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All you want to do is sit in a cafe and quietly enjoy this podcast when you can, I have a tall Hemi Demi semi half caf McClarty. Oh, and can you served in a macchiato class?


Oh, give me strength.


Cut the nonsense and keep it real.


With Trebor, pick up a refreshing boost of Creber extra strongman's for a cherry trees of tree Borshoff men's winter colds and flu can really drain your energy but don't let them get in the way of your day at the first sign of a cold or flu.


Reach for battle in day and night. The only cold and flu remedy to offer 24 hour relief with tablets for day and night. Trust Vanderlyn to take care of your cold and flu symptoms. Ask your pharmacist for advice. Badland Day and Night. Always read the label. See Balin Dollying. This week on a special Express bonus episode, we look at a sleepy farm town that gets a rude awakening when a teenage girl disappears while looking for a lost cow with a strange man.


Welcome to Small Town Murder Express.


Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder.


Hey, an express edition. Yeah, my name is James Patrick. I'm here with my co-host, Jimmy Listman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us. Yes, this is a special holiday, just an end of the year. Thank you. Give you more. Just give you a little more. An extra something. So we found something extra crazy and there's going to be a small town murder piece theater and here and everything else, it's going to be so much fun.


We have a lot, of course, and a terrible murder, obviously, as well. Thank you. Please write and review an Apple podcast that helps a lot Patreon. And also there's bonus episodes this weekend as well. Christmas murders from times past. We're going to do a lot of fun because they're all old timey. First of all, it's a murder. And we have the, of course, quarterly personal ads. Episode four, Crime and Sports is bonus.


You'll want to check that out, get all of that at Patriot Dotcom slash crime and sports. And you'll also be a producer. And if you want to just be a producer, get your name mispronounced patcher. Our PayPal is a way to do that and use our email address Krib and sports at Gmail dot com. Quick disclaimer, because we're going to get right into it. This is a comedy show is where comedians murders are real, everything is real.


But, you know, we're trying you got to be good about it. Here we go out of our way not to make fun of the victims or the victims families because we're assholes. We're not scumbags to go see. But that's how it works. So if you think that sounds good to you, I think that's a good time. You're willing to, you know, expand your mind a little bit. Awesome. It's great. If not, then I don't know what to tell you.


I don't know. Give it a shot. I don't think it's what you think it is. But for everybody who's ready for some craziness, I think it's time to sit back and shout out up and give me Murda. Let's do this, Jimmy. All right. We are going to New Jersey, to Florida of the north. Nobody says that now. It is the Florida of the north, as we've called it before. And we're actually going to have a full, proper New Jersey episode here coming up in the next couple of weeks.


That's one of the wildest things of what it turns into. It's a missing cheerleader that turns into quite the tale, man. It's crazy. But this is a kind of a quicker one that we it's a wild story, though, that we need to talk about. Quick. We're going to buzz through the town stuff, not really going to town. Is it too much about the town here? Well, it's it is East Amwell, New Jersey is the town here.


So there is a north and south there.


There's a well, East Amwell Township, New Jersey, actually, and there's a Amwell Township. It's all of those now. I think it's Amwell who knows, they might say it a well. But if they do, I believe that's just wrong because it's a m well. So that's Amwell as far as I'm concerned. This is in Western and central New Jersey.


I'd blame Imlay. Yeah, I blame Imlay e Amway Township. New Jersey is where it all comes from. Yeah. Well, your shitty make up, everything's coming from here in knockoffs. So this is western central New Jersey. So it's in the middle of nowhere. Sure. This isn't like, you know, where The Sopranos live or anything for people. Sure. Aren't from the East Coast. This isn't the shore. This is the muck. This is the there's farms.


This is the farmland out here. Yeah. This is it's about an hour to Philly and about an hour and ten minutes to New York City. But it's the farm. Yeah. So that's kind of cool that you can live in a farm and live an hour from each of those cities. Right. It's kind of nifty. So population three thousand nine hundred thirty three people, little pretty small town. It's very small. And this particular case we're going to talk about happened in the 70s.


It was even smaller back then. Wow. So, yeah, it's it's it's interesting. I have a couple reviews just to set the tone a little bit because we're not going to get too deep into the town and the reviews are all positive.


All I could find is positive reviews. I love it. They love it here. Five stars. This one I would recommend living here to anyone, especially those who would like to raise a family. If I could do this all over again, I would still choose to live here in the future. I would hope to see continued preservation of farmland and wide open spaces. The greenery is one of the best features about this place.


I feel like that person has never been west of the Mississippi. I feel like they've never been out of this town. Yeah, but that's that's another issue. But they do like it. Four stars on this one. They can't you know, nothing's perfect here. This is the most negative review I could find. Really? Yeah, pretty much. No one hears much about crime in this area. There are many disturbances at all. Although the town does not have its own police station, the towns nearby are very quick to help hold your tongue.


Yeah, that's how I hear on a show all about all of that.


That's how small this town is, is they don't have their own police force. Yeah, that's a tiny town. That's like Somerby on the. Dating game time about there's no single people in the world, none. Oh, hang out, you're about to hear of three. There's going to be some pretty soon. Unfortunately for you, median age here is 50. It's an older town, too. It's kind of older people. Younger people leave places like this to go to Philly or New York City and do whatever they're doing and have fun.


Yeah, exactly. And leave the farm behind. Race of this town. Eighty four, almost eighty eight percent white. So pretty pretty white to be that close to both of those cities. Two percent black, one point four percent Asians, eight point four percent Hispanic. Not much. Not much in terms of diversity there. It's pretty. It's a white farm town. I mean, and it was even whiter in nineteen seventy three when this whole thing went down.


The unemployment rate is low here. Household income is high. It's almost twice the national average. Nationally, it's fifty seven thousand six fifty two. Here it is. One hundred and seven thousand three fifty six. So that's why you like it. It's yeah. People have a lot of land.


It's kind of money to be made. There's money. Yeah, there's a lot of farms and shit cost of living is also high. One hundred is regular pa here it is one thirty two point eight.


Not bad compared to the money you're making. That's the thing. It's not that terrible, but the housing is the high one at one seventy. That's the problem. The median home cost here three hundred ninety two thousand eight hundred dollars, which is high. And a lot of that is because most of these houses are on land. That's the problem is beautiful. Yeah, they're on land. So you're going to it's going to be harder to you know, not a lot of it is like a house sitting on a tiny plot.


Yeah. You got to buy ten acres with it, which is expensive because it's part of land. So. But that's great. That's how that works. Yeah. It's, it's not bad, but it's it is what it is. And if we've convinced you, you know what, damn it. Put it all down. You're going to you're going to start your own version of Funny Farm. We have for you the East. Anyway, East Amwell Township, New Jersey, I can't say a real estate report.


Your average two bedroom rental here is way too expensive.


Two thousand ninety dollars. Oh, it's just breathtaking for a rental.


