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Welcome to stuff you missed in History Class A production of I Heart Radio. Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly Fry. And I'm Tracy B. Wilson. So, Tracy, the story that begins with Jonathan Harker's travels to Transylvania on a business trip to complete a real estate deal is when almost everybody knows. If I tell you that phrase, you would say I would say Dracula. Right, because Dracula is iconic.

And we have talked about Dracula on several episodes of this podcast. And we talked about the lives of Christopher Lee and F.W. Murnau and Bela Lugosi and Dwight Frei.

And it seems like we must have talked about the life of Bram Stoker before. Yeah, we have not.

No, we had a whole conversation where you were like, I can't believe we haven't done this. And I was like, but we did, though. No, we definitely on it has come up. I feel like what's come up more than Bram Stoker himself is his estate and his widow not giving people permission to adapt his work. Mm hmm. But really, we have not talked about him at all. It this is a case where once I started getting into the research after you and I had that discussion, I knew we had not talked about it at all because there's part of his story.

I 100 percent would have remembered and have been texting all of my friends about for the last several days leading up to this recording.

So today we are going to talk about Bram Stoker.

Abraham Stoker was born on November 8th, 1847. His parents lived in the Clontarf suburb of Dublin, Ireland. His father was also named Abraham Stoker. His mother was Charlotte Matilda Blake, Thornleigh Stoker.

And this was a large family. Boram had two siblings when he was born and the stokers had another four more children after him.

And as a child, Bram, who was still going by Abraham at that age but to separate from his dad, will go ahead and go to his adopted name. Abram was not healthy. He was confined to his bed or wherever an adult would carry him for the first seven years of his life. And we don't actually know what the nature of this illness was. And there have been all kinds of theories from it, possibly having been some sort of a fever to a psychological element being part of it, possibly a trauma of some kind.

But this is absolutely all speculation. We do not know what was up here.

Most biographies make the case that this early phase of stokers life definitely influenced everything that came afterward. Bram's mother told him about the cholera epidemic that she had lived through and specifically people being buried alive. His father would tell him family stories, including military battles, and also described plays that he had seen all of this seeded stokers imagination. And he had a lot of time alone with his thoughts since he couldn't really get up and go play with his siblings and his peers.

But despite this early start in this mystery ailment, Stoker made a full recovery. Biographer Barbara Belford, who is one of several biographers that wrote about him, mentions how very odd it is that Stoker never gave any detail of his illness in his writing about himself. This was not a family that was ignorant of medical matters. His uncle, William Stoker, was the family doctor. He also had three brothers who became doctors. But the truth of those early years seems to have been obscured and lost to time.

Although a lot of scholars of Stokers work have scoured his writing for clues, like any time he mentions a child being ill or they like, is this a reference to his youth? But details regarding the end of his illness are as murky as the illness itself. He would later write, quote, This early weakness passed away and I grew into a strong boy in time in large to the biggest member of my family. In 1864, when Stoker was 17, he enrolled at Trinity College at the University of Dublin.

And while he may have started life in pretty poor health as a college student, he was actually really athletic. He was an accomplished gymnast and a rugby player. He also participated in endurance race walking. He won prizes and five and seven mile walks. He also cut up pretty striking figure. He was six foot two with red hair and he was popular, invited to join both the historical society and the philosophical society. And he was elected to positions of responsibility in each of them.

His time at Trinity overlapped with that of Oscar Wilde, who was younger than Stoker. The two of them knew each other, and Bram had actually nominated Wilde for membership of the Philosophical Society.

Yeah, that's an interesting overlap. It will come up again in just a bit. So here's the thing. Stokers performance in school did not really hint to his future legacy. While he excelled at sports. He was kind of an average student academically, but he was writing essays and papers about things that sparked his interest in his societal participations, including ones titled. Sensationalism in fiction and society and the necessity for political honesty, in 1870, he graduated from Trinity.

He would later say he graduated with honors in mathematics. This is untrue. Trinity College actually has a biography of him and they're like, we don't know where he got it.

If you're wondering about it, taking six years for him to earn a bachelor's degree, that's because he was also working for all but the first two years of that schooling. Stoker took a civil service job at Dublin Castle thanks to an assist from his father, who had also worked there as a civil servant until his retirement in 1865. So he was working six and a half days a week while also taking classes. So at that point, six years has passed to me.

