It's safe to say the last few weeks of the F1 season has been pretty entertaining, unbelievable, shocking, and the list of words just keeps flowing on. Here to help me dive into some of this stuff from Sdpn, it's Adam Wild. Adam, how are you doing, man?

Man, I think that this week has been more interesting than the entire year last year. And it's not to say a lot of people called last year boring, and I get it. But boy, I I don't think anything that happened last year can compare to even one of the stories starting with Andretti being stopped from F1, at least for now. So yeah, obviously, the big news this week is not Andretti, though.

No, let's start. It's Christian Horner, Red Bull Racing. Let's dive into it real quick. There's only so much that we do know at this moment. From what we do know, Christian Horner is being investigated in this This was actually reported by Eric Van Haeren from the Telegraph, Eric on this show a few weeks ago. Inappropriate behavior, misconduct within Red Bull Racing. What has gone down? We don't know. There is very little in terms of details as to what has actually happened within all of this, Adam, but it was interesting. Before we came on to record today, a journalist in Formula who works for a motorsport hotel, Chr. Nimmervall, actually put out a pretty interesting piece in how Joss Verstappen and Bernie Ecclestone fit within infighting that's happening behind the scenes at this team. This is stuff that we got wind of in terms of rumors a few days ago, but this is all of new stuff that's just getting flushed out and whether or not how factually accurate all of it is. I mean, Christian is pretty plugged in with the F1 paddock, Adam.

This is saying...

Sorry to cut you off. This is saying that it's in German, that translated over into English, but essentially it's saying that there's a lot of infighting between Horner and Marco and Horner and Max Verstappen's dad as well.

Well, I instantly saw that and I'm like, Oh, Joss Verstappen and Helmut Marco, two guys who are known for working well with others. I was sitting there going like, Of course, there's a power play going on here. If you read, I always go back to this book, Mark Webber's book on his time, well, in Formula One, but specifically at Red Bull with Sebastian Vettel, it really gives you a great insight into the Helmut Marco-Christian Horner relationship. Helmut Marco was a guy who was really tight with Dietrich Matteschitz, who obviously was the head of Red Bull, founder of Red Bull, and also the guy who headed up the Young Driver program, of which the first great graduate was Sebastian Vettel. And Mark outlines his view on how things were going and how at that time, Helmut Marco had far more power at the team, even though he wasn't an official member of Red Bull Racing, than Christian Horner did. And it doesn't surprise me at all, Tim, that there's some power play here. And there's got to be... I can understand the Verstoppen-Marco partnership because Helmut Marco was the guy that got Verstoppen to a Formula One.

There's a long term relationship. Didn't they pluck him out of nowhere at 12, 13, something like that? It might even be an earlier. Yeah.

He had a Formula Three, back in his Formula Three days.

Yeah. So So the idea is like, listen, I don't know what Christian Horner did. I don't know what he's being investigated for, but it certainly seems like there's politics behind this, too. It could be that whatever he did, he needs to go for that separately. But I also don't think that there are certain members of this team, this faction, because it is a factual team. There are politics at every office where they would be happy to see him go. But my question to you, Tim, is, okay, so he does go. Let's say he goes. Let's say they win, okay? Or Or whatever Christian did is so bad that he needs to be removed from his position. What then? Because the thing that I'd be worried about if I'm the Verstoppens is, okay, so now we've removed the team principal who's got us three championships in a row. And now what? We bring in our guy, but what if we don't achieve the results? Right?

Yeah. Well, I would say that at At the end of it, you would have to take a look at Jonathan Wheatley, who would be just underneath Christian Horner. He would probably be your next team principal up, maybe in an interim faction. Now, again, we're just guessing here at the moment. Sure. But that being said, you would move that individual into that position. But then at the same time, what happens with Adrian Newey, because there are rumors that a lot of what Adrian has done and been a part of at Red Bull was a big reason because of Christian Horner. And there's clauses in their deal? Apparently, that's the rumor. Nothing is confirmed.

And if you're listening to this and you don't know what we're talking about, the clauses are that, let's say it's Tim and I. If Tim leaves the team, then I get to leave, too, essentially, right? And it's vice versa.

Essentially, yeah. Yes, essentially. But again, just rumors, so we don't really know at the moment. But outside of all that, you would have to think that if that were true and Christian is having to step down and leave the team, then or fired, then you would assume that Adrian Newey would most likely go with him if those stories are true. Then on top of all that, the team is at In terms of its strength on the sporting side and on the racetrack, I mean, very strong right now. Then you have all of this going on, all of the infighting. You have to wonder if that really would take them out of a championship, would take them out of the entire season. There was just so much and so many layers to all this, Adam. So many layers.

