was. After that, I couldn't get my marriage license.

[00:19:14]

Each and every single one of these times, I had to have someone vouch for me and I had to plead my case in each of those times, I had to out myself and tell these people that I was in the witness protection program.

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Then one day I got a letter in the mail which stated that my children's medical coverage had been denied.

[00:19:35]

I wasn't able to provide a birth certificate, so there was no proof that I was a citizen of the United States. Having grown up in WITSEC, I was used to these things happening to me, but now they were happening to my children.

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That was my breaking point and I went to the press. In 2010, the Billings Gazette published an article about me, and that's when things began to change. That's when I learned that getting the word out was the only way that the DOJ and the marshals would listen. And since then, I've been contacted by several people who have gone through exactly what I have. And my advice every time is to talk loud enough so that the government listens. My father could have used that advice.

[00:20:25]

In March of 2012, he received a denial for disability from the Social Security Administration because he couldn't provide enough personal information. The last correspondence I found relating to my father's health was a Freedom of Information Act request that he filed in March of 2013, just three and a half months before his death. He was asking for his medical records from before he entered witness protection. There was no response. A bank statement in the trunk from a few months earlier showed that he had 50 dollars and seventy one cents in his account with no disability or insurance and no money to cover any medical costs.

[00:21:07]

He self medicated like he always had. This handwritten letter from my father's wife in Texas was at the bottom of the trunk. Dear Paul, today is the beginning of a new person you see in me. I see what these empty bottles and the trailer loads of empty bottles every month has done to you, now you have to decide if this is more important to you than I am. One of us has got to go and it's up to you which one you choose.

[00:21:41]

I can't see this keep going on any longer for me. Talking to you doesn't solve anything, your drinking is killing both of us, and I do not intend to continue being a victim. The problem keeps getting bigger and bigger, and it has to stop either for you or for me is pitiful when everything we've worked for is measured in empty bottles. Vivian. Marion County, to be advised, we have a structure fire behind one of Jackson's system seven twenty nine.

[00:22:29]

How my father chose to perform his last act of life. Was horrible, he killed his wife, his stepson and himself. He shot them both. One was shot twice. So that would mean that they didn't die right away, so he had to shoot them again. The bodies were left to rot in the house for three days and he holed up in the house with them. And when they started to smell, he let his dogs out and he set the house on fire.

[00:23:07]

And I think that that was probably premeditated. It was a complete pussy act. There were so many millions of options, I just wonder why didn't he call me, why didn't he tell me I was his only child that reconciled with him and that talked to him? He once bragged about having over 13 children. I was the only one that talked to him during that time period, and he knew that he could always call me. And I would have helped him through the situation.

[00:23:46]

So I'm very torn in my emotions, I'm mad still that he did that there's so many other things that he could have done instead. But I feel sorry for that fucked up little boy that grew up to be a man who was the monster and the horrible, horrible, disgusting human being that he was. When money's tight, investing in yourself may not be top of mind, but mental health is a necessity, not a luxury. And guess what?

[00:24:22]

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[00:25:22]

That's unknown and talks Face.com. OK, I just need to get you to sign this record the way we released it to you or your water. You're going to have a service this afternoon. Yeah, we're going to scatter his ashes or keep them or both.

[00:25:45]

OK. All right.

[00:25:47]

One thing, I'm only a week after my father's death in July of 2013, I came down to stay at my aunt and uncle's farm in Camp de Louisiana after I went and met with Sheriff McKnight in Jefferson, Texas. And that's when he gave me my father's trunk. And then I went to the funeral home. Part of me wanted nothing to do with this. I hated him for what he did, but nobody else was going to show up. Here I am picking up his ashes.

[00:26:16]

Let me just kind of explain to you what we've got here. OK? Of course, there's this temporary container and. Certificates to get help to get it opened, just take something to kind of popular and lose, it's made to kind of snap in there and stay put. So just, you know, pop that out and then inside, here's a plastic bag that's got a zip tied with a coin on it, you know, to identify his remains.

