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Hey, all with that, it's just hilarious and I'm just making sure y'all know that I got a book called Carefully Reckless All Black Effect Network. That's the way I sell all my business that y'all already know and can't fully comment on other people's business to. It's respectable but messy at the same time. So make sure you tune in, listen to carefully reckless every Wednesday that's Hump Day or the I Heart Radio Apple podcast or wherever you get shoeboxes. My name is Rita Kaye.


I am Ellen Bernstein Brodsky. This is going on your grandmother. What's the matter with you?


Well, and it is a podcast about the relationship between grandmothers and grandchildren, as my mother would have said, TACA, who wouldn't have wanted a Jewish grandmother?


Sometimes she accidentally live streams. We're like, who's going to tell her?


I'm just hearing about this now coming January 20th. Let's you to call your grandmother on the I Heart radio app, Apple Pie Cakehole, wherever you get your podcast.


Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class A production of I Heart Radio. Hello and welcome to the podcast, I'm Holly Fry, and I'm Tracey Will sit, Tracey, I bet this happened to you. I know it happened to me like you must have had those moments as a child where you thought you were being very insightful. I know. I certainly did. Where I was like, how do I know that what I see is the same thing as other people see had this exact.


Yes, yes.


I also asked my mom one time I was like, Mom, how do how do we know that what I see is green is the same thing as what you see as green. And my mom stay at home mom with two little children did not always have a lot of patience for weird questions. And she was like, it's the same.


I'm not trying to drag my mom in any way, most of our creativity and attentive to our but yeah, this was a case where I liked I just asked her a question. She was not prepared for question time. Here is the thing. I asked the same question of my father, who I did not know. And I don't know that he knew at the time did not see color the way so. So he was trying to describe things. And I just remember I mean, I was probably like seven or eight already, kind of a smart aleck.


And I was just like, OK, this is going nowhere. I'm out. So maybe just saying Green is agreed was a really a better route because that led to a lot of confusion in our lives for a moment until we finally put the pieces together. Right. And really what happened was that and I don't mean to drag my father, but like he was career military. So he's now retired, but his clothes were like sort of prescribed for sure when he stopped being constantly on active duty and started picking out his own clothes.


Some things became readily apparent, which is that that does not go together. My dad, yes, they look they're practically the same color. Oh, we should address this. Right. That's why we never knew for years when you're wearing, like, jeans and a plaid shirt in your off time and then a uniform the rest of the time, it would never come up.


Hmm. Now we learned. But this curiosity about whether other people see the way that you see is really what drives a lot of scientific discovery.


And we are talking about somebody who was curious and did a lot of scientific discovery. But in the case of this subject, who was very well known and respected in his day, he just didn't think about how he or anyone else saw color until he kind of stumbled into it while studying plants and realizing that his vision might be different from other people. And that's John Dalton. And really, John Dalton is far more famous for his work in atomic theory and which builds the foundations of organic chemistry.


But he also wrote one of the first really thorough descriptions of what he called anomalous vision, meaning that he realized he was not perceiving color in the same way as other people. And his descriptions are very entertaining. We're going to read some of them. So today we will talk a little bit about his life, but mostly about this sort of pocket in his scientific work, where he made a brief foray into exploring the world of photoreceptors in color perception, although he didn't use those words for it.


Colorblindness is a term that's falling out of favor because it's not really accurate. Colorblind suggests that somebody can't see color at all. But most people who have historically been diagnosed with color blindness can see colors. They just see them differently. So defective color vision or color vision deficiency are becoming more preferred terms. I feel like I see people describing themselves as colorblind still quite a lot. So this is something that's evolving.


We're still kind of at the beginning of the scientific community shifting to these different terms just and it's really about clarity more than anything else, right? Like, no, you do see color. We'll talk about one exception, but just differently. So we need to make a clearer turn for it. That's not misleading. And color vision deficiency is the inability to distinguish specific colors, red, green and blue and to be diagnosed as colorblind historically or color vision deficient.


