Today on Something You Should Know, Why You Probably Don't Do Your Best Work at Work, and How to Fix That. Then Rituals. You have a lot more of them than you realize, and they really do help.

One of the things that researchers suggest rituals help us with, if you think of them, they're very orderly, they're very familiar. Rituals give us a sense of being in the here and now and help us to get ready for what's coming instead of often our own mind stressing.

All also why revenge can be so sweet and how to be healthy, what's proven to work, and the myths to avoid.

For example, there's this idea that, for example, you have to do 10,000 steps a day. That that's the magic number to be healthy. If you look into where that number came from, it was actually made up by a Japanese company that was trying to sell pedometers, those things that measure how far you walk.

All this today on Something You Should Know. As a listener to Something You Should Know, I can only assume that you are someone who likes to learn about new and interesting things and bring more knowledge to work for you in your everyday life. I mean, that's what something you should know was all about. I want to invite you to listen to another podcast called Ted Talks Daily. Now, you know about Ted Talks, right? Many of the guests on something you should know have done Ted Talks. Well, you see, Ted Talks Daily is a podcast that brings you a new TED Talk every weekday in less than 15 minutes. Join host Elise Hugh. She goes beyond the headlines, so you can hear about the big ideas shaping our future. Learn about things like sustainable fashion, embracing your entrepreneurial spirit, the future of robotics, and so much more. Like I said, if you like this podcast, something you should know, I'm pretty sure you're going to like TED Talks Daily, and You get Ted Talks Daily wherever you get your podcast. Something You Should Know, fascinating intel, the world's top experts, and practical advice you can use in your life.

Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Caruthers. Hey, hi. Welcome. Thank you for taking time out of your day to listen to another episode of Something You Should Know. We start today with a question. Where do you get your best ideas? Or where do you do your best work? It's probably not at work. Most of us work in an environment that is full of distraction, and distraction saps our creativity and concentration. This is according to Edward Hallowell, who is one of the real gurus on distraction. He's written several books on the subject. Edward says that when people are asked where they do their best thinking, the number one answer is in the shower. You Usually, you don't have any distractions in the shower. When you're distracted from doing something, it isn't just the distraction that's the problem. Once you go back to whatever you were doing before, it takes a while for your brain to get back to where it was. And sometimes it never gets back to where it was. In order for your mind to work well, you need uninterrupted time away from all the distractions of everyday life. That is something you should know.

Your life is full of rituals, even if you don't know it.

You shake hands, ritual. You celebrate holidays, rituals. Pray, ritual. In fact, religions are full of rituals. Graduation day, ritual. Weddings, funerals, ritual, ritual. There's more. Many of us have daily rituals we perform. Humans seem to like rituals. Maybe we need them. What role and function do rituals serve? Should we have more rituals? Well, that's what Michael Norton is here to discuss. Michael is a professor of business administration at Harvard Business School, and he is author of the book, The Ritual Effect. Hi, Michael. Welcome to something you should know.

Thanks so much for having me.

I'm curious. First of all, you're a professor of business administration, and you wrote a book about rituals. So, bridge that gap for me.

I'm I'm a psychologist by training, and so my favorite thing to do is observe very weird things that humans do. It turns out we do lots of them all the time, so my job is pretty easy. But about a decade ago, I started thinking a lot about a particular type of unusual thing that we do, which are rituals. I started seeing them in many different places in life. For sure, we can think of things like holidays and weddings and funerals as all times when rituals bring us together. But I also started to think about the role of rituals in our own daily lives, the way we get together in the morning, the way we might wind down at night, what we might do at work when we're nervous for a big meeting. It really started to feel like across all of these domains of life, we were turning to ritual as one solution to solve all of these different problems.

Are rituals solving problems, or are they just a comfortable guardrail?

We do see people turning to ritual in particular in times of need. For example, speaking of being nervous for a big meeting or a big presentation, or if you think of athletes or musical performers who often have extremely elaborate rituals that they do before they serve or before they sing, it does seem to be the case that humans, as the stress level goes up, we are more likely to bring rituals to bear, and we're more likely to have more and more complicated medicated rituals. In the world, we can observe really that when we have this problem of anxiety, and we can do lots of things, of course, we can meditate, we can take medication, there's lots of solutions to that problem. But one of the things that people seem to do is turn to ritual as one solution.

