But the audience was like, oh, and they were really disturbed. People were like, those jokes were really upsetting. Did you try and kill yourself?

Can we talk about this for a little bit? Yeah. Okay.

We can talk about anything.

I'm not trying to move. I have a weird thing. I need a right-hand. What if I do this, I need the right.

And we're going to get to that. Hey there, it's me, Rain Wilson, and I want to dig into the human experience. I want to have conversations about a spiritual revolution. Let's get deep with our favorite thinkers, friends, and entertainers about life, meaning, and idiocy. Welcome to the Soul Boom podcast.

When you decided to put a picture of yourself on the back, did you say, I'm going to go for author, or did you already have this picture and it worked out? Because this is an I have a book picture. I'm cupping, cradling my tiny A shiny face, an enormous forehead. But one thing is, if you knew you were doing it for a book, a lot of times, if you have glasses, there would be something.

Yeah, that is always good.

Yeah. I don't know. It's just this fun little thing we could clip and talk about.

The main reason that you're here As that Kártek saw you perform a set. He was really moved by and touched by a joke that you made, my producer. And that was you were ripping and you just offhand said, By the way, if I said to you right now that I believed in God, I would lose half the audience. It's way cooler and edgier to be, I'm paraphrasing off of what he said, to say that you're an atheist. But if I told you what I really believed and like, sincerely believed, and you're going toward the spiritual side of life, that you would risk losing a big chunk of the audience. That's a terrible, terrible paraphrase. But for me, It hits home, personally, because here I was an insecure class clown. I just wanted to be adored. I moved to Hollywood. All of a sudden, I was getting film and TV work. All of a sudden, I was doing little comedy theater stuff here and there. I wasn't really doing stand-up. Getting in with the comedy community of the stuff that I was working on. Then, shift a few years into the office, all of a sudden, I was working with Oprah Winfrey, and I started Soul Pancake, and I was having spiritual conversations.

My personal faith, my Baha'i faith, became very, very important to me. Prayer and meditation became important to me. Researching spiritual ways of being in the world became crucial to me. I started sharing about this, and the people in the comedy community recoiled in some very real ways. People did not know what the fuck to make about the guy playing Dwight Schrute, that big, funny, weird-looking guy. All of a sudden, he's talking about God and the soul and the meaning of life and interviewing Oprah Winfrey. Like, what? There is nothing less sexy in the comedy world than having one foot in the spirituality world and speaking sincerely about what you believe. Right. Just going off of that shred of that joke that I did not hear, it was just-It was the only time I ever said it.

I vaguely remember. It was something that was on my mind on the way to that show. I want to also just acknowledge because you said something that I feel like there's one little switch missing of you saying people in the comedy community do not like to hear this or the spirituality, it's either too serious or something. What I have found is there's a difference between preaching what you believe and preaching your point of view. When you express religion, God, faith, atheism, whatever it might be, people might be feeling that you're telling me that I'm wrong or what I need to think, as opposed to saying, Here's how I see this, and this is how I feel about it. I don't remember what I said. I do remember the feeling. This is a bit hyperbolic, I guess, but people either believe in God and God is real. God is great. I live for God. They're here. Then there's a huge gap where not many people live. Then over here, it's, You fucking idiot. You believe in a ghost upstairs who created the world in seven days? It very much feels like politics, too, where it's like, Where's the centrist mentality?

Where's the maybe? Where's the I don't know? Where's the probably not? There's such certainty that this is or is not.

Well, I want to push back on that a little bit because the fastest growing religion in the United States is spiritual but not religious. And many of the spiritual but not religious have a very different conception of God where it's much more like the spirit of nature or of just general love in the world. And many of them are agnostic. Many of them are like, I don't really know. The survey that I read, hardcore atheists are less than 15%, and there's almost equal amount of agnostics of people that don't know. I feel like the spiritual but not religious and the agnostic do make up that center, and that that's a pretty big portion of the population.

That very much makes sense to me. There is a traditional view of God, and there's many, many different gods. Sure.

But there's a- The Abrahamic view. I call it in the book Sky Daddy.

Well, not just Abrahamic view. I don't know enough about it, but there's also the The Quran site.

But Islam is an Abrahamic religion. Is it?

I thought Abrahamic religion came in- Abraham in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

In Islam, it's called the- Oh, those all come from the Old Testament? Yeah, and it all comes the people of the book, the Islam sees itself very much as a fulfillment of that lineage.

Then the Abrahamic God is- Patriarchal. Is where it becomes something to follow I mean, in a quite literal sense, just governmental policies that are based off of religion. But there are people that are living their life for religion, and then there's people that don't. To me, I don't know. I guess I don't understand it well enough, but I feel like I'm a spiritual person. I feel like life has meaning within its life that isn't necessarily otherworldly. I think Avatar does the best version of that. Everything is connected in a I think that's beautiful and spiritual. But talking about religion is taboo now. Do you disagree?

Well, again, I want to separate religion from spirituality because, yes, there is a lot of taboo about talking about religion, and that bleeds over into spirituality. I think, especially in the comedy world, where if you talk about spirituality, people in the comedy world are like, Oh, they really want to talk about religion. I I bet they're going to try and convert me, like you say, or preach to me or something like that. But I say in Soul Boom, hold it up.

Faster.

Cover. I say in Soul Boom, I feel like we've thrown the spiritual baby out with the religious bathwater. We threw the religious bathwater out, but we've also lost a lot of the beautiful, rich wisdom traditions and meaning from the world's great faith traditions that we could benefit from, individually and societally.

Would you say that spirituality then is perhaps the philosophy of religion and the intention behind it and not necessarily the miracle of it?

I think that's very well said.

Yeah, I think that's fair. I have a hard time connecting Judaism with spirituality. Not that they're not connected. They don't overlap somewhere.

You only feel of it as a It's a cultural experience for you?

I used to do a bit where I talk about I'm a Jewish Democrat because that's how I was born. I don't know anything. Just like, these are the boxes that I was told to fit in. The tradition and the culture remain important to me. But the religious aspect of it. Judaism, to me, is much more traditional than it is religious. I do find tradition and spirituality to go hand in hand because there is There's a familiarity in the tradition. I'll meet Jewish people and not know they're Jewish and just feel like I know them. Some people might say, We've met in a previous life. Some people might just say, Oh, that's an East Coast or Midwest Jew. We're all this certain type of thing, whatever it is. But there's a safety and a comfort in tradition. Tradition could mean a Sater dinner, or it could sitting around the house and everybody complaining about whatever they're complaining about and nobody taking negativity from it. Growing up, to me, my favorite holiday was Christmas because we had family in California and in Cleveland, where I'm from. The people from California had off work during the Christmas holiday, so they would travel into Cleveland for Christmas.

So we all got together for Christmas. So on Hanica, we would get a gift, and it was nice, and it was fun, and we lit the candles. But when I think back about my favorite time of being with family during the holiday season, without a doubt, it was going to my grandma's place with Christmas tree and the Santa Claus candles and bagels, and It just felt like I love Christmas. Because of that, we even had stockings. We would write to Santa. We would leave cookies and root beer.

Did your family ever have any Jewish prayers prayers or high holidays?

We went to temple for the high holidays, which always felt like a thing we had to do, at least for me, I remember it that way. It was nice because it was doing something. But I was bar mitzvahed. I went to Hebrew school until I was 13. I became a bar mitzvah, and then I had the option of going through a confirmation, which is basically, do you want to do two more years of this or do you want to be done? I was like, I don't want to do it anymore. I've been feeling differently the past couple of months about Judaism, which is not to answer your question and is not necessarily something to get into right now.

No, I want to get into it right now. Please go there.

Antisemitism has been around since before I was around. I'm fortunate to admit that my experience with it, though it wasn't rare, it was very, very rarely. I felt threatened. I always felt it was ignorant, or I felt people don't know what they're saying. Jew them down was just this person probably doesn't even realize the origins of what that means. I did I really feel that threatened by it. I do now, both from anecdotal observations as well as messages and experiences that I'm having firsthand. It's not just uncomfortable and mean. I don't feel bullied. I feel threatened. The lack of acknowledgement of it from, I'll just call it social media, but anything you might watch, the connection of my, and I don't use this term as a joke, and I don't know if I've ever said this word, breatherin, my Jewish breatherin, and the support that we have been sending each other, and whether it's posts that are public or messages of support or calls has made me really appreciate what feels like a tribe and feels like a safe space. But there was always a very surface-level Jewish, Jewish Jewish. Oh, yeah. Cool, man. You find the Afikomen.

