We're going to get more now on our top story this morning. An NHS consultant is warning there could be another big scandal like the recent Post Office Horizon one, if changes aren't made to the law on whistleblowing. Well, let's get the view now of conservative MP Mary Robinson. She's Chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group for Whistleblowing. Very good to talk to you this morning, Mary Robinson. Thanks so much for talking to us. First of all, I'll come on to what you're pushing to change in a moment. But first, what do you make of these warnings The sense that we are guaranteeing, in the words of this NHS consultant, another big scandal, not just in hospitals, but in any organizations, unless we give more protection to whistleblowers. Do you agree?

Good morning, Anne. Thank you so much for to bring me on to talk about this really important issue today. It's really sobering to hear these comments because it does actually highlight what is going on and the real possibilities that there could be more scandals. We heard only this week from the outgoing Health Ombudsman speaking of hospitals burying evidence of poor care in a cover-up culture. We know from the National Guardian who has oversighted the speaking up regime within hospitals that they are still trying to address the barriers of fear and futility which are preventing people from speaking up. Unless we address this, it's very difficult to think that the outcomes will change because we need to change the law in order to get to a place where we'll change what happens in hospitals and in other organizations where, frankly, reputational damage and fear of reputational damage is being put ahead of whistleblowers and to patient safety.

You say you want to change in the law, and you are bringing forward a private members bill, aren't you? It gets its second reading today. Some might say whistleblowing is already protected under the law, under the Public Interest Disclosure Act. Why do we need more changes?

Well, the Public Interest Disclosure Act was brought forward over 25 years ago. It also was a private members bill. It needs to be changed because we're seeing that the bill as intended then is not operating well now. It's failing. It was landmark, actually, at the time. It was used as a template and rolled out across other countries around the globe. We know it was good in practice when it was first introduced, but it's not working now because its scope is very narrow. It's narrow around workers. We've also seen that it actually only comes into operation when people find themselves in front of an employment tribunal. They're then in a David and Goliath situation against the organization which is fighting their claims of unfair dismissal, the whistleblowing issue that was raised in the first place doesn't actually get discussed or investigated at that point. We've got to change this. My bill aims to change the culture within organizations, to drive cultural change through a change in legislation, to ensure that the culture in organizations is one that protects whistleblowers, that actually encourages speaking out, and the office of the whistleblower, which it intends to set up, will be there to work with regulators to give advice and help to whistleblowers to set standards and to monitor them and to make sure that the operation of our whistleblowing framework really works for people.

Unless we get this change, we're all going to see more of these instances because it's inevitable. If you don't bring about change in something that's failing, then you'll continue to have the outcomes that we would expect.

Isn't one of the problems, though, that setting up an independent Office of the Whistleblower would be expensive, and we know how stretched government budgets are.

Well, I'd argue that actually this will pay for itself in the long run, because what are we talking about here? We're talking about whistleblowers who aren't being aren't being listened to. The outcome of that is that people suffer. We hear about baby deaths, we hear about terrible things happening in hospitals, but also within other organizations, and whistleblowers aren't listened to. There's a cost to all of that. My argument would be, if we change the culture within organizations, then we won't be talking about whistleblowers. We'll be speaking about an open, transparent culture where people feel valued, where they're respected, where whistleblowers We aren't talked about as being whistleblowers, but good employees, good citizens who speak up in the confidence that they know they'll be valued, they'll be heard, they'll be respected, and they'll be protected.

The government has said that it's reviewing the current legislation on whistleblowing, hasn't it? They were due to come to some conclusion last autumn. That's not happened yet. Have you got insight into what the holdup is?

I'm delighted that they undertook this review. It was important, but we looked at the legislation that we have and investigated the reasons that it wasn't working and look for avenues for change. I've had a lot of conversations with ministers, with government, trying to work with them to affect the change that I know that we need. It's fully backed by the All-Party Parliamentary Group, which is the Office of the Whistleblower and a Whistleblowing Bill. I don't know the reasons behind any delays as such, but I do know that it's right that they investigated and conducted a thorough review, because I wouldn't want to say a rush to review was put through just for timings, but it's time that we heard now what the outcome is of the review. From there, policy will be able to be formulated and we'll get the change that we need. I'm having positive conversations. I'm really trying to drive forward this change because in my view and view of the the All-Party Parliamentary Group, this is the change that we need. It's really welcome to me to hear that the change is supported by so many people who have experience of being whistleblowers and know that we need to change the culture within the organizations in order to protect people.

Okay, and so briefly, you say that you've got lots of people supporting you. How confident are you that your private members bill will become law?

It's very difficult to be confident about a private members bill, and we know that there are a lot of other bills in consideration. I'm pressing very hard and having good conversations with government. When it was heard, actually, another member of our... I brought this bill forward two years ago and last year, another member of the Old Party Parliamentary Group brought it forward in the laws. It had really good support there. I'm hopeful that if we can actually make time for this legislation, that it will be supported in the House of Commons and it will get support in the House of Laws. That's crucial to ensure that we get legislation onto the statute book and we start addressing these issues in our whistleblowing legislation and protecting people, driving a culture of change within our organization, and unveiling the culture of cover-up that is causing so many of these issues.

Okay, well, Mary Robinson, really interesting to talk to you this morning. Thanks very much indeed.

My pleasure.