Now, a person only needs to have an inability to distinguish one of these colors, but it is possible for someone who has color vision deficiency to be unable to distinguish all three. So in your retina you have cells called rods which perceive light and then three types of cells called cones. Cones are really the important factor here. They are the photoreceptor cells that enable us to perceive color. The human retina contains six million cones. Red sensing cones make up 60 percent of the total number of cone cells.


Green sensing cones make up 30 percent and blue sensing tones make up the remaining 10 percent.


So if all of your cone cells are functioning normally, you are said to have tri chromosomes. You mean you can see three trie of these colors and they combine to to create standard vision.


But it is also possible to have DY chromosomes with only two types of cone cells present or functioning or even monochrome, see where only one type of cone is functioning. Monochrome is a little bit tricky because it can also be used to describe a scenario where none of a person's cones are functioning in a person who has monochrome. Marcy may have other vision issues as well. And monochrome. See that we just talked about with no cone function is kind of the one variation in all of this where the colorblind label would be actually pretty accurate because everything to them appears not in the rainbow of colors, but as a shade of grey.


Most of the time, dichromate see manifest itself in a way that a person can't see a difference between red and green and diplomacy of this nature is broken down into separate classifications based on which types of cones. You and don't work in a person's retina, Prodan LPA describes a state of not being able to see red and due to an opiate is a case where the red cones function, but the green cones do not.


Blue yellow color deficiency, which is a little rarer, is similarly broken down into classifications based on its specific nature in a given person. So someone with a lack of blue cones is said to have tried an opiate. And if they have blue cones but reduce sensitivity to that color, it is actually described as trit anomaly and all color vision deficiency can fall on a spectrum.


Some people have a diminished ability to distinguish red from green, for example, but they're able to see a difference within specific shades of these colors. Yeah, sometimes, you know, people can't hit. The lighter tones of the darker tones get real muddy, but they can see different shades.


It's it's all it manifests in many different ways. And in the United States, an estimated five to 10 percent of the population have some form of color vision deficiency. Usually this gets tested for when people are kids and more boys than girls have colored vision deficiency and the percentage shifts based on race. So there was a 2014 study that gets cited a lot. This is published in the journal Ophthalmology, and it had taken studies of the color vision of 4000 California children, ranging in age from three to six.


And in this study, it was found that among the girls, less than half a percent of them exhibited signs of color, vision, deficiency, regardless of race. But in boys, the numbers were different. Six percent of the white boys in the study were diagnosed with color vision deficiency. Three percent of the Asian boys had some form of color vision deficiency. It was found in fewer than three percent of the Latino boys and less than two percent of black boys.


Genetically, boys are more likely to have red green color vision deficiency because they only need to inherit it from their mother. It is a recessive characteristic that's associated with the X chromosome. So if a female inherits the trait from her mother but not her father, she'll generally have normal color vision. She only has that one X chromosome, but then she could pass the trait on to her own children. And this is different from blue yellow color vision deficiency, which is the dominant characteristic.


And so that only needs to be inherited from one parent. And it is not linked to a person's sex, which I'm just going to say these are related to sex and not to gender. That's a different thing.


Yeah, we're going with kind of that 2014 studies separation of boys and girls, which simplifies the whole discussion. And is is sex assigned at birth? Not necessarily. How if they did that, I would be fascinated if they did the same exact test today and how they would break it out, because it's things have shifted a bit. So if anybody knows of any studies similar to that going on today, I'm very curious.


But here's the thing.


You're probably wondering how we figured all of this out. And in the late 18th century, this idea of people perceiving color differently than most humans was certainly not unknown. King George, the third, for example, reportedly discussed this with an English novelist, Fanny Burney, at court in 1785. And there were some theories about what caused colorization anomalies published in Germany in the late seventeen hundreds. But the first systematic analysis of color vision deficiency appears in 1793, at least the first that we know of.


And that brings us to the person we mentioned at the top of the show, John Dalton.