That's a lot. And I have some pictures for you of these houses and money away. First one two bedroom. One bath. Yeah. Twelve hundred square foot. It looks awesome. I mean, the vinyl siding is interstate's decent.


Got a deck above your garage. I don't know if it's above the basement door. Oh, that's not parking. No, no, that's not parking.


You're going to have a driveway over there. You can see. Not too bad. Two hundred eighty nine thousand. That was a little steep. Wow. For twelve hundred square feet I would say.


Then we have this house, two bedroom, two bath, eleven hundred seventy eight square feet with an upstairs. So that's a tiny fucking house. That's a little house. It's on three point two. Three acres. Yeah. So a little bit of land here. That's kind of that house with some land. Three hundred fifty four thousand dollars of stuff for this house. Oh my gosh. It's pricey. Then you have this. Yeah.


Let's say stay big big rolling green on up to it.


That's pretty high. Peak roof. It's nice. Four bedroom, four bath, four thousand four hundred and seventy five square feet, high walls and behold tee ball for everybody. How about each and every on three point one five acres to. Yeah. So you have some space around you. Eight hundred twenty five thousand bucks. That's going to cost about. Must be nice for the little thing.


That's a rough one. So yeah, it's a little pricey there and that one's a little overpriced because the estimate is eight hundred fifteen thousand.


Oh. What they're trying to pull there's just some, that's probably why they were where they want to land. Maybe they had a credit card they need to pay off to start like we do at eight.


Twenty five. They're going to offer eight and we're going to we're going to bang. Oh, Mariga, we're going to do eight fifteen things to do. Yeah. In this town I found Amwell Valley Hounds. This looks like these are some rich, pretentious twats.


No, no. They've got fucking novelty dogs. Oh no. This is fox hunting. Jimmy, stop it with your dog. Hold your mouth. You're on horses, Jimmy. Horses dressed like a fucking idiot. Oh, no. They put it out for all they did writing.


You have the whole riding gear. You're with your dogs. You go out, look at the house, you come out of it. Yeah. Hounds meet on Wednesdays and Sundays, throughout January through March. Wow.


Twice a week. Look at these people. Jesus, they have top hat and as a god damn thing flowing off, she's sitting side saddle. It's like a veil. It's like they're all pretending like they're like 17th, 18th century British upper class.


Yeah, you're not.


You live with in Jersey. You live in in a in a redneck town in New Jersey. You figure out how to do that.


Currently there are over one hundred and fifty organized hub hunt clubs in North America. It says here where mounted riders follow a pack of hounds as they chase wild quarry.


Well, well, that's not you doing a god damn thing. Now you just run with the hounds and they chase it and whatever. Is it out? I don't know if you shoot it then or. Maybe they'll tell us, let it free. I don't know, maybe the dogs eat it, I don't know. Certainly the thrill of riding over the countryside is on. A fine horse who meets his fence as well is a thrill for anyone. Also, the sight and sound of a pack of hounds in full cry is breathtaking.


Today's hunters have a special reward the permission to ride over a magnificent private and public land. No group of individuals is more aware of this privilege, nor is their group more outspoken in their desire to protect quarry and preserve their environment. It is a sport enjoyed by people from all walks of life in any age group for all rich white people. And here all old, rich white people of any age protected the foxes.


So we can set our hounds loose on this as we ride over public and private lands to begin, hounds are directed by the huntsman to a covert, into a covert, to locate a covert, to locate the scent of a fox and follow it. Speaking or barking on its path is known as the line. The field of riders follow the hounds closely as possible without interfering with the hounds or the fox. Fox runs through the country, cunningly evading the hounds until they eventually lose his scent or the fox goes to ground in his den.


OK, so they're just. They're just. It's. Yeah, you're not even eating it at the end.


Hunting is very different every day, but bobbly the fox and the scent determine the pace. Jesus Christ.


Let's just chase it till it dies of a fucking heart attack. What the fuck. Yeah, this is that's if you did that to. Why is that legal? If you did that to a person, you know, I mean, they chased a guy. He ran into his house. Yeah.


I mean, technically I guess you could say I was just running and then you decided to run to because I mean, I was chasing you. I'm going to get you, motherfucker. That would be a different story. But if you just run and someone else runs to. No, I'm just running. I'm talking about if you got a pack of dogs chasing some dude, bunch of assholes on horseback and we're all just chasing this guy till he goes into his house, that's fucking assault.


Yeah, that's a stop. I think that's what the Klan did. That's not good. That's horrible shit. And you're going to protect that fox so that you can go do it again in fucking four days. Hey, leave them alone. We're going to go chase him again. You leave him alone till we get to fuck with him. Oh, my God.


Non-driving members known as supporters can car follow the hunt.


What is this? What are you driving behind? So then there's a of what? A bunch of jeeps and then a bunch of upper crust bewigged douche bags and stupid riding outfits on horses in front of you, then a pack of dogs and then one little fox out in the front trying a couple of dudes and Teslas to keep it quiet.


So weird. You can car follow and also partake in the various social functions, such as hunt breakfast after Sunday hunts or annual hunt ball blessing of the hounds on our formal opening day and various private parties throughout the season. These people do like eyes wide shut, but for sure it's got to be fucking involved. There's some fingers in bottles. Everything is covered in jars after a Sunday with these people.


This is creepy as fuck. What a weird thing. I'm done reading about these people. Crime rate in this town we're interested in. Here is the property crime here is very low. It is seventy one percent lower than the national average. So much lower. Yeah, it's very low. And then the violent crime rate, murder, rape, robbery and assault, the Mount Rushmore of crime is even lower. Seventy three percent lower than the national average super safe.


So it's a farm town, the middle of nowhere. This story is the ultimate. You're never safe, right? That's what this show is about, this small town murder from the beginning. The reason why I thought it was a fun idea, not fun, but kind of scary and intriguing to me is a creepy thing, is that nobody's ever safe. And you feel like, well, maybe if I can go here, then I'll be safer.


And if I move to a small town, it'll be nice and quiet. Right now it's still up twice a week.


And get on horseback. Yeah, chase a fox for apparently no reason. There's no reward. No, none. Nothing.


They don't even get the knots. I mean, there's not like I got this pelt that whatever hunters are after weird shit somewhere, I don't know.


But you don't eat a fox, right.


You just take the fur from. I don't think this doesn't seem like a lot and read that redemption you do, but I don't know if that's real life. They eat them. It's a video. Oh God. It's like a game. I don't know what they eat in that they eat the fucking fox.


Don't you eat what you know, you sell the you sell the thing straight. You trade because you sell the pelts. So you sit there. Andy Carvin ripped the pelts off and you throw the meat on the ground because you don't want it.


That seems terrible. It seems disgusting. Yes. Yeah.


So but this is the ultimate story of you are never safe, no matter how idyllic you make your life, no matter how removed you are, no matter how perfect everything is, anything could happen. So that said, let's talk about a murder, right. Let's talk about a young lady.