Those elaborate rituals that you sometimes see athletes do before they play a game or run a race or serve a ball, why is it that it seems athletes have these rituals? And many athletes don't have rituals, at least that we can see, but some have really elaborate ones. So why is that?

One of our solutions when we feel anxious that is extremely ineffective is we try to tell ourselves to calm down. I can say, Mike, this isn't that big of a deal. Just calm down. It's going to be fine. What the research shows is that that is really one of the worst things you can possibly do because, unfortunately, that's not how we're built. We can't just tell ourselves to feel a certain way and then magically feel that way. That's the problem that we're trying to solve. How do we get out of this sometimes doom spiral of anxiety and I'm going to blow it, and now I'm anxious because I tried to calm down and I can't even calm down. One of the things that researchers suggest rituals help us with, if you think of them, they're very patterned, they're very orderly, they're very familiar. They actually just take up some mental space so that we don't have all of our resources brought to bear on spiraling out of control. Rituals give us a sense of being in the here and now and help us to get ready for what's coming instead of often our own mind stressing.

I imagine a million places, but where do rituals tend to come from? When you see an athlete do his little pre-run ritual, where did he get that?

Interestingly, so the word ritual itself, I think, and this was true for me as well, makes us think of traditions and cultural practices and religious practices with a long history. Those are for sure rituals that have enormously important meaning in our lives. At the same time, what we see in the research is when we ask people about their own rituals, they come up with them themselves pretty often, actually surprisingly often. Even with something like grief, we'll say, You lost someone you loved. What did you do? People will say, Well, we went to the funeral, or whatever their faith prescribes for them to do. But I also did this thing privately to honor them. One woman said for a month, she listened to her mom's favorite song every morning. Now, there's no historical sense that you should listen to your mom's favorite song. This was something that this woman came up with on her own. We see that very often, that what people are doing is freelancing, thinking of things that are meaningful to them, and then building those into their own rituals. It doesn't mean they're not using the cultural rituals and the religious rituals as well.

We still rely on those for a lot, but we also can come from the ground up and make up our own.

It seems that rituals tend to be solitary.

Some are, and then some are with the goal of connecting. We use them to calm myself down, for example, if I have to go give a presentation. But teams also will use rituals, for example, before a big sports match, a soccer team or a football team will have their own rituals. There, what they're trying is actually bond together. So again, interestingly, we use them in very different ways in different aspects of our lives.

It seems a lot of rituals get passed down, traditions I'm thinking of, particularly. But also, I think there's a lot of rituals going on in people's heads and things that they do that they don't talk about. I don't talk about it.

Raphael Nadal can stand in public and do his unusual preserved rituals on television, and we think nothing of it. For ourselves, we're aware that we shouldn't do that in front of a crowd because they might say something is wrong with Mike. And so we do, in fact, often do them privately. I mentioned going into the bathroom to psych yourself up in the mirror. The first thing you do when you go in there is check under the stall to make sure nobody's in there so that you can talk to yourself in the way that you need to talk to yourself. So we have this sense of my rituals are private to me. At the same time, there are many rituals that, by their nature, occur in a group. If you think of family rituals, in the US, you might think of Thanksgiving as a classic family ritual. There, we all know what Thanksgiving is. There's some turkey involved in the family gets together. But even there, people are choosing their own pies. They're choosing what time they eat. They're making it their own and imbuing it with their own traditions. You see often people pulling from history and tradition, pulling in some of their own creations.

Then, as you said, sometimes those then get passed down. The rituals that I do at Thanksgiving with my family, my daughter may very well do some of those with her family if she chooses to have kids in 30 years.

The idea of ritual, I imagine, goes back forever, right? I mean, this is just a human coping thing.