John Dalton was born in early September 1766. His actual date of birth is either September 5th or September 6th. His parents, Joseph Dalton and Deborah Greenup Dalton, were Quakers and his father made a living as a weaver. The Dolphins had three children who lived to adulthood, and John was the youngest of them. And as a child, John attended a Quaker school and that school changed hands. When John was twelve, John Fletcher, the man who had been running it, gave it to John Dalton's older brother, Jonathan Dalton.


And then Jonathan enlisted John's assistance in this new role. And this set, John, on a path as an educator just kind of delights me that they had a John and a John.


It makes me giggle as well.


John and Jonathan expanded their new careers by taking over a school in Kendall, England, when John was just 14. This is a larger operation than the Quaker Grammar School they had been running, and it included students who bought it as well as day students. This totalled about five dozen students in all, and John was sort of learning on the job. He was studying with scholars to learn math, Latin, Greek and science, to stay ahead of his students and to be able to speak on the subjects of their curriculum.


And keep in mind, again, he's like. Fourteen, fifteen at this point, so he is taking in a lot of information and he stayed in that job for a dozen years and then at the age of 27, John moved on to a new professional post as a mathematics teacher at New College. And this was in Manchester. And he found all this a little bit frustrating, though, because his workload in that job prevented him from having time to pursue his own scientific study.


So he switched gears and decided that he would become a private tutor so that he could manage his own time in a way that would enable him to carry on with his side work. At this point, his work outside of his daily teaching task was focused largely on meteorology. He had been publishing articles on the subject for several years, but he kept studying other sciences as well and all. It was through these studies that he wound up writing a paper that expounded on the idea that not everyone saw colors in the same way.


So this was not the first time the mention of non-standard color vision appeared in print. As we said earlier, surely color vision deficiency has been in play almost as long as humans have existed. And even before Dalton, there had been some mentions of it, including a write up of a man named Thomas Harris that was published in philosophical transactions and that described Harris's inability to distinguish colors, which was published in 1777. We're going to come back to Harris and we'll talk first more about John Dalton.


But before we do all of that, we're going to pause for a brief sponsor break. What do explorers, an Army officer and a Minnesota insurance salesman have in common, they all wanted to be the first to reach the North Pole, but only one of them made it. I'm Katlehong, science editor at Mental Floss and host of the new podcast The Quest for the North Pole, which dives into the centuries long race to explore the Arctic, find the Northwest Passage and conquer the top of the world with a cast of daring adventurers and some pretty determined amateurs, the race to the poll reveals the human desire to solve mysteries of geography and the soul.


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Listen to BuzzFeed Daily. I mean, I heart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. John Dalton presented his paper, which was titled Extraordinary Facts Relating to the Vision of Colors, with observations by Mr. John Dalton at Manchester's Literary and Philosophical Society on October 31st, 1794. He had joined the society upon moving to Manchester. And as scientific papers go, this one is kind of unique in that Dalton himself is really the subject of the paper, or at least his vision was that text opens with, quote, It has been observed that our ideas of colors, sounds, tastes, etc.


, excited by the same object, maybe very different in themselves without our being aware of it. He goes on, quote, I was always of the opinion, though I might not often mention it, that several colors were injudiciously named the term pink and reference to the flower of that name seemed proper enough. But when the term red was substituted for pink, I thought it highly improper. It should have been blue in my apprehension, as pink and blue appear to me very nearly alive, whilst pink and red have scarcely any relation.


He goes on in his introduction to mention how he had learned about light and objects in his scientific studies. But he hadn't really thought about applying any of that information to colors because that entire area, the idea of color seemed kind of confused and odd to them. Like he really was like, why would people group these colors together? Doesn't make any sense. But I guess that's how we've always done it. It was not until he turned his scientific work to botany that he really started thinking about why some color grouping's just made no sense in this study, prompted him to ask other people questions about colors.


He actually uses the example in this paper of asking a person whether a flower was blue or pink, but they always just thought he must be joking because the queries came off as so completely absurd to them.


