This week in Brownstown Township, Michigan, a person seems to suddenly become unhinged, saying and doing some very odd things, including murder. Welcome to small town murder.
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to small town murder. Jim. Yeah, indeed, and welcome, first of all. My name is James Patrick Alabaman, my co-host Jimmy Listman. Yes. And welcome to Episode two hundred is excited. I want to go back on Episode two hundred, which is that's pretty cool. I got to say, it's awesome. We're happy. Thank you for hanging with us for so long. You guys have been here the entire two hundred episodes.
Wow. Amazing. If this is your first episode. Amazing too. Happy to have you on board. We have a crazy case as usual today. We're going to go up to Michigan, which is nice. We always have fun in those in our first episode. No, no, we had the first was there a fourth was menacing domestique. Yeah. So we've done a few Michigan's. They're always weird. We like that. Michigan, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois.
Real Midwest. Yeah, Iowa, that whole area. Man you guys have some good murders out there. Everybody, I've got to tell you, you're losing your minds. And it's interesting to see in front of them the crazy ones you really are. So before we get into it this week. Yes. Thank you for being here for two hundred episodes. It's episode two hundred. So if you haven't done it yet, Apple podcast, that purple icon.
As long as it's been two hundred episodes. You know what? I was going to wait a while. So much time figure after two hundred episodes. What the heck. I'll give it to them.
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We did listen to a cold case DNA. Why case it was crazy. Check that out. Also listen to P.S. I hate this movie because I had to watch Twilight to make that. And as you can imagine, I was not thrilled.
I don't know that I would do it. I lost. I can't imagine I lost my mind several times both during the recording on the watching. So that's all fine. PADDISON Terrific. That sounds terrible. So also Patreon, we have so much bonus stuff and you need to have it because it's really good. Get on patrie, on patrie, on dotcom slash crime and sports. The last one we put out a couple of days ago was just kind of a history of Thanksgiving Day murders.
A lot. It was. So it was a crazy happens. You need to hear that. I mean, it's awesome. It's surprising. It's surprising is I really was surprised. But there's so many of them and it's kind of through history. Some of them are real old. So they're just goofy as can be. And it's a lot. So check that out.
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Crime and sports at Gmail dot com disclaimer quickly. Yeah, it's a comedy show. It is. It is. Stories are real.
Yeah, I think I know. How hard would it be to write these stories? It'd be ridiculous.
So yeah, it would be like just a Mad Libs. It's hard enough to write it all down. Right. Just what happened. Yeah. If I had to make it up it'd be crazy. So they're all real. Nothing's embellished for comedic effect, but crazy things happen around murders. That's a wild decision.
It is. Let's kill that person. There's some funny stuff happening there.
So it's just wild. But we go out of our way to do is we try not to make fun of the victims or the victim's family because we're assholes at it, but we're not scum is.
That's how it works. And if you think that sounds awesome, we're going to have a good time. If you don't think true crime and comedy should ever go together, then maybe we're not for you. You never know. Listen, though, give it a shot, because I don't think it's probably what you think it is. But if not, then we get it. Don't complain later. Right? We warned you.
Yeah, but for everybody else that wants to hear a crazy story for the two hundredth time, that's by the way, the next few episodes are insane.
The calendar is wild right now. So lock in and stay locked in and shout, shut up and give me murder.
Let's do this, Jimmy. All right. Let's go on a trip. Yeah, let's do it. Another trip, our two hundredth trip. We are going to Brownstown Township, Michigan, a lot of town. Why would you do that? Brownstown, not Brownes ten. Right. Brownstown Township. And in the middle of that, it's sometimes called Brownstown Charter Township. They stick that in there sometimes. So to make it more complicated, sometimes they just call it Brownstown, sometimes Brownstown Township, sometimes the whole enchilada.
Go with the charter and there as well. Up in Michigan, this is southeastern Michigan. Suburban Detroit is what this says, it's about a half hour to downtown Detroit in the burbs, 45 minutes over to Ann Arbor. I want to go somewhere else. That's kind of civilization for the colleges, right? Yeah, yeah. And then two hours and 10 minutes to Nashville, Michigan, which was episode one.
Sixty one, Mike, our last Michigan episode paying attention, apparently Nashville, Nashville, Michigan. We were on March 4th, which I was a body in a ditch on the side of the road, which I don't blame me for not remembering because March 4th feels like, I don't know, nineteen forty one. It might as well be. How crazy. That's another.
I saw a picture from Thanksgiving because Facebook likes to remind you every year. Wow. And I was like, oh that doesn't seem like that long ago. Then I started thinking it seems like fucking six years ago.
Yeah we did. It's wow. Yeah. It's it's crazy honestly. So this year has been so long. It's been a bit of a long year.
This is in Wayne County, Michigan, like I said, where Detroit is the same county area code seven three four. It is thirty square miles. So a big area. There's a lot of little tiny little townships in here, little zip codes under this umbrella. Michigan works weird the way they do their towns. And so the motto here, they have a motto, quote, where the future looks brighter.
OK, it's awfully. Yeah, it's optimistically. Yeah.
And there's an addendum to that though. There's a there's a postscript that is the smog clears. Well, it's there's a postscript where comes back every once in a while. It's where the future looks brighter and so does the water because it's probably radioactive. So seriously, don't drink, don't give that to your kids. So those are headlights. Get out of that.
This isn't that exactly. That's not great. So I'm sure that the we don't want anybody's water quality.
Now, that's awful. Michigan, have they figured it out yet? I don't think it's that good. I've never I haven't heard it on an update on them fixing.
And you still can't drive on their roads either. Right now, their roads are still limited.
You got to bring like a grappling hook and like a winch to your you've rappel you have to pull people out of potholes sometimes that are very, very big. It's unbelievable to see an old lady's hand waving. It's really help her. She fell in the pothole. She's got a devil in there. It's all car. It's a seventy eight Buick.
It's huge. I don't know. She's standing on the roof of it. I barely see her. And it's very deep voices. It's really baffling stuff. And so prior to the time it was a township, the area was involved in the War of 1812 actually. So dates back a long time. People have been here for a while because it's right by the lake. So any time, anything by water has been the populated the longest, obviously.
Why it's up by Canada and they fought in the War of 1812.
I'm sorry, there's a I'm sinner. This is the that's my fault. The British were back and the Canadians and the French were involved. Really? Yeah. I was quite, quite a little. We were a skirmish. There was a skirmish. Yeah. We were all involved. And everybody everybody was involved. Yeah. There was a lot of you know, I could have paid attention and there's a lot to a lot of shit to say. And I didn't pay attention to this show.
I think we've talked about it before. I never talked about the really not the War of 1812 very much mainly talk about revolutionary, probably just psyllium.
I knew. I mean, how do we know? I don't know. Why would I assume? You know, I don't know. I I've heard of that war. I mean, it's a war. Yeah, it's but it's a popular one. Yeah. It's happened.
A lot of people are in and I think a whole bunch of people did that. I don't know much about it either. It's the region now known as Brownstown was once part of the French province of Quebec. OK, that's kind of what this was all about. The area eventually fell into the hands of the British and finally came on into the American rule in the seven and seventeen hundred. So this went back and forth a lot. All these Borderlands Rhiner, they shift quickly that Southwest is the same way with Mexico.
You know, till there's a big war, then they can and then they set some some parameters like sand. And we all agree pretty well.
One side agrees and the other side agrees with the gun to their head. And that's the end of the conflict.
So the original forty three square mile area, which is land south of Detroit, was designated a township by the Michigan Territorial Council on in eighteen twenty seven. And Moses Roberts was elected as their first supervisor.
So Wow made Brownstown one of Wayne County's nine original townships. Now the person that was named for is an eight year old boy. Oh boy.
Well, he grew up, but an eight year old boy named Adam Brown, he apparently was kidnapped by this. So the legend goes I mean, this happened in the seventeen hundreds.
So honestly, he wandered off. Let's be honest. Who knows?
He could have just he could have been just wandering away and tripped and hit his head on a rock and rotted in the woods in. He found them and they were like, let's make a legend. Yeah, he never came back, so he must be king of the very people or something, who knows? So they he was kidnapped by the Wyandot Indians, as the legend goes. And and they were in Virginia, I guess they took him there.
And this is an account as recorded by A.S. Withers in The Chronicles of Border Warfare. This is just a quote from their quote, October 17 60 for a mixed band of 50. Mingo and Delaware warriors raided Carpenter's fort in Virginia. They killed Carpenter and made prisoners of Carpenter's son and two brothers, Samuel and Adam Brown. Oh, so that's the Adam Brown is the young boy. I guess he ended up growing up among the tribe that he was kidnapped into and ended up marrying a native woman.
According to the the whole history historical accounts of the thing, he ended up becoming like an important tribal elder, became one of the leaders of the tribe. Wow. Which is strange, but yeah, that happened, I guess.
And I guess his name is on several treaties with the American government interest signing for the signing for the Indian side. So very, very interesting. And then he sided with the British in the War of 1812 and moved to Amherst was Amherst Berg, Ontario after the British defeat, because that was up in Canada. Obviously, Canadian church or church records show that he died in September of eighteen twenty seven in Windsor, Ontario. And as time passed, they they started making this into land and they ended up that was the year they incorporated the town they named after him because I guess he died that year.
So his name was in the on the you know, in the consciousness at the time.
The township is also home to the Chevrolet battery pack assembly plant right now.
So the Chevrolet Volt battery pack volts they make for those cars? Yeah, for the cars there. So there's that. And yeah, it's a it's part of a collection of communities known as Down River Three.
Yeah, that sounds awful. This ship floated the ship floating down from Detroit. Wonderful. The three separate segments are due to the incorporation of the city's Flat Rock, Rockwood and Woodhaven. Anything with rock or would it must have in the title. You have to have that in there. Have reviews of the town.
Can't wait there all you'll see a pattern here.
This town is very, very mediocre. We'll put it that way. Here's a three star review. The average review, quote, not a bad place, but not an amazing place, not very diverse. So if you want any foods are a bit more diverse, you might have to drive a bit. So there you go. Not small town. I see strip malls. Yeah, it's that sort of thing. I see a lot of like Domino's Pizza barbeque joints or hamburger.
Yeah. What's the pizza they have there. What's the Detroit one of their chain. I don't remember.
Detroit has a type of pizza though and it's actually pretty good, right.
It's fine. It's fine. It's a deal better than whatever the hell they're serving in Cincinnati. It's just a thick crust. It's a pancake. Yeah.
Yeah, but it's a it's not bad, though. It's a spongy crust. It's yeah. It's it's got good flavor to it. No, it's tasty to think with Detroit. It's a tasty pizza. I like it there.
So you know that the worst pizza I had with Salt Lake City, Utah, Salt Lake City, we ordered pizza and it was hot. All the pizza there in Salt Lake City for some reason. Spicy pizza. Yeah. It's a thing that's a favorite, which isn't OK because I'm after a show, I want to eat like five slices of pizza. My fucking lips were on fire after we couldn't eat the pizza. It was a spicy, but it was cheese.
Right. Spicy cheese. Right. It was burning. I mean, I like a little spice, but this was like you couldn't eat three slices of pizza because your lips are on fire.
That's in the sauce. Right? It was going to be I took the cheese off. That was hot. Just the cheese. Just the cheese was hot. The crust was hot. Everything was fucking hot with Salt Lake City. What are you doing? It it's the most mild, boring place in the world. Little spicy place, at least in America. There's not a speck of pepper in that entire city. Never mind at all in our pizza.
It's stuffing it in there. Chilies or something weird. Yeah. So here's a three star. I would say it is an average suburban town. There's a big mall with a movie theater near where I live.
All right. So it sounds just go wrong there. The burbs, the three stars. One of the things I enjoy about Brownstown, Michigan, is the familiarity.
I know this I know this shit. It's not that much to know. I enjoy living in a small enough city where I'm able to know my way around every corner, although I do get bored of the city easily and would like to see more activities for teenagers to do in the future. OK, here's one that's very specific to this person. One star. Hard to find a job with respectable coworkers, that's all.
I mean, he's a very specific beef that people take out on a review of a whole town to people, Bob and Ted.
We're dicks at work, and every job I get, there's a Bob and a Ted there, every last one of them must be the townsfolk. How does everybody get to hire a bob? And it's not my fault, not just a bunch of me not helping me.
There's three stars. There are a lot of teenagers pulling pranks. Some have chopped down our mailbox three times. I threw eggs on my car and put stink bombs on my porch. Not a very big fan of living here because of that. Well, yeah, it sounds like those kids are the problem. That's probably a specific group of kids of an adult who chops down a mailbox, chopped it down three times. Three times. I'm take you will not have a mailbox, motherfucker.
No mail. I told you, find a kid with an axe and you got your while he's walking around looking for.
Wow, OK, here's another three star. The area I live in is decent. However, it is not anything spectacular is exactly this mediocrity. There are not a lot of fun activities to engage in and there are not a lot of beautiful parks to visit. The school district is a really good one and there's nothing bad to say about it. I enjoy living here. However, I would not mind moving to a prettier, more fun area. So I kind of like it, but I don't.
And I'll move.
But maybe not careful on how you describe funds or your neighbor and hates the stink bombs on his board. Maybe that's fine. I think it's fun. You know what? Maybe you're not just walking around the right way. Maybe need to get out there. It's stink bombs and an axe and have yourself a ball. Buy yourself a potato gun. So find yourself some mailboxes. Yeah. You ever done that? Some dry ice and some two liter bottles.
Mix it up by like a seventy five Ford pick up and just hit him with your car. You can hit me. It's more efficient with the mailboxes. But I knew a kid who steals rock. I know a kid who had a seventy two duster in high school. Yeah. It was the biggest piece of shit. It had no floor and like holes. You could be kids would piss out of the holes while the car was moving. Yeah.
You pull up the floor mat, the floor mat. So it was rocks wouldn't shoot up in the eye while you were driving because that keeps the salt out of the car. Exactly. Exactly.
But this car was a giant steel shit box and we'd be driving and he'd be in a neighborhood and he would just go swerve into and just bang bang metal garbage cans flying all over the place. Boom, boom, you take out a fucking mailbox. Now, it was it didn't give a shit about his car. So back on the road and get the boom boom. And he just forgot he was just last he was a real bad. But I mean, oh is the funniest goddamn thing in the world.
What are you doing? Why do you do that now? If somebody did that, I would kill them. Yeah. Done well in Arizona. Thankfully we have cinderblock. Yeah. Tailbacks. That's not going to fuck your car up. Yeah. Good luck. Your Honda Civic won't take a mailbox mine out front.
It's built into a like a two foot wide brick structure. There's no way stone around. Oh, you'd have two feet in the ground. You need like some crowbars and hammers and axes and shit to get it that it's sturdier than Bullard's around a gas pump. It is. It really is.
Well, my mail is safe anyway, so that's helpful. I'm very happy about that. So people in this town, population thirty one thousand and twenty six. So yeah. And it's up a lot since nineteen ninety. Our case took place in the seventies so it was a lot lower than it was just it was kind of more out there burbs. It was farmland and shit around here. Now it's getting just more suburban. Yeah but it's up sixty five percent since nineteen ninety female and male population's about normal.