Yeah. I think, again, fractional infighting is no big thing Red Bull. It seems to be that tension that's always been between the two sides. I think it's the Austrian side on the Salzberg side or something like that. There's two contingents.

I don't know. Honestly, it's hard to sort out because there's just so much of it behind the scenes. In fact, I didn't even know that Horner and Helmut Marco and Jasper were stopping. I didn't even know that they weren't really getting on. And why wouldn't they be? Yeah, what was the reason that they fell out?

What was the reason that they fell out?

Yeah, with their winning championships, their star driver as being their star driver, their car is incredible piece of machinery. What else happened behind the scenes? That's what I would like to know. That's what I would like to know.

Yeah, I agree with you. And I wonder, is this a... I mean, you wonder after last year where they win 19 out of 22 races. Sorry, 21 out of 22 races, where Max wins 18 or 19, whatever it was. You wonder what can stop a team like that. This is the thing that could stop a team like that. This is the thing where teams can be... It can be so good and so... But factual infighting will blow the team apart. And we have seen this before in different iterations, not an exactly like this. I don't think Nobody's ever had a season that comes close to as dominant as Red Bull's had. But I just feel like, Christian Horner's allegations aside, because we still don't know what they are. So it's difficult to speculate on that. If this team that's pushing him out wins, where does that leave the team that's there? If you lose Adrian Newy, forget Christian Horner. I mean, that's a sport where 90 % of it is the engineering, right? And the reason the drivers get paid so much, and rightfully so, is because they are the 10 %, and the 10 % is all the difference that you need.

I worry for a guy like... Imagine Sergio Perez right now. How do you think he's feeling about that? Imagine Daniel Ricardo, Christian Horner, has been your greatest champion, and you think that you're going to be on the Red Bull first team, probably by the end of the year, if you have a good season. What's he thinking right now? There's so many pieces that this affects, and it's just surprising because they put up a front last year like everybody's getting along. And yeah, sure, there's some inner team tension, but there is at every team. And now, man, Tim, I just feel like I'm looking at this and I'm like, This is a mess. This is a disaster. Faster for them right before the season starts. And maybe they still have a great car going into this year. If you lose Newey, you lose Horner. But it's two, three, four years down the road. Mercedes would jump on Newey in a second. Mclaren would jump Everybody would... He would be the most sought-after non-driving on the paddock. If that guy becomes available, it's over, I think.

One of the big things with Newey and why he left McLaren and came over to Red Bull. Well, one was because of this technical matrix that McLaren had designed for all of its engineers and developers, and it just didn't work. And Adrian knew he didn't want to have anything a part of it. And Coming over and working at Red Bull, one of the biggest things was Christian Horner just let him do what he wanted to do. If he wanted to use a pencil and draw on an easel, then that's what he... Go and do it. Whatever it is you need to do to make this car fast, have at it. And gave him free reign. Let him do whatever he wanted to. Now, who knows if another team would give him something like that? Who knows? Well, how could they not?

How could they not after the results of last year?

Well, again, there's other things, other teams. You said it yourself, where it's like there's politics up and down the paddock. There's politics internally. There's politics on the racetrack. It's scattered throughout the sport. And so for Nui to just... If he were to ever pick up and just leave or just quit or whatever, I would say that there would be a lot of teams after him, but I don't know who knows if they give him everything that he wants. That includes free reign to design the car that he wants to design. He wants to design. Speaking of cars, Adam.

Yes.

Speaking of cars, we got to see an actual F1 car, an actual 2024 F1 car on Wednesday. We finally got to see it. Finally. Yes, we did. It was the Alpine A5 24, and I liked it.

Well, they faked us out with the camo. We can say that, right?

Well, I mean, here's the thing. You mean the all-black, right? Like a lot of the black that's mixed in with the car? Yeah.

Did you see the teaser come out on Instagram yesterday where it was like a pink camo? They had like a pink camo nose? Yeah. So everybody was like, Oh, this is great. They're going to do something different. And then again, it's a more black car than it was a blue car last year. But it's like, other than the pink streaks and a little bit of blue, what's to differentiate it from the other carbon cars that we see out there.

Yeah, good point. Let me see if I can bring up some images that folks watching can take a look. And for those of you listening, we'll talk a little bit more about this in further detail as we take a look at this car.Bear.

With me, folks.The other thing I want to know is, Tim, with the Alpine car, is that the real race car, or is that just a car with the paint? Because nobody reveals the real car before testing, do they?

All right. Let me know if you can see that.

Yeah, I can see that perfectly.

Perfect. Okay, so this is the race car that's going to hit the track at testing. And throughout the livery launches that we've seen so far, I mean, I traveled to New York for the Williams on Monday, and that was just livery, straight up livery. This is livery and the race car itself, what it looks like. And you can see from this design that Adam It looks a hell of a lot like the RV-19.