Yes, me as well. And it's one of those things where it's almost like this sets the stage for his whole life of just being constantly working on a lot of things and making time for more things than anyone. Human should fit in a day. But after he finished school, he continued in his civil service position, although he also continued to be interested in literature in his last years of school, Stoker became somewhat obsessed with Walt Whitman and that deep interest in the man and his work continued.

Long after graduation from Trinity in February 1872, Stoker wrote Whitman a 2000 word letter in which he said, among other things, quote, You have shaken off the shackles and your wings are free. I have the shackles on my shoulders still, but I have no wings.

Stokers Letter continues on to describe himself in detail, including the sorts of things that a person today might normally share, maybe with a therapist, including how he chose to interact with people, as well as the sort of things you might tell a pen pal. And then it concluded with, quote, Now, I have told you all I know about myself. So I didn't actually mail this letter to Whitman, though. Instead, he left it in his desk for the next four years intending to make a clean copy to send.

This is a level of procrastination I feel like I can experience in my life.

I think we all can. There's also the possibility and again, this is a matter of speculation that some people have theorized that he recognized how sort of raw and familiar this letter was. And like, while that may have been his true his feelings, he was also a little trepidations about actually sharing it, like maybe I shouldn't send this to someone.

Right. Maybe I don't even want to acknowledge that I just wrote all of these things to my literary hero because that's weird. We'll talk more about this whole thing on Friday. But after a gathering at which Whitman's work was criticized and rebutted in 1876, and we should point out that, you know, Whitman was controversial in his time. There were poems, for example, that were part of Leaves of Grass that were left out of some publications of that work, particularly in Britain.

There was a lot of discussion about whether his work was appropriate in some cases. But at that gathering, Stoker provided the defense position of the poet. And afterwards he wrote another letter to Walt Whitman, similarly familiar and kind of intimate, where he talked about having defended him because he thinks he is such a great man. And this time he actually mailed it as well as that one that had sat in his desk drawer all of the intervening time. And Whitman got these letters and replied that he hoped that the two of them would one day meet.

And he commented on the unconventional, manly and affectionate way in which Stoker had addressed him. Those are all adjectives that I am quoting from Whitman regarding Bram Stoker's writing. Yeah, if you want to know more about Walt Whitman and his writing, we have a previous episode on him that I feel like has been a Saturday classic not that long ago. But it has been long enough ago since we recorded it that I have no recollection if it mentions Bram Stoker in any way.

I don't think so, because I think I would if I remember so.

Anyway, Whitman had been particularly delighted in all this by a passage in which Stoker called him the, quote, father, brother and wife to his soul. Whitman later told a friend that he felt that Stoker had actually been writing to himself and kind of working through his own thoughts and that he felt compelled to respond to the young man. Although Stoker had hoped that Whitman might one day travel to Ireland and they could meet, Whitman's health at the time kept that from ever happening.

He was not able to travel. But don't give up on that thought. This writing these letters to Walt Whitman are the only instances of writing from Stokers Use where he speaks so openly about himself and his inner world. He tends to kind of keep his private thoughts private for most of the rest of his writing. So they have become a really important part of his history.

In 1876, Stoeger was promoted into the newly created position of inspector of Courts of Petty Sessions, and this meant he had to travel to various municipalities and audit their small claims courts. Three years into the job, he published a book on this subject called The Duties of Clerks of Petty Sessions in Ireland. Bless him, the this sounds dull as dirt. I mean, it's literally like going to a court me hearing people talk about things in one biography they mentioned like him, him sitting in on hearings about things like dog licenses, you know, neighbors complaining against one another.

But meanwhile, while working in his civil service job by day and probably finding it a little less than intellectually stimulating, Stoker started a side hustle in the evenings as a writer on more interesting topics. He first wrote theater reviews. He did not get paid for these, but he did create a significant change at the Dublin evening meal in working on them. Up to that point, theater reviews normally published two days after the show that was being reviewed. So if you went to a show on Friday night, the review of it would appear Sunday.

