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To some, he Ziggy Stardust, to others, the thin white Duke or Major Tom, but who is David Bowie really? To answer that will have to go off the record, off the record as a new music biography podcast.

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We have gotten a lot of requests over the years for an episode on Lamptey Googe, who's known at least outside of France, primarily for a night, a 1791 pamphlet titled Declaration of the Rights of Woman and the Citizen. And this was published as a direct response to the 1789 Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen with the Declaration of Right of the Rights of Man using the French word citoyen and de Goosies response, using the more feminine form of that word, citoyen.

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They look very different in writing, but they're pronounced a little similarly limp to goosies writing and political activity, though, went way, way beyond that one pamphlet that she's famous for now. And also her execution, which happened just before the start of the reign of terror, was not because of the calls for equal rights for women, but she's become so associated with the whole of the thing. So that's who we're going to talk about today. And Alimta Googe, her upbringing and early life are really hazy and they are full of contradictions, some of which are thanks to her own writing

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We do know that she was born Marie Gousse on May seven. Seventeen forty eight in Montalbán, which is north of Toulouse in southern France. Her mother was an Olympe Moisy, a maid servant whose father was a draper and at least legally, Marie's father was a butcher named Pierre Goos. But there were rumors that her father was actually Jean-Jacques Lefranc, who would later become Marquita Pomponio and the LaFrance and the Mozes had been connected for generations. And although Jacques was only five years her senior, he was an Olympus godfather.

The TAAN River, which is prone to really dangerous and dramatic flooding, runs through the region where the Goose family lived. And when the young Marie Gousse was only to peer Gousse died as a result of one of these floods. Aside from the fact that it was connected to the flooding, we don't really know the details of the cause of death. I mean, an obvious one would be that he drowned. But, you know, flooding also causes disease and famines and other issues.

So we don't really know. At some point after that, Marie's mother got married again, this time to a police officer. And beyond that, we don't know much else about Marie Goosies early life.

She probably got at least some education at an Ursuline convent. She could write well enough to sign her own marriage. Documents in the Ursuline convent would have been the most likely place for a girl of her station to have become literate. That marriage was to Louis Obree, who was a caterer who had been one of the late Pierre Goosies Associates. And this happened when Marie was only 17. Marie and Louis had a son, also named Pierre, about two years later, and then a few months after that, Louis died.

This was also as a result of a taan river flood. And once again, we don't really know much clarity on the details beyond it being related to the flooding.

Marie's marriage to Louis had been against her will, and after his death she refused to marry again. And she also refused to conform to what was expected of a widowed mother. Instead, she moved to Paris in 1767. It is unclear whether she took her son with her or whether she left him in someone else's care while he was young. And she also changed her name to Olympe the Googe, drawing from parts of Anna Lemp and Pierre goosies names and also adding the D.

E, which made it sound a little more aristocratic. She may have also meant her new name is sort of a racy joke because at the time Googe was a slang term for bawdy women, which I found totally opposite accounts of whether she took her son with her or left him with someone else.

Regardless, though, in Paris, OLAP, Tagore's was supported by Jacques Batra deros. Yeah, who was a wealthy man who owned a military transport company, and she spent her first years in Paris, really immersed himself, study, attending and possibly even hosting literary salons and then poring over the work of enlightenment thinkers, particularly Jean-Jacques Rousseau. During these years, she also would have expanded her knowledge of French as a language. Her first language was actually a regional dialect called Occitan, because French was their second language and her formal education was pretty minimal.

She did most of her writing in French through a secretary in 1784, Jean-Jacques Lefranc, Markit de Pompeya died and Duche started working on an epistolary novel that would be published in seventeen eighty eight. And that was called Madame de Wellman's Memoirs on the Ingratitude and Cruelty of the Flower Family toward her own, which rendered such services to the Seuss' Flower Corps.

So this book is one of the reasons why some of the biographical accounts of Elliptic uses early life are really contradictory. She framed this book as a real correspondence with only the names changed to protect the reputations of the people involved.

Today, though, most sources describe this book as semiautobiographical.

the letters come together to paint the flatcar family as having been cruel and indifferent to Madame Development's mother with the marquee trying to distance himself from her while never flat out denying that he is the father of her child. The unnamed editor and Madame Development are both generally interpreted as stand ins for herself with the Marquita Flower representing the Marquis de Bumpiness.