So he just thought everybody had this weird relationship with color, even though he thought colors made no sense. It didn't really occur to him to wonder if there was something unusual about the way he was perceiving colors. It was a moment in 1792, two years before he presented his paper, that really gave him this moment of pause. That moment happened when he was looking at a geranium by candlelight.


So he had frequently seen these flowers. This particular variety he was looking at were, in fact, pink in daylight. And to him in daylight, he perceived them as sky blue. But by candlelight, he saw this flower as a vibrant red in this significant shift in their color due to lighting changes, startled him and led him to make a quick study by asking a number of friends to look at these same flowers in both daylight and candlelight. All the people he initially asked about it saw them as pink in both lighting conditions, except for his brother, who perceived that same shift of them being sky blue in the day and red and candlelight.


This experience caused him to start a more structured study of light and color, which he did with an assistant who had, quote, normal color vision. First, he used a prism to project sunlight into a dark room and then recorded the number of colors that various people saw in that band of light. Most of them saw six red, orange, yellow, green, blue and purple. He does mention that purple is separated into indigo and violet and Newton's writings on color.


For the purposes a person simply looking at a band of light, that distinction is really nominal. I think we talked about this in one of our episodes that touched on Knewton previously. He put Indigo and Violet in there separately because he wanted there to be seven.


So that's why people typically don't actually see them as two distinct shades and light from a prism. Yeah, or you'll see what you think is maybe a slight difference, but it's hard to be sure. Yeah. So for for Dalton, he just called that one thing. It's purple. When Dalton looked at the prismatic light, though, he could only make out two or sometimes three colors. So generally he just saw yellow and blue or sometimes he would see yellow, blue and a little bit of purple.


And through his work, he identified that the band that he saw is yellow was where other people were seeing red, orange, yellow and green. And he wrote, quote, That part of the image which others call red appears to me little more than a shade or a defect of light. After that, the orange, yellow and green seem one color, which descends pretty uniformly from an intense to a rare yellow, making what I should call different shades of yellow.


Dalton's perception of blue and purple aligned with what other people were seeing and the contrast between the end of his band of yellow and the adjacent blue was really sharp.


So next he did the same collecting of perceptions from himself and others when looking at candle light projected through a prism. And these results were mostly the same. The only exception that Dalton calls out is that for him, the red edge of the image looks more vivid in candlelight than it did looking at sunlight under the same conditions of being put through a prism.


Dalton's paper next breaks out studies of specific colors as he had always perceived them. He starts out by describing colors grouped with red as they appear in the daylight versus candle light. His description of crimson is pretty charming. Quote, Crimson has a grave appearance, being the reverse of every showy and splendid color, a similarly quaint description. This is a description of pink. He breaks that bone as nine parts light blue and one part red, quote, or some other color, which has no other effect than to make the light blue appear dull and faded a little.


He also lists out all the flowers that to him look blue to give the reader a sense of context when he says he says pinks and reds as blue blood, he says appears to him, is the color most people call bottle green. And he mentions that if he saw a light colored stocking that was spattered with either fresh blood or dirt, he would not be able to tell the difference. Visually, I. I love this entire paper so much.


It's exactly like this, though, through his his turn of phrase is quite, quite charming and endearing. He goes on to describe the significant change that Red undergoes for him when viewed in candlelight, he describes it as much more vivid, and the blue no longer being present and instead replaced by yellow tones. While he found most reds and pinks quite drab by daylight in candlelight, they became really vivid and even exciting. Orange and yellow, he says, are not too different for him than anyone else.


When he moves on to discussing Green, he writes, quote, I take my standard idea from grass. This appears to me very little different from red in the face of a laurel leaf is a good match to a stick of sealing wax. And so it will be immediately concluded that I see either red or green or both different from other people. The fact is, I believe that they both appear different to me from what they do to others.


He concludes that blues he generally sees the same as other people and purple is just a little bit different from blue. He described Brown in the same creative way that he does other colors writing quote, My idea of brown I obtained from a piece of white paper heated almost to ignition. He also notes that seeing colors in moonlight presents the same or near same results for him as seeing them in candle light. Lightning gives the same effect as daylight. It doesn't matter whether the sun is rising or setting when it comes to color, and any kind of combustible substance creates the same color perception as any other flame, he concludes.


