I'm Jon Meacham, author and historian, I'm proud to present a brand new limited podcast, documentary series called It Was Set, where I guide you through ten of the most historic, impactful and timeless speeches in American history.

That's the word go forth from this time and place to friend and foe alike.

We do not want our freedom gradually, but we want to be free now. The future will always be ours. The America John McCain is generous and welcoming and bold. My I have seen the glory of the. Directed and produced by Peabody nominated Sea 13 original studios in association with history, it was said, is now available for free on Apple podcasts, Spotify, radio, dotcom, and wherever you listen to podcasts. 13 originals. Tell the guys that people aren't crazy, can we've got to get started?

I'll come in as long as I've got room. You know, there will be an engineer. You better start hearing things than everybody, and we've got everybody. The committee will come to order.

This is the voice of Strom Thurmond, the late senator from South Carolina yesterday and our organized crime hearing.

We focused on outlaw motorcycle gangs. We received testimonies from agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, which linked outlaw motorcycle gangs and and the La Cosa Nostra, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms testimony also disclose the gang's propensity for violence, as well as our total disregard for human dignity and the rights of others. Outlaw motorcycle gangs such as the Pagans, Hells Angels, Outlaws and the Bandidos are involved in murder, drug distribution, prostitution, rape, theft and extortion.

We want all of the criminal activities in the lifestyles of the gang members as seen from the standpoint of law enforcement authorities. Today we will hear from individuals who have actually been outlaw motorcycle gang members and participate in these activities. They will tell their stories and disclose some of the inner workings of the gangs. Our first witness this morning is Butch, which is a federally protected witness. And in order to protect his safety and no information concerning his identity is being provided.

We appreciate the cooperation of the Department of Justice and the U.S. Marshal Service in making this witness available. Mr. Rader, you have in your remarks you want to make this time that witness?

Yes, Senator. I briefly like to describe his background, if I could, for you, which is a 43 year old member of the Cleveland, Ohio, chapter of the Hells Angels motorcycle gang. He has been a member of that gang for 14 years. He was a founding member of the Bandidos motorcycle gang in Texas in 1966, 1967 seven. He left the Bandidos and went to the Road Bender's motorcycle gang in Florida. And there he went to the Reaper's motorcycle gang in Houston, Texas, then back to the Bandidos, where he eventually took charge of their Nomad chapter.

He left the Bandidos and rejoined the Hells Angels in late nineteen sixty seven. In nineteen sixty eight, he helped re-establish the Cleveland's Hells Angels chapter. In nineteen sixty nine, he became Vice President of that chapter. In nineteen seventy. He was a club sergeant at arms remaining in that position until nineteen seventy one when he pled guilty to manslaughter charges. He was sentenced to workhouse in Waterville Heights, Ohio, until his release in nineteen seventy two. Nineteen seventy two until nineteen eighty one, which was actively involved.

National runs and other membership affiliations of the Hells Angels, which can't explain how one becomes a member of it and the significance of colors. He can give detailed accounts of crimes committed by motorcycle clubs. He can testify as to the function of old ladies prospects and hang around. He can tell of territorial disputes as well as social and business affiliations with other biker gangs and organized crime. According to Bush, the book The Godfather was used to reorganize the Hells Angels along the lines of traditional organized crime, etc.

. Your witness. Thank you. And our bridge. Would you be sworn in at this time? Yes. Raise your hand.

Based on the evidence you give in there, sharing should be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. So help you God? Yes.

Wood goods, a man who's lost his soul, can't take a stand when these flames gon go. Friend of the enemy saying the jubilee with all the fire we can bring.

I'm Jackie Taylor and this is relative unknown.

But yeah, this is Berkovich, yeah. OK, let me lay it out just the way it comes. OK? Back in November of 1981, when my father watched, Crouch made the decision to call Bernie Berkovich of the Cleveland ATFP, he put himself in an impossible position. He wanted out of the Hells Angels and he thought rolling over and working a deal to put us all into witness protection was the safest way to accomplish that. So when he went back to Ohio and was interviewed by Berkovich and his supervisor, Steve Wells, he gave them information on various crimes committed by other members.

