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This week in Ross Township, Pennsylvania, the tragic and seemingly accidental death of a prominent church woman with a high blood alcohol level leads the investigation to a different state and another accidentally dead woman.

Welcome to small town murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to small town murder.

Hey, hey, and Jimmy. Yeah, indeed. My name is James Patrick, along with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Weisman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today on another crazy edition of Small Town Murder. We have, of course, a wild episode today, one of those where it's a there's a land mine under every you never know where it's going to be. It's a crazy episode. As usual. We have oh, my goodness, the last few weeks have been crazy and the next few weeks are crazy.

So buckle up, everybody. A lot going on. If you haven't done it yet, please quick. A little housecleaning. Get on Apple podcast, the purple icon. Give us five stars. It does help the show. We don't know why we don't run Apple, so how would we know that?

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And in addition, you'll be a producer and then we have to thank you. And the way we do that is Jimmy Reed, your name at the end of the show and will not pronounce your name correctly, probably unless it's very simple. So sure you do that, but I'll give it his best. So you do that patriot dotcom slash crime and sports. And if you just want to have good karma and be a producer and get your media mispronounce your name, you can do that as well.

Over at PayPal using our email address, crime and sports at Gmail dot com. Yes. That said, quick disclaimer. This is a comedy show. Yeah, it's not a this is it's not a crazy you know, we're not we're not I'm not trying to be datelined now.

It's a comedy show. We're not journalists. No, but the thing is, the stories are all true. Everything's true. Everything's very accurate. We really take painstaking, you know, efforts to make us labors to make sure the story is 100 percent accurate. But there's comedy. Yeah, because we're comedians, number one. And stuff is when you get a situation like a murder that people find themselves in, it's crazy, weird stuff.

Weird stuff happens. And you know what? Some of it's funny. So that's not our fault. What we now like, we're you know, we're not going to sit here and go.

And then the head was cut from the body. That's that's a little dark. Let's we can lighten that up a little bit. And we're not going to be like, ha ha. That had got cut off from the body either. So there's a middle ground where you can joke about the stuff around and then go, oh my God, there's a cab came right off the body. That's horrible. That's a normal. People would look at a murder.

Sure. That's how we're doing it. We go out of our way to make sure not to make fun of the victims or the victim's families because we're assholes anymore. We're not scum there. It is. I mean, that's how it works here. So that doesn't sound good to you.

Crime and comedy should never, ever go together in your mind. Then maybe this isn't for you. Goodness, it might be. And you might be, you know, thinking the wrong thing, but maybe it's not. So don't complain later if that's the case. But for the rest of us that want to have a good time and hear about a wild story, I think it's time to sit back there, the old ones, and shout, shut up and give me murder.

Let's do this, Jimmy. All right. Let's go on a trip, shall we? I think we we need to to buckle up here and go on a trip. Man, we're not we're not going very far this week. Now, it's weird.

The next few weeks we're going to be we got Hawaii. Oh, shit. It's been like two years since we've been three years since we've done Hawaii. Only done one one.

Hawaii rolled over for runner Bronco.

Gee, there's not a lot it's tiny over there and it's not a lot of small. All towns, because it's just mainly a couple of you know, it's hard to small town, it's hard to find stuff. So it's yeah, well, we're going to Hawaii. We got all the everywhere Texas in New York. We're going all over the place here. Back in Maine we haven't been to in a long time. But here we're going to Pennsylvania, right right next door to Jersey, pretty much so connected to it.

We're going to Ross Township, Pennsylvania, which is on the other side of the state.

So it is hours away from from the last chance, aren't we, in goddamn Oregon or Washington last week? Washington, yeah.

Oh, that's right. And then Washington and back I am a week behind. I'm still three thousand miles away on the disappeared baby shop. That's why I picked Pennsylvania this week, because it's not next door. I'm like, yeah, I guess so. This is this is southwestern Pennsylvania. It's in the it's the Pittsburgh suburb. Yeah. It's fifteen minutes to downtown Pittsburgh, really. And if you know how Pittsburgh set up, as we do, because we went there basically Pittsburgh itself, the city proper is kind of in the middle and then it's in like a weird little valley.

Everything around it's like through the hills, through a mountain and over a bridge to get to Pittsburgh. So rivers everywhere. That's what I mean. So the suburbs of Pittsburgh are not there. They're the suburbs like they're not Pittsburgh because they're separated by like a mountain in a river. And it's not. Yeah, it's not just all kind of connected, you know what I mean? So it's a good way to look at it. Fifteen minutes to downtown Pittsburgh.

What you're going to have to go through a mountain and over a bridge to get there and through the woods. Five hours to Philly, if you. Yeah, if you're lucky. As we know, we took that trip unless you miss an exit and then it's then it's a good six, six and a half hours if you do that, because not a lot of exits on that road. You're getting off fifty miles out of the way that exit.

Twenty five inch wide and you see roads and you're like, how are people getting on those roads? Why can't I you why can't I get that fair. That's all the way I see it. I see it. Damn it.

It's about three hours to Newville, Pennsylvania, which was our last Pennsylvania episode, episode one seventy five. So this is an Allegheny County fourteen square miles. The town is now. It's pretty decent sized town motto here. Not surprising. Go Steelers is the town motto or this is the one where that's just like what's written on the signs. But if you go there it's more quote. Ben Roethlisberger didn't touch those women.

That's the town slogan and so on.

We trust. And that's it. Yeah. So that's that. No, no. I mean, you know, they have their opinions in the history of this town. Early settlers here. There was a lot of a lot of a lot of problems with native Native Americans in this area because they came in and this is good kind of fertile area. And when people try to move in, you know, the other people don't really the people who already have the land might be upset.

They shouldn't. Certain things are going well here. So apparently many of the Native Americans, many of these of the whole group there did not agree with their chiefs treaty with George Washington in 1780 for their chiefs name as chief corn planter. Is that real? That is his real name, chief corn planter right on the nose.

I mean, it's. Yeah, yeah. You wanted something to be straight up like that. You know exactly what he does. There's no mystery. Is that his name or is. No, no. Said that's both. That's what I mean. It's wonderful treaty with George Washington. They're so apparently for Ross Township, this was the hunting grounds. They're hunting grounds. And then the chief kind of gave it away. Yeah, it's like old. Now, where the fuck are we supposed to hunt?

So that's not a good thing. And apparently about in seventeen ninety four people, kind of white people came and settled the area here and the first group that came were chased out by a group of Indians, of course. And then the the this guy's sons, David and Casper Jr., they're the rebels are their last name. They became the first white men born north of Pittsburgh. The real rebels. The real rebels.

Yeah. You know the you know the site. Yeah. Yeah. Consignment luxury items. This place is fascinating. So yeah.

And eighteen oh nine. A guy named John McKnight, along with thirty other residents of Pine Township, petitioned the courts of Allegheny for the formation of a new township and they got Ross Township. So there you go. They named it after some guy named James Ross who had never heard of but who gives a shit bunch of extra large maryalice everyone.

He was a he was an attorney there. Yeah. You know, it works. So anyway, he represented western Pennsylvania in the convention to ratify Pennsylvania as a state.

So they were like, fine.

Now this is the setting of a huge prison escape. Pretty good story. Yeah I know it. In nineteen to Catherine so full. Who was the wife of the warden of the Allegheny jail. This is fucking amazing.

Helped the Bidle brothers who she fell in love with escape. Oh no. The wife of the warden fell in love with two prisoners. Meltem isn't this great love. This is awesome. This is a great town history right here. Fucking. Yeah, that's what I mean, imagine that I want them both out to that yeah. Too. She's getting an eyeful. Build the bell tower. Incredible. This is not good. So it was during the escape.

Of course, they picked a blinding snowstorm that was escaping. Brilliant. Yeah. They found themselves at up on Perryville Plank Road looking for shelter and something to eat, and they had nowhere else to stay. So they broke into the schoolhouse and, you know, they the stove was still warm from the classes when they broke in there. So they stayed there. They end up traveling up the road to a hotel where they got some ham sandwiches and a pint of whiskey.

So they didn't have as enough money, though. So the one escapee pulled out a woman's pocketbook and paid for them, which is an odd sight in 1982. Not a lot of that going on. He didn't have enough room in his coat, so he pulled his gun out in front of the bartender. And then the other guy saw that and remembered him from that, obviously, and put two and two together. They tried to steal horses and a buggy and all sorts of shit, and they ended up finding an open barn where they kind of hung out there.

And then they ended up they were tracked like the next day.

How did the warden's wife not put more thought into this escape? It sounds like they were fucked every step of the way. Yeah, it's I feel like this is like 19, 02. And the men were like, we'll take care of this. And she was like, OK, great. And then they planned this. And she was like, I feel like I could have done better on the outside, could suddenly at least use a forecast. This is for the weather.

All this through. No, no transportation. Nobody looked at the Farmer's Almanac. Nobody looked at anything on the cloud.

Yeah. Looks might not be the best. Maybe tomorrow. Let's say our paperwhite. I feel like things are going to and that's going to snow. It's going to snow. That looks bad and smell it. Yeah. You know something in the air.

We have reviews of this town here. They're mostly pretty good, actually.

People seem to like this place. I picked a bunch of average three star reviews. Here's three stars. The area is very quiet. The toughest the toughest thing growing up is that there was not many kids on my street, nor was the nearby pool very affordable.

You got a nearby pool that's over here. That's a very personal thing. There wasn't a lot of kids on my street. Well, the town sucks then, obviously, because you lived on a street with older people and those are expensive and nobody likes me.

That's what I got.

That's what it was. We couldn't afford a pool and I didn't have any friends today. I mean, even if you did, you couldn't afford to go in the pool with them anyway. So it's a difference. So three stars, just real simple. It's been getting worse over the years. OK, watch out for that. Three stars. Everyone is isolated and there isn't much communal communication. Wow. My word. That's OK. Why do you describe it that way?

I could have just said it's not a lot of the people talk to hard to socialize here. That's that would have been one way to put it. Three stars. Bellevue does have a bit of a drug problem. Oh, boy. These sort of activities tend to go down around the skate park area and the high schools where delinquent teens sell drugs to one another, not the teenagers.

Who cares? Listening, selling to each other. The teenagers are doing drugs. The delinquent ones, not the teenagers, buy a skate park. They're doing drugs and getting on skateboards. Oh, no.

God, no.

Not that. It is pretty fascinating that we have as a society embraced skate parks and that everybody knows that that's what happens to them. And we've just allotted a little area for.

That's where you go. Yes. Here. Good. And actually, this one is actually skating. Ah, not on drugs a lot, do you? It's hard to skate when you're fucked up. It really is. It's not. That is stoned, you know, a little stoned. You can do it, but otherwise you wouldn't want to be like all strung out on something trying to skate.

It's not like kids love to go to them. And there are there's a thick, hazy skunk. Smelly cloud. Yeah, it's skateboard. It's all night long. It's good for us.

It's a creative thing to do. You need to do it. Get those kids on some on some heavy stuff. We gave them a place to be.

Don't if you don't if you don't like that, well, don't go to the skate park. That's what I'm saying. Don't do that. They're the teenagers. They're trying teenagers on drugs to avoid adults. That's the other thing. They're hiding in the woods. And I don't I don't want to be around you any more than you want them to be around. It's perfect. It's almost that's how you get rid of teenagers. You give them drugs and they go away and do things and something to do like other people's kids.

You don't want around be like, here's some drugs, go in the woods to take these drugs and go in the woods and leave us alone. I keep that in mind. There you go. If you ever see kids around your neighborhood bothering works out isn't Nickelback. There's a scar on my face. There is a couple of rerolls. Just go in the woods and I'm fine with it.

So actually, no, no, pre now you have to learn how to teach him a craft, figure it out to your apprenticeship. Yeah. So then they go on to say this crew tends to stick to themselves. However, in the community is not really affected in the grand scheme of things. My fucking mentioning, yeah, who cares? Obesity is definitely a bit of a problem. It's not the feds versus drug addled kids and fat people. Yasein say here in Pittsburgh, I've been there, by the way.

We love kids, right? I love pet. Sounds like it's one of my favorite cities. Really? I don't know what it is about. It is suddenly top ten. Unbelievable. Yet especially to go to the people are awesome. It's it's really kind of beautiful of a place to like. It's gorgeous with the hills and it's nice and bit more yellow and black than I want it.

There's fine. And yeah. You guys especially for a breeze really, really embrace it. Put it back and it feels because it feels like it's its own little like enclave. Yeah. From the world Pittsburgh because they've really separated themselves from what Pennsylvania is. Yeah.

Well because you have to like enter it through that, through those mountains and through those bridges. So it feels like you're going and the food is so good and people are cool. Oh God. My bartender in my hotel was I didn't want to leave the hotel. I don't think I did a thing in Pittsburgh except for drinking there. I had a great restaurant in the hotel and it was like an old school hockey bar. Oh, that's right. In the hotel it was awesome.

And like the waitress was telling us what good wings they had to make their own sauce.

And like, this place is amazing. I love Pittsburgh. So but yes. One thing, though, there's a lot of it's a hardy town. Yeah, it's a heart. The food is hearty and and it's cold. Right. You paddleboats right there. Yeah. Yeah. You're just wearing a Steelers parka anyway. So what's the difference on Endure the winter.

You got to kind of get it on. Exactly. So obesity's definitely a bit of a problem is there isn't really access to gyms within Bellevue. They seem to live in Bellevue, although use of the fitness trails and local parks are solving this issue. Yeah, there's no shortage of outside in Pennsylvania. That's one thing. The whole lot of that happened is everybody look at all sorts of outside of the hospital. Within the area is small but quick, efficient and effective for pressing matters.

Although most people tend to make the trip downtown to other emergency rooms or meet expressive medical attention isn't needed immediately. They really got into that. They really did. Wow. They broke it down. Did they have like like notes?

Like, I feel like they did and they wrote their review based on their no, hey, we have social drug problem.

They

did a rough draft before they nailed this thing out.

Let's get into the health. Let's get into the health of the city into that. That's good. OK, very thorough. Very thorough. The hospitals, all we need to get into infrastructure and they're going to want to know that. So population of this town, it's grown pretty steadily. Went up after World War Two is when it really shot up between 1950 and 1960. There's a lot of steel mills. Yeah, shit was going on places to work here and it stayed pretty solid.

And it's it's kind of drop down since like nineteen ninety a little bit. But there are still thirty thousand eight hundred sixty nine people in this area, down eight percent since nineteen ninety nine and a little a few more females than males. I don't know if the males have died in the mills lately. That's what's happened. They've fallen into a you know, that vat of molten steel, you know that ever that is ever low. Yeah. Blowing that hot shit.

I thought one there's a guy stirring a big pot like a giant which ladle whatever's in there. They pull it out with with very long, sharp tongue twisted around. And that's what the guy fell in there. I feel like a couple of I'm sure if you few down the population, but the median age here, forty four point four, which is a little bit older, about seven years older than normal, all the over sixty year old demographics are high.

A lot of old people here, not as many young people, married population's higher. It's the burbs. It's what you're going to get. Fifty five percent married, you know, but everything like that, less, less people that are single and with no children and you know, more people that are with children, obviously, if they're married. So race of this town, it's not a pretty monochromatic here in Pittsburgh. Yes.

Well, ninety nine point nine percent. So. Ninety one percent white. It's a lot. It's pretty white having two point three percent black, which is way less than the twelve percent norm in the country here, three point seven percent Asian. So that's close to the close to the five percent norm and one point six percent Hispanic, which is very low.