But Stoker, who again was a very busy bee and would pack a lot of work into any day, instigated a shift so that next day reviews would run at the paper. So if you saw that Friday show, the review would run on the Saturday morning. And learning the discipline of writing and doing this on a deadline enabled him to turn his pen to more creative efforts. And he started writing short stories as well. In 1872, he had actually already published the first of his short stories.

That was one called the Crystal Cup. But in the late 1970s, he also started editing a fiction magazine.

In 1875, he published a novella over several installments in the periodical The Shamrock. That story is called The Primrose Path and was published under the name A Stoker Esquire. It unfolds over 10 chapters. This is a morality tale about the dangers of alcohol, and it tells the story of a carpenter from Dublin who moves to London and becomes an alcoholic, which ultimately leads to misery. So much misery.

It's a very dark, dark story in many ways. In late 1876, Bram Stoker wrote a theatre review that changed the course of his life. And we're going to talk about that after we first pause for a sponsor break. Hey, what's up? This is Adam Devine andas home Blake Anderson and Kyle Neurotrophic, and you might recognize the sweet, sultry voices from the hit television program, Workaholic.

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As we said before the break in 1876, Bram Stoker wrote a review, this review was of Henry Irving's performance as Hamlet, and it was glowing. Bram was already something of a Henry Irving fan. He had seen the famous actor on stage for the first time in 1867 when he had attended a performance of the rivals in Dublin. And he had, when he saw that first performance, been thinking about a career in acting himself. And Irving asked Stoker out to dinner as a thank you for this.

This was the start of a long and very close friendship.

Henry Irving became a pivotal figure in Bram Stoker's life, so it's worth giving his biography a little attention just for context. So Irving was born John Henry Broadridge in Somerset, England, on February six, 1838, and when he was six, his parents moved to Bristol, where his father had found a new job. But they left John Henry with an aunt and uncle in Cornwall rather than moving him to a city. He did rejoin his parents.

A few years later, in London, at the age of 10, he started work as a clerk, as a young man, but really always wanted a life in the theatre. So with financial assistance for a relative, he started purchasing costumes and wigs, and then he bought a role for himself in a local production of Romeo and Juliet. He appeared in that as Henry Irving. From there you started working with stock companies as a bit performer and was in hundreds of shows touring Great Britain.

Yeah, I read one statistic that said something like over the course of three years he was in 400 different roles.

So he was doing a lot of very small bit players kind of acting.

Irving really started gaining recognition in the mid late sixties and in 1871 he became very famous for his appearance in the Bells at the Lyceum Theatre. He appeared at the Lyceum as the star of the company for the next several years. And it was in late 1876 that he starred in Hamlet, which was, of course, reviewed by Bram Stoker for the Dublin Evening Meal. And after reading that review in the morning, Irving wanted to have dinner with Stoker that very evening.

The two men wrote letters to one another for several years, and in 1877, Irving made a move that really changed soakers life. He purchased the Lyceum Theatre in London and asked Stoker to be its manager. Irving would work as the director of the productions and of course also star in them. And then Stoker would handle the business from tickets to press releases and managing the staff. This was a really big ask. Henry Irving was the most famous actor in late 19th century England, and he was also known to be intense and demanding and uncompromising.

And Bram Stoker, who adored Irving, didn't think twice about it. He bid adieu to Ireland and his civil service job to start anew as Henry Irving's business manager, essentially in 1878.

And this job was not a hobby job, so the two of them could hang out. The Lyceum was large with a seating capacity of 2000, and it was a social hub for London society. In addition to all the regular business of his position entertaining the illustrious patrons of the theatre after shows with luxurious dinners that also fell under Stokers job description. This is a gigantic job for one person. Yes, it is. In doing this, though, he met numerous luminaries including Mark Twain, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and Prime Minister Gladstone.

This is so much work. And despite these long hours demanded of this job, Stoker still found time to write. And this was on top of the fact that he was writing several dozen letters a day on behalf of Henry Irving. So handling both his business correspondence and his personal correspondence and things like fan mail somehow while doing all of this, Stoker also got married in 1878 to Florence Balcom.