But they told him that in order to cut a deal with the government and become a protected witness, he needed to give them something that he had direct involvement in. OK, give me some homicide victims that you were involved in, not you, but I was involved in. I'm not saying, hey, tell me who did what. Just tell me what you know. In other words, you know about so-and-so getting their head popped, you know, about a certain bombing.

You see what I'm getting at? It's my understanding they had told him that he could confess to damn near anything except killing somebody and he wouldn't get any time. So what's the first thing he does? He confesses to being involved in the murder.

This is Roger Davidson, former Summit County prosecutor in Akron, Ohio, which is where the murder occurred that my father confessed to. Clarence Crouch, when he told the ATF about being involved in a murder, that was probably one of the most idiotic things that I have ever seen a defendant do other than flat out confessing to a murder after your rights are read to you. Why he just didn't shut up at that point in time, get a lawyer at that point in time, if there was no way around discussing the murder, have some kind of deal set up.

But he did not. He just started blabbing and the ATF agents had their oh shit moment.

My father had assumed that when he called Bernie Berkovich, he'd end up with little to no time.

OK, you may have to plead out to one felony, probably an ATF type of case. OK, I have to plead out to a felony.

And Berkovich thought that my father would implicate himself in some small felony and then help him dismantle the Cleveland Hells Angels.

You mean I got a cop to a felony Amdo time? Yeah, that's the way it's laid out here from strike force. People that don't sound right.

But when Butch confessed to the unsolved murder of a 17 year old, it put them both behind the eight ball. The visuals of the ATF coming in and asking for mercy. For a murder is not very good. And that's what they were going to start having to ask the court for, Judge. You can't give this guy a ton of absolute time here. God help us convict some of these guys that I want to convict. That was the oh shit for.

Shortly after that, when they brought him to us to talk to them and to get them a lawyer so they could handle the state case as quickly and expeditiously as possible to get themselves out from under the bus and still try to keep cooperating with the. But before he could even be used as a witness during any trials, they had to put that murder to bed and to put that murder to bed, my father would have to agree to plead guilty to it.

Now, he had some leverage.

Remember, during this time, my mom had taken us to Sebring, Florida, to get away from him. And we were happy there. But my father wouldn't plead guilty unless we were all taken into WITSEC together. What about my old lady and kids? Chances are if you want your lady and kids, they're going to go with you.

That's a crucial detail that I'll come back to later. But here's another important detail. He was able to demand that his plea agreement and sentencing would be taken care of before he testified in any trial. Lawrence Whitney was the acting defense attorney who handled the plea proceeding. Normally, a testifying codefendant would enter into an agreement with the government about what the sentence would be. Then he would enter a plea of guilty and he wouldn't be sentenced until the government was convinced that he fulfilled his bargain.

Did he testified that he testified truthfully and the judge could take all of those things into consideration in determining what to do with him, time of sentencing. But this case, he pled and he was sentenced all at the same time, which was something I would want to do as a defense lawyer, but normally something the prosecutors do not want to do. They want to make sure that he follows through.

So they were convinced that he would follow through before knowing what kind of witness he would be or how truthful his testimony would be. My father secured his guilty plea in stone ten to 40 years for manslaughter. It was more than he'd expected, but he knew he'd confess to a murder and he was ready to get on with it. Signing the deal at that point was just a formality. Here is Lawrence Whitney again.

I stayed up there in the prosecutor's office waiting for him to come. I remember being in towards the end of the day, it was a long day for me. So I shut the door and waited for them to come and I kind of relaxed a little bit. And frankly, I put my feet up on the desk, unbutton my tie. I'm kind of put my head back, I'm trying I'm trying to slow down for the day and all of a sudden door opens.

How come the marshals with him in tow? There had to be a couple of those guys and him in the middle of them and they walk in the office and he stops. And I look up at him and he looks down at me. He said, well, what do they do that they put a tie on the fucking janitor? That's what he said. That was the first time I met the man. Now, which would you be sworn at this time?

Yes, raise your hand based on the evidence you given, their sharing should be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. So help you God? Yes.

As part of his plea deal, which crotchet agreed to testify in trials brought by local, state or federal agencies and to provide information in any way those agencies requested. So on Thursday, March 3rd, 1983, as part of its hearing on organized crime in America, the United States Senate Judiciary Committee asked my father to give testimony about the inner workings of the Hells Angels. Nobody had ever done anything like this before, and so under armed guard, they placed in behind a curtain to maintain his safety and anonymity.