Just little Jewish jokes that have so much more depth now and inclusion now. When you grew up Jewish, you grew up a certain way. Not everybody. But that's where that idea like, Oh, have we met in a previous life? I'll meet a Jewish person. They may not have gone to Jewish summer camp, but they probably did. They probably can't have dairy. They're probably very close with one of their parents, if not both of their parents. They They probably are funny. There's something that Judaism offers that is not the religion, but the tradition. Jewish people happen to be very close with their grandparents. A lot of my Jewish friends, if their grandparents are still around, I know their grandparents because when I've gone to their house, their family is there. I know their family. I will go into somebody's home, and if I have to take a shit, pardon me, a poop, I will feel comfortable. I feel comfortable pooping around a Jewish person.

One of my best-You would never poop in a goy house?

I would poop in a goy house, but I would say, may I please use your bathroom, as I have to take a... I have to go poop. What's the bathroom that's furthest away from everybody? A friend of mine who grew up in Texas who didn't know a Jewish person until he moved to Los Angeles in his late 20s. I remember he said, I've been I was friends with him for over 10 years. Two years ago, he said, I was on the phone with my mom on speaker for something. We were driving somewhere, and my mom said something about her bowel movements. David, after we hung up, goes, You guys are so comfortable talking about poops. I go, Do you not have Jewish friends? This is what we talk about. To say Judaism, it's cultural that we talk about poops, is a joke version of it. But there is a shorthand of being very direct, very comfortable talking about what is bothering them, what is aching them. With When that comes that thing of understanding your needs and wants.

I need to feel safe. There's an intimacy in having a bold, unabashed, unadorned conversation. Absolutely. When you have the stereotype, like wasp house, which I didn't grow up in, but the stereotype, which very rarely exists, but it does exist.

Are you talking about a colder?

Yeah, cold, emotional, where things are not said and left unspoken.

More so emotionless, that sounds like, not emotional.

Did I say emotional?

Yeah, you're saying like not showing emotional. You're an emotional thing.

You don't show emotions. Emotions are suppressed. There are things that can and cannot be spoken about. That does not breed an intimacy where you can talk about your shits with your mom. Yeah.

Whether it's shits or whether it's-Giggles. Giggles or whether it's threats that you're getting. There is such a bond. I feel the way with comedians, too. There's a bond with comedians. There's a bond with Jewish people. It's It's community. Spirituality feels to me in the same category as wellness. Spirituality feels like eating well, appreciating life, kindness, being in touch with your needs and your wants, where religion feels like having answers to things outside of science. Religion is I guess the only through line is the meaning of life and why are we here? Is it to prove to... You talk in your book about the twin babies, and one is like, I can't wait to get out of here and experience this wonderful life. And the other is like, there's nothing but carnage and blood and horrible things out there. Stay in here as long as you possibly can.In the womb, yeah.In the womb, yeah. And one is wanting to live life, and the other is scared of what's on the other side. And the metaphor that I believe you were saying was, we don't know what's on the other side, it might be great, while the baby thought it would be a bad thing.

The religious side is believing that after life, there is something better for you. And whether or not that is the case doesn't feel like the same category as spirituality, which is just about being in here in the womb right now. When you start talking about what happens after life, that, to me, feels more religious than spiritual. Do you disagree?

I disagree. I feel like considering the journey of the soul is very much attached to spirituality, and you do not need to be of any faith to deeply ponder the fact that we are spiritual beings having a human experience, and we're going to lose these meat suits in 10, 20, 50 years, however long it is. We're all in the process of dying, and In every spiritual tradition, there is a continuity. There is a life continuity. You said better. I don't know, like better than this world, different than this world, perhaps more advanced than this world. This world is a hell of lot more advanced than what it was like for a baby in the womb in the Baha'i faith. That's the metaphor that carries through that when we move to the next plane of existence, by the way, there's no heaven or hell.

We just continue our spiritual journey. But even that, what you're saying, the difference between spirituality and religion sounds like that. You are speaking, and I know you don't know, but you are speaking with a certainty that there's no heaven or hell, but there is this other thing that you can't define. It's almost like you're saying spirituality is religion without definition, which is just its own religion then. Religion is just establishing-I'm trying to find...

In Soul Boom, I'm trying to find a universality that connects us all. We're Jewish, Baha'i, born again, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, we're all on a spiritual journey. What can we agree on? Let's focus on those and try and draw the tools that we need to make our lives richer, healthier, more vibrant, more meaningful. I skirt. I mean, I'm a Baha'i, but I try in the soul boom world to skirt any religious doctrine necessarily. But that's why I asked about your Jewish upbringing. I'm interested in knowing what fed your soul being a Jewish kid in Cleveland.

I grew up with such love. My aunts, my uncles, my cousins, my grandparents, my parents, my brother, the pets. My mom just doing, Oh, I love to... To our animals. I grew up with such love that I feel so connected to my family. I don't think this is a breakthrough observation, but when you love somebody, I have some friends that I feel like I love some of my friends I love. It feels like family, and I feel very connected to them. It's just such love and connection. Yeah, I don't know. I'm feeling myself wanting to define something that I don't even understand, but I am feeling introspective at the moment of like... I feel like sometimes love is a choice, and sometimes it's not. When it feels like it's not a choice, it's because this person makes me... That same thing I said with, Oh, I feel like we've met in a previous life. If I feel a certain way with a person, it makes me feel like I love them. I don't know how much of that is ego. I only love them because they make me feel good. So that feels a little cheap.

But something that everybody in my family has in common is, They make me feel good. Is that why I love them? I don't know.

So I would say, Can we, and the challenge is, can you and me Can we, in our lives, expand that definition of family? Can it be a slightly larger circle? Can we, humans, who oftentimes, not always, but oftentimes, greatly love our biological families and our extended families? Can we extend that to our friends, to the people that we work with, to our workplaces? Can we extend that to immigrants that might look different than us? Can we extend that to people that might be suffering halfway across the globe, to our Haitian brothers and sisters, to our Gazan brothers and sisters, to our Israeli brothers and sisters in a universal way? That's the step that I hope we can be endeavoring to take, to be pushing ourselves, to be pushing our boundaries and our envelope about what is acceptable and how can we deepen that compassion day by day, week by week, month by month, country by Have you been able to do that? I struggle with it. I'm trying. It is part of the goal that I set to myself is month by month, I want to become more and more compassionate to people that are different than myself and expand my definition of what is family.

Does that mean something that's actionable? For example, I'm going to help these people find a home? Sure. Or does that mean... Because that is something that you could control, but you're You're only doing that. Might you be doing that because of the challenge you set for yourself? At what point does that challenge then bring in that feeling of, I'm not doing it because I want to, I'm doing it because it's real. The way I want to support my friends and family is very real. When I see somebody on the street that needs help, maybe I'll say, Can I go buy you something to eat? And that is real in that moment, but I'm not walking away feeling for them past that moment. I could make the choice, but go every day buy that person lunch, or try and find a job and let them stay with you until whatever. There's a difference between the actionability and the feeling. I'm curious, has your conscious choice to start being more actionable and intentional, has that then created within you an actual different feeling of love for strangers?

Faith without works is dead, is from the Bible, from James in the Bible. I feel like in the Buddhist tradition, you start with right mind and it moves into right action. You set your intention. Your intention then harnesses your feeling, or maybe you do it the other way. Maybe you harness your feeling and set your intention, and then that reveals itself in greater action. If it doesn't reveal itself in action, it's just a warm, fuzzy feeling in your chest like, Oh, I love the children of the Ukraine. It's part of that process. It's feeling, mind, and action. Am I great at it? No. I want to get better and better at it. I'm better now than I was five years ago. I'm better five years ago than I was 15 years ago. I'm trending in the right direction. Having these conversations, I think, is an asset toward that movement. That's why I want to build a spiritual revolution. That's why we need a spiritual revolution is the subtitle of the book Hold It Up. Hold It Up. Hold It Up. And I'll put it down. Go ahead.