Yeah, very low. Sure. I don't know what's up with that, but yeah, that's very low religious.

Sixty over sixty percent of the people here religious, which is a lot mostly for the Northeast.

It's Pennsylvania. Yeah. And you're going to get a lot of Catholics. Oh I'm thirty eight point five percent Catholic. Oh. Like Catholics are everybody that the Baptists that up North I don't know are at an art or a western Pennsylvania wanted everyone to know it there. A couple of Methodists got a Pentecostal or two over there, Yankee Baptists, you know, because one point four percent Jewish.

Yeah, I find that James doesn't know the word.

We got to sing our song. We got to sing. All right. And let's see here what else we got here. The the economy goes the unemployment rate is kind of normal with the rest of the country as o'clery falls right now.

Yeah, we haven't really. Who knows what it is. We don't know. Yeah, exactly. Nobody wants to say, oh shit. It's going to be scary to be scary to find out the real number at this point in time. It's a lot more than three, I think, at this point. So median household income here is high. It's about sixty eight and a half thousand dollars, which is normally about fifty seven and a half. So decent, actually.

And the cost of living, one hundred is average here. It's 95. So very high salaries and low cost of living. Not bad. Housing's an eighty three. How about this median home cost one hundred ninety three thousand three hundred fifteen minutes from Pittsburgh. Not bad. Yes.

This is good stuff, man. I'd say it's not bad at all. I found. Well, you know what?

If you want to be just a bridge away from the lovely Pittsburgh we have for you and the Ross Township, Pennsylvania, real estate report, your average two bedroom rental here, that seems to be a little pricey.

It's about a thousand ninety five dollars, which is actually under the average kind of fits in with about ninety three away from it. That's what I mean. It's about that I found a a lot. So you want to build a house, just land in a neighborhood. It's like it's like a half acre lot. Yeah. He can build a nice house if they're making a cemetery out of it, they're going to do it to cram it right in there.

Twenty four thousand five hundred bucks for half acre in a neighborhood. That's unbelievable. In the middle of nowhere, it's like, you know, in some other nice house. So unreal. Nice spot. Looks like somebody had a big lot. They broke it off. Sure. You know, they're going to sell half their storage lot. Yeah. Or whatever. They just had a bigger somebody bought a lot and I want some room and now they don't.

I found a three bedroom, one bath. Twelve hundred fifty four square foot house. It's Flamel. It looks very flammable.

It's the best way to put a wood on the wood that looks dry, it looks crispy, it looks like you are like one flicked match away from a lot of shake that I like it. I'm a little worried about it. One hundred twenty one thousand four hundred thirty one dollars does not include fire insurance, which I'm sure you'd want. Definitely.

Then I found a three bedroom, three bath, fourteen hundred sixteen square foot house. It's nice on the inside but it's fucking yellow and weird. I don't know if it's like a Steeler theme house today. Who knows if the insides all black. I'm not sure exactly what's going on here, but one hundred ninety seven thousand four hundred five dollars. So it's affordable compared to bad. That's what I mean compared to the rest of the country. Yeah, it's pretty goddamn affordable for it to live in a decent suburb of a nice city.

So not bad things to do here. Obviously one. I mean, you're going to go to Pittsburgh sports, right?

That's I mean, it's fun. It's just a bridge away. It's right there. You have Pittsburgh is a very good sports town. Yeah. All sorts of shit. Another thing to do, stare at the bridges. Sure. We have the do. Yeah. So many bridges in Pittsburgh. If you've never been there, they're famous for it. Yeah. I can't remember how many there as somebody told was a no. Yeah. It's like two hundred and it's summer.

There is a it's every fifteen feet. Yeah. It's like every street. If you've ever played like SIM City when you're a kid or something like in school or whatever, if there is water you make streets that go to it, you don't extend every street over the water. Right. Because you're like, oh that's stupid. There's like ninety five bridges, like, you know, let's condense that and make a highway going. Nope. They said it's every street gets a bridge, its own bridge and you know, twist that fucking road until it hits water and then put a bridge on until it hits water.

Yeah. And then put a bridge on it. Four hundred and forty six point forty eight to ninety four hundred forty six. And you can look just down the river bridge bridge. You like. What is going on here. How do you maintain all these. They're not the same now. They're all different. Built differently. Yeah. What is happening in this town. But it's gives it his personality and where you like it. But it's just a strange, very weird thing.

It's the first thing you notice when you go in. You're like, what is up with the are those all operational things like old bridges you've abandoned over time and just left up and. But new ones, are they closed off at the entrance. Yeah.

What if I mean, if the car was just jump off into the river, if you tried to go over it. Another thing here is Ross Township community days. Hell yeah. Oh boy. They're they're hosting their Ross Township classic car cruise. All right, boy, I'm into that food and drinks and singing and dancing. No, not that.

Oh yeah. Skip that bunch. A bunch of suburban Pittsburgh guys singing and dancing in the streets. That's what I like. People that dance heavy set white people dancing in the street. That's really what it's a lot of bent elbows. Yeah, just a little bit of shoulder shrug and fists up in the air and polka music.

I don't know if that's go in there. I feel like one step at a time. Yeah, one fist at a time. And then slowly, because you don't want to spill your beer. Right. That's the other thing.

Or pull a muscle. Yeah.

You have a cheese product in one hand and something with melted cheese and then you have a beer very wet and cold in the other you're going to have to be slow with it. So and then come listen to your favorite oldies, Music and DJs featuring the doo wop band. Yeah, the doo wop. Oh, I'm sorry. That's not their name. I that was their name. I was like, that's pretty funny. But they do. That's pretty lame.

I know the Bloomfield boys.

Yeah. The Bloomfield thought the name could use some work.

That's, that's are they like the pride of Pittsburgh or something.

Do they matter of the pride of Bloomfield. Probably that of their last name is Bloomfield. Yeah. All three of them. One or the other they might be from. Yeah, that sounds like a suburb of Pittsburgh, you know, out in Bloomfield. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's where I'm from. You telling someone online. At the online. At the urinal. At a Steelers game.

Like we drove in from Bloomfield.

Yeah.

So our crime rate in this town, what we're interested in here, property crime is about average, nothing crazy like a normal place, violent crime, murder, rape, robbery and assault.

The Mount Rushmore of crime is under half. So it's a safe and a lot of suburbs are like that. You get you get your your drug addled skate park teenagers that are going to spray paint the couple of things here. And then you get your nobody's actually killing each other. And forty four year old middle of the road worried about the 401k. Exactly. People that aren't doing anything except dancing in the street except for really poorly dance the worst ways than in a bad way.

That said, let's talk about a murder in this little idyllic town. It sounds nice. It sounds nice. I really like it. It looks nice. Still from the pictures, it sure looks decent. Looks like a decent place to live. Now, this murder, though, is a not not very it's not the reason to be there and also not the reason to be there. Well let's start in nineteen ninety four shall we. Let's start in the mid nineties.

Good time to be alive. Ninety four was fun because there's a lot of crazy weird shit going on. Yeah. Like this is a time when like it's pre internet like this is barely Internet. Right. Like AOL chat rooms and shit.

But you could watch O.J. Simpson be chased by police for two fucking hours on live television, like that's what was going on in nineteen ninety four. So it was a very strange time. It's the beginning of our arrogance, really, because they're just wrapped up the Gulf War with nary a life loss. Absolutely. And it was just a huge like Americans. We all got huge dicks and it was like, well, the Berlin Wall of Russia felt like, wow, we have no worries, we're the best.

And and all we got to worry about is in-house.

So we were like the cocaine hippo's, you know, about them. You told me that Pablo Escobar bought these hippo's hussar to for a zoo back in the day and imported them. And then when he got busted, the government took over all his shit and they just let these hippos go and have like four hippos.

And there's there are no predators for them or anything where they are now. So they're just reproducing like fucking crazy. Unbelievable. That's what's going on. So, yeah, cocaine, hippos just running wild. That's those Americans that's American in 1994. Exactly. There's no natural predators. So they can just go crazy and breed. Yeah.

And really put no no forethought, put flags all over everything the time.

So yeah. That's what ended up happening in ninety four. Let's start in Ross Township. All right, nice. This is we'll talk about a nice couple here in Ross Township here. Let's talk about Tim Buzz Koski. Huh. Sounds like that's a good Pittsburgh area. Pittsburgh Moskovsky here. I think I'm saying it right.

Be OCZ Chayo W Saeki might be Bychowski botched cowslip your boss.

Because listen, we talk to the wrong guy for this operation.

That's a tough one I know with Boss Koski, but it could be boccie, it could be Bychowski Weeda or bots scans. I mean this could go either way because people also will make their names simpler. Yeah. Like my last name used to say it Petraglia, but that's only because we tried to make it simpler for everybody because it's Patrick. And let's not go crazy, you know.

I mean, let's just don't worry about that syllable unless competitiveness. Exactly. That's that's kind of how we're like, relax, it's one of those deals. So let's call him Boss Koutsky here.

So the boss will say it may be that to him because that that's a great name. That's cool anyway, right? Yeah. So Tim Tim, he's born in nineteen fifty five so you know. Thirty nine years old at this. Point in time, I guess you'd say, yeah, our yeah. Thirty nine. Thirty nine, yeah. And then he is married. Wow. I almost couldn't do math for a moment there. He's married at this moment.

To Marianne Fullarton. Borkowski She's thirty five. Marianne as they were married the year before. Nineteen ninety three. Right. Waiting a while. Yeah. It's now well. Very well for her.

Yes but for him he's had a kind of a tragic past. Oh. Which is, which is tough. And that's, that's one of the things that Marianne is a very sweet person as we'll talk about.

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Here now, they got married in nineteen ninety three, Tim is a denture maker, which is one of the weirdest fucking things I've ever heard in my life. It's the coolest thing at school. But it's also really, really, really weird thing to do was to take someone else. And I get it. It's a wonder people need dentures and it's a wonderful thing. But it also is creepy as fuck. It's creepy as fuck. I just picture some weird guy sitting in a room being like, I like teeth and like, you know what I mean?

I like making Teen Girl on Twitter or on Instagram who does it. It's kind of incredible. But again, she would probably tell you right away, I'm definitely a weird person and it's different and it's weird, less weird if a woman's doing it. So I don't picture her in a room going, I'm going to make a person feel like a guy is like, well, if I can make a tooth, I can make a vagina, you know what I mean?

I can make up about how I can make a butthole. I know I can. And then it's, you know, so I can make them they're going to have they're going to be like making tiny, like kid robot people or some shit with weird shit out of a gelatinous form.

I'll bet I can make it. If I could make a tooth, I can do anything. That's what I feel like. I'm a god. I could make teeth. Just creeps me out in a room just. Oh, she's all about teeth. It is fascinating.

Oh I love, I love her. That's so good.

I mean. Yeah. So that's what he does for a living and he's only been doing that for a couple of years. Apparently he before that he did something else, but he's kind of started a new life. And if you find out what's gone on, you would understand why he would want to start a new life until he kind of has to start a new life.

But Marianne is a religious instructor at the Roman Catholic Church in town, the Nativity, Roman Catholic Church in Ross Township. And she is very much into church things. She does all sorts of church shit. She works the church. They met at a Catholic singles function. Oh, Jesus. So this is that a lot of kids. It's a Catholic thing over here, you know what I mean? The meeting at a at a dance there, the Catholic dance they got.

So they're going down there and, you know, so he's a denture maker. She works at the church and they end up getting married. She also is a teacher as well as that kid is. It's funny because we mentioned it a few weeks ago. Did we have to deal with before communion and Kath. Oh, that's good. Yeah. Yeah. But a few weeks ago, as we were saying and I was ranting about something and I said CDC by mistake and some like three people tweeted, having it succeed.

And I'm like, no shit. I fucking obviously I knew what the fuck I was talking about. It was a matter of we've heard the words, the letters. CDC said so much in the last goddamn year that I was so anyway.

Yeah. CCD teacher, which I know you.

First of all, it's a voluntary post. Yeah. And you have to go like, you know, every goddamn Tuesday and Thursday or Wednesday night or whatever and teach a bunch of shit. Had little kids basically shit. Had little Italian kids that don't want to be there. Yeah. You have to teach them shit. So it's my stepmother used to be a teacher so that's how I know you have to be. She's like a Disney character. She's like the nicest person in the world.

So you have to be a nice person to want to do this. I want to deal with other people's kids for free. Right. If that's all you're dealing with. There's no other adults to do anything and you're doing it in a religious way. Yeah. Extra for us. And they're like, nice. Yeah. They don't want anything to do with this guy.

They're a group of nine year old guineas and fucking tell them about God for a while now they're like, shut the fuck up.

I'm telling you, it's awful. Yeah.

Italian kids are the worst when my dad beat my mom with the belt last night. So you want to tell anyone there's a God, is that right?

Right. Yeah, Jesus. And whatever. Can I get that little metal you get in communion? Let me get the little medallion thing. It's my it's like the it's my first dress. It's the that's what it's the first, my first, my first gaudy jewelry. Italian kids. That is what you get for everything. We all got one got Italian kids were the worst.

I remember in like in like middle school looking around and being like it's classes that were extra bad. We're like the teacher would cry. We had a class where the guy just broke down.

He just broke down and sat down on his desk and put his head in his hands and he just couldn't take it anymore. And this is wall like a racer's bounced off him and shot him with the water gone. Like it was like a horrible comedy scene. And this poor man just broke down. A grown man just lost it. He couldn't take it anymore. And I looked around and there was like twenty six kids in the class and like 20 of them were Italian and they were all the ones that were tearing shit up.

I'm like, we are awful because we're fucking ruining everything. And they're going to looking at me showing weakness, something that I miss fucking he's being a pussy is what broke. My God, we broke my right finally. Hey, I don't know. That was the goal. Yeah. To break this poor man. And he broke my senior year. We had Lou. It was a security guard. We are our history teacher quit or was fired or whatever reason left.

So they just filled in with Lou. Yeah. Until they got a new teacher. They never got a new teacher. I'm fucking with Celui just comes in and sits down and just starts telling us about American history and we just all turned our backs to him and just started having our own conversation. But we're not listening to we all failed. But what we were going to fail anyway. How old were you.

Yeah, OK.

Senior year we were 12. This was seventh grade. Different, different thing. But yeah, that's that's very irresponsible.

At 18 years old, we had what the the smart girl in the class. I wasn't even in school then, so never mind. She wrote a letter to the principal about how in effect of this class. I would like to bring to your attention the ineffectiveness of Lou to whom it may concern. Yeah, Lou, while not being a certified educator, he has a walkie talkie on his shirt, is at a distinct disadvantage when we are learning about the first Continental Congress.

And his walkie talkie went off saying there's a clogged bathroom in the second story, girl's bathroom clogged toilet bowl. So that Roon class fucked it all up for us. Really disrupted. I, I wish I could go back in time and just beat the living shit out of me.

I realize we all desire, but I really do. You said this Devanagari park is not exist, but I wish I had gone back and just been. Are you. You're going to ruin lose fucking day Dick. You think Lou wants to be here. You don't want to be here. Lou wants to go to fuck home either. Lou definitely doesn't want to be here or Lou's real excited because this is Lou shot. Either way, it lose like a minor leaguer who got called up.