Median age is forty years old, a couple of years older than normal but nothing extreme. No, no wild. There's not an exorbitant number of elderly people or anything. Middle age Detroit commuters kind of. They have kids, you know, married populations a little bit higher than usual here. It's that sort of thing. Divorce rates a little higher to lounge, you know. Hey, I mean, people are losing money in pain in the ass.
Yeah, let's see. You never know. So everything else, though, is about average, single with children, all that kind of shit racially even race. A race of this town. Seventy nine percent white, about almost eight percent black, five percent Asian. So close to the average is a little more white, a little less black. But everything else is pretty close. Less Hispanic people to six point seven percent. Their religion, forty two point two percent of the people here are religious.
Interesting. Yeah. And it's it's spread around. Mostly Catholic is seventeen percent, but it's not so not. Well, it's not blowing anybody away here. There's six point five percent other and shit like that. Zero point zero percent Jewish. That's not happening but three point six percent Islam. Interesting. Michigan has large Islamic community. That's true. Yeah. A lot. A lot. And that might be the highest one we've ever had. It really might be in a small town.
We get that a lot. Now, that's that's that's like when you get a small town near Minneapolis like like twenty two percent Asian in Minneapolis. Oh, yeah.
They have a lot of there's a lot of Asian people in Minneapolis. So unemployment rate in this town, it's pretty low because of that factory, a couple of factories and. There you can apparently it's still it's commutable, too, so there's jobs around here and some manufacturing jobs, especially unemployment rates, about national average household income that was a little bit higher out here. And national and national average, 57000, 652 here, seventy two thousand two eighty nine.
That's great. So not too shabby. A lot. Like I said, manufacturing jobs, a lot of jobs at the Volt battery factory and shit like that cost of living in this town. One hundred is average here. It's 104. OK, so not that bad. Pretty good.
And you're making 20 grand more than national average.
That's I mean, so not too shabby. Housing is an eighty nine out of a median home cost two hundred and six thousand five hundred bucks. OK, not too bad, but there's a lot of homes available between one hundred thousand three hundred thousand. So you can find you can live in this place while it's over 70 percent of the houses are worth between one hundred and three hundred thousand.
So that's a lot of average. It's just a mediocre town.
It's just it's a very mediocre town. And if we've convinced you to shoot for mediocrity, you know what? Why shoot for the stars to the metal bars, shoot for the basement. Let's shoot for something nice and comfortable. We have for you the Brownstown Township real estate report.
The average two bedroom rental here goes for about nine hundred sixty seven dollars, doable, doable. It's about right with the way it works here. I found a four bedroom, one bath, fifteen hundred fifty five square foot vinyl siding as far as the eye can see. One of those here, it's a bit dumpy, nothing special. Kitchen's kind of crappy, stuff like that. But one hundred forty nine thousand nine hundred bucks for four bedrooms. Fifteen hundred square feet.
You can have a couple of kids and one goddamn survive. That's rough. I'm sure it's one and a half. I hope it's one and a half.
I'll bet it's one. Oh, no, that's rough. That's not easy.
Here's a four bedroom, two bath. Fifteen hundred and seventy five square foot. So it's kind of the same house, but nicer, more up to date. You know, that's that's had a renovation done in the last ten years. And this one's two hundred five thousand dollars. Right. That's not bad. It's, I mean you can get it renovated and everything. Then you're the let's say you're the the manager down at the Volt battery factory there, I found a three bedroom Forbath tee ball for every ball and one to go and one left over gets to be home.
Not bad. Two thousand seven hundred seventy six square feet. Yeah, it's a good size. It's brick. It's really nice. Brick house with nice manicured bushes and grown in trees. Really nice. Three hundred ten thousand bucks.
Not bad at all. That's so affordable. That's very good. Compared to other cities.
It's really affordable. A big house like that. You can't get this. If you look at Phoenix real estate, you're not getting there never again. We're getting nothing made a brick anyway, especially not. But it is plywood and mud. That's it.
You could kick your way through a Phoenix house. You can't. Yeah, don't bother breaking in the door. If you want to burglarize a house, just kick your way through the door because it's just plywood and chicken wire.
You can just kick right through it, keep kicking the wall and then use some wire cutters to get the rest of the way. And then you walk right into the house.
The big pile of shit things to do in this town, huh? Here, the Uncle Sam Jamm.
What I mean, what does that sound like to you? The Uncle Sam, the July.
Yeah, but it's it's just looks really cheesy. Yeah. I saw the one picture they have, there's a couple up, there's one of the logo which is Uncle Sam with fireworks and a guitar and a Ferris wheel. That's pretty cool.
A guitar over what, like an 80s, like a red electric guitar with the like a Sammy Hagar drive. Fifty five guitar. We all over the other shoulder with with fireworks. And he's pointing out he also seems to have like a snare like. Yeah, motherfucker. Like that's what he seems like. He's saying I want you motherfucker to have a beer and come here and relax.
I want you to stand and cheer. This is what they really want you to see the stage perform and see the smoke machines. Looks like it's in like a small place that I looked on the I could see zooming in on the back of his jacket because I'm like, who is that person with long blond hair singing in the front? And it says, Bret Michaels band. Of course, that is that is Bret Michaels. Not even with poison. Right.
Do just Bret Michaels that Bret Michaels post Rock of Love, that Bret Michaels like do every rose has its stories like I can't have to other people. I can't do that. I'm going to do every tulip has its root. Every two live has several paddles.
You ready? One, two, three, two. In the past, several pedals.
How does she love me? She loves me.
Not so many things you can do with pedal the song every dandelion.
You can blow off all the seeds through the wind and a daisy is light.
Come on, everybody can still stir when it's died and go. Yeah, needs to be watered.
Everybody come on. You put in me.
Oh come on everybody join me.
Oh like Avery.
Avery says exactly that. Oh come on everybody. Lou, I guarantee it at some point. A lot probably seems like. Come on everybody who kind of guy. Yeah, come on. He's a giant douche.
Take your tits out. He's a take your titties out. Yes. He's definitely a guy that says things that shouldn't be said today.
Oh yeah. A lot was like I mean, yeah. Not to be a jerk. You know, I drank a lot of reasons actually. We had to for some parts so bad it's horrific. He's like that show is just basically him saying all the different things that make him horny. He's like I'm like to like put the women in a room. Yeah. Like against their will of course. And if we could just like, slip drugs into their drinks and then take their panties away and let's see what.
Happens, right? I mean, plaid skirts, no pants, right, in a sick sort of way, it makes me feel whole floor, nothing but camera. I'm saying pull for the camera lens.
I think we should do it, man. He would say she looks right. Calm down. Right. She's diabetes and you're 60. Horny bastard, you old horny fuck. We know what's under that bandana. Horndog bald fucking head is wispy, wispy, blond hair.
One of the dads asked him if he still has hair and he was pissed. It's like, that's a logical question.
Logical because you have a lot of it coming out of the back, yet you have a Hulk Hogan do rag. And we've been conditioned. If we see long flowing blond hair, there's a drag on top. There's nothing under that threat. And that's why you wear it. That's why you're wearing those are extemporize.
You'd have fucking more hair popping out, otherwise you'd be jacked to not wear that fucking showing it off fucking easy like it did back in the day when you used to just wear like the exact same block as Hair Lane. Yeah. You never saw that shit go over its head and poison went around the front and the hair came over. Oh yeah. And now she had to whip it around the ladies. What's up now. Straps over the top and use the back to whip around.
He knows what he's doing. We get it. Bradley got it. Just be the new Wilford Brimley and be fine with that.
Happened about the same time where he had that permanent eye makeup. But I got that same tattooed fucking eyeliner.
I was going, why does he wake up like that? That's weird. Creepy looking at it. Oh, I see. It's not.
Oh, that's not all right. Yeah, that's not normal. So it's fine to do. But that's not like a naturally occurring in a body is what I mean, not normal. It's going to be weird when you're 80 and doing diabetes commercials and you've still got that shit on your face. So I found twenty, twenty one music festivals and music events in Michigan here and I'll just run down the list of them because this, the names are pretty funny here.
One the Jack Jill Jack annual birthday bash.
I don't know what the fuck that is. The Motor City Music Convention record show. The Lansing Record and CD show, OK, the CD, new ones, but it's twenty twenty one which is buying CDs and it's at the quality and OK now makes and it says dealers from four states fine LPs, CDs, forty fives, DVDs and other music related.
Wow that sounds great. Just Jesus Christ.
Just get, you know that media that teenagers like and then we'll do it at the hotel. We don't have to go far to that stuff. I'm in a room after we kidnap him and put drugs in there and we'll sing every dandelion as it spore and it's going to be fine. So I like it. The Sphinx Competition and Finals Concert, which is an annual event for black and Latino classical string players. They're very nice.
And the CSX CSX annual classic Rock Swap meet. Oh, shit. What does that what do you think it is a classic rock swap fucking meet Vion. All the merch that other people bought it put it together. That's a sweet Def Leppard. Oh man that's a pyromania to look at.
How bad ass is that.
Motor oil stains. Hot damn right. It is worth more with them on them than working on my truck for the last twenty years. Later in this show they were awful crime rate in this town. What we're interested in property crime just it's just over half the average. So it's it's very pretty safe in terms of property crime and then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery and assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime is about one third under the national average as well.
Great. So, yeah, you get right outside in the suburbs here and it's a pretty safe, pretty safe little suburban town, strip malls, malls, crap. I love it. Yeah, it's one of those type of places here. So murder is what we need to talk about. So let's talk about our two hundredth murder.
Right. Let's do this. So, all right, let's start out. We're going to go back to nineteen seventy seven. We're going to start out right in the middle of one year. Like sometimes we'll start out kind of here's a body. Sometimes we'll go let's go back to the 40s. This person was born and we'll talk about their upbringing sometimes. Let's just go let's just jump into the middle of some people's lives here. Bicentennial plus one. That's it.
This is the one here. It's everyone. We're still all still.
Jack, Jack, we've done this. Two hundred. Oh, my God.
Two hundred years. And by the 70s, we were looking to cut it short. I think at that point it almost all fell apart. So we've got to talk about a guy named Bruce Orvil Ramsey.
Yeah. So Bruce. Yeah. And Orville is his middle name. He's lucky it wasn't the other way around.
Yeah, that's a tough one. Someone tough named Ramsey.
Sounds like you're a proctologist. There's a country singer named Orville Peck and he is terrific, really so bizarre. But I don't know how he landed on Orvil unless that's his real name. Maybe he's a proctology.
Maybe that's what he does on the side. He disappears for a while. He's got a you know, those doctors have to keep up on new.
Yeah. If you read the medical journals and things, he's got to come off the road every once in a while, there's a lot of pink and frills. It's possible he's into it before every show. He's like the glove on his hands, like, oh, man. He's like, come on, everybody. You know the deal. You know what I like, got to make sure there ain't no polyps or nothing before we get going. I don't fit on stage with no man with no polyps.
You want to sing every goddamn begonia.
Fucking hell I'm only allowed to sing.
Every business has its leaves then that's fine. But you're going to have to take the finger first.
You want to get into that bonus cause about poinsettias. You better bend it right right now. Boy, you got a lot of songs to sing. Bend out over. I could name flowers. All right. You want no honey. They all got so much to it. So dig in that.
Bret Michaels releases an entire I just an entire album of fucking flower themes, everything but I everything but all of the same parent sucks. You wait there's a track through the same shit. A different flower has a different something to it.
I'm on it now. I want it to like down to like an orange blossom. Every time we did it though people would buy that because it's hilarious. Yes they would, they would download that but he wouldn't do it because he's got too much pride. Yeah, he's got too much pride. He takes himself to imagine him doing that shit with a straight face, like in the old poisoned video. It's like dead serious. That shit would be pretty fucking funny.
Would be much better if he does that shit. Every song from that album at this festival, that would be great from the start to the end. And then he was on stage and goes, give me the check. The crowds every time it starts the first couple of times the guitar starts like, oh, it's going to be our as a they're happy and they're like, I don't know what the fuck is by the end of it, they're just throwing cheap beer at him.
Once he talked, he just I don't know. He just brought up Marigold's. What's happening? Marigot. I don't I don't know. This is he. And every time it starts, there's less and less hope where I think it's about isare fucking days disease.
Of course he's going to do eat it breakfast, give him the finger.
At minimum, he should take the state flower. And every time he plays a song in that state, just do it about it. That's just the state flower, you fucking song cactus fucking blossom. Here we go. I would love that.
Oh, I love that man to fork out every bird of paradise. It's got a point. Beach is like stretch. It doesn't even it doesn't even work. Fred, come on. It's like oh it's all about boom there but that's all it is man. I make a face, I make a serious face and I do a hard strum and that's fun.
Matter what the song is there. He doesn't care. State flower. State flower the state flower to state flower in Magnolia Let's go.
Sponsored by miracle fucking sponsored by fucking around. Oh my God.
Home Depot and Lowe's are there at the big huge huge like oh man poof.
Nothing's going to say Lowe's like this right here. So anyway nineteen seventy seven Bruce Awful Ramsey who is not a member of boys and that we know of, I mean he might have filled in for somebody at some point. We don't know. So he's married at this point to a woman about his age. This is Beatrice Ramsey.
She goes by Barbara. Yeah. Everybody call. Yeah. Yeah. Beatrice and in the seventies to the only B was Bea Arthur to who was like who she was Maude. Right. Which is fine. She's hilarious, very talented. But nobody wants to know. Woman was like, I want to be hot like Maude, you know. Hey, how are you doing.
Chain smoking, ma. Yeah.
Hey, how are you doing? I'm going to be on the Golden Girls later and everyone's going to know who I am and just say Bea Arthur. So, Barbara, little bit better. Barbara is a very 70s name. Yeah. Every woman was named Barbara in the seventies.
So Bruce here works. It's a very 70s name to Bruce and Barbara. How do you if you're names, you just hear a couple, Bruce and Barbara pick the decade. You know, that's 1970s probably.
Right, 60s, 70s somewhere on there. Porn mustache. They known each other since the 60s at least. Yeah. Porn mustache on him, you know, washes the car in the driveway. So he works for the Ford Motor Company plant in Woodhaven.
So he's got like a good, steady job. And that's to you work. You live in the. This area and up in the 70s, if you still had a job at the plants, you're doing great. Yeah, that was basically if you didn't get laid off, life was great. They still had made great money and still did really well in these plants.
So, you know, he's doing really, you know, pretty decent for himself, at least, you know, a good blue collar living in a nice suburb. That's especially back in the 70s, a little bit more open and suburban. They have two children together, which that's good as well. A little boy, little girl. So, you know, they're having a little suburban existence here. Nice little suburban existence. Thing is though, about nineteen seventy seven, he starts kind of going off the rails a little bit, not half anymore.