First of all, here, like I said, this is won't be a long story, but it's going to be a good story. Deborah Asmar. Dylan is 17 years old. OK, Debbie, she's known as 17 years old, this is in August of nineteen seventy three. So we're talking summer vacation, summer vacation. She's going into her senior year of high school. So this is like the golden time of high school, if there is one.


Right. But that that. Oh, we're almost done. That feels good at least anyway. So she is a straight a straight-A student at Hunterdon Central High School. She's an officer in the class. She's elected class something. Yep. And a member of the band as well. So she's active. She's smart, she's engaged and talented, apparently talented, doing well, pretty 17 going into her senior year. The life the world could not be more your oyster for this young lady.


You know what I mean? In the 70s. In the 70s, as a matter of fact, it's so her oyster that even she even comes from wealth and privilege and nice people. She's the daughter of Dr. and Mrs. Solomon Margolin. He she is Dr. Margolin is a pharmacologist with a with a business degree from oh, I'm sorry, with a business in Princeton, New Jersey. OK, so he makes good money, pharmacologists for a pharmacologists to see.


I don't know, a pharmacist makes medicine, it seems like above. You're not just counting or whatever you're like. He's like a surgeon. Yeah. I don't know what the hell he's chopping them up into little pieces, snorting them. I don't know. It's a little bit of vikan. And let's not cut this in Advil. How about Vischer. Denville.


Yeah he makes. I couldn't wear it like that. He is.


He formerly also served on the East Amwell Board of Education. So very very very bright man obviously here. And she is also oh he owns afflicted medical research affiliated medical research of Princeton.


Afflicted, afflicted. It's like people are fucked up. It sounds like the company that Joe Rogan and Dana White. Yeah. Contracted a very fine. Yeah. The afflicted medical research to check the guys heads. Yeah. So yeah, that's what he owns. So he's owns like a medical research company.


Yeah. That's pretty well for himself. Right. Feel like he does. OK, the Marlins in addition to having Debbie, they also have three sons, David, who at the time is twenty five years old. He's a mining engineer who was home visiting his family for some time during the summer. He's here in August as well. It's kind of all family hanging out at the farmhouse. And there's also Bernard, who's twenty three, and Daniel who are twenty one, and they both still live at home.


I think they're finishing up school or something like that.


So even Daniel Bernard and Debbie and Debbie Bernard with the BEA and everything else gets a D and he's the middle boy which makes no sense. I can see the younger one. They're like we're not doing it anymore.


The older one, they didn't think of it yet, but the middle one, you know, it it's very strange, not you. You don't fit in one of these things.


It's not like the others that he can't come for ice cream. Now, the morning of August 13th, nineteen seventy three comes around lazy summer day eleven thirty a.m.. Yeah. So I mean think about they probably just woke up, you know, as a kid, as a teenager going out their lazy summer day. Deborah here. Seventeen years old is a tough life. She's sunbathing on the patio of her parents farm house here in Austin, East Amwell Township, New Jersey.


She's hanging out, getting ready for life to become much better for her. She's wearing a two piece bathing suit and she's just laying out here hanging. I'm going to spend time probably loving it. Yeah. So what is it? Seventy three. She's got some sort of terrible music on Hot, but there's probably some bad pop though from back. Maybe. So I'm not thinking the good stuff. I'm thinking the it's not what you call classic rock out of that crap.




Now while she's there a white car drives up to the house and the driver beeps the horn several times, several times up. And this is set apart from stuff. So you have to make a commitment to come here. This isn't like you people don't pull it and use the driveway to turn around or anything. It's a farmhouse, for chrissake. They have cows and shit here. OK, so they have cows. Now, the girl's brother, her brothers, Daniel and Bernard, were upstairs and they looked out from the windows and they saw dusty white vehicle with what they called too severe dents in the right side of it.


So it's fucked up. It's all fucked up. And he's like, that's drivable. Yeah. Someone was like, still drives a tire. Don't rub. Too bad, right? It's only when I hit deep, deep pockets.


I mean, eventually that will rub off and it'll be fine. I'll clear it and its trunk is tied shut some sort of rope or this car's barely roadworthy.


It's a pile of shit. Yeah.


There's a male driver in it. Which doesn't surprise me, who wore loose fitting clothing and quote, this is what the brother said, quote, looked like a factory worker. So this is what an upper crust that that sounds like.


And I don't mean to pick on a guy with a kid, but I mean to say, like, he looked like a factory worker, I don't know, some sort of factory worker approach into the vehicle and approach to the estate.


I said, we have no scraps for you.


Say, Bernard, he doesn't belong here. Yeah, but I tell him he doesn't belong here. Then hop in the car and go with this. So you go to.


So Daniel heard the man tell Deborah that he saw a heifer was loose, a cow. A cow is loose down at the bottom of the driveway and they have cows. So he was driving by, saw a cow down there was like, those people probably don't want the cows to be loose and in farm country.


Yeah. You see this? You do a neighbor return. If you see their cow, you don't want to let it wander away. Those are expensive. Yeah. Now me up there that's coming out of my business.


Some people go, oh, somebody is going to hit that guy. Cow could be about to steal their car. It could be like hot wiring.


It might be my business I don't know anything about. So she Debra ends up saying, well, OK, God damn it, because this isn't this isn't uncommon if you have cows. So she says, I'll take care of it. Fine. Tells the brothers I got it. Don't worry about it. No bikini in her bikini. She's going to go round up the heifer. That's how this works. So she's about eleven thirty. She takes off to look for the heifer and it's like four or five hours go by and she doesn't come home.


Like where the hell is she with this heifer. Like, you know, an hour tops to get a cow back here. Finally at five forty five they are really starting to be like, OK, what's going on here? So they notify police say our daughter's missing and they help us look for the only thing they have is that she told her brother she didn't need any help getting the cow because he's like, you want me to come help you?


And she's like, I got it. And she got into the family's car, one of the family's cars, and drove down the driveway and followed the guy in the white car because he was leaving. So that's how that worked. And that's the last time they saw her. So later that afternoon, she doesn't come home like they said. They searched the area everywhere. They don't find a cow, but they do find in a stream. Now they find Deborah there and not in a good state of affairs.


Deborah is very much not alive. Face down in a street block. Yeah, her throat had been slashed, severing her windpipe and her jugular vein are the worst. So a very deep violent that's a violent deep slash. You got to really put some muscle into that one. It's like an eight year old kid didn't do that. That's that's an an angry adult right there. She was nude except for part of her bathing suit was around her waist.


And this is rough here.


Stab and cutting wounds had been inflicted in the pelvic and vaginal area is one year and her right breasts had also been stabbed noticeably. Some attention had been paid to that.


And a lot of times when you get this sort of attack, this is a guy who is rageful against women, he's rageful, and this is a guy who wants to sexually assault the person and can't because of their own, that that's what happens, that they use a an instrument to take it out because I can't because my body by shit's fucked up. So, yeah, that's the psychology of someone who would do that. So this obviously is insane.