Like, I could do this if I had three hundred, they might keep me or Lou. I don't even know his last name was. We'd never get the dignity and respect of finding out every janitor you ever had. I can look every pretty guard. Oh, skip shooting course. I'm even worse. At least a janitor like clean stuff. The security guys, look, he's fucking standing there as a kid. You look at standing as you get paid for that.

Leave this fucking guy. I don't think Lou did much stand to stop us from smoking weed. Go away. He's a heavyset, chubby round. Good. So you can outrun it. That's all that you needed. He had a golf cart. That's how he caught us. That's fucking hilarious to see.

We had these security guards put in charge of them were these old ladies that were like it was so weird. Like the hierarchy was like old lady lunch monitors in charge of security guards. So I made friends with the old lady lunch monitors. I made friends with them. So then nobody was allowed to bother me. Yeah, it was fucking great. Yeah. You had to get a get to scam it the right way. I wish I would have known.

That's what you do. I was just addicted to did that and then I could go smoke weed. I would literally tell them, like I'm going to be around the corner so no one should be there for a little while.

Right. She'd be like, yeah, go ahead. Three, four. She'd go, yeah, go ahead. And I go, thank you. Go around. That's what you do. Unbelievable. So you don't get in trouble.

So anyway, one of her friends said about Maryann here, quote, Anywhere she was needed, she was willing to help, especially where her kids were involved. She's very much everybody says she's just a nice, sweet person, will help anybody. Another friend said, quote, When a couple celebrates their first anniversary as a family instead of as a couple that says something about them, they were very close to them and their children, not even their children.

Tim's children, not hers. No. Tim has three children, thirteen years old, ten years old and nine years old. So those are that's a that's a lot that's a ready made family, ready made family, but also ready made attitudes because.

Oh, it's the teenage Jesus. Oh, by the way, their mom died. Oh, no. Your mom died in nineteen ninety. How many times do they have the opportunity to say you're not my mom, you're not my mom and you have to be sensitive because your mom's dead. You know, you can't be like, well yeah, because your mom's out horyn around in Reno with, you know, whatever the hell your mom broke the little brothers out of prison because she lives in love with them.

Of course. Yeah, that's OK. I'm all you have. That's not how it works. Diddle diddle diddle. That's a bad thing.

So she though Marianne is so wants them to be a family. And so, you know, accepting of them and loving of them, she adopts them within the first year of them being married. Yeah. They celebrate their first anniversary, like the friends said, as a family with the friends and the kids. And you know, this is our family, our first anniversary of our family.

So it's very much a family type of thing here. And he's making teeth in the basement like a weirdo. Yeah, I don't know where he's making teeth, but I just picture him in the basement on the couch, one really bright light on and like those goggle things that, you know, it's just like.

Kloth the buttholes next. And all I need is teeth and a butthole. And then it's real butthole looks very similar to the top of a molar. I can do it. Yeah.

So his first wife, his first wife died, like we said.

And nobody really. Because, I mean, when some. One's young and they have three kids and their wife died, you don't really press that much on them as far as like. So exactly what happened now was this you don't really get into that because it's uncomfortable and you feel like he's probably sad about it.

I would imagine. You know what I'm saying? It's you don't poke and prod and you let him divulge it. But you also I mean, what does it matter? You know, I mean. Yeah, how'd she die? I mean, the wife's dead. I mean, the rest of the. Exactly. The other thing. Why would you bother? Yeah, obviously it's not it's not a happy appositive now. Oh, it was great. Actually, it was wonderful.

She's she's in her 30s. Yeah. She was not good. She was, she was thirty five. Good God. That's far too young. Far too young. Thirty five. Three young children. And so yeah. You don't want to press too much unless it's something obvious obviously. Like I had a I have a guy I knew in high school and I saw that this was the most horrible thing. He had two little kids and they were pregnant with the third, but his wife died in childbirth.

The third shit. Yeah, kid was fine. Yeah. Wife died.

So now he's got. Oh my. Yeah, he can't breastfeed. He had to go on. Going to be a nightmare with two small kids and a newborn baby and to raise them with your wife. I mean imagine I can't even know what the hell this guy went through. I was like, oh my God, this is the most that's tragic shit right there. And so, you know, this guy is kind of in that same boat, except it wasn't a newborn, obviously, but still, it's it's rough.

And you would. Thirty five. It's a goddamn tragedy. Yeah. How you. Yeah.

I think thirty to the one I know. Good Lord.

It's it was wild so they don't know, they all they know is that you know, she had like some kind of weird medical anomaly that they don't know if it's a heart attack, they don't know if she had like them or something like that because she was in the tub. So they were like, do you have an aneurysm and drown? There's that sort of thing. So it was one of those type of medical problems here, but didn't matter anyway.

Tim, though, he seems to have come around and come back. He's married her, married Marianne. And also he's doing very well as a denture maker. He's doing makes a lot of money. Sure. Actually does a really good you know, those sheets are expensive. Yeah. He makes a great living. And, you know, obviously his his butthole making business on the side. The Zuman a big it's a big boon to the to the families accounts.

So he's doing well and then they meet over here at the Catholic function. So that seems everybody seems happy and legit and everything like that. Everything seems happy. Her parents, Maryanne's parents said they felt really sorry for him at first. You know, he's the one guy with these three little kids and a dead wife and they felt terrible for him. But then they they realized that he was a nice guy and they liked him for more than just sympathy.

After a while here. Now, they've only been together. They've been married about seventeen months in 1994. And the months kind of toward the end of the year, toward the end of nineteen ninety four, he's tatem starts telling people that Marianne is drinking a lot and that she's an alcoholic and things like that, which is odd because her friends don't really, don't really see that she's never she's not really a big drinker. Our friends always say they've that they've known her for twenty years.

They've like rarely seen her tipsy.

If you don't know that when she gets home and then from eight to midnight, it's just it's pounded. Yeah. It's you never know. But I mean, her friends are like, that's weird. We never see her shitfaced. She gets home, gets into the cooking sherry. She doesn't like red wine. Yeah. It's hammerin.

It so funny. I pictured her in the kitchen. Take a look. And both hands are out of there. Yeah, well her husband's in the fucking basement trying to make a bottle. It's a really weird it's a really weird house going on. Her friends on Molas all night. Yeah. No man when I do it.

So you know, they ended up, they, he wanted to he it got to the point where he started telling people that she needs like an intervention for her alcohol, like it's a big deal. So he starts telling her church friends that, you know, will you join me to tell her that, you know, blah, blah, blah, all this type of shit need a team? Yeah, I need like a team. And it's really weird.

Now, at this point, they said that she she drank socially, maybe, but, you know, that's about it. She said that she Marianne wants another child. She wants a child of her own.

She doesn't have any kids. She's got the three kids they adopted. But she adopted his kids. But she wants her own baby, of course. And so, you know, she's thirty five, too. So she's she's pushing the upper end of it. So she, you know, biological clock is ticking here. She's got, you know, the a family and a home and an opportunity to do this and they have the money to do it.

So she's like, why not? So, you know, that's that's that's how that works. Now, her friend, when he's asking for her friends to do an intervention, one of her friends says that she didn't think it was necessary, but she would go to support her friend, just, you know, whatever. But she said, I don't know, I've never seen her like that drunk. I don't know what you're talking about. But then there's a nun, Sister Patricia, a boy and Sister Pat here.

But she says she is with the order of the Sisters of Divine Providence convents. Fun lady. Yeah, that's a party lady. She is Meryl Streep from Dallas. She goes down to the skatepark, smokes weed with the kids. She heard about pedophilia and just thinks everybody does it. So that's what they do, their dirty penises. I see it with your penis making buttholes in your basement. I know it's going on down there.

That movie is fucking uncomfortable. Oh, yeah, that is uncomfortable.

She says that she and other choir members have smelled alcohol on Marianne's breath during choir practice. Now, if I had to go to church choir practice, you bet your ass I'd be drinking beforehand to have more fun, like the way to do it. Yeah, because you're not you're not going to, like, operate heavy equipment or do math or anything. You're going to fucking sing and have a good time. So people like to drink when they dance, so why not drink when they sing karaoke.

And you would break into like some word in the song, remind you of another song. Yeah. Melody hits just right. And then you just hit the remix button and then Shorty got low. Low.

I would, I would, I would be another song. I try to overpower them. I'm louder and louder and drunk in church ladies with my horrible rendition of some dirty fucking song that I wrote at the Bottom Jades.

It's right that I'm making up new words resolutely. That would be fun. I wouldn't mind it. I will ruin if I had a good singing voice. I'd love to be part of the choir and just fuck it all up.

I'd be fantastic. I would love to run somebody's squired. I can't sing it all. Now I know how to imitate other people. Sing. Yeah, I can't sing them myself. I just can make fun of others. Singing Plug my nose and sound like Phil Collins who I met that doing now. So yeah they say now she seems like by the way, sister sister Patricia over here with the divine Providence Convent's, she seems like she's never met a person whom she did not smell alcohol.

Am I right or wrong? Yeah. Everybody see me. She's like I smell alcohol on his breath. Babies. Yeah, that baby's been drinking.

Everyone's been drinking or like is trying to do some weird sexual thing. In her mind, she's just weird. So now she wants to have more kids and she's really pushed for this to have more kids.

He didn't really he wasn't real excited about it. As you know, I don't know when a guy has three kids, there's not a lot.

Some guys are like, I want eight. But most guys aren't like that. Most guys are like, that's enough that I wanted a lot.

And then I had to. And I don't want another one of these.

Yeah, my my brother originally was like, yeah, my wife wants five and then they just had a second one. Now they have two under two and he's like, I don't want any more kids. It's crazy. I'm done. Yeah. I'm going to have an accident in the garage or medical accident. And I had a friend with two, they had a third and they're and they're different people. The third change to that changes. Everything changes once you're outnumbered.

It's not it's triage at that point. It's crazy. Once you're outnumbered, you're basically just playing prevent defense. You're just like a safety that's back kind of like the whole time up. So a lot of good. Just keep it in front of you. Keep it in front of you. You broke formation, God damn it. So just no touchdowns, right? No one plays. Just keep it in front. Let them pick up 15 yards bucket, but just keep it in front.

And the third one is the hardest to control. Of course, that's how it is. It's you can't do that. Three is too many. It's crazy over there. Can't be outnumbered. And she wants another. You're dumb. She's so wild. It's how could you you know, at that point you're just controlling and hurting. And it's more like having a lot of puppies or something sharper. Keep them over there.

You just trying to keep everyone alive and you leave your job to go be a baby shepherd. Yeah, it's brutal. There's no joy. No, that's not smiling. Very few moments of joy. So now she actually going toward late October and into November. She has an appointment and plans to be artificially inseminated. Oh, actually, as a matter of fact. So she's going through with it hard core.

She wants to do this and wants to be involved or not. Exactly. He didn't really want to have more kids, but he's like, well, I guess I'll bust off in a cup for you there and, you know, whatever for sure.

Or somebody else's. Either way, yeah, I can't control it. There you go. So she she's really making plans for this soldier. I mean, she quit her job to be a full time mother. She's like, I'm going to get pregnant. I'm going to take care of these kids in the house. And she's she's getting into what she's talking about, having a kid of her own. She is in full nesting mode at this moment in time, which is fine.

And she she's also when they got married, they have life insurance policies on each other, of course. One hundred thousand dollars apiece. So that's nice. Now, November 7th, nineteen ninety four, this is about four days before her artificial insemination. Important appointment. So this is go time coming up here now, this night, it's a Sunday. Tim calls the paramedics and the police to his home here in Ross Township. Obviously, the first officer arrives on the scene, comes in the home, and he finds Tim attempting to revive Marianne, who is unconscious in the hot tub or near the hot tub because he pulled her out of the hot tub.

He told the paramedics he was freaking out. He said that Mary and she drank like 14 beers last night. He's got real shitfaced. They were celebrating, I guess he said they were celebrating an upcoming event, which seems to be the that they're going to be artificially inseminated. I don't know if she this is her last night to drink or whatever, but I should probably clarify for a few that I don't know how that works to a 48 hour cleanse.

I mean, I feel like you want to kind of make the the environment inhabitable for a couple of days. I don't know how. Maybe not got a nest. Your womb also. I don't know. Maybe you want to do math the night before. I don't know what maybe that'll perk up the womb and more make it more adaptable to grab shit. I have no idea how these things get the VCR's bubbling in there.

I don't know if this is going to come as a shock to everybody but Jimmy and myself. Neither of us are medical professionals.

Not a well, yeah, you're right. Yeah. You know, I mean, I know sometimes you might confuse it, obviously, you know, we sound like we are, but no, it's shocking. We're not I don't know anything actually. So they've been celebrating. He said he left the he left her in the hot tub when he went inside to take a shower and that he came back and she was unconscious, face up in the hot tub.

OK, so he's like, I don't know if she passed out from the booze and I don't know what the hell happened here. She hit her head just trying to revive her. So police officers and the paramedics and everybody, they pull her out of the hot tub. They attempt to revive her. They can't revive her right there. So they need to there's an ambulance and they got her in the rush her to the hospital. It's a this is very touch and go.

Obviously, there's, you know, an unconscious woman that's been in water. Sure. So that's bad. You're dealing with you don't know how long he's been the oxygen for brain damage brain. Right. Could be a lot of bad things as this.

As we all know from this, you hear about kids falling in pools and oxygen deprivation will change your whole makeup. I yeah, I would say of ruin your brain. I mean, that's why you need oxygen. So Detective Gary Waters is the first detective to get to the scene and he arrives about three o'clock in the morning at the scene here and he has a quick conversation with Tim. He notices that there's a scratch mark on Tim's neck. So he makes note of that.

They take Marianne to Allegheny General Hospital and which, by the way, you wonder why I do these reviews, by the way, then take him to the hospital.

Allegheny, which is not the closest hospital, as we know from that very detailed review of medical facilities that I gave you for a fucking reason. So there are hospitals right around, but at the insistence of Tim, they take her to Allegheny General Hospital further on the further one. That's the one, I guess. I think that's the bigger one. But he said that's the one I wanted to go to, which is more time going by now.

They're they work on her, but she is pronounced dead at the hospital.

Oh, yeah. So Marianne dies in the hot tub, damn it. Yeah, not good. So that's that's that's a rough thing. The autopsy that they do reveals that her death was caused by asphyxiation resulting from blunt force trauma to her neck. Oh.

Which if you slip in a tub also if you fall and hit your head and then you would drown. So, baby, that's what I mean, is that things happen. You know what I mean? It happens a lot the other day. Sorry. You know, those big those balls that people sit on. Yeah. Like exercise protocol. Yes. Sarah has one of those she likes to bounce and mess around the other day she's up, she has it up by the camera and she's on her knee.

On the counter.

Yeah. Yeah. I was like, what options are out there? And there's granite countertops and she's like up at the counter bounce and on and on her knees. And I'm like, if that thing shoots out from fucking behind you, you're went into there and I am getting blamed for murdering it. No one's believing this has happened. So I said, I'm taking a picture I literally took a picture of. Her on her knees by the thing waving at me, I'm like, your defense.

Yes, this is what you're doing first. And I'm going to say, I told her not to do this. And then she killed herself. Yeah, because Nice said, if anything happens to you, look, I'm not the murder guy. They're going to fucking think I did something wrong. They're going to be like guys been researching that. But forget about it. He's been for years. But this guy, he must think he's got a way to get away with it.

Like, no, like, I you have to be so careful. Yeah.