[00:26:45]

We all can scare them. And then whatever you want to keep, you can do that. You don't have to fill all that out. I just a signature because I've got all the other information that we need to date it. And that's OK. Take care of all that. Anything else you need or. I don't think so. Any questions you might have. OK. OK, but you know, I saw this thing on the local news and I was touched by that.

[00:27:16]

I just you know, I do care and hope things get better for you.

[00:27:19]

Thank you. All right. I just sprinkled some of my father's ashes and one of his favorite fishing spots.

[00:27:35]

They really loved it out here, and this is where he was happiest. So this is where he needed to be. So he laid to rest.

[00:27:46]

I guess there's just closure. No, not at all.

[00:27:54]

I just have a lot of unfinished business. Well, he was put in a bad situation. In hindsight, I got to wondering, how did I miss the Sands? This is my dad's good friend, Vernon Browder. You heard Vern back in Episode one, he lived in a trailer on the land that Vivian and my father owned behind their house. He was trying to get disability. Now, here he is, 74 years old, was a bum leg in pain all the time, can't do anything.

[00:28:35]

And the government was ignoring him. They would never do anything for him, nothing. A crippled at Harton. And he finally made a decision. It wasn't the right decision. But it was a decision. Before I left, Ferne walked me over to where my father kept his garden. Well, Paul had a great line here that had white grapes on it, but it was the sweetest grape I've ever tasted. But the fire killed them, so they were right in here.

[00:29:25]

This used to be a garden. You to be happier times here. I mean, makes me very sad to come over here and look at the house where it burned down. It really makes me. Really sad to say that, because it brings back a lot of memories. But time heals everything. In episode one, Don Wasniewski told the story of knocking on the door at my dad's house because he and Vivian hadn't shown up for their Fourth of July barbecue.

[00:30:00]

And even though there was a sign on the door that said to Louisiana she'd found my dad inside. Later, Don realized that Vivian and her son had already been killed and their bodies were still in the house while she was standing in it. I was surprised to hear that Donna and her husband, Dale, had nothing but fond memories of the domes, they'd even set up a makeshift memorial.

[00:30:25]

This is a favor and it has a calming etched into it of a hummingbird. And it was a poem, Vivienne's. It was by the door in front of the house.

[00:30:38]

And I brought it here to be in the garden, in the planter with the the the flowers and the the greenery that came from from the RV park.

[00:30:52]

And when we got it, it was all charred from the house fire and all of that. So it just it reminded us of Paul and Vivian.

[00:31:00]

It was as far as I'm concerned, they were really good friends.

[00:31:06]

Whenever I drive past there, I think about Vivian and Paul. We never forgot them.

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And, you know, it it always makes me wonder, you know, how Paul could've done that. He wasn't an awful person. He could be grumpy sometimes and Vivian would just say, well, has his legs probably bothering him. I guess you just you don't always know people. These people all knew Paul Dohm well, but they knew nothing about Butch Crouch, he'd kept it a secret from all of them, even his wife. When I first began the journey to tell the story, I knew that I'd find out some awful things about my father, although I figured it couldn't get much worse than hearing about his double murder suicide.

[00:32:03]

But I also hope that to hear from people who he touched in positive ways, I wanted to believe that there was a piece of him, even a moment in time, that he didn't only think about himself, but hearing from his friends didn't make me feel any better about him. It actually makes me feel worse because I know the truth. And the truth is that my father never moved a muscle unless he thought he could help himself. The truth is that he sacrificed his family and left us to struggle in Billings, Montana.

[00:32:35]

And because of him, my life has been a daily struggle, and because of that, my children have struggled. He projected an image of toughness and bravado his whole life because that's how he got over on people. But he was nothing more than a coward in every sense of the word. My aunt and uncle even told me that after I visited him in 2006 that he was upset with them. He was afraid that someone might follow me and find out where he was hiding.

[00:33:06]

The truth is that he died a scared, weak and pathetic man and he took two innocent lives with him. But as I'm sure you figured out by now, the story is messy. And as strange as it might sound, he was my dad and I still love him even now, even though he left me one last time to try to make sense of his decisions.