The earliest known text, Gilgamesh, actually has rituals in it. From the very first time that we can see people recording things, we see that people are reporting on their rituals. In fact, if you think about with archeology, how we identify that a group of people had a culture, it's very often we look to see if they bury people ceremonially or not. So dinosaurs, the bones are just all over the place. We know that dinosaurs did not have funerals for each other. There's no pattern to it. But with humans, even thousands and thousands of years ago, we see them burying people very carefully with treasured objects and with care. And that tells us really that that was a very early ritual. And that means that that was a culture or that was a group that mattered to each other. They do go very far back, and they are very deeply embedded in human psychology.

But are rituals also inherent in other creatures?

The experts are mixed on that for sure. The closest speech Theses that many people believe have rituals are elephants who have what appear to be mourning or grieving rituals. They will, not all elephants do this, but if you observe some elephant groups, they will, when one of the elephant dies, they will mourn, in a sense. They will gather and they will mourn publicly in order to grieve the elephant that's gone. Other people say that's just an instinct. It gets to be a discussion and a debate, but it does seem that humans are the most likely to use them across the most contexts, as is very often the case. We're very creative and innovative, so we'll take a tool and then use that tool not just for the original purpose, but for all sorts of purposes.

The rituals that are the tennis player who bounces the ball so many times or those rituals, if you ask the people who do them why they do them, my sense is that there would be some element of good luck in it. It isn't about thinking about something else. It's like, if I don't do it, or maybe it's that if I don't do it, It'll bring bad luck. But it seems that luck plays a role, or perceived luck plays a role in this.

That's right. I think that also points to the fact that it isn't just that rituals are good. I wish I could say, Add 50 rituals to your life and you'll be happy from now on. That really isn't the function that rituals serve. When you ask athletes, for example, about their rituals, they do say, You know what? When I do it, I feel like I'm ready to go, or I feel like I'm in the zone. I feel like I can get done what I needed to get done. However, if they can't do the ritual, if something interrupts them or they don't have time, well, now they're in a worse off state. In fact, they might have been better off to not have a ritual at because now if they can't complete their ritual, they feel off, they feel not ready to go, they feel like they can't do the thing that they're supposed to do. When we have rituals, they have a lot of meaning and emotion built into them. If we do them the way we wanted to do them, they can be very positive, but they also have this risk where if we can't enact them the way we had hoped, they can, in fact, have negative consequences.

Yeah, well, I hadn't thought about that, but yeah, I guess so. But that means you better plan time to do your ritual if you want to do your ritual.

Exactly. You saw in baseball, they instituted a pitch clock, and some of the pushback against the pitch clock was, I'm not going to be able to do all my tapping and glove adjusting in time for the next pitch. People really want to make sure they have time to enact those rituals that matter to them.

We're talking about the importance of rituals in our lives. My guest is Michael Norton, a professor at Harvard Business School and author of the book, The Ritual Effect. Michael, ultimately, as important as rituals seem to be, I think if you ask people, if you do that thing, whether you bounce the ball or whatever it is, we all know it doesn't really do anything scientifically, and yet we cling to them?

If you look very broadly at the function of rituals, it's sometimes the case that we are enacting a ritual with some goal in mind, and sometimes we actually achieve that goal. But at other times, we're enacting a ritual, and it ends up actually helping in a different way. So one example of this that I find very interesting are rain dances, rain rituals. In cultures where there's drought, many independent times, humans have come up with the idea of some dance or ritual to try to encourage rain. Now, we know that it is at least we have no evidence that our movements on the ground will cause it to rain. Why would so many cultures engage in these sorts of activities? Of course, one reason is that in times of drought, what happens is social conflict starts to happen. With scarce resources, I don't take care of you, you don't take care of me, and the fabric starts to fray of our society. When you engage in these rituals together, together. What you're saying is, We have a shared history together. We are a people. And by the way, people have been doing this for hundreds and thousands of years, and they got through it also.

So maybe we can get through it as well. So you can see that they're They're trying to make it rain, and that's probably not going to work. But by enacting these rituals, they're actually accomplishing an incredibly important goal, which is making sure that we stay together rather than drift apart.

Well, that's interesting because that only comes when... It seems like when you look back on it and understand and explain it, but you wonder if the people doing the dance are thinking that, or are they thinking, God, I hope this makes it rain?