I always tell her that God damn careful getting into the top. Careful, don't slip. Yeah. We've kind of put ourselves into having zero relationships anyway. Yeah. No, I can't talk to my kids anymore. So if anything happens to them, I'm the guy.

Of course. Yeah, we're fucked. We just have to sit in the basement and make dentures and pretend it's a butthole.

I don't know what we're supposed to do anymore.

I don't know what we can do and can't give me the voxels. Stencil. James, I got another molar. OK, here you go. Hold on. I'm finishing at first. You don't have it when I'm done, Graveling. When I'm done. One second. We've got to get two of these really about this down here. We've got to. Yes, we only have one. We have one.

It's a write off. Let's get two more molars than any other tooth. And we only got one of them.

We have one stencil. This is ridiculous. And get our shit together.

So the autopsy also shows numerous points of trauma of a recent origin on Maryanne's body and head, including hemorrhages on her neck and bruises on the interior of her scalp, which were inconsistent with the treatment that they're saying. That's not damage from trying to revive her, because in a scene like a lot of times, they'll be broken ribs and shit. That's the revival attempt. That's the CPR and stuff. So the margins don't go on the skull. Yeah, exactly.

Well, have bruises and they'll have all sorts of broken ribs and then oh they fucking slam fists on them, they punch the shit out.

So yeah, sometimes that'll end up happening and then they'll go. There was all these injuries and they go yeah the fucking right bounced up and down on this person. Paramedics. Yeah. There you go. Fat paramedics. Pittsburgh. Yeah. Guy's a happy guy. He just came from that hockey bar at the hotel. I was, he ate those wings with the whiskey barbecue sauce. It was delicious. And the penguins lost. So he was he's pissed off.

They have with Sidney Crosby a fucking breathe. Damn you crazy. It's just beating on him. Yeah. So that happens though.

So but this is inconsistent with that with this poor woman, Maryanne's blood alcohol level at the time of her death. Now here's a big thing, because Tim's been telling everybody she's drinking and her friends are like, I don't know about this.

Her blood alcohol level is point to two percent.

That's a lot. Which is a shit load of booze. Yeah, that's about three times like the legal driving limit in this state.

And that's that's a lot. That's a lot. Yeah, it's blurry. I mean that is really blurry. Another you point three three is like you're going to die. Yeah.

So that's we're getting because generally you're deceased, you're John Bonham level like it's not God not drunk, it's bad stuff.

So this is point to two is a one that's a lot.

So that's you've got to be a pro to even get to point to two. I imagine you got to handle those pretty well.

I don't think I could get point to two. I don't think I could get that far because I'm just I don't like to drink that much. So I would be well before that point, I would have quit drinking. It would have become less not fun for me anymore. It depends on what I'm drinking, because if I'm drinking beer, I don't get as drunk because I don't drink as many of them. Because bloat. How could you be. Yeah, as I get older too.

So embarrassing it it blows further and then I just feel fucking gross. Yeah but wine. I'll drink like a bottle. I'm sure that's more than point to two right now. A bottle of wine, bottle of wine, a whole bottle to yourself. That's not fast. Now point to two is still pretty hammered. That's more than that. That's what I mean. That's how hammered point to two point two. Two is pretty fucking hammered. I'll drink like a fifth of whiskey like I did at St.

Louis. Chill. I drank a fifth there.

That was alarming. I was a loss a lot. I don't know if I was that drunk though. Yeah. I may not have been that drunk. Well, she said it was. It was he said it was 13 to 15 beers. That's so many, that's a lot of beers and ah that would be the equivalent of like basically like four bottles of wine.

Oh boy.

So point to two is that that's like two gallons of liquid. That's a shit load. Fuck man. That's a lot man I would think. Yeah.

You could drink two gallons of Pepsi and you'd fucking you pop you'd, you'd go unconscious in a hot tub I would imagine you. So now before she's taken to the hospital, as they're taking her out, Tim spontaneously tells one of the detectives, quote, I hope they don't try to put this on me, which is a strange thing to say, Tim.

And in a tragedy like that, I mean, that's just odd. Yeah. I don't know if you're worried about that questions. Tim Yeah. Tim Well, now I want to ask you about it. I felt. Bad for you, but now let's have a conversation. There was zero thought of that a minute ago, Tim, Tim. So about three forty five a.m. Detectives Waters and James Svitak. Well, Steve, his name starts with a boy, Cybertech.

We're going to call him Kovacic, empathetic or sympathetic to Steve KVI svitak or Kivett, I'm not sure.

And it could be so right. It could be awkward. You know what? I don't know. I don't know what's going on. Yeah, it's something some James guy in a polka band put it that way. Detective Pokolbin, Detective James Polke, he spoke to Tim and noted that Tim had a small injury on his left thumb. So he notes that and the other guy noticed a scratch on his neck. A little more questions go on here, a few more.

And the detectives asked him if he would come down to the police station, tell you, OK, let's go down to the police station, because the kids are, by the way, sleeping in the house. No, no, no. They're not sleeping there. They've been we'll talk about where they went, but they they're sleeping. So let's go down there. We don't want to disturb the kids and let's just, you know, do all of that.

So he said, sure, why not? And he agrees to give us the gives the detectives the clothes he'd been wearing earlier in the evening and all that sort of thing. They take him to the police station. He's not handcuffed or anything like that. They just drive him down there. Why caravan like a bunch of fucking crazy people. We'll give you a ride. Yeah, we're nice people here. I guess so. Watch it. Breathe.

Yeah, Tim is with the police and they look at him and they're, you know, just while he's sitting there and under the the lights of the police station or fluorescents are a little more than near your house. So they start noticing some scratch marks on his arms and sides and hands and of scratch marks on him.

So they he also they talked to him a little bit. And basically they after some conversation, they ask him, they may not even ask him. They kind of say, you did something, didn't you? Like you had something to do with this, didn't you? This isn't an accident like your wife's death is. Something's going on here. And he nodded like. Yes, yes. That's what he nodded. So they're like, OK, this is very interesting the way this worked.

They kept him in a room in the basement from four twenty a.m. until eleven thirty pm. That's what he says.

Now that's that's a long time for thirty a.m. to eleven thirty pm pm that is that's too long. It's almost 17 hours. It's a long time. Yeah. It's a fucking 19 hours. It's a long time.

Oh it's a long usually after about eight hours of interrogation. This is an interrogation though so it's different. But eight hours of interrogation is after that. The judges you start looking at that's getting thrown out, the judges will start tossing that shit because it's appeal date after that.

So they said they didn't they never afforded him a specific option to leave. They weren't like, well, you can go, but he was never under arrest. So he could have left. But they weren't like in every five minutes, by the way, you're allowed to leave whenever you want it. It was assumed. Yeah, he was photographed. His wounds were photographed. They did a polygraph. They asked him if you do a polygraph that's voluntary, they don't have to do a polygraph.

He could have said, I'm not doing that. But it looks bad if you're not, you know, don't do the polygraph to be eliminated as a suspect as they tell you. Yeah. So he he they do that. He's interviewed by detectives. He claims he's had no opportunity to sleep either before or after he was transported and was at the police station. He hasn't slept and all this sort of thing. So he figured he later on he'll say, I thought I was being detained the whole time, you know what I mean?

I thought I was being detained and the detectives didn't. The autopsy wasn't even done yet while they were talking to him. They were just going on suspicions. And but, you know, he says that he shouldn't he says they should have let him go anyway. OK, now, they arrived at the police station at four twenty a.m. This is how it went down. He's interviewed until about five forty five a.m. So that's only an hour. Twenty five minutes then.

This was in the basement office, so they didn't like, stick him in a hole in the basement. This was Detective Walter's office in the basement. So at all times they said he was alert and responsive. Five thirty a.m. he signed a consent form allowing police to photograph the scratches on his body, take fingernail scrapings and obtain items found near or around the hot tub. Yeah, so he's letting them do an investigation, basically. Also, he's agreed to submit to a polygraph during the time he was they said he was free to move about the police station.

He wasn't in like a locked room. He could like he would get up and go to the bathroom and go get a drink out of the water fountain. And he was not like a suspect at this point, is what they said he was. He could move around between 6:00 a.m. and when the polygraph examiner was contacted and eight fifteen a.m. when they arrived at the police station, he ate breakfast with the officers.

They discussed football and do their. It's I mean, it's yeah, it's it's November, yeah, it's, you know, I don't know Bill Keller, I like the way he's got that Kordell Stewart, this guy I know about, that guy, you know, I don't know. You know, he played receiver, too, but I like him. I like the fact that he can play a lot of positions, slash, slash. They call him like he's running around.

I like. And that Barry Foster boys. I'll tell you what, he's running around everywhere. I like him. He's going to plow right over people that Barry Foster. I hope he's good at one fucking thing.

Yeah, I'll tell you what. He's so they talk about that. They talk about their kids, talk about other bullshit. Who knows? He never said that he was like extra tired or that he wanted to go home or that he needed to take a nap or anything like that. He did request permission to contact his father to ask about his children, and he was allowed to do that, see if they're OK.

Now, the the polygraph examiner, who is a guy named Trooper Richard Eeling, he gets to the station and he tells him what's going on. That's at that point they advise him of his Miranda rights because he's going to be asked very pointed questions. So got to be now he's a once you're anything question like that, you have to be Mirandized. So he signed an explicitly he signed a form waiving rights that were, you know, subjected to the polygraph examination.

They told him he's free to leave. He couldn't be forced to take the examination. They went over all that shit with him. It's all written down. He signed it. Yeah, the starts at ten, fifteen a.m. and they said once they're done, it doesn't take very long. The trooper tells him that he failed you failed the lie detector. You failed at miserably. Basically, he got your name right outside of that. Not so much pretty bad stuff.

He said the this guy expressed the belief that he was responsible for his wife's death, and that's when he nodded. Yes. Now, this is one of those a good polygraph examiner is there. They don't even need the machine. The machine could be not even hooked up to anything. It's not even plugged in. It doesn't matter. Body language is everything.

You saw that Chris watched one. She had him shitting in his pants.

The way she put it, it's unbelievable. She's like, well, we're both going to know the truth here in a minute, huh? And she's just like you could see, he's just like, oh, I'm fucked right now.

One person in this room knows the truth. But in a minute, two people she left behind. Isn't that fun? That's how she knows what he's like. Yeah, that's that's terrific. Scared shitless because. What do you ask? Yeah, you just got to go. Yeah. Yeah, it's great. Cool. What do you say. But cool. Like that was her job. She seemed to really be into it.

So what you would love nail in that asshole to kill this fucking kids and his wife. You. Oh you'd want to be like yeah.

Let's find out. Oh would you look at that. I'd be a total dick to him. But in one I mean possibly the worst way the it could only be worse if he if he sexually did anything to those children, that would be the only thing worse, really. Just a disgusting monster way of murdering children.

The horrible he's a nightmare. What's a wife, obviously. And obviously. Yeah, the wife. We're just taking the kids because that's extra.

Oh, at least you can have a you can have a legitimate problem. Not that he did what you could have a legitimate problem with an adult, with whatever was between you is whatever. But the kid's not the the on the scumbag Minar. You invented those. Yeah. You know, you created them. Yeah. They didn't ask to be. Oh. So so he tells them that Tim nods that. Yeah. He had something to do with it.

It's at this point that Tim says, quote, This is pretty serious. Maybe I should call someone but he doesn't say lawyer doesn't say a lawyer doesn't say what lawyer. He doesn't say I want to call a lawyer. You have to specifically opt out of an interview with the lawyer. You can't just go. Maybe I should call a lawyer. They'll go. Well, maybe you should. But first, maybe let's talk about this for a minute.

I mean, if you call a lawyer who knows, you have to say, I will not answer any more questions until I have a fucking lawyer. Right. So anyway, he even then, they'll still ask you questions till he gets there or they get there, I should say. So I just pictured some scumbag dude sorry. So he can just got out of the basement with his dentures.

So he says that they tell me he failed the polygraph and he says, you know, again, they remind him of his Miranda rights. He doesn't have to talk if he doesn't want to, but he then again affirms that he nods when they talk about it. The death, all three officers confront him with their belief that he caused Marianne's death. And he again nodded.

Yeah, one of the waters, this detective, he said, quote, I told him, There's no doubt in my mind that you caused your wife's death. I know you want to get it off your chest. And he said that. He nodded. Yes. Then he said, I'll tell you what really happened when I have my attorney here said, I will talk about it then. So he told the officers that he would tell them what happened once.

James Herb, who's as a lawyer, once he gets there, once Jimmy Herb gets here, Warren, so they said, OK, all questioning stopped. They called the they called. The attorney at 11, 30 a.m., he was transported, that was a typo, it's 11, 30 AM, not PM. OK, they didn't keep him there for seven hours. Yeah, that was a typo in the court document. Thanks. State of Pennsylvania.

So at 11, 30 a.m., he's transported no restraints still to police headquarters. This is where they give him the fingernail scrapings and all that sort of thing. At noon, he signed a consent to search his clothing and body and cooperated with the physician who did his physical examination of the fingernail scrapings and his scratches and everything like that. His attorney arrived there at about two o'clock and met with Tim alone for about an hour at the police station following the meeting.

Detective Charvet cosmetics of ataxic shredding genetic. It's such an ugly night as I read it very well. Could be svec.

He then told him of his Miranda rights. Again, this was in the presence of the attorney and he said that he didn't want to make any further statements and that was that.

So that's how that worked without his lawyer and his lawyer showed up, his lawyer showed up.

And then he was like I told him, I tell him what happened once you got here. And the lawyer was like, what are you out of your fucking mind, you dumb? Now that I'm here, you're not saying anything else at all.

We at the law offices of herbs and spices, you know, of herbs, spices, rosemary, time and then trust red pepper, crushed red pepper, you know.

Yeah.

So they end up they end up arresting him, obviously, for this. They think he killed his wife. So they're going to arrest him.

And her family feels bad because her family feels like to be miss signs of this. Dad was there like, you know, could we have stopped this or whatever? They they don't know. They said that the one her aunt, Marianne's aunt, said his first wife's death always bothered her and, you know, never knew the circumstances. And now she wishes she would have really thought about it and asked more questions. She said, When I found out right away, I said he murdered her.

He murdered her. He murdered her, his niece and her niece.

So relatives are pissed off and they're mad at him. Basically, they want to fuck him. They're mad at him as I don't blame him.

So anyway, in jail, he makes incriminating statements to fellow inmates, not one that several.

Yeah, he basically he basically pulls a what's her name?

Jesus Christ. There is no I can't remember her real name now.

The Manson girl. Oh, the main one. No. Now that went by Sadie make love. Oh, God. Susan Atkins. Susan Atkins. Eric, I have to say that Susan Atkins, when she was in jail, just basically told everybody they didn't even she wasn't even in for she's in for something else. And she was just telling everybody, you know, is that Sharon Tate? I killed her just like, you know, given details of the whole thing up.

Oh, yeah. It's telling her everything, telling everybody everything. That's how she got busted. That's how they all got busted, was cellmates of hers, told the cops to get their dime reduced.

So he was tall. And he said that, yeah, I you know, yeah, I killed my wife. You know, this happened. And he said, I don't know, it was stupid. I guess that's what he said. That was stupid, wasn't it? Is what he said to his cellmate. Like, probably, yeah. Now this is no dumber than telling a stranger.

Yeah, I was no shit. I don't know. It's the first dumb thing you've done. I guess this is not much smarter. A guy named Randy Irwin, who's an inmate there, he said that he, Randy, kept notes of conversations he had with he said, oh, fuck, yeah.