Only his brown leather shoes could be seen beneath the curtain. This is the actual audio of the hearing with my father's real voice here. Senator Chuck Grassley of Iowa asks him some questions. As a member of this committee, I want to thank you very much for your willingness to come and testify, because this is a very important hearing. I have several questions. Did the Hells Angels ever commit any acts of violence on behalf of any traditional organized crime family?

Yes. Would you elaborate? Well, in nineteen seventy seven, they were taking contracts from the Mafia, from different fractions. There was an infraction. It was working and there was a war going on between them and Danny Green's fractioning. And I know that they were taking contracts, hits for the Irish fractioned side of it. And in seventy seven, one of the members held to remember he was also an intelligence officer there, which I get into like he was setting a bomb on a car that belonged to one of the Italian guys.

And the bomb blew up and he was killed.

Here he's speaking about one Hells Angel in a Cernik was killed while placing a bomb on the car of a Cleveland mob associate.

And at that time, the president, we had a meeting and the president was elected. Go talk to the Italian fractioned and tell him that this guy was not in the club at the time that he was killed and and try to keep out of it because we didn't want to get between the two fractions or whatever how many contract killings were conducted. A couple that I know of, just a couple that I know of, at least four of you at least.

Who was that on the behalf of the Mafia against the Irish? No, the other way. The other way. You know, the Irish citizen, Danny Green for action against the Italian action. What is the role of the intelligence officer in the Hells Angels and what type of intelligence information do the Hells Angels maintain?

Intelligence officer was established back seventy four. Seventy three. And it was an office together. All the information they could on the outlaws, pagans, any club in the United States, any police officer, any news band, anybody that Hells Angels had a grudge against. And they gathered it up from all the different people they know and they collect all their addresses, types of cars, what girls they used to go with or whatever. And they have a saying in Hells Angels that came out in the paper a long time ago, back at seventy one or so that Hells Angels has a memory like an elephant never forgets.

And that's quite a common saying now. So if they have a they have a grievance with somebody, it never ends. They are the intelligence officer goes to different towns. He's supplied with money from the Treasury for that specific reason from a TCBY fund, which is taking care of business, which is the primary source of these funds. The primary source. Yes, drugs, burglaries, wherever they can get their hands on. Is it true that they are beginning to store intelligence information on computer tapes over the years?

All that information that people were gathering up was always on little pieces of paper on the back of cards or whatever, and they tried to keep it all together and it just got all out of hand. And in nineteen eighty, there's a member in Cleveland who had a motorcycle shop. He had a computer in it. So it was brought to the church one night. By church you mean a mini church. That's that's what they call a meeting. The term is is church which is every week and it's mandatory.

It's the phones were taken out from the Treasury and paid for the computer to put all this information into a computer which centralize everything, plus what members had rolled their bombs and where they had rolled their bonds.

All the information, every bit of information, you know, what's the term rolling your bones. We all new member when he joins the club, he has six months. We tend to roll his bonds to kill someone. Once he gets his patch, he gets his patch and then he has to roll his bones within six months. We don't roll his bones. Within six months, he loses his patch. He has to kill someone in order to become a full fledged member.

Then they have to have committed a murder. They're told that after they get their patch, they'll have to kill someone. And if they renege on that, then they're killed. Or you see, if the person does not commit a murder, then he is killed. Yes, because then he knows and he knows too much. At this point. I think it might be a good opportunity to tell us about the initiation process and continuing on then with a total induction into the Hells Angels.

All right. First, it's a hang around. When he first comes around the club, there's a lot of mud chicken. He has to fight. A lot of people, a lot of people jump on him. They jump on him in twos, threes. Then after a period of time, which it may be three months, it may be a year or two years. We have a vote and it has to be one hundred percent vote that he's allowed to be a hang around and.

Then he becomes a hang around, he can come into the clubhouse and he can do flunkey work, then it becomes a prospect and it can be brought up for Prospekt three times if he's ever if he's voted down three different times. So then they run him off, they beat him up, take his old lady, take his motorcycle, run away, then it's a prospect. He's on 24 hour call. There's always a watch at the clubhouse. He's down to watch upstairs.