Florence was 11 years younger than he was and was pretty outgoing, whereas he was more shy and reserved her claim to historical fame as being the exquisitely pretty girl that Oscar Wilde fell in love with. And she didn't apparently tell Wilde that she had married his friend from Trinity while he was off traveling. Oscar Wilde wrote her a letter that he wished to have a gold cross back that he had given to her because it represented the sweetest time of his youth. She told him that he could come to their home and get it, but he thought that would be inappropriate and asked that they meet at her parents home instead.

And Florence, for her part, also wanted something back.

She wanted all of the letters that she had sent Oscar Wilde when they were corresponding in courting. It is unclear if these things were ever exchanged and given back to each other. This whole interaction and this sort of triangle of relationships is often summarized as Florence having the choice to marry either Bram Stoker or Oscar Wilde. But while Oscar Wilde in. His writing to her does seem to have really been hurt by Florence marrying his friend, there's no evidence that he was ever suggesting that he should be her husband or that they should get married.

And while and Stoker did remain friends, despite this whole thing, Bram and Florence had one child, a son named Noel. That was the first year after they were married. Maybe in response to finding himself a father in 1881, Stoker published a book of children's stories called Under the Sunset. There didn't seem to be a lot of discord in the Stoker marriage, but there also didn't seem to be that much closeness or devotion between them either. They did a lot of stuff separately.

Stoker was a man who valued efficiency and organization, and he was absolutely excellent at managing Erving's every need at the theater. And he seemed to put his job and Irving ahead of everything else in his life, including his own family. For example, the newlywed stokers even skipped a honeymoon. Instead, Bram and Florence had traveled to Birmingham so Bram could work. Stoker had not even told his boss that he was getting married. In 1883, the Lyceum Theatre mounted a tour in North America.

Stoker managed all of the logistics. This is the first of many such tours, and Stoker collected his experiences into a travelogue called A Glimpse of America that came out in 1886. On these travels to the US, Stoker met two presidents, McKinley and Teddy Roosevelt, and more importantly, he was finally able to meet Walt Whitman.

And at this point, these two writers had been trading letters for years. So there was a pretty easy friendship to their meeting, although descriptions kind of make it sound like Stoker was initially a little nervous. There was one blemish to mar this beautiful occasion, though. Henry Irving had insisted on going to meet Walt Whitman as well. So Stoker felt a little bit cheated of the intimate conversation that he had dreamed of having with his idol. Whitman noted also that Stoker had switched from going by Abraham Stoker to Bram Stoker, and he did not particularly like that shift in name.

He just didn't think it was very dignified. But overall, it was a really, really good meeting. And Stoker declared Walt Whitman to be, quote, a man amongst men. During the 80s 90s, Stoker was still publishing novels, including The Waters Move and that future star crossed lovers as part of the story. There's also the shoulder of Shasta, which is a romance set in Northern California, even as these books are being published. He was also working on what would become his masterpiece, Dracula.

While Bram Stoker was normally a very fast writer, Dracula took him far longer than his previous novels. He wrote it over the course of seven years, or perhaps even longer. But that's how long we know he was working on it while he was touring with Irving and working on other writing projects.

We'll talk a little more about some of the research that went into the most famous of Stokers books after we first take a break for a word from the sponsors that keep stuff you missed in history class going.

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And now I hope they will be for you to please listen to you and me both on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. If you look at the notes the stoker compiled as he was assembling his vampiric tale, it becomes really apparent that he was, as we mentioned earlier, meticulous. He had carefully plotted out Jonathan Harker's journey to Transylvania by train, using actual train schedules and only using connections that he believed would have actually worked.

And he created a table of all of the correspondence that would appear in the book to ensure that the dates that they posted in the dates that they would arrive in the recipient's hands was realistic. But it also seems as though all of his work running a theatre and tours kind of informed the way he constructed narrative.

He also was a writer who really believed in research and his work researching what would become the novel. Dracula is really deeply associated with the town of Whitby, England, on the country's east coast. He is said to have visited a library in Whitby to look at a specific selection of the special collections title by William Wilkinson, which is an account of the principalities of Wallachia and Moldavia with various political observations relating to them. That is from this book that he is said to have learned of the name Dracula in relation to Vlad to Peche.

Prior to this, Stoker was planning to name his villainous character, Count Whump here. This was the rare book. It's an odd thing for Stoker to have just known about, but a friend he knew from his theater circle are Manyas van Bouri had told him about the story of the Lockean count and the book that he could find it in. Yeah, this is a very serious piece of knowledge.