Well, I don't know if he's not happy anymore, but he turns most people, you know, like you get like a midlife crisis because he's born, he's born in nineteen forty three. So at this point you know, he's not that much, he's only thirty two years old, but he's got the kind of an early midlife crisis. You know, if they came on earlier back then maybe because people didn't live as long. Yeah. So even in the 70s even still expectancy.
Yeah. You got a job at the plant right out of high school. So it was a different life. He's got ten years in already. Yeah. Some say. And so I don't know what it was, but it seems like he's having like a midlife crisis or something because he's always just like a steady family guy, works at the Ford Motor Plant and it's just like everybody else.
And two kids, wife, burbs, church, go and, you know, go to church on Sundays. But he starts getting a little weird in nineteen seventy seven.
There's a lot of people this is a time of like people are swingin' and people were doing weird shit and people are living lives a little better than me.
Yeah. Having more fun doing it. There you go. More fun.
And he's got a weird mix of like that mixed with the fact that he is a product of a family who is like a really, really southern fundamentalist religious family, OK, snake handling, you know, fire and brimstone like not into it and like hell shit to not not even like, you know, we're talking like, you know, hill revivals and shit like that in Kentucky where he's from.
Yeah. This is different. Take it too far. It's just different. Yeah.
We're talking, you know the it's you can live it that way.
That's fine. It's fine. It makes it makes normal. I hate saying I like that. And that's most people that are not used to that. They come into your church on Sunday. Yeah. They're a bit uncomfortable. It's weird.
It's kind of the old everything in moderation. OK, I mean, I'm not going to tell you anything's bad because some people can see I'm not going to tell you religion's bad. Some people, it helps them a lot. Yeah, it really does. Gives them comfort. Gives them whatever. Great. Good for you. Fucking great. I smoke weed. You got that. Don't judge me. I don't judge you. Shake hands and agree to disagree.
It's fine. We'll both sleep fine at night. I mean I don't care whatever is good for you dude. Go for know what I mean. I don't care unless as long as you're not hurting anybody, knock yourself out. There's the qualifier. If it's all for you and you're feeling good and it makes other people feel, go for it.
Hey, who am I to judge? Who are we to judge? We're idiots. Yeah, we're a couple of idiot comedians. We don't know shit.
You don't want to know what I do. That makes me feel good. No, it's gross. I know about it. Half of it. It's pretty gross and you don't want to know about it.
So I'm telling you, it's, I'm not saying it's everybody has their thing too, I think. And it's not bad. We'll just put it that way. It's not bad. But at this moment in time, it seems like he's like a guitar string that's a little too tight. OK, between the suburban life that's supposed to be all great and the fundamentalist upbringing that's got this like this hardcore, I don't know the word I'm even looking for here, which is a fundamentalism of religion, just a real purity of that.
He has to be. And that's a lot of pressure, too. Too much religion is like too much anything. You know, people use Coke and do it fine. That's the thing. It's not a well-known thing because a lot of times, you know, it's very addictive and people can't control it. But I've known people who have used Coke here and there for years. Not I've never not never a lot recreationally. And they do it fine. They have a good time with it.
Sure. Most people that doesn't work for them. So, I mean, that person figures out a way to have moderation. Some people can have moderation and religion or moderation. And flip side of the coin, things that are good for you. You can have too much water and have too much. Yeah, he'll die and die too much water. That's a fact. And it's moderation and everything is good. Yeah, it's just good. So this guy, though, goes from all one to just I'm going to snap one day.
OK, OK. So out of nowhere he basically strays from the church in mid nineteen seventy seven, sort of strays from the church, stops going with his family, doesn't pay attention, starts drinking alcohol. OK, start smoking weed.
Oh you never did before the rails. And then we haven't seen those in a minute.
Yeah he is going his way. Oh yeah. He's going from I mean, working at the plant, you know, voted for Nixon, yeah. You know, just kind of I'm a straight I'm silent majority fucking that kind of guy. Well, my two kids in the suburbs to weed smells good. What is that? We're going to pass on that one. Well, you know what? That dick ain't looking so bad now. I'm gonna have me a party, and that's what he's doing.
What he does. Yeah. Start smoking weed, starts screwing around on his wife. Oh, that's not good. And I don't know what comes first, but I think it's that first the wife.
I think you fuck around a wife and then you're like, well, I'm doing that. Might as well do other shit. Yeah, that's that's what I think it is, because I think I don't know, I guess whatever draws you, if you're a guy that's drawn by alcohol, drugs or women, it depends on your desires. If you're just living your life in the day to day with a wife and kids and you're going to church, it's you rarely find a girl to to stray off that paru.
You know, it's going the other way, being in bars all the time, smoking weed. A little easier to find a girl that's fucking married. That's a that's a good possibility that it's the booze then the weed than the girl. That's a good point. I can see that go either way. Or the girl could be like he could like a girl and she could be like, come over here. I like to smoke weed and drink booze.
And he's like, sure, me to try one of these.
I mean, I'm getting laid. Yeah.
You know, it's the one that I'm used to and then we'll go from there.
Yeah. I think. And men are here, ladies who are listening. You can get an insight here. Men are motivated in our reptile brain. Yeah.
We have our intellectual brain also where we can pays the bills. Yeah. The one where we can kind of sort all these thoughts out. But in our reptile brain, which by the way, no amount of of anything will fix it because it's nature. Know, that's why there's a population. Yeah, because we're gross. I mean, let's be honest.
If we weren't pushing it, we had to wait for this.
It's a great thing. I'm just saying. But if I had to if we waited for the time that a woman brought it up first, this population would be much thinner.
It would be thinner. Yeah, for sure. Yes, I would say so. We're we're we're usually we're the ones trying to make the sale for the most part. That's what I'm getting at work.
Women enjoy it just as much as men do. That's not a that's. Oh absolutely. Remember, we show up at the door with a rat, with the encyclopedias. You might love to read them, but we're outside going. It's a wonderful, beautiful volume from a to be bound in leather. Look, it's got everyone talking more about flowers. And Bret Michaels, you can understand his new album. Check it out here. Check out the section full of flowers that's up on the doorstep and you're like, what's up?
And let me in. And then you like it. So it's fine. Women aren't buying cars based on the amount of goods that are going to try to fuck them. Yeah, that's right. That's what I'm saying.
Yeah, we know that everybody can be the aggressor, but that's not what we're saying.
We're just saying that it's men are constantly on a path no matter what they do. Every decision we make, if we're single, even specifically, it's specifically tailored towards is this going to help me get exactly what it is?
You're single. You're just like, well, women like me decide which one of these options I have.
Will women hate least. And then as you get older, that's really what it is. And as you get older, though, usually you kind of you're you know, you adopt the you adopt the the Wu Tang philosophy of life, which I should remember. It was an interlude in one of the albums where they were talking about all this stuff. And one guy is talking about it was real, you know, misogynist shit for the most part. But it's a rap album from nineteen ninety seven.
What do you want.
So they're talking to the one guy goes man never mind, never mind a pussy, give me the money. And the weed is like I guess that's a philosophy that much is that you get distracted by. That was again the people guys get distracted by that. Oh boy do we. Yeah. Yeah. And if you get the money in the weed, maybe then maybe an absolutely.
If you would just focus on the success trajectory of having something that's comfortable and a comfortable life where you're not living paycheck to paycheck. If you can focus on that first, I assure you you're going to you're going to be fine.
Then still be nice to see some guys don't do. And some guys are like, I got a car, an apartment, a good job. What's up? Where are they pointing? At us sitting there. That's what I'm sitting on the couch with my door open, just waiting for my cocks out. Ladies, what the hell? This is what you want right now. You still have to attract them as well.
If it's a full package, you have to do so much work. You know how to use my electric bills paid. Who wants something? Me. Yeah, come on. Like that condition in here because I paid for.
Some guys really think that I did. That's all they need to do. So. Oh, please. Oh my God. So that's an insight. Insight for ladies and help for our friends out there. That's both.
I got a friend that's just it's beyond man. He and he has no people motivated.
He has some some some guidelines and some bars that are set way too fucking high. Yeah. For the face that he has. Oh yeah. And then the stability that he has, it's like, dude, guys are nuts. That's some self-awareness. Nobody owns you anything. You know, we're nuts. We are, we are out of our minds. I know awful looking people. Who would see, you know, a girl who's a movie star and the show, she's just, yeah, tearing her down, I'll never give you the time she would have a security person physically form a barrier in front of your disgusting Mila Kunis is what you're saying, man.
Really? You don't like her face?
OK, sure. Yeah, I saw it with you. I've seen your you can tell these people. I've seen who you've gone out with. At what point was that? No, no.
Tell me. It was between her and Mila and you were like kneelers face is a bit off. Yeah. That one girl had a tail. What are you doing here? But Mila, I wouldn't touch you, OK? Sure you would. You would. You be thrilled and you'd come before you got your fucking pants off because it'd be the best thing you've ever had, you idiot.
Or what you call tiny tits would make you lose your mind, lose your shit.
So enjoy that. OK, we're way off. Yeah. Sorry, sorry about that. You know what? The Christmas spirit, Christmas season, holiday season. And on top of all of that, it's our episode two hundred. So I think we get to have fun.
Let's run around a little bit. Why not? Because it's few hundred. This is for us and for you, but for us too. So he's having an affair. He's doing all this type of shit. Yeah. So you kind of spring of nineteen seventy seven. He goes down, Bruce goes down to visit his mother in Kentucky, a boy who only only good's going to come from this. Yeah. So you back to your roots so get back to your roots and maybe his mom will tell him, you know, smack some sense into him, you know, a little bit.
Do you smoke the devil's let smoke in the devils. Let us hear you're hanging out with impure women, right? WOMAN You have an important woman on the side.
Your beverage says proof on the side of it now. Unbelievable.
Worst of all, you are in a church. On Sunday, I heard the pastor called me down here and he said, Where's Bruce?
I don't know. I raised you better than this. You're better than this. But then she beat him relentlessly unmercifully with a frying pan. So farm equipment.
Yeah, this is an interesting thing here. She in the course of their conversations, when you tell her you haven't seen your mom in a while, you move away to another town, you come back things you know, you have to talk about a wide variety of subjects. Right? How are the kids? That's going to happen for a while. They're great. How's Barbara? She's fine. The house is good. My job's OK. You know, like the other people not liking this coworkers.
I'm sure as we got that review outside of that, though, everything's great.
Eventually when you talk to your mom and you haven't talked to her for a while, the subject will get around to demons and demon possessed people.
Holy shit. Obviously, right now, how many conversations have you had with your mother where that didn't come up at one point?
Sometimes I'm shocked where the confusion gets to.
Yeah, we never get there. I usually we usually just start there to get it out because we know it's going to end up there and there's a bubble.
Yeah. So we, we got like a back and forth about that. And then once that's through that and she's like how's the kids know. I'm like good. I'm usually they're fine. Yeah. We're beating the shit out of the actually I'm one of them passed away about a month ago and I didn't mean to tell you about it, but the demon possessed people really. That was what I needed to get out of my off my chest. Apparently that's where they get along.
That's that's the that's the honeypot. That's what their big subject is to the point where she gives him a pamphlet.
I don't know where she got this pamphlet from. Think about who's printing a pamphlet like this in the seventies in Kentucky.
Yeah. This is either a insane, crazy religious fundamentalist group or the CIA or something. I'm literally I'm not even kidding. So that's the type of shit they would do to stir something up.
I'm just trying to infiltrate groups like fundamentalist religious groups and just find out who will take this. Yeah, well, it was they were infiltrated them the same as the Black Panthers, the same as the hippies, the same as this, that they were doing all that shit to people back then. So, yeah, I'm reading some stuff and getting into some getting into some old conspiracies we talk about on crime and sports. I like a conspiracy. That really doesn't matter.
That's the conspiracy I like also convincing helps you. Yeah. Yeah. Well, even if it's not convincingly, I'm all right. I'm not open to believe it. I'm open to hear it. OK, for fun. OK, that's all it is. I'm not but it's open to hearing for fun.
This is fanfiction to you sometimes, but then you get into some shit where you're like, oh like when you hear about like MK Ultra and you're like, oh no that's that's real. Wow. Like that's if a person came up to you and told you that was happening, you'd be like, what are you, a fucking long shot up?
But then it's real. So there's a lot of crazy shit that happened and infiltration of groups is one of them was one of the things that was real. So who knows.
But I Defeated Enemies was the name of the pamphlet Defeated Enemies and it concerned demons. And demon possessed people, they're the enemies. And this is how you defeat them home through this pamphlet. So she was like, I'm sure you come across a lot of demons and demon possessed people near Detroit. So, yeah, the big city. So here you go. Take this pamphlet in case one jumps out at you.
So, yeah, he gets into a an affair here, has an affair with a woman by the name.
Her last name is Cross. That's all. They identify her as his cross the whole time.
Now, that weekend, I guess he took her down there for the demon pamphlet tour down in Kentucky. So they're banging away down there.
And while in the middle of Koide, coitus, while mid bang, mid bang, they're literally attached. Here's what's happening in the middle of this. Wow. He suffers a psychotic episode during sex.
Oh, where? God, dude, we've done a lot of episodes with a lot of two hundred, as a matter of fact, with a lot of pretty out there people.
Right. I mean pocket Robin, there's been a few that are just like wow, I've never heard of a psychotic episode during sex.
That's usually like when you're at the most clear, most focused, that's just going to say oriented. There's a thing that's happened is only one thing happening, right?
It's like at the end of the night, I try to I play this game.
It's like a word game on my phone to try to clear my brain of, you know, murder that I was just working on all night for. I go to bed. So I spend twenty minutes like doing that and I focus on it. So I don't think about other stuff. Sex is so much better than that for God. It's the you know what I mean. Focus in there. It's so much better.
Nothing matters. Not really. The house could catch on fire. I'm going to finish before I put this out.
That's what I mean. People will people will be having heart attacks and make. Right. Let me just finish before I call on it. I mean, you know, Robert Schimmel. Joan Razorlight. Yeah. Can I finish before I die? Yeah. Can I if I fucking come before I call nine one one going to come first but then we'll do that.
Like I'm probably having a heart attack but I'm going to finish first and then figure it out. So to have a psychotic episode, not a physically you know, it's all behind my ear, between the ears that's mind blowing.
I don't know if he was like losing is fucking hard on and had to fake a psychotic episode to get out of it. That could do it. He's not like, was that a car horn, a psychotic episode in statis? Like, is the phone ringing?
Yeah, he's like, someone's possessed. I have a pamphlet.
She's like, whoa, yeah. Oh my. I'm a Twersky. Was he drinking because it could be a thing. Whiskey, weed. And he's not used to drinking outside weed. So we're not used to fucking somebody that's not his wife. I don't know. Yeah. I never heard anybody lose an erection because it's not the wife I was going to say.
I've never heard anybody say weed. Weed only helps. Yeah. And B, that's that's that's why we use the carbon in common parlance. That is some strange I mean it is usually that's going to be. Yeah, that is visual Viagra. Yeah. He was, he was hard in the car when he pulled up like he was like hi I can not wait.