Sure does, Tim. Now, okay, for anybody that doesn't pay close enough attention to that stuff, what parts of it are you referring to? Let's talk about this. So you've got Let's talk sidepods, because that's been a big thing, sidepods. What do we got there?

Perfect example. They have this downwash section, and it's hard to see from this photo, but essentially, it's like a giant gully that funnels air towards the back of the car, the diffuser, the floor. And on top of all that, you've got different suspension settings at the front. It's hard to see from this image. But again, this thing just resembles examples a lot of what the RB-19 looked like. I'll see if I can grab another image on here that I was able to get from the team, and we can take a closer look at some of it, maybe this overhead shot here that I have, it's like looking down onto the car. I'll see here if we can zoom in a bit. There we go. That'll work. All right. Sorry, folks. There we go. Okay. So again, you see how I was talking about the sidepods? You have that gully?

Yeah, it looks like a riverbed.

It looks like a riverbed. It's like a bathtub. Yeah, that's a good example. That's a good example. So it just funnels there towards the rear of the car, back towards the suspension and everything. Back there, you've got the diffuser, and that's also obviously part of the floor as well. Now, this is probably not the floor that they'll be using come the first race of the season. This is probably just They're not going to show us everything, but this is probably pretty close to it. Then the front as well. The front wing has also been redesigned at the same time as well. Then a lot of this looks just like It's trying to stay on a stable platform where you have anti-dive and anti-lift, and that's something that the RB 19 was just so good with. What I mean by that is the front of the car dives forward because you have all of this momentum and force coming from behind, and that weight transfer has to go somewhere. So if you're braking, the weight transfer is going to head to the front of the car. And if there's a way that you can control how much the car dives, so how much does the rear lift up and how much does the weight get transferred onto the front, if you can control that, that's a heck of a thing, because then you can control the whole weight balance throughout the entire cornering phase because the weight would then have to transfer to rear of the car as you're starting to accelerate or pick up speed.

And so, yeah, a lot of this stuff, Adam, is just... A lot of these cars, I think, are just going to start converging with the RB-19 and what it did last season.

And who can Claim them. The one thing I always have with a Renault or an Alpine, whatever brand you want to call it, is the reliability going to be there. As part of the last Fernando Alonso season, and then And last year with Esteban O'Khan and Pierre Gasly, when they didn't run into each other, I think it was the Canadian Grand Prix, I think they were going for a 6-7 finish there, which would have been great for them, would have jumped them in the standings. Alpine has had a couple of really disappointing years based on where they thought they were going to be. Can they figure out the issues with the power unit itself? Can they keep themselves in the race for the entire 50 or 60 laps, depending on the track? Because for me, they've always They've always had the cornering. They've always had most of the speed that you need to compete, at least be the top of the midfield, but you never, ever see them not make unforeced errors. That's been a thing for a long, long time, even When Ricardo was there, it's an unforeced error team, a team where you're like, Why don't you have this sorted out?

Bad pit stop here or there, bad strategy here or there, bad tire selection here or there. I know that it's a bit of a complicated company behind the scenes. They are There's another factual politic. They're run by a state-sponsored car company, so there's a lot of cooks in the kitchen. But Tim, do you really think at some point that this team can rise to its own expectations?

It's going to be tough, Adam. I think you made a good point when you say so many cooks in the kitchen, too many cooks in the kitchen, because at the end of the day, that's just what it feels like. The same thing when we take a look at how Alpine run their operation. You've got a car manufacturing plant for the race car in the UK, and then you've got an engine manufacturing plant that's over in France, and that's for the power unit that goes into the race car. Now, ideally, you would like to have those two things as close as possible. You would like to have them on campus if you can do that. The reason for that is, one, it's time. With Formula One, time is Everything. It's paramount. It's crucial. You need to get things done as fast as possible. That is even getting new parts to the car. On the other side of that as well, which adds another level to this, is the fact that you can have straight communication with your PU builders and your aerodynamicists and your composite, and they can all get together really quickly, have a quick conversation as to what are the diameters, what are the dimensions?

Let's see if we can fit this thing into the race car. Because sometimes what you'll get is you'll get miscommunication, and a car may be out of its window for how big it can handle an engine. That does happen in F1. The thing is that when they put these cowlings on the back, so when they put the engine cover on the back of the race car, it's like glued to the engine. It's like it's a cling wrapped around this engine. It's not like it's open and there's lots of air flowing through it and there's lots of room. There's no room, none, none whatsoever. The cowling is literally sucked on top of the engine, and you have to make sure that every millimeter is accounted for. And so the easiest way to get that done is to have everything under one roof and have everything on site and make it easy to communicate. Without being, it's a little more difficult. That's a bit more of a challenge.

