Walking and talking and clambering on a stool never gets any easier at this time in the morning. Sir Robert, it's good to see you. Thanks for taking the time to join us. Thanks for joining us. Thank you, Kay. Talk to me about what happened yesterday in the House of Commons, because it's really complicated for people to understand.

Yeah, well, the lords had been chewing over the bill, the safety of Rwanda Bill. It's now came back to the Commons last night to look at some of the amendments they made. There were 10 amendments that were all thrown out by the Commons. The lords will now have another look at it. I I think, tomorrow. And this is what we call the 'ping pong' part, a bit like table tennis, where ultimately this bill will be decided. And I think the government's aim is to get this bill through before Easter so they can get on with the plan.

So what's achieved by all this ping-pong What's the law doing?

Well, this is all about the real detail of legislation. That's what MPs and members of the lords are there to do. They're there to look carefully at the draft law and make sure that it is in as good a position as possible. That's scrutiny. That's what our parliamentary democracy is all about. That's what we were doing. You can override them, can't you? Well, of course we can, because they're not an elected chamber, and the Commons is. And those wars, those battles were fought in the last century. They were won very decisively by the Commons, and the Commons view will prevail. So what's your view? Well, last night, I took a view that I thought that some of the Lord's amendments were right. I supported them in defiance of my own government. Never an easy thing to do. I think now that We've got through this first stage. I think the laws would probably be best advised not to push the matter too aggressively because this is an elected government. It needs to get on with its plan. I've always supported the principle of using and working with other countries to support the challenge of illegal migration.

We've just got to get the detail right. That's what I was doing last night, just trying to get the detail absolutely right.

What are the ramifications for you going against your own government?

Well, look, it's never an easy position. I am a backbencher, although I absolutely support the government on the economy and all the big issues, and indeed, I support them on the principle of this policy. I am freer than perhaps my colleagues in the government to express my view, and that's what I do. I think you know, Kay, my background is as a lawyer, I bring that expertise and that long career into politics in Parliament, and that's what I thought I was doing yesterday.

So what are you so upset about? Why did you feel that you couldn't vote with your government?

Well, I want to make sure that after that agreement was reached with Rwanda late last year for the Rwandans, in effect, to tighten up their procedures to make sure they were fair and water tight legally, that that is done. So that any law that we pass, making a presumption or deeming Rwanda to be a safe country actually is matched by the reality of what's happening there on the ground. There are certain measures that Rwanda have agreed to carry through. They've passed their the act into law now there. But I think rather than creating some legal fiction, we need to make sure that the law and the reality of the situation are in tandem.

Do you think it's a safe country to send people to?

I think that Rwanda is absolutely a country where you can send people to. I think it would be safe within the definitions that we use in immigration law. I think rather than debating about Rwanda's attitude to civil rights, we should be looking at their obligations under the treaty agreement they reached last year and making sure that those are carried out so that absolutely the reality is fitting where we are with the law.

You're quite right to say that you were previously lawyer, also Justice Secretary as well. Is it really appropriate that a government should go change the law in order to go against the courts?

Well, I think government and parliament is entitled to change the law, even law passed by the Supreme Court. That's been a long established precedent. I think the issue here, Kay, was where you're legislating in a position where, in effect, you're just saying a place is safe for the purposes of the law without having carried through all the obligations that Rwanda said it was going to do after that Supreme Court hearing. That's what their Lordship's were concerned about. That's what I've been concerned about throughout this bill, and I was fracting that concern in my vote last night.

When will the planes go, do you think?

Well, I think they can go later this year. I think that if this bill- How does it set the spring? Well, okay, the The Civil Service defined the spring as late as June the 20th. So that gives him- So do you think it's before the June the 20th? Well, it gives him a bit of leeway. I think it could very much happen. I think if this bill now is settled this week, then it becomes law before Easter, and there's no reason then why the government can't get on with making those arrangements.

So Craig Oliver, who, as you know, used to guide David Cameron when he was in number 10, said it won't make a jot of difference whether the planes go or not. You've lost this one.