[00:33:40]

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[00:35:19]

My dad was the same age. As I am now, when everything happened with the club, when he turned. This audio is from April of 2015. It's almost two years after my father's death and I'm driving in Cleveland. I'm in town visiting my uncle Meanjin and my cousins, but I'm also here to do something else, something that I knew would be one of the most important things I would do in my life. I had a dream last night that I went to the club and they're all being fine and everything was cool, and then they handed me a sandwich and had me eat it or told me to eat it.

[00:36:09]

And I looked down. I thought it was a hot dog and it was there was a finger in it. Everybody is. Nervous about the Hells Angels, still, they're concerned about what they think and me, on the other hand, it's a story that needs to be told. Doesn't even look like anybody's there. You're go. Ever since Sheriff McKnight gave me my father's trunk and I open that Ziploc bag with his patches inside, I thought about this moment.

[00:36:55]

From the time that I was seven years old, I was told that the Hells Angels wanted to kill me and that my life depended on staying as far away from them as I could. And here I was about to walk into the Cleveland Hells Angels clubhouse.

[00:37:13]

I was really nervous and I knew enough not to record anywhere near the clubhouse. One of the members answered the door. I introduced myself and he invited me in. I spent about an hour inside and then I got back into the car full of adrenaline. I was nervous, I didn't know who was going to answer the door, I didn't know how he was going to act towards me, and then I just told him, I just have something. I just I brought it along long way.

[00:37:52]

So when he asked why why did you come to Cleveland, I said, because I need to give these patches back. These patches are not mine. They belong to the club. Everybody thinks I'm crazy for bringing them here, but it's something that needs to be done. So do you know who I am now, and you said I said, you know what I've gone through? And you said I do actually like you're on the witness protection program.

[00:38:16]

Right. I sure you knew exactly who I was once it clicked. Oh, OK. I know you are. But I'm like everybody thinks I'm crazy for coming here. And he's like, you know, you're returning these. And not many people would have done that, but you did. So we really appreciate that, that this is where they belong. And like, I've been offered a lot of money for this, he's like, oh, I know.

[00:38:40]

And we'd be happy to give you money for them. I'm like, nope, I don't want your money. My dad would be furious if if if he knew what I just did, because that is not what he wanted me to do with those patches. It's not his decision to make anymore, it's mine. For me, there were so many different emotions wrapped up in those patches, so much meaning, that's why it took me almost two years to bring them back to the clubhouse.

[00:39:22]

But once I did, it was a relief, like a burden had been lifted. And I finally felt some sense of closure. It felt like I can move forward now with my own life and not have to keep looking back at my father's. But the very next day, I got a phone call. I'm standing there talking to my uncle and my phone rings and I look down at my phone and it's somebody from Ohio and I said, Hello?

[00:39:52]

He said, Hey, Jackie, this is Andy. Shawn.

[00:39:57]

Andy called me and Andy is the man that my father testified against twice. But now I'm talking to him on the phone, this man that I've been hiding from my entire life, this man and his friends, and I'm shaking like a motherfucker, and I'm trying not to say I'm trying to keep my cool. I'm trying to keep my voice cool, but I'm freaking out and pissing on the little pebble path. And my uncle is watching me intently. And he's trying to listen and watch me and him how's it going, A.J.?

[00:40:34]

You know, and he said, I heard about what you did and we just wanted to know if maybe we could take you out for dinner. Do you have any plans? How long you in town? So I made plans to have dinner with Andy Shushan and another Hells Angel named Kenny Yates, who is a member at the same time as my dad. They let me pick the restaurant, so I chose a place down the street from where I was staying with my cousin so that she'd be close by if anything went wrong.

[00:41:09]

I was nervous, yeah, I was nervous because I'm the daughter of the man who tried so desperately to lock them up. And I'm going out to dinner with them. There's the little thing in the back of my head that what if you're just fucking stupid? What if you're just being too trusting? What if you you know, what if they really do want to kill you? It was nerve wracking to me, but I had to see if I still had anything to worry about.