Forget just England and France in terms of location. You got an English and French language barrier there, too, right? I don't know why they have it. I know that there's a lot of expertise in England about race cars, and there's a huge history. There's also a huge history in France. But it doesn't make sense to me, Tim, that they have that because from what you read sometimes, the English and the French teams don't really communicate all that well. They don't get along.

Yeah, apparently. I've read I've read similar statements that say that there isn't great communication between the two factories, and that is something that everyone is working towards to try and get there to be a little more harmony between both camps. I just think if you're going to have a race team, you're going to own a race team, you've got to put everything under one roof. You got to have everything close to campus. I mean, look at... So for McLaren is a We talk about their wind tunnel as nauseam on this podcast, but it's a great example of trying to get something under your own roof to help with time, consistency, and getting parts of the car. Instead of shipping something all the way out to Cologne, out in Germany, and then bringing it all the way back, now they've got something under their roof, which is going to help them tremendously in this 2024 season. It's going to be so crucial for them to have that. Looking for Ferrari, same thing. They've got everything under one roof. It just makes more sense. I think for Aston Martin, I think eventually that could be something that happens there, too.

Could have everything under one roof with Honda coming in, coming to the team in 2026. Can they build a factory, small little power unit factory for Honda on site? I think they have the room for it. Now, whether or not those conversations have happened with Aston Martin and Honda remains to be seen. But that's something that I think the team would greatly appreciate having on site just to make things that much more easier. It's an interesting thing, Adam. When you take a look at how these teams come around and then you look at how it boils down to that reliability factor.

What do you know about Bruno Famine? Sorry, go ahead.

Bruno Famine. Yeah, no, it's all good. Bruno Famine.

So he's now the- He's now the... By the way, he self announced himself, which is as the team principal, which is wild. Don't think I've ever seen that before, but- I've never seen that before, man.

I've never seen that. So for Bruno Famine, when Obmar Safnar got let go just before the Belgian Grand Prix last year. Bruno Famine came in as a bit of an intern team principal, but he was also running Other parts of the Alpine Motorsports division. So he had a lot on his plate, this guy. He was doing a lot, too. Now, him announcing himself as the team principal for this team, now, is that going to be a good thing? I don't know. I think it could be a bit of a challenge. I still think they made a mistake by letting Atmar go. I know they wanted to fast track everything. I know that I like what he was saying was, Hey, this is going to take a few years, which it will. It's Formula One, always does. I don't think they wanted to hear that. They brought somebody else in who gave them what they wanted to hear. Now, whether or not they're going to be competitive this season, we'll know more in a few weeks time when we get to Berraine. But I don't know, man, I think it might be a little difficult for them.

Last year, when Aston Martin had a great car to kick off the year, I remember texting back and forth with you. You were like, Watch out for Aston Martin. This is going to be crazy. I was like, no way. They were terrible last year. There's no way they make a jump like that. And now you look at them and you're like, that is solidly a mid-pack team. And if they finish any less than fifth, it's going to be disappointing. One thing I will say about Alpine is that both of those drivers are going to be racing their butts off this year because that Mercedes seat is going to be tantalizing for them. And I think, obviously, the first couple of names that come up, well, Fernando Alonso. I think he probably stay at Aston Martin unless it was a crazy knock your socks off offer. Carlos Sides, there's the connections with Sauber and Audi that we think are going to happen. Both of the Sauber drivers are up after this year. In fact, most of the grid is up after this year. So Mercedes can do something bold. They're not going to put a young driver in there.

Albon seems to be the inside favorite, and rightfully so. He drove the wheels off that Williams car last year. It was amazing. And he's also the connection with James Vowels and all the other things there. If you are Esteban Occon, and you've been counted out basically your entire career, and I think he's a lot better. I think he, as a driver, is a lot better than his record or his points show. You see what he did with that Force India car a few years ago. I think he's a great driver. I think his brain farts per race are a little high, so he needs to figure that out. But Pierre Gasly, who, again, has a lot of brain farts, another driver that has tantalizing skill. There's a reason he's an Alpine. There's a reason that these guys are there making as much money as they are. That's a very, very well-funded team, as dysfunctional as they are. You got to think they're both thinking, Man, if I have a good year, I got a shot at Mercedes, and I want that.

Yeah, 100 %, man. You made a great point, especially with Esteban, not saying that Gasly is not worthy of a Mercedes seat. I think he is as well, because I think Gasly is extremely talented. I just think it's because of Esteban's connections with Mercedes and with Toto Wolf. What are those connections? That's a very close relationship. That is essentially Toto saving Esteban's career, allowing him to stay and keep himself in Formula One in a test and reserve driver type of a role, and then helping him make that transition into Alpine. That was extremely important. And Toto was a person behind the scenes who helped initiate some of that. I think that relationship is going to be crucial for Esteban as this season plays out because he's out of contract at the end of 2024. Esteban is going to be looking for either an extension with Alpine or if he's performing Well, then he's going to be taking a look at that seat at Mercedes, 100%. I asked Alex Albon about this on Monday when I was speaking with him at the Williams launch. To paraphrase, It is definitely something he would look at, no question.