This doesn't happen around here. They go nuts. Windows are boarded up.


This is all strangers. Everybody keep an eye. People are loading their rifles and shotguns and people are like sitting on the roofs making sure no one's driving up to their houses. People are not fucking around about this. They moved here to not deal with this shit. It's your kids, especially a doctor. This guy figures out, Christ Almighty, I got this nice business. I'll move my kids out to somewhere super safe. They'll go to good schools.


They'll follow in my footsteps or do whatever the hell I want them to do and keep them out of Newark, keep them out of the ghetto. Camden in this scene, everything's going to be fine. And so who could have done this? Boy, oh, boy, oh, boy. Oh, boy.


Here now people felt the brother here, Bernard, he spotted later on because they're looking a couple of days go by, he spots a car fitting the description of the car they saw in the driveway.


He sees that car stands out as it stands out. Exactly.


And this same car, a road crew, had halted his vehicle that very same day that he came, the same day he had contact that this car had contact with Deborah. This car had been stopped by a road crew and the road crew person said they saw a paper bag. A brown paper bag, which someone else tried saw him use to try to clean off the seat of his car. OK, they saw him like wiping his car, his car seat off with a brown paper bag.


Yeah, like wiping it down while he was stopped at a road.


You know, they make one lane so that they can fix the pavement. Exactly. I guess he was the first one in line so they could see what he was doing there.


And yeah, there's also right after that there is they find out the man whose car that belongs to and we'll talk about him in a second here. His name is Frank Melvin Miller Jr.. Yeah, of course, if you ever listen to crime and sports, you'll understand what that means. But inordinate amount of juniors turn out to be.


It's it is fast. It's fascinating. I don't know why it's either them or the dad or the hubris between the two makes a potent violent cocktail, very violent and very potent here.


I met a man recently whose name was Junior, and I asked him, I said, I have a theory. How many days do you have? And he goes, none. He goes, but my dad has three. That makes all the sense. Perfect. You nailed it. I'm still I'm still batting a thousand here. That's what I mean. So he this miller that they find because they're looking into him, because his car matches the description, they do a little poking around.


They find out that that very day or the next day after the girl disappeared, Deborah, he visited a the hospital room of a guy named Henry Pucher at the Huntington or Huntington Medical Center. Pucher was there for injuries suffered when his motorcycle was involved in a sideswiped with Miller's car. That's what those dents are. So that's probably yeah, that's what the dents are.


And it's here that Miller, Franklin, Melvin Miller Jr. tried to tell this pucher he goes to the hospital and goes, yeah, you left your bunch of your there's a bunch of your blood in my car from the accident. So somehow he like blood shot out of his body through the window and all over the seat of the car, which is that's some wild blood. It came out of his ear on impact, sloshes out like a cup that's too full.


Yeah. I mean, got a lot of blood in your body as he went across the hoodie through some at the pass. I think you just shot it in there. That's what he said. So that's an odd visit because. Yeah, that's weird. And they do find blood on Miller's car seat and it turns out that it's the same blood type, no DNA back in nineteen seventy three as Deborah. So they're interested in Franklin here, blood in his car, car seen at the scene, same blood type as the victim.


They do a little little digging into his past here. The description they get, they know once they hear the description of the car, they looked for him immediately is small area car that stands out. The last guy that saw. Yeah, the cops know the guy with the trunk that's tight, closed. They pull that car over, they notice that they're like, that'll be dead on the side of the road one day. So they they find out that he was had been convicted in nineteen sixty nine as in on a charge of carnal abuse.


Let's talk about what that was. And it also been arrested a month before this happened with Deborah, July, July 10th. Nineteen seventy three on a morals charge of contributing to the delinquency of a minor. He likes young girls and it sounds like the record of him is that he's born in nineteen forty in his youth. He got in trouble in school for pinching girls breasts in school. Like like. Like Haab. Yeah, not like sexually. Like I'm getting off on feeling your boobs and a creepy weird way.


Violent titty twister. Yeah. Pinching girl's boobs. I don't know if they wouldn't let him touch them so he got mad and punched him. That's not the way you get. What age is he doing this in middle school. High school.


When there's boobs. Yeah. I mean, all right. You know, for that I would have been probably just. Yeah. And made sexually explicit comments to them. This is in the fifties. So this is you can't do that at school and stole female's clothes when they hung outside to dry like Jerry Bruto style stealing shoes.


He would go through the neighborhood and steal women's like underwear and clothes off clotheslines and shit and then fuck them, probably fuck them somehow. After this, he gets married and has four children. What? Good God, help us all.


Yeah. And he's divorced. Thanks shit. In nineteen seventy three he's working as a laborer at P, F and D Plastics and Flemington.


Oh God. Yeah it sounds awful. It sounds like it sounds and smells like burning lamington in Philly up in Flemington. Yeah. Sounds like there's flab involved.


Everybody is like an hour ago you plastic. It's just stuck in my throat. The fumes of everywhere you go and just that. What are you from Flemington's Flemyng where I work at the plant. I can smell it. Raffia.


So the day of the day of the Debbie disappearing, he showed up for work that day at three pm scheduled as because they want to see if he showed up for work. Is usually murderers don't show up for work that they skipped the day he showed up at three p.m. So somehow between 11, 30 and 3:00, they're saying he killed her, got cleaned up and got himself composed enough to go to work the plastics factory. Fascinating. That's what it is.


He's taken into custody that day. The day they find him at work, they go and find him and they take him into custody at ten, thirty pm. That's when they take him in there. They also find out and that's when they dig into his past and find his criminal record. In 1968, he was arrested for this is when he's twenty eight years old for raping a 13 year old girl. That's the carnal abuse while wearing a watch.


No, this is different. Oh, my God. While wearing a woman's stocking over his head to make it extra terrifying for the poor kid, you know, and that kid for a fucking eighth grader, that's just disturbing.


So right away, he's a monster, an absolute fucking monster. He was convicted of carnal abuse and served three and one half years to 12 to 15 years of it to serve three and a half years of a 12 to 15 year sentence. That's the carnal abuse charge. That's what they call carnal abuse.


He did three and a half years for raping a 13 year old girl with a woman stocking on his fucking head and and the charges.


And even now, it doesn't even define know what he really did know. He should be charged with rape.


And I mean, I don't know what cardinal abuse meant in terms of the law back then, because it sounds awful, but it doesn't sound like raping a fucking third about raping a child.


That that's really that's got some sting to that'll stick around a little longer. Stick to it. You're going to put that on a billboard. People's eyes are going to totally shit what be talking about up there. Carnal abuse.


Sounds like I don't know what you should be arrested for, for mounting a horse and chasing a fox.