I want to ask one more question about it because I know we've gone forth of timing stuff, but people that are part of your life but not close, what types of things can you do to love them more? What actual tangible, not just the- I I think you can listen to them and hear their story and empathize with what they're going through.

Because I think that it all comes down to compassion. I think it's something... It is a muscle that can be exercised. Compassion It can be exercised just like a muscle in the gymnasium, and that you can do on a daily basis. Then hopefully, it leads to little actions here and there. It doesn't mean that you give up your family and move to Ukraine or move to Gaza or move to Israel and start working with people. But you make tiny little changes that move the ball forward.

Something I got from my mom that I like is my mom talks to everybody. My mom will start conversations with people in line. She'll be asking so many questions. People love my mom.

I love that.

I got that from her. My mom gets stuff. Even before COVID, when it's easier to change your flight, if you ever need to If I needed to get a ticket changed, my mom would get a change with no fee. She's calling, she's making best friends with them. I remember looking, I want to have that type of thing. But it got in a thing where you start schmoozing with people. There was one girl I dated, and I understand that it wasn't for her, but she got frustrated that everywhere we go, it takes so long because you're talking to everybody. I'm asking them questions, and I'm missing social cues. Maybe I'm asking something that's too personal, but I still feel like it was okay. Everything was okay. I remember I was at Dupar's before it closed in the valley, and there was a person in there that was, one might say, was a little odd, and I was so curious about this person. My friends were in there and they wanted to leave. I'm having a 20-minute conversation. I'm just like, What is that voice that you're doing? Having this conversation with this person that they felt they seemed a lot less odd once you got to know them.

I can't say that the reason I was doing that was because of love or morality, but I was very interested in talking to people. I like that you said that because it's like, I do think of my mom as one of the most loving people ever, and she does listen to everybody.

But a genuine interest and curiosity about other people is the perfect way to start. Hey, everybody. It's me, Raine. I want to share something with you. I have gone through periods of my life where I have felt a little bit lost in the chaos, in the anxiety. I often am searching for some clarity, so I want to share something really special. It's an app called Waking Up. This is founded by the great Sam Harris. You've heard of Sam Harris. He's also a neuroscientist. Waking Up is an incredible arsenal, is the best way to describe it, of mindfulness, meditation, so many resources for mental health, all grounded in secular techniques. It has approaches baked into it that actually work. There's so many different tools for my spiritual toolbox, and I really can't recommend it more highly. Soul Boom listeners can get their first month for free, plus you'll save $30 on the in-app price. If you go to wakingup. Com/soul boom, you can start your free month today. That's wakingup. Com/soul boom to get a free month plus $30 off. One of the main reasons I was so I'm drawn to having you here, besides the fact that you're delightful and funny and brilliant and a great basketball player and rapper, too, is that recently you came to diagnose yourself with the help of experts, that you were autistic and on the spectrum.

I find this absolutely fascinating. I saw the I Am Phenomenal film, which was great, but how were you led? It had to do with Bill Lawrence? Is that right? The TV writer?

Yeah. The I Am Phenomenal video that I put on YouTube is a story that was the inciting incident to me getting the proper diagnosis, which I had hypothesized for maybe a year or two before then. But also, I don't know, probably not. Does it matter? Why does it matter? I'm also feeling, I don't know if vulnerable is the right word, but I'm feeling insecure at the moment because it's something that I don't shy away from. I'm not secretive about this, but I don't love talking about it, and I will. There's just a lot of judgment. This isn't a victim's sad story.

I just want to say, too, and I'll just address that because just straight up, I get how and why that would make you feel vulnerable. You've probably read a lot of YouTube comments and people giving a lot of shit and being skeptical and even mean. This has been a thing for me because for my whole life, I struggled with mental health issues. I never really talked about it. It's been very vulnerable for me as well on this journey to come out and talk about anxiety, depression, suicidal ideation, loneliness, addiction, and what a role that played through my 20s and 30s, but still to this day. I It's very meaningful to people as well because they're like, Oh, thank God you spoke about that. I'm also neurodivergent. You're so successful. You've got a stand-up career and an acting career. I think these conversations are really important.

I did a TV show a few years ago called As We See It, and it was about three 20 somethings on the autism spectrum living together to find independence and relationships and work and et cetera. After that show and befriending so many people, so many neurodivergent people. I became more comfortable being open and talking about it. But there still is this thing inside that was When I first was diagnosed and I started talking about it, I had some people in my life that were like, Yeah, I figured. Then some people were like, That's not what autism is. I have said this before, but there's such a dirty feeling that I found myself, and that's on me. I found myself, instead of just expressing myself or trying to better understand the way I communicate and how others could communicate more efficiently with me, I found myself in positions where I was almost selling. No, you don't understand. You don't know some of the things that I don't show. You don't know some of the things when I'm alone. You don't understand all the special schools and special classes and isolation things when I was a kid.

It was like, What am I selling you on how long it took me to put on some fucking socks? It just felt so dirty. I to where I stopped talking about it. But I didn't stop reading about it. I didn't stop trying to better understand. What I've learned about myself and my lack of awareness, not that my awareness has so much broadened, but I have a better understanding of like, Oh, I can't possibly know this. It's changed my life. I have, as you said, it may be beneficial to some people. I have decided that, I don't want to steer away from it. I love talking about all of these observations and tools, which I'd love to get into, but I'm dancing around at the moment because I wanted to be able to do it without qualifying it as autism, because it's not all autism. I hate the idea of speaking for autism as opposed to speaking to my experiences which relate to autism when it does. There are some classic-But you yourself said you were relieved when you got that diagnosis because it's like, Oh, that explains a lot of your OCD. The not picking up on the social cues, the taking things literally, the not having a difficult time adapting situations, my sensitivities to sounds and smells and textures, my obstacles in empathizing with points of view that I don't have intuitively.

Me not understanding that just because I'm not uncomfortable doesn't mean that they're not. Me not understanding that even though I'll say, Hey, I'm feeling vulnerable and I'm uncomfortable and setting my own boundaries, other people either don't want to or don't know how to do that. Me learning how to give people a safe space, not because it's my responsibility, but because if I don't, then they're not going to connect with me. I have a bit where I talk about... I was diagnosed with autism in my 30s. I have a bit where I talked about, I didn't realize I didn't have friends growing up until recently. I always thought everybody was busy. I just believe that I can't hang out, Rick. I used to have... Sometimes I would ask my kids would make excuses, and I would say, Can my mom talk to your mom? I'm not embarrassed or ashamed about it because I was a kid, and my mom was my champion. But just the idea of just missing... That's that thing. That one little thing that the audience is missing. Oh, he's joking. This obvious comedian doing a performance is joking, obviously, but because they're missing that, now the whole thing flops.

Now, do I stop doing that or do I to let them in on it and how? The autism diagnosis changed my comedy. Getting back to the Bill Lawrence of it, who gave me my first job and is a big-time show creator now. He saw me do standup and he said-He did Scrubs, he did Ted Lasso.

He's done a lot of big hit shows.

He said, after he saw me do stand-up the day we met, he goes, I love how comfortable you are in uncomfortable moments. I knew he said that as a compliment, but I also thought, what was uncomfortable? I was just doing a Will Smith impression or whatever the fuck. What's uncomfortable about this? I wasn't assaulted. I believed him, but what is uncomfortable? For the longest time, I had this reputation in comedy of like-You'd replay the tape and go, I don't see what's uncomfortable. It's just like a fucking massage, guys. I have and definitely had this reputation of I like to Make people uncomfortable and make stuff awkward. It's an operational cost, people getting awkward, but that's not what I'm trying to do. I want people to be like, Yes, that's great what you just did. The problem wasn't what I thought was funny wasn't funny. The problem wasn't that people thought I wasn't funny. The problem was that one little disconnect. That one little disconnect is always a different thing. It's a disconnect, but it's always for a different reason. You remind me of somebody I don't like. You said something very direct, and it felt like you were being mean, so I'm needing to protect myself.