He's armed with there's car being shotguns, there's twilights up the scopes, there's scanners, everything. They have a security room and the top of the clubhouse. And he sits there at night from 12:00 to daylight.

What how formal or ceremonial is the initiation process? Well, there's usually a big party, a lot of drink and fight and just it's toned down from the years before. I used to be everybody would urinate on them. Everybody would throw grease on them and things like that, and they would have to do things to women that.

Senator Grassley then asks my father about the club's treatment of women.

It's a whole different set of rules for women. They're allowed to pass all the time. And there's people pick girls up on the street hitchhiking and stuff like that, bring them down, keep them around clubhouse a couple of days. Everybody uses abuses. Then they run them off. Some that's older, they turn out. What do you mean by turnout, turnout, prostitution? Don't go down to Charlotte or whatever work down there. You know, Sarge Pollaers, California, there's a lot of prostitution.

New York, all the old ladies out there work topless bars, sell drugs. It's about the same criteria for everybody all the way across the money comes back to the gang member or yes, it comes back them as an individual. Yes. All of it. All of it. The questioning turns from women to the Hells Angels war with the Outlaws, many of the killings in Cleveland that my father wrote about told the ATF about and took part in centered around this war.

Here he talks about how it began in 1970 for the year I was born. In Florida or went down to investigate the killing of two Hells Angels and an ex Hells Angels, back in seventy four, there was two members that had quit the club and they were from the local mass charter. Well, two members from the local mass charter were sent down there to make sure that they had their tattoos covered. And while they were there, they were in a motorcycle shop and the outlaw motorcycle gang came there on them.

And these two people were found shot in the back of the head with a shotgun. And one ex member was found and they were all in upon some kind of rock pit that's just outside of town. And the club sent me down there to investigate it. Me and another member from New York City, we've seen all the autopsies and all reports and things like that. And we went and talked to the outlaws. We set up a meeting with them.

And then we went and talked to the guy that on the motorcycle shop, we talked to approximately about 30 people down there. And after we were down there, maybe 10 days, we found out that they had done it and they had done it in our clubhouse on a route that they were going to take them over there and cover their tattoos or something like that and took them out and shot him in the head. So we reported back that outlaws had done it.

So then they had the big officers meeting and they declared all out war on outlaws and all the nature of the meetings where their formal meetings, you know, they have an officers meeting every three months, all the East Coast.

And there's usually a West Coast representative there. There's an East Coast in the West Coast and Omaha is the borderline. And the meeting was held in Cleveland and they decided, all right, we're going to have all of our war against the outlaws and the war. There was a lot of bombings, a lot of shootings, a lot of killings. How many people were killed during that year? There's at least 15 that I know of right offhand. Probably come up with more 15 people killed.

Yes, just outlaws. There was other people killed at the same time. How many Hells Angels to kill Hells Angels? There's five or six that I'm personally aware of. Five or six Hells Angels will kill. Yes. Now, what brought on this thing was something about removing tattoos or covering that called All Hells Angels have a tattoo is mandatory.

Nine days after you get your patch, you must have your Hells Angel tattoo. And it's all taken from the same stuff. 90 days after you get your patch, you have to have nine days. Hells Angels, the death head and the what? The death hit the skull with wings and and the skull and all that tattoo. The whole thing is that the Hells Angels, the emblem, the M.C. and the bottom rocker or whatever state you're from, there's been incidences where where people with tattoos, phony Hells Angel tattoos have had them cut off their arms, had the whole tattoo, just removed the knife and anybody coming and they had a tattoo.

They would just take a knife and cut it off here and cut enough flesh off to get rid of the tattoo. Yes, it was considered quite a trophy. There's only cuttings on the arms. I never heard of anyone getting their back cut off, although I did go to an outlaw that include cutting trophies off of Adelies as well as other people who. Yes, I was in Memphis in seventy six, seventy seven and I was in a tattoo shop getting a tattoo on my arm.

A lot of outlaws walked down and one of the outlaws had a outlaws Memphis on his back with their center logo and I put one hundred eighty stitches in his back with a big X through it because one hundred and eighty in his back. Yes, it was reported to police. Was anything ever done of that. They tried to catch me but I got out of town. What size piece of flesh did you cut off of.

