This button is not working. What floor are.

You guys going to? I'm going.

To three. Oh, maybe I'll just press that button and we can just go there.

I'm not really going to a floor. I'm just here for the ride.

You're just riding the elevator, just trying to meet people? My name is Jason, and this is my friend Sean. What's your name, friend? My name's Will.

Yeah. I'm sorry. I was not exercising. I'm just a heavy breather.

Are you hot today? Why are you not wearing anything but socks?

Are you guys looking for a friend? We're busy.

We got to do a podcast. Welcome to... Oh, welcome to SmartLess. That's it.

Oh.

My God. I'm so nervous. Do we just go or do we practice once?

Or No, we're just going to do it. We're just going to do it.

Okay.

Great. Ready? Hey, Smartless listeners. This episode is brought to you in part by our friends at Verizon. If you're wishing for the new iPhone 15 Pro with titanium, you don't need to find a genie in a bottle or, I don't know, steal an unsuspecting kid's birthday wish.

I get it, Sean. I get what you're doing there. Verizon is making it easy to get Apple's latest and greatest with an amazing trade-in offer. Even if your current iPhone has seen better days, me, my phone is pristine. But some of us just aren't as careful. No judgment here, though. Shot at you, Sean. That's I got it.

And you got another one coming up, too.

Yeah. Hey, look, Sean and I are well acquainted with the excellent service and offerings from Verizon. Believe me when I say this upgrade deal is one for the books.

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I just dropped Denny, sweet little Denny, who, as you know, is three off at school. And on the way there, he starts telling me this story. He's wearing a shirt and he's got an alien on it. He's going, I saw an alien. I said, You did? Yeah, last night. No kidding. Yes. And he go, Really? He goes, Yeah, I saw an alien. It was in our home. He was in our home? Yeah, and he was in the pot. He was next to the potty. I said, The alien used our potty? Yeah. He said, Did he go pee or poop? Did he go poop? He goes, No. He did a huge poop. I said, Really? So then he starts telling me this story and the alien ends up in the toilet and then they're kicking a soccer ball. I go, What color is a soccer ball? It's green, just the same as him and him family. I said, Okay. He tells this whole story. I go, So then I start every time I keep relaying it back to him, Let me get this straight. You see the alien, and by the third time I go, so let me get this straight.

The aliens in our bathroom. He goes, The end. He was.

Done with the story.

Okay. Then Jay, I start telling this story because he sees this building that one of the other boys, his buddy lives in. We start getting into friends and what's the name of Archie's friend and his mom? I said, What's the name of Maples's Daddy? He goes, Sean. I said, No, close. Yeah, might as well be. He goes, Jason. I said, Yeah, it's Jason. I don't believe it. I swear to God. We go and then Amanda and and Franny and blah, blah, blah, blah. I go, Yeah. Then I remember we were at our friend's house the other night for dinner and then Abel's other friend, and then he goes, I don't like your story. I like my story better. This is a fucking kid.

Right? It's a fucking kid.

I'm still believing that there's an alien in the bathroom.

I know.

Did you see the photos from...

Where was that? From Mexico? Yeah.

I mean- Yeah, are those real? I mean, they're obviously... Can't be real, but CBS and CNN and everyone's reporting them. I thought that was what News of the World used.

To do. Yeah. I can't believe that Sean's not doing this episode from Mexico City.

I'm just realizing.

That when I reboted right before we started recording, I lost all my questions for my guest.

No way.

Did.

You find them now?

It's.

Reboot nonsense. Why do you have more rebutes than anybody?

I don't know. I guess I'm technologically not gifted. I don't know what's going on. But you know what? I don't need them. I don't need them because where I'm deficient in technology, I am gifted in asking questions.

Not verbosity. Okay.

All right, here we come.

Here we go.

Do you want me.

To tell you another story? I do still have my intro. Sure. Sorry, Sean. Sorry, Sean. Are we on.

A- I was going to say, do you want me to tell you something while you look for.

Them or not? We can wait until we're done with your break.

Sean just found the drive-through for Cinnabon right around the corner from.

His house. Are we interrupting breakfast or anything?

Is.

A peanut butter and jelly sandwich?

No, it's a peanut butter sandwich.

By the way, listener, we're on a Zoom yesterday with about 20 people. And- Pout and cheese. Will asked Sean, Hey, Sean, it's about five o'clock. Are we close to dinner? He's like, Yeah, let's go in and see what's cooking. So he goes into the kitchen and there on the stove is, I forget what you were talking about, that it was some a fish thing, but there's like a bacon is being fried to contribute to the sauce. There's some a cheese dish that's- You guys.

Can see Jason's face right now.

I said, Do you have family over or friends or something? Or is it just Thursday?

Yeah, with a lot of food.

So you have a full meal.

Yeah, yeah.

That's the only meal. Multicourse meal every night.

Yeah, almost every night, yeah. But that's because I don't usually eat like fish or something healthy. I'll eat like something healthy-ish during the day so that I can have spaghetti and meat balls or.

Something at night. Do you put bacon in that, too?

No. Were you so worried about the health content of the fish that you had to throw the bacon at it? Yes, exactly. By the way, Jay, when was the last time we got an invite for a dinner? I mean, he has a nice meal every night.

I just figured you all want to go in your own corners.

You don't need to folksy that up to excuse your rudeness. Okay? Folksy. I'm so excited that we have one of the world's great talkers today. I'm introing my guest.

Okay.

This man is electric with his words, his guitar, and his charisma. Today's guest is one of the most famous and successful athletes alive today. When he played, he was as dominant as he was compelling. He was fiercely competitive and never boring. He has an unbelievable amount of trophies and records in his sport. But what he's done for the Caucasian afro and the on-court microphones will never be matched. Please welcome the winner of 17 Grand Slams a great guitarist, a good golfer, and a new friend of mine, the one and only John Mcenroe.

Oh, my gosh. Mr. Mcenroe.

Good.

Morning, John.

Very nice, Jason. Thank you. That's a.

Pretty good intro, right? I shortened it a little for you because I knew Will was going to go, It's Mcenroe. And he did. And he did. He beat me. It's a race with him.

He's bright. Once you said, once I knew about the Curly or the guitar, when did you say Grand Slams and guitar? I was like, yeah.

It's got to be that. I didn't know you play guitar. Hi, John. Nice to meet you.

Nice to meet you.

I.

Loved you, by the way, and I hadn't been to a play for years. Your performance was amazing.

You came to the show?

I did. I tried to come back to say hello. They wouldn't let me in.

No.

That's very you. Thank you, pal. Thank you for coming. I didn't.

Realize that they do that great of piano player, man. That was something at the end.

Wasn't that stunning?

Can you believe that he has talent?

I knew he had talent, but that was off the charts.

That's very sweet.

Thank you. Classically trained pianoist. Never knew it.

But this is about Mr. Macarone. Thank you, John.

For coming on the show. This is about Mr. Macinow. Now, John, do you play piano as well as guitar? No.

I do not. Although, Jimmy Webb, who is a famous songwriter and pianist, tried to teach me to guitar a couple of times. We traded tennis lessons for piano lessons. Yeah.

And it just it wasn't for you. It's easier on the fingertips.

Isn't it? I love the piano, but I prefer the guitar. I try to get all my kids to play piano. They did, but they didn't stick with it. I said, stick with it. It'll be good for you. Maybe someday you'll be on Broadway kicking Ass.

Winning Tones.

But no.

Yeah, exactly. Maybe someday you'll be wearing two compression sleeves and icing your fingers.

Every.

Night.

Exactly. John, doesn'tthe guitar, don't the guitar strings hurt your fingertips? That was my.

Problem with it. They do. And also, could you ever get carpal tunnel or any tendinitis?

I've been lucky, actually. I probably don't play enough to get carpal tunnel, but I've had you got to build up the calluses like you're doing with my tennis hand. You had to do the same thing when you grip a racquet. So that takes a while, but I got over that. At least this is one of the few things I'm improving at, a guitar playing.

Did you ever get tennis elbow?

I was about to ask.

The same. Generally speaking, I had issues at times with the elbow, but never real bad.

How about golf elbow? Have you been-.

I've not had golf elbow. I just have why am I playing this dumbass game sometimes? Elbow.

No, John, that's not true. You're a good golfer. We played a couple of times. Not unlike what you said about guitar, I feel like you're getting better at golf. I feel like you're more consistent. I've seen you missed some short puts. Sure. Wait, do.

You guys always play together?

We have played a couple of times. I have a video currently on my phone of John missing a put on the ninth hole over at our place there, and he fell to the ground.

And took off all his clothes.

And protested. That happens every time I play.

I don't like how much time you're spending in New York, though. It's not great for our golf outings.

Well, sometimes, Jason, I do have to work. Yeah, man. The US Open was the big one for us and hometown is great. But we missed you well at Augusta, though.

I know. I wish I could have, as you knew, a dear friend of mine passed away, so I couldn't make it. But we're going to do it again, same crew, and we're going to do it up and get down there. I'm so excited.

Now also what's keeping you in New York is your great tennis academy. That started when?

I would say about 12 years ago. In the last 10 of which we've also started a charity arm, which is called the Johnny Mac Tennis Project, which is we're constantly trying to raise money so we can get more kids to play this great sport. It's too unaffordable. It's not accessible enough. It's too expensive, especially in New York. So it's an ongoing battle, but we're making progress.

If somebody wanted to contribute to that, how would they go about doing something like that?

It's a 501(c)(3) go on the web and internet and go to Johnny Mac Tennis Project, and anything you can give would be incredible. But we just had a Pro-Am, and we do a comedy night every year, which is great.

But you're- Jason should give 10 grand. Jason, give 10 grand.

Right now. I'll give 10 grand right now. Sean and Will, are you going to match me? Let's go. That's 30 right there, John.

Come on, boys. Come on. You're breaking up.

You're breaking up. But your tennis academy was- Sean's going through a can. Your tennis academy is charitable in concept. You're already doing charity work there, basically, or philanthropic work, where you are identifying kids that wouldn't otherwise maybe be drawn to tennis or have access to tennis and you're giving them that, right? Through scholarships and whatnot?

Absolutely. And we have a lot of programs. We go to public schools and we bring them in. But this is also a for-profit place. I work for someone. This is city-owned land, and the people put $20 million into it. We're putting an additional 15 to add another 10 courts. Wow. So this is an incredible place, but at the same time, there's 90 %, I'd say, of the people or people that went to schools like I went to high school, the Ivy League high schools that pay the bills, they come and play once or twice a week so that we have a chance to do enough and raise enough that we can get the one %. Unfortunately, what? 99 % can't afford it. 90 %.

What was that like, John, for you, speaking of high school? Because I know now, again, please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that kids who played tennis when they were growing up and they were young, the idea of going to all tennis academy started with nick Bolaterry. Is that right? Sort of that dedicated thing where the kid you started to hear about. But for guys like you who were right before that, right before that generation, were you playing tennis every day on Long Island or Queens? What was that like for you?

I grew up in Queens. The best thing that ever happened to me was not going to a volatile type camp. I would have quit the game when I was 16 or 17. I love to play other sports. All studies show both physically and mentally, it's healthier for kids to play other sports. It's an idea that you got to go all in in soccer, basketball is a bunch of... Can you say bullshit on this? You can say that. Total BS.

You can say fucking bullshit.

Beautiful. I'll get to that shortly when you ask me a lousy question.

I got one for you.

But the truth is that what I base my beliefs on or what this academy is all about, that you should play other sports, and you should come to this a little later. Tennis players are peaking later than they ever did. I think college is an experience that not only you get to play as a team, potentially if you're in a sport, but you get to grow up a little bit and also have some fun before you work your way into a profession, and you'll be more prepared to handle it. I completely disagree with what they do most often.

Right. Because, John, the idea that not just as an athlete, but also as a person, as a human being, if you come in and you turn pro when you're 17 or something, and maybe you have success, again, like you said, you're not peaking yet, but you have success, all that pressure, everything that goes along with that, the traveling, being away from home, being away from family, your support group, it seems to me, especially for tennis, it'd be pretty tough to deal with all that if you were young.

For every person you hear that succeeds, there's a million that don't. Not everyone's Carlos Alcaraz. He's won in a billion. He's just a freak. He's an incredible player. But most kids have no business doing that. In college now, it's become more competitive, and now they can offer money, which was unheard of. You could actually go after a guy and offer him something.

For the NIL stuff?

The NIL stuff. I mean, most obviously is going to football and basketball, but at least allows kids that otherwise would have nothing in college to think, Maybe I should wait a couple of years.

John, why do you attribute, like you talk about Al Kharous, like these guys are hitting the ball? Who is it? The Medvedev that played him right? They hit the ball so hard. I have to... It's not.

Like- Not.

Like us. No, but I mean like-.

Yeah, way to insult John.

No, I'm just.

Saying like- We were dinosaurs.

Well, but you guys were every bit as big and as strong. Is it just the racquet? I mean, you guys were playing, I can't believe what you were able to do with the size of the racquet that you guys were playing with.

Why? Is it bigger now?

Oh, yeah. It's bigger now, wider now. It's lighter now. The whole thing.

That's what I played with till I was 23, which is about you add another 40 %. That's the difference in power and the size of it. So the sweet spot's a lot bigger. So that's allowed kids at my academy, I'm at my academy right now that 12, 14-year-olds hit the ball harder than me.

John just showed us his wood and rat. Did you win Wimbledon with that racquette? That racquette?

I did. I'm one of the only records I still have, and I think I will always have it, is I'm the last male player to win a major with a wooden racquette.

What if somebody made a storm, came back onto the scene with one of those rackets? How long do you think they'd last? You just can't compete with one.

Of those, right?

If you played one event, Carlos Alcaraz could play with anything.

He is an amazing player. What about Fedar? Who's game? Fedar? Yeah, Fedar, it seemed to me had such... And I remember I've over the years watched a lot of matches of his that you've called many, many. You really liked the way he played, his style and his... He was so graceful. I don't know. How would you describe it?

He's the most beautiful player I've ever seen. I idolized Rod Laver. He was an awesome. He's like the bridge in a calf of tennis, as I would describe him. Where you look atCoffee on the dial. That's not your typical or prototypical tennis player, his body. He looked a lot bigger up top. When we grew up, they were like, don't lift. You don't want to.

Get too big up here. No, Jason got that same memo.

I was like, don't worry.

Who do you think you'd match up best with today? Like another lefty?

No. You mean who would I play like? Or who would.

I match up with? Yeah. If apples were to apples today, as far as age goes and equipment goes, who do you think you'd have the most- Success. The most entertaining match with?

Well, the dream would be to play Roger Federnick at Wimbledon. The nightmare would be to play Rafael Nadella at Roland Garos on Clay, even though I grew up on Clay, and that was my best surface, so I turned pro. But what he did was insane.

Why don't people still serve in Volley like you used to? I used to find that so fun. I feel like Becker was the last one to do it, right?

That's correct. They changed the court speeds. They slowed it down at Wimbledon. They did the same at the Indian Wells or the US Open. Actually, US Open is fairly quick. So you're seeing it come back a little bit with Alcares, and people always imitate the top guys. But the explosion necessary to come in point after point, I don't think people realize that takes a physical toll. Right. Of course. So it's easier to serve big. These guys are bigger. Mevodev's 6-6. The average player has gone from what I would- He's 6-6? He's 6-6. So the average player has gone from 5-10, 5-9-10 to 6-2, 6-3 even. Joe Kevich is 6-2 and a half. Murray, 6-3. It used to be 6-1. That would be Sampris, Federnadal. But players are getting more athletic, taller. So if you combine it with these rackets, the ball's coming back faster, unless you stand 20 feet beyond the baseline like Medvedev. Yeah, that was amazing. And so it's tougher to get close to the net.

Right.

We'll be right back. Big thanks to ZIPrecuder for their support. Guys, you know who I'm grateful for? The two guys listening right now recording this for me. I love them very much, Bennett and Rob. They're like my family. We couldn't do this show without them. And every single day I say a prayer for them, and I love them. And I have photos of them on my refrigerator. We love you too, Johnny. Thank you. Love you, Sean. Thank you. It takes a team of people to make this show successful, just like it takes a solid team to make any business successful. So if you're hiring, how do you find the best people for your team? Ziprecruiter. Right now you can try it for free at zipprecruoter. Com. Com/smartlist. Here's why you'll be grateful you tried ZIPrecruiter for your hiring. Ziprecruiter uses smart technology to scan thousands of resumes to find the most qualified people for your job. For these two, we went through thousands of resumes and nobody was interested. And we landed, and I mean, landed on these two.

We still love you, Sean.

Wow, that was a wet one right through the microphone. You'll also get great match notifications. Zip Recruiter lets the most qualified people for your job know they are a great match for it and encourages them to apply. See why so many business owners and hiring managers are thankful for ZIP Recruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZIP Recruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. We'd be super grateful if you could go to this exclusive web address right now to try ZIPrecutor for free, zipprecutor. Com/smartness. Again, that's zipprecutor. Com/s-m-a-r-t-l-e-s-s. Zipprecutor, the smartest way to hire.

Hey, gang, Jason here. November is Diabetes Awareness Month, a time to bring attention to diabetes. Let's talk a little bit about that. Managing diabetes requires a lot of effort, and unfortunately, a lot of people living with it don't feel understood because not many people know what it really takes to manage the condition. Well, that's where Medtronic diabetes comes in. Medtronic makes devices to manage diabetes, and they're very passionate about supporting the community, which is why they've launched their Blue Balloon challenge to raise awareness. The Balloon represents the mental load and constant decision making that people living with diabetes are faced with. It's a constant balancing act trying to keep blood sugars in range while living their life. Medtronic diabetes wants you to join the challenge and help them spread awareness and support for the diabetes community. Grab a Blue Balloon and try to keep it in the air while doing everyday things in your life. Tag Medtronic diabetes on social media and use the #Blueballoon challenge. We can all come together to help make the invisible visible. Visit medtronicdiabetes. Com/smartness to learn more. That's medtronicdiabetes. Com/smartness. All right, back to the show.

You know what's funny? You're talking about these guys who are coming on the scenes, Alcatraz, as I call them, because I just put a twist on it. You know what I mean, Jay? You're amazing, man. Sean's not with me. You talked.

About- You talked about- -I'm with you.

Sean, just stay down. You're talking about these new guys who come on. Alcatraz has come on the last two years, and he's just been an absolute... He's exploded seemingly out of nowhere. I mean, for us, I'm not a huge... I don't follow the minuteiae of tennis, but-.

Well, he's number one.

Of the world. No, he is now. I'm just saying before I didn't watch, I didn't know that he was the guy who was in the pipeline who was coming. All of a sudden, he was there and he was incredible. But John, you did the same thing. What I'm getting to is I remember distinctly, I remember being up in Northern Canada watching you and Bioren Borg play in those unbelievable, when I was a kid, those unbelievable matches from Wimbledon. Everybody's like, Who's this guy? And you know all this stuff. He was like, He's brash. He's from New York. He doesn't give a shit. He won Wimbledon, and then he fucking went and got pizza with his pals. I still remember that story.

I partyed the pretenders. You partied with the pretenders.

You've partied with them, right?

Really? Among other people.

But the afro and the headband, though, was just so hostile.

Wait, I want to hear about partying with the.

Pretenders, with Chris. Who would you rather party with? A bunch of old farts? The dinner that we weren't sure I had to go to were some rock stars. So I don't think that was a tough one. For sure. I went to Wimbledon when I was 18. I was sent to play the juniors, and I broke through and qualified and made it to the semies of the main draw, and that completely changed my life. I didn't realize what Wimbledon meant, except when I saw the guy you mentioned, my great rival, Bion Borg, and I remember seeing him play a few matches when I was 15 before I played there, and hundreds of girls ran on the court and it was like, Oh, my God. This is like tennis's version of Beatle Mania. I go, I want to be a tennis player. Somehow I got to get some of that. And then I want to just mention this because to practice what I preach, which is I actually went to college after that. I played professionally all through the summer. I was 21 in the world when I entered Stanford. Wow. That's crazy. It's unheard of if anyone's even above 500.

I felt like I wasn't ready emotionally and wanted to experience being part of a team and going to Stanford. I think that was good for me in my career as it ended up. Then you fast forward a couple of years, those are the matches where I played Borg two years in a row, '80, '81.

Incredible.

And so that was the greatest, a great time for tennis. I was lucky. I came into what turned out to be a really important time where tennis was really growing. I mean, if you had told me that golf without rate tennis, the way it does now is on the networks, I would laugh at you in the '80s. And so we haven't done nearly enough as a sport. We had the same ratings as basketball. I mean, it's absurd how far we've gone the wrong with pickleball. If I hear a pickleball one more goddamn time, I'm going to throw up.

That was my question.

I'm with you on the Pickleball thing.

Yeah, that's your cue, Sean. Go for it, buddy. I was just going.

To say, Pickleball thoughts.

But you.

Play a different pickleball.

Oh, boy.

Joe, I played tennis. Me and Andre Agassie played along with Michael Chang was on my team in Andy Rodik. It was like tennis players playing. It wasn't as painful as having to put up with some old college player who didn't make it in tennis, and now is one of the best pickleball players in the world. And it's a whistleball.

I.

Ever played a whistleball outside? And when you're a kid growing up? I did in Queens. It's not the same as baseball.

No, it's trash. I think it's total trash. I used to play paddle tennis in the beaches in Venice for years. That's a better game. At least you play with the tennis ball that's had the air taken out of it. But the fucking pickleball, I'm sick of it. I like pickleball. I like it. Oh, of course you do. It's like when people start getting the racquabal, fat guys can stand in the middle and they don't even have to fucking walk.

You were watching with racquabal.

Pickleball is the fucking same. You don't have to do shit.

I understand. San Fernando Valley is incredible.

Everyone calm down.

I can't wait. I can't wait till these fucking rich assholes have to pave over their stupid. What was that over there? We have a fucking...

We have a.

Dead-pull-in-pull-in-pickleball court. I'll tell you who the happiest people around are, the doctors, because a lot of people have played. It's better to do something than nothing. So I'll go with that.

I did legs yesterday. What's that? I worked on my.

Legs yesterday. That means he squatted down to the stove, opened it up, pulled the pie out, started.

He had.

A good meal. He had to put his feet around a fucking huge... He had a 10-pound bag of checksmix, and he had to use his feet to hold the ground as he opened it.

John, talk about what... I mean, obviously, winning, this is for the folks out there that don't play tennis, but something that you could talk to them about that's applicable. The gain you'd get from winning versus losing, because everybody has experience with winning and losing, you probably had to develop a muscle early on that could turn a negative into a positive and try to gain from it. Was losing.

A.

Tangible gain for you at times that you can speak about?

Well, obviously, as a father of six and having grown up being told that losing builds character and you learn more from losing than you do with winning, that there was something that was ingrained in me at a young age. And I do believe that it's true that you can take a step back and that it does help you in a lot of ways, not just on a tennis court. So that's what I try to tell the kids that are at my academy, try to nurture them. It's hard, though, because you feel like the last place you want to be is on a tennis court when you're getting your ass kicked by someone. Yeah, nowhere to hide. Especially if you ever got to the stage where you're playing at US Open in Arthur S. Stadium, which would be like a dream come true for any professional tennis player, and then you get toasted by someone. My problem was that at a certain point in my career, I think late 20s, I started getting more fearful of losing and not embracing the idea that you need to learn from it, as opposed to facing up to it, and that hurt me.

I felt like I was a lesser player from that point forward. I had more of a fear, a fear and a fear of failure gotten away a little bit too much. You always have to battle that as well.

Did you end up getting on top of that? Or is that still something that... Do you take that on the golf course? You take that into experimenting with music? Have you gotten on top of it and factor in losing as an acceptable result?

I go by the belief now that it's better to try and fail than not try at all. Early on when I was doing commentary, I stopped playing. Boy, it was like 30 years ago. The main tour I played a chance to be on the champion seniors tour for 25 more years. But at that time, I started to get some positive feedback about my commentary. At a certain stage, people would come up to me, You're a better commentator than we're a player, and I'm like, Bullshit. Okay? That's fucking bullshit. It would really make me angry for quite a long time, for years. And then I thought to myself, I took a step back once, and I said, Wait, wait a minute. They think I'm a better commentator than I was a player.

They never saw you play.

Well, that would be one possibility. Or else, hey, maybe I am a pretty damn good commentator, and I should take that as a compliment. You should. And I have. But it took a long time. I guess it would be the long answer to your question, was that it took a lot of experiences that you referred to. The love of music as a hobby, getting a second chance with second marriage that worked out far better than the first, trying to be the proper role model as best as possible for my kids as often as possible. I got six kids between my two marriages, appreciating life that I've been pretty damn lucky. That's what I try to get back at my academy. And even what I do with commentary work and around the players that I'll do next week when I go to Laver Cup, which is our version of the Ryder Cup, and try to just be around the guys. And if I can help them that little bit, 5 %, 10 %, that could make the difference, hopefully. So I've got a much better attitude than I did, although I think that some of the things that I used to hide my fear of failure, which was showing anger instead of sitting there, start crying.

I.

Don't think we were brought up to be, Let's cry, on the tennis court. A lot of that time that was manifested and turning into anger. God forbid, I thought I had a decent sense of humor, and I would think of something funny that was going on the court, but I felt like when I grew up, it was like, you got to keep intense. You'll lose your edge if you do anything. Now you see guys that are out there like Fedor. I was like, How the hell does this guy look like he's so happy to be out there? Alkara, the guy's smiling. Just wait. Just give it a couple of years. You'll be miserable like the rest of us.

I watched you, I think we talked about this once, I feel like, John, I wish that you would commentate on other sports because I know you're a big sports fan. I'm like, I wish you would go on and commentate on football and basketball and hockey. That would be... Have you ever thought about that? Didn't you say once you were going to or you did do it for basketball?

It's like a Simon, like Payton and Eli do.

I did Payton and Eli just this past Monday.

Yeah. They don't count. Payton and Eli don't count.

They're pretty damn good at basketball. I love those guys. Actually, last year when I saw it, I was like, Oh, my God. This is absolutely perfect for me and my brother to do on the tennis. Unleash us. Let us do it. Oh, the guy. It's already been done. What? Okay, so what? You're not working.

Proof of concept. And as far as answering your question, yes, a few years back, I was going to do a Knicks game. Unfortunately, my dad passed away literally right around that time, so it wasn't able to happen. There was a time, I don't know if you remember this, it was probably 15 years ago, Dennis Miller ended up getting the job, but they said, Monday night football, they want someone who's not a football player. And they want to maybe bring in three or four guys for three or four games each. And I go, Oh, my God, that's absolutely perfect. This would be unbelievable because I love sports, like you said, and I'm no football expert, but I know enough about it to at least give my two cents like a fan. And then I called my agent, and he was like, They went with Dennis Miller. I go, What did they say when you mentioned my name? I didn't mention it. I didn't think you get it. I'm like, What?

Whatyeah, you got a.

Deal on him, huh? So he was done. Even though he helped me, actually, with the TV deal. I'm like, What are you doing? But I'm not saying I would have gotten it anyway. But now, of course, you feel like in a certain way, I don't want to be walk in and be like, Yeah, here I am. I can do football and some football player who wants a job and needs it. I feel a little weird about that. So maybe the talk show format, what I was going to do radio.

I loved your talk show, by the way. You should do that again.

Thank you for both. You both came on it. It was awesome. It was 19 years ago. Unbelievable. Oh, my God. That was.

Great. That was right when CNBC got started, right? Wasn't CNBC?

Yeah, they wanted to do. As a matter of fact, I followed Dennis Miller, and they were trying to get... Usually people turn off CNBC at four.

O'clock, right? Tom Snyder and Charles.

Broden, too. Yeah, Sean, you should know when John did his program, our mutual, but all four of us know Meredith. Walker? Yeah. Meredith Walker, yeah. Who worked for John.

I didn't know that.

I love Meredith. And that's how we ended up doing it. I still got the bracket that you gave everybody who was a guest, the signed bracket, Dunlock bracket, I.

Got a - Then just you guys.

Oh, shit.

Just us? Not me. I'll check the.

Mail again. John, these guys know I'm fascinated by medicine and medical things. Whenever an athlete comes, I always ask what's the worst injury? Because the repetitiveness, like Jason was talking about earlier, about just the repetitiveness nature of, especially tennis, of the constant back and forth. What was your worst injury and what did you to take care of it? Because it is like theater, I know these guys joke, but it is every single day doing the same movements over and over again takes a toll on your body. So how did you play for so many years? What was your regimen like if you got hurt?

Well, first of all, I'm a knock on wood because I'm pretty lucky. I've never had a surgery. Amazing. So that already is lucky. When you hear these horror stories of the football players, I remember they asked Joe Montana recently, Who's the greatest quarterback ever? He said, Damn, Moreno. They go, You don't mean like Tom braided or Patrick Holmes? And how would it be different for you? And he was like, Because they protect the quarterback more. Twenty-seven surgeries later, he's had. John Elwis had 27 to-30 surgeries. These poor souls take way more of a beating. The worst injury I ever had, I tore my hamstring. This was in the senior store, not the main store. Then you have chronic shoulder problems. I've tore my meniscus twice the last five years without... I didn't do surgery, and I recovered. But I was fortunate. I was taught in a way that it didn't put a lot of strain on my body. Look at Nedal, the way he swings at everything. It's like the home run swing. I think that you're more likely to get hurt.

He did get injured, right? For a period there that wasn't he quite-.

He's been injured a handful of times, but he's got a great team around him that keeps him going. I don't know how he still does it at his age, but he's had numerous injuries. Boris Becker's had 12 surgeries. A lot of guys have a lot of surgeries, and it's cost them hips is the worst part. I think the hip is the thing I've struggled with the most, and it's all connected, obviously. Mainly when I was younger and most successful was pretty much tennis. You do running, sprinting, that type of stuff. Not a lot of weight work. I played doubles, which no one does anymore. And as I started doing weights, I actually didn't help me in off-court training. I just enjoyed to work out to generally try to keep reasonably fit. I've been pretty fortunate all in all compared to.

Most people. You've got to be the only uber-champion of any sport that has never had a surgery. That's amazing. That's a new record by itself. That's unbelievable.

To me. You and Cal Ripken.

No, I bet you Cal.

Ripken's been cut. I've had 17 myself.

I'm the only person ever that reached number one in the world who has the same size arm, left arm, as right arm. I used to try to copy Rod Laver because his arm was like Popeye. And I was like, Popeye. I would squeeze balls hours and hours a day when I was a kid and do anything I could do to... Well- Will's got jokes. I'm not even going where you're going. I've just.

Got jokes.

I'm just saying it's nice that you can now Sean can finally relate.

Yeah.

Sure.

I'm just.

Saying- Squeeze balls and I just perk up.

But most athletes, anyone, especially if you're doing something with one arm 95 % of the time or more, I had a one handed backhand. I could not figure out why nothing changed. So it's bizarre. Yeah, that's wild. But the body was pretty resilient all in all.

I played tennis off and on, and I don't really play that much anymore, but I used to, and I used to love playing for various stages. I always prided myself on having one handed backhand because I grew up in an era when everybody wanted to have like in the '80s, everybody was trying to get that two-handed, backhand and pinch rackets and all that shit. I was like, no, I want to play a more graceful game. Anyway, I just want to say I think you'd really approved my backhand, John. Go ahead, Jason.

The bad news is that if I had a young kid now and said, should you do one or two? I would tell them two.

Of course. It's more-.

The way they hit off the back foot more, and obviously, you can take balls up higher, especially when you're younger, but even as you're older because you do so much that it makes more sense to use the two hands. It's actually better for you physically because you're using both sides of the body more.

Just doesn't look as cool. The other thing is one hand back and it looks so graceful. But I will say it's funny if all the years of playing and taking tennis lessons when I was a kid and whatever, then when you watch these guys, the way they play now, I'm like, What game are they playing? Because the way they hit their body, where they're at with relation to the ball, their grip now, all that stuff is so different.

Absolutely. I played with one grip. Now these guys have huge changes on their back and their fore hand grip. They seem to do it effortlessly. It's like learning a language. If you learn the language, it's a lot easier when you're young.

They're moving the racquet as they play.

That's funny. What did I see during the US Open? One of the players actually took his racquet, walked it up to his coach, handed it to him, and asked him to restring it while he continued playing with a different racquet.

Well, they bring six or eight rackets on the court, and they're always complaining like the coach is fucked up. It's their fault. You got to blame someone other than yourself. So you give it to him. You told me it should be 52. Get that fucking thing and put it at 48.

But did you ever hand a racket to a coach and ask him to restring it during one of your matches? No.

First of all, I didn't travel with the coach back when I played. But second of all, I brought six rackets in a bag, but I'd have four different tensions to have available in case it was humid, in case the ball was flying, heavy, whatever. These seem to bring all these same tension, which I don't quite understand. And the stringers are like millionaires now. We didn't restring rackets every five seconds. These guys, string rackets, I remember Sampriss, he broke out six rackets to a practice session. He used one of them for like an hour, and then he'd go, All right, Mac, I'm done. And I go, Okay. And then he'd give the string a restring all six. I go, why are you restringing all six? You didn't even use five of them.

Why do you think most sports are more tolerant of players having outbursts than tennises? I feel like you got the short string on that to go back to strings. Obviously, things are a bit... It's more accepted now, but at the time, people were looking at you like, Oh, my God. What is he doing complaining about that call? It's so not okay. Now other sports, it's fine. Why is that?

Well, first of all, if you put a microphone in the middle of the field in a football game, something tells me they're not saying hello. How are you? How good. And basketball, they control it. In baseball, we used to love when the manager would go up to the umpark, kick dirt in his pants. That was incredible. Then I go out there and I go, You missed a call. And I'm like, Tiller the hunt, all of a sudden. Yeah.

And we will be right back.

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How do you like that new thing now? Am I wrong or there are no more Empires calling lines? It's now Computer, yet they put in a speaker of somebody, like an audio of somebody saying out or whatever, right? It's new. It's automated.

Now, isn't it? I don't mean to be a cynic, but I'd like to know how accurate it was. But having said that, it is actually, if you knew that you had to have a chance to double-check a call, I went to Wimbledon the first year I played there, and I'm playing a match, and I look over and the guy's sleeping, one of the linesmen, and I'm like, He's probably seeing the ball better now that.

He's asleep because.

They.

Can't see a damn thing.

I always dreamed about being one of those guys.

Did you?

As a kid, I'd watch tennis and I'd watch you and I'd be like, I want to be the kid who runs across and catch that ball.

Oh, the Ball Boy. That's a.

Cool- It's actually a tough gig to get, apparently.

I Ball Boyed for a handful of years at the US Open, so now you get close to it.

It's awesome. At Forest Hills? At Forest Hills. The old Forest Hills.

And by the way, to answer your question, the electronic equipment, I would have been... You see, my hair might have been closer to your color, Jason, or Will, and I would have won more, but maybe I wouldn't have been on your amazing podcast. That's true. You still would be. So I got to look at the bright side that-.

Your game was better than your outburst. I would.

Have been.

More boring. No, your game was better than your outburst. Did you ever look back on some of those old freakouts that you had outburst over a call, and that turned out you were right? Were you right like a hundred % of the time?

That's what I tell myself. Something tells me it might not have been quite a hundred %, but there was that call, the ball was in. Chalk flew up. I did that one. And 30 years later, we literally did it last year. I played the... Or it was two years ago because it was '81 that it happened. The guy that I was playing against came on ESPN and said John was right. The ball did hit the line. Chalk did fly up. And I just was like, Yes. It took 30 years before, but the vindication, finally. Not that I'm worse than Jack the Ripper.

So in Wimbledon, you can challenge a call because there's still people calling the lines. But the US Open, it's automated, right?

That's correct. It's going to be all automated within a few years.

I think baseball is doing the same thing.

Are they? Because if you played baseball, just think about this, and the Empire calls a ball that's clearly outside the plate. Why is that a strike? I don't give a damn who you are. It's the plate.

Yeah.

Exactly. But meanwhile, they're like, Well, that's the umpire. He's given the pitcher a little extra, a couple extra inches. Why? Would be my question.

Yeah, it should be without opinion or nuance. Let me.

Say this, and this might be controversial. I'm serious. I felt like with all the instant replay and shit, especially when you have VAR and soccer, which every goal they look at, I feel like it's taken a little bit of... It's not opinion, it's just nuance. And human error should be part of everything. I liked it. It made a story when they get the wrong call.

That's drama. I'll tell you, if you're on the wrong side of it, if you're on the wrong side of it, then it's like, why is that a part of the game? Why shouldn't that stuff be taken out? And what is left is just pure execution by the athletes.

I think that what you're saying about the human element, there's some truth to that. But as an ex-athlete, if you know that the call could be corrected properly, and that could be the difference between winning Wimbledon and losing, that would be hard to argue if you're an athlete at any point to say that you.

Should have that. I totally get that. And obviously, I'm not an athlete. And so I can see the injustice of it.

So wait, so Jason, in baseball, they would just get rid of the.

Empire then? No, the Empire would still be there to make a call as it plays on the plate. I'm not.

Positive about this- And to sweep the plate.

Yeah, you need to.

Sweep.

The.

Plate. John, let me ask you something about, and we've asked other folks that are incredible champions that are no longer playing their sport, where they scratched that old itch of competition and challenging yourself and seeing what you got week in and week out. Was that something that was an easy adjustment for you? Is it a current adjustment for you? Where do you sit with all that?

Actually, it's a constant thing, and I've tried to taper off slowly. What happens if no one wanted me to play tennis anymore? I've been asked this a lot. Do you love tennis? And my answer to it is, I don't know if I love it because I've never played it where I played it for nothing. I'm still asked, believe it or not, and I hope that it never gets to that point, by the way, that I have to play for nothing. But if I do, you'd have a better idea how much you still want to be part of it. But I've learned over time that you're always going to be, I'll speak for myself, very competitive, but I'm not as competitive as I was when I was playing. It's not the end-all-be-all. As much as I like to beat you that second 18 at Augusta when you came on and shot at an '80 or 81 or whatever it was, and I was flailing and hitting balls in the water. I'm like, try to get a little perspective here, John. Life's pretty good. Will couldn't make it because his buddy passed away and saying, all things considered.

How lucky are we? That type of thing. Again, I know you guys have kids. I have six. If I'm sitting there telling my kids, I should have won the French. I should have done this. Why didn't I do that? And then I still want to beat their ass on a basketball or tennis court. I think that would be the wrong message to be sending to my kids or the kids at my academy.

Are you kids in sports?

It depends how loosely you define sports. They did play high school basketball and high school tennis, and one of my boys played college for a year. Nice. But you need that fire in the belly if you really wanted to do it in a serious way. I don't know. I think I love my kids, and thankfully, knock on wood they're doing well, all of them right now. But they had a little bit, and this is my fault, what you call affluency. Yeah, sure. Maybe they're that hunger that maybe you need to succeed at a professional level.

Sean's got that hunger, that fire in the belly. But it's for a footlong sub.

But John, your kids, like everyone else on the planet, always is probably looking for something that they fit with and can Excel in or at least put themselves in a situation to see what they've got. And it sounds like while it was pretty clear what you had with tennis, Father clock or Father time doesn't stop, sorry. And everybody ages out of everything. It sounds like you have found the other things that you can see what have I got. You become like, the best advertiser ever in tennis and will probably be equally good in any other sport. Your philanthropy, your parenting, your music, stuff like that. It sounds like you are, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like you aresated, right? I mean, you're not hungry for arenas to see what you've got.

No, I feel like I've worked at this for 40 years, literally. I feel like I've found that sweet spot and been able to appreciate more the things that I enjoy doing and want to do them as often as possible. One of the reasons why I love commentary work still is I only were doing the majors. I didn't want to go on tour and do it all the time. So I get super pumped up for the eight weeks of the majors, do some stuff here and there, maybe ten weeks. I was still playing because there's never anything that will duplicate being on the center court at Wimbledon, but still going out and competing. I played the seniors to her. They have it in golf, obviously. It's harder than other sports. But I did that for 25 years. I made it close to 60. So I'm sitting there going, Man, you got to look at the bright side in this one. So whatever comes your way, if someone at some point it's like, Who's that guy? I didn't think I'd get the gig as a narrator of a show, Never Have I Ever, where I'm like the psychologist for a high school Indian-American girl trying to figure out a way in her school.

Right. I didn't see that one coming. And part of the reason I'm going to throw this in, I was asked to be the commencement speaker at Stanford this year, which turned out I was the first athlete in 120 years that did it. Wow. I was the Stanford dropout. The Stanford class presidents talked to me. They were like, One of the big reasons why we picked you because you were a narrator on Never Have I Ever. I'm like, What?

You.

Got.

To be.

Kidding me. That's the truth. You never know. No. Who would have thought? No, we believe it. Thank you, Mindy Cayley.

Yeah, no, no, no. But look, I understand that we never thought that we'd be doing this thing, this podcast. Before three years ago, it was just like on the lark. Now this is like a big part of our lives, and it's fucking crazy. It's crazy. John, two things I want to know. First of all, right off the top of my head, where you stand currently on it, I don't think you're still in Doris, but you had some of the greatest Sergio Tequini tracksuits, warmups of all time. And where you stand on the Sergio, the Cucunis. Did you have any of those great, beautiful zip-ups left? I mean, they're incredible.

Yeah, Sergio, the Cucunis back in the day, Fila, Alessio were the best. They're quality, made in Italy.

I've got some nice Alessio.

By the way, I'm the longest serving. I'm still, believe it or not, Phil Knight still has me under contract with Nike. I've been signed with them since May of 1978, so I'm 45 years. That's so good. Wow.

When is the next Mcinrow tennis shoe coming out?

It came out. I just did a little spot. It's on the internet. Check it out. Me and Travis Scott. Oh, God. Wait. Because he loves that my old sneaker was called the Mac attack. So it's being reintroduced.

Go ahead, Will. John, your first one was the Macinrow Allcourt, right?

Was that the first one? It was over the Wimbledon. It was the original version of Stan Smith, what he did with the D-ness. Then I went to the three quarters, which was actually like a rocket ball, which now everyone pretty much uses, and then the Mac attack. So it was nice that they reintroduced that, and Travis Scott apparently takes a sneaker like that and puts a little of his own touch on it or does something a little differently. And unbelievably, more people are asking me about that than almost anything else. So it's crazy. They want to do another one with me and Travis Scott. I'm like, Does he know why I think he wants to- He should do a.

Golf shoe. Yeah, do a golf shoe with him too.

I don't know. I'm open for suggestions.

John, can we do the Smartness Mcinro golf shoe? Can we do this?

There we go. A little collab.

Let's do that.

Before we let you go, what's the thing that people will be most surprised that you do. We know about tennis, we know about music, know about golf. Is there a hobby that you just can't live without? Or a little pastime? Even if it's just watching TV or maybe even reading? Will, still likes to read about World War II. A lot of.

People don't know that.

A lot of people don't. I'm pretty much an open book, more or less. What you see is what you get. I do have a passion. Thankfully, I love music. It keeps me humble in a way because I've obviously been around so many great rock guys and seen so many shows, and I was just like, who the hell? My marriage.

Are incredible things.

She said to me way back when I said, because she was disillusioned, she had sold a couple of million records, but it felt like she was treated fairly enough as a woman, and she was disillusioned. So I'm coming in and I'm like, Hey, why don't we have a band together? I'll join your band. I've got a lot of energy. And she goes, Yeah, we should play mix doubles at Wimbledon also.

I.

Go, You don't play tennis. And she goes, Exactly. That was 28 or nine years ago. So it's kept me my perspective there. I still love it. I try to be less, I guess one thing that would be different is that I try to be less competitive.

Actually.

Because you look at me and the way I played, and obviously the people saw that I was pretty competitive. So if God forbid I don't scream or fall over on the golf course, they're upset at me now. You guys say like, We're not going to invite you to Bel Air unless you fall over, at least once you scream and skip Bronson.

We only mentioned skip every fourth episode. Do you know, John, I will say this. This is not a question, it's a compliment of all the times I've met you over the last 20 years, you're so consistently yourself. I think that it really shows, and like you said, what you see is what you get. That's true. You're an authentic guy, and you really are you. Whether you're talking to the biggest rock star or you're talking to the guy who's bringing you your car, you're the exact same dude. And I think it speaks a lot to your character. It's advertising.

I appreciate that. You're not doing a thing. You enjoy being you, and that's infectious.

I do. And I want to thank my wife, Patty Smyth, because the greatest thing you can have in a relationship, it's been 29 years now. That's so cool. Is to let the person be the person you want to be. And she's allowed me to do that. So love you, baby. Thank you, Will.

I appreciate it. Hey, what band are you loving listening to right now?

Off the top of your head. I'm more of like the grunge guy. I'm looking for new stuff.

Wait, Grunch. So you're into Pearl Jam and Sound Garden and.

Allison Chains. I'm going to go see those Foo Fighters and all that stuff. I love Kings of Leon, too. But there doesn't seem to be like the new Rockstars are the rap guys.

Yeah, or it's all electric or something.

Rock is a little like tennis. We got to get our act together.

Yeah. All right. Well, John, thank you for spending some time with us, buddy. Please come back to Los Angeles soon so we can go play.

Some golf. Love to, man. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it and awesome.

Thank you, buddy.

Thank you very much. All right. Can't wait to see you again. All right, John. Thanks.

Thanks, John. You got it, guys. Take care. Bye, buddy. You know, I really mean that about him. I find myself saying this to my daughters as often as they'll bear me saying it. That's daddy's.

Oh, sorry.

There's just one of all of us. So why would you waste any time trying to be someone else? I'm biting that from someone else, famously said that I'm sure. But he's so clearly himself. He's unique. He's singular, and he enjoys that, makes no apologies for it, and it is encouraging. It's infectious.

He's the same whenyou if you're having someone to eat with him. Remember, we played with him at Riv. We played in the pro-am. If he's teeing off in front of a hundred people, if he's walking to the thing, if you're grabbing, he's the same.

He's consistently- It seems like he's talking toHe talked the same way in the supermarket and the checkout line.

Yeah, he's just him. And when he's in the booth, too, right? When you listen to him on the broadcast-.

I wanted to tell him I played tennis when I was a kid a lot. I took tennis lessons.

Oh, he would have loved to hear that. Oh, Jesus. Are you back?

You're snacking again. I love when you save some of your best elements for after the guest.

Is gone. What else would you have put him to.

Bed with?

Hey, so wait.

My brother used to ride me on his 10-speed bike to tennis practice. I used to sit in the bar in the middle of the bike, like side saddle, and he would ride his bike all the way across town. And then on the way home, he crashed and I blacked out and I got a super fat lip and the ambulance had to came. And I was sitting on my neighbor's porch.

Ambulance had to came was the craziest thing.

The ambulance had a came.

The ambulance had a came.

The ambulance had a come.

That's.

Just peanut butter stuck in your teeth. I was that the pickup truck? This sounds like the lyrics for Stone Me by Van Morrison.

I thought he was just trying to back into a buy here, but no?

No, there is no buy.

Sean, what are you eating? Tell us what you're eating.

I just put a grape in my mouth.

Okay. A grape. Is it green or red?

Hey, guys, let me ask you this. Do you think.

That- Oh, it's red.

Do you think that I want to know where you guys stand on because it happened and then we let it go. Where you guys land on Father clock. Father Clock?

That was a low point for me. That was real. You know, your brain just doesn't fire like it used to.

I never forget.

Father Clock is.

The name of my.

High school band.

We're going to make Smartness Father Clock sweatshirts.

Yeah. And then Father clock, when you watch the Father clock, you just watch time go. Bye.

Very nice. Smart.

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Our next episode will be out in a week, wherever you listen to podcasts, or you can listen to it right now early on Amazon Music, or early and ad-free by subscribing to WNDY plus in Apple podcasts or the WNDY app.

Today, hip hop dominates pop culture, but it wasn't always like that. To tell the story of how that changed, I want to take you back to a very special year in rap.

'88, it.

Was too much good music.

The world.

Was on fire.

I'm Will Smith. This is Class of '88, my new podcast about the moments, albums, and artists that inspired a sonic revolution and secured 1988 as one of hip hop's most important years. We'll talk to the people who were there, and most of all, we'll bring you some amazing stories. You know what my biggest memory from that tour is? It was your birthday.

Yes, and you.

Brought me.

To the.

Shot of the.

Life-size, hardworking. This is Class of 88, the story of a year that changed hip hop.

Listen to Class of 88 wherever you get your podcast. You can bench the entire series right now on the Amazon Music app or Audible.