There's a very specific moment. It was right when I got diagnosed and I was trying to look for this stuff, and I was having a conversation with a friend of mine, and she's telling me this story about something that I'm not understanding. I say, I'm sorry, I don't get it. What's the point? Then she finished talking 10 seconds later. I didn't The only thing I noticed in that moment was she has this energy talking, I said something, and then her energy changed and it ended. I asked, did I say something that changed the energy? I was in I still am very interested. She goes, I was probably talking too much. You told me to what's the point. I just wanted to get to it, which makes total sense. My intention was, I'm not able to follow right now. I need a thesis statement. I just help get mehelp guide me to the point you're making so I could enjoy this with you. One thing was missing. That miscommunication happens and will always happen, and that's okay. But the idea to recognize that it did happen, first of all, and then try and get better at making it not.

For example, saying something like, I want you to know I am interested. I'm not quite understanding the point. Could you word that differently? Now it's different. What I've learned from this diagnosis, and again, we're going out of order, the why of it I'm happy to get into. But what I learned from it is how to communicate more efficiently with people. Could you explain the point I'm interested? I want to hear more, for example. Then helping condition other people how to better communicate with me. Whenever we have a new director, I don't say I have autism. I'd say, Hey, I need to be spoken to very directly. I don't pick up on the nuance. If you want to give me a line read, if we don't have time for something, if you just say it. Because when they're like, Oh, that's great. Why don't we do it this way? And then blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Just tell me. For people who don't know, a lot of TV directors, especially, they're coming onto a set. They're the guests. They're the guests, and everyone's established stars, and they want to direct the episode, but they don't want to say, I'm not buying what you're doing. I need you to do it faster. Yeah, what's the point, basically? Exactly. But they'll be like, Yeah, try it again. They speak in this code. I can imagine trying to decipher that code on a set would be really challenging.

Even if I'm able to get to what they want, the inefficiency of it and all the different things, and I don't know you, I have to imagine this is how you are. I say this just by watching your performances. I'm really making a judgment. But there's so much in life to calculate at any given moment, and everything you have to calculate stops you or gets in the way from being present. What you have on the office, at least almost all the time, it's edited, so they pick the takes, is what both you and Steve have on the office is it seems like you are completely in. You are completely present. What is improvised and what is not, I don't know if anyone will know unless they look at a script, that is a superpower that if you're worried about doing something wrong or upsetting somebody or the time limit, at least you can't be present. You have to have a complete safe space. I don't mean to project, so I'll just explain what I mean to that, but does any of that connect with you? Totally. That's your superpower is being present.

Yes, but there are sets and roles and situations where I really struggle as an actor to be present. Exactly what you said, I hate to use the word safe space because it's such an overused word.

Quite literally, feeling safe.

But Greg Daniels created a safe space. Ken Quappas, who directed Larry Sanders show and other semi-improvized shows, they created an environment, even with the guest directors, even with the writers there is like, we're going to find it. Everything is malleable.

Finding it is the safest... Hey, we're supposed to find it is the safest... I almost call my podcast, Finding It. Hey, we're going to find It doesn't matter because we're finding... I'm sorry, but that's the ultimate safe space in creativity.

As long as we got what was scripted eventually, usually earlier on, and then we could take as many takes as we wanted. Sometimes we'd have five takes, we'd have a solid scripted take, and we would do 17 takes because there's more to just explore and have fun with, and then it would dry up and we would move on. So there was the parameters for me and Steve and all of the actors for that matter to really sink in and just respond to exactly what's in front of us in a way that you need to do to do successful improv.

But when you have things you have to think about, in a simple version that there's no way around, we have to hurry up, we don't have time in a way that isn't as efficient. The director said, I could do this, but I don't really know. Am I annoying people? Am I wasting people's time? That's inter-personally as well. Now, whenever anybody checks their I watch, I have to ask, Do you want to go? Are we talking too much? Because I, for better and for worse, don't trust until I know somebody, their ability to establish their own boundaries. So I feel this sense of... Because I've missed people's boundaries so much. The first two years after my diagnosis, I was saying sorry to everything preemptively, just in case. I'm, by the way, sorry. I don't know if I'm changing the frame. Is this fine? Just checking in with everything. Just fucking It's that calculating stuff.

This is really rich and really valuable. Talk me through a little bit about, again, going back a little more on the history. I want to know, you had some inkling. Bill Lawrence brought it up as a possibility. You went and got a diagnosis. I want to know how that worked. Sure.

Then you've talked about how you felt relieved, but I imagine, did you feel Or sad or heartbroken or confused at the same time, too?

Did it make you depressed? Talk me through just the arc of that discovery and how it affected you in terms of a personal transformation.

In grade school, I was always in special classes, just learning disabled type of stuff, just like the study hall that was a little small, the blah, blah, blah, blah. Short bus. Yeah. I think that term, I don't really care, but I think that term is a bit stigmatized, and for whatever reason, I'm trying to be conscious of it.

We're cutting that out. Don't worry. I'm going to throw some things in.

I don't think it's worth cutting out because there's nothing bad. I mean, it's up to you. It's fine.

But it's offensive. It's one of those things we would like in the '70s and '80s, be like, Oh, the short bus, kids.

I think if it is offensive, I think it's broadly offensive for the wrong reason, as if being on The idea of being a short bus makes sense. Hey, there's less people like this than like this. So statistically, the bus doesn't need to be as long. It's like saying, Oh, you have a Sedan? We have an SUV. Okay. There were things that happened in school that we could get into, but not the point. The point of it is all these things and needing to go to these special schools and being really embarrassed coming back to my main school. And I always felt like-What did you struggle with in school?

Why were you put there? You're so articulate, so brilliant. Your mind works at a thousand miles per hour. What was your struggle?

I've been thinking about this, and I could only answer from my memories of a kid, so I don't know. What I have to imagine is...

Can we call your mom?

Yeah.

What's her name?

Debbie.

Debbie? Yeah. Let me talk. Hi. Hi, Debbie. Mrs. Glassman. Hi, I'm here with your son, Rick. My name's Raine Wilson. I'm an actor and a podcaster. Yes. How are you? I was on the show The Office. Did you ever watch The Office?

I watched every single episode of The Office, and you were phenomenal in it.

My dad's ringtone when I call is The Office theme.

Wow. The Glassman family is all in on The Office.

The Glassman family loves The Office. Thanks, Debbie. Would you mind He's holding on one moment while I say goodbye? Oh, no, he's still here. Okay, I've got somebody putting carbon monoxide.

Tell him to not put the carbon monoxide in the house, mom. I keep telling you we don't want the carbon monoxide in the house.

No, the idea is keep the carbon monoxide away. Out of the house. Out of the house. In the exhaust pipe.

Out of the house.

She keeps putting carbon monoxide in the house.

Debbie. Yes, dear. Debbie, I just need a minute. I'm talking to your son, Rick. Richard? Richard. About... Not a very Jewish name, Richard. It's an English, old English medieval name, Richard.

You know what, though? We go way back as Jews. We're all over.

You are all over. All over the place.

We were old English Much like this episode.

We'll pull it together in post. Debbie, we're talking about his history. Hold on. We're talking about Rick's history with the autism diagnosis and just what it was like growing up.

Say PEP, which is the school I went to. Pep? Pep. P-e-p, Positive Education Program.

When I was asking him and he was unable to answer this question, I was like, What did you really struggle with in school that had you put into special programs? Because he's so brilliant. He's articulate, he's funny. His mind moves at a thousand miles per hour. He's obviously incredibly successful, built an amazing career. But what were the struggles in elementary or junior high, specifically? Was it reading, comprehension or focus? Do you remember? Because he doesn't.

Well, what we do, as a matter of fact, his father just walked by, and his father is going to answer that question right now.

Why? You have to deal with the carbon monoxide? Mom, You answer it in such a loving, supportive way. Yeah, don't let your judgy father answer that. Oh, damn it.

All right, well, this was it.

Well, both of you.

It was the insecurities of him thinking he was incapable of getting work done that put him in classes with special teachers so that they could help him. The funny thing about Ricky was- If he told Ricky not to do something, he wanted to do it even more. Yeah, well, if he told Ricky not to do something, he wanted to do it even more. But the funny thing about it was, is he would start to literally have a fit that he would have to do his homework and say, I don't know how to do it. I don't know what I'm doing. I can't do this. The phone would ring. Somebody from school would call up to ask him a question about the homework or the work. All of a sudden, Ricky knew all the answers. Ricky knew exactly what to do. When someone else needed his help, he was the one that was there to help them. But when he was on his own, he really did not have the confidence to think that he was able to succeed in getting something accomplished. So he was put in special classes so that he would get that extra help.