But at his moment, his focus was mainly on trying to get Williams back up the grid and see how competitive they could be for But you could just tell that that Mercedes seat would be something he would truly cover it. It has to be when you're talking about a driver who was promoted into F1, promoted to the big team too early, let's be honest. Yeah, absolutely. Then almost spit out the ass end of F1 and then managed to just cling on for dear life, managed to get himself back into an F1 seat car, and a very difficult F1 car to drive, mind you, and then continue to pump in some really impressive performances last season. If he can bring that level of driving back in 2024, I would argue he would probably be the favorite for that seat, Adam, when we get deep into this season.

Well, and Tim, everybody counts Williams out because it's been a long time since they were a player. I think it was like total Wolf was invested in the team the last time they were winning races, and Valtry Botas was this young rookie. People forget that that's how long ago it's been. But this is a championship-winning team in any other decade. And the other decade in Formula One, Williams were always a player, and they were a very, very good team most of the time. This last decade has been completely opposite of what the Williams brand was coming into this decade. And so what I'm curious about with Alex Albon is, he is... Obviously, Logan Sargent is there. The money is there behind Logan Sargent to keep him there as well. Let's be honest, his dad's a billionaire. There is sponsor money there. And I'm not saying he's a paid driver, but Alex Alvon is clearly the number one, and he's the leader. And if you are Alex Alvon, you got a great relationship with James Valls, who has a great relationship with Total Wolf and the Mercedes partnership there that's obvious. Part of me wonders, okay, so Mercedes, it might be a works team, but if Williams continues to climb, I'm the number one guy here.

Yeah, great point. And I'm squarely the number one. If he goes to Mercedes and it doesn't work after a couple of years, he's gone, right? George is the number one at Mercedes, and you got to take that from George. If you're Alex, you're comfortable. They are building this car for you. This is for Alex Albon. Logan, Sergeant, it's nice that you're here, but we're building this for Alex. And if we can just get it to turn, it goes fast. If we can get it to turn, we might be in the top three sometimes, right? We might even be on a podium sometimes. We might grab a pole position on a fast course like a Monza or a Red Bull ring. And now, grabbing a pole position is aggressive for Williams at this point. But based on the change that we saw, 10th to seventh, that's an enormous jump. If If you can get this car, if it can shift better, if it can move side to side better, if you can corner a little bit hard to get a couple of tents back on those corners, I look at Albon and I go, Man, would you leave that, Tim?

And Tim, you're the driver here, so you tell me, would you leave that setup to take the risk at Mercedes when you don't have the resume? I understand Lewis leaving. He's got the resume. He's won championships. He's good. But if they build this team around you and you go, and for whatever reason, Mercedes has a down year or you have a down year, it's painful. You'll never get that back again.

Yeah, that's a great point, man. I totally agree with what you're saying. I think as a driver, when I take a look at what's my future in the sport and where can I go to be competitive, but then also have a long-lasting career. And man, it's really tough because as a driver, you always want to go somewhere where you're going to be competitive, and you're not really thinking about contracts and whatever, because in your mind, you're thinking that, Hey, I'm going to go here. I'm going to win. I'm going to be fine because I'm going to be winning or I'm going to be successful. But then sometimes you show up and you just get smacked in the face. The car is just not very good. It's built for somebody else. And Look at Ricardo with McLaren. Yeah, your back is really up against the wall at that point. If I'm going to stay somewhere and I'm going to stay at a place like a Williams, and we use them because I just came back from sitting down speaking face-to-face with James Vallss. A big thing for them is just getting internally the factory up to code in terms of having the newest and best equipment.

What James had to do to fight everybody, all the other teams, to get his CapEx, so his capital expenditures, raised so he could go and invest in new things. He was telling us a story. Now, I don't know the name of the piece of equipment, but essentially it helps them build parts for the car. And this piece of equipment that's at William's currently, he's like, It's as long as a motorhome. It's massive. He's like, Now, nowadays, the ones that we were working with that Mercedes, it's the size of your dinner table.

Wow. So this is old.