It's a very strange thing, right? I can only imagine as a librarian having someone walk in and be like, hey, you know that rare book that you don't even tell people you have?

I would like to see it, please.

I mean, it's literally that strange. Stoker then visited the Whippy Museum to work on that route that we mentioned a moment ago for Harker to take, including making notes about latitude and longitude. And next, Stoker consulted with the Royal Coast Guard at the nearby harbor and discussed a topic they would figure prominently in the story of Dracula. In 1885, the ship Dmitri had left the port of Narva in Estonia and had run aground near Whitby. According to the locals, only a few members of the crew survived.

And there was a black dog that emerged from the ship and ran off. While rescue efforts were underway, the Demitri had been carrying crates of silver sand. That may sound mysterious, but silver sand is actually a fine white sand that is commonly used in construction mortar.

But if you've read Dracula, that might sound familiar, but not exactly the way you remember it. Stoker borrowed the story of the Demitry for the novel, making the ship the conveyance of Count Dracula from his home country to London. But in the fictional version, the name is changed to the Demetre, which also invokes the Greek goddess and its associations with the cycle of life and death. And Narva changes to Varna, Bulgaria, as the departure point for the ship and Stokers fictionalized version.

The silver sand remains, but the ship is also filled with crates of Earth from Count Dracula homeland. And then, of course, the black dog becomes an embodiment of the vampire himself.

Stokers Research wasn't confined to Whitby. He continued to consult the library regularly to make notes that would contribute to Dracula once he was back in London, but would be is very closely associated with the book. At this point. Vampire stories long predated Dracula and like there are vampire like entities like all over the world and in various mythology and folklore and fiction. But Stoker's version of vampirism is really what we've come to know is like the classic vampire tropes, the vampire being able to shape shift into animals, the count suddenly becoming almost crazed with thirst when Harker cuts himself shaving and the vampire needing to be invited into a home.

All that's present here in the 1981 Icelandic edition of Dracula titled Mocked Mir Krasna, which translates to Powers of Darkness. The preface that Stoker wrote includes insistence that the events relate in the Dracula story are true writing quote, I am quite convinced that there is no doubt, whatever that the events here described really took place, however unbelievable and incomprehensible, they might appear at first sight and I am further convinced that they must always remain to some extent, incomprehensible. Although continuing research in psychology and natural sciences may in years to come give a logical explanation of such strange happenings, which at present neither scientists nor the secret police can understand.

I state again that this mysterious tragedy which is here described, is completely true in all its external respects, though naturally I have reached a different. Collusion on certain points then those involved in the story, but the events are incontrovertible and so many people know of them that they cannot be denied.

So this has led to all kinds of speculation since it came out about whether Stoker was referencing Jack the Ripper here. The Icelandic version of the book is different from the originally published version, though having been abridged quite a bit when it was translated back into English in 2014, it became really apparent that the original translator of Stokers work into Icelandic Vladimir Amundsen had reworked the plot significantly and created a very different story.

I remember when the English speaking world found out about this and was like, Yeah, it's actually really good if anybody wants to seek it out. I think right now, as we record this in October 2020, if you have an Amazon Prime account, I think you can download the Kindle version for free. And Audible has the audio version available as a freebie. And it's really quite delightful. And if you are a person who loves Dracula, it's very interesting because they're characters you have never seen before in the story are events play out very differently.

Some things are condensed, some things are gone completely. And it's just a new way to experience this piece of law.

Yeah, I also feel like I should just clarify that most people in Iceland also speak English. When I say the English speaking world, I mean like places like the United States and Britain. Yes. When Dracula was originally published in 1897, it was really well received, but it really didn't hit the global long reaching popularity it would eventually achieve. It was kind of like, you know, if you see a movie and it's like a great movie that year, but you don't think like, oh, this is going to launch a gazillion things.

Stokers Mother Charlotte is said to have quite liked it and actually believed it would be a huge success and be one of the things for which her son would be remembered. Publishers in the United States were not initially interested in this story, so Stoker actually purchased the U.S. copyright for himself. The first American edition of the book appeared in 1899.