It's so interesting It's interesting to think about the inside the ritual versus observing the ritual, whether the experience is the same or not. In fact, if you think about as a social scientist, if I observe a religious ceremony, I'm Irish Catholic, so if I observe a Catholic Mass, everyone in the church is engaged in the exact same actions. We kneel at the same time, we stand at the same time, et cetera. But for some of the people in the church, that is an incredibly deep reflection of their faith. It connects them with their grandparents who had faith as well. It connects them with their spirituality. It may be one of the most important things they do in their life. And literally, the person sitting next to them might be there because their parents made them go. They're doing the exact same actions, but for one person, they are getting this enormous benefit out of it, and the other person can't wait to leave. And I think that's quite important because it means that it isn't just that it's the specific movements that cause something to be a ritual and be meaningful, it's the meaning that we bring to it often that imbues rituals with their power.

It does seem... Well, let me ask you, does it seem that there are plenty of people who probably have few, if any, rituals, I imagine that this isn't a real thing for them.

I was a skeptic of rituals. I'm supposed to be a scientist and this thing. The word ritual for me also, I was a bit skeptical of it. I I will say when people say, I don't have any rituals, the first thing to do is ask your spouse or your children or your coworkers, and they may very well tell you that you've got some that you weren't aware of. But I think the other thing is that it depends how you define them. If I say, Have you ever been out and had liquid in a glass, and everyone around the table lifted up the glass and clicked them together and said a one or two-word phrase? Nearly everyone says, Oh, yeah, of course. Cheers, or in Gaelic, slantcha, whatever your language is. I say, Well, why did you do that? They say, Oh, I see. It doesn't have a functional purpose to clink your glass. All you're trying to do is, in a sense, drink something out of a glass. But we do these rituals, and of course, we see the benefit of it. We're connecting, we're celebrating each other. The words that we use often mean luck or health or good wishes to each other.

It's just liquid in a glass, but with ritual, we can turn it into something that's a little deeper. When you start thinking of your life like that, people say, You know what? I actually do, of course, have rituals that I engage in, that not only do I engage in them, but I actually like them, and I think that they're helpful.

Well, I think church is a good example of I think one of the reasons people go and find comfort is in the rituals, that the rituals mean something to them.

I do think that there's something in us that really responds to ritual. We found the broadly named Seattle Atheist Church. If you think about, atheist church don't usually go together very well. But what's the Seattle Atheist Church? It's a group of people who gather together, often in a church, who enact many of the same behaviors. For many people, religion is very important to them because it connects them with other people. By having a religious service, in a sense, you can connect with others. The Seattle Atheist Church wanted to keep all of those things about religious services. They just happened to not want to include the part about God or a higher power.

Well, just in everyday life, I mean, just think every time you greet somebody for the first time, you shake hands or you hug. I mean, that's a ritual.

I'm astounded. If you look cross-culturally at how people greet each other, the variety in greeting is extremely wide. Even if you think about, do you kiss on the cheek or not? Do you kiss on both cheeks or only on one cheek? Do you shake hands? Do you fist bump? Do you high five? Do you hug? Do you bow? We have all of these across the world, very specific greeting rituals that we use. But the thing that you see is all cultures have one. In other words, we've decided that when we meet someone, we do something to signify that we're meeting. It just varies really widely from place to place.

I find it really interesting that during COVID, people were saying, The handshake is dead, that we just can't do that anymore. We're just spreading germs. When it was appropriate, the handshake came roaring back because people just weren't going to have that.

Even during COVID, you could imagine that during a situation like that, you might say, Well, let's just dispense with this thing altogether. If we can't shake hands or hug, let's just not do anything. But that's not what we did. We came up with a brand new one, which was bumping elbows, which did not exist before and really doesn't exist anymore. Thank God. But it shows how strong the urge was to engage in some greeting ritual rather than just have nothing there. That we literally humans invented a new way to greet that they had not used before when pressed.