That's a different. Yeah. There's a horse of a different feather as the as as it said.
So anyway that's what's happening. She they're having in the middle of banging mid bang and he suffers a psychotic episode saying that he jumped off of her and said you're a devil. Started saying that she's a devil and a demon. Oh my. While he was banging her, which she's being an angel at that moment. It's an actual angel. You should see a halo here. How goodly of of her?
Her halo is about three feet below her head, as a matter of fact. Yeah. Stay in there. You're fucking you're a dildo. Yeah. With two kids in your crazy mother with a walk around showing her a religious pamphlet about demons and you're going to say she's the devil and get off of her. No, she should turn around and just said, you're the one that's married, you idiot. Yeah, you're married, dummy. So who's the devil now?
And you would have cried. So he said that she's a devil and he ran out of the room. He literally left her there.
Yeah. I just pulled out the devil and left. What an odd experience for a woman. Right. Ladies, have you ever had that one happen to you? You always hear women give like, these crazy sexual stories about this and that has that. Has a guy ever jumped off of you made sex not coming or anything and said you're a demon and then ran out of the room?
What's going to be two or three to say? Yes, if that's because believe that bad. I normally do. I say don't do anything. I want to know if that's happened. If this specific thing has happened to you, please let us know because that is crazy.
And then DM us because I want to hear the story. Yeah, if you're comfortable, obviously, we're not trying to get weird sexual stories, we want to hear how crazy he is not about your sexual what happened to you. That's crazy.
So he runs out of the room. He apparently like she had to go find him.
She had to, like, get dressed and go wander outside and find him. So she eventually tracked him down.
Oh, my God. I hope he put his dick away, put some pants on, ran out. He's still rock hard to read in a pamphlet.
Demons make me fucking horny and I get rid of the demons.
Make me horny. Yeah. God.
So when she found him, he was open to talking, but he insisted that they go back to the room and pray first and before they talk. So no more fucking. Let's take this pamphlet. We'll go back to the room. We'll pray for a while. And she's like, OK, sure.
How is this not a turnoff to how can I get away from this loon? It's OK. Great.
Oh, five miles from home. Great.
This is going to be wonderful. So he then. Oh, my goodness. Jesus, this is when when people get to this part where they see signs from God and things that have no sign from God, it's when I'm start to really. Yeah. Kind of going for the fences. Yeah.
He said the next day the, the, the choke on his truck was clogged, OK, carburetor, the choke was clogged and he took it just clocked you know what happens to an old truck.
Hooked me up like an old truck and started in there had that happened.
So he instead though said that it was a sign from God that he should stay with his wife.
Oh. With your wife, it's a very subtle sign. Yeah, if you're God and you can make anything, you can make your your your carburetor clog up. I mean, that's a pretty he's that power that's saying not only does God have control over all the beings he's created, quote unquote or whatever the fuck, but on top of that, he's got like machine power. He's changing channels like that's a you can mechanically inclined to do for a carburetor that sure.
In the fuck didn't exist when he was alive. He knows how it works to clog it up. It's really good to do, but not a bad deal. Yeah. So to take that and go, that's a personal message from God. He had to have stared at that carburetor and gone.
What does this mean.
But that's be looking for a sign and a sign from God and thinking that's a way that God's communicating with them like needed him to pull over and, you know, think about it for a minute.
Well, now this means I'm stuck and I have to stay off the field. Would I stay stay with my wife? The fuel needs to flow if it flows like love in a marriage.
And it's it's I'm being I'm being clogged and I'm just being all just held up tight.
Now, my love isn't being allowed inside the injectors creates a fire like passion, like the fuel of marriage is love.
And that pushes the truck down a road. It's clogged at the truck. I get no love.
Yeah, it's going to stall. And that goes for pussy as well.
That's how he would say, because that's what that means. This bitch has got to get out of my truck.
That's what he would call women. And that is not a good guy. Probably. So anyway, he's the clogged joke is a song from aside from God. And then he said, oh my God, he got back in the truck to figure out what to do, turn the radio on. And every song that came on, like pop songs, do not not the gospel channel, pop music.
The all of the lyrics were also messages from God, of course, to tell him things.
So he's like every song on the radio is about love.
Yeah, but. But it was God, God, God put only put that song out, you know, four years ago. So four years from then he would hear it at that moment when it God plays chess. It's not checkers, Jimmy. This is chess. It's a long it's a long game. Yeah. Yeah.
It's playing eighteen moves and he writes Aqualung. So then when you need it three years later you're going to hear it and go Yes, that's Clinton's. I should stay with my wife. God damn it.
What I oh boy.
I don't even know I'm losing it with this guy. So he gets back home and he says he's going to stay with his wife. Yep. It's clear he's done he's doing it. So he he gets home. He, you know, stays home one night, sleeps when he gets back from Kentucky. He works a full day at the Ford plant like he normally does. Seems to be back to his.
And then no one ever seems to have like a three day lost his goddamn mind, came home. Sande's you know, Zajick and he's ready to OK to focus again. I feel like he just needed a quick, clean, quick. He's like one of these old timey guys you need to like, go blow off steam and like a whorehouse like they use quote unquote for a weekend. Right. Guys, you should just do that back in the day.
Well, you got to throw it away to know what's good, you know what I mean?
That's the thing you got to you got to just sacrifice the whole thing and let it go to know what you had.
My grandmother. They do. Yeah. Italian grandma said that that is how my grandfather got the approval from her family to marry her and everything and was my uncle Tina took her out, took my grandfather out to hang out him and his brothers and, you know, a bunch of guineas running around the Bronx and nineteen forty nine or some shit. So my grandmother's telling me this story about three years ago and she got so, you know, he took my Tina took takes him out with, you know, this one and that one.
And it takes him to get to know, you know, so show everybody they're going to be you know, he's going to propose he asked if he could propose. So they're going to make sure he's OK. Oh, that's nice. You know, it's a real community thing, the Italian thing. So they go out and, you know, they do what the guys do. They go to the bars, you know, they drink, they go play some cards place.
You know, they go to the to the whorehouse. Well, hold on. Excuse me. Grandma will back that up. Yeah. The whorehouse. What are you stupid? She tells me like you don't know what a whorehouse. A mother whorehouse with the girls. I know what it is Grandma. Thank you. I heard all of those. Yeah. The whole house is like you. I figured you'd say that more gently. But I guess my 90 year old woman, my the whorehouse, I just thought it was funny.
So then she says, so my grandfather, my, my brother comes and she says to me, that's a good man. You have their. You should marry him. Yeah, we take the heat, and he didn't even he didn't even go with any of the horses. Oh, that's so nice of the horse, he said, I can't I love I love my Gloria. You know, that's so sweet. Me. So they all went in and they did what they you know, and they came out and he was still there.
It never did the thing. So then, you know, I could marry him. I was like, oh, thank you. That's a beautiful Italian love story, Grandma. That's that is lovely.
Did not fuck the horse. So that's fine. So he now have the horse and so they say you should marry. I say, yeah, I should, you know.
Wow. OK, you know. Have you ever heard your grandparents say how they met and how they got together. Was it like that. Probably not. This was, it was very lazy. It was she was the only one in high school that liked me at that or, you know, we met at a dance or we did this not. Yeah, he took her to the whorehouse and we passed the skank test or whatever he was calling it.
And that's not our words. That's, you know, the ninety three year old Italian woman saying, that's the only reason why I'm saying it. So obviously I go with brothel.
It's more respectful to everyone.
I sure do. I sure do. I sure do. I am sure. Sure. I'm partial to the whore house. Well it's because it's all plastic. Yeah. But it's fucking serves it really well.
It goes down that rightfully it's not the favorite word of the ladies, it's not necessarily our house like it's not very nice.
No Old West, that's what they, they were proud of that, that was we've talked about in Deadwood. Yeah. And that was because in the old West that was considered an honorable profession. You were it was accountant, you know, bahlmann for there was like that was these were all solid and they were like, that's what I am, God damn it, you fuck. They were proud of it. She went to the Shamone, got the license for it.
Yeah. Yeah. She don't shame me. That's I provide a goddamn service and I know what I'm doing. Yeah.
This was lady's back then but then obviously it's gotten a little bit more of a stigma which I don't know to each their own. Yeah. Do what you want.
So anyway this guy Ramsey here he. Oh my God.
So he's getting finding messages from God and popular song lyrics. He's, you know, and minor mechanical problems on an old pickup truck, which seems pretty common. Yeah. So full day of work and everything like that. He calls his mother in Kentucky after this full day of work.
And he is like manic, like he is exuberant, crazy, talking about his return to God. Yeah. And he's triumphant, returning to God. And he's so excited, like he's acting like he's going to go somewhere and, you know, play racquetball with God. And he's just jacked about it because they're friends again. But like, he's just so psyched about his return to God and his mother's, like, crazy.
Sure. Yeah. You know, good for you. I'm glad the pamphlet helped. Yeah. That was weird enough for you.
So now the day this happens here, nineteen seventy seven. He's home. He comes home after a full day's work. He's excited to talk to his mom, gets home and his kids are home and his wife is home. Barbara, she's there as well.
And they have an argument that as you know, people do people married couples have arguments here now. Wow. And the kids are like, you know, eight and 12. So they're small little kids. They're they're two boy and girl. So at this point, they're arguing in one of the Ramsey children later will say that Barbara came into the child's room crying, which I mean, I get that you're trying to get away from the husband, but when you take that to the kid, you're ruining that kid.
You're really involved in them.
And it's boy, that's painful when you're a kid and you're you're getting involved in parents stuff and and you're not necessarily getting involved.
You're being brought into it on purpose. You're being brought in. And the people, they're telling you their side and shit. You ever have that going like, whoa, this is not this is really it's not good to it's not good at all.
So but I think at this point, this guy is like losing his mind with this religious fervor. And I almost think the woman is I almost think Barbara's trying to get away from him and would like let me just hang out with the kids here and maybe he'll leave me alone type of thing. Yeah. Almost using them as a shield or the other hand, maybe she is using herself as a shield so they'll stay away from the kids. I don't know her motivation here, but either one of those seems just as likely or fifty fifty depending on what her state of mind is.
So they argue, I guess he enters the room, the child's room where Barbara had walked in to.
Bruce comes in and he just yells at her. He says Walk.
That's what he says, which is it's. Yeah. Real angry, not singing a Pantera song just now, insultingly yelling at her what to do, what to do.
Nothing that doesn't even bring up a flower or a rhyme about it or anything. This is not romantic. You've said that to your kids before, just looking dead in the eye. Pointed walk because I'm in charge of that, right? Yeah, you can't do that. If I have dominion over you based on size alone. Yeah, you came for my dick and I pay for everything. You walk. That's it. Like, that's a different thing.
Different to another human being who you didn't create. You can't yell out like that and then pass a certain age. You shouldn't talk to your kids like that either. Only if they're being dicks.
So the barber leaves the room and she kind of walks out of the room acting like she's cooperating. And then she makes a beeline for the bathroom, runs in the bathroom. Lock the door. OK. OK, this this whole game. Yeah. Well, I mean, whatever is going on, if he's acting all crazy, maybe that's a good thing. This is ugly to try to diffuse it. OK, so he knocks on the door, hey, come out.
Obviously, you know, I'm out here. I just I just ordered you from another room. Knock, knock. And she won't ask. She says, just leave me alone. Just why don't you just give give me a minute. Let's just let this whole thing blow over and cool off. I feel like he gets these like these bursts of fervor and you have to like, let him calm and then he kind of chills like the way he did with that cross lady.
Right. You're a demon and ran away and she's like, hey, let's calm down. And she's he you know, he wants to pray and then everything's fine again. And, you know, I think that's what she's thinking. So this probably isn't a brand new things might happen once in a while. This is this familiar for her. She knows. Yeah, she knows what to do here. Except this time Bruce decides he's not taking it anymore and he starts trying to break down the bathroom door and eventually succeeds in busting the door down, I guess.
So he breaks the door down.
And so he he he comes into the bathroom and his kids are watching this, by the way, his kids have followed behind to see what's going on because this is so frightening for them and it's a small place. So, wow.
Basically, he starts screaming that she's a demon and she's possessed. You're possessed, you're a demon. All of this type of shit. Right, yelling at her and and telling the kids that she's a demon. Apparently, he starts he starts choking her and and hitting her in the head every once in a while with his hands at this point hitting her in the head and choking her and screaming, go away, demon, go die, die, demon.
Get out of there, demon, go demon. Screaming about demons while he's doing it. Yeah. OK, so and he's hitting her and all this type of shit. It's fucking crazy. Kids are screaming, kids are screaming.
He chokes her to the ground but doesn't kill her. She's still conscious and everything like that. So he pulls a knife out.
He pulls a pretty good sized kitchen knife out. Yeah. And he stabs her thirty two times. Oh no. In front of his children. Oh my. Thirty two times in the face, chest and neck. Oh they are fucked up. Just hacking away the whole time. Screaming Die demon die my God. And things of that die demon die kill the demon. I'm killing the die demon. Get out of there demon everything demon be gone. I mean screaming about everything from the pamphlet.
I don't know if the pamphlets said to stab somebody thirty two times but I'm sure it said to you know read you've got to verbally cast out the demon and to event the body to get the demons out. Yeah. Stabs her thirty two times. That's a lot all over the place. Yeah. This is just everywhere. Her whole front of her body basically overkill complete. I mean it didn't take that much to kill her.
So at the time of this he then he turns to his kids. Oh no. And he tells them that well mom is possessed by a demon. And what happened is I had to cut the demon out of her. Yeah. Now that the demons out of her, we need to pray over her.
All three of us, if we all get down and pray on top of her body, come to the body and pray over. No, she'll come back to life now.
The demons gone. Oh, boy. Now there's no more demons. Yeah, so.
But I'm twelve. Dad and I have a health class. Come on, get going to work.
Yeah. He then turned to his kid, his nine year old son hugged him, said come on buddy, let's bring Mommy back to life. OK, the demons gone like this is great now the demons go like he was like, we did it, kids, now let's bring her back, literally hugging them like they just did something special. Like that's that's our tree. This year, we're going to cut it down. I don't know what's so brings the kids over.
Imagine the amount of blood that's in this room and the mom looks terrible. Oh, yeah. This is clearly the worst they've ever seen. Thirty two stab wound. He's going to set them down next to her. And thirty two stab wounds. His blood is just everywhere. Puddles, pools and all over the walls.
It's all over everything. He's going to bring the kids in there. Kneel down in your mother's blood, kid, and let's pray over her. That way she'll come back to life. All right.
So he does it.
Obviously, she doesn't come back to life because he stabbed her thirty two fucking times. So at that point he starts to realize that she's not coming back. He said he expected her to come back to life right up. It's like I thought she'd just come right up and we prayed over and like I did my part. Yeah. You know, I've been praying and nothing happened, but so he starts to realize it.
So now he gets, you know, apoplectic about the whole thing. Now he's now he's like, oh, no, this is terrible. So he and his God damn it, he made his nine year old son. He makes him help bring Barbara's body into the bed.