Analysis of the text alongside Stokers Life Story has sometimes led people to believe that Dracula as a character is based at least partially on Henry Irving and his demanding nature. It's also possible that rather than modeling it on, Irving Stoker was kind of thinking about how Irving could play the count and a stage version of the story that actually did not work out. Stoker had arranged a reading of the Dracula story in play for him at the theater. Before the novel came out, Irving declared it dreadful.

The Fool. At this point in time, the Lyceum was faltering. The plays that they staged were not doing as well as they once had, and Stoker had thought that Dracula might be an opportunity to regain some interesting financial footing for the business. But Irving would not have it. And then the theatre had a fire. The building was not destroyed, but they lost a lot of their stock, props and scenery. It was expensive and messy as all of these problems piled up and the Lyceum had to enter into receivership so that its assets could be liquidated to cover its debts.

The productions continued, although in less grand stagings than the theatre had once seen. Henry Irving gave his last performance in October 1985. He died that night just after returning to his hotel. Stoker got there soon after his friend had collapsed, but it was too late to save his life. After Irving's death, Bram Stoker wrote about his own life and his long business partnership and friendship with Irving in a two volume book titled Personal Reminiscences of Henry Irving. This was Stokers most popular work in his lifetime.

Although this was not some scandalous reveal of the man behind the public face, Bram Stoker wrote of Irving in the most positive adulations soaked way imaginable.

At this point, Stoker was without the job that had required all of his attention for so many years. And so he turned to writing full time. From 1985 to 1911, he published several short stories and novels in addition to his Irving memoir. The last of these was the layer of the white worm, the very strange horror tale with a lot going on in terms of plot threads, including a story about mongooses. Yeah, there's a whole lot going on in that.

Some of it is very outdated in terms of how different peoples of the worlds are perceived.

In his last years, Stoker found himself financially strapped. He did some more theater management to make ends meet, but primarily he continued to focus on writing. Dracula continued to be popular enough to earn some royalties. And Stoker also wrote a bit as a journalist for The Daily. Chronicle profiling notable figures of the day, he also did something that seems a little bit odd, which is that he took up the flag of censorship as if he was pro censorship.

He advocated for banning inappropriate books and writing that, quote, A close analysis will show that the only emotions which in the long run harm are those arising from sex impulses. During that time, his health also declined. He had a series of strokes starting in 1986 and in 1910 he had what he described as a breakdown from overwork.

That was on a petition for a grant from the Royal Literary Fund in 1911. Continually dwindling finances led Bram and Florence to move into a more modest apartment. They left the one that had been their home in London for more than three decades. Bram Stoker died at the age of 64 in 1912. That was the same week that the Titanic sank in the days leading up to his passing. He had, like all of London, been transfixed by the story of the ship's demise and the investigation that was soon to begin.

Even in death, Stoker left something of a mystery. There are three causes of death listed. They are kidney disease, exhaustion and locomotor ataxia. So that last one locomotor ataxia was generally used as a synonym for tertiary syphilis. And that, of course, has led to all kinds of speculation about various, usually salacious ways that he could have contracted syphilis. But looking at all of his symptoms and his behavior leading up to his death, that doesn't really add up.

It's possible that he was misdiagnosed due to some of the lingering effects of the strokes he had had. But we will not ever really know.

Yeah, I have read some biographers are like we're not even sure why the coroner put multiple causes of death when just saying kidney disease would have covered it. But this fascination with the possibility that Stoker could have had syphilis is really part of a much bigger speculation that has gone on for over a century about the author's sexuality. And he seems in so many ways to be a tangle of repression and confusion regarding sexuality and desire in his writing with so much erotic content that it sometimes seems he doesn't even realize he is, including there are multitudes of papers analyzing the sexuality of Dracula and the disdain for the Victorian new woman that is present in a lot of stokers work.

His obsession with figures like Whitman and Irving and his friendship with Oscar Wilde, who he saw go through the trial that ultimately, you know, kind of ruined Oscar Wilde life, have naturally led to speculation about an attraction to men that he may never have truly recognized. But this, like his childhood infirmity and his cause of death, can never be conclusively known.

What we do know, though, is that Dracula has never been out of print. It has been adapted into films and musicals and ballet and has inspired innumerable other vampire stories. And it also just continues to do so.