Well, it's so clear listening to you and looking at this through your eyes, how important rituals are really to the point of it seems like we We need them, we crave them. They're like guardrails to help us navigate life. They're probably a lot more important than people think they are. I've been speaking with Michael Norton. He is a professor of business administration at Harvard Business School. The name of his book is The Ritual Effect. There is a link to that book in the show notes. I appreciate you coming on and talking about this. Thank you, Michael.

Thank you very much. If people are interested, you can go to michaelnorton. Com There's a rituals quiz that you can take to figure out if you have a lot or have a little.

You already know that exercise in a healthy diet are important to maintain your weight, stay healthy, and live longer. Everybody knows that. But putting it into practice and sustaining it, that is a real challenge. Here with some really great advice to get you and keep you motivated is Jacob Sager-Weinstein. He is a writer whose work has appeared in The New Yorker and on HBO and the BBC. He is author of a book called Be Healthier Now: 100 Simple Ways to become Instantly Healthier. Hey, Jacob, welcome to something you should know.

Thanks for having me. Glad to be here.

Before we get into the specific advice, what is the general outlook, your philosophy? What are you saying to people about getting healthy?

I think there's, broadly I'm speaking two different ways of framing the idea of health. If you say, Jacob, tell me about your health, I could say, Well, I'm a 52-year-old guy with mild asthma. And that's true, that's accurate, because I'm answering in terms of what I am. But it's not very useful because I cannot change what I am. But if instead I say, Well, I got a good night's sleep, I had a healthy breakfast, I took a 30-minute walk after lunch and had more energy when I was done than when I began, then I'm framing my health in terms of not what I am, but what I do. I find that a much more useful way to look at it because I can change what I do at any moment. I think if there's one big takeaway people take, I'd like it to be that.

But the goal is what? To be healthy is always a journey? I mean, obviously, you can't stop, but what does it mean to be healthy?

Well, the funny thing is that I said, don't frame it in terms of what what you are. But if you do enough, if you frame in terms of what you do and you do enough of those things, then it does change what you are. You become healthier, you have more energy, you live longer, you're less likely to get a heart attack or a dementia. For me, the ultimate goal of anything you do to be healthy is to get more pleasure out of life. That might be from living longer, and it might be from being healthier and more with it while you're there.

How does someone decide what to do first what to do that will actually sustain them, that will allow them to keep doing whatever it is they're doing so that they do become healthy?

I'll dive into the nuts and bolts, but let me give you two big picture things that guide me. One of them is to think of health as an ongoing experiment. If you're supposed to eat vegetables and you eat a vegetable and you don't like it, don't conclude, You don't like vegetables. Conclude, I don't like this specific vegetable prepared in this specific way. I'll give you a really, maybe this is a weird example, but apples. If you might think you don't like apples, but there are a bazillion different kinds of apples. There's cox, pippin, galla, delicious. Having one apple doesn't tell you anything about whether you like even other apples, let alone whether you like fruits. Same with exercise. If you try some exercise and you don't like it, that's an experiment. It successfully told you one exercise that you don't like. But that shouldn't be the end of the experiment. It's a first step. That ties into the second overall point that I think is really crucial, which is the value of incremental change. That you are not going to become an athlete by trying one athletic activity today. You might not even like it, like I said.

But if you try it, whether or not you like it, you've moved yourself one step closer to having a sport or an exercise that you actively enjoy. If you keep taking those steps, keep experimenting to find something you like, and then once you like it, gradually and sustainably increasing what you're doing, you are on a path that will take you to a much healthier and more sustainable place than if you just said, Okay, I'm going to take 30 minutes of this thing I hate and just grind through it.

What I've noticed is that a lot of people, and I've done this in my life, to dabble in healthy. They buy an exercise bike, ride it for three days, and that's the end of that, or they start walking after dinner for a couple of weeks, and that's the end of that. Then they don't really do anything else. They just decide, Exercise is not for me, and give up.