They take it, they take her body and they place it in Bruce and Barbara's bed.
And then he crawls up next to her and goes to sleep.
Oh, goes to sleep. Oh, what?
How do you sleep? He curled up next to the woman he stabbed the shit out of while his kids are wandering around awake and he's like, knock not kids. It's nap time.
Daddy needs a nap. Wow. What how do you do that? I have had dismounts where we're like do.
Yeah. Like a couple of weeks ago the guy, you know, the bathroom of his business and it's like, hey, I've, you know, come on, you're hot.
Then you're going to be the first suspect. Their body like it's he was going for. It's so obvious that, you know, that can't be me. Be me. Yeah. Whereas this is like, well, shit.
I don't understand why you've got too many witnesses. You've got not too many. Too many. Too many. Yeah. And then also it's your fucking wife and you've moved in. There's so much evidence. Yeah. Not to mention you can't play with this. No. And you're kids you're going to, you're not thinking about. Oh why should my kids probably and here.
Going to need somebody to talk to him. Yeah. I should probably talk to them about this.
He was like taking a nap. Now how fucking what those kids are thinking. Well I mean it's because they don't know if you're nine, you don't know what the hell is going on. And if your dad says your dad, who is your dad and you think knows things, if he says Mommy's coming back to life, you brother, I guess Mommy's coming back to life, right? No, I didn't think that's how it worked. But I don't I haven't seen that many movies.
How the fuck do I know? I'm nine. I'm nine. I don't know. Shit.
I still think a giant bunny brings me candy. Right. Which it does children.
So there you go.
Anyway, he places her in the bed, crawls next to her, falls asleep, falls asleep for a while. How long till? Well, we're not sure of the exact amount of time, but we know how he woke up. He's awake to state troopers knocking on his door. OK, that's a problem. State police officers banging on his door and identifying on Michigan State Police.
Which is. That'll wake you up. Oh, hey, I'm up now. You're. Whoa, what's up with that?
Apparently, the kid's scared shitless and probably just traumatized as all hell had wandered out of the house and went over to a neighbor's house just to I don't even know. They don't even know what they were doing. They just ended up like in a neighbor's yard. A neighbor came out and said, hey, guys, you're right, because they're small and they have blood all over them. It's also nobody to tell them not to. That's the other thing.
Dad sleeping next to Mom's corpse. And, you know, also most of the time, nine year old boys aren't covered in blood. Yeah, usually not spatter anyway. Maybe a cut on there near their elbow, but it's not spatter on the face and, you know, kneeling in a pool of it.
I have to think there's a part of a child's mind that saw that and knows that they don't want to be in that house either. So they're going to suck out. You know, you just saw Dad commit atrocious violence. You have to think, well, what if dad? And it's in a way to where that wasn't how dad normally acts. What if he acts like that with me? I mean, that's just survival. Even at nine. Some people have that.
And if I'm nine and I just believe what my dad says now, there's a demon loose in the house, I got to get the fuck out. That's the other thing.
What if it did get out? It's going to be in me next. And the other thing is to this guy, I know it's you know, this he's gone to this extreme here, but his kids are around him all the time. They know if he's a little right.
You know, he's a little they can gauge the seriousness of the situation if your dad's not, you know, if your parents are nuts, you know, if you need to get away from situations and you know you know that as a kid. I mean, it's yeah, we have, you know, a little antenna for abuse like that, or every kid has it real, like, hey, yeah, this is uncomfortable for me. So I don't know if the kids knew, like, OK, Dad's finally lost it or what, but they went next door.
State police officers knocking on the door, identifying themselves. He says at this point, it's clear at this point that he looks over. His wife is dead.
Absolutely. I mean, she's been dead for a couple of hours now. He's been sleeping next door. She's called and she's blue. She ain't coming back, you know, one of those deals. So he's like, shit, that didn't work. I thought that was supposed to work.
Like the fucking pamphlet said, damn it, demons deep.
Well, only one thing I can do now, but, you know, well, obviously, open the door, turn yourself in in a minute, or you can grab the same knife and plunged it into your chest repeatedly, which is what he chooses to do. That's commitment.
He takes a same knife he murdered his wife with and just repeatedly plunges in with chest, gets about four pretty good stab wounds. And it was chest before he kind of falls over and passes out. Yeah. And that's how the state police find him. Wow, what a bloody knife in his hand. Dead wife on the bed. Quite the scene to walk into. Unbelievable. And I don't know if you if anybody's ever heard this, but it's very hard to put a knife through just blood.
It's easier for someone else to do it. But for you to get the force to put to you through here, it's meant to protect your heart. That's why your sternum in your chest, all that's there so doesn't want things to go through it. It's pretty hard to get through. You really got to have some force to get through that cartilage almost and run it alone.
Yeah, it's yeah. If you're going to do it yourself. But he, he had a pretty good stab wounds on himself. It's pretty interesting. So he does that sort of stabs himself in the chest and then got back into the got back into bed and so he could pass out in bed because he will later say if he died, he figured that if he was next to his wife, then they would go together. OK, that's how that works.
You got to physically cuddle up and then you're yeah, she would meet her spirit, like in the attic, probably end up on the roof, maybe way. Yeah, she's up fixing the TV and was going to pop like it's like a cobie to Shackley. It's weird that she's Wavves. She's like you're going to whoop. I'm getting too close to the rim bro. You got to throw it up. You're at the three point line and end up here kub throw it man.
I'm ready. So yeah he says that I'm not returning to life. Shit. What am I going to do here. That's where the police find him in the position of in the bed.
Yeah. Bleeding and bleeding out there. He's taken to the hospital and he made at the hospital, he met his family and friends came and he made statements to the effect that he screwed up his life, screwed up everything and quote, that his wife wasn't supposed to die. She wasn't supposed to die.
Yeah, I read I read that pamphlet from front to back and skipped a step. Yeah.
Imagine if the Internet was around. You could have got that guy to do anything. Yeah. This is a fucking pamphlet. Yeah. I mean, that could be shoddily printed. Oh, boy. You need money to print a decent pamphlet or someone knows that you have no backing. He'd fall for everything.
Oh, anybody can put together a slick looking website that you can fool. People are slick. Look, many social media presence, anything like that.
Many times what he paid his IRS bills need to be paid.
Hey, that all the Nigerian princes will be sitting pretty. Yeah, he would be doing terribly. Some of the extended warranty. You going say all the extended. I'm Chris Wallace would know him by I'm sorry. Chris Wallace. Chris fucking. Oh Chris.
Yeah. Chris Anderson. Chris Hansen. Chris Wallace. Chris Hansen would know him by a first name, but he would just have been trolled into like, you know, Chris Wallace would do a show interviewing him about how many times he's seen Chris and see what I mean. And he didn't even know what he was doing. He just fooled into meeting what he thought was kids in need or kids. I'm not here for that. Yeah. I don't want to fuck kids at the boy.
Wow. I'm here for the extended warranty.
I'm here to get the paperwork for my dishwasher's stuff with that. That's what I'm here for. My windshield just chips in as chips. They say they'll replace it for free and go on. And here I am. That's just a kid. What up with that?
So, wow, he's taken to the hospital. Like I said, hospital psychiatrist, not surprisingly, diagnosed him as acutely psychotic upon admission, screaming, My wife wasn't supposed to die. The demons were supposed to come out. Yeah, I tried to stab myself in the chest just to air on the side of safety. Let's let's hang on to him for a couple of days and do a little once-Over before we decide his fucking mental acuity here. So he's arrested at that point, obviously, and while he's going to the hospital.
You're still he'll be in the hospital, you're still under arrest. You're not going anywhere. Yeah, he he the psychiatrist evaluated him two days later, diagnosis him as acute psychosis, having that and also acute paranoid schizophrenia as well, losing his shit. In other words, pretty much the report also indicated that his mental status was, quote, religious paranoid ideation and severe impairment of reality orientation and his actions following his paranoid delusions. Those are not that's not a sentence you want a psychiatrist to say about, you know, probably any of that, really.
You could take any of that.
That's also a good indicator of how if you're not capable of of of understanding something is religion is very much like drugs, too much of it too soon or too fast or too consistently. It can really fuck you up.
Yeah. Oh, I agree. And that's what happened. I agree. It's like he ate a shitty acid.
Sex, drugs and religion can can hit a young brain wrong. You know what I mean. And I'm not saying they'll take your kids to church saying that at all. So I'm just saying that some some kids, some people's brains aren't ready for that yet sometimes. And that's all. So sometimes who knows, he had a sheet of Jesus.
He had a little too much a little too much for him.
And that's what happens. It's moderation is great. So they said the evaluation concerning the influence of his religious beliefs and delusions is consistent with further testimony that comes up here establishing that. Here's some facts that they've established. Once they get him in here about ten weeks before the stabbing incident is when his mother gave him the religious pamphlet, which she described as containing case histories of casting out demons. So it was like a timeline of like, oh, my, this is how we cast out that demon.
And I bet stabbing was involved some way in 1872. You have to open a hole so the demons can liikanen out. Otherwise they're trapped in there. Can't get out the mouth of the butthole. Demons don't fly out the butthole.
Jesus like you don't even read there are too big, too big to get off your butt. How stupid they can do about the shows us. Some people are just ignorant, uneducated people. Six inches in the chest. You'd need a gaping wound. What I'm saying about hole going to be too small. Come on, think before you say shoulders and wings don't fit.
Oh man. Big wings, big sparks coming off of a table and then never get out of there. So also, approximately ten weeks before the stabbing incident, while Ramsey here, they say, while engaging with sexual intercourse with a woman other than his wife, became convinced that the woman was a devil or a demon, became frightened, quit the act of intercourse and believing the event to be a sign from God to stop cheating on his wife, Mike prayed together with the woman.
And then, yeah, he that the day before the murder was the clogged choke incident and then getting in his car and hearing, you know, every rose needs a wife to stay with and she's a demon. So be careful about that.
If you stab her, they'll come out and then I'll just every song named after a girl. That's all it is. Yeah. Amanda, Barbara Sue, Barbara Sue, Peggy Sue. Barbara Ann was that family guy they had that one said, yeah, we name off.
So he goes, what is it like a little sing this one song named after a girl Stewie like one hundred and five twenty more than fifty are a band.
Sarah Yeah. So that Billie Jean. Yeah. Does the five and he hits on the Nintendo shit Mandy Amand. So I know it's every girl's name has a song and credit. Seth commits to a joke and he finds every song, everybody rattles them off. I don't mind you, I don't mind the beat the joke into the ground. It's like why not. Where else are you going for the next 30 seconds. And again they're going to do it.
Yes. It's another thirty seconds and you're watching it anyway. So relax. Let yourself like it.
Fun then silly. Just go. Oh, I guess you're right. That's right. So.
So he's charged, not surprisingly, charged with first degree murder. And before the trial, though, he files his notice of intention to assert a defense of insanity. Oh, which does not again, not surprising. And before the trial, the Ramsey trial, that move that the statute, quote, providing a defendant who asserts a defense of insanity may be found guilty, but mentally ill, he says, should be declared unconstitutional. So they're filing a thing to you can be found guilty, not guilty, not guilty by reason of insanity, guilty, but mentally ill.
Those are the options. So. He's trying to they're trying to establish beforehand that one of the options that the legislation has laid out, that's the state law, is not constitutional within.
If I'm found that, then I'm clearly innocent because that's exactly. So they're laying the groundwork for a basically that's the one they're going for and they're laying the groundwork to be able to appeal. That is not a thing. And that that's how that works. So going to legalise bullshit. Sure. So, yeah, one other thing that happens, they he says that they ask that the jury not be instructed on that verdict. He asked that that not be included.
And the judge says no. So then Ramsey files a waiver of his right to a jury trial. So it's just a bench trial in front of the judge. Yes, the judge. Just the judge, which I don't think that's smart. That's dangerous. If you're going for this type of thing, if you're going to say, like, I'm crazy and demons and all that, you have a better chance of convincing regular people you have a better chance of having 12 people that are like you than one judge.
That is absolutely not going to be like, yeah, well, that's the thing.
Those 12 people also don't see a million murder cases and things like that. So to them, this is all some big exciting thing, whereas the judges like it. You're just a killer idiot, just like the last killer idiot I had last week. Your demons are the same as he needed crack money, same shit. Get the fuck out of my court, you know what I mean? So I don't think that's why our judges are a lot more cynical and jaded than a regular person going in a jury pool.
Yeah, especially in a murder trial.
Feel like people feel forced into juries if it's like you're going for like some kind of theft or something. Nobody wants to sit there for that. You don't want to judge people for shit like that. But if it's murder, people like, well, this is important. I need to do my civic duty to put this person and a judge will sit and watch and listen to all the evidence.
And he right now, as he or she right now has an opinion of the law and based on fucking hundreds of years of law, they're scoring it as they go. You get hammered out of his mouth right then. Whereas these 12, we're going to go sit in a room for three for literally talk about it. Yeah. Literally discuss what our statement's going to be.
No judge knows exactly while he's here and stuff all that's bullshit. Not believing that. OK, that's bullshit. It's two to one to do so. Now, his lawyer, Ramsey's lawyer, if he's charged with first degree murder, his lawyer's name is Laucke is his last name. What the hell is his first name? It's here somewhere. I'll find it, but I'll lock. Is this first and last name El?
You, L.A., you speak. And he figured that a jury would be disturbed enough by the details of the killing to find Ramsey guilty but mentally ill rather than not guilty by reason of insanity. He said basically, yeah, the jury is going to hear about him stabbing his wife thirty two times in front of his kids, then making his kids kneel down in the blood. And they're not going to give a fuck about how crazy is. They're going to want to put the word guilty on him somewhere.
And that's the easy one, too. That's like that's the, you know, to say guilty, but mentally ill takes everything off the jury. Yeah. We don't think he's right in that. We also think he's guilty. So it's everybody gets what they want, basically. And it's a skill. It's an easy one. It's a it's that is the ultimate like in this case, that's the ultimate act of omission for a jury.
It's like, well, I'm going to back off and just I could slam dunk this little Abbo and have nothing.
You could make a decision. Is he full of shit or is he crazy? What's one pick which one he is? Because obviously it's one of the two, but they have this weird one there. He says if found guilty but mentally ill, Ramsey would be sentenced to prison where he would be entitled to receive psychiatric treatment. If found not guilty by reason of insanity, he would be sent to a state center for forensic psychiatry. There you go.
And then at the end of 60 days, they evaluate him. And if he's not mentally ill, he'd be released. That's the that's the difference. If you're not guilty by reason of insanity, they lock you up till you're not dangerous anymore, which could be ten years. Two months. Yeah, it's there's an evaluation process, one that doesn't know. Yeah. Where he's guilty. But mentally ill means you go to prison and they'll you know, you can go see a shrink once a month.
That's what that means. So it's basically nothing. Right. It just makes the jury feel better about giving a guilty verdict. Yeah. It's all it is way it's a way to it's a way to cut down on not guilty by insanity. You're just a warning of a head doctor. That's all it is. And they don't even get that as we'll talk about it. It's really not it doesn't really happen that much.