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But sometimes they also use the letters contained in it to try to kind of glean some details about the goosies early life. On the other hand, the first to Googe biography available in English is Women's Rights in the French Revolution, a biography of William Tegus. That's by Sophie Morsey, and it was translated from French. This biography was first published in 2007, and the author cites these memoirs, which again is an epistolary novel. She cites them repeatedly as fact, like the footnotes are literally this book in this novel was inspired in part by Layli Isn't Danziger's, which had been published in 1782 and was also written in the form of letters exchanged among its characters in the memoir of Madame Developement

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The main characters are Madame Development and her half brother, son of the Marquis de Flanker. In addition to their correspondence, the book also includes Madame de Vilmos correspondence with other family members. Part of this book's framework is an unnamed narrator or editor who's brought these letters together to publish and also takes part in some of the correspondence. And this unnamed editor maintains that all the facts she's putting forth in the letters are, quote, authentic truths. And then what starts out as a comic story told through letters gradually shifts to document Madame Developments, attempts to prove that she is really the Maki's daughter and to get his recognition and support.

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Biographer Sophie Meisei contends that the Marquis de Pumping yeah was unquestionably attempt a goosies biological father and that everybody in the community knew this, even that the Lefranc family had taken pains to send Jean-Jacques away from the area to separate him from another lamp when they were young. This just isn't something that it's possible to conclusively know at this point, though, for a lamp to goosies own part, she didn't overtly claim that the Marquita Pumpernickel was her father, but she did sort of seem to stoke the idea that he could be, since he had been dead for four years by the time the memoirs of Madame Valmont was published.

We really do not have his thoughts on this matter at all unless the letters really are his real letters, as the book contains, which seems like a very long walk.

But I mean, it could be like we just so we don't really know. And this purported connection to the market, the bumping may have given unlimited access to theatrical and literary circles that she might not have had otherwise. Apart from his status. The Murky was a poet, playwright and literary critic whose biggest claim to fame at this point is having become the arch enemy of the way, more famous French writer Voltaire. So the idea that she was his unacknowledged daughter may have opened some doors for her, and it definitely seems to have led to some of her later advocacy on social issues related to children born out of wedlock and their mothers or lapdogs wrote one other novel during her lifetime.

But she was a lot more prolific when it came to writing plays. And we will get some more of that after a sponsor break. I'm Hillary Clinton, we're between seasons on my podcast, you and me both, but this week we're dropping a special bonus episode because let's face it, these are extraordinary times. I'm talking to Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi about the violent insurrection on January six. I'll also be talking about how we can move forward as a country.

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Don't miss our twenty twenty one I heart radio podcast awards, watch on IHA radios, YouTube and Facebook and listen on our radio at January 21st at 9:00 p.m.. We know that investigators had at least one wealthy benefactor who supported her life in Paris, that was Jacques Batra de Rozier, who we mentioned earlier, it's likely that she had other benefactors as well. She may have had romantic relationships with some of them, but like so many other details about her life, it's all pretty vague.

Douche was also friends with Madame de Montasser, wife of Louis Phillipe, the first d'Orleans as the Duke of William. And at one point she was rumored to be having an affair with the Duke son, who was later known as Phillipe Égalité. And this may have been a rumor spread to try to tarnish Degutis reputation, but her son Pierre did wind up getting an appointment as an engineer thanks to the Orlean family, as a Labutta, Goose was making connections to some of the really wealthy and powerful families of France.

She was also writing plays that focused in one way or another on injustice and social issues. They tackled themes like divorce and women's rights during and after a divorce, as well as sexual double standards and the existence of debtors prisons, the rights of children born out of wedlock and girls being forced to marry or sent to convents against their will.

Overall, her female characters in these plays had and used their agency, and they supported and protected one another rather than being rivals or adversaries. And when women in plays were victimized, it was not something that was played for its own sake or for shock value. It was connected back to a greater theme of social injustice.

At the same time, though, De Goosies plays didn't necessarily dispel negative stereotypes of women, such as the idea that women were weak or deceitful. Instead, she framed those traits as the inevitable consequences of women's place in French society. While there were individual women who held high positions within the monarchy or the aristocracy, women as a group had very little overt political power. Educational opportunities for girls were really limited, and for most women, their only options for their adult lives were to get married or to enter a convent.