Right, which is totally natural and understandable. Let me dive into a few specifics because one thing that can help you keep up with it is if it's a habit. Obviously, habits by their nature, by definition, are things you don't even think about doing. You just do them. I've experimented. I found that running is a sport that I generally enjoy, but even so, it's effort, and it's not always easy for me to stick with it. As silly as it sounds, I found that if I take my running clothes out at night and I put them where I'm going to see them first thing in the morning and just automatically put them on while I'm sleepy and not thinking clearly, then just the fact that I've got those running clothes on makes me much more likely to go running. In a sense, what I've is I've made each step smaller. I don't have to decide to go running, find my clothes, get going. I've made as many of those steps mindless and automatic. I just get in the habit of putting out my running clothes in the morning. It shouldn't make a difference. The health benefits of exercise should get me going every day.

But as silly as it sounds, just the habit of already being dressed for running makes a huge difference.

Let's talk about your concept of thinking healthy, because I think people often think healthy is something you do in between the fun stuff rather than incorporating it because, as we discussed, healthy doesn't necessarily equate to fun. So maybe a shift in mindset is important. So let's talk about thinking healthy.

One thing that I think is a useful distinction is between physical activity and exercise. And we think about exercise like we've been saying as this unpleasant thing that you've got to do if you don't want to die. But the fact is, if I spend 10 minutes running due to flee in circles, or I spend 10 minutes chasing my dog around the yard, those are equally good for my body. My body doesn't really care why I'm doing them. But the one that doesn't feel like exercise, the one that is just doing stuff, the chasing the dog, I actually enjoy, and it's just as good for me. The more you can find ways to think in terms of physical activity. For example, when you park, if you drive to work, take the farthest parking space from your office rather than looking for the closest. And automatically, you've now built in a few extra minutes of walking into your day. If your building has multiple floors, get in the habit of pushing the button in the elevator for one floor below where you actually want to go and walk up that last flight of steps. It still counts, even if you're not in in your sports clothes, that's physical activity that is good for your body.

But how good? That's the thing I think a lot of people struggle with is, is going up one flight of stairs really going to matter? So screw it.

I think sometimes there's certain myths that get in our way. There's this idea that, for example, you have to do 10,000 steps a day. That that's the magic number to be healthy. If you look into where that number came from, it was actually made up by a Japanese company that was trying to sell pedometers, those things that measure how far you walk. It wasn't really based on any science. When they've actually done real studies of this, they found that going up to about 4,400 steps a day has a big jump in your life expectancy. If you keep going past that, if you go up to about 7,500 steps, that gets better for you with every step. But once you actually hit that 7,500 steps, it doesn't hurt you to keep walking But there's not really any gains they've seen in life expectancy beyond that. Even more broadly, what they've often found is that there's diminishing returns with almost any exercise you do, which means that the most benefits you get are when you start doing it. If you walk up two flights of steps, that's better than one. But if you walk up one flight of steps, you've still gotten most of the benefits or a good chunk of those benefits just from that one flight.

And most importantly, you've gotten more exercise than you would have if you had walked up zero flights of steps. If you can stick with one flight a day, that's great. If you can add an extra flight once a week or once a month, then over the course of the year, that really adds up. If you can just do a little bit healthier stuff today than you did last week, that really adds up.

One of the things that sabotages people, I think, is, well, it's It's food because if you have it in the house, you're going to eat it. If you don't have it in the house, you're not going to eat it. Talk about the hot-cold empathy gap and how that works.

It's a weird quirk of human nature that When you're full, it's surprisingly hard to predict how you'll behave when you're hungry. That seems to be true of all emotions. If you're calm, it's harder to predict how you'll be when you're angry. Believe it or not, they've actually done a study where they had people study things underwater while scuba diving, and they found they could remember them better when they went scuba diving again than they could on dry land. There's just something about our brains that has a hard time picturing ourselves and how we react in other circumstances. Where that comes into health and healthy eating is if you're at the grocery store and you're feeling full, you're going there after lunch, and you see a big bag of candy, you think about how you feel in that moment. And because you're full, you can resist that big bag of candy. So you think, I'll take it home, I'll have one piece every day. It'll be fine. Then the next day, when you're actually hungry, you eat fistfuls of it and you think, Why didn't I know I was going to do this? Why did yesterday me do this to me?