So, yeah, he repeatedly attacked the guilty but mentally ill verdict as unconstitutional. And that's become his tactic. And apparently doctors admitted that those imprisoned under the verdict don't receive adequate psychiatric treatment. They say they just put that there as a red flag to the prison. Oh, that's basically how they flag somebody. So the prison does up. Keep an eye on that crazy fuck. That's the way they look at it. Not that they're crazy, but.
Yeah, but, yeah, keep an eye on them. That's a person we can just give some pills and throw in a corner and not worry about shit like that so much. Again, not really treating anything at that point. So according to defense.
Testimony, Ramsey exhibited an unusual elation here this day on February 30, 1977, prior to the time he killed his wife.
During that day, he consumed whiskey, beer and weed. That's the other thing. So. He had this fervent religiosity and then like wasn't there and he's banging women and then he shouldn't be doing it, so he's praying about it, but then he sees signs from God. But then he also wants to smoke weed and drink whisky, which he's not supposed to do in his in his moral system either.
So I don't know what he's doing here. So anyway, in the late afternoon, he called his mother in Kentucky, told her he had returned to God and felt wonderful. He felt like he just had him a just a beautiful shot to speed up his butthole, feeling good. He Ramsey's mother was a Southern Baptist and a real, you know, a hill person, Southern Baptist. She originally had, I guess, years earlier, earlier that year, had given him two books on witchcraft and the occult.
And he had he had given he had read them. And then they they were talking about it on his visit. And that's when she was like, maybe this pamphlet, Mom, now that you know what exists, that's how you get rid of it. Right.
So just why why I watch too much. That's deep.
So, yeah, the Ramsey children here both indicated their father's conversations were incomprehensible that night. He would say shit, they didn't understand things that were non sequiturs, things that didn't have anything to do with what they were talking about. The kids were very confused. They were like, what's wrong with that? But if he's drunk and stoned and he hasn't been smoking weed, drinking whiskey for that long. Right. He's not going to make a lot of sense.
So they can't really handle it. Yeah, yeah. If you don't have a big whiskey tolerance, do you start drinking whiskey? That's where you start with your booze. That's wild. You're not going to be able to do much. And if you don't smoke weed that much, if you start smoking weed and you mix it with whiskey, you're not going to be able to do shit but fall asleep.
It's going to be shocking that you got whiskey down your throat and enough to get you drunk if you're drinking a lot. Well, that's exactly. Yeah, there you go. Do because it's absurd.
It's not a good yeah. That's not really a good drink and drink. He had to mix that. Yeah.
So sometime after 9:00 is when he demanded that his wife leave the bedroom where she'd gone to be alone. And so we said and ordered her out. She got up, locked herself in the bathroom when he broke the door and, and began choking her and hitting her. At first he kept saying, love me over and over again like we're a God thing, love me. And then that's when he was like, I got to get the demon out because she was trying not to be choked to death on not loving him.
So that's not loving him. That that's the demon fighting back. So if you stab her, the demon will float out and then she'll be fine, as though that's what he's positing.
Anyway, he testifies. Oh, boy, you have to if you're happy. I guess if you're saying I'm crazy, you can't just sit there with your hands folded. You have to go up there and tell them what the fuck is wrong with you right away.
So he told the court this is a room full of adults in broad daylight. Yeah. So isn't it 2:00 in the morning, everybody with a bunch of booze in them or anything with the bar lights just coming up?
No, tell them to go. People put in play bartender putting stools up on the bar. That's not that it is. You know, noon people have just eating lunch. People are picking Turkey out of their teeth right now. So he said that when he choked her, he saw her eyes grow cloudy and her tongue come out of her mouth.
Yeah, because, you know, a woman dying, that means.
Yeah, that means you're cutting off her oxygen. But he said he became convinced that this was actually the devil coming out of her. So him choking her, that happened. He said it's working.
That's called life is coming out of her mouth. Yeah, he's mistaken. He must allow demons for a life. So he said it's working. It's working. Let me do now. I have to do more. You know, the devil's trying to hang on here. That's why she's not dead. So let me get a knife and I'll stab the devil out of her and then she'll be good. So he says her tongue came out of her mouth.
He became convinced this was the devil coming out. His daughter at some point called for help. I called somebody called one of the neighbors for help that's going on that we just can't place into as kids.
We don't know where to put it. This isn't the realm of normal in this house. Yeah, it's weird here. Weird that weirder than usual. So he called. She called for help. Ramsey then left her still alive and gasping on the floor from the choking. That's when he got the knife and stabbed her a whole bunch and then grabbed his son and alongside him and made her pray over, made him pray over the body. The boy said in court that because they had to testify, the kids watch your mother's dad.
Now this Jesus Christ. The boy said that he heard his father say something like, quote, She died for her sin son, which was not doing do anything. She just was alive and was married to your crazy ass. So at that point and that's when he placed to the. Son said that he helped place the wife's bed body in bed under the covers, he got under the covers next door. Jesus Christ, he said that? Wow.
He literally said that he thought she would wake up devil 3:00 in the morning, OK, if we both went to bed and then, like, the alarm would go up and she'd get up and go, oh, what a night I had.
Wow. I'll tell you, you know, you're not supposed to have Mexican or like Indian before you go to bed or like Italian, a source and that sort of thing. But then when you have a demon in you. Yeah, that just knocks it right out of you.
Boy, do I have heartburn. Well, it's a physiological tragedy right here. It's just a sip of her. Yeah. And it all comes out of her mouth sometimes it's like curry.
You feel like that's what's have that before you go to bed. But man, I'll tell you what, when you have a demon in you before sleep and you get a stab at it, it is just. Yeah, well, you want coffee?
I'm going to go make a pot like that's what he said was going to happen, what he said. So I don't even know what to say about that. So only when he heard the state police outside the door, he said, oh, I just killed my wife.
Yeah, that's what happened. Wow. Cops were snapping a reality for oh, shit. That's when he started plunging the knife into his chest on his own. Now, obviously, there's going to be some psychological testimony here. Clearly, this isn't going to go without a doctor testifying. No one can know Lehmann's going to talk about this. Expert testimony was received from three psychiatrists. The defense called Dr. Emanuel. Tain't Tanay who testified that Ramsey was acutely psychotic and legally insane at the time of the stabbing.
Yeah, he's definitely insane. Legally is not my I don't I don't know. And he's fucking.
Yeah, a normal person doesn't do that. As I've said before, a little fucking banjar there. That's not know, especially with the kids. They're screaming, die, demon, die. If it's an act, it's a pretty good act to put on. Normally people don't do the act during the murder. You act later. Yeah.
You know, like the murderer like that is usually a spur of the moment in the heat of the moment crazed moment that you didn't expect. And that's why this is happening. Yeah. Then later on, you're like, she had the devil in her, right? You know, this is a man who chose this path. He's telling the kids, like, OK, that's part of it. Now come pray and she'll come back to life. Like, I don't know if he believe that or not.
So the people also call called Dr. Irving Edgar and Dr. Phillip Margolis. That's the state calling these people. Dr. Edgar testified on direct examination that Ramsey knew right from wrong and was not psychotic at the time he attacked his wife. It's hard to say. On cross-examination, however, he did testify, Dr. Richter, that in view of the entire incident, Ramsey was probably psychotic following the choking of his wife. Now, for him to go, good, the devil is coming out.
It's working better. Go get a knife and finish it off. Yeah. So at that point, he was probably psychotic. And you know what? I'm not a psychiatrist, but I'm going to agree with him. What do you think? Yeah, I think it's a little crazy what he was doing there. He said that the stabbing was, quote, bizarre behavior and probably psychotic.
Dongdaemun die while you stab with your kids watching. I'd call that psychotic. It's unbelievable. It's something. Yeah, not fucking right. I'll tell you that. So, yeah. Then the people. Wow. He said that Dr. Margolis testified that he was not that he was either nuts. Was he legally insane, either legally insane or mentally ill at the time of the incident? That's the other one. So we have dueling psychiatrists, which is what they all you can get ten experts and five are going to say one thing because it's a subjective word.
So unless someone is you know, there's very few people that everyone agrees on the diagnosis, even Jeffrey Dahmer, there was differing opinions on all on everybody.
Yeah, absolutely. Nutty stuff.
It's it's really so that's why when you look at, like John Douglas, they just they just looked at it in terms of behavior and didn't put all the other stuff out of it, because otherwise, how do you judge a clinical diagnoses?
It's going to be there's so many.
Yeah, it's it's it's wild. So psychiatrists caused by the call, by the defense, by the prosecution in the defense differed over whether he was mentally ill or insane. At the time of the killings, Dr. Emanuel Tanay testified that the for the defense that Ramsey was acutely psychotic and legally insane at the time. A lengthy taped interview between Ramsey and the doctor today was played to the court. And so they played this whole thing. And he's like, see, he's pretty out there.
Yeah, he's pretty wacky where he was talking about the pamphlet and he's talking about demons. And he was like, OK, we're going to wake up and have a demon free life from the rest of our lives. Brother, it was beautiful. It's going to be beautiful, like a like an awakening in his own words. In his own words. So the Doctor Margolis testified for the prosecution, though, that Ramsey wasn't mentally ill, which countered contradicted this guy.
So they keep going back and forth. Dr. Irving Edgar testifying for the prosecution initially has to. That he wasn't psychotic and that it was possible that the demon story was fabricated on cross-examination, though, Dr. Akhter testified that he was not sure if Ramsey knew right from wrong when he was choking his wife and that he was probably psychotic after that. So no consensus on anything that not only did the psychiatrist disagree with each other, but they disagree with themselves, depending on who's asking the question in this particular case.
So not helpful. No, put it that way. So if you're on the defensive, say if you're on the jury, you'd be like, I don't know.
I don't fucking know anybody here, a psychiatrist because I don't know what's happening. Whereas if you're the judge, he judges also think they know everything.
That's another thing. Good point. So Ramsey seeing of demons was basically the prosecution says his seeing of demons was conveniently manufactured because he knew it would be a good defense. So he said as he was killing his wife, he was weeks before that he was basically planning this pre preplanning, the murder and the effect and the defense all ahead of time, well ahead of time, which takes a lot of discipline. And I feel like this guy doesn't have, I don't know, seems a bit reckless.
Exactly. I feel like he just kind of went off the deep end. But the prosecutor said this whole religious thing is a smokescreen. He is no more religious than anyone else. Well, he might read it differently now, I think. Yeah.
I mean, I know about more or less, but he's certainly not less than anybody else either.
I didn't think of it as a competition whose morals I believe in God more than this mother fucker. I'll tell you what. And so if I don't kill my wife over demons, he sure as shit can kill is that's what it sounds like. He's competitive. This guy, I think he's competing for the blue ribbon.
I feel like it is like he ain't everybody in this courtroom believe in God more than him. Tell you what, I don't know what he's trying to do here. But, yeah, he said that he's no more religious than anything else. He noted that two of the three psychiatrists to testify in the case claim that Ramsey was able to differentiate between right and wrong at the time of his wife's killing, the inability to discriminate between right and wrong as part of the legal definition of insanity, and that the you know, the third one disagreed.
But they all said they all agreed that he never exhibited psychotic behavior in his life prior to killing his wife. This never happened before us. I mean, this this, like, weird shit fervor and all this is brand new. This just came out of nowhere. Pamphlet, post pamphlet just lost his shit, started acting weird over a certain time.
So that's I mean, it came out of nowhere like he had a head injury or something, but he did have a head injury. So it's very, very, very, very strange. The prosecutor also argued that he killed his wife because she rejected him that night. That was the argument that was had had nothing to do with anything else except he she rejected him and he snapped and killed her. OK, if something he's saying, it's something very basic rather than something very grandiose.
All right. He said, quote, I do not feel this is the type of individual or the type of act that the legislature sought to protect under the insanity provision.
I don't know. I don't know either. It's a really hard thing to say. Closing arguments in the trial were heard here. Ramsey had, like we said, waived his right here. Fred Laucke is the attorney. My friend is his name, not the anybody gives a shit.
But we kind of got to tell that stuff in detail, attention to detail.
So he thought he thought that he would have an unlikelihood of having a sympathetic jury. So he's waiting for the verdict, the verdict and hear the verdict is here. He's tried on first degree murder. That's the try the charge. Wayne County Circuit Judge Peter V. Spivack lessens the charge to second degree murder before the verdict. Interesting. He he well, the jury. Can you can you get a lesser charge? Yeah.
So he does that. And the judge said there was not enough evidence of premeditation to even consider a conviction of first degree murder, because unless you believed that for weeks he was setting up this big thing, which is pretty elaborate to believe. You know, that's a you can't just say that definitely is true then. Other than that, it just sounds like he lost his shit.
Yeah, but it just depends too, doesn't it, upon how far does premeditation have to go? Because he knocked on that door and was holding the knife. Right. Well, that's that's the act of holding. That's the act. So holding the knife at the door is included in the act. That would be. Did he set something up earlier to plan to kill her? Is he setting up a defense ahead of time? So that's the that's what the prosecution is trying to put up, is his whole defense is is evidence that he was setting it up as evidence of premeditation, him acting like with all this demon shit for a couple of weeks, that is evidence of him setting up the building.
Is straw man OK? Which that's a step. You can't prove that a long swing.
That's a long. Exactly. You got to take it, I guess, if you're the prosecutor. But the judge does not accept that, though. It's a swing and a miss for the judge. And the judge said there was not enough evidence for that. He he's going to be sentenced. He could be given a maximum. Of life in prison and imprisonment with psychiatric care while in prison, if he had been acquitted by reason of insanity, like we said, he could be out in two months for his longest as short as two months.
The circuit judge comes back and finds him guilty of second degree murder, but mentally ill as well. So that's the thing. Guilty, but mentally ill. That's good news. Which is different now to talk about that, because it's a weird thing. So I found some stature here. What are some statute? We'll talk here. Maybe they said the major purpose in creating the guilty by mentally ill verdict is obvious. It was to limit the number of persons who in the eyes of the legislature or improperly being relieved of all criminal responsibility in the way of the insanity verdict.
That's what it was.
In reality, people are there's people who are mentally fucking ill, seriously mentally ill, and they do crimes. And you have to figure out what to do with them. And in reality, again, people in the world, in the streets, just people sitting in their houses, they don't want to hear that somebody, quote, got off on something. So if you say, oh, well, they're mentally ill, will be sent to a hospital, they're now angry at home because they want that person to be in a prison instead of a hospital.
Because the hospitals too good. Because, you know, 70s mental hospitals were just so cushy, you know, tied to a fucking wall drug. Drooling on yourself was very cushy position to be in. And that goes from everything from car theft to fucking murder. Exactly what I watch at Rikers Island documentary. That's a wing for those for the people that are fucking. And they are they're very mentally ill served. No, there's a lot of disturbed people.
There's no anybody know there's still dangerous.