[00:41:39]

They were actually standing outside waiting for me, and I recognized them right away. Are two guys in leather jackets. They were wearing their colors, but they were standing outside of the door. So we went and we got a table. So I'm sitting down with these guys that every sector of the government has told me for the past 30 years are out to kill me. I'm sitting down to dinner with these guys.

[00:42:08]

Now, one of the first things that both of them said was, thank you so much. You know that that's fucking balls. We're just so thankful that you did that and that you knew.

[00:42:21]

And, you know, you've have our undying respect and we're always here for you. And how's your mom? How is your mom? Please tell her that we miss her and we love her.

[00:42:32]

And there is never anything to be afraid of. We would have never hurt you and the family.

[00:42:36]

That's a bunch of bullshit. And they both said that over and over again, reached across and grabbed my hand at one point and said, you never had anything to worry about.

[00:42:47]

I hope you realize that.

[00:42:51]

We went and we talked to your grandfather shortly after this happened and told him our only concern is where Butches we're not interested in marrying the kids.

[00:43:03]

And when they told me that I studied every millimeter of their faces and I know that they're telling the truth, we should have never been put in witness protection in the first place.

[00:43:20]

Everything that the marshals had said, all the threats and everything that was all a bunch of bullshit I just call bullshit on it all. We are never in danger. I really strongly feel that with every ounce of my being that it was just all in vain.

[00:43:40]

The ATF and the marshals used us as pawns in their little game of trying to expose organized crime in the late 70s and early 80s. We're used by the U.S. government and it was almost a competition between different agencies and agents, as well as who was going to take down the club. And we, my fucking family, were collateral damage. It gave me a lot of peace knowing that I was safe now, but it also lit a huge fire. I knew that something had to be done about WITSEC.

[00:44:25]

What I'm looking to change is I don't believe that children should be put on WITSEC. And the children that have been put on WITSEC, none of them have health coverage, none of them have mental health care, nobody is being checked on. So am I asking for money for these people? No, not at all. A lot of people think that, well, they just want money.

[00:44:45]

No, I'm not asking for that. I'm asking for proper identification, proper health coverage and proper mental health care. Those are the three things that I'm asking for, for the current people that are on WITSEC. I don't care about the criminals that snitched out their buddies so they didn't go to jail. I care about the children that have been put on WITSEC from the day that WITSEC started. Those are the people that I care about. My advice would be to appoint a special advocate for each individual child and there has to be something to prove that this child is in grave danger before they're put on a witness protection program.

[00:45:22]

Maybe there are circumstances where the children are in danger. Should they be given to their parents that have committed crimes? Fuck no. They should be put in a completely separate environment. I would have had a better chance in foster care. If it was an innocent witness that was on the streets and saw something happen, that's completely different. But my mother and father, they were definitely not innocent in this. And why were we given to them to race, why did they place three little children with a serial killer?

[00:46:06]

The definition, according to the FBI, of a serial killer is somebody that kills two or more people with time in between. My father killed many people with time in between. It's a fucking serial killer. What was his last act? He killed his wife, a stepson and himself. He was a monster, it was a horrible human being, he was evil to the core. Still to this day, I'm baffled how how this happened, and it's not just me.

[00:46:39]

There are plenty of other children that were put in the same situation. We've had a lot of other children of WITSEC reach out to me, so that's my responsibility as a human being to help these other people that are stuck. I often compare it to walking across a busy street and I make it to the other side and I look back and there's a little old lady that stumbled while just because I made it to the other side safely doesn't mean that I don't have a responsibility as a human being to go help that little old lady safely across.

[00:47:20]

I'm working with a man who just turned 50 years old and fought for our country and he's struggling with his identity right now. And that infuriates me.

[00:47:29]

He has no birth certificate. He has no passport, and he doesn't know what he's going to do. And I'm not going away ever until everything is rectified, until this program is systematically revamped from the ground up. There's just so many issues that need to be addressed here, and my ultimate goal is to end up on the Capitol steps and testifying in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee, possibly form a special committee within the U.S. Marshals, somebody like me who actually cares and has time to help these people.