And either way, they had virtually no property rights or control over their own lives and bodies. So, for example, the saw women as deceitful because they had to be to survive in this environment and as weak because they were given no opportunities to build their own strength to.

Googe established a private amateur theatre in Paris, but when it came to public theatre, there was really just one option. The French National Theatre, known as the Comedy Hall, says, which essentially had a monopoly on professional theatre. The comedy film says accepted new plays and then performed them in the order that they were received. So if there was a backlog, which there usually was, there could be a really long delay between a place acceptance and its actual performance.

Accepted plays were not published until they had been performed or until three years after they had been accepted, whichever might come first. That gives you an indication of how big the backlog was. Playwrights whose plays were accepted were given entry privileges at the theatre, but when it came to the performance of the play itself, that was completely out of their control. So especially for new playwrights who were first trying to make a name for themselves, their careers really rested on the whims and political shifts of the comedy fans says this was true for to use.

In 1784, she wrote The More and Merza or the Happy Shipwrecks. Sometimes that's translated as the fortunate shipwreck. This was a melodrama that takes place in the East Indies involving the shipwrecked, aristocratic Sanremo family as well as an enslaved Asian couple. The shipwreck is described as happy because it leads to the enslaved couple being freed. The Goose submitted this play to the Comedy Française anonymously, and it was accepted in 1785 as time passed.

After her play was accepted, Gucht started writing to the theatre and its actors about when it would be performed. She became so insistent that in September of 1785, the troupe leader wrote back to her and told her that they were pulling that play from the repertoire and striking her name from the list of people who had entry privileges at the theatre. The theatre also petitioned to have her arrested. That might sound a little extreme. This was not really a unique situation at all.

It was common for playwrights to become really frustrated with the Comedy Française to the point of being combative with their correspondence was also pretty common for the company to then reverse their acceptance of the play. But what was really unusual was for a playwright who was treated this way to be a woman between 1761. In 1789, the Comedy Française accepted only nine plays written by women. Put that in context, the royal regulations required the company to produce between 25 and 40 new plays a year was not doing that was really performing more like 10 or 12, which honestly still sounds like a large number of plays.

It was accepting more work than it was performing, though. So plays by women just made up a really tiny portion of the theater's repertoire.

I feel like this is the story of so many companies who set really big goals at the beginning of every year. Yet they're OK. You're going to meet them. Aside from only two of those women corresponded with the company about their work. That was the Delaram Sisters who had written a one act comedy together. The comedy film says performed that comedy only once, and the Delaram Sisters felt that it had been dropped in favor of work by better known playwrights.

They revised the play and resubmitted it, and the company rejected that revision six months later.

So while the company had taken the step of penalising other playwrights who pushed too hard with their correspondence, Olympia Goose was really the only woman to face such a treatment that the Delaram Sisters had not had their revision accepted. But like they had also not been stripped from the roles.

There was no warrant out for their arrest or threatened with arrest.

So she wrote to the Duke Dirichlet, who was one of the first gentlemen of the King's bedchamber, noting that while the Comedy Française had treated other playwrights this way, the theater's conduct was, quote, extraordinary toward a woman. The Duke got her status with the company restored, and although the comedy Fraunces still did not perform that play, her correspondence on the subject became a little more conciliatory after this four years passed between the time when the happy shipwreck was accepted and when it was finally performed.

And in that time, Douglas had revised it repeatedly. And in August of seventeen eighty eight, she had printed an unbound version of the play, which was technically allowed under the policies of the comedy fans says.

But it was also considered kind of a shrewd move on her part that she had not quite gotten to that three year mark yet.

She kind of did an end run around the letter of the law. By the time the company did perform the play in 1789, it was shorter. The story took place in the Caribbean and the characters of The More and Merza had become African rather than Asian. The play had been retitled The Slavery of Negroes or the Happy Shipwreck. It's often been described as the first explicitly abolitionist play in French and the first French play told from the point of view of enslaved people.

Even though the comedy says did finally perform this work, the performances themselves did not go smoothly because of its abolitionist focus. It drew heavy criticism from wealthy people who had connections to French colonies in the Caribbean that relied on enslaved labor. Abolitionists praised the play while Landowner's hired hecklers to disrupt the performances.