I need to try to wrap this up. That started out really lovely. It started out with very patient, very understanding, very loving teachers who who gave him the time to work things through at his own pace until he got older. And then the teachers weren't as kind and the teachers weren't as nice. And it wasn't a good scene. That's too bad.

I'm sorry to hear that.

No, it was really actually really bad.

Ricky is wanting to wrap this up, but I'm enjoying it. I'm really enjoying. Mr. Glassman, do you have anything to add about- Well, no.

Mr. Glassman walked away once he knew that his father didn't want to speak to him in an hour.

What an asshole. No. God.

Wait, no. I just wanted to hear your perspective from when I was a kid because you were the one in the school. Not that I don't want to talk to dad. You know what?

No, I know dad. It's just too long and involved.

Mom, we're going to let you go.Okay.All right. Love you. Bye. Love you. Bye.

Your dad owns a rug store in Cleveland?

Yeah. I have a problem with... Me and my dad go back and forth on this. A lot of successful businesses, they like to have a lot of happy customers, and we don't have one customer in Marshall Roy Gallery, which is ridiculous because everybody at Marshall Road Gallery is family.

The diagnosis.

I had these problems as a kid. They went away. I didn't have these problems anymore. These problems were the way my social interactions were very, very difficult and/or nonexistent. I didn't communicate very consistently with people. I had very, very, very bad OCD, and things needed to be done a very certain way, which isolated me from people. I got into comedy. I learned how to communicate jokes. The rest, most of the people I interacted with, that were comedians, and you didn't have to connect in the ways you do in the real world. It could just be bits.

You were good at recognizing the bit. Was something in your brain was like, Oh, I see the construct of the bit.

Either exactly or the exact opposite. What I mean by that is I never knew if this was a joke or not. I developed the comedy to treat everything as if it were real, but it's a joke. I've said this on my podcast a lot, but I don't find jokes and sincerity mutually exclusive. They're both. Hey, we're being playful, we're being silly. Everything is inspired by something real. I am treating this very real, but my tone, my energy, the way we're doing it is going to be a joke because I never knew. Which then led to people never knowing if I was joking or That was 10 years of my life. I always knew everybody knew I was joking. Of course they know. How could they not? There was no world where I would recognize that they didn't know I was joking. A flaw in the social system is people won't tell you. People would rather just be like, Okay, and walk away than saying, Hey, I'm not understanding your intention here, and you're making me uncomfortable. For the longest time, I'm now like, Great.

That's so funny. Can I just pop in there real quick? My therapist, who also sees my wife and is our couples therapist named Bruce, he's amazing. He says that the number one tool for communication in a relationship is the phrase, That didn't feel good. What's your intent? That was exactly It's so funny because that's exactly what you said. But it is an issue. When stuff comes at us, either someone was rude or not being... They weren't meaning to be rude. They were like, Can you get to the point? That didn't feel good. What's your intent? It's so funny because that's exactly what you said. But it is an issue. When stuff comes at us, either someone was rude or not being... They weren't meaning to be rude. They were like, Can you get to the point? That didn't feel good, what's your intent, is so important in a marriage, and it immediately slows things down, immediately takes stock of your sensitivity. All you're saying is it didn't feel good. That doesn't mean that you're being an asshole.

You're not pointing any fingers. You learn In second grade, you talk an eye feelings, not you dids, not accusations. It also develops a shorthand because if you say, Hey, that didn't feel good, and I say, Oh, sorry, I was just doing this, you could then say, Even though you were joking, I didn't like it, now I know not to do it. Or you could be like, That makes so much sense. I thought, Oh, I don't care. Keep doing it. Then you develop this shorthand, this trust, and giving people the benefit of the doubt. Not only is it important When you recognize that I don't feel good to communicate it, what seems to be an obstacle for a lot of the people that I meet is they don't even know that something didn't make them feel good in the moment. They don't understand their feelings. They may understand that doesn't feel good, but they don't know why, let alone have the confidence and ability to communicate it. It doesn't even have to be a negative thing. It could be the me joking all the time. It could be the me annoying everybody with all of my bits.

I'm sure you've had some relationships and some girlfriends who were like, Rick, will you cut it with the bits?

Yeah. In close relationships, it wasn't as much of a problem because there wasn't as much of a need for me to hide behind them. Because when you're going to a comedy club, I'm in comedy mode. I only see these guys twice a week. I'm doing bits. I want to be funny. I want to be laughing. This isn't the sitting at home and having… I'm so grateful for my podcast to be having these long-form conversations with peers and friends.

You have a podcast?

It's called Take Your Shoes Off. It doesn't have to be all bits. I'm going a little bit all over the place. I want to still answer what you're saying, but I used to only do bits, not just because I wanted to laugh and I recognized. One thing I recognized was laughing. I didn't know how you were feeling. I didn't know if you liked me or not. I still don't know if you like me or not, but I knew that's a real laugh. I chased it. I want that because it was honest. If you give somebody a present, some people thank you so much. Some people, Oh, this is nice. You don't know how they feel. If you make somebody angry, they might ignore you. They might overreact. You don't know. The laugh evens the playing field. But I also then developed this thing where I just talk in jokes. It just became, it's just you do bits. You saying you have a podcast, it's just a little bit. It's just a thing. It's just constant bits you're doing. I didn't know how much I was bothering people. When I got my… I noticed a couple of things that made me think, Wait a minute, do I have autism?

I don't have autism, but like,. All of these things that I'm... It wasn't worth finding out.

I just want to give a big thank you and a gigantic shout out to one of our sponsors. Answers, the Fetzer Institute. In an era where mental health is a growing concern, Fetzer's insights into the role of spirituality and building resilience isn't just timely, it's essential. They offer hope for what so many of us are seeking. Thank you for your support. Fetzer. Visit them at fetzer. Org.

I'm in a basketball game with Bill Lawrence. I'm in that game because he saw me do standup and he invited us, me and some of my friends, some of my friends and me. Then he asks me to audition. I'm in the show. The show was three years. The show ends. I'm in this game for almost six years. I got an email one day from him, which is with this I Am Phenomenal, that video I made, Joel McHale plays Bill. His script is the email from Bill.

The actual dialog he says in this short film video that you made is-Is almost worked for the exception of Joel improvising, and I say this for Bill's benefit, Joel improvising how much he loves anal sex.

I just want to let that be known because Bill said he got a lot of messages talking about how much he loves anal. That was not part of the email. Basically, I got kicked out of this basketball game because I was bothering people. Oh, wow. Some of the stuff I disagreed with, some of the stuff I didn't realize, but I believe. I am phenomenal. It's called that because I am the best basketball player out there. I am funny. I am good. Everybody likes me. Then I found out, not only am I not the first one picked, they don't even want me there. I'm like, What the fuck are you talking about? Why? Because I want to win? You fucking cucks. I went into this mentality like, If I lose, we have to sit and wait a game. Nobody wants to do that. There's only one value I have to bring, and that's to win and to yell at people for shooting threes when it's a three-on-one fast break and get to the fucking hoop and just setting hard pics and not recognizing that a lot of these guys are 50-year-old comedy writers just looking to get away from their family and have a good time.

I'm just, Cut to the fucking hoop. I'm just yelling. Though I don't think I'm wrong for my instincts of wanting to win and play aggressively, I had no idea that this was stepping on other people's enjoyment. Within two weeks, I got kicked out of a and a poker game with what I thought were my friends who think I'm the funniest best guy in the world. Then I'm like, We don't want Rick here. He's too aggressive. He talks too much shit, blah, blah, blah, blah. Bill, it was a very, very kind, very, very direct email that made me feel very sad and appreciative at the same time, which was, really? I'm like, wait, these people... I'm just like, I read this email and I had been thinking about it for a little bit. He goes, It It seems like you lack awareness on how people receive you, which would be the thesis statement of what I'd been missing, that one little thing. It's like, Yeah, obviously. But it wasn't that I don't know how they think about me. I knew. There's a Mark Twain quote that I love. I'm paraphrasing, but being wrong isn't the problem.