Carnal abuse is like what Marc Zamora did. Yeah, that was the cardinal abuse. Yeah. If like if it's what if it's his story and not what she said. If it's what the court decided, that would be like carnal abuse, what they settled on. That's when a hot tub with a teenager. But nothing happened. That would be whatever, but not this. So they let him out.


What's up? But nothing, you know, still a problem. It's still a charge, but not, you know, not rape. It's different.


It's just gross. And it's Kartal abuse and still putting you in jail. I'm not OK with it. Yeah. That's going to lead to something. We should frown. Yeah. Everyone step in here that's gotten a hot tub with somebody else's 13 year old. That should be cardinal. That's bad stuff. So he's paroled in September of seventy two so not very long. This is July of seventy three. He's arrested again. This is for fornication and contributing to the delinquency of a minor, which was the sixteen year old daughter of a coworker.


And I cry. So he found a co-worker. Sixteen year old daughter got her locked up and planned. Nelda, this is disgusting.


And she I guess she did it willingly. So it's. Yeah, it's not right. It's not rape. It's still disgusting, disgusting. And it's still statutory and it's still absolutely gross.


He receives a two to three year sentence for the crime to run consecutive to a sentence received for violating parole. So he's still on parole from his first offense and on bail from his second from a month ago here. They let him out on bail. For some reason, they didn't just violate his parole and keep him in. He's arrested for doing the same fucking thing again.


But since it's not with someone so young, they let him bail out, not so young and sans pantyhose.


Yeah. On his head.


So if they would have just violated his parole right here, he's not out a month later for this whole thing, which is exactly what Charles Manson, same thing. If they were just violating him on his parole, any of the ten times he was arrested that year, this none of the shit would happen. So he's jailed on July 10th there. That was the one the month before he was released on a twenty five hundred dollar property bond put up by his parents who he lived with.


So the arresting officer in that case a month before is also participating in the Debra Margolin homicide case here now noted the description of the car seen in the driveway. He goes, I know that guy and I know what he likes. And it's young girls. And it would be her in a bikini on the goddamn porch. When he pulled up, he probably saw her from the road.


Right. It was like from being pulled back. What can I say? Lucifer, Lucifer.


Also, the appearance is the same on the description given by witnesses. So they questioned him. They bring him in at 10:00 pm PM that day, right from the plastics factory in Flemington, right from the Flem factory. And they give they have some conversation where he gave the officers permission to examine his car, which was parked there. He agreed to, you know, accompany them to barracks for questioning. They arrived at the barracks at eleven forty nine.


The questioning began a little bit later and lasted for only fifty eight minutes. OK, OK, so it's late at night, but he's a second shift guy. He doesn't go to bed, he's not normally asleep, it's 4:00 in the afternoon for him, he gets off of work at midnight and then gets shitfaced probably all night and goes to bed at six and then wakes up at 2:00 and goes to work. That's probably his schedule. Schedule.


Yeah. So he they read him his Miranda rights and he expressed his willingness to talk without an attorney being present. However, he asked for and was given reassurance that his right to stop at any time and remain silent if he wanted to. So he then signed and dated his Miranda rights guard. And in the beginning, he he denied any involvement in the episode with Debbie Margolin at the farmhouse or the death or anything. Don't know shit about it. Never been there.


Nothing. So this goes on a little bit. They talk for a little while, like I said, not very long. The whole thing takes fifty eight minutes. Luckily, though, there is a taped transcript of this whole thing that went down and the transcript was ends up being read in its entirety to the court of fact.


Oh yeah.


Later on there is a now we'll start here with, we are going to do an addition of a small town murder piece theater.


Right. Which is our our little back and forth.


Jimmy, you are the D. Yes. For defendant now than I am the T for trooper which is me would be dick head for Dick and I only pick the trial he made you the criminal or the alleged at this point before the end of this confession. Criminal because it's less reading. Yeah. And I'm a stronger reader. The only reason why honestly, I swear to God, seven oftentimes struggle once in a while. Jimmy will struggle with that.


I did think recently that my daughter might be dyslexic because she's struggling with reading. And then I was like, maybe she's just I don't know my daughter. She's a Listman. So this, as you can see at the top, I circled the first two because I can only I'm on. There we go.


I got a D so I can read D, we see that. So he said this went back and forth a little bit and there was a minor discrepancy in Franklin's timetable. So the trooper pressed a little bit and he said, OK, now this is a problem. I realize this is a problem. And he pointed out that the vehicle had damage and all that. And then he goes into this small town Masterpiece Theater, an idiot being confessed, an idiot being tricked.


Here we go. Quote, Here we go. There was blood on the left front interior portion of your vehicle tonight. Fresh blood. Fresh blood. Yes, sir. This is very, very serious. I realize this. That's that's the point. Here we have a witness, Frank. Now, this is the point. This is point four. We have a witness who identified your car. Who. No, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Let me I shouldn't say your car.


You identified a vehicle that fits the description of your car at this girl's home, speaking with her, telling her something about our cow being loose or something like that, someone who was there who wanted to help her and they didn't want to hurt this girl. That's what I heard. They didn't want to hurt this girl, Frank. They wanted to help her. You see, I know this. I know that. Yeah. Yeah. Because I can appreciate that because I would have done the same thing if there was something to be rectified.


If somebody had a problem, I would have done the same thing. I would have wanted to help her. That vehicle came on to the property. Yeah, right.


Fits the description of your vehicle. It does, yes. Now that's the fourth point. And when I say fits the description, what I mean, Frank, it fits the description to a tee. And we talked about before, remember, we talked about how many other vehicles are there like yours in the county.


Shouldn't be too many, if any, if any, because of the damage on the right hand side. Now, what would your conclusion be under those circumstances if someone told you that?


I'd probably I'd have to say the same conclusion you got. Which is what? That I'm the guy that did this, that did what committed this crime. OK, now he talks about the description, talks about that a little bit. We'll get into that. Now, he says, Frank, I don't think you're a criminal. I don't think you're a criminal. I don't think you have a criminal mind. As a matter of fact, I don't even I know you don't have a criminal mind because we've been talking now for a few hours together, haven't we?


Right. Right, right, right. Yeah. So you don't have a criminal mind. No, I know you don't. But like I noted before, we all have problems. Right? Am I right?


Right. Yeah. You did this over there at the plant and you said you said, wait, you said this of the. Yeah. And you agreed with me. Yes, sir. I have problems. And you have. Right, right. OK, so now how do you solve a problem that depends on the problem, your problem. How do we solve it. How are we going to solve it? This I don't know. Do you want me to.


I mean. Yeah. Do you want me to help you solve. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Do you want me to extend all the help I can possibly give you don't you right now. Are you willing to do the same for me. Yeah. OK, now I feel yeah. Whoever, whoever is responsible for this act. He's not a criminal, does not have a criminal mind. I think they have a problem. Do you agree with me?


Yeah, they have a problem, right? Right. A problem. And a good thing about that, Frank, is a problem can be rectified here. I want to help you. I mean, I really want to help you. But you know what they say. God helps those who help themselves, Frank. Right. We've got to get together on this. You know what I'm talking about, don't you? Yes.