So, yeah, the legislatures are putting a point in the 70s where they have to people are going to vote them the fuck out and things like that if they don't take a harder stance and don't let people off on these mental illnesses. But in reality, people are mentally ill. Yeah.
So what are you supposed to do to soften the blow and that into account? You can't. And as people in the legislature, they can't like, say, hey, children, as the adults here, I can understand your feelings are you want people to suffer. But the reality of the world is some people are fucking crazy. And sorry if that makes you upset and you think they're getting off with tough shit and no one's going to tell the public that.
Also, it's our responsibility as a civilized society to fucking manage that. Exactly. And if that responsibility falls on us to because, look, that's our safety.
That's exactly you're 100 percent right. So they said that. That's all that's the defense is saying basically that's the only reason is to not have insanity verdicts. And that's what it is. They found a scapegoat where the jury could still stick a guy in prison and not feel like everyone's going to be mad at them for saying not guilty. But they can be like, but we thought he was mentally ill and that that does something which really it just makes them like I said, it just makes them medicate and probably at some point in jail.
So they said that the as stated in the House analysis of the bill creating the verdict, one argument in favor of the verdict was that this verdict would help juries. They said perhaps there seems to be a tendency for people to assume that someone who commits a particularly offensive crime must be insane. We see that a lot. You see the guy in Baraboo, you go, how's that not crazy? You has pocket, Robin. Not crazy. How's you know Rulo?
Not crazy. How's Phillips, Oklahoma? There's a million of them. Jesus. Two hundred.
And still on top of that. Even be crazy even with that have to be crazy, but you still have to take into account the the severity of the crime.
And if it's fucking just a batch like this is bad. Yeah. That doesn't happen. No, it's it's wild. So, so the punishment has to fit the crime. Yeah.
Yeah. They said juries sometimes the defendants are not legally insane. And although it may well have been the intent of the jury that the defendants be committed for a long period of time, they were automatically released because when they would find someone not guilty by reason of insanity in the jury's mind, they're going to be put in a mental hospital and we put in a facility. But they don't realize that they could be let out in 60 days, which is not what their sentencing.
I'm telling you, judge them not guilty. You want your brother away for a minute.
There is no in-between. There should be a sentence to a hospital maybe, or something like that. But they don't have that. They either have a prison sentence and you're mentally ill. So they know you're they don't think of you as anything but crazy. They don't actually help you or your go to a hospital and you can be let out at some point. There's there's no they never found a middle ground there, which is interesting. They said people argue that the purpose of enacting the guilty but mentally ill verdict was to require judges, juries and counsel to focus on the critical issue in any insanity case, criminal responsibility, as well as the frequently distracting issue of mental illness to quote, eliminate the substantiality, reduce inappropriate insanity verdicts by compelling all participants to focus on the distinct issues.
In each case, with hope at the fact finding process, we'll have less confusion and we'll be more likely to pursue, produce and act. Factual results. OK. So, yeah, they're saying just gives you more options. The Michigan Psychiatric Society here branch of the American Psychiatric Society also contends that the guilty but mentally ill verdict is unconstitutional because it creates an irrational distinction. This makes sense as well. The Society of the Society contends that in psychiatric terms, the definition of mental illness and insanity are the same fucking thing, OK?
They're saying that's the same thing. So legally, if you're saying that you're you're deeming them insane, you're legally that words have meanings. And if you're that's the legal thing, then you're not that's the you're doing it wrong is what they're saying. They're saying at least call it something different if you're going to do that, he said. We note that the claim was contradicted by the testimony of a psychologist, Dr. Steven Bank, who found that. Never mind that.
So anyway, a study for the Center for Forensic Psychiatric Psychiatry in September of 74 indicated that some three hundred fifty persons found not guilty by reason of insanity. Only 20 percent of them suffered from mental illness sufficient to exculpate them from their crimes.
So Outpost's study, basically one in five were actually nuts and everybody else was, you know, putting it on for extra for the deal. 30 percent of those persons were found to have no mental illness whatsoever of everybody examined nothing. They were just it was a total act. The remaining 50 percent were viewed as having some psychosis or neurosis, but with no evident relationship between their mental state and their crime. So that's fine. We would mean you would be falling into that category.
So the verdict of not guilty by reason of insanity determines a defendant's mental state at the time of the crime, not afterwards. So it doesn't matter if you're fine.
Now, the way the law is written, not guilty by reason of insanity is supposed to be where are you crazy? Then when you did the crime based on the act, you could have got help and be better now.
So that's that's what mental health is. But at the time where you crazy. That's not what that's not how it's done in court. If you if you sit there, look at normal in court, no one's going to say, oh, he was crazy at the time. You have to be fucking crazy in court. They don't even say Charles Manson was crazy. It's true. And I mean, come on.
Crazy, pretty fucking crazy. Or or an FBI agent.
Well, he also I don't think I don't think Charles Manson knew what he was doing. I think he was pretty much programmed that way. Yeah. To from fuck everything up. They had a plan there. Read that chaos book. It's really Tom O'Neil. It's pretty interesting.
A lot of bullshit, I think maybe. But also a lot of like here's a bunch of documents and I'll read them. It's like, oh, well, that's really that's just a document from the government. And it's pretty, pretty damning, you know, one of those things. So from the sixties and shit, that doesn't matter. Now the Good Stuff wants to know about now. So anyway, they said that view of these statistics, a number of persons released after this.
And unless treatment of the mentally ill has progressed far beyond the level of which we are aware, one can hardly conclude that the legislature was irrational in fighting the insanity verdict to have been misused.
Nor the available statistics support the claim that the jury compromise is actually occurring prior to the adoption of the guilty but mentally ill verdict. His point is zero to four. It's like a blood alcohol level. Percent of adult males arrested were found to be not guilty by reason of insanity. Think of that one quarter of one percent. And that's what people are freaked out. That's what people are so fucking mad about, because one quarter of one percent of people are found to be insane.
But when that happened, it was publicized. So people when everyone's getting off on insanity verdicts, No. One quarter of one fucking percent, which now I'm sorry, that's not even a quarter. That's point zero to for the last quarter. A quarter. That's of a tenth.
So little few people there are more people insane on your train when you ride into work.
Yeah. Oh by far. Jesus. Probably a lot more there. And in nineteen eighty two point zero three, two percent of adult males arrested were found not guilty by reason of insanity. So it's not a lot of people now, not a lot of people. So the statistics, you know, they can basically you can interpret them to mean that the guilty but mentally ill verdict, having not increased insanity verdicts, has actually been completely irrelevant because that was the point.
I was supposed to reduce them and they're exactly the same, if not even more.
So let's to somebody that's in a in a small town, in some little, you know, in rural America, that one person that gets off is the son of a bitch. System's broken. That's what it is, rather than everybody else. It's fine. So the facilities here, they talk about the doctor. Dennis Jerzyk, psychiatric director of the Office of Health Care for the Department of Corrections, has a long handled Jesus Christ. He testified that at the time of this hearing, over thirteen thousand six hundred inmates were in the custody of the Department of Crime.
And an approximately 700 new inmates were admitted each month, he said the only there was only one full time psychiatrist employed by the department, one one for thirteen thousand six hundred people.
Who are in prison, most of these people could use a talk, and so you're not going to use it chat once in a while, you don't need to get off your ass just for the people that are one clinically insane. Yeah, everybody needs help. Wow. He treated patients approximately two days per week. Oh, by the way, he doesn't even work every day. It's going to get to 13000. He was assisted by three consulting psychiatrist, two psychologists and one social worker because of the inadequate number of psychiatric professionals and paraprofessionals available for conducting initial screening and evaluation of inmates at admission.
The doctor was unable to estimate how many prisoners were actually in need of psychiatric care. They couldn't even there wasn't even enough doctors to figure to figure it out how many they, you know, to make a plan to maybe do something.
If he saw eight people a day in an eight hour day, he's got 16 a week and he's got to get to thirteen thousand six hundred.
That's a lot. Yeah.
I would say he wouldn't be able to see each person, though, ever once in seven years at your parole hearing. So apart from one registered nurse who worked a daytime shift, the department did not have a professional nursing staff. And the nursing duties included, including supervising and feeding psychiatric patients and handling them, handing them medication, were performed by guards and inmates. He testified also into repeated allegations that patients were targets of physical assault, including sexual assault by inmate nurses.
Sounds right. People being able to medicate them, having power over them that are fucking inmates. Yeah, you can't do that. He also testified that the psychiatric services were performed on a crisis basis and that because of inadequate staffing and facilities, many mentally ill inmates were forced to remain in the general population where they're mentally ill. Yeah, that's just you, Rita, that new Jack and Ted Conover's the author of a book about SingSing, and he talks about how many people in there mentally ill.
He's like, it's a third of the patients at least are mentally ill. Need help, don't get any. They let him sit there and scream and bang their head against the fucking wall and get beat up by other inmates because they're sick of hearing them and shit like that. It's and they're vulnerable. They're very vulnerable. Yeah, they're not are they're dangerous too. Sometimes. Either way, they shouldn't they should need to be helped. So yeah, they said that sometimes they basically it was a waste of time because of the delay in obtaining a transfer.
Most of the transfer patients were returned right back to prison because they weren't crazy, you know, in legal terms anymore. They were having that incident anymore because it took a week to get them to talk to somebody, even though they had a huge psychiatric whatever. Anyway, the guy concluded, we don't provide adequate treatment for anyone who is mentally ill in our system. So, yeah, anyway, he has appeals and the appeals are based on sentencing for the mentally ill.
He's sentenced you, sir, may fuck off to life in prison.
Oh, for this.
But the problem is it just doesn't basically they they go through all of this and they said that the his lawyers said people are scared of Bruce Ramsey. They wonder what happens if he gets out and sees another devil. Yeah. Yeah, that's fair. He said this is the lawyer. He said, quote, I call this the devil murder case. He said, The facts are that Bruce Ramsey, a born again Christian, gets into some kind of fight with his wife, chokes and stabs her thirty two times in front of the children, all the while yelling, Let the devil out, go away, demon die.
The then forces his little boy to pray with him over the body, expecting his wife to come back to life. The police come and find him asleep in bed with his wife's body. He's like, you know, this is fucking crazy, is what he's saying. This is mentally ill. This is ridiculous. Whether you're scared he's going to see another demon or not, he either, you know, this guy should be needs some kind of help.
He said the guilty but mentally ill verdict is unconstitutional because a defendant cannot be mentally ill as defined under the law and still have needed conscious intention to commit the murder. That's what I don't understand. He says, quote, How can those two conditions exist at the same time? They're those the two are mutually exclusive. They cancel each other out. Either you're guilty or you're mentally ill. Can't be both, you know, so they just found that.
So that's that's what he says. Anyway, he also said the verdict is unfair because the judge can tell jurors that a defendant found innocent by reason of insanity could be released in as little as 60 days. That that is asking the jury to decide a case based on emotions, hey, this guy could be out in two months and not logic and evidence. Sure. The judge tells the jury not to consider it in reaching their verdict, but that's like cutting open and running in the courtroom and telling the jury not to smell it again, fair.
They're going to they're going to think about that. Absolutely. So, yeah, this is how it works. They're going to that. The prosecution during the appeal says that his Satanism is a total sham. It's all bullshit. He said that he conveniently manufactured the demon story because he knew it was a good defense. He played a pretty strong in front of his kids while he was doing it. So that's the only thing where I go. While he was killing her, though, he was yelling that shit.
So this all goes on, they there's a big appeal, a bunch of issues, including adequacy of mental care. Is he getting any care? His first it's upheld the first verdict in nineteen seventy nine. It's upheld.
Luckily, they said the trial court's findings are not clearly erroneous, not clearly erroneous, not clearly erroneous, but a little bit a little murky.
There was sufficient evidence to support all of this findings and conclusions. So they put those there. Also the daily lottery numbers that they were eight eight four in the same newspaper that they found.
So following a remand to the trial court for further factual findings, because that's one of his appeals, a remand for that. But it's not getting rid of a sentence or anything. The court granted his application for leave to appeal so he could still appeal.
Now, this case went totally under the radar after this.
I don't know what happened, but I do know that he is out of prison. He was out of prison by nineteen eighty seven oh seven years. Not only was he at 77 when it happened, not only was he out of prison by seventy seven, I don't know, or eighty seven. I don't know what the laws are for voter registration for felons in Michigan, but I don't know if it's five years to get your rights back or what the waiting period is.
Some states you can get it right away. But he is registered to vote on November 3rd. Nineteen eighty seven.
Oh my. So whatever the time period is, that's how long he has been out. So I don't know. But that's a long. That's fast. That's fast. That's really fast. Somehow he got not only got something turned over but out of prison.
He served that right. He's served a sentence for murder and then was able to vote.
That's wild. He he's still he's seventy seven years old and he's out. He's out there. He's in a small town in Michigan right now. And so will keep an eye out. If you hear anybody yelling about demons or devils, take it seriously. That motherfucker might be stabbing people. So watch out for that. Unbelievable seeing old guy waving about demons and shit. Yeah. Get on the other side of the sidewalk. Kidnapping governors. Yeah, that's good.
Who knows it's going to happen up there. He might have been a part of that. So that's everybody. Jesus Christ, what a disaster. That's Michigan. That is Brook Buffalo with the Browns. Brownstown Township. Yeah, I wanted to call it Bricktown. Brownstown Township there. Holy shit. What a weird story, I believe.
What the fuck. Yeah, how the hell. We had to wrap up all the two hundred episodes with one bowl of weird for two hundred and I have to tell everybody we have some crazy shit coming up.
I have a wild case in Maine that's I mean out there like crazy. We have one of the most barbaric, insane crime sprees I've ever heard of in my life on Long Island that we're going to do one of these days for New York. And then we have one in Oklahoma coming up. So expect those in the next three or four weeks, right. Right through the end of the new year.
If we're going to be just we're going to be killing it for lack of a better term birth of the new birth of the new year of this bullshit that said, if you like this and if you continue to listen to this, you should get on Apple podcast, give us a review. That purple icon, very important. Give us a review. It does help a lot. Drives us up the charts. We don't know why, but it does.
So if you want to help the show, that's a great way to do it. Another way to do it would be go to shut up and give me murder. Dotcom, all of your info for all the shows are there merchandise?
Get your cheer up, bitch. Sweater designs, Christmas sweater designs because they are hilarious and it comes in everything, not just sweaters, obviously t shirts and bags and whatever the hell we got on there. So check that out. So much fun. Get all your merchandise, check out the new dates for live shows as they're moved, will be reposting them and everything. And speaking of live shows, virtual live show, another one. Yes, January the twenty ninth.
And we're going to do a regular show just like we would do a live show on the road. Right. Same shit. It's going to be a live show. Pictures and all that textures. Everything. Real case. Same thing. Yeah.
The prisoner dating game was a dry run. We'll do a test run and see see how it works. And we figured out we needed better mix. So now we got that. And it's going to be a wonderful production and everything, and we can't wait to present that to everybody out there. So we tickets are not on sale yet. When they are on sale, we'll let you know. Don't worry about that. So January the 29th, do that.