It's knowing you're right when it just ain't so.I knew.Wait.

Say that again.

The issue isn't not knowing something. That's fine. It's knowing something that isn't the case. If I don't know how they feel about me, I then at least... Answers are easy, questions are hard. Okay, I have to navigate this and figure this out, but I knew how they felt about me. I'm the first one picked. I'm the best basketball player. Let's go, baby. That blinded me from the truth, which was the negative stuff.

There's so much more to cover here in this story. I really am being very sincere and saying, I love hearing this. I think the audience is going to love hearing this. It's fascinating.

But what's the point?

No, I know what the point is, but I do want to say something, and I don't want to come across as offensive. It's hard when you say someone is on the spectrum because part of me thinks like, Well, is there a spectrum? And where is the line? Because who you describe, like a lack of emotional self-awareness, that describes Michael Scott. And Dwight Schrute. Also, it describes Rain Wilson, who had very dysfunctional parents who didn't have emotional intelligence. They both came from very traumatized backgrounds. I grew up Really feeling like a fucking alien in humanity. I am not making that up at all. I felt like I didn't fit in at all. I started trying to help you so much. I've told this story. It's why I tell this story of I would literally observe kids in the lunchroom of how their normal easy...

What's that? It's called masking. I remember you talked about that. I'm like, Yeah, he's masking.

Oh, he has a name. I didn't know that. I would see someone come up to someone else and say, Hey, bro, how was your weekend? And clap twice on their back. And then I would try it on my friend Mike or Julie, and I'd be like, Hey, bro, how was your weekend? And hit them twice. And of course, it went I'd look at what they were wearing, and I'd want to wear the same thing. Oh, I need a members only jacket and a KISW Seattle's best rock T-shirt in order to fit in. But it was all like, trying. I felt like an alien. It was third rock from the sun. It was a star man. It was the alien, a brother from another planet, observing human behavior. Also, and just asked my wife, really, really not so good at reading emotional cues and being sensitive to people. I've had a lot of blowups and lost some friendships from my inability. I don't know that I would diagnose myself as being autistic, but how does that work? I don't want to be offensive about what the diagnosis is.

I can explain the way that it was explained to me. My diagnosis was from an adult behavior specialist who specializes in autism. She explained to me that it's a lot more difficult to diagnose an adult than a child because they have adapted to... Masking is not always a conscious decision, but it does become part of who you are. The term asking, because you said the term is basically just it's putting on a mask to be more palatable. It's easier for me to show you what you want than it is for me to be who I am. Now, that's not exclusive to autism. Sure. That's just social peer I'm not sure, fitting in tribalism that needs us to be accepted. To be accepted is, I don't know, to be seen and accepted is one of the more human things that you could possibly want. Everybody has their own obstacles. Neurodivergent, neurotypical, it's all over the spectrum. But to mask is to fit in. Sometimes we do it consciously. I better drink so people think I'm cool. I better wear this cool KWIS shirt so people blah, blah, blah. That's more curated than the fundamental version of it is like, Hello, how are you feeling today?

It's pretty tough outside sometimes. It's like saying things that maybe you believe... You're just doing the things that people do. Sometimes you do it so much that that is your life now. Everything is just a mask, and it's the most draining thing you don't even want to interact with. Also, you're not fooling anybody. Hey, buddy, how's your family feeling today? They're like, Who is this fucking weird robot? It doesn't work. But the way she explained the spectrum to me, it's not, How far on the spectrum are you? It's not, Yeah, but he's less autistic than him. Also, I noticed myself giving two examples of him, and I want to make sure that I speak to... There's a big community of undiagnosed females because it's a completely different thing with them. But there are pillars of character traits, some more common than others, none of which mean autism, not picking up on social cues, anxiety, sensitivity to textures, smells. Ocd trends. Ocd trends on it. There is difficulty communicating, whether it's having difficulties, a speech impediment or completely nonverbal. There's so many different things on the spectrum. Whenever I talk about autism, I quote Dr. Stephen Shore that says, If you met one person with autism, it means you met one person with autism.

Everybody is completely different. It's really different. But if you have this list of character traits, and like in a video game, the character, you want to give them a nine stamina, but then in ball handling, you can only give them a four. You do these things.

If you are at-Is that a porno video game?

Stamina and ball handling. Nice. Fucking nice.

That was some mad respect, right?

That was pretty good. Yeah, because I didn't see it until you said it. But no, it's an NBA Jam. Oh, You take these character traits, and at what point does it tip the scale of like, Oh, this is... This person may have more obstacles reading social cues than this person. That is higher than here. If you have, and I think, I don't know if there's a science to this because there's no blood work, there's no exact way of doing this. But if it's five or six where you really... I'm tentative to use the word struggle, but rate high. Because struggle sometimes is objective, but a lot of times it's a double-edged sword. My inability to do this makes me very good at this. It's really how it's defined. But if you have enough of these things along the spectrum of character traits, not along the spectrum of autism, where he's on the spectrum, meaning out of all these things, there are a certain amount of things where it's like, Oh, he or she is... I'll just say, Fuck it. I'll say struggles. I'll say has obstacles in these categories. Being sensitive to sounds doesn't mean you're autistic.

What's the term? It's not mesophilioma, it's something. Do you guys know the term? Misophonia. My dad There's a decent chant. I could tell he's not eating now. You could hear him from very far away.

Sensitivity to chewing and eating is a big-Yeah, it doesn't mean you're autistic.

But if you are very sensitive to My friend, the actor, David Costable on the show Billions.

Hi, Dave, if you're watching.

I have to put his Instagram name up there.

He has so... I mean, he's had to grab me because I...

Yeah, close your mouth. Don't... Close your mouth, though. Also, close your mouth because Because...

Tell that to my wife.

Are you saying when she's speaking or eating?

When she's talking.

Guys being guys. Eating, eating. You know the name of this podcast. But to be...

Guys being guys? Yeah. I should change that name?

This episode.

Okay.

There's a shorthand with autism that I've noticed and I don't like. I'm always afraid of talking about autism because it sounds like it's excusing something, and I never mean it to, let alone want it to.

Well, can I jump in and just say, as someone who has struggled with a lot of mental health issues, what does that mean, mental health issues? That can mean someone in a sanatorium. That can mean someone who is so depressed. They've tried to kill themselves 10 times. It can be someone who struggles with anxiety a little bit on a daily basis. Mental health is just hard.

It's very hard. Well, mental health is just health. Everybody has health, good or bad. Everybody has mental health, good or bad. Everybody has their own.

But nowadays, this term is thrown out. Mental health, mental health. It is a little bit tricky because I would say 80% of Gen Z says, I have mental health issues. It was like, what does that mean? You get sad sometimes, you get anxious sometimes. Guess what? That's being a human being. But at the same time, we have to be really, really sensitive because we've been so insensitive for a fucking century about mental health issues. We have to be really, really sensitive to people that have that struggle.

Everybody gets anxious. Everybody gets sad. Everybody doesn't like the way something smells. Everybody gets irritable. Everybody has low blood sugar. Everybody has something. But there are... And one of my insecurities of talking about autism too often is treating it as an excuse as opposed to an experience, because some people use terms for the shorthand only. For example, I'm sorry, I have a little bit of OCD. I have to have this, everything be straight. Okay, I get that. That's not obsessive compulsive disorder. Obsessive compulsive disorder-You can't function unless X, Y, and Z is in a certain place.

Yeah.

There are some people that it's more debilitating than others. I'm not offended when people say, I have a little OCD, but I'm thinking, you don't know what OCD is. You know how people were with When lockdown happened and they were washing their chips in the sink? That's what OCD is. I had COVID protocols before COVID. You can't touch. You have to do this. You have to touch. It's It's debilitating.

Did you wipe down your grocery bags before COVID?