And I didn't cut, I didn't cut it off of him. I just put a great big X and I just put a great big X in it. It's been in magazines.

You put a big X on him just to mark it at. Yes. And why did you do that? What was the purpose?

I made him an X member as Gaikwad. Every person who gets picked up by the feds or state law enforcement agencies get told the old phrase, first in, first out, the first person that comes in here in snitches is the first one is going to get out of jail. That's the theory of prosecutions all over the United States. And that's what every criminal knows.

Journalist Bill Mucci gave an unprecedented inside view of the witness protection program in the Pittsburgh Post Gazette in nineteen ninety six.

And he says information is currency. I've seen cases just recently where I told my wife that person better get his or her butt into the office and rat somebody out or they're going to go do everybody else's time. That's why the convicts look at it. They think the ones that are in prison screwed up are not going to rat and people out early. And they all figure they're doing somebody else's time because that person ratted out. It started in 1964 with Joe Valachi, the first mafia turncoat more than anything.

That's when prosecutors realized that snitches were the coin of the realm, the entire prosecution system, after Valachi started leaning towards the idea of a snitch culture. Instead of doing good old fashioned gumshoe police work, prosecutors and agents started just saying, who can we get to rat somebody out? Then we'll build a case around what the rat says. That's what caused the increase of the program, which was doubling every couple of years. And that's a direct relationship to the idea that we became a snitch culture back in the late 60s.

And it still exists to this day. Name a case that I've ever seen where there's not a snitch over the last 20 years. I can't name one. And I've been covering crime my whole life.

Mucci says that over the decades, a hierarchy has formed among protected witnesses. The more valuable his information, the better the deal. You may have heard of Sammy The Bull Gravano, the notorious underboss for the Gambino crime family in New York, whose testimony helped bring down John Gotti.

Well, Gravano pulled the best deal that's ever been made in the history of the WITSEC program. He had amassed millions and millions of dollars and the government didn't seize his money in court. He said he killed 18 people by the time they were done cross-examine him. He admitted to 23 killings and he said eighteen, twenty three, whatever. And he then worked a deal where he did about five years and change or less than three months a body. He had some leverage over them as simple as that.

And he gets out, moves to Arizona, where I even knew where he was. And the people in the WITSEC prison he was in had a pool going on how long it would be before he got arrested again. And sure enough, he and his family got busted for being the largest ecstasy distributors in the United States. Now he's doing 20 years in Arizona now, but that was all of his own making. If he would have stuck with the feds, he could have lived the life of Riley.

But the thing about it is not that many stars. The lion's share of people feel like they were ripped off. Everyone I've ever talked to felt the same way that they were the star until their testimony was over with and then they were the pieces of shit that they really are in the eyes of the government. Now, I want to ask you a question about whether or not it's true that Hells Angels provide security for entertainers at rock concerts.

Yes. Do you know of any Hells Angels that have turned against the rock stars? It's one incident that I'm aware of that happened over killing at a concert in this one band. The club felt that the band didn't stand behind them, that it hired them to do security than what you mean by a band, this rock band.

This one specific rock band that I'm talking about, they had thrown a concert and someone was killed. Well, they felt that this rock club should have stayed behind them and said that they had hired them for security around the band, around the bandstand or whatever, but they didn't. They just left. So there's always been more or less open controversy on this, this band and this person. And there's been two attempts that I know of that failed to attempt to want to kill him.

One kill rock concert man. Yeah, one was. Yeah. Would kill him. No, I won't ask his name in public. We may want to ask him unless you want to disclose his name. Now, I feel honored as well as Mick Jagger and the Rolling Stones.

It's from the Altamont thing one to tell us more about the attempts on his life.

One attempt was made where they sent a member with a gun and a silencer to a hotel, and he stalked that hotel for a long time, but they didn't show up then. The next attempt was a few years later, somewhere around seventy nine, somewhere around. And when they were in New York City for a concert or something, they had someplace near water. And I was told that they took they were explaining to me how they did it. They had swam over and checked the place out at some house near water or something, and it was going to put a bomb up underneath it and they were going to blow the whole band and everybody in the party up.

And they were crossing there and they had a pontoon boat, a little rubber raft thing with plastic explosives in it. And they lost it in the water.

And the Hells Angels denied the idea of any attempt being made on Mick Jagger's life. And though it made for entertaining headlines, nothing more came of this part of my father's testimony.