And it's because yesterday me was in a different state of mind. To some degree, that's inevitable. It's just part of human nature. But there are some things you can do to get around it. If you have plans for what you're going to buy, try making those plans when you're hungry and seeing How you feel, seeing what you think you're going to do. If you make plans while you're full, take another look at them later when you're hungry. If you are shopping when you're full, then think about, Okay, last time I was hungry, how did I react to this bag of candy? If I reacted badly, why do I think I'm going to do things differently this time? That's maybe as close as you can then get to picturing yourself in that alternate decision-making state.

Yeah, that is such an interesting thing is when you are full, it's so hard to imagine hunger. It's like, Well, no, I'm so full, I can't eat for days. But that's not true, and you'll be eating again soon. But it is that weird quirk that we can't imagine ourselves in the state we're not in at the moment.

Sometimes the best you can do is to, I would say, lay healthy traps for yourself. I got to a point at one point where if I was writing, if I would stop and think, I'd get up and wander around my flat, and I'd end up in my kitchen grabbing a fistful of chocolate chips. I knew I was going to do that. Even though I couldn't stop myself from being hungry in that moment, what I could do in a more rational moment was move the chocolate chips out of reach and put a bowl of washed grapes in my fridge right at eye level. I would I still do that thing where I would get up, walk to the kitchen, open the fridge. But the thing that was right in front of me, the thing that was easiest to grab, was now a healthy snack. I was able to hack my hot, cold empathy gap by doing that.

Something that I'd like you to address, and this is something that I think happens to everybody who tries to get healthy. They're going to eat healthier, they're going to exercise, they're going to do something, and inevitably, they fall off the wagon. Something goes wrong, and they don't do what they thought they were going to do, and then they throw in the towel.

Okay. They actually did a study of 60,000 gym members to find out when they stopped showing up to the gym or when they missed one workout session, what was the most effective incentive to get them to come back to another? I mentioned that it was 60,000 people involved in this study, because when I tell you the results, you're not going to believe it. I want to emphasize this was a big study. The thing that got people to go back after missing a workout was a payment of nine cents, which is insane. Again, increasing your lifespan, improving your health, that's not an incentive to get back on it and get back to the gym. But nine cents is. I can tell you in my own experience, when I've had really little crazy small things of accountability like that, it It does work. Maybe it's because it's so small, it feels almost silly, and it makes you just want to say, Okay, I'm going to go back to it. But it does seem to work. What you can do, and what people do sometimes, is they make bets with friends. They make accountability bets where you and I make a deal.

I say, I'm going to go to the gym three times every week. If I don't, I'm going to owe you 25 cents. Obviously, the 25 cents is not a financial incentive, but maybe the embarrassments, the silliness of having to actually pay you that quarter could be enough to get me to go back to the gym when I miss it.

I know there's advice about when you should exercise, but the best advice I've ever heard about when you should exercise is to exercise when you can. If it's in the afternoon and you can stick to that, great. If it's in the morning, great. If it's at night, great. As long as you do it is than not doing it.

Absolutely. I think that's true about most fitness advice in general. It seems like every year, some new superfood hits the headlines of this specific berry is the best berry for you. But I think that the healthy food that you will actually enjoy and eat is the best healthy food for you. Now, I am happy to talk about some of the science about what time of day to exercise, if that's interesting. But I do agree with you that the far and away best time to exercise is whenever you can walk work it into your schedule.

But assuming you're available, what's the science say about time of day?

Okay, so there is some evidence that exercising in the morning before you've had any food may help you burn more fat. There is some evidence that exercising either in the afternoon or right after you've had a meal may help you control blood sugar. There is definite evidence that doing a vigorous exercise less than an hour before you're going to bed will make it harder for you to sleep. Based on all those things, depending on what you do or don't want, if you have the flexibility, that might help you schedule your exercise.

I I always found it interesting how many people just really can't find the motivation or the desire to do things to improve their health until they get some bad news from the doctor, or maybe a good friend or family member gets some bad news from the doctor, that it's that dreadful news that works to motivate.