I didn't wipe down my grocery bags. But if there was something that was outside, I would have shelves that this is for stuff that... If there were gummies and you open it inside, there were individually packed gummies. That would go on my inside shelves. I have outdoor clothes, indoor clothes, indoor clean clothes, and bed clothes. Sometimes I'll go out. I went outside today. These pants are now outdoor pants, but wearing them once, they're not dirty. So I have a closet for my outdoor clean. That means I could wear these again, but I'm not going to put these with my clean clothes because then who fucking knows? There's nothing logical It's very powerful about it. But that's OCD. There are people who have neurodiverse obstacles that far exceed some of the obstacles, A, that I have, or B, that people recognize that I have. Where I don't want to make people not feel seen by me talking about some of my stuff. But after doing this show, the As We See It show, which is my favorite thing I've done. It's wonderful. Talking about it more on my podcast, having people from the show on my podcast.

You have a podcast? Take your shoes off. Why are you telling? Because I want them to watch. The take your shoes off is because that's a thing that is palatable.

You need people to take their shoes off when they go in your podcast studio? Yeah.

People get that because it's not that weird.

I'm going to leave my fucking shoes on. If you want me on the pod, if you want me on your pod, I am not taking my shoes off. How do you like me now?

I think it sucks that I can't have you on my podcast.

Lying in the sand.

Lying in the sand.

What if I put- Booties on?

No, you're not the first person to suggest this. You want who that other person is? Good luck. He's in prison now. Do you remember when Wesley Snipes was in prison for tax evasion? But then he got out and he did the Expandables movie. Then when they go on the train at the beginning and they let Wesley Snipes' character out of these bars that he's in, and they're like, How did they get you? And he goes, Tax evasion.

It all comes around.

This kicked in late, but it just kicked in, and I want to get silly. I don't know when we're going and how long we're doing. We're probably wrapping up soon. But I just want to say, if you're ever willing to come on my podcast and get silly, you're going to have to take your shoes off.

I'll take more than my shoes off.

Good.

Can I have my pants off if I do your podcast?

Yeah, you wouldn't be the first. Oh, you've had other? I've had people with their pants off, their shirt off. We get wild.

I want to keep going, if that's okay with you.

Let me finish that one part. Why I've decided that I like talking about this is that since that TV show, and me talking on the pod sometimes, I've had numerous people comment right when I've met them, told me that they They have since been diagnosed themselves. Why I think that's important? Because it was originally before the basketball game. Why do I need to know? What's the point of getting diagnosed? It's not like it's going to change me. The reason is there are so many things you could learn about the why. Some of my anxieties, though I still get them, I better understand why. It makes it so much more efficient to I know what positions to not put myself in. I know what positions are going to be difficult before going into them. I know how to ask for that safety. I know how to know when I can't get that safety. That idea of learning how to communicate with other people and how to help them communicate with me, that's why it's so important to understand not I have autism so, but my mind works in a way that was not conditioned the way that most of the people around my life have conditioned themselves and me.

There are things that are not intuitive for me that I didn't know. I have gotten so good at reading people's facial expressions. I got so good at knowing... That means you're hungry. Are you hungry? I've gotten so good at recognizing them because I had no idea what they were. I then was researching on my own, both in books and audio tapes on people who were diagnosed themselves, especially it's a certain type of person who they're diagnosed as an adult. Then on the podcast and asking questions of the why. Why did you say that? What does that mean? Could you say that differently?

That's so cool. You would be learning on a podcast as you're going. Oh, yeah. That's so cool.

Then watching it, before I was watching the person and then editing and I'm watching me and seeing things that I missed and when I interrupted and why I did and when I could see that I checked out without expressing that I'm checking out. Let them know that. You don't have to say you're boring me, but say, Hey, I'm not grasping or I'm losing a little bit of interest. Can we dive in differently or something? Seeing it, it really made me very turned off. Like, Oh, I don't like that. Because you don't see yourself the way you see yourself when you get to see yourself. We're critical of ourselves and we're insecure, etc. Some things are just that, an insecurity. But some things are valid. Like, Oh, it doesn't matter what people think, just do you. But if everybody thinks this thing about you, take some accountability. And this self-love movement is beautiful and necessary, but not at the of growth. I think editing yourself, watching yourself on a podcast or something is a great way to see yourself in a non-biased way. And yeah, the podcast has been so beneficial because you see things you don't like.

I'll call it's anonymous. They talk about the things that you could change that are in your control and things you have to accept the way that they are. There's so much that's in our control to change. Change doesn't have to be a behavioral change. It could be acceptance of a limitation or acceptance of who or what you are. So my confidence has gone up so much. My diagnosis, I was so excited. Then I went through a two-year, almost two-year depression because-You talk about that?

What were you depressed about?

What was-Felt like a baby.

I felt I felt like I'm- Did it make you go back through your life? Oh, that friendship. That's why the guy I never called. Oh, I screwed that up or that relationship. Yeah, some regret and remorse as well.

Yeah.

I just want to acknowledge what you might be feeling right now, and thank you for being brave enough to feel it here.

When I was younger and the experiences I had with the context both limited because of my age and just life experience, I guess that's the same thing. But looking back at them, knowing more now, I get frustrated when I'm remembering a memory and not what really happened. I'm seeing my relationship with my brother through the eyes of a 10-year-old, and I don't know what it... Even calling my mom, I don't know. I only know what I was experiencing. I get a bit frustrated that my experience is not my memory, because I have a pretty good memory. I could remember the things that I felt. My experience of what I felt is so limited. I had such blinders on. I had no idea how other people were feeling. There's a stigma that people with autism don't have empathy. Which is, from my experience of now befriending many people on the autism spectrum, is so far from the truth. However, the ability to empathize is as strong as your ability to see the thing you empathize with.

You have to recognize someone's pain or someone else's struggle or where they're meeting up with an obstacle in order to be able to have compassion for them.

It's a recognition piece. I find that a lot of these friends that I have made are extra sensitive to it. But someone might need to say, Hey, I'm really hurting right now. They might not recognize a wince on the face or a lot of posture changes. So this So while you're going like this a whole bunch, I'm just talking to you about how great my fucking coffee is. And you're like, This guy doesn't care about how I feel. This guy doesn't know how you feel, and he would be interested if you expressed it to him. Yeah.

Well, I want to say that there's a parallel here with my experience. It's very different, but there is a certain parallel, which was when I really got into therapy and when I really got into recovery and realizing a lot of the trauma I went through as a kid. My mom took off when I was a year and a half, and I was in a really dysfunctional family, and there was just a lot of shit. When I started unpeeling that onion, I felt such a relief like, Oh, that's why I'm an addict.

On the onion of trauma?

Of the onion of trauma and family history and family dysfunction.

Seeing how it played a role in it.

Explained so much about how I was, the way that I was, even just describing how I was in the lunchroom with the pat on the back. Of course I was because I didn't have parents that taught me some really basic things Also, there are some things that maybe other people were able to figure out on their own that you didn't. Yeah. I definitely went through some times of great depression and remorse and almost grieving for that lost child. But I felt such a relief to know, I'm screwed up in this way, and there's a very good reason why I'm screwed up in this way. Now, that doesn't mean, and it's like you say, that doesn't mean that my work then is done and I can just act however the fuck I want to act. It's like, Okay, so how do I better myself? How do I improve those blind spots? How do I function better with greater compassion and sensitivity in my marriage, in my life, in my friendships, in my work environments? That is on me because I I think some people have the diagnosis of some mental health issue, and they look at family trauma and dysfunction, and then they're like, That's it, and they're just going to just stay the same.

Yeah. Well, you have the why, and then what do you do with it? You have the why, and like, okay, that is what it is, or do you do something with it? What you're saying about, oh, I had this trauma, to not use it as an excuse, but to use it as a learning tool to understand. That was where the hesitancy of the autism is and where I sometimes feel okay talking about it, which is this isn't an excuse, this isn't an identity, this is just a category that is still quite broad, but to better understand, if I had an alcoholic parent or a single parent household and/or an issue with a sibling, a half brother, a deceased, or they were the... What's the term? The prodigal child.Gobsmacked. These are all... Don't define who you are and doesn't mean that you're the the next person in the experience is, but it does lead you down a path of better understanding of like, Oh, here are some patterns of behavior. With any type of diagnosis, whether it's autism or depression or OCD or child of an alcoholic or whatever the thing might be. It just helps you better understand your own triggers.