Yes, some of the people paying people to disrupt the performances would have been just like people who had investments, as well as like people who directly owned these plantations and the enslaved workers who were there. Diggers also claimed that there was sabotage on the part of the actors. The ones who had been cast in the roles of Africans did refuse to darken their skin for the roles. So the idea of white actors in blackface was still absolutely rooted in racism, but it didn't have quite the same connotations in the late seventeen hundreds as it would develop during and after the era of minstrel shows that started to develop in the early eighteen hundreds.

Francis movement for the abolition of slavery was still in its infancy when Olympia Goosh first wrote Zemmour and Merza, the Society of the Friends of Blacks was established in 1788 and De Gucht became a member. Slavery was abolished in France in 1794, although Napoleon restored it in 1882.

By her count, OLAP tegus more than 40 plays, although only 12 of them survive and only four of them are actually staged during her lifetime. And aside from her novels and plays, she also wrote more than 60 political pamphlets during the French Revolution. And we will get to that after another quick sponsor break. Who is David Bowie? Well, that depends on who you ask or which records you play. To some, he's Ziggy Stardust, to others, the thin.

Why do more Major Tom? But who is David Bowie, really? To answer that question will have to go off the record.

My name is Jordan Ron Talk and I'm the host of Off the Record, a new music biography podcast from my heart. Radio off the record goes beyond the songs and into the hearts and minds of rock's greatest legends. Every season profiles one classic artist taking listeners on a wild ride through their extraordinary career. The first season examines the life or rather lives of David Bowie. Each episode of the 11 part audio event tells the story of one of his iconic personas.

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Tune in to. Off the record to find out, listen and follow on the radio Apple podcast wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Hi, it's Heidi from the What to Expect podcast this week on What to expect. I'm so excited to welcome Leslie Odom Jr. and Nicolette Robinson. They have a three year old daughter and a baby on the way. They're opening up about their pregnancy. There is no equivalent for me. We do not have to face our death to bring life into the world and parenting issues to mom and their relationship.

I don't know if there's a sexual clock or whatever it is, but we usually sync up pretty well. Check out Leslie and Nicollet on what to expect podcast wherever you listen to podcasts.

They call their farm or the woman in question was a literary and philosophical debate that had been going on in France and other parts of Europe for hundreds of years prior to the French Revolution, starting in the Renaissance.

It involves questions about the nature of women and about women's rights and status within the society. And a lot of these same questions were argued again during the French Revolution. Although men were doing a lot of this arguing women were also politically active during the French Revolution, particularly when it came to subjects that were considered part of women's sphere. A big one was food and access to food. In 2017, we did an episode on the Women's March on Versailles, which started on March 5th, 1789, and this was a march from Paris to Vusi with the goal of getting the monarchy to address a serious food shortage and returned to Paris women, many of whom were anonymous, published work on subjects like education and poverty, as well as criticizing divorce and inheritance laws that favored men.

The various factions that arose during the revolution varied a little bit and how welcoming they were of women. I say a little bit. It was broader than that. There were some factions that were like, nah, we only have men in our leadership and others who did allow women at least some participation. So women also formed their own political clubs during the French Revolution. Many of those clubs were still focused on the subjects that were considered appropriate for women like food and education.

OLAP to Goosh had some overlap with these other often anonymous women. She wrote on some of the same subjects, including divorce, inheritance and education, particularly education for girls. She called for women to be able to publicly name the fathers of their children born out of wedlock and for those children to be legitimized. She also advocated an end to the dowry system and the creation of services for widows, mothers and children living in poverty. But unlike many other women writers who were often anonymous, she also wrote under her own name.

And she wrote more broadly on other political issues and on women's political and social rights in general. She advocated for professions to be open to anyone, regardless of their sex, their color or their social status. She believed that celibacy requirements for monks and nuns set the stage for abuse and called for them to have marriage rights. She proposed a voluntary tax to try to address wealth inequality and to save the French republic from bankruptcy. She also advocated a luxury tax that would pay for services for the poor.

She called for an end to the death penalty, and she advocated the establishment of a national theater that would focus on publishing and staging the work of women playwrights. Some of the reforms that she advocated were ultimately adopted, including protections for children who are born out of wedlock and divorce rights for women. These were passed into law by the National Assembly in 1792. On August 26, 1789, the French National Constituent Assembly issued the Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen written by the Marquis de Lafayette.