Especially if they're trying to say that, you know, like that. Like you say, I'm identified and my car is identified and we got to get we got to get together on this. Yes, we do. Now, there's not it's only a few of the items that we have now. Your problem. I'm not. Let's forget this incident. OK, yeah.


I bet he would like to. Let's forget this incident. Let's talk about your problem. This is what this is what I'm concerned with, Frank. Your problem. Right. If I had a problem like your problem, I would want you to help me with my problem. Now, you know what I'm talking about. Yeah, and I know. And I think that a lot of other people know, you know, what I'm talking about. I don't think you're a criminal, Frank.


No, but you're trying to make me want. No, no, no, I'm not. I'm not.


But I want to talk to you. I want you to talk to me so we can get this thing worked out. And that's what I'm saying. This is what I want, Frank. I mean, it's all there. It's all there. I'm not saying this is you know, this this is what if she the victim was was to walk in here now?


I wouldn't know. I wouldn't know that she was the girl you're talking about.


But you are identified as being there talking to her minutes before she was probably this thing happened to her. How can you explain that? I can't. Why? I don't know why. You know, I you know, how can I explain something that I don't know anything about?


Frank, look, you want you want help, don't you, Frank?


Yeah, but yes. But I'm I'm not I'm not going to admit to something that I wasn't involved in. We don't want you to.


Nobody wants that. All I want you to do is talk to me. That's all. I'm not talking about admitting to anything. Frank, I want you to talk to me. Why you? To tell me what you think. I want me to tell you how you feel about this, what you think about this. What do I think about it? Yeah, I think whoever did it really needs help.


And that's what I think. And that's what I know they don't need. They don't need punishment. Right. Like you said, they need help. Right. Right. They don't need punishment. They need help. Good medical help. That's right. To rectify their problem. Putting them in prison isn't going to solve it, is it?


No, sir. I know I was in there for three and a half years. That's right. That's the that's not going to solve your problem, is it? No.


You get you don't you get no help down there. The only thing you learn how to do is, you know. Well, let's let's say let's say this, Frank. Suppose you were the person who needed help. Let's say it was you. It helped me. Well, what would you want somebody to do for you? Help me in what way?


In in in any way they they see, you know, fit. That would help me. OK, well, then then did you still feel this way that something might happen? That might happen. It would be their fault. Because as far as I'm concerned, if if something did happen, it's not your fault. It's their fault. Right. Right. Now, listen to me, Frank. This hurts me more than it hurts you because I love people.


It can't hurt you any more than it hurts me.


OK, listen, Frank, I want you I mean, even even being involved in something like this, OK? Listen, Frank, I promise, if I promise to, you know, do all I can do with the psychiatrists and everything and we can get the proper help for you and get the proper help for you. Will you talk to me about it? I can't talk to you about something I'm not. Ah, all right.


All right, all right. Listen, Frank. All right. Honest, I know. I know what's going on inside you, Frank. I want to help you. You know, between us right now, I know what's going on inside of you, Frank. You've come to forward and tell me that you want to help yourself. You've got to talk to me about it. This is the only way we'll be able to work it out. I mean, you know, listen, I want to help you because you're in my mind and in my mind, you are not responsible.


You're not responsible. Frank.


Frank, what's the matter? I feel bad. Frank, listen to me. Honest to God, I'm telling you, Frank, I know it's going to bother you, Frank. It's going to bother you. It's there. It's not going to go away. It's there. It's right in front of you. Frank, am I right or wrong? Yeah, you can see it, Frank. You can feel it. You can feel it. But you're not you're not responsible.


That's what I'm trying to tell you. It's I keep saying. But you've got to come forward and tell me. Don't, don't don't let it eat you up. Don't don't fight it. You've got to rectify it, Frank. You've got to we've got to get together on this thing. I mean, really, you need help. You need you need proper help. And you know it. My God. You know what in God's name you you know it.


You're not a criminal. You know you're not a criminal. All right. Yes, I was over there and I talked to her about the car and I left, I left in my car and I stopped up on the road where, you know, where the cow had been and she followed me in her car.


OK, you you killed this girl, didn't you? No, I didn't. Honest, Frank, it's got it's got to come out. You can't leave it in. It's hard for you. I realize. I realize how hard it is. It's difficult. I realize that. But you've got to help yourself before anybody can help you. And we're going to see to that you get the proper help. Frank. This is our job, Frank. This is our job.


This is what I want to do by sending me back down there. Wait a second. Now, don't talk. Don't talk about going back down there. First thing we have to do is let's let it all come out. Don't fight it because it's worse, Frank. It's worse. It's hurting me because I feel it. I feel it wanting to come out. That's the thing. It's but it's hurting me. Frank, think you're my brother. I mean, we're brothers.


All men on this. All men on this face of this earth are brothers. Frank, you've got to be completely honest with me. I'm trying to be. But you don't want to believe me. I want to believe you, Frank, but I want you to tell me the truth, Frank, and you know what I'm talking about. And, you know, I know you know what I'm talking about. You've got to tell me the truth.


Can't help you without the truth, Frank. I'm telling you the truth. Sure. That's our blood in my car. Because when I see the way she was cut, I wanted to help her. And then she she fell over and I got scared to even be involved in something like this being on parole.


And I realize this is as Frank may have been an accident. Is that isn't that possible, Frank? Sure it's possible. Well, this is what I'm trying to bring out, Frank.


It may be something that you did and you can't be held accountable for or this is I mean, I can help you. I can help you once you tell me the truth. You know what I'm talking about. I want to help you, Frank. I like you. You've been honest with me. You've been sincere and I've been the same way with you. Now, this is the kind of relationship we have, you know, but I can't help you unless you tell me the just the complete truth.


I'll listen to you. I'll understand. I understand, Frank. You have to believe that. I understand. I understand how you feel. I understand how much it hurts you inside. I understand how you feel because I feel it, too, because someday I may be in the same situation, Frank, but you've got to help yourself. Tell me exactly what happened. Tell me the truth, Frank. Frank, please. I'm telling you the truth and let me help you.


It could have been an accident. You you've you've got to tell me the truth, Frank. You know what I'm talking about. I can't help you without the truth now, you know, and I know that's that's that's all that counts, Frank. You know, you know. And I know what that's what counts. And that's what it's all about. We can't hide it from each other because we both know you've got to be willing to help yourself.


You know, I don't think you're a criminal. You have this problem like we talked about before, right?




You you say this now, but the thing goes to court and everything. Oh, no. Now, listen to me, Frank, please. You're not the issue now is what happened. The truth is now. The truth is now. The issue is now. Truth is the issue. Now you've got to believe this and the truth prevails in the end, Frank, you've got to believe that. And I'm sincere when I'm saying it to you. You've got to be truthful with yourself.


Yeah. Truth you say in the end. Right. That's why I don't.