But the depression that I felt came to less about what it is that is the path of understanding, and more so, I didn't feel stupid, but I felt so unable. I'm a 30-something something-year-old guy who now I wouldn't go on dates. I wouldn't believe my friendships that I've since developed as an adult. Is everybody Is everybody lying to me? You went, I remember I was dating a girl who was telling me a story and I was listening, and she said, You're not listening to me. Then I said, I am listening to you. Then I don't know if it was passive-aggressive or not. I don't remember. You repeated back. My intention was proving, yes, word for word. She goes, Okay, well, I don't like that you're doing that. No problem for her. She felt her feelings. But I said, What could I do? She goes, Well, there's a call and response where people want you to go, or say, Right. Then I, jokingly, but as she was talking, I'd be like, Right, right, right, right, yes. To this day, when somebody does that, I don't think that they're putting it on. I also don't know that they're not.

Are you listening to me or are you wanting me to feel listened to? I have no idea. That's one of those calculations that I say keeps me from being present. Well, What I've learnedI haven't been listening this entire time. If that bothers me, okay, if that bothers me and I feel like it's something I could control, I'm now going to be trying to fix that. The depression came from that. The depression was, Are you interested? Am I talking? I'm sorry. It was just like... It was so sad. When people were even nice to me, I'm like, People were always... I wasn't bullied as a kid. People were always nice to me. Nobody liked That's not true. It's a little hyperbolic. But I wasn't included. I don't say this as a victim. I say this as a person who was annoying. When I had friends, I would ask to wrestle them and box them and touch them and be annoying. It's like, But now what do I do? I felt like I'm a 30-year-old baby. I had to practice. One of the things that I was told to practice when people say, How are you doing?

I say, Good, thanks. How are you? Just say it. I do a bit about this now, how you just say it.

I Speaking of that, what are some autism jokes and bits that you can say that I could never say? Ready, go.

Oh, I don't know what you can never say. Well, come on.

Because if I told autism jokes, come on, that would be offensive.

My jokes are about my obstacles and strengths with autism, not autism. I have a bit where I say, I have a lot of anxiety and a lot stomach issues. Six years ago, I was diagnosed with autism. My whole life, I just thought I was Jewish. I find that a lot of these neuroses are a very Jewish thing. I guess you not being Jewish, you couldn't say that. Is it Jewishism? Is it what?

Is it Jew-tism?

I don't know what that means.

It's a combination of Jewish and autism.

Oh. Yeah, I guess they both have a niche.Jautism?

What you have is Jauhtisim. I'm just throwing that out. I was born with jaundice. Okay, but I thought maybe you could use thatI thought that a year.

That's your brand. Okay.

My brand is offensive and not funny.

No, your brand is offensive and deconstructive. Okay. Then the funny, it just takes one little switch. The office, obviously, everybody loves for their own reasons and the same reason. But there really is something, and I was excited to come on this podcast, and we didn't talk about it much. If you're willing to take your shoes off, I want to spend a lot of with this when you come on. But I meant what I said, and this is an observation that I have made a long time ago. You and Steve's ability to be present is why... It's a little reductive to say is why you're funny, but is a big reason why, to me, you're so funny. It's because I believe you. I believe that character I believe you. I believe you so much. That's also credit to the show itself and that you're put in these situations that you get to play into this.

The great scripts and the great editing.

Thank you to the cast and the crew. Being honest to me is the best way of being really funny. I've leaned into that, and I don't know if I've gone too far. Sometimes I'll talk on stage, I'll be being so honest I'm honest. I've noticed that it goes the other way sometimes. Sometimes when you're being so honest, people think you're joking. That's a new hurdle for me now. It used to be, Oh, Rick's joking because he's being playful. No, I'm telling you the truth. I'm just doing it in a playful way because that's where I feel safe. Now I've gotten to the sign where I'm just trying to be as honest as possible because it's so funny. If you believe this person, then I don't know. It's just...

Well, I'll tell you an experience about that. I did one of these improv shows where I was the guest monologist. Monologist. Monologist. They just said, just tell... You get a prompt from the audience and just tell a monolog really from your life and be really truthful. People will know when you're making stuff up and exaggerating. Really be as truthful as possible. For me, not being a stand-up. Then, of course, For people that don't know, then the improvisers will spend a great deal of time unpacking the story and telling different versions of it. It's inspired and influenced by the story that you tell. It was so much fun to tell real-life stories from my life that I didn't think were necessarily that funny. It was getting raucous applause because I was just trying to be as truthful as possible about I had this ball operation. I had an operation on my scrotum. Veracrucile?

Yes.

A hydrocele, a little bit related.

People don't understand, but he's bragging now.

I had the old-fashioned Veracrucile. Yeah, I had the Hydrocele. It's one up.

Which is a Veracrucile, but with multiple heads. That's what a Hydrobeast is. We'll keep it in, but put it in a picture. Anyway, so you have ball surgery, and people are now laughing not because, Oh, balls, but because they believe you're vulnerable.

I talked about what it's like to discover that you need scrotal surgery and going through it. Let me guess.

Left testicle?

I'm going to be really honest.

I don't even remember which one it was. I will put money on it. It's your left.

I think it was my right.

No, a lot of these vascular issues and things happen on the same side your heart is on.

My wife would remember.

But anyway, I'm sorry. So you're telling the story.

But yeah, I just want to reiterate that I had this... Just last week, I had this experience where I was just telling super truthful stories, and it was getting big rounds of laughter, and I wasn't telling any jokes. I was just trying to share my experience. So people dig that. They key into that.

What a good sitcom is, is that, is situational comedy. So if you have the funny situation, all you have to do is be honest in it. I found honesty being validated. It made it easier to be honest because, oh, people think this is funny since I'm being honest, and it got rid of the shame. That's that helped get out of the depression. Not that I don't know what somebody's thinking because I still don't know, but accepted that I'll never... I didn't know before. I was so happy growing up. I thought I was the best. My mom applauded a bowel movement. She wanted me to play the piano for everybody. I thought I was the best. Then I found out I'm not the best, and that made me very, very sad. Then as I tried to go back to be liked, I realized that before I had awareness and after I had an awareness, I had the same thing in common. I cannot control, and I will never know how people feel about me. It made it easier to accept Oh, this is just what it is. Not saying, Fuck you, I don't care what you think, but just, This is what it is.

Being honest about, Hey, I'm feeling insecure right now. Hey, that hurt my feelings. Hey, I'm a little bored with what we're talking about. And that has been validated for whatever reason, maybe because I made it silly or because people thought it was a joke so they could hear it better, whatever. But what has come out the other end and got rid of, helped me with the depressive state of not knowing how people feel about me is the only thing I could do is be honest. And the best way of being honest is being in touch with how I feel. It's corny to talk about that stuff.

No, it's not corny. It's important because what you're talking about is a transformational, philosophical, psychological, and spiritual change of I am going to now live my life in integrity and honesty and communication and learn about the internal environment and atmosphere and terrain of my emotions and communicate my wants and needs. This is what 80% of modern America is dealing with, just that. So your transformation out of that diagnosis into living a more honest, grounded, integral life, it's not corny. It's really important, and it's important for people to hear that story.

The wants and the needs, it seems like such a simple thing. Many people don't know what they want and need, or at least can't differentiate between the two. That's where I know that as far as spirituality is concerned, one of the big ones is practicing gratitude. But that is to see that you actually have a lot of the things you want and need. Well, listen, I'm on coffee. I've been eating, so I'm in such a talkative mood. I know it's your podcast, but I always miss my discount, and I don't want to go on too much. But I've been having a very nice time with you.

I've never felt so rejected in my own podcast before.

Oh, I was giving you an out.

I'll stay and talk. I'm going to wrap it up.

This is just so cool. I'm such a big fan of yours. Oh, that's very kind. I feel really nice after this conversation.

It's a great conversation. I learned a ton. I think people are going to love to hear your story and your perspective.

You know, I have a podcast.

That's so crazy.

I saw it.

That's why I saw it. You saw it coming. I telegrapht it?

You- Damn. Each time you did it, you squint and you turned. You were indicating a curiosity that you were only doing with a bit.

No, I thought I was doing it so subtly.

That made me feel connected to you.

You have a podcast? Cut. Cut.

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