He kept notes about the deaths of the wife of the wife during a three week period when they were both incarcerated in the county jail. At one point, he asked him why he killed his wife and he said, I don't know, that was stupid.

So that's his thing that he does. He just tells everyone, I don't know, that was stupid. Well, now this is this guy's taking notes, go out in the cell. He's like this and that at some bitch said that. That's hilarious. And out of this DUI.

So the next day, the police here they go. Hold on a second. We think he killed his wife here. Didn't his first wife die, too? Yeah, we had some digging to do. Hold on a minute.

Let's call the police down where he's from and find out how she died. So they call Greensboro, North Carolina. Oh, it's all the way down there where he's from. And they go, yeah, we got this guy. We know his wife died down there. And he this is what happened there, by the way. What's the deal with the first wife? And they find out, oh, she died in the bathtub. Yeah, yeah, in the bathtub.

So they go interesting. Yeah, accidental. And they went, yeah, yeah. It was an accidental death. And they go, you might want to look into that a little more because you've got a Home Depot and grab some shovels. Yeah, we got a we got a hot tub. Dead wife of. That's pretty similar. Yeah, yeah, so he they're going to look into this now. So now he's got a lot of problems.

He used to be married to marry another marry Mary Ellen Pega by bus Koski. Elaine is what she goes by. Birth date.

Nineteen fifty six.

So same age as the other marry. When he lived in Greensboro, they ran a miniature golf course and an ice cream shop together. Totally different thing. Wow. Really?

We are just into something. How so. So NetJets Densher make it more specific in a four year period, not only into it enough to make a really good living. Right.

It's wild. I don't know. Hockeytown. It's kind of smart though. I guess so.

Yeah it looks like and a lot of lot of the November 4th, 1990. Let's go to by the way, the other one was November 7th. Nineteen ninety for November 4th. Nineteen ninety in Greensboro, North Carolina. This is coming from a neighbor.

OK, now, by the way, we know that he claimed and the second wife consumed 14 beers and some wine on the day she died and he left her in the hot tub and all that. Now, that's that how that one goes.

Liz Maple, the neighbor, the neighbor, she says that her and Elaine talked all the time and that Elaine, before she died, had recently told Tim that she wanted a separation. Elaine couldn't. Dad said she couldn't afford to leave him yet, so she borrowed clothes and shoes from her neighbor so she could look for a job as a secretary. She didn't have, like, work clothes. So she's that's how bad she wants out of this.

And she needs to get a job and she needs to make her way the fuck out of here, get away from this guy. So Elaine had told her neighbor that she hoped that she could start over and get out of there with her children by January of 91. That's two months away from this thing in six weeks.

Yeah, well, that was because she was about to receive a large settlement from an insurance company for injuries she suffered in a car accident. So this was as soon as she said when I got that check, rather than depositing it in the family account, I am bouncin with the kids and getting my own spot on my own place. So that's that's our plan. But November 4th, 1990, at two fifty AM, Liz Mabel Maples, the neighbor, opens the door to Tim.

Standing there in the middle of the night is two fifty a.m. and he's it's cold outside. It's November in Pittsburgh and he's shirtless outside standing at the door. Greensboro Greens I'm sorry, in Greensboro. Either way, cold, cold in the winter. It's North Carolina. It's freezing. In the winter, it snows. It's hell down there. One hundred and humid in the summer, fucking snowing in the winter. It's the worst climate ever. Let's move down there.

The worst of both worlds. Yeah, awful shit. So anyway, she says that he looked, you know, all sorts of not together at that moment. He's got shirtless. It's cold, he's got scratches on him. There's she said he has vomit stuck in his chest hair. So that's not a good sign. Terrible. Yeah, that looks bad. And he says something's wrong with the lane. Can you take care of the kids is what she says.

So she says, yeah, sure, I guess. Why not? His story is he heard a thump in the bathroom that night and he went to investigate and found his wife submerged in the bathtub. And he told police that she drank too much at a church dance that night and must have slipped in the bathtub. He's got a lot of boozy girls, a lot of boozy Churchie girls. He likes Buzy, Churchie and clumsy as fuck. He likes them Buzy and Churchie and Wantirna.

So that's what he likes. He likes a very specific woman of the Boosie churchwomen, unstable on her feet. Wow. Yeah. Great mother loves Schertz drunk as the day is long. That's the type of guy he likes. Everybody likes. That's a really good thing.

So at two fifty five a.m., emergency personnel were summoned by him to their apartment in Greensborough. Rescue personnel from the fire department and the Myrt Medical Services were directed to the second floor bathroom by the children. So they were still around. The rescuers found Tim attempting to perform CPR on his wife, which is a familiar scene we've heard of before. Who was nude on the floor, as you would be, you know, if you were taking a bath.

She wasn't breathing and had no pulse. Bad signs over bad signs, one in all. Sure, they attempted to resuscitate her, but failed. And she's rushed to the hospital where she is pronounced dead at four sixteen a.m. So not great at the police department.

They take him down, obviously, to chat about it. He tells them that he was estranged from his wife even though they were still living together. They weren't really together. She wanted a separation. She said they separately attended their church social that evening. They went in separate cars and that his wife had been drinking out. A hall before the church function and then after the church function, they came home alone. He came home alone about 12, 40 is what he tells them at first.

But he gave a couple of different versions. One version he claimed he was listening to headphones while he was asleep in the master bedroom and was awakened when he heard a noise in the bedroom. And he said that he used a screwdriver to pop the lock of the bathroom door when he got no answer after knocking in another version, he said he was listening to music downstairs on the headphones and heard a noise in the bathroom. And he said he took the hinges off the door to get into the bathroom.

Oh, those are two very different ways of getting into the room. Yeah, popping a lock and taking the hinges off. You'd remember taking hinges off. Yeah, it'd be one thing if you go. I can't remember if it was locked and I had to jam it or if I just I don't remember.

But taking hinges off is a aren't the hinge usually on the side there on the inside.

Otherwise why would you bother having to just take it off. Just a little easier to come in.

Weird. So very, very strange in here.

So he claims though in both versions that he she was lying on her back in the tub with her head underwater. He said he pulled her head up, placed her nightgown under her head and pushed her on her stomach to force the water out. That's what he was saying. That's what he said. He said that vomit came out of her mouth instead of water. Yeah, that's what he said. And then he says that he lifted her out of the bathtub and again tried to force water from her by pushing and squeezing on her abdomen and attempting CPR.

And that's when he said after he after he couldn't revive or he called nine one one, I'd say call nine one one, then try to revive. Yeah, but I guess you don't want to waste time. You try to revive, you just see or you might just dive into it, start trying to revive it and be like on the other end of the phone generally.

I generally know what you should be doing. That's the other thing through it. Yeah. I don't know if it's, you know, running an ice cream shop. Maybe he's got it on it. Really good at it. It's Pittsburgh. Anyone could drop that at any moment. So there was no they do a little investigation. There was no evidence that there was ever water in the tub that night at all, which is he said he found her submerged.

OK, so no evidence there was water. No alcohol was found in her system? None. None. OK, who got zero? So that's odd. She had vomit in her lungs and an autopsy showed it could lower vomit in her lungs, bruising on her head and body, cracked ribs and lines across her chest and abdomen. That's what it said. Now they are both wives are within a year. One was thirty five, one was thirty six when they died.

This both happened on a Sunday in November. Yeah, both wives weigh the exact have the same exact weight when they died. One hundred and fifty one pounds on both of their parts. One hundred fifty one pound married, one hundred and fifty one pounds named Mary Wilde. All of this type of shit by the way, they're both buried in the same cemetery. Their graves are in the same section, Jimmy, while they're in the same fucking area of the cemetery.

That is while that is insanity too much, it's weird. It's weird. So the autopsy they do on her, they found all these bruises, a diagonal pattern of three parallel lines measuring nine to 11 inches long, impressed on her stomach. In addition, five fresh bruises on the interior of her scalp. And only one of the five bruises could have resulted from someone falling and hitting their head in the bathtub, they said.

Now, toxicology report report said no alcohol or antidepressants in her blood at all. And the doctor ended up saying they could not determine the cause of her death. But the doctor does say that she it's in their opinion that Elin did not die from drowning something else. Her death is certify her death certificate indicates her cause of death is undetermined and it just never is. That one stays open, don't know what happened. So that's how he skates in. And now now they're reopening it.

It's a little ways to do it, right? It's homicide, accidental natural causes or undetermined.

Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah. So undetermined. We're here now. So the problem is there's people with some. This doesn't seem like it was. So it's such a mystery. The evidence shows that as a medical emergency, medical personnel arrived at the apartment. The three children were taken to the neighbor's house. Like we said, Jerry Mintern arrived at the at the apartment at approximately 10:00 a.m. to help the family. It's a family friend. While at the apartment, the neighbor told Mintern earlier that she heard I'm sorry that the young daughter told the neighbor that.

And she's, I think, ten at this point that she heard her parents arguing and her mother telling her father, no, Tim, no, stop.

Wow. So that's a big deal. Later that same day, Mintern, the the friend here went upstairs with the young Sandy to help her pack some clothes to. Spend the night at someone else's house as they walk past the bathroom where this all happened, Sandy said that again, that she heard her parents arguing and she heard her mom say that. So, you know, that's that's interesting. Sure. There are these that that'll come in handy. If you're going to charge the guy at the next door, neighbor, Liz Maple's, like we said, she lived next door.

She said that Elaine twice told her that Tim told Alayne she was going to kill her. So she told her neighbor that she's going to kill her twice a week before the death and again the day before the death. My she said, yeah, Tim said he's going to kill me. At one point, Mabel said that she characterized Lane as frightful, terrified and scared and really wanting to get out of the house. She said that on the night of the death, the he requested that he care, she care for the children and he accompany the lane to the hospital, blah, blah, blah.

Mabel will then say that he brought the children over at about 3:00 a.m., but she put them to bed right away and whatever. The next morning when they were eating breakfast, she's feeding the kids breakfast. The five year old kid says, quote, My mommy was screaming so loud last night, I had to put my hands over my ears. Oh, that's loud. She wouldn't stop screaming. And I saw her in the bathroom holding her hands up and daddy told me to get out.

Mm hmm.

That's I mean, what the fuck? Oh, boy. That's I don't know what you what else? I mean, it's a kid. So it's a five year old. I don't know.

They're not looking at that as the most reliable, but that's usually the most reliable five year olds. Yeah, I don't know.

I saw five year olds will tell crazy story. Sure. But that's very specific. That's if she if he said I walk by and then Barney was in there and then SpongeBob came. Right. And then the fucking you know, the wonder pets were there. And like, if that's that would be a different story when we all went on a trip and solve the crime. Yeah. And then the little Einsteins took me on a rocket ship. That would be different.

It's going to work. Teamwork. I go, OK, yeah, that's fine. But this is what I did was pretty specific, specific investigation where they interview the child, the child said. And then I saw the monster appear and they're like, all right, kids. And then like, got him. And then they're like, oh, my God, they're he's talking about his dad and that's his dad. When his dad gets drunk and mean he's the monster.

Yeah.

And his dad killed mom, that makes sense that sometimes you just got to pay attention what the kid says.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, until they start bringing up mystical characters, that's the thing.

And shit like that. An Easter Bunny isn't shit. But, you know, this is something that specific that's not like something like whimsical a kid with makeup. I saw my mommy and they were screaming and then daddy told me to get out. Oh, isn't that fun? And it was so loud I had to cover my ears. Yeah, that doesn't seem right here. So back to Ross Township. Paramedics learned here that when when police pulled Marianne out of the water and tried to revive her, paramedics learned that Tim had previously attempted to resuscitate her.

And they interviewed him and noticed that he had scratch marks on his neck and a fresh neck on his thumb. They asked him to remove his shirt and they saw fresh red marks on his back and all that sort of thing. He claimed he was sunburned and Marianne had given him a scratch massage, OK, but they noticed that he was pale and not sunburned at all.

And it's November in Pittsburgh. Except you're not pink, sir. Yeah.

Have you been to the Caribbean lately? Because the sun hasn't been out here in three months. Let's be honest. Yeah, we've had a grey has the sun's been up for four hours a day.

Yeah. Four hours and it's very, very cold. You don't even know you put it out even through a window. I don't feel he feels like the sun's broken. It's not working correctly. Someone needs to check on that. So I've the also the autopsy revealed all that other stuff. And they concluded the doctor Rozen here concluded that Mary and the second wife died as a result of a homicide by manual strangulation, not by natural causes.

Oh, this is an undetermined at all suicide. There's five suicide. They're going to get so many tweets. But yeah. Yeah, well, damn it, that's that's on them because they should've listened longer.

Whenever anybody does that I'd ever take is anything I got. Well, if you were to fucking listen five minutes long before you tweeted, keep your fucking phone in your pocket, listen to the whole thing and tweet, then stand. I have no sympathy for someone that does wait till the end when I beg for your help.

Yeah. No, don't exactly. You hear something? Don't take your phone off. Wait five minutes. Maybe it's fucking maybe we got it right. Give it a second. How about pay attention to the show. Listen and then tweet later. As I said, I'll come by then. Maybe you forget that. So goddamn important that there you go.

Maybe the thing that doesn't matter at all to you, the two seconds of a two and a half hours, maybe let it go by then.

So and now sometimes if we if it's something we don't. No, we're happy to get the information, but if it's something that we correct ourselves, we're good. So the bruises here, they said they were all fresh and everything like that. Now Tim is arrested for a lane as well. And he he's going to say that she accidentally drowned the first wife and that Mary Ann died from a heart attack while in the hot tub. That was that's his that's his game.

Doctor Tim Marijan slipped, fell, killed herself. Accident. I'm sorry.

Elaine Marijan heart attack drown from the heart attack. That's how it works. The kids give interviews here later on and they they talk and the kids. This is on while the children slept, an episode of American just about like, oh, boy, tell us about it. Bill Wallace.

They said they supported their father's innocence. They said whether he's guilty or innocent, I'm still going to love him. That's just the one kid said. So they go to trial for a lane here.

First, the state presented contrary evidence from a from Randy Irwin, who was the guy who took notes in the cell, everything the other guy said. Irwin testified that he was reading a newspaper article about Marianne and Elaine's murders. When Tim came up and said, quote, I'm famous, I'm the hot tub man. Oh, my, I'm the hot tub man. Take it easy, Whirlpool. The hot tub man.

Jesus Christ. I'm the hot tub man.

Oh, good for you. Not a good thing to be the hot tub man. Sounds like a guy who blows. Other guy's in a hot tub. It sounds like he sits there waiting. You come in, you take your towel off a certain way and that means I'll jerk you off right then. I mean, like, that's what that sounds like. He's just the creep that's already in the Jacuzzi in hot tub that's down there. He's down there naked again.

Never mind. No, he's got nothing on under those bubbles. I know it. He said that he testifies that he asked him why he killed both women the same way. And that's when Tim was like, I don't know why you're on it. Yeah, that's the way you do it.

So they go to they said that at this point they get to introduce evidence of Marijan into this as well. I'm Blane's trial and there's a specific law here. When the accused contends a victim's death was an accident rather than a homicide, evidence of similar acts may be offered to show that the act in dispute was not inadvertent or accidental. So if someone says an accident, he's got a history of that same accident happening. You can introduce that evidence, but it's that specific to outside shit.

Otherwise, it's character or it's different.

If it's showing a pattern, there's a difference.