Well, look, I've always said that this policy was a subset of a subset. There are so many different aspects to tackling illegal migration. I think the Prime Minister made big progress when he had that deal with Albania. We saw the numbers dropped dramatically by 90%. That led to a reduction in small boats last year, which was a reduction of a third. This is complex and difficult stuff. But I think if the government carry this approach on all fronts, including the Rwanda policy, then we will continue to see a difference being made to this vile trade.

What's the mood of the party at the moment?

Well, certainly my mood is to stay calm, focus on the issues that matter to my residents and carry on.

But what are you picking up from your colleagues?

Well, I'm not picking up phone calls or vibes via text that would accord with some of the stories we saw in the Sunday newspapers, Kay, to be honest. I think the mood, certainly amongst colleagues I'm speaking to, is one of exasperation about any such their machinations, if they're going on at all. I think the vast majority of colleagues are concentrating with their job, representing their constituents and supporting the Prime Minister.

Although we're hearing some 40 Conservatives have submitted letters of no confidence in Rishisunab.

Well, only Sir Graham braided, the chairman of the 22, has the numbers, Kay. I don't know.

That were to be the case. That would be shocking.

Well, look, I think that the time for sending letters has long passed. If it ever arose, frankly. We've had leadership elections. I don't think the public is interested in the conservative Party naval gazing what the public expect, and what they're getting from the Prime Minister and from the vast majority of Conservatives colleagues is an outward-facing public-focused approach on issues like the economy, on health, on immigration, that matter to the people who send us to Westminster. If we get that focus right, then we can win.

What would you say to your colleagues who are trying to unsearch the Prime Minister?

I would say that to try and do that in an election year would be an act of folly. Let's keep calm and carry on. We're turning the corner on the economy. Inflation is coming down, growth is coming back. We're seeing those mortgage rates not rising as steeply as we feared. That's all.

We have to wait till Thursday to see what happens.

Well, I agree with that, Kay, and that's why I don't pretend we're out of the woods. I share the anxieties of people who I represent about these things. These things matter. That's what colleagues, I think, need to focus on. I think they Let's look at what people care about rather than worrying about the prattle of Westminster.

What do you think of the early release of prisoners this spring due to overcrowding?

Well, look, I think it's the duty of government to make sure that we are all safe. I think our prison system is one of our central public services. I fought long battles to make sure that more money came into our system and I achieved some success in that. I've long felt, Kay, that unlike other services like health and Education, education, vital though they are to the majority of us, the hidden services like prisons often don't get the attention they deserve. I think that it's incumbent upon government to make sure that they fully fund prison expansion, that they find the places so that courts can send criminals to prison, and that we're not in a position where we're forced to release people early. I fully support the Justice Secretary in his attempts to make sure that that is kept to a minimum.

Have you seen you're in the Guardian today?

Oh, am I? Well, I'm honored, Kay. Shall I tell you why? Well, go for it.

Because you're a member of the Garrick Club, and 1,500 men are members of the Garrick Club. No women, members of the Garrick Club, and it gives people like you an unfair advantage when it comes to hobnobbing with other members of Parliament, or indeed, judges and the like.

Okay, I'm not going to say what goes on in private members clubs, but I will I will say that the idea you go there to try and get influence or to network, I think the word is, is, I think, a misunderstanding of what our social place is, where you should be going to talk about the nice things of life, whether it's sport, whether it's the theater, whether it's the arts. It's a club very much founded in that tradition.

So you never do business there? Well, it's not.

And in fact, you're told you shouldn't do business in that club. Doesn't mean you don't. Well, I go and have fun there when I can and relax when I can, which isn't as often as I would like. And can I say-What does fun mean for you? Well, it means just talking about the things I love. You're almost smiling. But because I'm thinking about music, I'm thinking about the theater, I'm thinking about sports, all the things that I enjoy. And to do that in nice surroundings is wonderful.

Should women be allowed to join?

Well, I think so. And it's important that we see women in that place. We have great actresses on the stage, like Dame Maggie Smith and other people.

I heard you describe it as a stuffy version of Soho House.

Well, it's more old fashioned. You have to wear a tie for most of the time, and I think those standards are important. But I view that place as a place to unwind and relax, not a place to try and run the so-called British establishment. That would be, I think, an absolute negation of the function of such places. So there.

It's always great to see you, Sir Robert. Thank you very much indeed for joining us on the program this morning.