And the ABC is along with Thomas Jefferson. And that includes 17 articles outlining the fundamental rights of male citizens. And in 1791, the National Assembly adopted a new constitution, one that gave the right to vote only to male taxpaying citizens.

To a lot of people. This was a little at odds with the French Revolution's professed values, including liberty and equality. The goosies response to all of this was the Declaration of the Rights of woman and the citizen, sometimes translated as the Declaration of the Rights of women and the female citizen. Thanks to her use of the word citoyen, it followed the same basic format as the Declaration of the Rights of Man, including a preamble, 17 articles and an epilogue.

It was also dedicated to Marie Antoinette, encouraging her to take up the cause of the revolution and to use her position to advance the cause of women's rights. Deju published this on September 14th, 1791, to coincide with Louis the sixteenth ratification of the new constitution that excluded women from full citizenship rights. And the prologue to this piece began, quote, Ma'am, are you capable of being fair? A woman is asking.

At least you will allow her that right. Tell me what gave you the sovereign right to oppress my sex? The 17 articles follow the Declaration of the Rights of Man point by point. And in some cases they simply used the word woman or women in place of man or man, or they specifically include women in addition to men where they're referenced. So Article one of the Declaration of the Rights of Women, for example, is, quote, Woman is born free and remains equal to man in rights.

Social distinctions may be founded only on the common good. Other articles add additional nuance. For example, Article ten in the Declaration of the Rights of Man is, quote, No one shall be disquieted on account of his opinions, including his religious views, provided their manifestation does not disturb the public order established by law in the rights of women. That is written as, quote, None must be disquieted for their opinions. However, fundamental woman is entitled to mount the scaffold.

She must be equally entitled to mount the rostrum so long as her manifestos do not disturb the public order.

According to the law, Article Eleven is about free expression and in the Goosies writings, she specifically cites the rights of mothers to name their children's fathers. Quote, The free expression of thoughts and opinions is one of the most precious rights of women. Given that this liberty ensures the legitimacy of fathers and their children, any female citizen can therefore freely declare I am the mother of your child without a barbarous prejudice, forcing them to hide the truth unless in response to the abuse of this freedom in cases determined by the law.

In a postscript that's longer than the rest of the document, Gucht calls for women to wake up and acknowledge their rights. She contends, quote, Women have done more harm than good constraint and dissimulation have been their lot. What for stole from them, Ru's returned. They had to resort to the power of their charms, and the most irreproachable man could not resist. She then draws parallels between marriage and slavery, ending on the idea that, quote, marriage is the tomb of trust and love.

She also prints a template for what she describes as a social contract between a man and a woman, a union that, unlike marriage, involves a man and a woman coming together in equality and of their own volition.

In the postscript, she also recounts an argument with a coachman who tried to overcharge her. And this is something that she includes as an example of the everyday injustices and indignities that women face. But it also seems enough, like a digression that a lot of time it is left out of English. Translation a lamp.

The Googe had always faced criticism and derision for her writing and her political activism. There were allegations of affairs that were meant to discredit her, along with claims that she was illiterate or a fraud. But when it came to the Declaration of the Rights of Women, what really drew suspicion was her dedication to Marie Antoinette, which reinforced suspicions that she was in fact a monarchist.

And unlike a lot of the other suspicions that swirled around her, this one was actually pretty accurate. In spite of her revolutionary writings and her general support of the French Revolution, OLAP Tegus thought a constitutional monarchy was the system of government that was most suited to the national character of France. But she also thought that the monarch should be a symbolic emblem for France as a nation and should work for the good of its most vulnerable people, not a symbol of power and a tool to carry out the wishes of the aristocracy.

When King Louis the 16th was tried for treason in 1792, a lamp to Googe offered to defend him. Her argument was that he unquestionably had done wrong, but that he had done wrong when he was king by her argument, since France had abolished the monarchy and become a republic incepted. Number of 70 90 to the former king was no longer guilty in the eyes of the republic, the republic could not prosecute someone who was no longer the monarch for something the monarch had done.

Her offer to defend the king, by the way, was not accepted. And he was, of course, executed on January 21st, 1793. We're not suggesting that defense would have worked, but it's kind of a weird pretzel logic. If a little. Yeah, it's like, no, he stopped being the person that you hate when he stopped being king, right?