Could you tell us how you got your bones? That means how you kill somebody? Yes, sir. I got a man from a Polish woman tall and that dates back to seventy one. So and we started the bones thing around to kill somebody. Yes. In that whole going, we went to the hall, we walked in the hall and here they came is about two hundred and eight of them come marching in the doors and they all came in and everybody was shoulder to shoulder in the fight, got off on the fight, got off.

I started punching people. I kept hitting this one kid. I hit him once and I went to somebody else at the corner of my ass. He didn't go down. I turn around, hit him again, and I noticed his eyes was rolling back. And I looked up over his head and there was an arm coming down with a knife in it. And he stuck me in chest. So I pulled my knife and hit him and I killed him.

That's the first person I would kill. And I went on and got stabbed again and I got stabbed in the back and I woke up on the floor with my knife sticking in. Some guy, one Hells Angels stabbed to death. Twenty eight bried were stabbed, cut to pieces. I was stabbed four times, but we stopped at club. There's no charters in Cleveland. There's no charters in Ohio. There's no charters in pay or anything like that anymore.

Then the outlaw of war came along and the killings just kind of got out of hand. There was there was women and children killed. Women. Children were killed. Yes. Why were they killed? They were killed along with outlaws, accidentally or intentionally. Senator, there are some pending litigation in Cleveland at this time regarding the particular incident that the witnesses alluding to. So we would ask the senator's permission not to answer that particular question and be all right.

I Casso had a few questions. Did you tell other people that after that one voted? Yes. Yes. How many murders have you committed? Total one other one one two total one one in the hall was self-defense, I felt. But anyway, then there was one more. There was and they got on my case at church at seventy four. Who is they. If you had intelligence they started screaming, you know that I hadn't done anything.

Me and. Remember that we hadn't done anything towards the outlaws and they said he is going to have to do something, I said, all right, well, I was ready to do something. So they told me to just wait and intelligence security would set something up. So in a few days, they came back and said, here's a shotgun, cut it down. And I cut down a shotgun and sold it off. Yes, cut down the barrel, cut down the stock and waited for a couple more days.

They said that they'd come by and pick me up. They had all the information in place. It was supposed to be an hour long meeting and they came by and pick me up and I was sitting in the front seat. One guy had a machine gun sitting in the backseat and the other guy had a forty five hours drive in. And I never really thought it would go down. And we drove down there. They'd already set it up, made it runs on it I guess, and checked it all out.

They had a car stash down there, another car and we drove down there and it all just took place just like that. They drove straight to it and it was a bunch of people standing outside and it was dark. And we pulled up and stopped and the machine gun opened up and I started shooting and I, I shot a window out. I shot a bike and I shot up the driveway and I hit somebody. Which is more or less why I'm sitting here, because it turned out to be a 17 year old kid in.

That was the only other killing I ever did. So you arrested in conviction for that? Yeah, but at the same time, he's serving time for that now. Yes.

There was an unsolved murder till I confessed to it.

What is the goal in life of the Hells Angels? And why did you join Hells Angels?

I joined because of a brotherhood. We were one family, one big family. While brotherhood. We would all stay together and we would all our kids would be Hells Angels. And, you know, it was something that that we'd all grow old and be proud of.

We're singing all day. You can't take. High tide, low tide, you know. The time, the voting time in we're going strong ended up down the river. I feel the revelation that I feel the change on the rise. Next time, a relative unknown, what we learned about Butch Crouch was not good news as far as being a good witness, he was going to be an awful hard sell to a jury if his word was all we had to go on.

My father comes face to face with his former Hells Angels Brothers in the courtroom. He was coming up with statements and there was people getting killed almost every day.

You know, I'm g come on. For episode transcripts and story extras visit a relative unknown outcome, relative unknown as a creation and presentation of C 13 originals, a division of kadence 13 and Roomer Inc executive produced by Chris Corcoran, Zach Levitt, David Beilinson, Michael Golinski and Sooky Holly, written, produced, directed and edited by Zach Levitt, produced and edited by Perry Croal. Our theme song is Change on the Rise by Avi Kaplan Original Music composed by Joel Goodman, Mixed and Mastered by Bill Schulz.

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I feel a change on the.