This is what we're talking about when it comes to the only thing really holding William's back, the team itself, is old equipment. They've got a great team principle in place. I really think that James is to do a great job with that team. This will be his second full year at the team. His first year is pretty remarkable. Everybody there loves the guy. They all work hard for him. He works hard. There are stories of him basically telling people who work in the Aero factory and trying to get a floor made for last year's car, being like, We're going to get this floor to Canada, and the guys are telling him, No, no chance. And he's like, We're going to get this floor to Canada, and I'm going to stay here late at night and work alongside with you so we can get this floor to Canada. That's the team principle that they've got, and that's a true story. Adam, I think for this team, Williams, the faster they can get new equipment coming into the door, the faster the car is going to be on the track. I think for this season coming up, man, I think they're going to be a good team.

I must say they're going to get podiums, but I think they're going to be good.

It's a team with legitimate ambitions. I look at Haas And I go, that's not a team with legitimate ambitions. They might be building for 26, but I don't know when... And if you look at Williams from two, three years ago, at the end of the Williams family, the beginning of the Dorlitz and capital purchase, that was a team with not legitimate ambitions. It felt like transition, build for something else, years away, blah, blah, blah. And the jump from 10th to seventh is a great jump. But if they can finish fifth this year, that's a bigger jump. And this is what I'm saying, right? When you drag yourself out of the basement, it's really hard to do. But the jumps become harder and harder the further up you move, because now you're up against Alpine. Now you're up against Aston Martin. Now you're up against, in theory, McLaren. Although I think McLaren is going to be faster this year than they were to start last year, which would put them much higher. So then you're into the true mid-pack, right? And can you compete with the Aston Martins? Can you compete with the Alpines on a week in, week out basis?

And do you have the driver lineup to actually go and take that? And I think the company that owns them, the whole reason they own them is because it's an investment, right? They want to make money. And it's not the year over year money that they want to make. They want to make asset value. So they don't care if Williams is profitable so much as they care that Williams doesn't lose a crazy amount of money and the brand name is worth more along with everybody else at the end of the year. That's what they're in this for.

They sold it-They're investing. And they're investing, though, Adam. That's such an important thing.

Well, and that's the thing. And I think that that really comes down to James. And James, to me, when you look at what Toto Wolf was at Williams and then what he was when he took over at Mercedes, brought him to Rosberg, Schumacher was there before him, I think, right? Did he bring in Schumacher?

No. At Williams?

At Mercedes.

Mercedes.

Schumacher- Schumacher was there before him, right?

Before... Okay, so when they turned to Mercedes for drivers, Schumacher and Vals was working there when They were brawn. Right. So long time.

Right. So I think my thinking is, Toto, Christian, that era of Otmar, those were the big next team principles, right? Even Even Matia Banotto, Fred Vasseur, those guys were all in the 2008, 2009. They were coming out of GP2, GP3. They're coming in. I think we're starting to see the next great generation of young team principals. And James is the head of that. I don't think so. Tim, you'd listen to me and think that I was a Williams fan. I'm just a fan of what James Vallis has done there. I'm a McLaren guy through and through, but I am I have a real soft spot for Williams because I love a come from behind story. Who doesn't? And again, it goes back to we're talking about the Mercedes extra seat. Albon has got... If he performs this year, let's say they get one podium, right? He finishes third. It's rainy. There's some weird thing that he locks in. And if you're him, are you not like, not only am I the number one driver at this team, I'm worth more to this team than I am at Mercedes. Let's say Mercedes would pay you 25 million a year.

You're probably worth 30 or 35 million at Williams, right? Because you lose that driver. Who do you have?

I mean, that's the thing. You've got some young drivers in your pipeline. It was interesting because I was actually talking to Logan and Alex both about being a rookie and coming into F1, and now Now we take a look at these drivers like Landell Norris and Charlotte Claire and Max Verstappen, and they're getting these huge extensions, something that they never thought possible back in their Formula 2 days of a driver getting an extension that long. Now they're sitting there saying that that's a part of this new breed and age of drivers that's starting to come into Formula One and teams really respecting the fact and holding onto the talent for as long as they can so they can build the team and build the car around their star drivers. If you just have a rookie just show up in Formula One, that is a hell of a way you're setting yourself back. It sucks for younger drivers who bust their ass in Formula Two to try and break into Formula 1. And F1 teams are like, We need experienced drivers who are in that 22 to 30 range because that's like, We're going to be That's going to be our window to mold and to make sure that they're going to have that experience with the younger drivers that are just coming in.

So it doesn't make sense to go and let Alex walk down to Mercedes. I mean, that offer would have to be pretty stellar, and then Williams is going to have to counter it. Because if I'm James Valls, I'm holding on to Alex Albon for dear life. I just would. I honestly would.