That's not quite right. So by the time Louis the 16th was executed, tensions had been growing between revolutionaries and counterrevolutionaries and also among different factions within the revolution. For years, the French Revolutionary Wars had also started in 1792, and that had put even more strain on this young republic. The revolution had become increasingly radical and increasingly intolerant of suspected monarchists and counterrevolutionaries. Alem Tegus had been mostly aligned with the revolutionary faction known as the Gerunds. Twenty nine of them had been expelled from the national convention and arrested and then would be executed a few months later.

In the face of all of this tension in July of 1793, douche propose that each Department of France be allowed to govern itself rather than the one unified nation of France that was required by law. And this idea seems to be what finally led to her arrest on July 20th, 1793, not long after the mass arrest of the gendarme. She seems to genuinely believe that if she cooperated, that her writings would demonstrate that she was loyal to France and the revolution and that she would be cleared of all suspicion.

She even took investigators to her office and storage space when they couldn't find any incriminating writing in her home. The materials that they wound up confiscating included an unfinished five act play called France Saved or the Tyrant Throne's.

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As its title suggests, the monarch is dethroned in this play, but it's a sympathetic portrayal of Marie Antoinette was used as evidence and Merita Goosies trial. So was a pamphlet she had written called Three Governments Battle to the Death, which called for the nation of France to make an ultimate choice among monarchy, federalism or Republicanism

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She had also been highly critical of Maximilian Robespierre and of the increasing violence associated with the revolution and the war. On July 25th, 1793, Douche was charged with, quote, having composed a work contrary to the expressed desire of the entire nation and directed against whoever might propose a form of government other than that of a republic one and indivisible. She was incarcerated and she continued writing smuggling pamphlets detailing the conditions there out of her prison. At trial, the judge denied Googe legal representation, so she had to represent herself and different accounts interpret her behavior at court very differently.

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She claimed to be thirty eight, but she was really forty five. She's also described as sighing, smirking or rolling her eyes as the charges were read, either depending on who you're reading, clearly not taking the proceeding seriously or trying to kind of performative embody the idea of innocence.

00:36:20.770

Almost like a character from one of her plays, she was ultimately found in violation of a law that banned the composition or printing of works, that advocated the re-establishment of royalty or the dissolution of the republic, which was punishable by death. She tried to avoid execution by claiming to be pregnant, but a doctor examined her and said that she was not. As is the case with any historical examination of this kind that we talk about on the show, we really don't know what was done, what this doctor did as a test, or whether it would have been able to even detect a pregnancy.

Yeah, I mean. Eventually, it becomes relatively obvious, but in the early stages, who knows, in the early stages, in the 79 days, yes. Anyway, attempted use was executed in Paris on November 3rd, 1793, and her last words were children of the homeland. You will avenge my death.

The word homeland, as she said it in French is laboratory. And that's also translated as both motherland and fatherland, depending on who you're looking at, because the the pottery part comes from the word for father. But life is also a feminine article, so it kind of meshes both of that him to use his son, Pure denounced her during all of this.

And while she did write several letters to him during her imprisonment and her trial, those were all confiscated. She was buried at Madelin Cemetery in Paris, which was later closed and cleared with the skeletal remains being moved to the Paris catacombs. Although and unearthed in July 2020, we talked about the discovery of skeletal remains in the Schappell ATWA, which is a memorial chapel that was built on the site of the former cemetery. So it's possible that the remains of OLAP tegus are in the Paris catacombs, also possible that they could be in these relatively newly unearthed skeletal remains.

In this chapel, Degas continued to be criticized and vilified after her death in ways that questioned her politics, her character and her womanhood. In 1793, French politician Pierre Gestapo's Shlomit wrote, quote, Never forget that virago, the woman man, the impudent Olympiada Googe, who abandon the cares of her household to get involved in politics and commit crimes. She died on the guillotine for having forgotten the virtues that suit her sex.

It really took decades. I mean, even into like the 1990s before people started really viewing Ollanta Gould as a forerunner of the feminist movement and to really seriously study her work. There were calls to have her commemorated at the Pantheon in Paris in 1993 and then again in 2013. The first woman to be interred at the Pantheon was Sophie Badillo, whose husband, chemist and politician Marcella Bertholt, who had died within hours of her passing. The first woman to be interred at the Pantheon based on her own accomplishments was Marie Curie, when that didn't happen until 1995.