[00:48:16]

And I'm not going to shut up and I'm not going to go away. I'll do anything I can, but this is going to be changed and I'm not going to stop until it is. Jacqui will take the shirt off her back for anybody, she will do anything and everything to help anybody out, and she is so compassionate about people. It's just amazing and you've got to know her for a long time to see that in her, but she's a very compassionate person.

[00:48:48]

She's always there for you. She's always got an ear. She'll always listen to you. She'll always help you. And she's funny, I love her personality, I get a kick out of her. I worry she's going to get me in trouble sometimes, but she's just an amazing person down deep inside.

[00:49:09]

If she needed me to do anything for her, I would do it, and she loves her friends. She's loyal to us just as much as we are to her. She didn't have a closeness in her own family, so when she reaches out to someone as a friend, she pulls them in and they become a part of her family. They become her family. She's got a big heart.

[00:49:41]

Even if you wrong her, you know, she gives second chances and maybe she shouldn't. But she's got a big heart. She tries to act like a tough girl. But I see it in her eyes and I see it when she talks about it. It is hurtful. She's she's in a lot of pain and she talks about her dad. You know, the ghost of her father always is there. Since being ripped away from my family in Ohio, I've gained a lot of friends and I've turned my friends into the family that I was ripped away from.

[00:50:21]

So I have many nieces and nephews, many, many dear friends, lifelong friends, and they mean the world to me. They brought me back. I'm forever thankful to the people in my life and they're always there. So you know what I what I lack and in my family, my friends have more than made up for it. I'm very proud of this town, I fought it for so long, I never wanted to be here and now I'm in love with my town and I never want to leave.

[00:50:58]

The sense of community here is like nothing that I've ever seen or witnessed anywhere else. If I had anything good to say about the marshals, they picked the right town because I love this place. I. I used to think that I had the most fucked up life of anybody that I'd ever known, and I do. I've had a lot of setbacks in my life. I've had a lot of struggles. I've had a gun in my mouth many times.

[00:51:34]

I chipped a tooth on my barrel once. I've been to some really dark places in my life.

[00:51:44]

Everybody has the power to climb out of that hole.

[00:51:50]

I have the choice every day on what kind of life I want to lead if I want to be happy today or not. I have to look past all the shit that I've been through, drugs and alcohol are never going to help those dark thoughts. They're only going to make them worse. One of the things that makes me the happiest is taking myself out of Jackie Taylor and being humble about myself and my surroundings. I've gained a lot of happiness serving dinner at the Montana rescue mission on Christmas Eve, working in hospice, taking care of people in the final stages of their life, starting a five one three helping families in crisis.

[00:52:43]

That is what has brought me inner peace and happiness. It's all about helping people along the way. So am I happy? Yes. I'm not resentful for the life that I have been forced to live. I'm actually very grateful. It's given me a purpose and it's given me empathy. There's really not a lot that I haven't been through in my life, and it's just made me stronger and fearless. And it's made me appreciate the little things, you know, a lot of things happen in this world and it can be a really dark place.

[00:53:33]

And every time somebody is light goes out, this world gets a little darker.

[00:53:39]

Don't let your light go out. I'm not letting my light go out and I've been through some shit. Without a lot. Fend of the enemy, sing God the Jubilee with all the fire we can bring. Thank you so much for listening to Relative Unknown, if you liked it, please give it a five star review. Relative unknown as a creation and presentation of C 13 originals, a division of kadence 13 and Roomer Inc executive produced by Chris Corcoran, Zach Levitt, David Beilinson, Michael Golinski and Sooky Holly, written, produced, directed and edited by Zach Levitt, produced and edited by Perry Croal.

[00:55:00]

Our theme song is Change on the Rise by Avi Kaplan Original Music composed by Joel Goodman, Mixed and Mastered by Bill Schulz. Production Support by Ian Mont and Lloyd Lakeridge Field Recording by Rich Berner, Michael Golinski, Perry Croll and Connor waddingham production, engineering and coordination by Sean Cherry and Terrence Malick on Artwork, Marketing and PR by Kurt Courtney Josephine of Frances and Hilary.

[00:55:28]

Chef, I'm Jackie Taylor and thanks for listening to Relative Unknown.

[00:55:35]

I feel a change on the.