I think James Valls's results are directly related to Alex Albon. And so So at least on the track. And what does it say? I know Piastri had a really good start this year. He also had a great car, right? He had a great car towards the end. Terrible at the beginning. We all get it. Piastri might be a once in a generation guy who can step in and be a factor and finish second and third and fourth. That is usually not the case. Even George Russell, you look at... He was good at Williams, right? The car was terrible, but he put in great race results. Latifi pushed him a little harder, I think, than people give Latifi credit for. But it took George doing some stupid things, like trying to overtake Valtry Botas in that one spot, to get to the maturity level where he's ready for a Mercedes. And I feel like I don't think Williams wants to go through that with two drivers. I just don't.

No, I agree with you. I agree with you, man. If I'm James Valls, I wouldn't let Alex walk away. And then I would spend my time maybe making sure that I'm putting as much effort into Logan as I can because people crap on Logan a lot, but there is a really good racing driver in there. There really is. I think that the more experience gets, the more experience he gets, the better he's going to get. I think just in terms of, and I'm not making excuses for Logan here, but last season, he was getting old parts thrown onto the car. He wasn't even getting the new stuff that Alex was getting. So there was that disadvantage. And then, factor on top of all of that, he's a rookie, and he's got to come in and learn. And he took his lumps for sure. The second year, so this year that he's entering, this is a big year for him.

Massive.

He's got to do well here.

What can he do with some confidence? Logan Sargent. Listen, pay drivers are a thing. They're becoming a thing of the past in Formula One. There's just too many... The teams are making money now, right? They don't need. A lot of these teams don't need that. But I look at Logan Sargent and I think, okay, we know he's a good driver. We know there's capabilities there. We know now that Williams will probably have more money to spend because they had great results. So maybe he doesn't get the older parts. If Logan Sargent finishes, let's say his first five races are like 12th, ninth, 11th, 10th, and like an eighth, in no particular order, is he not absolutely flying at that point?

I would say so. I would say that's extremely competitive.

That's a competitive guy, right? That gets you some points. To me, you saw what happened with Piastri when he had a little bit of confidence. Man, Logan Sargent is a bit more tantalizing than people give him credit for.

I think so. Even how he found out. At the end of Abu Dhabi Grand Prix, so last year, He told me it was two days after that he found out that he was going to be back in Formula One for 2024. I mean, that would suck to go through the entire year not knowing what your future looks like. And if you're even going to be a race car driver in 2024, which is a month, which at that point was less than a month away. So it's just like that is extremely unnerving. I think if he I think for him, it's got to be learn as much as possible, get off on the right foot, be consistent, be strong with what you're doing, and just chip away at it. And so by the time you get midseason, the team is questioning whether or not to give you a longer term deal. You want to push them to make them question that. And that's what Logan has to do. He's got to do that.

So, Tim, tell me this. I know we've I got sidetracked here, but that's what podcast is for. It's great. Before we wrap, I want to do a little bit on a-We got to do Anegrity.

Yeah, we got to talk about Anegrity.

And really, the story has been out there, and so many stories have superseded it. Like the Lewis Hamilton news, just knocked it right off the top here. But for anybody that is just catching up on the Andretti thing, obviously, the Formula One teams said no, which we all know. There was some note about an email that the Formula One team said that they sent, and the Andretti team says, We didn't get it or ended up in our junk folder or something. There was an invitation. I want to talk about the significance of that. And I also want to talk about the significance of the FIA's statement immediately after the Andretti conversation, because the FIA said, We've noted this, and we're going to revisit. So let's talk about the last email, why that's a big deal. And then let's talk about the FIA's role in this, because, Tim, I don't think this Andretti conversation is over by any stretch, and it shouldn't be.

It is a very complex conversation, and there's so much that goes into all of it, Adam. I've made a couple of notes just so folks would have a reference. If we were to go back a few years, Muhammad bin Solam, who's the President of the FIA, opened up what's called a... Gosh. It is called an expression of interest. So essentially, if you think you can put together a Formula One team, bring it in, and have everything capable and ready to go, we'll take a look at you for a possibility of getting an 11th and a 12th team onto the grid. Technically, there is room for 20 26 cars, not in every paddock, but there is room for 26 cars. This is the FIA and Muhammad bin Sultiam in another topic altogether. Of just, I think, showing and asserting the FIA as the custodians of the sport, just the ones who look after everything. That's a separate argument and debate and internal politics is bubbling under the surface between F1 and the FIA. So he opens up this expression of interesting. And Dretti, obviously, puts in their submission The FIA do diligence, if I can speak properly, and essentially grants Andretti allowance, basically saying, You're approved to come onto the grid with an 11th team.

But F1, there's a commercial... Are the commercial rights holders, obviously, but there is the commercial aspect to all of it, and that is something that they need to talk to Formula One about. It's really weird because in the statement that We got on January 31st, the one that F1 sent to me, there are a few general lines from this statement that I question. One of them is 0.8, Our assessment process has established that the presence of an 11th team would not in and of itself provide value to the Championship. That's essentially saying that having Andretti here is not going to provide any value to our Championship So you're telling me that the Andretti name, there is no value in the Andretti name?