Oh, Bram Stoker's Dracula.

We can talk more about it in the behind the scenes. Yes, he's so fascinating and complex and I really did not know all of that Walt Whitman stuff to the degree that played out well. And I took a second while we were kind of in our in a and a sponsor break moments to see. I don't think we mentioned any connection to Bram Stoker in the Walt Whitman episode.

Yeah, I don't think so.

I, I, yeah, I want to watch all of the Dracula now and think about him in this way.

I don't have regular listener mail. I have an illustrative tale.

Oh, I'm eager for this. Well, it's just one of those things where it's kind of a peek behind how this works. And you mentioning that you looked up in the Walt Whitman episode, whether we mentioned Bram Stoker kind of plays into it. This is I got a Facebook message from our listener and our friend Maria, who I met through the podcast and have, you know, exchanged notes with back and forth. We met her also at one of our live shows, and she mentioned that she was doing a paper on Pandemic's and she had found an older episode of Stuff You Missed in History class that talked about the Black Plague.

And she thought there had been a more recent one with the two of us, but couldn't find it in it. It gave me a moment where I was like, I have to look this up because I don't remember. And it is one of those things that I feel like comes up often. And we've talked about it a little before. But I, I always like to illustrate it literally just the same as we were like, did we do it?

Bram Stoker episode There are moments where the Black Death and things like plague in particular, and Bram Stoker is another good example. And Walt Whitman, because he comes up in many things where it's really hard to remember what we have and have not done is a full episode, particularly when that topic comes up in many other episodes as sort of a secondary piece of the story. So it it always cracks me up a little bit because people will often be like you did an episode on this and we're like, no, we didn't.

And sometimes that we will realize that what has happened is that they have stitched together what they thought was a longer episode in their head. Sometimes it is people confusing our show for other shows. Yeah, and I'm not making fun of anybody because I have absolutely done this before where I've been like I remember hearing this on an episode of 99 percent invisible and it was like actually on criminal or something like it was. Those shows are very dissimilar. I don't know how I don't think that's a real example for my actual life.

But we have for sure had people email us and say, hey, I'm trying to find this episode. You all did and I can't find it anywhere. And I'm like, that was not us. I'm really sorry. Yeah, it's just an interesting illustrative example of how and sometimes we don't even know for sure. We literally have to go back to an index that Tracey put together a while back when we were changing over the way our website worked.

Yeah. And she just gathered all of our metadata into a big document, especially when you go back to shows that were before you and I hosted. I go, yeah, I have a lot of gaps in my knowledge of that, even though we try to keep track of it and look at it periodically. But it is an interesting thing and I, I feel like it's a good illustrative example of what has often come up in the show. I feel like it's come up a lot lately of cases like Bram Stoker with Harry Misremembers things about his past.

And there often oftentimes it came up to you in the Ellena Blavatsky episode. People will report even their own biographies incorrectly. And sometimes in some cases, the initial response is to presume a sort of nefarious level that they're lying or covering something up. But it's also worth noting that people have faulty memories.

Yes, often. Also, what occludes historical records is that even when you're talking to someone fairly recently after an event has taken place, they will relate the events incorrectly. Just just a little point of reference for everyone as we all talk about history all the time to remember, personal personal accounts are great and sometimes like the the most primary source you can get, but also to remember that they are not remembering necessarily. Right. Right. And one day someone will be like Holly and Tracy remembered stuff incorrectly and we'll be like, that is correct.

Yeah, I definitely remembered it incorrectly all the time.

Anyway, that was my little trip down. I wonder if people realize how tricky it is to keep track of what we've actually done. Episode If you would like to write to us and ask us questions about episodes we may or may not remember doing, you can do so. And History podcast and I heart radio dot com. You can also find us on social media as missed in history and you can subscribe to the show them. Just remember to do that, you'll have to remember for a second you can do that on the I Heart radio app and Apple podcast or wherever it is you listen.

Stuff you missed in history class is the production of I Heart Radio for more podcasts from My Heart radio visit by her radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. This is the secret syllabus podcast, I am a YouTube and a student at Belmont University. I'm a YouTube and an international student at Cornell University and probably just like you, I remember the good old times when I was a college student and then 20/20 hit.

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