Yeah, it definitely is another weird quirk of human nature. I think the flip side, insofar as you can make it work for you, is to try to remember in the good times where you're not facing a disaster, what you want to exercise for or what you want to be healthy for. There's a classic story of the guy who wants to quit smoking. In the pocket where he would normally keep his packet of cigarettes he puts a photo of his daughter. Every time he automatically reaches for a cigarette, he ends up with that photo and he remembers why he wants to quit. Even if you're not trying to quit something, if you're trying to start something, I think that can help, too. If you want to exercise, not just because of some vague idea that it's good for you or you're supposed to, but you want to exercise so you can be hiking with your grandchildren when you're 80, or if you want to exercise so you can visit that city you've dreamed of visiting a year from now and have the energy to walk around all day. I think sometimes having a specific positive image in mind can help keep you going.

Talk about some other things that you have, in doing your research for this, and found that maybe people haven't heard before of some advice that run through three or four tips that people could use.

Sure. Something that really changed the way I eat. For most of my life, I have been a really fast eater. I just wolfed down my food, which is a bad habit I picked up as a teenager and carried through my whole life. I saw the advice, and as simple as it is, it's made a big difference to me, to put down my fork while I'm chewing. I pick up the fork, I put the food in my mouth, and I put the fork down till I'm ready for the next bite. As simple as that is, that has made me a much more mindful eater. I eat more slowly. I notice as a result of eating slowly when I'm full, so I eat less. I'm not just mindlessly shoving the next bite into my mouth, so I'm actually enjoying my food more than I was before. To me, something like that, like mindful eating, which isn't just healthy but actually is pleasurable, that makes me enjoy food more rather than less is the health advice that I love to find that I think we're all seeking out. Along those lines, another tip is I think we have this stereotype that healthy food is bland.

That's because too much salt, too much sugar, too much fat. Yes, those are all bad for you. If you have too much, you need to cut them down. But most herbs, pretty much almost any herb you can name, basil, cumin, oregano, they're actually healthy for you. Garlic, onions, those are things that are good for your heart. There's evidence that they can reduce the risk of cancer. There's evidence that chili, fresh chili, changes your taste buds in a way that makes you crave less salt. Now, I'm a wimp when it comes to spicy foods, so I can't follow this tip myself. But if you like spicy foods and you can substitute chili for salt, that's a virtuous cycle. The more you do it, the less salt you will crave. And chili itself is healthy as well. I will say another bit of good news is that if you like coffee and tea, there is evidence that those are probably on the balance good for you. If you have too much, you lose sleep, you get stressed. But generally, about 2-5 cups a day of coffee or tea are actively good for you. They reduce the risk of dementia, they reduce the risk of stroke.

There was one study that moderate coffee intake actually made people less likely to commit suicide. So there's evidence that it improves your outlook. Those are things that people sometimes think of as vices that are actually virtues.

Well, what I like about your advice and suggestions, they're fact-based, so they're backed by science, but they're also relatively simple. They take some commitment, but not a lot, and to put your toe in the water. I think it makes the whole idea of trying to be more healthy pretty easy. I've been talking to Jacob Jacob Sager Weinstein. He is a writer whose work has appeared on HBO and the BBC and The New Yorker. He is author of a book called Be Healthier Now: 100 Simple Ways to become Instantly Healthier. There's a link to that in the show notes. Thanks for being here, Jacob.

Okay, thanks. I appreciate you taking the time to talk to me.

You've heard the saying that revenge is sweet. When you think about it, revenge is harsh, so why is it considered sweet? Well, scientists say that just the thought of revenge lights up the feel-good regions of our brains. What they did was hook up some people to a scan and then played some games. When one player was cheated, that player was given the option to punish their opponent. The thought of doing that proved to be scientifically sweet, stimulating the same areas in the brain that sex and chocolate affect. Sometimes, players even opted for revenge at their own peril, proving that revenge can cloud our judgment. That is something you should know. I'd love it if you would share this episode, just in the next day or two, when you have a moment, share this episode right there on the app that you're listening to. There's some way, easy way. There's a share button, there's an easy way to share it, and send it to someone you know. I'm Mike Herbrothers. Thanks for listening today. To something you should know. The Bigger Pockets portfolio of podcasts are worthy of your investment. We're having a real conversation as real real estate investors.

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