The section of the paper with, quote, My vision has always been as it is now. His next section breaks out the information that he's collected from other people and their perceptions of color, starting with people he has found who have vision that seems similar to his own.


And Dalton mentions Mr. Harris of Mary Port and his alternate perceptions of color. Dalton thought that based on the description, Harris is a novelist. Vision might have been. From his own, he discovered that one of Harris brothers was still alive, so he made contact and went to visit. Upon questioning this brother and testing his vision, Dalton found that the Harris family seemed to have the same genetic variable that he and his brother had when it came to how they perceive the colors of the world around them.


This led to a general line of questioning of the students and colleagues that Dalton regularly came in contact with, kind of as a subject group. And he found a small proportion of them shared his specific experience regarding pink and light blue, looking similar by daylight and different by candlelight. Dalton also found just a couple of examples of people who, quote, differ from the generality and from us, also meaning that they seem to have a different type of color vision deficiency.


He also mentioned a shared experience among all of these people that just as with him, it had not occurred to them that they were seeing things differently from the majority of people, but that they, too, found the names and groupings of colors perplexing. At times, though, his paper was really the beginning of science's study of color vision deficiency. Even in his really relatively small dataset, Dalton was already capturing information that showed a difference in instances of color vision deficiency in regards to people's sex.


He noted that in the Harris family, four of six sons in the family had what would come to be known as color vision deficiency, sometimes also called Dalton ism for obvious reasons, but their sister didn't. Similarly, Dalton and his brother Jonathan had the same color experience, but their sister did not. He wrote, quote, It is remarkable that I have not heard of one female subject to this peculiarity. He also included the line, quote, I did not find that the parents or children in any of these instances have been so unless in one case.


So even though he didn't really realize it, he was gathering information on the recessive genetic nature of red green colour vision deficiency.


Next up, we'll talk about what Dalton thought was causing his anomalous vision. But first, we will take a break for word from our sponsors.


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This president, the thing that I disagree with him most about is the way he has divided this nation.


Biden would end his campaign just weeks after the interview was recorded and the tapes were never made public until now.


But the harder test is it's not the one. Can I do it better than my opponent? The harder test everyone goes to bed, is sitting in this library by yourself and you ask yourself, how can I be the kind of president that I think America should have? Can I be the kind of president that Abraham Lincoln was? Can I be the kind of president Franklin Roosevelt was? Can I can I be a great president? Listen to this, never before said Joe Biden interview, only on the Frost Tapes podcast.


Well, I'm not sure I'd like to talk about that.


The third section of Dalton's paper tries to unravel the cause of what he was referring to as, quote, are anomalous vision, one of the ways that he worked out his theory here was to work with transparent colored liquids and then he would have various people look at objects through those transparent colored liquids to record their perception of color.


So he would hold up a thing behind like a tank of blue water, whatever, and ask them what they saw. And because people with, you know, quote unquote normal vision described color similar to what he saw in his normal day to day life when they looked through a tank of blue water, he came to this incorrect conclusion that, quote, One of the humours of my eye must be a transparent but colored medium so constituted as to absorb red and green rays, principally because I obtain no proper idea of these in the solar spectrum and to transmit blue and other colors more perfectly.


Honestly, this is a totally reasonable conclusion based on understanding.


He outlined how this would impact the perception of various colors and then addressed why the colors change so drastically for him and others like him in candlelight writing, quote, When any kind of light is less abundant and blue, as is the case with candle light compared to daylight, our eyes serve in some degree to temper that light so as to reduce it merely to the common standard. The Earth's atmosphere, he believed, was a blue fluid that, quote, modifies the sun's light so as to occasion the commonly perceived difference.