Although to Goosh has not been Pantheon sized, a bust of her was installed at the National Assembly in 2016, that doesn't have to use as I said just a second ago, there was not a lot of serious look at her work in her life until roughly the 90s, really.

And I would like to say I still find the available research lacking. There was just not as much of it as I would have liked and not as robust as I would have liked it to be. Do you have robust listener mail?

Yeah, I have two listener mails that are both on the same subject, and so I wanted to touch on both of them. The first one is from Nicole and Nicole sent this on January 10th. Nicole said, hello, I just listened to the Lost Cause episode. Your warning at the beginning about when you recorded the episode and who would know what the world would be like, could not have been more prescient because I, of course, listened to it in the aftermath of the attempted coup.

Your message could not have been more important or needed this week. And I am so grateful for your podcast. You laid out history and a cultural cornerstone and such a clear but also kind way. I have many friends who work at the Capitol and were evacuated or barricaded. I can't help thinking that if more people learn history in the way you taught it, then maybe there wouldn't have been a Confederate flag marched through the Capitol.

I work in politics and have been in Atlanta for the Senate race since July. Moving to a new city during a pandemic when you work 80 hour weeks is very difficult. I cannot be more grateful to have had both of her company as I walked the Beltline alone was also good to know even that there are cool people like you that live or have lived in Atlanta. Thank you for all you do, Nicole. Nicole has a piece about growing up in Seattle and being taught that states rights caused the civil war in middle school.

And then I have another email from Julia. Julia starts off saying, long time listener, first time writer, and then sort of talks about having listened to the whole archive and then winding up with a playlist that's forty nine hours and thirty five minutes long of listening to podcasts and goes on to say, that's the long way to say I'm behind in my podcast listening, which is how I listen to the Lost Cause episode. Last week you prefaced the episode with an explanation that you had no idea how it might land given current events when the episode was released.

While it was released a month ago, it had particular points last week. As I listened, I kept picturing the images from the capital last week. Thank you for the reminder of how we got to this point. I know that the podcast tries not to take a political stance, but this episode helped me recenter on some of the lessons that need to be learned from the events last week. The stories we tell ourselves about our country, our democracy and our history have a real impact that can be helpful both to look at the history, to show us how current events came to pass.

It's also helpful to think about current events in the frame of how it will become history. Julie goes on a little bit from there and talks about the past year being history making and appreciating, knowing that the two of us are in Julias podcast feed.

So Julia also sent dog pictures. Thank you, Julia.

I'm kind of abridging the email just a little bit just because I'm reading two of them. Thank you both. Julia and Nicole, they were similar enough in their themes that I wanted to read both emails and also note that, man, we are in the same. Situation now of like we don't know what's going to happen between when we record this episode on the 12th of January and when it comes out like. We had just come out of the the studio after recording our unearthed episodes and I had decided what I was going to do next.

Then I started working on Olympic issues. In less than 24 hours later, I was glued to the news like, OK, this is bizarre. It feels like this episode about, you know, a woman who was an abolitionist and a campaigner for women's rights. This feels irrelevant somehow because of all this other stuff that's going on. It has been a very confounding and surreal time to be working on this podcast, as we have talked about at other points before in the last year or so.

Yeah, yeah.

It makes us relook at everything we talk about in like, should we publish this now or should we wait? Is this should we wait? What is related to what's going on? But it's unpleasant. And we all had a lot of have been through a lot of unpleasant. Maybe we move it. I don't know, maybe it'll be more unpleasant later.

I never know what's going to happen, especially since we try to always keep at least a week of episodes already done, which really just gives us coverage, like if somebody is ill or the power is out or whatever, like that then means that this time passes between when we record and when the episode comes out. And in the interim, it's like Manber, a million things have happened that made everything seem strange.

So thank you both, Julia and Nicole, for your e-mails on this subject.

And if you would like to write to us about this or any other podcast or a history podcast that I heart radio dot com, and we're also all over social media edmiston in history, that's where you'll find our Facebook, our Twitter, our Pinterest and our Instagram.

I'm going to be candid. I haven't done anything with the Pinterest in a while.

Me either. But it exists. You can also subscribe to our show on the I Heart radio app and Apple podcasts and anywhere else that you get your podcasts.

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