Three and a half years. Four. Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. For a crime I never committed.


And and one stinking detective, Freeman Frank, Frank, the name Marocco. Frank, Frank, you're talking to me now is we have a relationship, don't we? Have I been sincere with you, Frank?


You have I been honest? Yes.


Have I defined your problem, Frank? Have I been willing to help you? Have I stated I'm willing to help you all I can.


Yes. Do I mean it? Yes. Whenever I talk to anybody, I talk the same way because you have a very, very serious problem and we want to prevent anything in the future. This is what's important, Frank. Now, what happened in the past? None of that. It's right now. We're living now, Frank, we want to help you. You've got a lot more a lot more years to live. No, I don't.


Yes. Yes, you do. No, I don't. Don't say you don't.


Now, you've got to you've got to tell me not after all this, because this is going to kill my father. Listen, Frank, Frank, this is where you the truth comes out. Your father will understand. This is what you have to understand, Frank. If the truth is out, he'll understand. That's the most important thing, not what has happened. Frank, the fact is, you were truthful. You came forward and you said, look, I have a problem.


And I didn't mean to do what I did. I have a problem. This is what's important, Frank. This isn't that's this is very important. I got I. I got to get closer to you, Frank. I got to got to make you believe this. And I'm I'm sincere when I tell you this. You've got to tell me exactly what happened. Frank, that's very important. I know how you feel inside, Frank. It's eating you up.


Am I right? It's eating you up, Frank. You've got to come forward. You've got to do it for yourself, for your family, for your father. This is what's important. The truth. Frank, just tell me he didn't mean to kill her, did you? I thought she was dead or I'd have never dropped her off like that.


I mean, Frank, this is hurting me. God, listen, I just want you to come out and tell me so I can help you, and that's it. And then she goes on to say that, yeah, sure, that's the blood in the car, and he goes on to say that basically he was stabbing her. Then he goes on to say he stabbed her with his penknife. Oh, God. A little bit. Yeah, just a little bit.


Just just goes on the cover up and like the chest and in the back.


Well, he says that while here it is right here, he says that he's been that was a lot of fun, to be honest with you. That was good. Yes. I really want to be the job you. I don't think you want to be that guy, but I want to play him. Yes, there's a lot of fun. He was so sure he's he's he's an idiot. Straight to the point. Yeah. So he says that he was unable to find the car, that the cow the girl got in his car to go down the road to see if the car was there.


They drove down by the bridge where he took a penknife from his pocket and started cutting her. He said that he had no real recollection of what he did to the girl or why, although he remembered throwing her body off the bridge. So he tossed her off the bridge into the stream. After the incident, he said he drove home and using a hose, he washed the blood from the seat of the car in order to answer the officers inquiry here.


He said he would be willing to write it all in a formal statement at this point, at the end of the interrogation, before a written statement could be prepared.


He collapses on the floor, collapses.


In his testimony, the troopers described it as, quote, a state of shock, unquote. He'd been sitting up in a chair and slid off the chair onto the floor, maintaining a blank stare on his face, staring straight ahead. And we were unable to get any kind of verbal response from him at the time.


Catatonic. Oh, what a fucking asshole. That is just sheer panic. That is is pathetic. That's pathetic.


Oh, my God. So they said he had a nervous breakdown. His eyes went up and his had any keeled over as if he had fainted. A first aid squad was contacted and he was taken to the hospital. Our concern for the treatment of the defendant in the patent denial of due process is substantially tempered by our conviction of the defendant's guilt. That's them talking about this. He's going to be fucking guilty, but that's basically what they're saying. And, yeah, he goes to trial.


And the whole thing about it is that they he says that the confession shouldn't be in because the cop tricked him, OK?


A tricked him because the cops only cared about him and was on the path to Saint. After this is all over, we should get in the park.


We should go. Yeah, I'll come visit you and I'll get past the sun. It's going to be great. Hey, the Patriots game, this is New Jersey. The last one was I knew how giants of the hey, the Jets games. Coming up, more and more of an Eagles fan. You know, it's an hour in between. So this this is like his whole thing is like he said that also that he had a witness and he said, well, he lied to me about the witness and all that, but I don't know how it was in nineteen seventy three the laws were because, I mean, Miranda had just kind of come in.


So the laws were a lot different. Nowadays you're allowed to lie like a motherfucker. You read the homicide book, put your hand on a Xerox machine and that's a lie detector test. That's that's fine. Thing is, if you got nothing to hide, just tell the truth. Yeah. I mean, obviously some things are and shit like that. But this this is that's not coercion. That is talking someone into telling you the truth. Well, how else would you how else would you interrogate a person?


How else do you just come in and go, I think you did this. No, no, I didn't. I got to go. Yeah. Did you kill her now? All right.


That's all I got. I can't lie to the coffin from the desk. What J say is I didn't do it. I don't know. What are you going to do? I got full shore, so I don't want to push it. Don't you lie to me. You lie to me. Boy, I swear to God, I'll come over that desk choking on a young girl's. So that's what I mean. This is like this to me is a standard modern day police interrogation.


This guy is just ahead of his time. Yeah. And he this is exactly he gave him the window. He got a little window. It was an accident. Wasn't Frank. You didn't mean to do you wouldn't do this. You don't have a criminal mind. You're not a bad guy. You can do this. It's oh, maybe I can get out and maybe I could if I tell him I can talk my way out of this. He gave him every little trick.


I'm your brother on this and that.


It's fascinating to watching the the devolution of his statement go, no, I didn't do nothing. She was already dead. Yeah, well, I saw I mean, she was already dead. I thought she was dead. That's why I threw that. I don't remember I don't remember stabbing her in her private parts. That turns into there. Exactly. So in court they go, yeah, no, that's in your fucked. And he is convicted of first degree murder and sentenced.


You, sir, may fuck off life with with the chance of parole. Why do they why would you give him a chance of getting so many chances? He progressed exactly the way you expect someone.


Progress and sorry, so much for strike three. Nineteen eighty four, he appeals and it's the confession is the big thing. He says that it's trickery, cajolery, dissembling and exaggeration. And they have a complete deal of the transcript. And the state court overturns the conviction based on the confession being coerced out of him, which that's the least coerced. It was like an hour long. It's an hour long. You can't coerce someone. And if someone can't defend someone's not even physical anything, just verbal assault for an hour, then you're not tough enough to be a murderer.


Sir, I'm sorry. What's going to happen in prison? So this is this is goddamn ridiculous.


And she they do this. So the cop who did the interrogation, he says he did it fine. He said that's how you're supposed to do an interrogation. He said, quote, I would not have done it differently. He noted the state police receive instruction on the technique of interrogation. He said the compulsion to confess is there. The only problem is to find the proper key. The window. It's a little window, he added. You proceed with caution.


You try to protect the state's rights, the people's rights and his rights. Miller's rights. This is what I tried to do. It wasn't as if Miller had not gone through this all before. He'd been. This isn't the first time an interrogation room. Memories got to forceable. Whatever the rape offences, he said he could have stopped it at any time. I read him his rights, he said, you know, you told him, you want to stop, we can stop.


He didn't want to stop. Did you see anywhere on that tape? He said, stop now. So the reaction was the to the fact getting thrown out. Mrs. Margolin is very upset. Sure. She says what bothers me is we're no longer concerned with guilt or innocence, but just a technicality. What difference does it make if you punish Miller or you don't? We have to eliminate the sickness in society. My husband's making the drugs for it, she said.


I hate to think what a new trial would be without the confession. She was barred from the trial because the fear that her distraught state at the time might somehow cause a mistrial. So they had her banned from the room. Her husband here is the developer of Contac. What the drug contacts. Are you serious? Yes, that's what he did. That's the cold acid reflux shit.


Is it OK? Well, he did that. Yeah, it's manager of a drug reefer. Wow.


He told the press, quote, contact money. Yeah, he's got dough. We all know who did it. The problem is to find a proper legal frame. So they're at least they're smart and they understand what's going on. But the state, they appeal the appeal of that. And on this appeal, they say, you know what?


And after all, no retrial. Good. Fuck off. Get fucking off, you scumbag, asshole. Yeah, good. Because this guy's a dickhead. I have no sympathy for this guy whatsoever.


I mean, even if there is, let's say for the sake of the argument that there's some gray area in the in the confession, that that makes it feel a little a little iffy. Without that, it's there's no way to retry it. Now, this man is dangerous as far. Oh, he's going to go out. Let's tow the gray line on this one. Yeah. Especially because we were we know we did. We're right. We know what he's capable of.


He did it and he had blood in his car and all the good he did it. Absolutely. No. And this is his pattern. He's a he's a serial predator. If he didn't get caught for this, he'd have done it again and again and again and again. Somebody else's daughter is going to disappear. That would have gotten worse and worse and younger and younger probably, too, as he got more and more brazen. It's absolutely ridiculous.


They said that they his lawyer tried to say they improperly used mind bending psychological compulsion.


Did that sound? That's the reason why we read that all out, because I read you.


I wanted that mind bending. Not a bit. I have done I have done more to convince my kids to eat a food they don't like.


Like I cajoled more than that to get my son did a vegetable that I am that the words the detectives said were not a bit of it even led to. I would never go down the path of the confession from the words of that guy. No, never once. Never. If I didn't do it, no, I'd be like, what are you fucking are you fucking deaf? I don't care if someone does have a problem. It ain't me and I'm going home.


I got off my shift at the plastic factory. I went out of here. So he goes up for appeals and parole, became eligible for parole in nineteen ninety one. Oh my God. But was given a twelve year fuck off basically. But they have to see him again in nineteen ninety eight, even though it's not twelve years because of a law that was passed in nineteen eighty. That tells you that, that if you are convicted for life with you have to get a hearing after twenty five years.


So it's twenty five years from seventy three point ninety eight. So he can't be held longer. So they do that, they look at him, they go oh I don't think so. Good. Back to jail with you. Since 98, he's received annual review hearings. He has received a one month reduction in one of his things. Following each hearing that could be conducted where he said, I don't know, even know what that means till they see him again in 11 months next time.


Yeah, that's pretty much what it is here. But he was up again for parole. They had a whole thing. You couldn't write to the parole board saying, don't let this fucking guy out. Somebody said here I'm writing back, reminding the parole board that we had an informal hearing and that I vigorously opposed his release. That's the district attorney. I've done everything I can do so far. I'm going to monitor this closely. It's the everybody's scared that he's going to get off in 2010.


He argues that on appeal that in 1998 and all subsequent annual review hearings, information pertaining to a different inmate with a similar name, mistaken identity to the Max Frank T. Miller, not Frank Miller, but a different criminal history was utilized as a consequence. He wants to reopen the eight hearing because they're saying that he was he was reviewed as somebody as somebody else basically, who's been worse in jail. And that has worse crimes than him somehow than murdering a teenager after you sexually assault my.


So he says that he he's an alcoholic. He's completed the 12 step program. He doesn't deny or minimize his crimes. He says that he's ready to be part of society. And they go, I don't fucking think so. Not yet. We don't like you take a hike. And then I've lost him. I don't know where he is. I can't find an obituary. I can't find him in jail. I can't find anything. I can't find an article saying he was released because they have it's very well documented, all of his hearings and all this shit.


If he was released, I would assume somebody would go, hey, this monster is out there. Be careful. You know, whatever age he is now, he's eighty eight.


He'd be eighty, so he might be dead. And if he's eighty, he's going to be it's going to be harder for him to assault and attack and obviously that sort of thing.


But still, he's a dangerous old pervert, so I don't know if he's out there. Be careful in your 80s.


You can make somebody much more vulnerable though. Oh yeah. They'll guard their guards down. Exactly right. You're not pulling up with your tongue drug, your trunk type closed, your feeble. Can you help me? And your next thing you know, you're your deadline. But so that is that case there. East Amwell Township, New Jersey. Like I said, that is just a bonus. Thank you for being our people. Bonus year. You're never say and you're never this reminds you in this holiday season when you're home, cozy with your family, you're not safe.


The children aren't safe. None of you are safe. So that's our message of holiday cheer. That's what this show is all about. And if you like the show, please review on iTunes, Apple podcast, the purple icon. Get on there. Give us five stars. It really does help a lot. Head over to shut up and give me murder dotcom.


Right now, check out our live show, Virtual Live Show, January twenty ninth Anywhere in the world, January the 29th and it'll be available for three days after that. We're doing a real show, just like in the theater, except just from a studio, minus a theater, minus a theater. But we're going to pretend like you're all in a theater or in a theater. We got the mikes and everything for the aesthetics. The visuals are going to look great.


You're going to see the pictures bigger. I wish I had the idea to get cutouts. People could buy the cutouts and put them in the fucking studio.


That one out of sight. Out of a too late, though. I had over to shut up and give me murder dotcom for those tickets. Also, Patriot and Patriot dotcom slash crime and sports is where you go for all your bonus stuff, extra bonus stuff this week, the Christmas murders all throughout history in small town murder, a lot of fun that is there crazy. And then the, of course, much beloved personal ads from newspapers throughout time and some sales thrown in there as well.


Get all of that at Patriot on dotcom slash crime and sports. Also, Dremiel mispronounced your name and you'll be a producer. You can also be a producer at PayPal using our email address, crime and sports at Gmail dot com. Thank you, everybody. Honestly, we'll just end it with that and with shout outs are on the regular show. Thanks for everything you've done for us all year. Really. And hope you everybody's enjoying the holidays with their families.


And I just thank you guys so, so much. You've been amazing in the in the crow's nest navigating these icebergs. Thank you so much. The Titanic sails on. It's been great. It has. Thank you. See you later, everybody.


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