So this paper was met with some curiosity and his very detailed comparisons of his vision to that of other people who saw color normally offered a lot of insights. But this idea of a blue humor in his eye that was causing his anomalous color vision was kind of dismissed by the scientific community. And in response, Dalton, who really thought he was on to something with it, donated his eyes to science. We wrote up a document that requested that his eyes be dissected upon his death to see if he had been correct and whether there was any other physical evidence to explain the way he perceived color.


A little less than a decade after Dalton's writing on his anomalous vision, scientist Thomas Young published on The Theory of Light and Colors. And this put forth the idea that there were receptors in the eye for each of the colors red, green and blue. So he was totally on to it. And Young addressed Dalton's work and his anomalous color vision with a different theory that there was a, quote, absence or paralysis of those fibers of the retina which are calculated to perceive red.


He was so completely on the right track that you would think that this would have just broken our science wide open. But no, no advancement slowed down after this in studying the eye. And that went on for decades. Yeah, it was like people were like neat idea and they moved on to other stuff. Beyond the study of color vision deficiency, John Dalton, of course, continued to make important contributions to the scientific world concurrently while working on figuring out why he couldn't see flowers the same way as other people.


He also published a work titled Meteorological Observation and Essays. He published additional work in meteorology as well, and his work in this field led to some fellow scientists considering him the father of meteorology. Although his work, any time somebody gets called the father of something, I always have to go because his work was, of course, building on that of his mentors on the subject. He had particularly had a really good mentor in meteorology when he was studying as a teacher.


Dalton also did a lot of work in chemistry, specifically atomic theory. His work in this area came to some incorrect conclusions, but it was also instrumental in moving the scientific community away from the long held idea. That matter was at the basic level, all the same and just configured differently to form different things.


Dalton championed the idea that there were all kinds of different atoms, different sizes and weights, and that they behaved differently. He started a project to measure the masses of different atomic particles, to begin cataloguing all of the different atoms that could be found. He presented the first table of atomic weights in 1883, and his work in this area propelled organic chemistry forward. He is also sometimes called the father of chemistry. Dalton had joined the Manchester Literary and Philosophical Society in 1793, when he was still in his twenties.


In 1817, as a man in his early fifties, he became its president. But he held this position for the rest of his life. His scientific career slowed down quite a bit.


Yeah, there were some other issues where his. He had some papers that were denied for publication, and it just wasn't like the the heyday he had had when he was a little younger. He had the unique distinction, though, of seeing, for example, his own statue erected in Manchester during his lifetime for his accomplishments. And while he had been barred from an education at Oxford or Cambridge as a young man because he was a Quaker, not an Anglican, he received honorary degrees from both later in life.


He also served as a foreign associate of the French Academy of Sciences on April 18th, 1837. Dalton, who was 70 at the time, had a stroke that resulted in a partial paralysis. And then he had another small stroke or possibly a seizure. Several days later, being pretty pragmatic, he set his affairs in order as soon as he was recovered enough to do so. But then he lived another seven years. He continued as president of the Literary and Philosophical Society.


He made visits to leg country. That's something that he had been doing throughout his life. Yeah, it was a very close call. And then he kind of was like, well, I'm still alive. I'm going to keep doing my living stuff. John Dalton died finally on July 27th, 1844. He was really, really beloved in Manchester by this point. And he was given a public funeral by the city on August 12th, 1844. An estimated 40000 people paid their respects before Dalton was interred.


The day after Dalton's death on July 28, 1844, his wishes were carried out. His eyes were dissected. This was done by Dr Joseph Grantham to determine whether this idea about having a blue humor in his eye was correct. Of course, it was not ransom to describe what he found in Dalton's eye as, quote, perfectly lucid. And some also sliced off a section of the posterior pole of the eye and used it as a lens to see if colours that were viewed through it, especially red and green, took on a different hue, which they did not.


But Dalton's eyes were not discarded after that. So for clarity, he did the full dissection on one eye. That little part he sliced off was from the second eye, so he had only taken the primary samples from one. The other was mostly intact and the remains of Dalton's eyes were preserved and were eventually given to the Manchester Literary and Philosophical Society. That was not the end of their story.