Yeah. So the court follows found these similarities that it's a through I so both alleged victims were women and married to Tim. Obviously both victims died at the home they shared with Tim and and he was present when both of them died. He was the last person to see both of them alive to perform CPR on each. When emergency personnel arrived, he that the alleged victim died in or around a bathtub and the other one died in or around a hot tub, that he made statements in both cases that his wife had accidentally drowned, that he made statements in both cases that his wife had a drinking problem and said that a drinking problem continued contributed to her death, that both women were similar physically.

Both weighed one hundred and fifty one pounds at the time of death. And in this case, she was thirty four. The other one was thirty five. Both women died on a Sunday in early November and insurance money was involved in both incidents. While that's a lot. It's too much. It's too much. It's too much. Yeah. Kill your wife. One in the spring, one in the fall and you can't do it both. Well, it's wife killing season, right?

Not as it is. Did he get drawn? Oh, boy. You know, it's the holidays are coming up right after C right after Halloween. You got Thanksgiving. All is coming up. You got to get clear everything out and clear. Kill that wife. Clear out for the holidays. You know, it's too much. I got drawn for this.

You would get drawn for wives, just wives, you know, lots of wives.

So they bring seventeen witnesses to testify about the death of Marianne. And he contends the volume of evidence introduced her testimony was was prejudicial against him.

They have too much evidence. That's what he literally said. It's too much evidence. It's not fair. It's overkill. 17, they could have done that with five. Oh, no. We imagine that there's no limit to evidence, much evidence. But they got so they got fingerprints, DNA. They that's too much. It's too much evidence in jail. Come on. It's obviously a conspiracy against me.

All these things, they got my judges, they got my blood, they got my DNA, my fingerprints got hair, they got my butthole print because this guy drew it out for me. I got a lot of problems. The butthole stencil I used.

Yeah, I used my own. What do you think? What do you think, Jesus Christ, one bottle on hand that that is, by the way, my favorite excuse ever. Too much evidence, obviously. That's just overload. That's not fair. Nobody's ever said that, right?

I've never heard, your honor, we object because that's too much evidence against my client. We know we don't feel like it's fair. I've never once heard that I fucking knew one man.

That's that's you know, what I got. I got to give the credit for the legal the balls on it. Way to go. Irv's faster than my arm. The other ball to stand up in court and say I object, Your Honor. Why is that? Well, that's just a lot of evidence and it's just too much. It's not fair, Your Honor. We feel like they're piling on, Your Honor.

They're being jerks.

What do you say to that? How do you fucking get out of that? Yeah, stupid. He shouldn't have left so much evidence. So now the jury instructions in the Lane's trial are as such.

This is what the judge tells the jury, quote, Now, evidence has been received tending to show that Mr. Buzz Koutsky second wife, Marianne Moskovsky, died under similar circumstances. This evidence was recently or was received solely for the purpose of showing that Mr. Biskupski had the intent, which is a necessary element of the crime charged in this case, and for the purpose of showing the absence of accident and explaining some of the circumstances and explaining some of the circumstances, including any delay in charging Mr.

Biskupski arising in the investigation. If you believe this evidence, you may consider it, but only for that limited purpose and for no other purpose on it. So you can't just say we think he killed the other one. So he definitely killed this. Right, which you would definitely do as a human being. I mean, you've got until you can legally instruct whatever you want for your like they both fucking. Come on, Jesus Christ. One hundred fifty hundred fifty one pounds.

Right. I was ready to let him go. I heard they both, they both weighed a buck fifty one. Now I'm not I'm done now this is bullshit and that's I honestly would that that would be my it's to a tipping point not to not link them together.

Right.

So November 1st. Nineteen ninety six is the verdict is his first degree murder and everything like that. And the jury finds him guilty of murdering Alane. So he's guilty now sentencing here. This is a good one. They give him a sentence. He says you, sir, may fuck off life in prison for him in Pennsylvania. OK, now. Ah, I'm sorry. In North Carolina. Life in prison in North Carolina. Now he's got Marijan trial.

This is death penalty eligible here, by the way, in nineteen ninety nine for Marianne. He obviously is going to say that this is insufficient evidence. I mean, good God, there's a lot of it. I mean it's a lot insufficient this month. There's so much from this trial that it was too much for my other trial. So it's a lot if you have it all here, right. Jesus, that's a lot of balls. So he's too much evidence in one, insufficient evidence in this one to prove that he killed her.

He said that there's insufficient sufficient evidence not only to prove that he wasn't the murderer is the murderer, but they can't even prove it's not an accident.

Yeah, this is bullshit. They don't know anything. Yeah. He says he points to the testimony of the pathologist who performed the autopsy of Marianne and a defense pathologist. He says that there more he argues that the findings are more consistent with accidental drowning than with manual strangulation. Obviously, you know, clearly that's what my guy says. I mean, you know, because I paid him to say I got a guy here, he said it. I mean, you know, he said it out loud.

He went to college. I saw a thing on his wall hand on the Bible. It was framed. What do you want from me? He says that the pathologist for the state vacillated in his testimony regarding the cause. He said that, you know, he didn't know shit. Meanwhile, he said it was not an accident, period. So that's not true. He also says that the pathologist testified consistently that the cause of death is manual strangulation.

That's what the state says in there. Right. He did testify to that. Eleven people tried to make shit up. The pathologist said that, no, he didn't.

He fucking there's a corner. If there's a there's a person sitting there typing every goddamn word you say, it's written all the shit out of it. It's written down. And she'll read it if you'd like. Dude's got that shit. She's good at it. Yeah, they're great.

If they can figure out figure all that shit out, I don't know what the hell it is. It's in like San Scripter. I don't know. It's weird hieroglyphs. It's a hieroglyphic thing. I don't know what the hell it is. It's you got a calligraphy. I believe your hand shit is bananas, man. I don't know how they are so weird the way they type right to hand it. Well they look like they're kneading dough. It's not like typing like a like normal, like they have this like bounce to their rhythm of weird.

Yeah.

It's not a keyboard, it's a dough kneading motion they make with their hands. So his own pathologist here, Tim's own pathologist cause testified the cause of death was drowning. But there's no reason to justify that he just said it. His argument is that obviously it's he doesn't really have any evidence other than his pathologist gone. She could have drowned. Could have been. That's all he's got. He claims the court is improperly omitting testimony from various witnesses that was cumulative and which essentially retried him for the North Carolina murder, because it's like now you're bringing all the people from down there.

Up here.

It's too much evidence, so much case. This is not fair. I would like a similar case, Your Honor.

Your Honor, could we just tone this down a little bit? Can we this is like a speed boat case to whittle it down to a pontoon boat with a nice little pontoon. If we if we could just make it me. Say you you're the judge, right, to be here and like my attorney and you know, that's it. Nobody else.

Nobody else. And we'll just tell the jury what sort this out. We'll sort it out. For example, he points to witnesses Richard and Nancy Babacar and Marianne Rockford and police officer Brenda Vance as providing cumulative testimony regarding the circumstances of his first wife's death. A review of their testimony, however, says that, you know, they they just gave consistent versions of how Elaine died in the bathtub, which was the same as this. So that's all. He also objects to the testimony of Dr.

Deborah Radish, who was who performed the autopsy on Elaine. And he she re-evaluated the autopsy results prior to the arrest in 1994 and and all that sort of thing. They said that in 1990 she was unable to assign a cause of death. But a 94 upon re-evaluation, Dr. Butz determined that the death was caused by asphyxiation with aspiration of gastric contents due to chest compression and that the manner of death was homicide. So they're basically he's saying like, oh, it was an accident in 1990.

But then as soon as the pathologist hears that they think I murdered somebody else. Now, based on based on evidence of outside, yet not medical examination, well, he's trying to say they're their pathologist as being a detective now and using out using, like information that's not just in the body to make a judgment, which.

Yeah, I mean, you kind of got to take that to you got to take environment. And that's what they do. Yeah, that's the job.

I don't know if people know this, but like if you read the David Simon homicide book, they'd have a big chapter on kind of the medical examiners and how that works. And the detectives argue with the medical examiners constantly over what's a murder and what isn't a murder. Like there's a couple of them where they were saying, one, this guy, this guy died in the bathroom and his wife was trying to open the fucking door.

So she hit him in the head a lot in his head. He was caught between the toilet in a cabinet. And when she was trying to get it open, it broke his neck.

God damn it, it broke his neck. He's already dead. Right? But it broke his neck.

And the the the paramedics and the police, when they got there, they saw it. They were like, holy shit, that's clearly what happened. But the medical examiner wasn't at the scene. The medical examiner ruled it a homicide. And they were like, no, you don't understand. You had to fucking be there to see it. His there's no way she could have put him down there, broke his neck. It's not possible. They're like he she was it was the door, but it was already it was he was dead.

Everything else was broken anyway. And they said there was like a several cases like that where there was like a drowning or something like that, where they were like, no, you weren't there. You don't know. And that or it's definitely a homicide. And the guy goes, I can't rule it. Homicide in there. Like, you don't understand, you weren't there. I'll show you a scene where this guy, a woman, got run over by a car and the guy, they wouldn't rule it.

A homicide is like I mean, it could have been an accidental run over. And they go, but you have to see the parking lot where it is. The car couldn't have turned around right there at that speed. They would have hit the wall and there's no fucking thing. So I'll do it. And they were like, sorry, can't do it. So he's like, God damn it, we can't arrest this guy unless it's a homicide.

And this is so that's one of those things where they argue a lot in a sense because they're not there.

So anyway, you do take information and put it into your judgment once they'll take the medical examiner sometimes to the scene to show them and they'll go, oh, OK. Yeah. All right, homicide then. So it's not just a body that they're looking at. So, yeah, another officer, he testifies that I'm sorry. She testifies to her observation of the scratches and bruises and swelling on his arms and hands immediately after Elaine's death. And also, this is obviously relevant because he suffered similar injuries the night Marianne died as well.

He also complained about the testimony of Christine Cheak regarding Lane's last will and testament, saying it was improperly admitted because it was irrelevant because she was not an expert as to the validity of wills in North Carolina. The objection to the evidence that was only that the testimony regarding the will was specific to a signature or some bullshit, so they said that she didn't possess sufficient knowledge and blah, blah, blah. So this is what he's arguing about.

He's really grasping at straws here. He doesn't want to go to jail.

No, that's what I mean. So because the the the Pennsylvania suggested that he may have a financial motive for killing Marianne and because they draw parallels between the deaths, the two wives, they said the will was relevant as to a possible economic motive for the first killing, which would then be possibly for this one as well.

Now, so here they find him as well, guilty of murder. Now sentencing comes up. This is a big deal. He's up for the death sentence. He does have three, three young children. He does. Who is their only parent? He's also a serial killer. He's also a serial killer. I mean, he got away a lot of factors. If you're sentencing someone to this kind of shit, the kids all speak at the sentencing.

Oh, Christ. Oh, yeah. Begging 10 year old girl begging for her dad's life to please don't kill my dad. That's literally what's going on right now.

So that's pulling out all the fucking stops when you're when you're pulling out the please don't kill my dad card. Yeah. Wow. That's that's heavy. I don't know.

How could you make your kids do that even. I don't know as a juror or the death penalty. I don't know that I could sit as a juror and listen to that and try to make it try to make an adult decision that you couldn't make what's best for society. No, that's not I. Can I can I leave?

Yeah. Can I hug that? Can I hold the kid? Can you get an alternate in here. I got so sad. I feel really she's got she's sad and I'm even sadder because I can't make this decision. I'm sorry. That's right.

And I think that's what you're are. You bring your children to testify for you at a sentencing phase of a death penalty trial. I think you're definitely. You're trying to guilt the jury into whatever so it goes to the jury and you have to really, you know, deliberate for a while and all that sort of shit. So here we go. Comes out, here is the verdict. You, sir, may fuck off death penalty.

Oh, kids be damned sorry, children.

Yeah, Daddy made a boo boo.

A couple of movies, I think. Yeah. And especially this being the second one. One trial. Fine. But they're like we already he's already guilty once. And he did this again, very similar. He's dangerous. That's what I mean. He's, he's this Ted Bundy, but he marries them first, takes longer, he works slower, works a lot slower. But the results are very similar. Slow burn get love gets there. Absolutely.

So the reaction to this is mixed from different people. As you can imagine. The prosecutor, Edward Borowski, sounds like the prosecutor of a Pittsburgh area court. He says, I think it was an appropriate sentence. He took the hearts and emotions of two families and destroyed them. He devastated two sets of parents, aunts, uncles and cousins. There's a path of emotional devastation that reads like a phone book.

True. The jurors said that they had a problem with this.

The whole thing, like the jurors were very much affected by this guilty lies. I guarantee you, half that jury is still in therapy for putting sentencing someone to death after their kids begged for. Not that those were really hard as a human to demoralizing. You want to kill this asshole bad, but you don't want to hurt these poor kids who have lost two mothers now. Right.

They've been shown their dad. Right. How how temporary parents are.

Yeah, this is this is fucked, man. So there was jurors that actually were crying as the verdict as it was being read, the decision for death. There was jurors in tears about it because they just felt fucking horrible.

Yeah, it's bad stuff. They the jurors declined to talk afterwards to they were all little ever again wrecked about it.

The defense counsel said the kids are victims. For a third time. They lost two mothers. Now they're losing their father. This is all true. But he shouldn't have killed the two mothers and, you know, put himself in this position, blame him here.

He took all three of them from them. That's what I mean. He just couldn't have he didn't want his first wife to leave him. That's what happened here. So, I mean, did what his first wife to leave him and didn't want this one to have another kid. And rejection sucks. You can't just kill people. I mean, it sucks to get rejected. I get it. Do they have three kids together and they can't kill her?

That's insane. That's fucking nuts. I mean, think about your kids for two seconds. They probably like to have their mother, whether you like her or not, worry about your kids.

That's very selfish. So also, Marianne, the first or the second wife, her mother, Loretta, says she has struggled for her desire for retribution. She's struggled with it. She said, quote, Why go back and forth one day? I hate him and I want him to pay for what he did. And then there's and then there's the children. He said Marianne loved and cared about them. And we know they are hurting too. Close friend of hers said, quote, He's a cold blooded killer.

He set all this up. Marianne was a wonderful, wonderful person. She didn't deserve to die. No one deserves to die like this. Finally, justice is done and we can get on with our lives. Indeed.

So the alane, he appeals this case here. He appeals this based on the it's based on the admission of the other drillship of all the Maryanne's. Too much evidence is what he said. Basically, it's a mountain. Seventeen witnesses contends the volume of evidence introduced through the testimony deprived him of a fair trial. I've never seen the volume of evidence. That's wild.

Yeah, not it's a legal evidence, not it's it shouldn't be admitted or whatever.

It's too much. I mean, if you're just going to tell him everything I ever did, obviously they're going to. Yeah, they're going to think I did it. O.J. should have tried that. Yeah.

Your Honor, that's too much evidence. No, it's it wasn't improperly handled. There's just too much of it that we have limits on evidence.

Is there like so like when you do a fundraiser and you got a thermometer and at the top it starts overflowing when you got to that's where we're at. I think. I think we're at the red top. Look who has blood in their car.

Come on. We don't need DNA. Let's just go with that. It's enough. I think we've fundraised the shit out of them.

I think we did it. So, yeah, they said evidence has been received tending to show that the second wife, Marianne, died under similar circumstances. This evidence was received solely for the purpose of showing that he had the intent, obviously. So it's fine. And also, he contends that the also they said that the instruction wasn't clear enough. The jury instruction, which I read the jury instruction, it was pretty fucking clear. I'm sorry. It was you know, this can be used for this purpose only and not that purpose.

I thought it was very clear. He also says the trial court aired by permitting the state to introduce the alleged hearsay of other people of his daughter. The you know, my this and that shit as excited utterances. And he objected to the introduction of statements made by within hours of the death made by his daughter, Sandy, who was nine years old, I'm sorry, not five at the time to a neighbor talking about my mommy screaming and I could all that shit.

So that's a pretty ridiculous thing to try to object to here. So they say, go fuck yourself, you life in prison, asshole. But the big one is the death penalty appeal. Obviously this is nineteen ninety nine and this goes all the way to the state Supreme Court in Pennsylvania. And the he says that one of the complaints is the time period. He says that the murder, the the charges were filed November 14th, 1994, and the trial wasn't until April 5th.

Nineteen ninety nine which is sixteen hundred three days later. Now, if he didn't kill someone in another state, that's kind of on you, asshole. We had to do a whole other trial.

He says from that time period, he concedes that it's appropriate to exclude nine hundred and sixty six days from October 5th. Ninety five to May 27th. Ninety nine during with which the pre-trial appear appeal of the trial court's ruling on a motion was going on. So he's like, OK, that's fine. But he says exclude all these days, he said he takes issue with the trial court's exclusion of two other blocks of time one hundred and forty seven days occasioned by a request for a postponement on the defendant's part.

He's saying you took too long and then they're breaking down the days and they're like you requested this days and these days. Exclude that, exclude that. Exclude that it really hasn't been that fucking long, basically.

So, yeah, they said the appellate he's arguing that the trial court erred in excluding in excluding this period of something from its rule. Eleven hundred calculation that the Commonwealth's lack of due diligence and providing him with discovery which occasioned his postponement request by holy shit, this is the legal the level of legal trying has been grasping at straws.

Really.

You got this is like I mean, there's no statute of limitations on murder, man. No, there really is. Can wait until fucking up the minute before you die. Yup. Well, he's saying they didn't, you know, give him a speedy trial. Basically they held him there forever. Is. Yeah, they just held him there but they said it leaves. Wow. This is wild. Four hundred and twenty. Well my God, subtracting this, this, this is a line from this subtracting this one hundred and forty seven day excludable period from the rule.

One hundred calculation leaves four hundred twenty seven days. Imagine having to argue about this shit in an open court turning to the second disputed time period. They go through all of these time periods of exactly what he did and why and how and all this type of shit. So yeah, they said. In addition to violating an existing court order, the trial prosecutors unauthorized conduct ultimately created the by the basis for the Commonwealth's Commonwealth to newly certify him as death eligible.

Here's his main complaint. OK, Pennsylvania, rather than trying him right away, they let him go down to North Carolina to be tried first. North Carolina had to put in a request for extradition because he was also being held for murder in Pennsylvania. They allowed the request.

Now, what this did was give him basically show his intent and his pattern to do this and made him death penalty eligible in Pennsylvania. Oh, so they're saying he's saying his argument is with all the times is you only let me go down there to get tried first. So then I could be death penalty, penalty eligible here. That's hard to say. Then I can be death penalty eligible here. So you set me up to get the death penalty.

Here's what he's saying. All right. You sent me down there to get tried first. If you would have tried me up here first, I wouldn't have got the death penalty because the reason I got it is because of the first murder.

OK, that's what he's saying. OK, so you fucked me this whole basic deal, you fucked you.

So and the court says you're right now. Really, you're right. We shouldn't have let the extradition go on to take him down there. We had you first. We arrested you first. We should have tried you first or at least not used that as a predicate for this.

So sentence commuted to life. Wow. Life in prison there.

So is it fucking after the other? Well, that's it.

He's down in North Carolina serving life down there. So this. Yeah, that's how. He does his thing now, the kids lives quickly here, the kids lives, they covered this case in a 2003 episode of Forensic Files, apparently, which I haven't seen, obviously, about the deaths of both of these women. And the kids were saying at that point they still loved their father and they still believe both of their moms died accidentally.

Oh, my. In 2003, I hope in 17 years they've changed their mind.

Yeah, they were still young. I mean, the one girl was I mean, nine. And what is that, nine and eight. She's in her teens. I mean, they're like 20. Their children still they said, yeah, they man, he managed to they said the kids stayed together first. They live with their aunt and then their grandparents, but their grandparents couldn't care for them permanently. So they landed in a foster home. Now, which was actually a good home for them, though, but it was overcrowded.

It's location made it hard for them to continue school in the district they were already in. So in 1996, they were the kids were searching for a new foster home where they could all stay together. And the AP put out an article about them in 96 and 100 families applied in Korea to adopt them, which is pretty fucking awesome. That's right. That's wild. County authorities narrowed it down to 20 because, you know, if one hundred applied, 50 of them were pedophiles, 20 of them are like weirdos that want to write a book about them or some creepy shit, take them on talk shows.

And many of them like Circus Freak, many of them like to cram houses full and accept all the checks. Yeah.

And then there's 20 who are like those poor kids. Let me help them. So that's who they were looking at. And I hope that the kids got to pick, wouldn't that? Oh, God, I wanted that so bad as a kid to be able to leave the picking of the house that that's the best. Would that be amazing? You guys are great, but your house is a piece of shit fantasy. Yeah. The fantasy is that.

Yeah, the fantasy of like my my real parents did this and having my own room.

Yeah. Oh the reality room. So yeah. That's what they narrowed it down to. Twenty the kids are ages 12 to 15. They decided on a couple whose own children had grown up and moved out of the house. So this is like the best. They've already raised kids. They're successful. So like maybe these kids won't be fuck ups. They move them in. They said, though, they hadn't forgotten about their original dad and that another account said, quote, They write him and they're allowed one phone call a year.

They've mailed him photos and sent him tins of cookies for Christmas. So that's what he gets. They participated in school sports in school. A couple of them went to college. They went on to, you know, we're doing well. The oldest child, Randy, he grew up to work with at risk young men at George Junior Republic. I don't know what that is. And later joined a Philadelphia area area crowd management company as an intern and rose to branch manager.

Great for him, Sandy, the one who Sandy and Randy. Sandy and Randy. Sandy, who heard the horrible things. She graduated from North Carolina state and is an employment recruiter and all that sort of thing do and shit like that.

So good for her. And Candy, what does she do? And and the youngest, Todd, he trained with the Civil Air Patrol when he was 16 and joined the US Air Force and became an MP. Great Air Force in twenty six. He said, oh, he was one of the people who came to the aid of a child at the scene of a shooting. And as a matter of fact, it's a nice guy. After his military service, he's worked in online marketing for several, several years, and now he has his own company in Pittsburgh.

So credible. Good for him, right? Not bad. I'm happy to hear the kids didn't have meltdowns. They all. Yeah, that really says something about their support system is that kind of went really bad for sure.

Those kids are resilient, but when it comes to childhood trauma and shit like that, that's wrong. Forget it. Yeah, that tends on who it is.

If that happens at that age, you can get real better, real fast. But so many people are willing to help. And they they got they're just very lucky that that happened like that. That could have went really bad. Tim, on the other hand, he he is in a medium security prison at the Nash Correctional Institute. His prison record showed that he has good behavior, no infractions or escape attempts. Yeah, that's good, because no lives in and there's no guys escape from a life to kill.

And now he December 3rd, twenty eighteen. OK, he is up for parole in North Carolina. Yeah. The commission is gathering information as they weigh the whole thing. If they do decide, he could be released as early as next month, December 12th, December 13th. Twenty eighteen officials at parole officials grant parole to Tim in North Carolina. He obviously. You know, I was happy with that, but now he's just in time to be transported right up to Pennsylvania to serve his life sentence up there.

How about so he can go fuck himself, are still in prison?

Mary Ellen, both Marianne and Elaine are both buried in the same place. They're at the Saint Stan Standardless and St. Anthony Cemetery in Allegheny County and Etana, Pennsylvania. So same area Tombstone up there, I guess. So they wrote a book.

There's a couple of books about this one that looked like the most inflammatory and one I wouldn't look at for this sort of shit is called Please don't kill my mommy.

Jesus, God, please don't kill Mommy. Not my mommy, mommy, mommy, please don't kill Mommy by Fannie Weinstein. I wouldn't fucking read that cry if you Fanny paid me a million dollars down. That is the most inflammatory shit I've ever.

Please don't kill Mommy and look at the way it's written to like mommy's a little bigger.

Oh, good.

Are the pictures the true story of a man who killed his wife, got away with it, then killed again? Yeah, that's what it says on the nine rubbin to this. Oh, she you know, she's flicking away now and chill out, Fanny. That's available if you really, really need to see that.

And there is Tim nowadays, by the way, with Tim looking back, you look like shit.

Sorry, like shit. You look like a guy that makes teeth.

He looks like he totally makes teeth. One hundred fucking for holy shit. Now for some reason there's an address to write to him. What. So I have it here in case you want to say you're an asshole or whatever you want to do here, send him a bottle print. There he is. And ask him about his butthole making things that smart communications slash p a d o.

See those are all capital letters DLC Tim Busse Kowalsky B OCZ KUOW České I letters e a three seven nine seven letters s as in Sam C is in fucking.

I never going to be really dirty there. And then I see green P.O. Box three three oh two eight St. Petersburg, Florida. For some reason a lot three three seven three three. I don't know if they use that. It's like a mail clearinghouse goes through it. PO boxes are cheap in Florida. I don't know what it is and a lot of people on the lam down there hiding from the world and you know, they do that.

So, yeah, if you want to write to that asshole for signs and you can go ahead and do that, otherwise we are just thrilled that those kids are not fucked up beyond. Yeah. You know, I'm sure they have problems. I'm sure they went to therapy and they're managing beyond they're thriving in life and they're doing well in world. We couldn't be more happy for them because that is absolutely awful. Against all odds. Against all odds. You figure one mother's enough.

Yeah. Your dad kills one mom. Yeah, that's one thing. But then you get to think about those poor kids. You get a year when your mom dies. You think life is over. Man, that would be horrible. And then on top of that, your dad, he found a carbon copy married. Yes, that's right. I mean, another one, another woman who's just like her really sweet, adopted. This isn't like fuck your kids.

I want my own kids is like I literally adopt these kids as her own. And everyone said she treated those kids like they were her kids never had a never any thought of, you know, step this or that. It was mom and like, it's crazy.

Why would you do that to your fucking kids? This guy's an asshole, truly. Like, it's one thing to do that to your wife. But dude, to be able to to be able to sit there and go, I took their one mom away and that hurt them bad.

And they seem real happy now. But I'm going to fuck that up, too. Yeah. Like what kind of a sociopathic narcissist lunatic do you have to be a serial killer. Yeah. Yeah, he could have done that how many times. And then he put on the front of them going to church to making dentures and I'm such a nice guy. The drop of a hat. He'll kill you. Like what the fuck man.

This is a this is a serial killer who like was raised better than a serial killer. So his path was like toward legitimate things.

Yeah. But he still had to, like, do it. Still going to be things that happened. Yeah.

He's almost like BTK. If he got away with this, who knows if he would have started doing other weird shit and branching out. Yeah, but it's strange because he kills for. Like necessity, not necessity, but for like convenience, convenience and life. Yeah, it doesn't seem the reset button doesn't seem to be an impulse, right. But it seems to be a solution like his his standard like, well, I guess I'll kill her and move on.

That's his turn it off and turn it back on again. Exactly. That. Yeah. That's his power reset. Yeah. Wait 15 seconds. It's a very strange thing that I don't know, I don't know how to do it the same way because it's like.

Well that worked the first time. Right. He's a bright guy. Why wouldn't you think like I better come up with a I got to come up with another pretty elaborate accident.

I am kind of impressed, though, that that he had a dismount of like getting rid of a body is hard, man.

Yes. That's didn't even try that. I'm not going to bother. They want somebody else doing CPR on her here. Obviously, she's right. Here is an accident. Yeah. At least she didn't do like I don't know, she disappeared. Right.

And then she's found in the woods skeletonized a year later, you know, an oil tank, which we've had before. So there you go. That is Ross Township, Pennsylvania. Yeah. Suburbs of Pittsburgh.

And that's just a real asshole to say. It's just a huge asshole. Hope you enjoyed that show about that giant asshole. If you did, there is a way you can tell us and as a matter of fact, tell the rest of the world to you can get on Apple podcast, that purple icon. Give us five stars. We don't know why it helps, but it helps drive us up the charts. And that's really important. That chart position, if you look, it's not important, obviously, to normal people.

But if you're in the business, that's how they look at things where you are in the charts. So that's how you can help the show. And that cost you absolutely nothing, totally free and takes twenty seconds. So please help out by doing that if you haven't yet. Also, if you want to help out the show a little bit more, well first of all, you can get a hold of us. We are at small town murder on Instagram at murder small on Twitter, at small town pod on Facebook.

You can get a hold of us there. Do all of that go to shut up and give me murder dotcom right now, you should go all the time because we have new merch up all the time and it's fun stuff. So check all of that out. Get on, shut up and give me murder. Most of all, though, get your tickets for the virtual live show, January twenty nine.

Yes.

And for three days afterwards, you won't know it's and still feel alive. Yeah. The three days afterwards. The seventy two hours after that you can buy it as well.

It equates to afternoon on Saturday in Australia. That's what I heard. Yes, it's Friday night and it's like one o'clock in the afternoon. Somebody like is going to be great. So party it up and do that. Hang out with us. It's going to be a real show. Real episode, not a problem. You did the prisoner dating game, which was so fun. But this is like a real episode of the show. We're going to sit down.

We have all the visuals. We're going to use a big screen behind us. We're not going to use the pop up digital one last time because that was cool. But this is going to be bigger, so you can really see everything better. And I want them to be able to see you because you react. I'm a lot of the jokes are visual and I'll put a joke up and then Jimmy sees the joke and then he reacts the same time as the crowd put it.

If I'm showing it to you on my laptop, it doesn't have the same impact as if you look behind on the screen. The audience looks with you on the screen is a little smaller and it's a big screen. So we're going to have so much fun doing that. We cannot wait real show. God damn it. It's almost like road to it.

We're we're pretending that is shut up and give me murder dotcom right now for that. And also get your merchandise. Patron is cooking hard this week on Patreon four for this show, Small Town Murder. We are going to have a wild murder case from Michigan where you will be happy with the outcome. Actually, you're going to root for the murderer for once. And sounds strange, but it'll make a shitload of sense when you hear it. And it's so much fun and it's not even like there's no child molesting or anything.

People are going to jail. It's going to be a molester. I don't want to hear it. Nope, nope. None of that is even better than that.

No, no diddling occurs, but you'll still just be like, yeah, it's a lot of fun.

Check that out. And on crime and sports, we are going to do the death of Steve McNair, who was a very respected high tier all pro quarterback in the NFL who was murdered. So by by an acquaintance will say so I check those out this week. You can get all of that, Patrick, on dotcom slash crime and sports. And anybody over the five dollar level gets access to those shows and all the whole back catalogue of patriots and everything like that.

It's a lot of fun. And also, you're going to get a shout out at the end of the show because you're a goddamn producer now. You're a special extra special part of the show that we can't honestly can't do the show with our very special reason. You're all very special. So, no, it's true, though. We can't do the show without you guys. So thank you for doing that. You're going to be a producer. Jimmy will mispronounce your name at the end of the show.

That is Patrick on dotcom slash crime and sports to get all your bonus episodes and your terrible producer credit mispronounce. Thankfully, thankfully. And on top of that, if you want to just be a producer, get your name mispronounced, which is fun. And of course, just have. Great karma, because you know that you're helping people out that work hard for you, you can do that as well by dropping something over people using our email address, crime and sports at Gmail dot com.

Right.

That said, I got to tell you, Jimmy, the only thing that would make me feel better after something like that is I need to hear the names of the people who would never, ever, ever try to stage a death and say we accidentally drowned in a hot tub. Please, Jimmy, hit me with those people right now. This week's executive producers are Carol.

Byron, welcome back. Carol, thanks. Jordan Bennett. Happy birthday, Jordan. Shauna Rogers. Yes, it's a big deal and is we love Jordan and Simon. Simon messaged me to remind me and I already knew, but he reminded me. Happy birthday, Jordan. Also Shanna Rogers, Rebecca Paris, Dominic, Dominic Villanueva, Sibylle Sierra, Clay Thorson.

Again, again, great guy. You're on a crossover. Thank you so much, everybody.

Matt Hankel, Michael Rosen, Robert Sahba, Emily Roberts, Camerini Yokum, Jacob Williams and Christa Zachman. Thank you guys so much. Thank you. Really are very you are the super stars. Thank you so much, Dominic. Dominic wanted us to mention that it's his father's twentieth anniversary of being sober. That's Vot. Oh, he. I have his name. Hold on. I'm better than this. I've got a name. God damn it. It's somewhere.

It's Carlos Villanueva. That's how it is. Congratulations. I say on the path you're doing great for your son's very impressed and proud of you. It's awesome. Really. Honestly.

Do other producers this week are Brendan Abels, Andrew McCoy, Amanda Knight, Sharknado Obree, Kat Zablocki. Really? James Marter. Susanna. Is that Jablonsky? That's what it is. It's not a WCR. Susanna Platt, Tracy Renninger, Jessie Pitts, Simon. She shed Schyman. You know that shit.

It's Sort Meadows, Mary Maria Coop, Maria CEPS loosely Jessica Johnson, Athena Bullock, Cindy Escamilla, Jessica Mazari, Eric Wagener, Morgan Schmidt and Walter Long Savannah Storms. Lenny Blunk. Lanny Blunk. Alexandra Weber.

Aldo Félicie. Felicia Taylor. Felicia Yes. Catherine Calado Cat. Caitlin Smith. Rebecca Daken. I think Danetta Pazzo Agent Jeanine Izzadeen and that'll Piazza Zannini Hidell Bar.

Thomas Colletta DeMello. Janice Hill, Amy, Amy Folsom, Crystal Leanne Crestline Reynolds, Rivasi Ryan Dempsey, Amanda Platner, Joanne A'Hearn, Robin, Rob Wilson and his lady love Tanya Guzzo both. I think that's who she is. Thank you, Lady Luck. And there may be somebody else. Richard Johnson. You've got to be kidding me.

Ashley Veoh, Chelsea Broncho Bronco, Matty Cakes, Fine Confections just cabala Bellagio, Steve Snell, Rachel Watt at Hakobyan, Econo Escobedo and her and her boyfriend Trey. And it's his birthday. Happy birthday. Try a lot of I can say your name, Trey. That's an easy one. Liz Vasquez, Dave Clifford Marte's. David Linn. Greg Noris, Mo Isaw. Oh I'll Safieh. Troy Graham. Frank the Cat. AJ McCoy, George Torez.

Alexander Duke. Alexandra Duke. Skip Bayless.

Probably not Shawna Corbitt be is giving us money to reprimand Duche Ambacang.

Dwight Schrute probably not. Bob Bennett. Josh Davis. Chad McGregor. Caitlin Kathleen. Kathleen King. Lindsay Peters. Curtis Haymon. Hamman David. Nope. That's Dave Brown Brown Jesus quarterback for the Giants. Right. Pyper Jones. Don DeBartolo. Hey, why is it so hard?

Charles Barkley, insomnia hanah Hendriksen, Kolten P Oh Payton, Beth Fairrington and K M Cerovic Backlog Frogh. Michelle Lopez. Sarah Bekker. Josh Eagles'. Ryan would no last name. Troy Serch. Jodie Arun's er Harry Hearns. Jodi Arias. Jodi Jodi Arun's Richard with no last name. Ryan would no last name. Brad Bradford. Sabrina Doherty, Stephanie Perry, Elizabeth Salvador, Josh Jason McFayden, Angie Dorsey, Michael Brehme. Jessica Cook or Card Key.

I don't know if that's a deal or no. Tracy Skowronski. Michael Atkiss. Sarah Nope. Sierra Briese. Jennifer Glorioso. John Robinson. Nathan P. Matthew Fainter. Lil Drumgold Alma Emma Feeling Delilah. Delilah Brown. Lexie Allen. Jackie Goetze. Chazz Fasal Basil Kelsey with no last name. Juliana Juliana Gomez. Cassie Pritchard. Steven Brittany. Webber, Webber, Lisa with no last name, Barbara Kazmi, I think Nicollet, Paul Yasmine's after Subfolder Lot so far I don't know Lonnie Cauli Makeup.

Brian Paul and Barnes' Crystal would no last name. Jeffrey Herrman. Moving on. Jesus, this is brutal. I kill myself every week. For what? For what do I do this. You guys love this. You love this. They want to hear their name Jasmine on something and they deserve recognition. Damn you love my punishment. Maggie Gallant Eliza with no last name. Jeanine DeLucca, Chelsea Robak. Brittany Lafond, Nadia Nidia. S No last name will touch it.

Yeah, that's perfect. I hope that's a real Tony Little's Kathy Denki Bendavid. Send Justin Sherwood, Ashlynn Rousso, Brent Branon, Brandon Watson, Eric Westfall, Tanya Nash, Christopher Hock's, Peggy Downing, Dave Brown again Ernest Kanta. Junior efforts. Two dudes are just one. I don't think you know everybody named Dave Brown, Kohnen Baldwin, Jennifer Wethers, Daniel Donnally, John Howard, Baako Varuna. Oh, Jeff Davidson, Arianna Anderson, Lauren Vargus.

Al Garran, Nick Owens. Jessica with no last name. Camille Carr Dot Dot Oates, Dot. Stephanie Flatt, Ryan Pringle, Lisa with no last name. KVI man, just Jestina Ditton and Barnes'. Zach Shoemaker. John Justice Sarah Major Eric Johnson and Peter Peter. Nope, that's Paul Peterson, Casey Smith, Cara Castle, Tom and Amanda McCracken. Paul Trottier, Trottier Britton Wright, Rachel Liebman Karia, Carla Al Alex Alex Bruce Dinaw Joe Lynn Graziano Graziani Zeon.

It's a great it's Shannon Sheets, Joseph Humphris, Alanah. Oh boy.

Erevia Erevia or River are super for Suzanne Martinez. Bryson would no last name Morgan wellin Brink. Robin O'Brien, Robert O'Brien, Deborah Izell. Walter Cannon. Raymond Torres. Deborah Yorio. Want Emily Oliver Chandler. Daniel Daniel Yeah. Kevin Campbell. Rachel Van Sumerians, Andrea Andrea Peterson Patterson, Aaron Stanley, Ryan Clark and Derek Miller. Evan Bungeni would no last name. Danny Mullan's. Kayla Sullivan. Lauren Smith. Joe Freeman. Isabelle. Oh boy what an I've I've, I've ruined your last name for I don't know what Isabelle Dao doh doh say.

Do say douche. I don't know. I don't know what I wrote. You couldn't pronounce it. Kathy would know. Last name. Sarah McGee. Save Saver. Walt Abby Moriarity Korey's Cause it's Tim Burlison. Alexis Carballo. Diana Evans. Ashley Claim. Timothy Burlison. I said that. Oh it's Tim and Tim. Timothy, two different same name, two different email addresses. So I'm not sure if it's name after Lindsey would be Nakib. Yeah.

For real. Thank you both. Or twenty one of you.

Nick, we're Amanda Sir. Sieminski, Jeff Suarez Gorsky, Nicole to Carcas to CACs and Nancy Stender. Amanda Amien Triniti would no last name. I hope it's Dennis Rodman's daughter, Jamie Moon. To Emily Martin. Jamie Housemen Thomas no last name. Helen Young Geoffrey Stokes. Nick with no last name. Patricia Patricia Chapell Chappell. Brandi Grissom. Oh boy. Giving you what? Yevgeni Yevgeni Levitch. Yevgeny maybe. Yeah. You've given, you've got you've given me Clint around Rousso with no last name before me.

Cynthia Parker, Josh Mongkut, Mansky Mansky, Pasqualino, Ilari. I think probably not Teresa Piran, Kiren man Becky Mueller. People with bad names that to pronounce love this this is their favorite. Jamie Hawkins. Ron Atkins. Now that I like Natalie Barath Kenny Freda's Joseph, Shahd Tracy Bryant, Gary Long, Samantha with no last name. Troy Thomas, Sandy Atkins, Gavin Hutchison, Blake Kavali Coval, Brice Smith, Meghan Bidle. I think Lisa Broda, you're here we go.

Andrew Sullivan, Lucchese Katie Weidemann, Amber Mikveh Chandler Martin, Ben Johnston, Carlos Villanueva. That's the way Stephen Colbert Coalescent Carlos'n Veronica Salinities Salina's Garik Rock Dayman Mott's Briana Sanders, Kimber's Street Kara Rachel Griffin, Kevin Roen, Nicole Burke, Josie Davis, Michael Walsh, Chandra Banten. Which, by the way, I got questions for you. For her. OK, Lauren Steinem.

Jenny, I think it's a. Lauren, I'm so sorry, I have bad penmanship. Jenny Bukowski, Pamela Oliver, I hope it's Pam. Yeah, great. Thanks. Pam Trace Childs, Tiffany Delattre, Olivia Lewis. Andrew would no last name. Jessica Perry, Ash Omar Ghadiya, Shavon, H.M. Forman, Georgiana Roy Compton. Luke Blank. I think Katie Howard Heyward Mullins. Nicholas Nolan. Jason Jason Spencer Derek Darryl next. Jake Jacob. No way can Heather Akers, Loretta Hornik.

We're so close I swear to God. Crystal Robinson, Reagan Taylor, Tim Trejo, Lucena, Lucinda Powell, Johnny Cho, Charlie Watkins, Shannon Ivon and Kathleen Sawalha, Jessica Aguayo, Rafael Dumbledore. I think Justin totino. Bob Menzel. Lindsay would no last name. George Farmer. Ethan Aman's. Iman's Emons. Don Nuclear. One of those campi right.

New Knuckler Andrea Martinez and Otto Nihil Flynn Amber would no last name. Anita Martinez. Jeremy Foster. Michelle Martino. Oscar Park. Stacy Lane. Joyce Winstead. Thomas Sizzlers sees LA. Nope. Brandon Nope. That's Sisler. Brad Logan Mack. Ashley Thompson. Amber Gode, Dylan Donnis, Kaitlyn Lester Kami Parks. Welcome back. Hammie Monica Nichols. Amy Amy Stanton. Keith Humphrey. Skye Young. Joshua Tree. Brendan Raymie. Brenda Raymi. Christian McPeake.

Luke Tway. Joshua Tilla said that Jannika will no last name Ashley. MC Kominsky. MC Kominski. Kristy Lee. Darryl Kelly. Mike Moore. Rachel Hanigan. Dylan Lehew Patrick. Nope. That's Ricky What. Ricky Harmon. Matthew Ankle. Allison Walker. Chelsea Hansen. Gaby Reed. Cecilia Soderling. Alabama Sassafras. Noel Browning. Drew Shocklee. Thanks, Drew. Cody Dyken Dickin. Can't be right.

Paul Paul White Sibylle with no last name. Janice LaBeau. Olivia with no last name. Miranda Beckert. Zachary Holst's Holsey Matt Mills'. Johnny Genachowski. Briana Patrice Colin. Colin Bradley. Anthony Rheem. Allison would no last name. Katie Range Tje seven. Chris Leonard. Carlton Merritt. Chris. Nope. That's Charles Samuelsen. Jace Coon might be jsi might be James Carlton Merritt, Eric Balf, Jodie Murray Miller. Don Norton Reyes. Sophia Halkias. Fay would no last name Jeff also Olsen Goddamnit Chase Miller Chase.

Len Miller. Hey Oliver. That's Oliver not Miller and all of that. That's wrong. Catherine Aaskov. That can't be right. Ask half office five is it. And ask you to say anything with arsenate and a cough and a cough that's almost like a cough. And so you're off as a fake. Yes, that's definite. I thought ask was my Catherine. That's a tough name. Amanda Sartain, Little Egg, Josh Ortiz, Fisher, Phil Hall, Doug Mather, Rich Mills.

Tiffany Brink Moler Kalb's Katherine Katherine Webster Brasier Saylor's Clay Dedrick Chelsea. Nope, that's Kelsey Swanson. Faith Perry. Frankie Mackenzie Derek. Which switchin Monica Zirkel. Brittany Vado. I think Mike Thom's. What is this. Ann Winton. Meyer George. Nope, that's Richard groats shorts. Those aren't close. No M Camshaft Shannon Pitney Robert Beams by page six Jimmy starts to really get the fucking wheels fall off the truck here.

Christian Yates' one warez Shannon Pitney I said that Richard Bems Robert Bems Austin Osment Charlie Smile A Smile. Matt Roten Christie zero one Cheeto Suarez. Theresa Litner Last Bet.

Rebecca Scovel. Jennifer Pritchard.

Derek would no last name a purple roadblocks. Forty seven ninety eight. Chase Prater, Sarah Stokes, Keysha and Mike McDonald, AJ Razack, Ash Smith, Tenez and Aengus Avonwood. No last name. Lisa Morrison. Kimberly Laura. Kimberly with Nola's him and Laura with no last name and all of our patrons. You guys are terrific. Thank you so much.

Thank you so much everybody, honestly, for everything you've done for us all of last year. You guys kept us afloat, you kept us going and you continue to do that. And we really hope you guys sign up for the virtual live show because we're going to try to throw down really hard and give you guys something. I'm excited about it. Something exciting. Yeah, we're excited because even though you're not going to be there, it's going to feel like you're there because it's the closest thing we can.

We really do love doing the live shows so we can come out and interact with everybody in the team. Yeah, we want to see we want we don't know. I mean. We see Twitter and stuff, but as far as we know, you could all be robots. You have no idea until we get to a theater and there's a thousand people and we go, holy shit, those people are real. It's amazing. So thank you for everything like that.

What if they wanted to say hi to you or thank you. How could they find me on the Internet at Westermann sucks WASC and sucks on Twitter and Instagram. And thank you guys truly so much. It's also Clay Clay Thorson's wife, Melissa. It's our birthday. Happy birthday, Melissa.

Thank you guys so much. Happy birthday. Thanks for everything. Thanks for being around. We can't do this stuff without you guys. Where can they find you? Matt, Jimmy is funny.

Or just you can figure out how to find people on the Internet. Copy and paste my name and you'll make it work. Yeah. So if that said, thank you again, everybody, for joining us this week. And we're going to keep coming back week after week. We have such a wild slate of shows for you where we're pressing hard. We're not going to take our foot off the gas. We promise that. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure.

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