Listen to crime and sports as well. If you haven't yet, because that we did murder this week. That's enough that listen to I hate this movie because we did Twilight this week because James wanted to murder this week. Oh, my God.
I could have cast out the demons I would have for that. This movie you put Kristen Stewart, Robert Pattinson or any of them in front of me. I'd cast those demons right out this weekend. So, yeah, check all of that out. Follow us on social media. We're at murder small on Twitter at small town pot on Facebook. And at small town murder on Instagram as well, and Patriot, of course, Patriot bonus episodes, we do so much bonus stuff for you.
And we take that shit seriously. Those are like the funniest things. The bonus episode on so much fun last week for crime and sports. We did Mark Chmura, the allegedly babysitter molesting tight end for the Green Bay Packers. And then we did Thanksgiving Day murders throughout time for that. It was so much fun. And next week, we'll have two more bonus episodes for you and they're going to be just as crazy. Do all of that, everything.
They're ADMA over at Patreon, dotcom slash crime and sports. Anybody over the five dollar level gets access to everything and everybody who gets who donates anything. We'll include also a shout out from Jimmy, end of the show and our producer segment. He will fuck your name up royally. Absolutely. So do all of that. You'll also get your name fucked up royally and you'll get wonderful karma if you go to PayPal and use our email address. Crime and sports at Gmail dot com.
Another way to make a donation.
So with that said, I need to hear the names of the people who I would never think are full of demons that I need to cast out some of these names. Please, please help me with these wonderful demon names.
Drop them on me now, Jimmy, this was executive producers are Cameron Kashiwabara Maria Kipe sassily John Miller, and he donated twice. Wow. Thank you. He also has had covid twice. Oh, my God. Unbelievable. This poor bastard. Lord, hang in there, John. Sorry about. Thank you. Janine Dabic and Gensen Happy Birthday by both Jake Nasso, Mark Weissmuller, Jordan Bennett still. Thank you so much. Our next list. And they just bought a truck by the way.
Congratulations, Jordan and Simon, before you got Nicholas Levitt, I said that Carol Braun sticking around. Thank you, Carol. Dennis Anderson, RJ Harman, Aaron Shiflett. Ari, I think it could be our or Ari, our air and our thank you, Didi.
Jolene Robinson, Donna Katz and Cuillo. Jackie Marin. Kim Letterman. I think that's right, Deb.
Boy, it's already going downhill. REM remote. Raimondo's Oh, Raimondo's. Hey, that's not right either. Jules and John Harrison. I think they're in Pennsylvania. No, they're not. Austin Lomax and Sam Cranswick, thank you guys so much. Guys are actual actual heroes, really. Other producers this week are Thomas Smith, Jennifer Baird, Theresa and Brown, Nicole Lopez, Andrew Sullivan, Robbie Barton, Tracy Renninger, Catherine Lainio, Kyle O'Rorke.
What is this afra afeard for a tulip that's not right. Happy because it might be. Probably not, though. Jennifer Visconti, Katerina Nehad Zilkha. Alexis Amus, Kristine Harrington. Jacqueline Hannaford Paten, Meadow's Amanda Knight, Bradley Hinkel. What is this and and what, what do I do. Oh, that's on the next line. No, it's not a Danroy dad really. Oh, and his dad, Roy and his dad. I was going to ask you and his dad, do you want to guess his name?
Roy Deqi, Castlebury, Samuel Hunte, Gabrielle Gray, Matthew Morris, Samantha Danielsson, John Kimbro, Daniel Barbet Santiago Canyon as Steven L. Well Brian Crosby, Laura Tyson, Sir James Marter, Liz Vasquez and Edwards. Travis Goodrich, Emily Henry Gillis, Henry Willis, Baby Yota. Janice Hill, Pink Zebra. Kristen would no last name read Polk. David would no last name. Kim Taylor. Sam Sure. Happy birthday Austin. Grover Jessica with no last name.
Madison McDonald. Evan Gladwell. Allen Caruso. Samantha Coston. I think that's right. Jessica Gore. Mary would know last name. Josh Oh boy. Oh boy. Wichita that's a weird name. Boy oh boy. Terrible last name. Melissa Walker.
Jeno Marcello. He works over at Oakwood and I believe. Oh yes, that's true. He lost his mom or his dad out, lost a fucking family member. And I'm sorry about I apologized, you know, hang in there, man. They'll mcgrann. Yeah. Gotcha. Taylor Walden, Ashley White, Leslie Whole A.l. Anita Martinez in the memory of Matt Walker from Matt Villanueva. Thank you very much. Thank you.
I'm terribly sorry about your friend Charles Butel, John Moe Molay. Jen Polic Bianca. Lou Weber. Ben Heather. Yes. Butel is that one name or Butel may think that's my name.
I know that guy. Maybe I'm no one. He's a good guy so. Yeah it's all good. Thanks Butow. Thank you Ben. Heather and Hannah showed him the show through the Rulo episode.
Oh boy. Good. Wow. Got in on the dirty side. All of a swing. Britney with no last name. Tom Olsen, Gregory Swainson, John Clark and God damn it, Stena Oak's. Magnis Kwan Cok. That can't be right. Ali Stallion's Rabbi, Shmuel, of each every week, I know I love them. Unbelievable. Nerem, Karen Charline, Natalie Haines, Glenda Windfield, Gregory Birx. Happy birthday to Athena. Happy? Yes.
I don't know. She's she's wonderful. I've Robertson Simon. It might be Simon Robertson. I'm not sure. Morgan Schwartz. Michael Schmidt. Kristin Nope. That's Krystal Ferguson. Joanne A'Hearn. Jude Kendall. Kyle Francis. Casina Horton Fatta. What that asset for for tacit pay. I don't know. Christine Christine Brennan or is it Drennen. I have it's Brennan. I think Kerry will carry Wilson. Anthony are Zagar. Jessica Stewart. Sarah Seward.
Don Gregs. Boy. Oh boy. Nope, that's a Z Zacchia. That's not right either. Z it's a damn it's like a Laskey science fiction movie or that Lisa Tucker.
Anthony sent me money because he didn't like my bullshit Chipotle recipe and he would like us to go get real. Chipotle other producers are Karen Bruce, Joy Wagner, Wagner J.
Alda. What a jaybird forward dammit. Brian Brice, I think Alex Manning, Jesus Christ era Abrahamian now Tara Jacobsson. Shannon No last name. John Dek. Alexa to Walt. Jennifer Klepacki. Klepacki Zera. Nope, that's Sarah Zelinski. That's why there's a Z in her last name. Jake Whouley. I think Spector would no last name. Loretta Dylan. Chris would no last name. Alere Maxcy Julia Ransom mirror. Mirror Kaitlynn Char. Nope. Alexian Nope.
That's Aleesha Lo Dave grear David Åhléns. Yeah obviously. Right. Kathleen Ferguson, Mallory Kennedy.
Chris Redig Redding goddammit. Patrick Allen. Patrick Macu Koritha Ryan. Jonny Evans Konner. Oh boy oh boy. Nugget.
That's the last name that didn't seem that bad. Seems like you got that. I'll make it if you got that.
Roger was what. Miss Baker. Sarah Roe. Eric Hunt.
Jeff Dacko Dakhil Delek no trace of Gerlinde shirt. What. Oh girland shirt. Got it. It's about the girl in the shirt. Katie Jesse, Dustin Manley and Jennifer Lance. Joshua Chandler. Illana Cornered Hunter Blake Michy Furley Fairly Loutre Liftin Litten God damn it Sarah with no last name. Christina Peters. Allissa Camacho. Steven Gibs. Kasey Gilbert. Josh McGrew. John Babeland. Grace Damn It, Dyre Daven not David Devon. Dawn Johnson. Dawn Johnson's not a hard name.
A woman spelling of Dawn. Yes. Yeah, got it. I wrote it terribly. Jessica Bennett, Michael Delancey, Payton Brewer, Dirt Girl. Tamara Carpenter, Liz Lynn, Ryan Carter, Kate Peterson, Joe Julie Ball, Janine Borbon. Adele.
But it's Italian. That's why. Alexis Nope. That's Alex Lopes. Kelly would no last name. Anthony and Keira Guglielmo. Guglielmo. I got it. Sorry. Pisin Saskia Schepper. Fuck them all. What the fuck. Alicia Nope. Yes.
Eliza Alida Ubinas only collect yourself.
Unbelievable. I'll Burkart, Alexandra Pressler, Robert Wagner. Probably not the one that killed this dancer, Daniel Arnold Wolfe with no last name.
John Miller. Yeah. Let's see. I don't want to call himself out. Or the guy that cleans up murders. McCarthy, Sanders, Joseph Mercal, James Scaley, Sheely Kialla, Kylah Baker. Fuck Alex do Brenin with no last name.
Shelby Hart, Briana Angle, probably Kurt's daughter, Tyler Kopans Coppins, Christina Hallowes, Sequeira now Robert and Robert Lerma, Ricky Shorts, Emerin A'Hearn, Lauren A Jeanna Ricky Schwartz and Richard Pant's as his father and Dicky Socks.
Yeah, Marineo and I said that. Jeanna Young. What is this. Alison Jones. Diana Roba wrote ACAP Road Cap Kelly Tyler hearing Kerry Yelitza that's that. It is Kelly and Tyler Harington and their son Mark MC Nugget or MC Nugget. He spelled it MC Nugget. I bet it's MC Nugget and he's like it fucked up. Natasha Tsan, Strafford, Daniel Brown, Hannah Kurn seven. Purdue seven. Tracy Williams, Ashley. What does this bark bark, James Taylor Vista Vosta like Pastor Hunter Night, we got a few more.
Here we go. Meghan and Jay to to cars, to Haski, Reanna Klein, Robin Hier, Jeff Borrus, Molly Malé. I think it's Maula.
Get it. Yeah, yeah, I think that's right. I know Ali Thornton. Barb goes out. Eric Berg Al Allison would no last name. Robert Thompson. Jordan collared Christine Sempill, Darren Levinsky, Cynthia Deen, Amber Hart. Emma would no last name a braver I think Josh Palis. Nope. That's place Jared Pitts, Melanie MacGinnis. Theresa Brewer. Amanda Scott Torelli to really George Torez. Jonathan Geiger Martinez. Linda Burkett.
Tyga what Linda burglars have broken Nicole Nicole Blaker Markt Tarzan Nelli Tarzan Abdul Fok Sarah Billing Hearst Clayton Foster Francesca Corindi Corindi. Cheer up with no bitch. Taylor Mays. Joan Hutchison. Kyle Walker. John Nope. Yeah. John Cornyn. Joe Corneau.
Corny corny. Joe Hey Kanayo.
It's possible George Wright, Joe Cassidy McKenny misspelled Krystal Parker Benwood. No last name. Sabzi Anda McCallan McCallan. Nadia Bloom Stran de Marchi Oder Jessica Cumins, Megan Yerby.
OK, he said, okay, I've got to collect my here's the thing I got.
It's my penmanship and people like print it out bro. I can't do that because it can't do it in order.
Yeah. It becomes more difficult.
Alexis Presson Land Linell I intend. I'm David Malloy. Eric McDonald. Patrick Johnson. Trisha Zavala. Eric Aaron Everett. Mark Martin Lynch. Justin Michael Baabda. Maria would no last name. Tiffany Cooper. Aaron would no last name. Yes. And that her name is Emily. I don't know her last name as Megan Locke. Mark Howard, Alan Jones, JD Fogarty. April Rush. Jessica Finch. Diane Taylor. Joe Gallagher. What Elude Uribe.
Brandon Calvin. Robin Owens. Logan Beck. Samantha Colton. Mackenzie Vought. I think Justyna Perseverence. Wow. Yeah, sorry about that. I think so. Dixie Hop, Michelle, Michelle Madell Zach, Michael Andrew Freeman Christoffersen, Tory Centurioni, Centurioni, Jo Fogarty, Paige Midgley, Drew Shocklee. To know, to know. But now Alicia Cox. Nathan Nope. That's just Nate Hufnagel out of what. Valerie Lynn Woodsey. Russell Long. I was super jacked.
Alicia Elizabeth Aeris Hood Timothee Young Dylan Wayne Stewart, Andrew Chapman, Staci Cole, Terrence Calicut Colquitt Sara Falko Falvo James McMahon, Noah Dumdum fought Katrina and Amando no last names. Jonathan Usery, Patrick Miller, James Dorsey, Trey Calhoun, Cassandra Schilling, William Weld, Jennifer Bresch Brashears, Silas or Tigran or Tord Nordegren. It's his birthday.
Happy birthday. Not going to be good at this. Christian Clark, Hannah Corbitt, James Curtis, Christina Johansen, Kate Tiaro. Kelly would no last name. Tristan Ward. Brad Cain. Patricia Vincent. Brittany Grymes. Lisa Klein. Robert Esparza. Rebecca Perotti, Perrot E. Bryant. Marina Bewell. I think Charles Lewis. Caitlin Gharty. Cheryl nope. That's Cheryl Laprade Pride. Tracy, I got them both wrong. Tracy Stofer. Tony Lynn. Matthew Hele.
Stephanie Oh boy oh boy. I can find it. Arcady Da. Nope, you're almost there.
Jimmy got hit with Curveball, Lisa Biard, Evan Jade, Timothy Hamill, Tasha with no last name. Madeline Walker, Joshua stuff. Sheri Aykut Hunter with no last name.
Jay zero three zero one one three. Not a lot of unknown. Wow. Might be a birthday probably.
Al knows Baathism.
It's a prison. No Stephanie bogyman and all of our patron sponsors. You guys are the best. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, everybody. Honestly, thank you. From the bottom of our hearts for everything. That's unbelievable. You've this has been a crazy year. And as we've seen, I mean, big clubs go out of business. All this stuff happens and you guys have kept us afloat and kept us in business even though we couldn't go on the road.
Right. Which is normally kind of how we make our living. You guys, we you know, basically if we hustle on Patriota, you guys will hustle for us. And you are happy to do that stuff. You've done it. We're happy to do it for you. We're just we just want to keep you guys. I know it's been shitty for everybody, so we want to keep everybody, you know, hopefully get some laughs a couple of times a week and all that sort of stuff, so.
Thank you for all your support this year, honestly. It means everything to us. Jimmy, how can they thank you. While you're thanking and find me on social media. And they did today with Spotify is. Yes, 20, 20. Those are cool, you guys. Some in that. We like that. It's really cool to see how many of you are listening to this and for how much fucking time it's it's really mind but is mind blowing.
I'm I'm so flattered. So thank you very much. We're going to find you. I'm at Jimmy P is funny. Just copy and paste my name. You'll find me on there somewhere. You guys know everybody out there knows how to find people. You've done a great job. You know how to do it. You found the show. So find us there. Stick around. Stick around. That said, you know what? Coming at you for another two hundred, we're still going to be here.
You're not going to be able to get rid of us. We enjoy this too much. As long as everybody keeps listening, we will keep doing it. So until then and until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure.