Watch.

This. Here we go. Ready? Three, two, one, three, two, one.

Here we go. Three, two, one.

Three, two, one.

And we're going.

Live in five, seven, eight.

And we're going to the West Coast in three, and then into four, three, three. You saw it here first. World premiere.

In three, two, three, two, three, two. Listener, I have to apologize for.

My comments. Hey, did we do all the three, two, ones?

Yeah. Welcome to Smartness.

Smart. Smart.

Smart. Smart. Oh, my God. I'm so nervous. Okay. Do we just go or do we practice once?

No, we're just going to do it. We're just.

Going to do it. Okay.

Okay, great.

Ready?

Hey, Smartlist listeners. This episode is brought to you in part by our friends at Verizon. If you're wishing for the new iPhone 15 Pro with titanium, you don't need to find a genie in a bottle or, I don't know, steal an unsuspecting kid's birthday wish.

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Got another one coming up, too.

Yeah. Hey, look, you know Sean and I are well acquainted with the excellent service and offerings from Verizon. So believe me when I say this upgrade deal is one for the books.

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Will, you're back on American soil. Congratulations. Thank you. Yeah, did you kiss the tarmac when you got off your plane?

I did. I always do that.

You asked him, as soon as you get off the plane, you say, Hey, can I just go down the little stairs here on the jetway? I just need to kiss the tarmac.

Well, yeah, I mean, it's the only way to get off this plane was to get off the stairs under the jetway.

Oh, my God. We were trying to do a private joke. You definitely went commercial, at least, right? From England?

Of course, I did. I had an incredible, as you guys saw say, that photo at an incredible time at Liverpool.

Yeah, with.

The Jurgand. Sean, Will's doing really well. He's flying private occasionally. He's on the pitch in Liverpool. He's got a real porny-looking mustache on his face.

Us today. I got a fresh new haircut. Wow. He's real boyish. I went up to Liverpool. I watched them play at Anfield, which is their ground. It was like such a dream come true for me. I know. Hang on. Sorry. I got to... My friend Tom took me up there kindly. Is that Werner? Tom Werner.

That's.

Nice.

Why don't you bring Tom on the show one of these days? He's a nice fella. I'd like to. He's the best. He's got a lot to say.

Tom is part of, obviously, the group that they own the Red Sox and they own Liverpool and the Pittsburgh Penguins. Suffice it to say Tom is an old friend. Jason, you and I played golf with him a number of times. He's a great dude. He invited me up to the game. I went up there. It was incredible. Billy Hogan. Did they get a win? They got a big win against West Ham. They did? That's fine. Yeah, it.

Was really cool.

I was like, Man, I'm want to know. I said to Jorggen Klop, I go, I'm want to know. I'm good luck. And I guess you have to have me back. His assistant coach who's number one right-hand, guys, this guy, Pep Linders, who's a Dutch football coach. He's a massive Smartless fan. So, Pep, I know you're listening. He's got me interested.

Scottie has a CPAP.

And Billy Hogan, who runs the team day to day, he's also a massive, massive Smartless fan, listens to every episode. Really? Yeah, every episode. So it felt very good. They were all.

Happy to- Well, let me... Because I know what a little boy you are in the best sense of the word when it comes to Liverpool or your Formula 1. I've said to people in the past, the only good thing about being semi-recognizable is that you can get a good table at a restaurant that's hard to book. But most importantly, when you meet your heroes, there's a decent chance they might know who you are, and you can skip all the fan like, Oh, I'm so sorry. Do you mind if I ask you about it? They want to talk to you, too. Will, was that amazing for you?

What was amazing was, and I don't know if it's because Pep had told Jorggen or Jürgen actually knew, but Jürgen Klop, who I totally admire, he comes towards me smiling. And of course, I do it to everybody. I do it to my agent. I go, hey, you're Will Arnett. And he goes, I know who you are. And he came and gave me a huge hug. It was... Chappie was with me. Chappie is like, What is happening? I know. This is so freaking crazy.

That's so cool. Sean, we got a chap you mentioned.

Yeah, we got a Chappie. I know we did. But we're Smartness. We are the official podcast of Liverpool Football Club.

That's so exciting. I got a flat tire yesterday. Should we get to the guest?

No, hang on. Sean.

Sean's with gas this morning.

By the way, here's the other thing I was going to say. I come back stateside, as we say. Good to know there's more. Sean's juggling his... Bzz. I come back, and I start watching American football. Yeah. I see you two clowns every 10 minutes in.

Your- Sorry about that.

Yeah, in your Verizon spot. Yeah. I love you guys both. And you're in there and you're hilarious. And you guys have obviously great chem.

And the Great Will Speck and Josh Gordon.

Directed it. Yeah, those guys. And it made me so happy to see you guys.

The problem is that they came to us because the iPhone and Verizon is a fan of Smartless, so they thought to come to us. The reason, listener, that Will is not on that is because he's got a prior commitment with a phone company.

Yes, Jason, you're right. I have a prior commitment with a phone company. But what was fun was-.

There's more money for me and Sean, basically.

Coming home and coming back and seeing you guys on the air, it was like I'd been gone. And then I'm like... Because it was Monday Night Football, I was like, Look at these guys.

Look at these Clowns. Sean, you were very good. You were very good that whole day, Shawnie. Well, likewise. Now wait, was that the first... Sean, it's the first time you and I have acted together, right?

I think so, yeah. I think it.

Was, yeah. We did the dock and everything, but that was just us playing. I guess we were playing ourselves in this spot, too. But anyway.

But it was fun.

It.

Was a real dream. But it was fun. Good God you made me laugh hard.

Well, you both... First of all, you both look... And, Jason, I want to say that you did not look great. You look great. You did not look puffy.

Really? Yeah, you.

Look very fun.

I think there may have been a little bit of help in post-production. I look like I could be something else. I look like I could be something else. Just a little bit, just a little under the eyes, I think, of post-production. No, Sean, you always look good. I think in post-production, they may have.

Done that. It's called tough production.

Yeah, tough production. But I don't know. Listen, you got to be pretty on TV. Guys, let's get to our guest, okay? This person's got stuff to do. Today's guest is a Grammy winner.

What? Just bring him on.

She has a degree from Stanford. She's a gifted fisherman. She's got part Dutch, Canadian, English, Irish, Russian. She plays volleyball, basketball. She also has multiple Emmys. What? She's a Rhodes scholar and earned a Doctor of Philosophy and Politics from Oxford. What the heck? She's written four books, has had a crossword puzzle in The New York Times, had her own radio show, a couple of podcasts, and her own TV show. What's happening? She's a hero to some and inconvenient to others. Please welcome Robert and Elaine's daughter, David's sister, Susan's partner, and one of my personal heroes, America's own, Rachel Ann Maddow. Oh, my God. Now that's a booking. That's a booking.

Thats just like going to cry.

I'm.

Going to cry. Cry on me. This is crazy. This is a top notch.

Booking, baby.

How did you get to me by saying you got to be pretty to be on TV? Okay, let's go to the guests. I thought that was cruel.

This.

Is so cool. Rachel, I've been mistaken for you so many times.

We.

Should check in in the morning about who's using the haircut today.

That should be noted until he talks.

Oh, my God. That reminds me of I'll never forget Will. Amy cracked me up one day. She said, what didn't she call herself? She said, I'm the female Chris Matthews. Who said that? Amy Polar. Did she really? She called herself that once. I thought it was a funny thing. Actually, that's.

A good party game. Which MSNBC host are you.

That is.

Not bad. Rachel, I saw you walking down the street in New York one time, like a couple of years ago.

And I was like- I have a creepier start to your story. Keep going.

I was following closely behind you in a van down sixth Avenue. It's hard to.

See through the bushes. I could smell you as you passed.

And I was like, Rachel, screw it. I was like, No, I can't. I'm too nervous. I was too nervous. Was I.

Doing something weird or was I just getting groceries or something? No, you were.

Just walking. You were just walking.

Rachel, I am so, so excited that you are here. With all respect to all of the guests that have been nice enough to say yes to my invites, I will say you're one and one A with Radiohead for me. Oh, wow. Well, Sean, can you attest to that?

Yes. Jason talks about you.

All the time. I mean, all I do is watch MSNBC. It's true. It's true. It's 12 hours a day.

It's true. Do you think you are Joy Reed if you had to be one of us?

There isn't anyone I don't love on that. Anyway.

I think if I am any other host, I think I'm Chris Hayes.

Chris Hayes hangs a son.

For me. I could see that. I've seen you guys go back and forth a little bit over the years, and you seem like you guys legitimately get along very well. That you see eye to eye.

Very collegial workplace here. People like.

Each other. But now we no longer have the handoff. A, you're only one day a week, and that one day a week, you're leading now is Jansaki, another past guest of ours.

I loved her guest with you guys.

Oh, good. She's awesome. That was a great conversation. Now, do you think she's going to be as good at the on time handoff as Chris was? He was never late. He was so good about cutting off guests and getting to you on time.

So humbling because he made such an effort to always make sure at 9:00, I was ready to go. Whereas I'm always traipsing a minute and a half into Lawrence's show. Oh, sorry. You do.

10 minutes with Lawrence on his because he makes sure he's got to tell everybody who he's got while he's still got your audience, which I get. I would do the same thing.

Wait, I got a question, Rachel. It's to that point. What's fascinating to me about what you do is how you fill in the gaps and you constantly have something to talk about endlessly. Is that embarrassing? How much of that is like on a prompter or on a card or on a card? How much research before every single show? Are you just filled with education in your brain where you can just.

Keep talking about it? She's not winging it like we do.

I don't have any other life, for example. I don't have like things. It's just this. Anything where it's like me talking to the camera, I have written it down. If it's me interacting with another human, I have not written it down. So that's the way to know if it's.

In the teleprompter. But for instance, your interview with Cassidy Hutchinson the other day was incredible. You were certainly prepared for that. You had questions that were very specific that we all really wanted to hear the answers on. And she was incredible and forthcoming.

I mean, book interviews are great, but I'm only interested in talking to people about a book if I'm interested in the book. And so I've always read the book. But once you've read the book, you don't have to do that much other preparation as long as you grock it and you understand what's.

Going on. Rachel, explain to the guys what a book is. Yeah, what does that mean? Neither of them reads, ever.

It's alarming. You read an entire book for one interview. It's alarming. It's just stunning. I know.

That seems- You know how stuff gets stapled together? You move the staple to the long side of the paper. You still don't have them.

And it's left to right, top to bottom, right?

Put it in TV terms. Just put it in a television program. Imagine a television program, but all the dialogue was... How what else.

Would I do? Crunched into-.

It's cue cards you can hold.

You.

Know what, Rachel? Yeah, but what I was saying is just that the ability to... If something goes wrong or the satellite didn't connect, sorry, we can't get them, and you just fill the space right away.

Well, by the way, I will say, and Rachel, just so you don't have to be too embarrassed about why you are so smart, I will say that part of the thing is that because I imagine someone like Rachel is so well read that she's able to talk on many different subjects at all times because she has points of reference other than the Golden Bachelor, you guys.

So which is embarrassing.

For the two of you. I know, neither can I, by the way. Neither can I. I've never watched any of the Batches. I want that to-.

No, never. And I want to watch that one, too.

What does it take to be Golden? How old.

Is he? Over 50?

He's 72.

They did The Golden Bachelor once in Germany, but that was different. It was a different show. Here, get rid of the joke. Here we go.

No, it is what you think it is.

That would be great. I've been there.

Sure. No, but, Rachel, you have said, and when I say that, I'm talking about my research on Wikipedia, that you think you have an obligation to, since you have a light on the camera, that you need to have something to say when that light comes on. And you're very responsible and making sure that you're prepared. And you're brilliant at doing that, a block where you are giving us some story. We have no idea what the hell you're talking about for a few minutes in the best way. And then you land the plane and contextualize what this story and history was as it pertains to something that's going on today. I love that. And it's just thank you for that. You hold my hand every night or once a week now, damn it.

That's the way that I learn if something's going on that I think is interesting or important, I want to be able to say why it's interesting or why it's important. And usually that involves some origin story or some historical analog or something like that. And so that's usually where those stories come from. But when it comes to just having something to say. I really firmly believe in reading widely, not only reading about the thing you're supposedly researching, but just reading a lot.

Right. Yeah. I think, Rachel, tell me if this rings true for you at all. If someone like you, you went to Stanford, you're a road scholar, you're really well educated, you obviously can speak to a number of different big issues. There used to be a time when somebody like you came along and was so well-informed and was so smart and able to really deal with a lot of complex issues at one time and blah, blah, blah, they would maybe turn all their talents to the public sector. They would try in a way to serve in government, et cetera, et cetera. Now, partially, and it's just really a result of where we are as a society, the highest calling almost is entertainment and celebrity. But within that, you get to have your cake and eat it too, because you get to go do that. But in a way, you get to serve the public by, as Jason said, helping people understand what's going on. You get to do both. Do you see it in that way that you're... Again, I don't want you to say that you're doing some great thing for the greater good, but you are.

Of course. It's nice of you to think of it that way. I definitely feel like my job is trying to understand things myself so that I can explain them for lots of people. And so that is a very satisfying job, particularly at a time when things, I think, the news feels overwhelming or devastating to lots of people to have it be your job, the thing you get paid to do to try to understand it and explain it in a way that makes sense, that's real. It's a very therapeutic thing. But in terms of what I'm trying to do in the world, I was an activist before I got involved in the media, and I definitely see a hard dividing line between those two things. I spent a long time trying to get people to do things, trying to get policies to change, trying to advocate for specific people in trouble or whatever it was. I stopped doing advocacy and started explaining.

Because there's no money in it. There's no money in it, and you can't get a table of restaurant, as Jason said, I.

Get it. But talk more about that, Rachel, because I would imagine it would be difficult to turn that switch off of advocacy with the end game being actual change and results. Whereas now you're probably able to say much more with much more specificity, deeper reach, much more research. But you need to be a little more, I guess, indifferent to whether the results are going to come because you're presenting information and potentially hoping that people react to it and change their patterns from it. But there's no follow-up to that like there is in the other work you were.

Doing, perhaps. Yeah, it's interesting. I really feel like what I'm doing now has a bigger impact, but I have to have less ego about what it is because I'm not trying to change one politics. I used to work for the ACLU National Prison Project, and I was in ACT UP, in the AIDS activist heyday. We were always trying to get a thing done. I feel like I know how to do that, and I was pretty good at it, but I was average good at it. There's a lot of other people doing it that were better than me. But with what I'm doing now, I feel like hopefully by creating more understanding, by making what's important about the news and current events really plain to people, it makes it possible for people to make their own decisions about either just participating or doing activism.

We'll.

Be right back.

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Because in my brain, I've already said the other half, like the top half. And he's like, Wait, I don't even know what you're talking about. Who are you talking about? You need to catch me up. So a lot of the times I get ahead of myself instead of stopping, being present, and catching him up on things because my mind races so fast. So do you ever feel like your brain is getting in its own way? Like you know what you should do, what's good for you, but you just don't do it? Therapy helps you figure out what's holding you back so you can work for yourself instead of against yourself. If you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge. Every single time I talk to my therapist, especially about being present, it always makes me feel better instead of falling back into the rapid fire brain overload. Make your brain your friend with better help. Visit betterhelp. Com/smartlist today to get 10 % off your first month.

That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P. Com/smartlist. And now back to the show.

So, Rachel, your latest book, Prequel, is a bit of a cautionary tale. Yes, that is applicable to what we're talking about right here. That in fact, America went through this at least once before right around World War II, is this story that you've uncovered, correct?

Yeah. I think it's a positive story because there was all these Americans who fought against it. But there was this really big fight in the lead up to World War II in this country against the fascist movement in this country that in a lot of cases was actually working with Nazi Germany to try to set up a similar form of government here. We had paramilitary groups, and we had a Nazi agent working with lots of members of Congress on a big.

Propaganda effort. It was seemingly a very big movement that had quite a bit of support. There's lots of documentation to.

That, right? Yeah. The most famous industrialist in the country, Henry Ford, was part of it. The biggest national hero at the time, Charles Lindberg, was a big part of it.

I'm watching the documentary. I just watched it and started watching last night. It's called The United States and the Holocaust.

Oh, yeah.

Ken Burns. Yes.

It's fascinating. And he has a lot on Charles Coughlin and Lindberg. Yes. Coughlin was the biggest media figure we've ever had in America. He was a self-described fascist and a rabbit anti-Semite, and he set up armed militia groups around the country among his followers.

Good guy. Was there a remedy that came from this that we could perhaps learn from to offset what we're.

Dealing with? Dude, we tried. I don't know if you've seen, but there's been other people who have come in and take over the media, and they're not necessarily American. Like you were saying, we keep making the same fucking mistake. What's the change? What is the change that needs to happen?

How did they get through it then that maybe we could draft off now?

That's why I wrote the book, is that I actually think there's a bunch of lessons learned, things to post it notes, things to remember for 80 years from now when this comes around again. I mean, obviously, the Nazis are... There's nobody like the Nazis. That's not the analogy. The analogy is a domestic movement.

That was.

Their slogan. Don't settle for second best.

We're the worst you've ever met.

But is there one thing that we should focus on to maybe inoculate ourselves from a possible future, or are there many small things?

It's that there can't just be one thing. Everything has to happen at once. When it's crimes, when there's violence, there has to be prosecution. The criminal justice system has a role, and it's really important to protect them from being intimidated. The risk of violence that I was talking about in the 1944 sedition trial, which I write about in the book, the attorney general was actually pressured by a senator who was implicated in the plot, was pressured by that senator into firing the prosecutor in that case. It worked. That's terrible. We have to make sure the justice department and the legal system is protected from intimidation. But then it's also activism, people infiltrating these groups, good journalism about it. You need the military to court-martial people. You need the bar associations and churches to police their ranks. When the Catholic churches who shut down Father Coughlin, and had they not, he'd still be preaching anti-Semitism all through World War II.

You're saying that we could live in a world where a president could escape punishment because potentially, like the Southern district of New York would refuse to... I'm dealing in hypotheticals here.

Well, maybe what might be even more apt, another book that you wrote, Bagman, correct me if I'm wrong, is the Spear-Agnu, that there was a deal offered to him that may or may not potentially be a precedent for what could shape the possible conclusion of any Trump sentencing?

Well, what happened with Agnew is that they hit him with a 40-count federal indictment, which sounded amazing at the time, and now we're up in the 90-something-count federal indictment, and so he sounds like a piker. They were hitting him with that felony indictment, and he so didn't want to go to jail that his very able lawyers negotiated a deal where he'd plead no law, he'd plead effectively no contest to one felony, and he would avoid jail time. But the penalty was that he had to resign from office.

And agree never to go into politics again, correct? Right.

I asked the prosecutors who were involved in that if that was a contingency, if they said, You can never run again. They said, We never thought that we would ever have to put that in writing because who would ever think of voting for somebody who'd been charged with felony?

No, but... Wasn't this right at the moment where they were pretty sure Nixon was either going to resign or be impeached and that - Or die. -and that Spiro Agnew, with all of these, what was it? Tax fraud or something like that, the possibility was strong that he could end up in jail as a result of that prosecution, but then be appointed President because Nixon was on his way, and they didn't want a President to be incarcerated because it would just be a nightmare. So they offered him this deal. Am I getting any of that?

This whole idea that you can't bring a prosecution against a sitting President, that whole idea really was crystallized and formalized at the Justice Department around Nixon and Agnew because the attorney general at the time, Elliot Richardson, is one of the people who is getting middle of the night, drunken phone calls from Nixon, ranting and raving and seeming like a crazy person. The attorney general thought he was in such bad shape that he was going to die and that that agnes was going to be elevated. It was tax evasion, but it was also bribery and extortion and all these other corruption crimes. They thought, My God, we've got to figure out a way to get him.

Out of there. But there's also that thing. They probably never imagined it, Rachel, because there was a thing back then that people had a ad that was called shame. They'd reach a certain point, and now the people are so ashamed. How do.

You spell it?

Shame? Yeah, where they'd be like, even a guy like he's like, I'm not going to go if I can do that. I can't do that. That's indecent at the highest level. I've done a bunch of other shit, but doing that now, it doesn't matter. All of that is out the window because of-.

You can't assume that.

I think such a dumb, dumb question to all of this is like, why do people go into politics? I don't understand. The second you get elected, you got a target on your back, and then they're involved in everything we're talking about, where I'm going to get you. I'm going to sue you. I'm going to sue you. And it seems like an endless game of that.

I mean, you can do good stuff in politics. Government can do good things, but a lot of people go into politics because they want power and they want ego. They want to be able to.

Get to the stroke. It's certainly not for the money, right? Doesn't an average senator make far, far less, probably a 10th of what they could make in the private sector being a lawyer? Most of these senators would be the top lawyer in their district. They're taking a big pay cut, so it must.

Just be the power. Although they all seem to do very well after they leave office. Yeah, no kidding. You've never seen a poor ex-senator?

Yeah. What did they call? Monanda, is it a gold bar bobby or something like that. I thought it was pretty funny. Now, well, Rachel, let's go back. Let's go back to the volleyball and basketball days and getting the... Now, your father was Air Force, I believe, and your mom was in education.

Sort of, yeah.

Yeah? Okay, so then- She worked at the middle school. Okay. But clearly there was that great cocktail of those two things at the dinner table for you to start getting interested in those worlds. Yes? And did politics, was it an early passion, or do you find it later?

No, not at all. It's interesting. I didn't... We weren't like a kids book family. We didn't have that. That wasn't the vibe. My mom grew up on a farm very poor in Northeastern Canada. My dad was the first person in his family to go to college. Take it easy, Will.

Wait a second. We're going to pause. Your mom's Canadian?

Here we go. She's from Newfoundland.

She's from Newfoundland?

Yes. Oh, there he goes.

There he goes. Oh, there he goes. I'm Canadian from Trump. We're going to say hi to all our buddies out there in Newfoundland there, buddy.

Hey.

There. Hey, Jormay. Hey, Camden.

No way.

That's amazing. Big family, lots of sisters who are nuns. She didn't want to be a nun, didn't want to be a nurse, afraid of the sight of blood, and didn't want to be a teacher, didn't much like children. So she left, came to the United States, ended up meeting my dad when he was in the Air Force. But I grew up reading the newspaper and was more interested in news. But then by the time I was figuring out who I was in my teenage years, it was the real height of the AIDS crisis. I was coming out as gay, and I was growing up in the San Francisco Bay area. I just got really swept up in AIDS activism really early on.

But did you guys talk about current events and stuff at the dinner table? Were you that family? Were you talked about what was going on?

No. Not really. I wasn't really like that. No. I mean, my parents are fantastic. They're my favorite people in the world. But it just wasn't that vibe. I think they were as surprised as I was. I also didn't start doing anything in the news media until after I was almost done with my graduate degree. I just was on a totally different plane. My first news job was I did... There was an open, on-air audition to be the news girl on the Morning Zoo radio show next to the town that I was growing up in.

No.

Way. Drive time. No way, Rachel Maddow on The Morning Zoo is the greatest.

I was, newsgirl was my title.

No way. All right, we're here with the Weasel and the Woody, and here with Rachel. Here's the girl. Wait, Sean, your dad was in the airport, right? Yeah, he took off real fast. No, not just because he took off. Yeah, he took off. That's why I thought that.

But, Rachel, what drew you to want to even do that? What drew you to be like, Oh, my God, I want to try that zoo news review, whatever.

It was a dare. I was staying with friends.

I.

Was staying with friends, and I was doing odd jobs, and I was terrible at all of them. I was doing deliveries, but I had a car with an electrical problem. Unless I could leave my car running and it would not stall out, I needed a jump every.

Time I needed to go to a. I got a park on a hill, popped a fludge. It was really bad.

I have that problem, too.

I worked at... My friends had a coffee roasting company, and I installed some plumbing backwards in their plant and made a faucet blow up. I just had a lot of really bad jobs. And so my friends who I was staying with said, Oh, this morning show we listen to, they're doing this audition. I auditioned live on the air, and I got hired on the spot and started the next day. And I just loved it from the reading, Associated Press, like rip and Read, top of the hour news copy.

And I was like, How are you doing this? And you just couldn't get enough. How are you doing this? That's so cool.

Amazing. But then I'm going to jump way forward then. Now, flashing forward, you find yourself as a panelist on Tucker Carlson's show on MSNBC. I don't remember him on MSNBC. You came on my radar when I was, because I was a big, big, still am an Oberman fan. You were on there often. But was Tucker the same Tucker back then, or was he on the left? No.

He wasn't on the left. Msnbc wasn't really. I mean, Keith is what made MSNBC liberal. He did great. He came out as a liberal, did a great job. His incredible broadcasting talent. And he, with especially the special comments, created cut the path through the jungle in terms of making MSNBC have a liberal identity. Before that, it really didn't. And so Tucker doing the late night show on MSNBC, like MSNBC was just politics. It wasn't any one lane in politics. I think it might have been his immediate post-bo-tie job. I don't think it was... I think he was post-bo-tie.

Post-bo-tie. Yeah, that's the delineation. I think that he became the Tucker that we all ended up knowing when he realized how well it paid to be that guy. I know that's a cynical thing, but I truly believe that. I don't know the guy at all, but I'm really good at judging people harshly. It's a talent. You should hear me talk about Elon Musk. But I would say- I love that. I will say, let me ask you, Rachel, when it comes to Tucker.

Do.

You miss him?

I'm real busy.

Yeah, I know.

Well.

That's good. He and Bill O'Reilly must be doing something. But thank God that Keith came along and exposed us all to you and was such a big advocate for you. You ended up being on the Keith Show quite a bit and then guest hosting for him quite a bit and enjoying it and him enjoying you, and MSNBC enjoying you, and then your show took off, yes?

Yeah. So it was interesting. One of the things that Keith did for me was he said, You should use my agent. And I never do that. I'd stop my agent from representing anybody who I compete against, but you should use my agent, which was a very generous thing. Oh, wow. She's fantastic. Her name is Jean Sayed. She was my agent forever and ever and Ever and Ever. And Jean convinced the President of MSNBC, Phil Griffin, to hire me. And the fact that I had done so well and perceived to have done well on Keith's show, I think, was absolutely the on-ramp there. But then I started at nine o'clock right after the 2008 or right after the 2008 election. And then that's what I've been doing ever since. Only recently did I scale back from five days to one day, but we just turned 15.

Yeah, that's awesome. Congratulations. What a great accomplishment. Kinsenor. But now you're leaving yourself open to pursue all the many other things that you're doing with the writing and the podcasting and et cetera. And also finding time to live a life and fish with Susan. Yeah, trying. Do you guys do something- Susan is your wife. Are you comfortable telling us that it just dums it all down? Are you waiting with baited breath for The Golden Bachelor or crap like that? I say with all respect.

We are such old child.

Or at least as much respect that you can muster be.

Exactly. What do you guys do to dumb it down?

Are you familiar with the Great British Baking Show? Yes, of course. Yes. I think it's the greatest television show ever made, but I also haven't watched much television, so I don't know. But it's my perfect drug.

It's my perfect- Does it get you then to the kitchen to try your talents at the same stuff?

Oh, no, I can only make drinks.

Do you read a book while you're watching TV?

What's your favorite drink? If someone's going to bring you a bottle of something as a gift, you're coming over to Rachel's house for dinner, what do they want to bring you? Is it wine?

Is it- Yeah. I don't drink vodka, but other than that, I'm pretty good. Oh, really? I'm pretty equal opportunity. But I also feel like I.

Used to be- Wait, what's the vodka story? At what point was someone holding your hair after vodka?

No, I just don't like it. It tastes like a cleaning product to me. You know how some people have that with cylinder? And people always say, Oh, vodka has no flavor. I'm like, It does. And it tastes like you should be...

It's under the rim. It's funny. I have this image of you and your partner, Susan, because our friend Eli is a friend of all of ours. He used to always say we'd watch you when we were in Atlanta, whatever, and he'd say, I just want to go to Rachel's house and have coffee in the morning and have her just talk me through everything that's going on. Just break it all down. Just make me feel okay and break everything down because there's so much information. I just want to sit on her porch. I go, Yeah, Eli. I don't think that's going to happen, buddy.

Also, that's not what coffee with me is like. It's a pretty nonverbal experience until.

The end of the day. Yeah, it's also a big thing to me. I'm into cup two.

Rachel, you know what I find interesting? What I really enjoy is watching you when you're on TV and you're talking about a subject, your cadence is second to none because it's often quite broken up and you take pauses that I... What I've gleaned from your pauses is that you're thinking, which is extraordinary.

Because a lot of people just- You're letting the teleprompters catch.

Up, though. Well, yeah. It's suggesting that there's no prompter for whatever subject that is that you're musing on and that we live in a world where people are so quick to have an answer. It's not just about being right, it's about how quick you can be right. And it's so odd, and I think it's so powerful to take a moment when you're talking about something to really think about it before you... It's the thing when people say, when we had Biden on last year on our podcast, President Biden, and people saying, Well, you know what? What was he like? I said, You know what? He's a really thoughtful guy. And yes, he's older than we are. However, I do like the idea of somebody who's in that position. Taking a minute to think about it when presented with a problem, and that is something that is really undervalued. I think I see you do it in real time, and I find it very interesting. It's very powerful, right?

Yeah, very well said.

Well, I think it's important not to lag through stuff that you don't know. If you don't know, it's okay. Don't make it up. It's okay. We can find somebody else who does have the answer if you don't. But even if you're being asked your opinion on something, I think there isn't value to just singing it out in the right tempo. There has to be a reason that you're there. There has to be a reason that you're worthy of being asked and worthy of the attention. It's why I don't put on my shows I never put on people to fight. And if somebody lies on the show, I don't invite them back. I feel like I'm offering my audience a chance to hear from somebody because I think they have something valuable to say.

All right, I'll do it.

-that enhance our understanding of things.

Yes, you can do that. Boy, you really misplayed that, John. She was...

We'll be right back.

Thank you to Audible for their support. Audible lets you enjoy all your audio entertainment in one app. You'll always find the best of what you love or something new to discover. There's an incredible selection of audiobooks across every genre, from best sellers and new releases to celebrity memoirs, mysteries, and thrillers, motivation, wellness, business, and more. As an Audible member, you can choose one title a month to keep from their entire catalog of thousands of titles. I can tell you, I've been looking at all these incredible titles. I mean, listen, if they're all as good as the covers look. Now, I'm trying not to judge a book by the cover, but I'm thinking about just planning vacations just to listen to books. So I'm going to get back to you when I settle on the vacation spot and book. Maybe we can all meet there. New members can try Audible free for 30 days. Visit audible. Com/smartlist or text smartlist to 500-500. That's audible. Com/smartlist or text smartlist to 500-500 to try Audible free for 30 days. Audible. Com/smartlist. Hello, listener, Jason here. November is diabetes awareness month. Did you know that? A time to bring attention to diabetes.

Let's talk about it. I know it's not fun or sexy, but hang on. Just let me finish. Managing diabetes requires a lot of effort, and unfortunately, a lot of people living with it don't feel understood because many people don't many people know what it really takes to manage the condition. Well, that's where Medtronic diabetes comes in. Medtronic makes devices to manage diabetes, and they're very passionate about supporting the community, which is why they launched their Blue Balloon challenge to raise awareness. The Balloon represents the mental load and constant decision making that people living with diabetes are faced with. It's a constant balancing act trying to keep blood, sugars, and range while living their life. Medtronic diabetes wants you to join the challenge and help them spread awareness and support for the diabetes community. Grab a blue balloon and try to keep it in the air while doing everyday things in your life. Tag @medtronicdiabetes on social media and use the hashtag Blue BalloonChallenge. We can all come together to help make the invisible visible. Visit medtronicdiabetes. Com/smartlist to learn more. That's medtronicdiabetes. Com/smartness.

All.

Right, back to the show.

Wait, Rachel, do you think because... And then I want to get back more to you, but do you think now is the time, more than ever in a long, long time for an independent to win next year? Because it doesn't seem like... What I'm feeling is people aren't excited about either side. I'm excited about one side. But a lot of the people seem like they're not excited about either side. And I thought, well, gosh, what a perfect storm for somebody to break through right in the middle and run as an independent.

We really have a de facto two-party democracy, though. And so trying to bring about an independent candidacy at a practical level, all you're doing is deciding which of the two parties you want to have that proportion of the vote shaved off of. So if you bring on an independent who's going to appeal to Democratic candidates, you're just making it more likely that President Biden will lose. And if you bring on an independent candidate who's more attractive to Republicans, you're making it more likely that probably Trump will lose. So it ends up in real politics just being that. We can reimagine the American political system using instant runoff voting and other things that are now being tried in some states so that there isn't that spoiler effect. But right now, while it exists, the only purpose of an independent candidate is to take votes away from the major party candidate who they are most like.

Will there ever be a world in this country where they will blow up the electoral college, that system? Will that ever happen?

Maybe. There's all sorts of counter majoritarian things, like things in our system where the majority votes for a thing, but they still don't get it. That are starting to be really, I think, over-exploited by people who want different types of minority rules. That's gerrymandering. That's the electoral college, that's other forms of abuse of the legislative system. The ways Congress are changing. Republicans, broadly speaking, are using them in ways that are against voting at a very level. A Democrat gets elected governor of North Carolina, and so the Republicans in the North Carolina legislature take away all the powers that the governor has. Eventually, that stuff reaches its limit. If we're going to be a democracy and not a country where you rule by force, then people are going to have to stand up for democracy. That might mean the counter majoritarian stuff like the electoral college is going to get some pressure.

We're now seeing how vitally important it is to maintain control of the Supreme Court and what happens when you don't.

Yeah. Using underhanded and duplicitous and hypocritical tactics to get your majority on the Supreme Court pays off for the life of the justices. That's a bad precedent to set because you've now set the bar that any means necessary for getting a justice onto the court is effectively justified by what the.

Republicans do. Right. We're not talking about necessarily, by the way, it should be noted to our listeners who were put off by us talking in this way. We're not saying that having a conservative judge is bad. I'm really not suggesting it. If it's done within the framework of what is fair, then that's fine. What we're talking about is rigging the system to affect the outcome. And when you do that, that is not fair. That is not a democracy working at its best, functioning at its best. And you should also be opposed to that because were to work against you, you'd feel very undermined and you'd feel very cheated and you'd feel like the.

System has been- But unfortunately, it seems like we're having to start to workshop and brainstorm what else we can do now that fair is becoming less and less common in the political space. And do we take the bait and start playing by their rules and thus sacrificing our own values and ethics? Or do we continue on the high road and get comfortable with the losses? I'm not sure what the future is going to hold for that.

I feel like the lesson of history here is to have one Lode Star, which is protect democracy. And that means make sure that everybody knows and everybody believes and we reify every way we can that the way we solve problems in this country is through democratic process. And anything that is about to... What Will was saying about the fair process of which justices end up on the Supreme Court. If you vote for a conservative president, part of what you are voting for is if there is a vacancy on the Supreme Court while that president is in his office, that president will appoint a conservative to the court, or conversely, with a liberal. You are voting for a liberal president. It is with the understanding that if there's a vacancy, they'll be a liberal appointee. When that system gets broken, you are separating outcomes from the vote, and you are making people feel like the vote doesn't matter. In fact, you are making it so their vote doesn't matter, which means our democracy is getting weaker. Whoever wins or loses any particular fight, the connection between people's desire and the outcomes they get from their government should always be the load star, because that's the thing that's under assault from people who want authoritarianism and rule by force instead.

Of rule by vote. That's right. To that, can you... I hate for you to make a prediction, but what do you think is going to be the lifespan of Travis, Kelsey, and Taylor Swift? Is there any way that this makes it to the playoffs? I was thinking the same thing. I'm all.

Into it. It's a hard knock life.

It's a very tough one.

He's a very large man. He's a very large target. There's a lot of ways to make him.

You're good to avoid an answer on that one. Now, Rachel, I'm sure that there's a team of incredibly gifted people that you get to work with every day, or maybe not every day now for your show, but- Not every day. Yeah. What is your favorite part? I won't ask you to take us through your entire day because I'm sure it's a lot, but is there a favorite part of the day that is potentially completely imploded when there's some breaking news and you got to toss it all out? What's your favorite part.

Of that collaboration? Part of the reason that I left doing five days a week and went to one day a week is that I felt like my thoughts were getting shorter, that I was starting to think in short thoughts without any... I wanted to think book-link thoughts instead of tweet-link thoughts. Now that I have this new schedule, I'm spending a lot of time, and I'm working on a lot of projects that involve me reading a lot of books. I look like I'm going to get smothered by a collapsing pile of books about Nazis at any time of the day. But to have to dig myself out of my home library where I'm dug into something going on in the 1920s in Mexico and then have to jump into like, Wait, the bankruptcy court judge said what about Trump? Soho? It can be a little weird.

Yeah. So you must have an incredible team of researchers that can keep you up to date and/or answer questions when you have them about what are the legal ramifications of X, Y, or Z? It's probably never ending.

Well, MSNBC made a good decision. In the Trump era, everybody in the news had to become a jailhouse lawyer like we all had to learn and all that stuff because.

They're all learning. You mean the same way that we all became medical experts through the pandemic?

Yes, exactly. We all developed ERSAT's expertise. But the MSNDC did a really good thing, and they hired a bunch of lawyers both as on-air correspondents, but also as off-air consultants to help us process and understand and be correct about analyzing. It used to be just Supreme Court decisions you'd have to deal with or an occasional true crime thing that captured people's attention. Now the President potentially going to jail in four different jurisdictions. You need to know a lot more with a lot more specificity.

You might enjoy this. This is a little bit of a tangent. We can always cut it. About six months ago, I was in Atlanta with Eli, and we got into an argument at breakfast over there at the OK Cafe, which is a terrific.

Dining room. Pictures you and Eli in an.

Argument is already fun. Yeah, and our buddy, Bob. We were sitting there, and I said... I made the point that-.

Was Chubby not there?

Chubby No, Chubby was not there. He was at the infield with the Gaglin Club. I brought up the point that ignorance of the law is never a defense, as you might know, Rachel, you know that probably, and it's just not. Eli and I went back and forth. I ended up calling Jeff, who I work with, who's also an attorney. He agreed with me. Eli said, Well, I don't think he really knows. Eli's from Halifax. Then we called my dad, who's retired for many years. My dad said, Well, actually, Willy, you're right. It's not ever a defense and etc. Eli didn't believe me. We had a little bit of time. Eli went to the bathroom. Bob goes on, what's that? Cameo. Sure. Oh, God. He finds out that for a hundred dollars, we can get Alan Dershowitz to do a cameo. We put in the message who said, Hey, everybody, just graduating from law school. It's an inside joke. Tell everybody, Eli, about whether or not ignorance is the laws of defense. Alan Dershowitz does this fucking cameo within 20 minutes that we sent to Eli. He goes, Eli, by the way, he did it from his home.

We're still in the argument, and he gets an email from Alan Dershowitz saying that it's never... How fucking great is that?

Fantastic. So what did Alan say in the cameo?

He said, I was just getting a massage. I never took the clothes off. These are quotes. Yeah.

Well, what a cameo.

But he agreed with it. He said, Ignorance of the law is never a defense.

Whether or not you're wearing your underpants.

Whether or not you're wearing your underpants. How fucking great is that? That's.

We should use cameo more for inside- Stuff like that? I know. -for settling inside jokes and arguments.

How good is that?

Yeah, it's a good idea.

I got one once from the guy from Insane Clown Pussy. Did you? Really? That was really good. It was thanking me for having done a thing for a pal. But it was just this magnificent font of every iteration of the F-word I had ever heard used every possible way. It was like it was- It.

Was fantastic. And you did not have a beef with any of the juggalows, right? That's what their.

Followers are trying to.

Tell you. I'm a pro-Juggaloo. Is that true?

Yeah, it's true.

Oh, yeah. Are you kidding? Do you know what it means to be anti-juggalow? Then you're very bad. Don't say that.

Really? Don't say it. Rachel, when you're home in your pile of books, reading and stuff, is this something you and Susan chat about? Do you guys like, Susan's like, Hey, honey, what book did you read today? Or is it something you completely do by yourself and she does this all by herself and then you meet for dinner at the end and you talk about the day, but you don't talk about your books?

Pretty much the latter. What I do, which is a horrible thing, is that we'll be out in the woods on a dog walk or something and I'll go, Hey, do you want a Nazi story? There's always, No. This one's burning a hole in my pocket. Wait, can I tell you, please? She'll occasionally indulge me, but I cannot overstate the importance of having a partner who does not value your work. I think it's really important. Jason knows. She likes me, but she doesn't care.

Jason's well aware of it.

Yeah, exactly. My daughters, they don't give it up either. They're like, they could not be less interested.

It's very good for you.

It's very good for you. The other day, I was with Jason and one of his daughters, who I absolutely love. And I said, Jason is like, Wait, what did you say? I'm like, Jason, I texted that to you a week ago. And he goes, And I never responded? And I go, No. And his daughter turns and she goes, That's okay. You never responds to my text either.

Not sure. He's the worst. He's the worst. You're the fucking worst. The ones that are important get the risk- T times.

T times. T times.

You've got to respond.

Rachel, if you ever wanted to get a response out of Jason, you just go, How's next Thursday at 10:00 look for you to tee off? And then he'll answer you, and then you've got him. And then you say the real thing.

Listen, Rachel, I'm trying to stay occupied during a strike. I'm trying to keep the brain fresh.

Sunday dinner when I was out of town, is that still happened? Dinner happened when I was out of town?

Oh, sure. Your life does keep going. Fuck, man. It's shocking. Rachel, we love you. We can't thank.

You enough. We love you, Rachel. Such an honor to meet you. You guys are fantastic. I can't.

Believe I never met you. I can't believe I'm.

So busy. Thank you for saying yes. No, you're so cool.

Thank you for having me. You guys are really awesome. And it makes me, I have to say just briefly, little earnestness. There's a lot of crappy podcasts that have a lot of listens in the world, and it makes me happy and heartened that you guys are so successful with this because you guys are nice and interesting and kind. Thank you. -and that is not usually what sells in this world. And you guys are doing... Your success in this world makes me happy.

Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you for.

What you're doing. Yeah, we feel the same about you. You've done so much for so many people, and I think you're doing a great service to the world. So thank you.

Thanks, guys. Yeah. Rest up. You've got a busy year ahead of you. Thank you for spending a little time.

With us. Yeah, of course. And one of these days, I'm going to stop you in New York, and then we're going to have a proper meal.

Just to have the van pull over and then just.

Get out.. Little aether cloth. You just put it right off my nose and throw me in the van. That's how everybody else does it.

That's.

Hysterical. All right. We love you. Enjoy the rest of the day. Thank you, Rachel. Thank you, guys. Thank you so much. Thank you. That's hysterical.

Wow.

Jb. Well, that was a good one. That's the first time my pit started sweating before we started the podcast.

Yeah, I was a little nervous, too.

But you didn't even know who it.

Was, did you? No, when she came on, I was nervous. When she came on, I was like-.

That was all-star shit.

That.

Is so fucking smart.

It's so scared to ask anything that you're going to... Because I'm going to sound like a dumb shit.

Well, but I mean, that's, I.

Think- You don't need Rachel Maddell for.

That, Sean? Well, we have the title of the podcast to cover all that. We're not claiming to be investigative journalists.

Nobody's having us on MSNBC.

But I'm so glad the way that that went because I knew that obviously it's baked in that it's going to be political. And we try not to be overly political on this show. But so it was nice to have a conversation with somebody who is so political to have not be burn it all down.

Well, and also not just political, but also really fucking smart.

Yeah, really smart. And also, as I said in the thing, it's not left versus right and right versus left. It's really more about everybody's entitled to have their thing. The health of the country. Yeah. It's just about cracking it open. People like her crack it open and shed light on it and go, This is actually not the way this is. This is not actually quite fair. Let's look at it and be honest about it. That's it.

Yeah, that's it.

And she does make the medicine go down real easy, too. I just love the way she shapes stories and points of view. And she helps my brain get a little bit calmer based on the way that she's able to articulate some of the stuff that's going on and maybe some of the things we might need to watch.

Out for. You watch her every night or when she's on?

When she's on, yeah. But I'm watching Nicole Wallace and Chris Hayes.

I know. How much more do you think that you could get from it if you had less gummy? What I'm trying to do is, gummy to news.

I'm tryingI'm so sad. There is a combo there that trying to get right.

What's the right mix?

What's the perfect? Well, because I'm not able to really comprehend a lot of what I'm listening to or looking at, so there needs to be a tonnage of information coming in.

You're high as bejeez.

It's not true, listener.

He's really taking a run at me. I took one on Sunday. It was delicious, and it was amazing. Did you? You had one? I had one on Sunday with Jay. Jason didn't have one. I had one.

Yeah, right. No, I watched.

You watched me.

He watched me. So you guys did have dinner on Sunday without me?

Yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And we do it again, too. Next time you want to go out of town and not be with us.

Yeah, yeah. But you know what? To your point, Will, about the.

Here we go. Fuck me. Nobody can.

See you coming.

A mile away. But you know, Will. It's like left or right. It doesn't matter. Let's hear it, you tour. It doesn't matter where you are left or right. It's like we all have to get along. We all have to let bygones be... Bygones.

Smart. Right. Smart.

Left.

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