A hundred years after Dalton died in 1995, a DNA analysis was conducted on his preserved eyes, and this examination determined that he had Duder an opiate, conclusively proving that he had red green colour vision deficiency. Two years after those findings were published in 1997, the eyes were donated to the Science and Industry Museum in Manchester. They remain in the collection there to this day.


Yeah, you can find pictures of them online. In the 1970s, German anatomist Max Schulz identified the rods and cones of the retina and deduced that rods were dedicated to night vision and cones to dilate vision. Then later, in the 1870 Vilhelm, Kunhardt laid the groundwork for a concept of photochemical basis for vision.


And the 1890 Spanish neuroscientist Santiago Rahmani studied the retina and drew detailed diagrams of the cells within it. Cahow scientific drawings are incredibly intricate and very beautiful, and they were part of an art exhibit at NYU in twenty eighteen.


Yeah, so, you know, all of the things that would have explained to Dalton what was going on came a little too late. There was also a cool discovery in nineteen ninety one. So fairly recently a new kind of photoreceptor was discovered, the ganglion cell, and that once again refined our knowledge of how the human eye takes in and processes visual information, always learning.


Oh, I really, really, really loved Dolton story and I love this part of it.


I knew a little bit more about, you know, his work in in establishing the basis of a lot of the chemistry we use. But I didn't I had never read this paper before. And I honestly, it's the most fun read.


It's very sweet. I will switch gears completely for our listener mail, though.


OK, one, I won't read his mail because it's pretty short, but I'll sum it up. I wanted to say hi to Todd, who wrote us. He was listening to our transfusion episodes while he donated platelets. So thank you, Todd, for donating platelets. We have had several people write in to make sure that we let people know that donating blood is very important and it is. So this is your PSA again and again. Thank you, Todd.


But my actual email that I'm going to read is from our listener, Laryssa. I think that's probably how she pronounces it, who writes Hi, Holly and Tracy. I've been a fan since 2016 and I always look forward to new episodes each week. It helps keep my brain limber while at home with the kids during lockdown, which we are currently experiencing here in Ontario. Recently, I have been thrilled to make connections between your podcast and my library.


I just finished reading Sharida Malins, Empire of Wild, which is a novel set within the Matee community of Georgian Bay, Canada, in which a Rugaru plays a major part, the moment of the novel that answered the niggling part of my brain. That said Ribadu, where have I heard that before? Was when one of the characters leaves 13 objects on her porch to protect herself because the Rugaru can only count to 12. I'm so curious about how the creature became part of both culture.


Surely the link must be the French. This may have set off the great Rugaru investigation of 2021 on my part of investigations. Yes, we mentioned in that episode, although we didn't go super deep because there's not really documentation of it, that since Rugaru is kind of a shift from Luger who which is French for werewolf, it seems to have traveled over with French colonists and French fur trappers kind of became pretty standard in in that area in the north and then migrated south into Louisiana.


That is the best guess as to how it traveled since we don't have, like I said, her documentation. But I love that the Rugaru and his inability to count beyond a dozen is still delighting people. So laugh because we need it right now.


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We have elected scoundrels in America because because the people have said, well, at least there are scoundrel, but it comes back in the end. I think so.


I think so. In 1987, David Frost sat down with then Senator Joe Biden for an over two hour interview at age 44. Biden was making his first bid for the presidency just as the Reagan years were coming to an end.


This president, the thing that I disagree with him most about is the way he has divided this nation.


Biden would end his campaign just weeks after the interview was recorded and the tapes were never made public until now. But the harder test, if it's not the one, can I do it better than my opponent? The harder test, everyone who goes to bed is sitting in this library by yourself. And you ask yourself, how can I be the kind of president that I think America should have? Can I be the kind of president that Abraham Lincoln was?


Can I be the kind of president Franklin Roosevelt was? Can I can I be a great president? Listen to this, never before said Joe Biden interview, only on the Frost Tapes podcast. Well, I'm not sure I'd like to talk about that.