I can't do that right now. How many F1 Championships did Mario Andretti win?

Yeah, You won- It's like two or three? F1 Championship. I mean, let's look it up. I mean, for any- That's ridiculous. The Andretti name is legendary in motor sports. Legendary, right? Yes. Both father and son have won championships, have won massive races, and are that staple sports name in America, especially motor sports. Michael Andretti is huge in Canada just because of his dominance at the Toronto Indy. That guy won that race like it was nobody's business. I think for the name itself, it brings a crop ton of value. You've got Mario Andretti, who's won a Formula One Championship, Audi car, raced in Champ car, Indy 500, raced in that. They've been all over that sport. They've been all over other sports now. They're in Formula E, Extreme E. The list goes on.

I also want to say, Tim, this is a real American team. Haas tried to build themselves as that, but it hasn't really worked out, especially wearing the Russian colors a couple of years ago. I know that was for sponsorship reasons, but all the same. You've got Cadillac, great name. You've got Andretti, great name. And you got a sport that's owned by Liberty Media, which is an American company. Listen, to me, this comes down to the anti-dilution fee. To me, this comes down to we want more money than that. And if you're Liberty Media, you need an American team that's competitive. Haas is just not going to be competitive unless Jean somehow changes his view on things and the way he wants a car to be done. So you got to bring more teams in. And I think you got to bring... The next two teams should be American teams. It should be Andretti plus whoever else. To really reach the American audience, you need an American team. You need the 400 million people that live in the United States to get behind it, don't you? 100 %, man. You're right, Adam. If it's 300 million to get in And they're saying, Listen, franchise values have skyrocketed in this sport when we wrote it.

300 million was a lot. Now it's not. Now, McLaren is 750. Mercedes is at a million. Ferrari is at, what do they speculate, seven billion the other day with Lewis Hamilton coming on board? Fine. It's a billion dollars. They can find that. Nhl franchise, billion dollars. Formula One franchise, billion dollars. Fine. It's money.

So it's interesting that you said, so I can explain the The anti-dilution to those who may not know what we're talking about. So if you go back to 2020, Formula One, because of the pandemic, is just a lot of teams just clinging to life. We would have probably could have lost at least two Formula One teams. Every F1 team has to sign up to what's called a Concord Agreement. Inside that Concord Agreement are commercial things that everyone needs to adhere There's a whole bunch of other stuff that's in it as well, making sure that you're going to be on the grid, you have to have a team in there, et cetera. But one of the important things that was in there was for an anti-dilution fee. So in case a new team were to come into Formula One. That fee was 200 million. So when we look at when Andredi got denied, Andretti got denied for 2025, 2026, and I think if they're able to convince Cadillac to be a OEM coming into Formula One, building engines, be a works team, then 2028 would be in the cards because that's what Cadillac had put out in their statement, saying that 2028 was the year that they wanted to build an engine for Formula One.

But again, no firm action taken there. But the anti-dilution fee is Important because it adds to the team's total prize fund. So the constructors from first to 10th place, there's a payout at the end of the year. First place gets the most, 10th place gets the least. You bring in an 11th team, you're going to water that pie down. 200 million is not going to cut it anymore because of the amount of money that F1 generates it brings in, the value of the sport has gone up. So this Concord Agreement, it ends at the end of 2025, which means a new one needs to be put in place for 2026. I guarantee you the anti-dilution fee for 2026 is going to be like 2X or 3X, whatever it's going to be, it's going to be like you said, it's close to a billion dollars, probably. And look, that's fine. I get it. But if that's the direction you're headed in, why would you deny them for 2026?

Yeah, don't understand that one. I don't think this one's over, Tim. So we'll leave it at But I do think this is not over. And I think Ed Dretti is going to be... I'm sure by the end of this year, we're pretty close to an Ed Dretti Formula One marriage. It's going to happen.

I hope so, man. I think F1 needs another team for sure. It would be a shame if they don't get on, to be honest with you. I think they'd really be shooting themselves in the foot because of a lot of the things that you said when it comes to the American audience. The American audience would love to see Andretti on the start-finish line.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I hope it happens while Mario is still able to enjoy it because I think he deserves it more than anybody.

100%. Adam, thanks very much for taking the time to do this. Really appreciate it. You've been watching Nailing... Well, you've also been listening to Nailing the Apex. If you want more past episodes, you can get them on YouTube. You can also listen to us wherever you get your podcast. I'm Tim Horeani. You can get me on social media @timhoreani, and we'll be back next week with more NTA. Talk to you all later.